Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 2707289 times)

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5750 on: February 19, 2020, 06:08:55 AM »
I'll take no soul over rotten soul, easier to deal with.

Easier to deal with, but no more trustworthy!

SunnyYellow

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5751 on: February 19, 2020, 06:45:46 AM »
I know I come to this thread only to vent about him and his impact on them and (when I still saw him once a year; no more) on me. I'm sorry about that but don't have anyplace else for that kind of venting.


Please don't apologize for venting about your brother. You're sincerely concerned for him and your parents -- and you're not alone. At least I feel less alone reading your experience.

I have a brother a lot like yours, just an older version. He's in his fifties. He was in his thirties when he quit the last job he held that paid full-time wages and benefits. He refused help from his siblings in getting another, good, job. He's been living with our elderly mother in her rental flat, paying very little rent for a really nice situation and working part-time. Yes, he helps her a little, like with snow-shoveling. Yes, she subsidizes his life, including driving him to his low-paying, no benefits job. He disdains his brothers and sisters, expects us to pay his way, and likes to point out that certain of us "have money." Yeah. Well, we worked for that.

Anyway, you're not the only one wondering what will happen down the road. My mom has already had financial problems, in large part because brother is sapping what was supposed to be her retirement income (the flat's rent is $1000 less for him). She should have sold that house, too. Anyway, we've talked to her and she won't change. We're all kind of wondering what will happen when she passes, which is going to happen someday. He's hinted about moving out my way. Oh dear Lord.

So, yeah. You have company. Feel free to vent!

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5752 on: February 19, 2020, 07:16:06 AM »
We're all kind of wondering what will happen when she passes, which is going to happen someday. He's hinted about moving out my way. Oh dear Lord.

My father has expressed interest multiple times in moving to where we live when his wife's parents pass (which could be anytime at this point). I don't really want to have to tell him that I moved across the country for a reason. Hopefully his job and debt will keep him from being able to make any big moves.

AMandM

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5753 on: February 19, 2020, 11:37:16 AM »
Yeah that tactic works brilliantly - I was once hired as an assistant manager of a store. I spent a whole month cleaning said store. Never picked up a piece of paper, never spoke to a supplier, never once used the till. I don't know what I was supposed to learn. What I did learn was that I wasn't tolerating this ####, so I quit and got a better job.

I can totally see having managers and assistant managers start by doing the underlings' work for a while, so that when they start actual managing they will understand what they're asking the employees to do. But a whole month of nothing but cleaning is way beyond that!

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5754 on: February 19, 2020, 01:32:06 PM »
I was thinking of the assembly line painting robots but with pressure washers... Might be the perfect "new guy" job to do it manually. Want to drive the beasts? Well first you get to wash them for a few months...

Yeah that tactic works brilliantly - I was once hired as an assistant manager of a store. I spent a whole month cleaning said store. Never picked up a piece of paper, never spoke to a supplier, never once used the till. I don't know what I was supposed to learn. What I did learn was that I wasn't tolerating this shit, so I quit and got a better job.

That's how the military did it when I was in. You're the new person? Okay - first you'll be part of the cleaning crew for a period. Or maybe part of the galley crew making and serving food. Once that is all done, then you'll start earning qualifications. Everyone went through it but a person did more of that the lower they were on the pecking order (rank). Its work that had to be done.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5755 on: February 19, 2020, 05:38:52 PM »
I was thinking of the assembly line painting robots but with pressure washers... Might be the perfect "new guy" job to do it manually. Want to drive the beasts? Well first you get to wash them for a few months...

Yeah that tactic works brilliantly - I was once hired as an assistant manager of a store. I spent a whole month cleaning said store. Never picked up a piece of paper, never spoke to a supplier, never once used the till. I don't know what I was supposed to learn. What I did learn was that I wasn't tolerating this shit, so I quit and got a better job.

That's how the military did it when I was in. You're the new person? Okay - first you'll be part of the cleaning crew for a period. Or maybe part of the galley crew making and serving food. Once that is all done, then you'll start earning qualifications. Everyone went through it but a person did more of that the lower they were on the pecking order (rank). Its work that had to be done.


Great. But I wasn't in the military. I have no desire to join the military, and they should count themselves lucky, because I'm not very good at following orders.

dmadill001

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5756 on: February 26, 2020, 07:23:26 AM »
8pm, Brother and Sister in Law about to leave for 2-hour drive home from MILís house after gathering to celebrate a family birthday.
SIL: Ugh Iím going to have to run by Kroger once I get home.
ME: What do you need to get from Kroger that canít wait until tomorrow?
SIL: Well I want to make chicken salad for lunch, and I donít have apples to put in it. I guess I could just click list it. I usually donít like to spend the $5 fee unless Iím getting a few things.
ME (in my head, also whispered to my wife): Why donít you add a catheter and a bedpan, that might make it worth the $5 fee.
MIL: Well I donít like doing the click list nowadays because then I canít get the Woohoo deals.
(MIL regularly brings home unwanted, almost spoiled food she only bought because of the ďwoohoo dealĒ sale price Kroger runs for almost out of date food.)
SIL: I guess the $5 is worth it because if I go in myself, I always end up buying more than $5 worth of stuff I donít need.

