Relatives who just don't get it

[Just Joe]

I have siblings with professional backgrounds and good educations. All of my relatives look at them like they are the ones who are well off. I can understand why, but only if they were outsiders who didn't know so much more about all of us.

My siblings stayed home until over the age of 25. I left at 21. I host holidays at my home, and they don't have the space in their apartments. We all have kids, yada yada yada.

What they see is that I went to college later, and then they probably told their own kids "Fella From Stella" isn't going to have a very good life. He has kids and no college degree. Then, BAM, motherfuckers! I gots mine degree. And a house. And all that other stuff.

I also went a non-traditional path after high school to the military before university. Outspoken relatives seemed to assume I wouldn't amount to much. Many years later we're doing just fine.

Our kids are likely going to repeat that non-traditional path. Tough on a kid who is being told there is more or less one path forward and said kid can't fit into that path all neat and tidy and happy.

Probably some element of wanting a little family prestige - university and career. Well dammit, I'm an engineer and I worked my tail off to get where I am at. ;) 

Our kids will find their ways too. What's is important is that they are happy where they land in the end.

[Zikoris]

They also tend to have a different definition of poverty, and they would rather be in "poverty" in a crowded multi-family household than live a "cold sterile and lonely" western lifestyle. 

Your census link looks at a $25,000 poverty line.  A lot of people aim to FIRE and live on less than that, on purpose.

If people are happy with their living conditions then more power to them. However FIREing on $25k / year with a paid-off house, paid-off cars, all the leisure time in the world to solve problems and fix things, and having a million bucks worth of emergency money to fall back on is a VERY different situation than making $25k while working full time, renting, not having a car, and having credit card debt.

FIRE income is just not comparable to poverty income. They're completely different things.

Eh, that's debatable - we spend about 27-28K living in a major city, both working full time, renting, with no car, and that includes close to 10K of international travel to Europe and Asia every year. We don't have credit card debt, though I think our travel spending more than makes up for that. We intend to FIRE with the same spending level, as for us that translates into an extremely comfortable lifestyle.

[bluebelle]

They also tend to have a different definition of poverty, and they would rather be in "poverty" in a crowded multi-family household than live a "cold sterile and lonely" western lifestyle. 

Your census link looks at a $25,000 poverty line.  A lot of people aim to FIRE and live on less than that, on purpose.

If people are happy with their living conditions then more power to them. However FIREing on $25k / year with a paid-off house, paid-off cars, all the leisure time in the world to solve problems and fix things, and having a million bucks worth of emergency money to fall back on is a VERY different situation than making $25k while working full time, renting, not having a car, and having credit card debt.

FIRE income is just not comparable to poverty income. They're completely different things.

Eh, that's debatable - we spend about 27-28K living in a major city, both working full time, renting, with no car, and that includes close to 10K of international travel to Europe and Asia every year. We don't have credit card debt, though I think our travel spending more than makes up for that. We intend to FIRE with the same spending level, as for us that translates into an extremely comfortable lifestyle.

You must have very cheap rent, I've always heard that Vancouver housing market is horrendous, and presumed rent was at least as expensive as Toronto, if not more.   If $27-28K includes 10K of travel, you're saying you live on $17-18K a year INCLUDING rent, if that's true, you're crushing it in way I didn't think possible.    I would have assumed your rent would be $10-18K a year (833-1500/mth)

[magnet18]

Could be because the other spouse found someone they truly loved instead

You seem to be implying one or more of the following things:
Their marriages don't involve "true love"
these are all arranged marriages, and arranged marriages don't involve "true love"

Either of which would be incredibly ignorant, ethnocentric, and straight up offensive

All that stuff is in your head, not mine.   

Aight, I'll cool my jets then

I'm in the US as well, but I used to have similar thoughts to a lot of the things you and others have said until DW spent a lot of time with immigrant students, both adults and children

One common misconception is that the marriages are for cultural reasons and lacking in emotion and the wives, at best, have the bland life of a live in housemaid while husband's run around, which couldn't be further from the truth

[Just Joe]

Anecdotally we have seen a 50/50 split. Some marriages work and then there is a colleague who didn't even have alot of say in who he married. His parents picked her for him. He married her and then sent her home to India so she could be with his or her family. He couldn't even warm up to her as a friend let alone a wife. 

[A Fella from Stella]

I have siblings with professional backgrounds and good educations. All of my relatives look at them like they are the ones who are well off. I can understand why, but only if they were outsiders who didn't know so much more about all of us.

My siblings stayed home until over the age of 25. I left at 21. I host holidays at my home, and they don't have the space in their apartments. We all have kids, yada yada yada.

What they see is that I went to college later, and then they probably told their own kids "Fella From Stella" isn't going to have a very good life. He has kids and no college degree. Then, BAM, motherfuckers! I gots mine degree. And a house. And all that other stuff.

