Relatives who just don't get it

[slugline]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there. I have a really hard time believing that there are any gas-burning car owners that are driving enough to pay $1000/year in gasoline taxes:

$1000 divided by 37 cents/gallon (IL gas tax) times 39 miles/gallon (CAFE standard for cars) = 105405 miles

Even taxis aren't driven that much!

[DadJokes]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there. I have a really hard time believing that there are any gas-burning car owners that are driving enough to pay $1000/year in gasoline taxes:

$1000 divided by 37 cents/gallon (IL gas tax) times 39 miles/gallon (CAFE standard for cars) = 105405 miles

Even taxis aren't driven that much!

No, Tennessee - I just looked it up and found out that the legislation was actually passed in 2017, but it's just an additional $100 added onto registration fees (normally ~$80). It would take 14.7k miles in a gas-powered car at 39 miles/gallon (not sure where that number is coming from). That's certainly on the high end, but not terribly unreasonable, since they are also getting out of the 18.4 cent federal gas tax.

I wonder if the federal government ever tries to come up with a way to tax miles on electric cars...

[Slow&Steady]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there. I have a really hard time believing that there are any gas-burning car owners that are driving enough to pay $1000/year in gasoline taxes:

$1000 divided by 37 cents/gallon (IL gas tax) times 39 miles/gallon (CAFE standard for cars) = 105405 miles

Even taxis aren't driven that much!

No, Tennessee - I just looked it up and found out that the legislation was actually passed in 2017, but it's just an additional $100 added onto registration fees (normally ~$80). It would take 14.7k miles in a gas-powered car at 39 miles/gallon (not sure where that number is coming from). That's certainly on the high end, but not terribly unreasonable, since they are also getting out of the 18.4 cent federal gas tax.

I wonder if the federal government ever tries to come up with a way to tax miles on electric cars...

I have heard rumors about this happening in my state too (none of the ones listed above).  I am an EV driver and agree with the toll road option but don't think that will really ever happen so paying an increased fee at registration seems like the fastest/easiest way for the state to collect money from me for the roads that I use.

Now if they could just figure out a way to maintain the roads I drive so that I am not replacing tires and tie-rods multiple times a year that would be awesome.  (Yes I should watch for potholes better, but when the damn thing wasn't there yesterday but is today and is bigger than my entire car I cannot avoid that without cause more damage)

[economista]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there. I have a really hard time believing that there are any gas-burning car owners that are driving enough to pay $1000/year in gasoline taxes:

$1000 divided by 37 cents/gallon (IL gas tax) times 39 miles/gallon (CAFE standard for cars) = 105405 miles

Even taxis aren't driven that much!

No, Tennessee - I just looked it up and found out that the legislation was actually passed in 2017, but it's just an additional $100 added onto registration fees (normally ~$80). It would take 14.7k miles in a gas-powered car at 39 miles/gallon (not sure where that number is coming from). That's certainly on the high end, but not terribly unreasonable, since they are also getting out of the 18.4 cent federal gas tax.

I wonder if the federal government ever tries to come up with a way to tax miles on electric cars...

I have heard rumors about this happening in my state too (none of the ones listed above).  I am an EV driver and agree with the toll road option but don't think that will really ever happen so paying an increased fee at registration seems like the fastest/easiest way for the state to collect money from me for the roads that I use.

Now if they could just figure out a way to maintain the roads I drive so that I am not replacing tires and tie-rods multiple times a year that would be awesome.  (Yes I should watch for potholes better, but when the damn thing wasn't there yesterday but is today and is bigger than my entire car I cannot avoid that without cause more damage)

This is the case in CO as well, but I would love to have such cheap car registration. The normal registration for a new car is around $600-$900 depending on the weight of the vehicle. When I just bought my EV a few months ago I was annoyed there was an extra $50 fee tacked on for it being an EV. However, we do get a state tax credit of $5000 for purchasing an EV, so I guess it is still incentivized, but I really don’t like disincentivizing EVs.

[mm1970]

I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

What we really need to be doing is converting more roads to toll roads to make the clear connection between using something and paying for it.

I've noticed some toll roads in southern LA/  San Diego area.  Ended up on one by accident (stupid google maps).  I don't mind paying tolls (and it was a tiny bit faster), but the method of payment (all online, and hard to navigate by phone) was annoying. 