Theyíre so close.

RWD

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5757 on: February 26, 2020, 07:42:06 AM »
I didn't even know you were supposed to put apples in chicken salad...

dmadill001

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5758 on: February 26, 2020, 07:51:59 AM »
I didn't even know you were supposed to put apples in chicken salad...

Yeah that confused me as well, but at that point there were other larger questions I was asking

wellactually

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5759 on: February 26, 2020, 08:24:26 AM »
I am in a beta group for Kroger/Gerbes called VIP. I paid $120 last June. What I get from it: free pick-up and delivery on orders over $35, extra 10% off all store brands, $10 back for every $100 spent on store brands.

It has been amazing. I'm not sure if they'll keep the program up, and I'm positive I'm the only VIP in my town, so it's not widespread. But I've been completely spoiled by not having to pay for pick-up. Anyway, sometimes it pays to spend years and years answering surveys and signing up to test and review new products at your favorite grocery store!

I would have expected grapes and celery in the chicken salad, but I could see apples working well instead.

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5760 on: February 26, 2020, 09:42:46 AM »
I didn't even know you were supposed to put apples in chicken salad...

Yeah that confused me as well, but at that point there were other larger questions I was asking

I've seen apples, nuts, and celery in chicken salad. All at the same time. I wasn't a fan, but it seemed popular in the restaurant.

ixtap

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5761 on: February 26, 2020, 09:52:31 AM »
I didn't even know you were supposed to put apples in chicken salad...

Yeah that confused me as well, but at that point there were other larger questions I was asking

I've seen apples, nuts, and celery in chicken salad. All at the same time. I wasn't a fan, but it seemed popular in the restaurant.

With tarragon - YUM!

Maenad

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5762 on: February 26, 2020, 12:08:45 PM »
I have a t-shirt that says "engineers aren't boring people, we just get really excited about boring things". 

I... hadn't really thought of it that way. I guess that explains why sometimes we're the only ones who grok each other.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5763 on: February 26, 2020, 12:27:20 PM »
I use Walmart's pickup, so there's no fee.  But I can definitely see the point about not spending as much when you don't go inside.  I can send my husband to the grocery store to pick up groceries without fearing that he'll come home with $50 worth of beef jerky.

merula

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5764 on: February 26, 2020, 02:51:30 PM »
I use Walmart's pickup, so there's no fee.  But I can definitely see the point about not spending as much when you don't go inside.  I can send my husband to the grocery store to pick up groceries without fearing that he'll come home with $50 worth of beef jerky.

In fairness, that's like two packages of beef jerky these days.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5765 on: February 26, 2020, 03:57:42 PM »
My mom has been using the local grocery stores delivery option, 10$ per order.  Her mobility is not great and getting the bags up the stairs is not easy + the time savings.  On balance it is probably best vs the alternatives she would turn to ie takeout or single meal delivery.  I know she has done costco delivery too on occasion.  There is no way she would pay 10$ to get an apple delivered.

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5766 on: February 26, 2020, 04:37:21 PM »
8pm, Brother and Sister in Law about to leave for 2-hour drive home from MILís house after gathering to celebrate a family birthday.
SIL: Ugh Iím going to have to run by Kroger once I get home.
ME: What do you need to get from Kroger that canít wait until tomorrow?
SIL: Well I want to make chicken salad for lunch, and I donít have apples to put in it. I guess I could just click list it. I usually donít like to spend the $5 fee unless Iím getting a few things.
ME (in my head, also whispered to my wife): Why donít you add a catheter and a bedpan, that might make it worth the $5 fee.
MIL: Well I donít like doing the click list nowadays because then I canít get the Woohoo deals.
(MIL regularly brings home unwanted, almost spoiled food she only bought because of the ďwoohoo dealĒ sale price Kroger runs for almost out of date food.)
SIL: I guess the $5 is worth it because if I go in myself, I always end up buying more than $5 worth of stuff I donít need.

Theyíre so close.

Wait...she isn't willing to exercise enough willpower to run into Kroger for one specific thing and is willing to pay more than the cost of the item itself to have someone else select and package that one thing and bring it outside to her car?

Good lord.

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5767 on: February 26, 2020, 04:38:16 PM »
My mom has been using the local grocery stores delivery option, 10$ per order.  Her mobility is not great and getting the bags up the stairs is not easy + the time savings.  On balance it is probably best vs the alternatives she would turn to ie takeout or single meal delivery.  I know she has done costco delivery too on occasion.  There is no way she would pay 10$ to get an apple delivered.

That is a great use of those services. Safer for her, healthier and cheaper than takeout, even with the service fee.

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5768 on: March 01, 2020, 06:44:22 AM »
A continuation of my father's decisions...