I also went a non-traditional path after high school to the military before university. Outspoken relatives seemed to assume I wouldn't amount to much. Many years later we're doing just fine.

Our kids are likely going to repeat that non-traditional path. Tough on a kid who is being told there is more or less one path forward and said kid can't fit into that path all neat and tidy and happy.

Probably some element of wanting a little family prestige - university and career. Well dammit, I'm an engineer and I worked my tail off to get where I am at. ;) 

Our kids will find their ways too. What's is important is that they are happy where they land in the end.

So awesome about your career. Obviously, getting the journalism degree on student loans would have been better than an engineering one under the GI Bill, but hey, you live and learn, ama-right

I'm a fan of the non-traditional path. My kids are in a high school where they learn a trade half the day. I'm talking to the oldest about doing a year of community service/working before going to college. She's open to it.

But it's tough because some of her friends give off this vibe like they're better [off] than she is because they're going away to university. Where we live, it's like everyone has to go to college at 18. It's really not the right path for everyone, at least not at 18.

[Zikoris]

They also tend to have a different definition of poverty, and they would rather be in "poverty" in a crowded multi-family household than live a "cold sterile and lonely" western lifestyle. 

Your census link looks at a $25,000 poverty line.  A lot of people aim to FIRE and live on less than that, on purpose.

If people are happy with their living conditions then more power to them. However FIREing on $25k / year with a paid-off house, paid-off cars, all the leisure time in the world to solve problems and fix things, and having a million bucks worth of emergency money to fall back on is a VERY different situation than making $25k while working full time, renting, not having a car, and having credit card debt.

FIRE income is just not comparable to poverty income. They're completely different things.

Eh, that's debatable - we spend about 27-28K living in a major city, both working full time, renting, with no car, and that includes close to 10K of international travel to Europe and Asia every year. We don't have credit card debt, though I think our travel spending more than makes up for that. We intend to FIRE with the same spending level, as for us that translates into an extremely comfortable lifestyle.

You must have very cheap rent, I've always heard that Vancouver housing market is horrendous, and presumed rent was at least as expensive as Toronto, if not more.   If $27-28K includes 10K of travel, you're saying you live on $17-18K a year INCLUDING rent, if that's true, you're crushing it in way I didn't think possible.    I would have assumed your rent would be $10-18K a year (833-15/mth)

There are cheap housing options literally everywhere. Being like "Welp, guess this is just what X costs, so I'll pay that" is a guaranteed method to get ripped off on everything. Different cities have different options, but I guarantee you in any city there are frugal people killing it.

[OtherJen]

They also tend to have a different definition of poverty, and they would rather be in "poverty" in a crowded multi-family household than live a "cold sterile and lonely" western lifestyle. 

Your census link looks at a $25,000 poverty line.  A lot of people aim to FIRE and live on less than that, on purpose.

If people are happy with their living conditions then more power to them. However FIREing on $25k / year with a paid-off house, paid-off cars, all the leisure time in the world to solve problems and fix things, and having a million bucks worth of emergency money to fall back on is a VERY different situation than making $25k while working full time, renting, not having a car, and having credit card debt.

FIRE income is just not comparable to poverty income. They're completely different things.

Eh, that's debatable - we spend about 27-28K living in a major city, both working full time, renting, with no car, and that includes close to 10K of international travel to Europe and Asia every year. We don't have credit card debt, though I think our travel spending more than makes up for that. We intend to FIRE with the same spending level, as for us that translates into an extremely comfortable lifestyle.

Didn't you say elsewhere that your annual household income is much higher than that (i.e., not poverty income)? You may be spending near the poverty level but you have significant savings. Your situation is awesome and inspiring, but also different from that of someone who makes $25K per year and has no choice but to live on that, regardless of whatever shit hits the fan. Psychologically, having a cushion for emergencies makes a big difference.

[Zikoris]

They also tend to have a different definition of poverty, and they would rather be in "poverty" in a crowded multi-family household than live a "cold sterile and lonely" western lifestyle. 

Your census link looks at a $25,000 poverty line.  A lot of people aim to FIRE and live on less than that, on purpose.

If people are happy with their living conditions then more power to them. However FIREing on $25k / year with a paid-off house, paid-off cars, all the leisure time in the world to solve problems and fix things, and having a million bucks worth of emergency money to fall back on is a VERY different situation than making $25k while working full time, renting, not having a car, and having credit card debt.

FIRE income is just not comparable to poverty income. They're completely different things.

Eh, that's debatable - we spend about 27-28K living in a major city, both working full time, renting, with no car, and that includes close to 10K of international travel to Europe and Asia every year. We don't have credit card debt, though I think our travel spending more than makes up for that. We intend to FIRE with the same spending level, as for us that translates into an extremely comfortable lifestyle.