[thedigitalone]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

(Sigh) Washington State:
Washington State bill to increase annual EV fee to $350
Currently annual EV fee is $150 but new proposal is on the docket to raise it to $350.

https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=5971&Year=2019

From Geekwire article:
"The current annual EV registration fee of $150 is roughly comparable to the amount of state gas tax (currently $0.494 per gallon) a driver of a 34.6 mpg gas-powered car would pay after driving about 10,500 miles per year. That’s the average fuel efficiency of light-duty passenger cars from the 10-year period between 2007 and 2016, according to data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

Under the new tax structure proposed by SB-5971 of $0.554 per gallon of gas and $350 per year for EVs, a 34.6 mpg gas-powered car would have to be driven 21,850 miles (2.4 times the WA state average) before the owner would pay Washington State as much in gas taxes as EV owners would be charged each year to register their vehicles"

[Syonyk]

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there.

Yeah, but you can probably get an official exemption if you make a campaign contribution.  You know, a little... wink wink, eh?  Some Bennios in the pocketios?

[dcheesi]

I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

What we really need to be doing is converting more roads to toll roads to make the clear connection between using something and paying for it.

I've noticed some toll roads in southern LA/  San Diego area.  Ended up on one by accident (stupid google maps).  I don't mind paying tolls (and it was a tiny bit faster), but the method of payment (all online, and hard to navigate by phone) was annoying.

Or even more "fun", lots of toll roads and "express lanes" around here are EZ-Pass only; if you wind up on that road without a transponder, you're automatically looking at big fine...

[AlanStache]

EZ-Pass is nearly required in South East Virginia with the bridges and tunnels.  You can not have one but then you are charged like 3 times more per toll.  It would be impracticable to ovoid the toll tunnels.  For a long time we had very few tolls so everyone set up there life to drive from one land area across some water to a different land area but the infrastructure did not keep up and to pay for new crossings tolls were added a few years back.  And there will likely be more tolls in future.  when I bought my current house I picked an area that would not require crossing a tunnel/bottleneck and it is great having a short commute.

[Catbert]

California is getting ready (2020 I think) to charge electric vehicles an extra $100 a year.  This show everybody

http://www.ncsl.org/research/energy/new-fees-on-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles.aspx

[A Fella from Stella]

I bought a house that was not a great one, but has been slowly getting improved.

My siblings? One rents a very nice place with matching leased Mercedes in front, and the other paid the same amount as me for half as much space in a less desirable school district.

Everyone worries that I must not be doing well despite the fact that I've told them I have a 15 yr loan on the place. But they see that my van has 161k miles, not that my mortgage balance is $161k and I'm under 40.

[six-car-habit]

EZ-Pass is nearly required in South East Virginia with the bridges and tunnels.  You can not have one but then you are charged like 3 times more per toll.  It would be impracticable to ovoid the toll tunnels.  For a long time we had very few tolls so everyone set up there life to drive from one land area across some water to a different land area but the infrastructure did not keep up and to pay for new crossings tolls were added a few years back.  And there will likely be more tolls in future.  when I bought my current house I picked an area that would not require crossing a tunnel/bottleneck and it is great having a short commute.

 Whatever happened to the note on every denomination of dollar bill i've ever seen -- " This note is legal tender for all debts public and private " -- i wonder why these toll roads are not required to have a cash lane....
  Likewise, my Health maintenance organization refuses to accept cash for co-pays -- hmmmn, my dollar bill says otherwise ?

[flipboard]

Whatever happened to the note on every denomination of dollar bill i've ever seen -- " This note is legal tender for all debts public and private " -- i wonder why these toll roads are not required to have a cash lane....
  Likewise, my Health maintenance organization refuses to accept cash for co-pays -- hmmmn, my dollar bill says otherwise ?

Keyword is debt.

Presumably once the toll road operators send you a bill by mail you could pay it with cash.

[TomTX]

I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

[flipboard]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

[Tass]

Well, or shifting the costs to the people who actually buy those things. Obviously we all rely on shipping, but not all to the same extent.

Not even arguing for it, but I think the effects would be more complex than "moving your own costs around."

[ysette9]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

More likely is that economics would kick in and some shipping would be shifted to less expensive method. Maybe we would use more rail and accept thugs arriving in five days instead of two. In any case a new equilibrium would be found.

[TomTX]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

And it pushes the trucking industry toward buying cleaner, more efficient new trucks - take the inefficient old smokers to the scrapyard.

Plus, I don't buy that much stuff.

Win-win.

[zolotiyeruki]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.

[flipboard]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.

It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

[TomTX]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.

It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

[flipboard]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.