Him (via text): Should I decrease the amount I am putting in my 401k until this drop in market ends?
Me: When it drops is the best time to buy. Stocks are 12% cheaper than they were a week ago.
Him: It sure is dropping
Me: It always goes up over time
Him: I know it will start going up, not worried about that. Just hate to keep giving to a market that looks in panic right now.
Me: That assumes you'll know when the bottom is. What if it bottoms out and starts climbing before your next paycheck even posts? You'll have missed out on the sale.
Me again: You can do what you want. But I would be investing even more if I could right now. Either it rebounds, or stocks continue to be cheaper to buy.
Him: Figured I would just leave it the way it is; just thought I'd see what you think about it.

Hopefully that means that I talked him off any kind of ledge.

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5769 on: March 01, 2020, 11:06:17 AM »
Good work, my friend

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5770 on: March 31, 2020, 10:53:26 AM »
Almost a month without a post in this thread - that just won't do

My 35-year-old BIL's last year (or so):

-Had to sell house that he bought with ex-fiance because he couldn't afford mortgage on his own
-Proceeded to move back in with his parents while he saved up to buy land and build (he has moved in and our of their house since I've been in the family)
-Not paying attention, he drove off the road, resulting in his pickup being totaled
-Received his mom's 2005 Nissan Sentra (I think) when she got a new car
-That car broke down in a month or so (never gave his mom problems)
-He fell down stairs while drunk. No one even knew that he was drinking at the time, and he couldn't even answer questions (due to being so drunk), so his parents took him to the emergency room, thinking he had a concussion.
-Bought a 2016 F150 at a dealership, rather than sticking with cheap vehicle so that he can save that money for the house he plans on building

In other words, my 35-year-old is going to continue to live with his parents for the foreseeable future. He's just one bad decision after another. He had a brain tumor as a teenager, and I think that's a large part of some of his decisions now, as well as why his parents are so patient with him.

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5771 on: March 31, 2020, 11:14:58 AM »
Almost a month without a post in this thread - that just won't do

My 35-year-old BIL's last year (or so):

-Had to sell house that he bought with ex-fiance because he couldn't afford mortgage on his own
-Proceeded to move back in with his parents while he saved up to buy land and build (he has moved in and our of their house since I've been in the family)
-Not paying attention, he drove off the road, resulting in his pickup being totaled
-Received his mom's 2005 Nissan Sentra (I think) when she got a new car
-That car broke down in a month or so (never gave his mom problems)
-He fell down stairs while drunk. No one even knew that he was drinking at the time, and he couldn't even answer questions (due to being so drunk), so his parents took him to the emergency room, thinking he had a concussion.
-Bought a 2016 F150 at a dealership, rather than sticking with cheap vehicle so that he can save that money for the house he plans on building

In other words, my 35-year-old is going to continue to live with his parents for the foreseeable future. He's just one bad decision after another. He had a brain tumor as a teenager, and I think that's a large part of some of his decisions now, as well as why his parents are so patient with him.

Did the brain tumor result in long lasting impairment or damage that impacts judgement and planning? Because if so, he gets a lot of sympathy from me.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5772 on: March 31, 2020, 11:24:58 AM »
I was just going to ask the same thing.
I am friends with someone whose son had a severe concussion when he was a young adult.  At the time no one thought it was as serious as it would be considered today.  Pre-concussion he had a successful stint in the military and a serious girlfriend; post-concussion he was a different person.  He became a chain-smoking loner with intermittent minimum-wage jobs and has been that way for years. 
No way to absolutely tell this was all due to the concussion but it does make you wonder.

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5773 on: March 31, 2020, 11:48:26 AM »
Did the brain tumor result in long lasting impairment or damage that impacts judgement and planning? Because if so, he gets a lot of sympathy from me.

Definitely likely

For the decade or so that I've known him, he's switched from job to job and hobby to hobby pretty regularly. He tends to jump right into new things without thinking.

His mom tries to guide him to make better decisions, which just makes him dig his heels in. His dad goes along with whatever BIL wants to do, content to let BIL make his own mistakes, but BIL never learns from those mistakes.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5774 on: March 31, 2020, 12:16:22 PM »
Almost a month without a post in this thread - that just won't do

My 35-year-old BIL's last year (or so):

-Had to sell house that he bought with ex-fiance because he couldn't afford mortgage on his own
-Proceeded to move back in with his parents while he saved up to buy land and build (he has moved in and our of their house since I've been in the family)
-Not paying attention, he drove off the road, resulting in his pickup being totaled
-Received his mom's 2005 Nissan Sentra (I think) when she got a new car
-That car broke down in a month or so (never gave his mom problems)
-He fell down stairs while drunk. No one even knew that he was drinking at the time, and he couldn't even answer questions (due to being so drunk), so his parents took him to the emergency room, thinking he had a concussion.
-Bought a 2016 F150 at a dealership, rather than sticking with cheap vehicle so that he can save that money for the house he plans on building

In other words, my 35-year-old is going to continue to live with his parents for the foreseeable future. He's just one bad decision after another. He had a brain tumor as a teenager, and I think that's a large part of some of his decisions now, as well as why his parents are so patient with him.