Didn't you say elsewhere that your annual household income is much higher than that (i.e., not poverty income)? You may be spending near the poverty level but you have significant savings. Your situation is awesome and inspiring, but also different from that of someone who makes $25K per year and has no choice but to live on that, regardless of whatever shit hits the fan. Psychologically, having a cushion for emergencies makes a big difference.

Yes, we make much more than that. But I'm saying that even at that level, a person can be pretty comfortable if they're frugal. Like, lets say we only made 25K - take out only our international vacations but leave all our other spending the same, and you've already got a surplus of 7K/year to cover emergencies + some savings, and that's not even touching anything else like our video game spending, movies, concerts, hobbies, etc. And I actually have lived on those types of incomes - my first year living independently in Vancouver I made about 14K income, and while it wasn't the lap of luxury, it was fine - I had housing, food, basics, and a bit leftover for hobbies and some savings.

[Goldielocks]

Yeah, my daughter's BF makes about $1400 a month, pays for a room and his food / utilities, and thinks it is great.  He works part time at McDonalds, lives in the greater vancouver area.

He has a cheap phone, did not even add cell service to it, just wifi for the longest time, and has a one zone transit pass.   He spends money on a couple of reasonable date nights a month, magic cards, and steam video games...  DD has to instruct him to replace clothes by going to the thrift store... big purchases are things like replacement headphones.

He seems very happy.

[Cassie]

Zig, I could be wrong but don’t you have cheaper rent than many?

[Zikoris]

Zig, I could be wrong but don’t you have cheaper rent than many?

Yes, but that's not an accident. I have cheaper everything than almost anyone. You don't save 65% on average income by paying normal prices for stuff.

[Just Joe]

Obviously, getting the journalism degree on student loans would have been better than an engineering one under the GI Bill, but hey, you live and learn, ama-right

I'm a fan of the non-traditional path. My kids are in a high school where they learn a trade half the day. I'm talking to the oldest about doing a year of community service/working before going to college. She's open to it.

But it's tough because some of her friends give off this vibe like they're better [off] than she is because they're going away to university. Where we live, it's like everyone has to go to college at 18. It's really not the right path for everyone, at least not at 18.

Yep - our eldest did a similar path as your daughter with HS vocational classes and friends here gave eldest the same vibe as your daughter got.

Fortunately eldest was wise enough to recognize that college money at that point in time would be waste as the eldest isn't ready for college. Is signed up for a state vocational school now. The school has a waiting list. We can afford to send eldest to a nearby state university later if that becomes a goal for eldest.

Live and learn: absolutely. Very happy with life's outcome but I definitely made some inefficient choices along the way aka mistakes. Should have far more money saved up and closer to retirement. We will still retire at ~60 with a comfortable situation.

[By the River]

Obviously, getting the journalism degree on student loans would have been better than an engineering one under the GI Bill, but hey, you live and learn, ama-right

I'm a fan of the non-traditional path. My kids are in a high school where they learn a trade half the day. I'm talking to the oldest about doing a year of community service/working before going to college. She's open to it.

But it's tough because some of her friends give off this vibe like they're better [off] than she is because they're going away to university. Where we live, it's like everyone has to go to college at 18. It's really not the right path for everyone, at least not at 18.

Yep - our eldest did a similar path as your daughter with HS vocational classes and friends here gave eldest the same vibe as your daughter got.

Fortunately eldest was wise enough to recognize that college money at that point in time would be waste as the eldest isn't ready for college. Is signed up for a state vocational school now. The school has a waiting list. We can afford to send eldest to a nearby state university later if that becomes a goal for eldest.

Live and learn: absolutely. Very happy with life's outcome but I definitely made some inefficient choices along the way aka mistakes. Should have far more money saved up and closer to retirement. We will still retire at ~60 with a comfortable situation.

My son graduated from a "prestigious" high school where everyone was expected to attend college.  The graduation program listed the kids' college choices.  One was listed as "gap year"  I asked my son about that and he replied "X isn't going to college, his grandparents own a large B&B.  He is going to work there for a couple of years and then the grandparents will retire and he will take over"   The school just couldn't write "no college"   

[Just Joe]

Maybe the school thought they were doing the graduate a favor. Not going to college - the horror of it!!!

[LadyMuMu]

What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

[By the River]

What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services. 

[Raenia]

What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services.

So, purposefully lying to keep their stats up.  Lovely.

[Davnasty]

What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services.

So, purposefully lying to keep their stats up.  Lovely.

Stats that encourage tunnel vision toward a life that's not for everyone. Even better.

[AlanStache]

What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services.

So, purposefully lying to keep their stats up.  Lovely.

Explaining outliers can be a pia and take up to time/audience bandwidth better spent on other things. 

"100% of our graduates go to college"
vs
"95% of our graduates go to college; those 5% tend to go into family business, the peace corp, had bad problems with family and need to find there own path, then sometimes young adults just dont want to go into higher ed..."