It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

Where I live, only the main road is regularly used by trucks. 2 lorries use it per day (not even 9t), to supply the local supermarket (after the main road, they get onto the motorway - which is funded by federal money as opposed to local money). Local roads other than the main road aren't used by trucks, except for construction... and deliveries directly to people living there. Effectively, truck traffic on locally funded roads is mostly non-existent.

Now I lied when I said 2 trucks - 2 trucks from far away use the road. Waste disposal lorries use each road once a week, but they're completely local, funded by local taxes - so you'd shift one local tax into a different local tax. Oh, and the local buses. Public transport is _definitely_ something that should be subsidised by road taxes.

[Uturn]

.. and accept thugs arriving in five days instead of two.

Nope.  When I call for a thug, I need them rather quickly. 

[former player]

.. and accept thugs arriving in five days instead of two.

Nope.  When I call for a thug, I need them rather quickly.

From now on I shall think of you as living the life I read about in thrillers.

[Slow&Steady]

My SO was telling me the other day that while talking to a sibling it was discussed that SO would probably be retiring around 45.  This is the recap I got from SO.

SO: Yeah so if all of our planning goes correctly, I should be retiring around 45.
Sib: That would be great, how are you going to do that?
SO: While Slow will probably still be working for insurance and such but we are prioritizing retirement savings over other material things.
Sib: What do you mean?
SO:  Slow puts a lot in to 401k options, we also use IRAs and we are looking at opening a individual 401k for my business so we can shovel more money in to tax sheltered accounts.
Sib: Oh how much do you put in to 401k?  We don't trust the stock market so we don't put money in there.  Plus we cashed out the 401K that Sib-in-law had previously so that we could move.
SO: Oh, we put a decent % into those retirement accounts and don't have trust issues with the stock market. Are the kids enjoying summer? ...

[ambimammular]

My SO was telling me the other day that while talking to a sibling it was discussed that SO would probably be retiring around 45.  This is the recap I got from SO.

SO: Yeah so if all of our planning goes correctly, I should be retiring around 45.
Sib: That would be great, how are you going to do that?
SO: While Slow will probably still be working for insurance and such but we are prioritizing retirement savings over other material things.
Sib: What do you mean?
SO:  Slow puts a lot in to 401k options, we also use IRAs and we are looking at opening a individual 401k for my business so we can shovel more money in to tax sheltered accounts.
Sib: Oh how much do you put in to 401k?  We don't trust the stock market so we don't put money in there.  Plus we cashed out the 401K that Sib-in-law had previously so that we could move.
SO: Oh, we put a decent % into those retirement accounts and don't have trust issues with the stock market. Are the kids enjoying summer? ...

'It's going to be a long hard climb without the stock market escalator.

[A Fella from Stella]

For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

[2Cent]

For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn

[Philociraptor]

Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn

Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

[Kitsune]

Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn

Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

[Philociraptor]

Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn

Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

When we first moved in we had roommates, but over time they all moved out and we never backfilled. Now it's just the wife and I with no plans for kids. The 3 empty bedrooms stay shut for weeks at a time, I closed off the AC vents to them. Hopefully that'll keep dust from accumulating. The smaller homes that are closer to fitting what we want run double what we paid for this one >_>

[Kitsune]

Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn

Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

When we first moved in we had roommates, but over time they all moved out and we never backfilled. Now it's just the wife and I with no plans for kids. The 3 empty bedrooms stay shut for weeks at a time, I closed off the AC vents to them. Hopefully that'll keep dust from accumulating. The smaller homes that are closer to fitting what we want run double what we paid for this one >_>

... That's just absolutely ridiculous. If it was just me and my husband, I'd definitely be looking for a way smaller space, just for maintenance. Ridiculous.

With kids, you DO ... well, I don't wanna say 'need', but you definitely appreciate extra space. Not 4K square feet of space (wtf), but even with 2300sqft we're gonna have shared bedrooms going on, so.

[Nicholas Carter]

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

In the part of the states that I live in, there are three observations. The first is that the ratio need not be in number of vehicles, but in miles per vehicle. An American might only drive for a couple hours a day, factoring in errands and averaging in a three four hour trip once a month. While a lorrie drives for nine to twelve hours without stopping: each truck is worth six to twenty four regular cars in time on the road.
Secondly, trucks drive in many places people do not: the company I work for receives a flatbed worth of materials from New Jersey every two weeks. A person who had to travel one third the width of the country every other week would probably fly. If you drive in between the big cities of the Midwest, perhaps one car in fifty is a lorrie of some kind.
Thirdly, to avoid congestion, trucks drive at many times people do not. If you are up and driving between four and six in the morning, perhaps one car in thirty is a lorrie.