Did the brain tumor result in long lasting impairment or damage that impacts judgement and planning? Because if so, he gets a lot of sympathy from me.

I had a student who was in a serious accident with brain damage.  He lost the ability to foresee medium and long-term consequences.  No impulse control.  Not a good thing in the sciences - not a good thing any time, but especially dangerous in the sciences.

six-car-habit

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5775 on: March 31, 2020, 02:09:34 PM »
Almost a month without a post in this thread - that just won't do

My 35-year-old BIL's last year (or so):

-Had to sell house that he bought with ex-fiance because he couldn't afford mortgage on his own
-Proceeded to move back in with his parents while he saved up to buy land and build (he has moved in and our of their house since I've been in the family)
-Not paying attention, he drove off the road, resulting in his pickup being totaled
-Received his mom's 2005 Nissan Sentra (I think) when she got a new car
-That car broke down in a month or so (never gave his mom problems)
-He fell down stairs while drunk. No one even knew that he was drinking at the time, and he couldn't even answer questions (due to being so drunk), so his parents took him to the emergency room, thinking he had a concussion.
-Bought a 2016 F150 at a dealership, rather than sticking with cheap vehicle so that he can save that money for the house he plans on building

In other words, my 35-year-old is going to continue to live with his parents for the foreseeable future. He's just one bad decision after another. He had a brain tumor as a teenager, and I think that's a large part of some of his decisions now, as well as why his parents are so patient with him.

 BIL = Brother-in-Law ?
 How does your sister [?] affect / deal with all this, or are they divorced, she has passed away, etc ??

rockstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5776 on: March 31, 2020, 02:14:32 PM »
Almost a month without a post in this thread - that just won't do

My 35-year-old BIL's last year (or so):

-Had to sell house that he bought with ex-fiance because he couldn't afford mortgage on his own
-Proceeded to move back in with his parents while he saved up to buy land and build (he has moved in and our of their house since I've been in the family)
-Not paying attention, he drove off the road, resulting in his pickup being totaled
-Received his mom's 2005 Nissan Sentra (I think) when she got a new car
-That car broke down in a month or so (never gave his mom problems)
-He fell down stairs while drunk. No one even knew that he was drinking at the time, and he couldn't even answer questions (due to being so drunk), so his parents took him to the emergency room, thinking he had a concussion.
-Bought a 2016 F150 at a dealership, rather than sticking with cheap vehicle so that he can save that money for the house he plans on building

In other words, my 35-year-old is going to continue to live with his parents for the foreseeable future. He's just one bad decision after another. He had a brain tumor as a teenager, and I think that's a large part of some of his decisions now, as well as why his parents are so patient with him.

 BIL = Brother-in-Law ?
 How does your sister [?] affect / deal with all this, or are they divorced, she has passed away, etc ??
Sounds like itís his wifeís brother to me.

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5777 on: March 31, 2020, 04:02:39 PM »
Almost a month without a post in this thread - that just won't do

My 35-year-old BIL's last year (or so):

-Had to sell house that he bought with ex-fiance because he couldn't afford mortgage on his own
-Proceeded to move back in with his parents while he saved up to buy land and build (he has moved in and our of their house since I've been in the family)
-Not paying attention, he drove off the road, resulting in his pickup being totaled
-Received his mom's 2005 Nissan Sentra (I think) when she got a new car
-That car broke down in a month or so (never gave his mom problems)
-He fell down stairs while drunk. No one even knew that he was drinking at the time, and he couldn't even answer questions (due to being so drunk), so his parents took him to the emergency room, thinking he had a concussion.
-Bought a 2016 F150 at a dealership, rather than sticking with cheap vehicle so that he can save that money for the house he plans on building

In other words, my 35-year-old is going to continue to live with his parents for the foreseeable future. He's just one bad decision after another. He had a brain tumor as a teenager, and I think that's a large part of some of his decisions now, as well as why his parents are so patient with him.

 BIL = Brother-in-Law ?
 How does your sister [?] affect / deal with all this, or are they divorced, she has passed away, etc ??
Sounds like itís his wifeís brother to me.

Yep

MrMoogle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5778 on: April 01, 2020, 09:12:35 AM »
Almost a month without a post in this thread - that just won't do

My 35-year-old BIL's last year (or so):

-Had to sell house that he bought with ex-fiance because he couldn't afford mortgage on his own
-Proceeded to move back in with his parents while he saved up to buy land and build (he has moved in and our of their house since I've been in the family)
-Not paying attention, he drove off the road, resulting in his pickup being totaled
-Received his mom's 2005 Nissan Sentra (I think) when she got a new car
-That car broke down in a month or so (never gave his mom problems)
-He fell down stairs while drunk. No one even knew that he was drinking at the time, and he couldn't even answer questions (due to being so drunk), so his parents took him to the emergency room, thinking he had a concussion.
-Bought a 2016 F150 at a dealership, rather than sticking with cheap vehicle so that he can save that money for the house he plans on building

In other words, my 35-year-old is going to continue to live with his parents for the foreseeable future. He's just one bad decision after another. He had a brain tumor as a teenager, and I think that's a large part of some of his decisions now, as well as why his parents are so patient with him.