100% and 95% are in this context very nearly the same but the 95% needs explanation...

Not that lying is good or we should be perpetuating the system where all young adults NEED to go to college...

[LadyMuMu]

Next year, 100% of our graduates are going to college, public or military service, or directly into the workforce. First rule of PR is to focus attention on what you want them to see, not report what they want to hear.

[Nederstash]

I know I've posted about my brother before. I love him, I do, but I want to slap him sometimes... PSA: if you have borrowed big sums of money from your retired aging parents, PAY IT BACK. Don't spend it on flashy cars and expensive holidays while my parents keep having to be frugal after a lifetime of hard work. Ugh.
 
I know it's none of my business, it's squarely between them, but it does piss me off.

[bluebelle]

I know I've posted about my brother before. I love him, I do, but I want to slap him sometimes... PSA: if you have borrowed big sums of money from your retired aging parents, PAY IT BACK. Don't spend it on flashy cars and expensive holidays while my parents keep having to be frugal after a lifetime of hard work. Ugh.
 
I know it's none of my business, it's squarely between them, but it does piss me off.

It's sad how many grown-ass "children" think it's okay to spend their parents money.   Even if you're going to eventually inherit it, it's not yours yet.

[mm1970]

What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services.

Ah, memories.  When I graduated from college, our department sent out a braggy letter about the % of students going to graduate school, the average starting salary of those getting jobs, and "other", like military service. (aka me, and one other guy).  Yeah, I'm an "other".  I guess a starting salary of $19k wasn't anything to brag about, ha!  They didn't want me to bring their numbers down (avg salary at that point was $40k, early 1990s).

[saguaro]

I know I've posted about my brother before. I love him, I do, but I want to slap him sometimes... PSA: if you have borrowed big sums of money from your retired aging parents, PAY IT BACK. Don't spend it on flashy cars and expensive holidays while my parents keep having to be frugal after a lifetime of hard work. Ugh.
 
I know it's none of my business, it's squarely between them, but it does piss me off.

It's sad how many grown-ass "children" think it's okay to spend their parents money.   Even if you're going to eventually inherit it, it's not yours yet.

My SIL and niece, her daughter, have constantly gotten money off MIL and FIL for years.   These are not loans, it's full-on EOC.   It's been especially bad since MIL and FIL have gotten sizeable inheritances from both sets of parents and allowed themselves to become the family ATM, SIL has worked them like a pro.   Now if there were some issues like illness, disability, unemployment or some other misfortune going on, I would understand it as supporting through hard times but it is not and never has been the case.  They just want things and have no quibbles about taking from two retired people who are becoming increasingly frail.  At least MIL and FIL are finally saying no out of concern for having enough to fund any assisted living or care.   They still may be OK however DH and I have no idea what their financial picture is.   We have stayed out of that business but MIL has let slip enough about it over the years that it does piss DH off. 

[Tasse]

After much futile searching, I must ask: what does EOC stand for?

[SwordGuy]

After much futile searching, I must ask: what does EOC stand for?

Economic Outpatient Care.   It's a term from the book "The Millionaire Next Door."     It means someone (but not them) is funding part of their lifestyle.

[onehair]

Yay the thread is still here though I am not too cheery just yet: As I put in a previous message on the general thread I am now working 2 jobs due to my SO and his irresponsible habits.  So the 2nd job is at McDonalds I am planning to leave it once I get my savings back to where they were before this latest debacle.  Anyway a few weeks ago after I catch up the rent and bills (and before you ask I don't give him a dime) he comes to me with his latest scheme: He wants me to cosign with him on a $7000 loan he thinks he can get and he will pay it once he gets his Social Security.  Bear in mind he ran through his TSP and still has the carnote plus back taxes to resolve.  I asked who would pay it until your SS kicks in?  I got a blank stare so then I refused on the grounds that I am repaying a loan as it is and also carrying the household.  He still gets a pension but it is being garnished by the Feds for back state taxes.  I figured out the person in need of Economic Life Support is...me. 

[Sibley]

Yay the thread is still here though I am not too cheery just yet: As I put in a previous message on the general thread I am now working 2 jobs due to my SO and his irresponsible habits.  So the 2nd job is at McDonalds I am planning to leave it once I get my savings back to where they were before this latest debacle.  Anyway a few weeks ago after I catch up the rent and bills (and before you ask I don't give him a dime) he comes to me with his latest scheme: He wants me to cosign with him on a $7000 loan he thinks he can get and he will pay it once he gets his Social Security.  Bear in mind he ran through his TSP and still has the carnote plus back taxes to resolve.  I asked who would pay it until your SS kicks in?  I got a blank stare so then I refused on the grounds that I am repaying a loan as it is and also carrying the household.  He still gets a pension but it is being garnished by the Feds for back state taxes.  I figured out the person in need of Economic Life Support is...me.