[RetiredAt63]

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

In the part of the states that I live in, there are three observations. The first is that the ratio need not be in number of vehicles, but in miles per vehicle. An American might only drive for a couple hours a day, factoring in errands and averaging in a three four hour trip once a month. While a lorrie drives for nine to twelve hours without stopping: each truck is worth six to twenty four regular cars in time on the road.
Secondly, trucks drive in many places people do not: the company I work for receives a flatbed worth of materials from New Jersey every two weeks. A person who had to travel one third the width of the country every other week would probably fly. If you drive in between the big cities of the Midwest, perhaps one car in fifty is a lorrie of some kind.
Thirdly, to avoid congestion, trucks drive at many times people do not. If you are up and driving between four and six in the morning, perhaps one car in thirty is a lorrie.

I've driven major highways at times when at least half the vehicles were tractor trailers.  Late at night most people are not driving long distances, but the truckers are out in force.

In the past I've also seen highways in Quebec where the right hand land literally had depressions from the weight of the trucks.  You could see it clearly when the light was right, and they wee clearly from trucks, not cars becasue of the size.

[AlanStache]

Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn

Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

When we first moved in we had roommates, but over time they all moved out and we never backfilled. Now it's just the wife and I with no plans for kids. The 3 empty bedrooms stay shut for weeks at a time, I closed off the AC vents to them. Hopefully that'll keep dust from accumulating. The smaller homes that are closer to fitting what we want run double what we paid for this one >_>

... That's just absolutely ridiculous. If it was just me and my husband, I'd definitely be looking for a way smaller space, just for maintenance. Ridiculous.

With kids, you DO ... well, I don't wanna say 'need', but you definitely appreciate extra space. Not 4K square feet of space (wtf), but even with 2300sqft we're gonna have shared bedrooms going on, so.

I am in a similar situation with one of three bedrooms 'permanently' closed up.  House is 1400sq and much of it is never used but there are few homes that are that much smaller and the transaction cost to move would probably not be worth it.  And who knows maybe one day I will want a yoga room or vr flight simulator room :-)

[Gangly1]

Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

You are way underestimating the amount of truck traffic (at least for the US, but I'd assume the UK also).  In 2015, commercial trucks accounted for about 9% of all vehicle miles traveled.  So that is about 1:11 trucks:cars.  https://www.bts.gov/bts-publications/freight-facts-and-figures/freight-facts-figures-2017-chapter-3-freight

[OtherJen]

For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

Yeah, our friends tend to think that we're poor. Husband and I live in a small fixer-upper that we've been slowly fixing up over the last 15 years. We've replaced the roof, gutted and rebuilt the kitchen and bathroom, bought new appliances, a new furnace, and water heater, and installed vinyl siding, new flooring and paint in all rooms, and a new garage door.

We do one project at a time so that we don't take on large amounts of debt. Currently, our only debt other than our $54K mortgage balance is $2300 on a 0% interest credit card to cover the unexpectedly large roof cost this spring (our home improvement cash savings for this covered all but $3000). I spent a lot of time yesterday in a Discount Tire waiting room waiting for a tire patch and listened to several discussions about financing because others couldn't afford $500 for new tires. I could have covered cost that in cash yesterday if needed, and have done so in the past.

We live differently from other people. I'm okay with that.

[theskyisblue]

Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

Maybe what he was trying to say is this:  "You're my girl and I want to protect you and knowing that you are riding around on a bike in traffic scares the sh*t out of me.  Please, please, please rent a big SUV so that I know you're safe and I don't have to worry about you even on a work trip when someone else is paying for the damn car!  Gheesh!" 

But because he can't say that he had to make up a crazy financial argument b/c he thinks it will be more effective since you care about financial things.

[A Fella from Stella]

For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

Yeah, our friends tend to think that we're poor. Husband and I live in a small fixer-upper that we've been slowly fixing up over the last 15 years. We've replaced the roof, gutted and rebuilt the kitchen and bathroom, bought new appliances, a new furnace, and water heater, and installed vinyl siding, new flooring and paint in all rooms, and a new garage door.