Did the brain tumor result in long lasting impairment or damage that impacts judgement and planning? Because if so, he gets a lot of sympathy from me.

I had a student who was in a serious accident with brain damage.  He lost the ability to foresee medium and long-term consequences.  No impulse control.  Not a good thing in the sciences - not a good thing any time, but especially dangerous in the sciences.
I have a cousin who lost her impulse control and decision making ability due to an overdose.  She wasn't very good at making decisions before, but now it's really bad.  It's tough hearing her stories from afar, I can't imagine going through it with someone closer.

saguaro

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5779 on: April 01, 2020, 10:03:18 AM »
I had a student who was in a serious accident with brain damage.  He lost the ability to foresee medium and long-term consequences.  No impulse control.  Not a good thing in the sciences - not a good thing any time, but especially dangerous in the sciences.

This describes a friend of mine who told me of an accident in childhood where he suffered a serious concussion after going down headfirst on his bike.   Went down hard enough that the scars were still apparent years later. Had serious problems with impulse control.  Poor decision making and unable to anticipate any consequences.

ducky19

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5780 on: April 02, 2020, 01:11:22 PM »
My wife's stepsister has grown increasingly erratic over the years (I've known her for the past 20 years). She has a home daycare and was recently cited for high levels of lead in her water (among many other things). It all started making sense that a lot of her behavior may be due to lead poisoning. It's really sad to watch, but no one seems willing to step in and help explain things to her. Thankfully my FIL and his wife have already split her 1/4 of their estate in half to ensure that her daughter gets something, as it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that she will quickly burn through any assets she receives.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5781 on: April 02, 2020, 01:51:04 PM »
Some relatives of mine, an elderly couple, have always been on the spendypants side despite being quite affluent and high-earning. They retired early and are now in their 70s but have saved only a few million, most of which is tied up in commercial real estate. About five years ago they moved out of one McMansion and into another even bigger one, which for a variety of reasons was mortgaged. Anyway, they just got a communication from their commercial tenant that due to COVID-19 the tenant needs a rent reduction to stay in business. The type of commercial tenants they have are "critical" per federal and local guidelines so they are staying open, but not all the locations are doing well. This combined with the stock market crash has them freaking out, but who in their right mind has a mortgage at age 70+? I do worry about this couple. They're a nice couple but not at all savvy financially.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5782 on: April 03, 2020, 09:52:39 AM »
I wonder if the any MMM people tell you that there are advantages to having a mortgage late in life.

We know of an elderly couple who went upscale just as their money got tight in retirement. Nice place they moved to and a good move otherwise b/c it is easier to maneuver around in being one level. Then sickness came for one of them (now partially recovered) and money is even tighter.

No idea if this virus will take the weaker one but we worry about the remaining spouse b/c we're not sure they can afford to stay there by themselves. Might have been better for them to have looked for a real estate deal that didn't cost so much.

DW and I sure wish we were mortgage free right now with the virus uncertainty... Our goal is to be mortgage free before we retire.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5783 on: April 03, 2020, 10:53:12 AM »
I wonder if the any MMM people tell you that there are advantages to having a mortgage late in life.

We know of an elderly couple who went upscale just as their money got tight in retirement. Nice place they moved to and a good move otherwise b/c it is easier to maneuver around in being one level. Then sickness came for one of them (now partially recovered) and money is even tighter.

No idea if this virus will take the weaker one but we worry about the remaining spouse b/c we're not sure they can afford to stay there by themselves. Might have been better for them to have looked for a real estate deal that didn't cost so much.

DW and I sure wish we were mortgage free right now with the virus uncertainty... Our goal is to be mortgage free before we retire.

It's a debate I see quite often, although the pro-mortgage crowd tends to assume that (1) it's possible to use the mortgage for a tax break, which isn't the case everywhere, and (2) it's possible to go back to work and earn more if something happens to the passive income. For an elderly person who truly can't replace the income, it doesn't seem reasonable to me to have a mortgage on one's residence late in life. Even the tax breaks, when they exist, depend wholely on the whims of politicians. It sure isn't working out well for that elderly couple in my family.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5784 on: April 03, 2020, 01:18:18 PM »
The unknowns ought to weigh heavily in people's calculus. Sickness, plagues, Great Recessions... Twelve months ago I never would have thought a "world shutdown" possible in our lifetimes. We still have our incomes but what if we had different jobs?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5785 on: April 03, 2020, 02:53:54 PM »
I'm 62, my wife is 73.   We now have TWO mortgages, one on our new home and one on our old, not-yet-sold one.

We priced in the mortgage on the old home into our FIRE plans for the next 12 years after we retired.   We had lots of safety margins built into our plan so we didn't have any worry about the mortgage on the old house.