I'm so sorry that your spouse is such an idiot with money. If you decide to kick him to the curb, you've got this internet stranger rooting for you. And with any luck, you can dump him with all the debt he's created and walk away.

[Cassie]

Wow you certainly don't deserve to have that kind of crap happen and it doesn't sound like you guys are young since he has a pension. The fact that you need a second job and it's at McDonald's would be great motivation for booting him out.

[Morning Glory]

Relative found an old $20 bill and got all excited because "it's worth $35 in today's money".

[Here4theGB]

Relative found an old $20 bill and got all excited because "it's worth $35 in today's money".

lol wtf

[dandarc]

Relative found an old $20 bill and got all excited because "it's worth $35 in today's money".

Maybe it is so old it is a collector's item?

[Ann]

Relative found an old $20 bill and got all excited because "it's worth $35 in today's money".

lol wtf

Awww.  I think the person just got confused about inflation.   That found money is worth *less* today than the day you lost it.  But I sympathize with trying to make a clever comment on the fly and end up sounding confused and uninformed.

[Taran Wanderer]

Relative found an old $20 bill and got all excited because "it's worth $35 in today's money".

lol wtf

Awww.  I think the person just got confused about inflation.   That found money is worth *less* today than the day you lost it.  But I sympathize with trying to make a clever comment on the fly and end up sounding confused and uninformed.

In other words, “Awww, bless their heart...”

[Sugaree]

I went to a Halloween party that is a long-standing tradition for us.  This is a gathering that I've been going to since maybe middle school, so most of the people there might as well be family.  Talking to the host's son.  He's just lost his job and is cashing out his 401k.  He knows it's a bad idea, but "needs the money."  Dude has lived at home with his mom and dad since college graduation (he is a nearly full-time caregiver for them at this point, but it hasn't always been this way).  Said that he'd been making $17/hr, but is only getting ~$20k from the cashed out retirement plan.  At least he knows that there are going to be taxes and penalties associated with this withdrawal and won't be surprised at tax time.

At the same party, my BFF mentioned that she is borrowing from her kids' college funds to pay for the heated pool she's putting in.  She received at least $500k from a life insurance when her husband died two years ago.  Her theory is that "there's no point in saving for retirement when you could die tomorrow."  Grief spending or not, that's ridiculous.  I didn't ask, but I so hope that at least some of that money is just tied up somehow where she can't get to it all (this has become my plan for my life insurance policy since I could definitely see anyone who would end up with my son doing the same thing). 

[dandarc]

#1 I can give a pass - wasn't making much in the first place, probably stressed as hell taking of parents, understands the consequences. Obviously not great, but understandable.

#2 not so much - borrowing from kid's college fund to put in a pool is just . . . no.

[Kitsune]

#2 not so much - borrowing from kid's college fund to put in a pool is just . . . no.

Well, also, as parents, my husband and I have life insurance so that if either of us die before being FI:
- there's enough money for interest income to replace lost income from the dead parent
- pay off the house, ensure stability for the children
- afford caretaking that's suddenly needed by being a single parent to 3 small kids
- afford any therapy or help the kids need to deal with it
- surviving parent can take time off work if needed to deal with their grief and also help the kids process theirs
- college funds, healthcare expenses, etc - set the kids up to be ok in your absence

In NO WAY is there life insurance to splash out for 2 years and get heated pools and nice cars.

[Sugaree]

#2 not so much - borrowing from kid's college fund to put in a pool is just . . . no.

Well, also, as parents, my husband and I have life insurance so that if either of us die before being FI:
- there's enough money for interest income to replace lost income from the dead parent
- pay off the house, ensure stability for the children
- afford caretaking that's suddenly needed by being a single parent to 3 small kids
- afford any therapy or help the kids need to deal with it
- surviving parent can take time off work if needed to deal with their grief and also help the kids process theirs
- college funds, healthcare expenses, etc - set the kids up to be ok in your absence

In NO WAY is there life insurance to splash out for 2 years and get heated pools and nice cars.

This is where I'm at.  He would be furious at some of these things.  He was a semi-rabid Dave Ramsey fan.  Unfortunately, I can see that there are going to be bigger issues down the road with his family down the road.  The six year-old is the late husband's biological daughter.  The 15 year-old isn't.  And while he never made that distinction, his family has a tendency to at times.  So it's going to be really, really ugly if the oldest daughter gets college paid for and the money runs out before the youngest graduates HS. 

As it stands right now, I could definitely see my husband or my parents blowing through a lot of money in a short amount of time if I died.  Maybe not to this extent, but (with my parents) my kid would end up taking a lot of cruises with them.  This has definitely been an eye-opening experience for me in regards to how I need to set things up with my own insurance.