We do one project at a time so that we don't take on large amounts of debt. Currently, our only debt other than our $54K mortgage balance is $2300 on a 0% interest credit card to cover the unexpectedly large roof cost this spring (our home improvement cash savings for this covered all but $3000). I spent a lot of time yesterday in a Discount Tire waiting room waiting for a tire patch and listened to several discussions about financing because others couldn't afford $500 for new tires. I could have covered cost that in cash yesterday if needed, and have done so in the past.

We live differently from other people. I'm okay with that.

@OtherJen, that's fantastic.

With such low debt, you must feel at ease with your finances. I certainly hope so.

We have much more debt than that, but we were pre-mustache for a very long time.

[A Fella from Stella]

Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

Maybe what he was trying to say is this:  "You're my girl and I want to protect you and knowing that you are riding around on a bike in traffic scares the sh*t out of me.  Please, please, please rent a big SUV so that I know you're safe and I don't have to worry about you even on a work trip when someone else is paying for the damn car!  Gheesh!" 

But because he can't say that he had to make up a crazy financial argument b/c he thinks it will be more effective since you care about financial things.

That's very kind of you. I'll add that maybe he's just disagreeable; like the kind of guy who thinks it's smart-sounding to disagree, just like someone who can't think, so they say they can "see both sides" when one side is so obviously wrong, therefore, in seeing both sides, choosing one would be easy.

Who calls not paying outrageous rental car tax rates "freeloading"? And even if you are, isn't that a good thing - to find a loophole? Wouldn't it be worse, then, to drive your own car and wear out the road when you didn't pay the taxes? How about if you bring your own food so you don't have to stop along the way?

[Just Joe]

But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

[GreenToTheCore]

Thanks all for the great responses. I was really feeling that the world had shifted on its axis a bit.

Kudos @happypigday for trying to figure out a positive spin on it. Reminds me that I should send my parents a safety study I just read. 

[Imma]

But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

I used to have a boss who would in all seriousness argue that him driving to work in his big Mercedes was better for the environment than me cycling, because it would be years before the pollution from the production of the steel my bike was made from was compensated and it would take even longer because I need to eat extra food due to all my cycling. Of course his Merc wasn't made from metal and doesn't need fuel :/

Guy even used the "trust me I'm an engineer" argument.

[TomTX]

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

That chart caps out at some pretty lightweight lorries. In the USA, the common 18-wheeler starts out at ~18 tons EMPTY, with a legal limit of 40 tons full.

Note that approximate doubling of weight from the Hummer to the 9 ton lorry makes the damage go up 20x. That would put an empty 18-wheeler at around 8,200x damage of a car and a full one at 164,000x

Between that and 9% of vehicle miles traveled, I did lowball things above - it's more like >99% of road damage in the USA is from trucks. State road planners in Texas completely ignore cars for road damage calculations (not for congestion, just damage).

[2Cent]

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

That chart caps out at some pretty lightweight lorries. In the USA, the common 18-wheeler starts out at ~18 tons EMPTY, with a legal limit of 40 tons full.

Note that approximate doubling of weight from the Hummer to the 9 ton lorry makes the damage go up 20x. That would put an empty 18-wheeler at around 8,200x damage of a car and a full one at 164,000x

Between that and 9% of vehicle miles traveled, I did lowball things above - it's more like >99% of road damage in the USA is from trucks. State road planners in Texas completely ignore cars for road damage calculations (not for congestion, just damage).

You have to divide by the amount of wheels as the damage = nr of wheels * weitght/wheels. So two 4 wheelers of 1 ton are the same as 1 2 ton 8 wheeler. Also larger wheels would be less damaging. It's still a huge difference though.

[Dragonswan]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.

It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

[Just Joe]

But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

I used to have a boss who would in all seriousness argue that him driving to work in his big Mercedes was better for the environment than me cycling, because it would be years before the pollution from the production of the steel my bike was made from was compensated and it would take even longer because I need to eat extra food due to all my cycling. Of course his Merc wasn't made from metal and doesn't need fuel :/

Guy even used the "trust me I'm an engineer" argument.

Some people are so over the top ridiculous and can't even see it. Did you manage a straight face?

[DadJokes]

Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

Are weigh stations even used? I don't know if I've ever seen one that was open.

[Dragonswan]

They are in my neck of the woods.  Though I'll admit it's 50/50 if the station is open.

[Fi(re) on the Farm]

Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

Are weigh stations even used? I don't know if I've ever seen one that was open.

My brother is a long haul trucker and probably breaks the law all the time. No trucker worth his shit goes through a weigh station. They all get off the highway the exit before and get off the exit after. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just stating a fact.