I just went on social security in January.   The new SS income is about $2500 less than the new mortgage and I was paying about half that extra on the old mortgage.  So, realistically, it will cost us an extra $4,000 a year if we include utilities, and less that the first year.   
And, of course, once the old house sells, we'll be able to put a goodly amount onto the new mortgage or buy stock, whichever seems the best choice at the time, and we'll be almost $20,000 in stable income ahead of where we were at the end of last year.

We only owe about $141k on the old house and it should have sold for between $260k and $300k.   So, even if we sold it for cost just to ditch the utilities and mortgage, we would still be better off this year than last in terms of income.

Or we could rent it for enough to cover the non-equity portion of the mortgage and a bit, so that it lowered our cost basis while the market was low and preserved our equity in the house until times were better.   

So, for us, it makes sense even in these troubled times.   

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5786 on: April 04, 2020, 12:12:28 PM »
I wonder if the any MMM people tell you that there are advantages to having a mortgage late in life.

We know of an elderly couple who went upscale just as their money got tight in retirement. Nice place they moved to and a good move otherwise b/c it is easier to maneuver around in being one level. Then sickness came for one of them (now partially recovered) and money is even tighter.

No idea if this virus will take the weaker one but we worry about the remaining spouse b/c we're not sure they can afford to stay there by themselves. Might have been better for them to have looked for a real estate deal that didn't cost so much.

DW and I sure wish we were mortgage free right now with the virus uncertainty... Our goal is to be mortgage free before we retire.

At the heart of this, wouldn't it essentially be the "rent versus buy" decision? 

 If they could find the same place, to rent, for the same or less money (total), then rent.   If they could not find ANY rentals that met basic needs (single floor, ability to install handrails for safety, close to shops, doctors, exercise opportunities), and were to likely stay for 5-10 years then the mortgage route could make sense, assuming they had their "leave" plans in place for various scenarios.

If so, then the only variable about being "retired" is the impact that aging has on the ability to leave a place.  This could sway them in favor of long term buying versus renting as no landlord to surprise you with a move out notice, you have the ability to reverse mortgage or get a renter and stay in place despite income issues, or conversely, age could sway them to rent because it is easier to leave if health changes, and protect remaining assets.

Most likely, they are falling into the YOLO trap of wanting to live in a place they love because YOLO, and when you are older, if not now, then when?  Which, honestly, is a pretty strong argument even with its dangers.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5787 on: April 05, 2020, 05:21:49 PM »
My mother seems to be running low on cash.  She won't talk specifics with me or my brother.  She's 61, four years from some nice government cash.

She lives in a 3 bedroom house and unscrews the CFL bulbs to save energy.  I'm trying to get her to downsize since her mortgage is almost paid off.  If she would only position herself to be mortgage free she'd have a much better time with her cashflow.  She works odd jobs here and there and hasn't been saving money for her taxes owing.  Deferred everything as soon as she could with the COVID situation.

Really hard to watch someone maintain their stubbornness when their position could be so much better.

Hopefully when the cats pass on she will move into a duplex/townhouse(or sooner).  I'm laying the groundwork for this conversation to anticipate the inevitable begging for money.

The crazy thing is--she's otherwise pretty good with money.  Doesn't buy useless stuff, doesn't carry debt, but she has this horrible anxiety towards change.  It took me years to get her to retire her old Buick that was nickel and diming her. 

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5788 on: April 05, 2020, 07:07:35 PM »
So today my husband was on the phone with his brother and they were talking about what is happening in the world right now. We own a bit of acreage in the middle of nowhere and my BIL said to my husband "please don't get rid of it, it's where we're all planning on living when Shit hits the fan. Yeah, we're everyone's backup plan. They've made fun of us for years. We've no debt, we have a huge garden, we can and freeze shit. We are by no means preppers but all of a sudden they're realizing that we have value.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5789 on: April 05, 2020, 07:58:50 PM »
We are retired at 65 and 8 years ago downsized to a single story 1400 sq ft house in town with a low maintenance yard. Our mortgage including taxes and insurance is 477. No desire to pay it off. It would rent for 2k/month. We are not opposed to moving to a small condo if necessary. We are realistic.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5790 on: April 06, 2020, 07:52:29 AM »
We are retired at 65 and 8 years ago downsized to a single story 1400 sq ft house in town with a low maintenance yard. Our mortgage including taxes and insurance is 477. No desire to pay it off. It would rent for 2k/month. We are not opposed to moving to a small condo if necessary. We are realistic.
Smart!

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5791 on: April 06, 2020, 12:08:53 PM »
My mother seems to be running low on cash.  She won't talk specifics with me or my brother.  She's 61, four years from some nice government cash.

She lives in a 3 bedroom house and unscrews the CFL bulbs to save energy.  I'm trying to get her to downsize since her mortgage is almost paid off.  If she would only position herself to be mortgage free she'd have a much better time with her cashflow.  She works odd jobs here and there and hasn't been saving money for her taxes owing.  Deferred everything as soon as she could with the COVID situation.

Really hard to watch someone maintain their stubbornness when their position could be so much better.