[Linea_Norway]

#2 not so much - borrowing from kid's college fund to put in a pool is just . . . no.

Well, also, as parents, my husband and I have life insurance so that if either of us die before being FI:
- there's enough money for interest income to replace lost income from the dead parent
- pay off the house, ensure stability for the children
- afford caretaking that's suddenly needed by being a single parent to 3 small kids
- afford any therapy or help the kids need to deal with it
- surviving parent can take time off work if needed to deal with their grief and also help the kids process theirs
- college funds, healthcare expenses, etc - set the kids up to be ok in your absence

In NO WAY is there life insurance to splash out for 2 years and get heated pools and nice cars.

This is where I'm at.  He would be furious at some of these things.  He was a semi-rabid Dave Ramsey fan.  Unfortunately, I can see that there are going to be bigger issues down the road with his family down the road.  The six year-old is the late husband's biological daughter.  The 15 year-old isn't.  And while he never made that distinction, his family has a tendency to at times.  So it's going to be really, really ugly if the oldest daughter gets college paid for and the money runs out before the youngest graduates HS. 

As it stands right now, I could definitely see my husband or my parents blowing through a lot of money in a short amount of time if I died.  Maybe not to this extent, but (with my parents) my kid would end up taking a lot of cruises with them.  This has definitely been an eye-opening experience for me in regards to how I need to set things up with my own insurance.

Are there options to give the children a financial guardian who controls/protects their money?

And could you (anonimously) warn child protection about this. Or is the mother not doing anything illegal? Probably not, just something very immoral.

[Sugaree]

#2 not so much - borrowing from kid's college fund to put in a pool is just . . . no.

Well, also, as parents, my husband and I have life insurance so that if either of us die before being FI:
- there's enough money for interest income to replace lost income from the dead parent
- pay off the house, ensure stability for the children
- afford caretaking that's suddenly needed by being a single parent to 3 small kids
- afford any therapy or help the kids need to deal with it
- surviving parent can take time off work if needed to deal with their grief and also help the kids process theirs
- college funds, healthcare expenses, etc - set the kids up to be ok in your absence

In NO WAY is there life insurance to splash out for 2 years and get heated pools and nice cars.

This is where I'm at.  He would be furious at some of these things.  He was a semi-rabid Dave Ramsey fan.  Unfortunately, I can see that there are going to be bigger issues down the road with his family down the road.  The six year-old is the late husband's biological daughter.  The 15 year-old isn't.  And while he never made that distinction, his family has a tendency to at times.  So it's going to be really, really ugly if the oldest daughter gets college paid for and the money runs out before the youngest graduates HS. 

As it stands right now, I could definitely see my husband or my parents blowing through a lot of money in a short amount of time if I died.  Maybe not to this extent, but (with my parents) my kid would end up taking a lot of cruises with them.  This has definitely been an eye-opening experience for me in regards to how I need to set things up with my own insurance.

Are there options to give the children a financial guardian who controls/protects their money?

And could you (anonimously) warn child protection about this. Or is the mother not doing anything illegal? Probably not, just something very immoral.

It's not illegal.  She was the beneficiary, not the girls. 

[charis]

#2 not so much - borrowing from kid's college fund to put in a pool is just . . . no.

Well, also, as parents, my husband and I have life insurance so that if either of us die before being FI:
- there's enough money for interest income to replace lost income from the dead parent
- pay off the house, ensure stability for the children
- afford caretaking that's suddenly needed by being a single parent to 3 small kids
- afford any therapy or help the kids need to deal with it
- surviving parent can take time off work if needed to deal with their grief and also help the kids process theirs
- college funds, healthcare expenses, etc - set the kids up to be ok in your absence

In NO WAY is there life insurance to splash out for 2 years and get heated pools and nice cars.

This is where I'm at.  He would be furious at some of these things.  He was a semi-rabid Dave Ramsey fan.  Unfortunately, I can see that there are going to be bigger issues down the road with his family down the road.  The six year-old is the late husband's biological daughter.  The 15 year-old isn't.  And while he never made that distinction, his family has a tendency to at times.  So it's going to be really, really ugly if the oldest daughter gets college paid for and the money runs out before the youngest graduates HS. 

As it stands right now, I could definitely see my husband or my parents blowing through a lot of money in a short amount of time if I died.  Maybe not to this extent, but (with my parents) my kid would end up taking a lot of cruises with them.  This has definitely been an eye-opening experience for me in regards to how I need to set things up with my own insurance.

Are there options to give the children a financial guardian who controls/protects their money?

And could you (anonimously) warn child protection about this. Or is the mother not doing anything illegal? Probably not, just something very immoral.