Hopefully when the cats pass on she will move into a duplex/townhouse(or sooner).  I'm laying the groundwork for this conversation to anticipate the inevitable begging for money.

The crazy thing is--she's otherwise pretty good with money.  Doesn't buy useless stuff, doesn't carry debt, but she has this horrible anxiety towards change.  It took me years to get her to retire her old Buick that was nickel and diming her.

Is she running low on cash, or is her anxiety making her fear she is? Because if she won't talk specifics, there really is no way to tell which it is. Anxiety, if it's clinical level, is not necessarily going to just stick to the same old thing. Especially given the current environment, she might be spiraling.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5792 on: April 06, 2020, 02:11:54 PM »
My mother seems to be running low on cash.  She won't talk specifics with me or my brother.  She's 61, four years from some nice government cash.

She lives in a 3 bedroom house and unscrews the CFL bulbs to save energy.  I'm trying to get her to downsize since her mortgage is almost paid off.  If she would only position herself to be mortgage free she'd have a much better time with her cashflow.  She works odd jobs here and there and hasn't been saving money for her taxes owing.  Deferred everything as soon as she could with the COVID situation.

Really hard to watch someone maintain their stubbornness when their position could be so much better.

Hopefully when the cats pass on she will move into a duplex/townhouse(or sooner).  I'm laying the groundwork for this conversation to anticipate the inevitable begging for money.

The crazy thing is--she's otherwise pretty good with money.  Doesn't buy useless stuff, doesn't carry debt, but she has this horrible anxiety towards change.  It took me years to get her to retire her old Buick that was nickel and diming her.

Is she running low on cash, or is her anxiety making her fear she is? Because if she won't talk specifics, there really is no way to tell which it is. Anxiety, if it's clinical level, is not necessarily going to just stick to the same old thing. Especially given the current environment, she might be spiraling.

I don't know.  She doesn't budget.  She got hit with a big tax bill this year and I think that's where her anxiety is coming from.  Her mortgage payments and taxes/utilities probably don't help.  Plus the occasional car trouble/computer trouble.  She's just always behind the eight ball it seems, and doesn't really plan ahead.  I know she has some mutual funds and my uncle cuts her a cheque every year for some land use for farming.  Since she doesn't really paint a clear picture of her finances I don't think SHE even knows if she's running out of money.

She's always been anxious.  It's not a new thing.  I don't know that she has ever "spiraled".  She's just mostly very avoidant.  Luckily she was approved for the CERB benefit in Canada which provides $2k a month for the next four months.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5793 on: April 06, 2020, 02:58:22 PM »
On the phone with my 55 y.o. father yesterday:

Him: I got a new truck! Well, new-to-me truck. It's a 2015 Sierra
Me: I'm glad you went down the used route. What was wrong with your old vehicle?
Him: It started having some mechanical issues, so I decided to get a new one rather than deal with the hassle.
Me: ...
Him: We just paid off my wife's car in November, so all we did was trade a payment for a payment.
Me: O...kay? How long is the loan?
Him: 72 months. Our only debts now are the truck, the mortgage, and a home improvement loan (rolled into mortgage).
Me: I guess that's not too bad.
Him: Oh, and the 401(k) loan I took out to pay off the credit cards last year, but that's almost paid off.

Follow up!

Him: Did I tell you I got a new motorcycle?
Me: No...Didn't you just get a truck a couple weeks ago?
My wife overhearing: Be nice
Him: Yeah
Me: And aren't you also planning to get an RV?
Him: We're not getting the RV anytime soon. That's more of a retirement plan.
Me: And when is that going to be?
Him: Well, one of my co-workers is still working at 69, and I think I'll have him beat.

That means my father, who is a truck driver for an oil company, plans to be working for another 14 years at a minimum. As such, I should in fact retire before my own father. He went on to say that he makes about $115k per year, which is more than our household income, and he lives in an extremely low cost of living area.

During our weekly phone call last night, I learned that he expects to be reduced to a 40 hour limit, which would effectively reduce his pay by half. He's already looking into getting a deferment on his truck loan.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5794 on: April 07, 2020, 11:01:31 AM »
During our weekly phone call last night, I learned that he expects to be reduced to a 40 hour limit, which would effectively reduce his pay by half. He's already looking into getting a deferment on his truck loan.

I hope this super-low oil price ends soon for his sake, for my many friends in the oil field and the country as well.  (not that higher oil prices will help the US economy but that an improved US economy can increase demand for oil and thus higher prices). 

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5795 on: April 07, 2020, 12:13:56 PM »
My mother seems to be running low on cash.  She won't talk specifics with me or my brother.  She's 61, four years from some nice government cash.

She lives in a 3 bedroom house and unscrews the CFL bulbs to save energy.  I'm trying to get her to downsize since her mortgage is almost paid off.  If she would only position herself to be mortgage free she'd have a much better time with her cashflow.  She works odd jobs here and there and hasn't been saving money for her taxes owing.  Deferred everything as soon as she could with the COVID situation.

Really hard to watch someone maintain their stubbornness when their position could be so much better.