It strikes me as extreme that you would suggest contacting CPS.  What made you think that the mother was doing something illegal?  There are lots of parents that would rather install a pool than maintain a robust college fund for their children (and this family is grieving).  Yes, it's very unwise and very uncool - it's probably not what her spouse agreed to when he was living, and it's not what most of us would choose - but I'm not sure it's "very immoral".

The father could have designated the children as the life insurance beneficiaries or put money in a trust for the children and appointed a trustee that was not their mother to make financial decisions about those funds, but it sounds like he did not.

[Roadrunner53]

There is a guy I know that isn't a relative but this story really bothers me! The guy and his wife have two kids. They both work and are foolish with their money. They just went thru a bankruptcy and one of their cars got repoed. The wife and kids are living with her relatives and he just managed to get another apartment. The guy makes just above minimum wage and is super overweight and lazy at his job. He avoids doing his job which makes his coworkers mad. The company he works for has a hardship fund for employees and he managed to get just under $2,000. He plans to buy a junker car with it and you know what that will lead to. More car repairs, more money to dump into it that he barely has. His wife works too. Not sure what she does but at least she has a job. Like I mentioned, he works for just above minimum wage but his company offers almost free college to its employees. You'd think with that opportunity he would go for a degree so he could make more money and get ahead! I doubt he will ever do it. To work at a dead end job for your entire life just seems so depressing. Why don't people want to improve their lives and their children's? I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel for this guy and his family.

[prudent_one]

Why don't people want to improve their lives and their children's?

I knew someone like that. His worldview was that if you work for others, you're their slave. Demeaning, you know. Beneath him. And also, he couldn't work for himself since the system was rigged against people like him (not JUST him, of course). So in his mind, the way to "win" was to bounce around among menial jobs, doing as little as possible (see, that's how you stick it to the man) until getting canned (which was always "getting screwed").

Fired for being lazy? "I wasn't going to bust my ass for that jerk for what I was getting paid."
Fired for missing too much work? "Bullshit excuse for getting rid of me. He didn't like that I didn't kiss his ass. Other people missed more work than I did."
Fired for stealing? "That stuff was going to be thrown out anyway, it was bullshit."
Fired for poor performance? "Sure, they trained that <person of different race> and ignored his screwups, but since I was <race> I was expendable."
Fired for insubordination? "Who thinks they can talk to me that way and I'm supposed to just take it? I don't have to put up with that shit. I'm not a slave."

In between the firings, we'd occasionally hear anecdotes of his "wins" at the job, consisting of how he got away with stuff.

Dude, so check this out - last week the boss was gone and some idiot returned five 2x4s he bought last week. Stupid ass couldn't even figure out how many he needed. After I refunded him I cut off 4 inches of each one from the end with the stock tag and said that's all he returned and since we're supposed to keep the customers happy I refunded him in full. Meanwhile, five free 2x4s that are a little short jumped in my truck. Sweeeet win.

Point being, some people can rationalize anything to avoid blame or responsibility, and at the same time present themselves as rugged take-no-prisoners types worthy of admiration.

[SwordGuy]

Why don't people want to improve their lives and their children's?

I knew someone like that. His worldview was that if you work for others, you're their slave. Demeaning, you know. Beneath him. And also, he couldn't work for himself since the system was rigged against people like him (not JUST him, of course). So in his mind, the way to "win" was to bounce around among menial jobs, doing as little as possible (see, that's how you stick it to the man) until getting canned (which was always "getting screwed").

Fired for being lazy? "I wasn't going to bust my ass for that jerk for what I was getting paid."
Fired for missing too much work? "Bullshit excuse for getting rid of me. He didn't like that I didn't kiss his ass. Other people missed more work than I did."
Fired for stealing? "That stuff was going to be thrown out anyway, it was bullshit."
Fired for poor performance? "Sure, they trained that <person of different race> and ignored his screwups, but since I was <race> I was expendable."
Fired for insubordination? "Who thinks they can talk to me that way and I'm supposed to just take it? I don't have to put up with that shit. I'm not a slave."

In between the firings, we'd occasionally hear anecdotes of his "wins" at the job, consisting of how he got away with stuff.

Dude, so check this out - last week the boss was gone and some idiot returned five 2x4s he bought last week. Stupid ass couldn't even figure out how many he needed. After I refunded him I cut off 4 inches of each one from the end with the stock tag and said that's all he returned and since we're supposed to keep the customers happy I refunded him in full. Meanwhile, five free 2x4s that are a little short jumped in my truck. Sweeeet win.

Point being, some people can rationalize anything to avoid blame or responsibility, and at the same time present themselves as rugged take-no-prisoners types worthy of admiration.

People like that gravitate to leaders who lead them to believe they'll be able to oppress others, because then THOSE PEOPLE (whoever they are in their twisted little minds) will pay.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Why don't people want to improve their lives and their children's?

I knew someone like that. His worldview was that if you work for others, you're their slave. Demeaning, you know. Beneath him. And also, he couldn't work for himself since the system was rigged against people like him (not JUST him, of course). So in his mind, the way to "win" was to bounce around among menial jobs, doing as little as possible (see, that's how you stick it to the man) until getting canned (which was always "getting screwed").

Fired for being lazy? "I wasn't going to bust my ass for that jerk for what I was getting paid."
Fired for missing too much work? "Bullshit excuse for getting rid of me. He didn't like that I didn't kiss his ass. Other people missed more work than I did."
Fired for stealing? "That stuff was going to be thrown out anyway, it was bullshit."
Fired for poor performance? "Sure, they trained that <person of different race> and ignored his screwups, but since I was <race> I was expendable."
Fired for insubordination? "Who thinks they can talk to me that way and I'm supposed to just take it? I don't have to put up with that shit. I'm not a slave."

In between the firings, we'd occasionally hear anecdotes of his "wins" at the job, consisting of how he got away with stuff.

Dude, so check this out - last week the boss was gone and some idiot returned five 2x4s he bought last week. Stupid ass couldn't even figure out how many he needed. After I refunded him I cut off 4 inches of each one from the end with the stock tag and said that's all he returned and since we're supposed to keep the customers happy I refunded him in full. Meanwhile, five free 2x4s that are a little short jumped in my truck. Sweeeet win.

Point being, some people can rationalize anything to avoid blame or responsibility, and at the same time present themselves as rugged take-no-prisoners types worthy of admiration.

Ah, the entitlement-class professional victim mentality. It's not an economic thing; the phenomenon exists at all income levels. They believe, as adults, that they are entitled to the results of other people's labor without giving anything of like value in exchange. If they do not receive such resources from others voluntarily, they believe they are (a) being wronged or treated unjustly, and (b) entitled to take what they want by means of theft, guilt, deception, extortion, or outright violence. Furthermore, this belief always has a basis in fact. They interpret their successful thefts or guilt-tripping as evidence they are right, and when their schemes fail or there are negative consequences for their negative behavior they do not see their own behavior as having played a role in what happened. It's always the other person's fault.

Folks like this will pee on your leg and tell you it's raining. You might think they are your friends, but they aren't. They are enemies that have not yet targeted you. In their minds, there are circumstances in which they believe theft, extortion, property damage, or (insert abuse of your choice) are acceptable and in fact justified and appropriate. They seek out enablers who at least appear to agree with them. It's easy to go along with them, at least verbally, because individuals who behave this way are superficially charming and fun to be around. That's how they get away with behaving badly to as many people as they do: there's always a Greek Chorus proclaiming "But he's such a Pillar of the Community!" or "But she's such a sweet person!" It's dangerous to be such an enabler because when a person thinks that way it's only a matter of time before you become a target. One day, they decide that the circumstances are right to justify doing it to you. You can't buy immunity. The second you have something they want and aren't sharing with you, they go full Robin Hood.

[Roadrunner53]

The lazy guy I mentioned is always bragging that in his former job he was a manager at a well known fast food chain. He said the job was great. I chalk it up to the fact that he may have been allowed to eat all the food he wanted and that is what made it such a great job. I wonder if it was such a great job; why isn't he working there anymore? I am guessing he got fired. But I don't know for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get fired at the current job he has. He calls out often and when he is there is whines about everything and tries to get out of doing anything.

The sad thing is that he learns quickly and when he does apply himself, he does a good job. So, if he were to put his positive energy into things, he might move up the ladder slowly to something better. OR, find another job somewhere else that better suits him.

I definitely can see how depressing this job could be. Low pay, dealing with rude customers, working weekends and holidays. Nope, not for me.

At this current job, employees accrue PTO from the hours worked. Seems the minute they accrue one day they call out. The lazy guy isn't the only one calling out. They have a pretty strict attendance policy but the workers seem to know all the ins and outs. However, a lot have gotten fired for bad attendance. The company has even implemented a reward system for not missing days where they get a bonus at the end of a certain time frame. But even that doesn't inspire some to come to work!

It must be hell on earth for these chain stores, that have no authority to pay more per hour, and have to deal with a never ending parade of people hiring and firing them.

[SwordGuy]

The lazy guy I mentioned is always bragging that in his former job he was a manager at a well known fast food chain. He said the job was great. I chalk it up to the fact that he may have been allowed to eat all the food he wanted and that is what made it such a great job.

I bet he liked lording it over the other workers, too.

[Just Joe]

People like this are a good reason to get advanced training or a college degree. Never want any daily doses of him IRL. Share as much as you want about him here however. ;)

[Roadrunner53]

Lazy guy got that hardship loan from his company and shows no appreciation. He finds hiding places to take naps while on the clock. At this point no one has turned him in but coworkers are disgruntled that he is getting away with this behavior. It is only a mater of time before this guy gets fired.

Once he gets fired then what?