Hopefully when the cats pass on she will move into a duplex/townhouse(or sooner).  I'm laying the groundwork for this conversation to anticipate the inevitable begging for money.

The crazy thing is--she's otherwise pretty good with money.  Doesn't buy useless stuff, doesn't carry debt, but she has this horrible anxiety towards change.  It took me years to get her to retire her old Buick that was nickel and diming her.

Is she running low on cash, or is her anxiety making her fear she is? Because if she won't talk specifics, there really is no way to tell which it is. Anxiety, if it's clinical level, is not necessarily going to just stick to the same old thing. Especially given the current environment, she might be spiraling.

I don't know.  She doesn't budget.  She got hit with a big tax bill this year and I think that's where her anxiety is coming from.  Her mortgage payments and taxes/utilities probably don't help.  Plus the occasional car trouble/computer trouble.  She's just always behind the eight ball it seems, and doesn't really plan ahead.  I know she has some mutual funds and my uncle cuts her a cheque every year for some land use for farming.  Since she doesn't really paint a clear picture of her finances I don't think SHE even knows if she's running out of money.

She's always been anxious.  It's not a new thing.  I don't know that she has ever "spiraled".  She's just mostly very avoidant.  Luckily she was approved for the CERB benefit in Canada which provides $2k a month for the next four months.

That's rough. I would keep an eye on her as best you can, the stress of the pandemic is pushing people who are normally stable/functional but have some minor issues over the edge into a bigger problem.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5796 on: April 07, 2020, 07:43:54 PM »
... the stress of the pandemic is pushing people who are normally stable/functional but have some minor issues over the edge into a bigger problem.

Spot on.  The president of a group I volunteer for has largely forgotten what the group and the board actually do, in the rush of dumping boluses of unsnopsed internet drivel about Covid-19 onto us.  I guess tactfully one says it has 'touched a nerve,' but what it really seems is that he is grasping at this to keep from disintegrating or is gratifying some self-ideal of 'leadership.' 

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5797 on: April 07, 2020, 08:35:55 PM »
... the stress of the pandemic is pushing people who are normally stable/functional but have some minor issues over the edge into a bigger problem.

Spot on.  The president of a group I volunteer for has largely forgotten what the group and the board actually do, in the rush of dumping boluses of unsnopsed internet drivel about Covid-19 onto us.  I guess tactfully one says it has 'touched a nerve,' but what it really seems is that he is grasping at this to keep from disintegrating or is gratifying some self-ideal of 'leadership.'

ďBoluses of unsnoped drivel...Ē is such a fabulous phrase! Love it!

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5798 on: April 13, 2020, 06:14:29 AM »
I was in a big group call with a particular branch of my family recently, and during the chit-chat someone mentioned they were hoping things improve soon ďso we can get back into equities.Ē From further context, it sounds like a bunch of them sold everything and went into fixed-income, probably on the advice of the one cousin who is a professional investment manager.

 Of course, there are investing strategies other than buy-and-hold, and itís certainly possible that theyíll beat the market, but thereís already been a big jump from the bottom... if they sold out in Feb or early March, theyíre sitting pretty for the moment, but later than that and itís looking like trouble. I kinda wanted to start asking questions, but then I reminded myself that these people have more money than Iíll ever see and theyíll be doing just fine no matter what, so I held my tongue.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5799 on: April 15, 2020, 07:59:00 PM »
I wonder if the any MMM people tell you that there are advantages to having a mortgage late in life.

We know of an elderly couple who went upscale just as their money got tight in retirement. Nice place they moved to and a good move otherwise b/c it is easier to maneuver around in being one level. Then sickness came for one of them (now partially recovered) and money is even tighter.

No idea if this virus will take the weaker one but we worry about the remaining spouse b/c we're not sure they can afford to stay there by themselves. Might have been better for them to have looked for a real estate deal that didn't cost so much.

DW and I sure wish we were mortgage free right now with the virus uncertainty... Our goal is to be mortgage free before we retire.

At the heart of this, wouldn't it essentially be the "rent versus buy" decision? 

 If they could find the same place, to rent, for the same or less money (total), then rent.   If they could not find ANY rentals that met basic needs (single floor, ability to install handrails for safety, close to shops, doctors, exercise opportunities), and were to likely stay for 5-10 years then the mortgage route could make sense, assuming they had their "leave" plans in place for various scenarios.

If so, then the only variable about being "retired" is the impact that aging has on the ability to leave a place.  This could sway them in favor of long term buying versus renting as no landlord to surprise you with a move out notice, you have the ability to reverse mortgage or get a renter and stay in place despite income issues, or conversely, age could sway them to rent because it is easier to leave if health changes, and protect remaining assets.

Most likely, they are falling into the YOLO trap of wanting to live in a place they love because YOLO, and when you are older, if not now, then when?  Which, honestly, is a pretty strong argument even with its dangers.

Your exactly right. We're concerned about them spending down their savings b/c they went too far upscale and then later one or both of them will need living assistance and won't have the $$$ to afford something comfortable. They have always been spenders as long as we've known them.