Relatives who just don't get it

[Sugaree]

Funny.  That's exactly what I said.  But his family is his circus and his monkeys...

Yeah, but that $400 comes out of your (plural) bank account.

Nah, it comes out of his discretionary money.  Really, I suspect that a portion of it as "worked off" by doing stuff around their house.

[saguaro]

How bizarre to give a gift and then ask for money. They should have given him 400 and left it up to your husband on how to spend it.

Indeed.  Though once my in-laws gave us a gift and asked for it back a couple of years later.   They were on a roll with buying artwork and bought us this huge framed print.   We were in an apartment and were moving out soon so didn't want to hang it up, thereby putting holes in the walls that we would have to repair in a couple of months.   They visited and were mad that it wasn't up.  They asked for it back.  We told them we were moving and would hang it up on our new home which satisfied them though they would have not gotten it back in any case.

Many years later, the print is still not up.   The whole kerfuffle over it really pissed us off and seeing it only reminds us of that ridiculous situation.

Why don't you just hang it up? I am sure they wanted to give you something nice and if you like it just hang it up.

Well there is still the chance of that I am thinking.  In spite of years of decluttering, it's still around, safe in a box, and it's DH's decision on whether it stays or goes, I won't do anything with it.  Thus far he hasn't wanted to part with it either. 

[SwordGuy]

...  A lot of times they'll buy him things that he doesn't really need and that will be his xmas present or birthday present.  A good example is last year, he ran his phone through the dishwasher (was watching a Youtube video on how to fix it and left the phone laying on the top rack and ran it through a cycle).  Instead of letting us handle it by getting a cheaper phone, they run out and buy him a brand new iPhone 8, when it had just come out, and told him that half of it was going to be his xmas/birthday present and he owed them $400 for the other half.

Wow!  That's a serious lack of class.


My parents were visiting over Christmas some years back. I had bought him a nice scroll saw for his shop.   I knew he didn't have one.


When I gave it to him, he pompously informed me that he had bought a better one for himself already.   He didn't want it.


Okey-dokey.   So I took him back to Lowes with me and returned it.   And didn't buy him anything else.

[Roadrunner53]

How bizarre to give a gift and then ask for money. They should have given him 400 and left it up to your husband on how to spend it.

Indeed.  Though once my in-laws gave us a gift and asked for it back a couple of years later.   They were on a roll with buying artwork and bought us this huge framed print.   We were in an apartment and were moving out soon so didn't want to hang it up, thereby putting holes in the walls that we would have to repair in a couple of months.   They visited and were mad that it wasn't up.  They asked for it back.  We told them we were moving and would hang it up on our new home which satisfied them though they would have not gotten it back in any case.

Many years later, the print is still not up.   The whole kerfuffle over it really pissed us off and seeing it only reminds us of that ridiculous situation.

Why don't you just hang it up? I am sure they wanted to give you something nice and if you like it just hang it up.

Well there is still the chance of that I am thinking.  In spite of years of decluttering, it's still around, safe in a box, and it's DH's decision on whether it stays or goes, I won't do anything with it.  Thus far he hasn't wanted to part with it either.

Why don't you talk to your SO and make plans to put it up. Get it up before the new year, invite your in laws over for some reason and let them see it up. Put closure to the whole thing and enjoy knowing that chapter is closed. Put a positive spin on it, have a few glasses of wine then watch some Netflix! Life is too short to dwell on dumb things.

[mustachepungoeshere]

Someone I know through family has always had a spending problem.

She is in her 60s, single, morbidly obese, worked low-paying jobs, and spent every dollar she had trying to spend her way out of her miserable life. Gambling debt, a new car with a loan, and buying jewellery, linen, electronics, and clothes on credit cards.

As her weight increased and her health deteriorated, she could no longer work, and was in danger of losing her house.

Her family bailed her out on the condition she stick to a budget.

She had a heart attack recently, so family travelled from interstate to be with her, and her sister let herself in to feed the cat.

She found not one but four pedigree cats. Cat urine and feces everywhere: the floor, the furniture, the overflowing litter trays.

The lounge room was piled high with shopping bags: thousands of dollars of new linen, still in their packets, but ruined by cat urine.

Mounds of clothes everywhere. Apparently she had given up washing and just bought new outfits instead.

Dozens and dozens of new rings, watches, necklaces, etc.

Her sister realised the spending was out of control, and started looking through paperwork.

Found a receipt for a $10,000 bedroom suite the woman had bought a few months earlier, and a letter from the furniture company asking her to arrange delivery because it was still sitting in their warehouse. (She couldn't let them deliver it because that would have meant letting someone inside the house).

And the sister found paperwork for another new car, $10,000 on top of the trade-in.

The family has already planned to have the house bulldozed when she dies, and just hope they can recoup enough from the sale of the land to pay for the demolition.

It's a sad story of ill health, weight complications, depression and other mental illness, and squalor, and it's all magnified because this woman thought she could buy happiness with a few shiny things.

[Taran Wanderer]

This belongs in the subforum Antimustachian Wall of Tragedy.

[debtfreejess]

Oh goodness - just discovered this thread and I've got about 24 years of frustration at my dad to unload, so buckle up.

My dad is one of those people where he really does seem to have a string of bad luck, but made 10x worse by his own poor decisions. He grew up pretty poor (dad was a minister, mom a SAHM), which is always resented and has since developed a pretty serious hoarding and spending addiction - more on that later.

He and my mom divorced when I was 6 and split custody 50/50, so he became a single parent, which he was not prepared for. He loved us and was trying his best, but didn't "get" the really basics of childrearing, even when my brother and I were pretty explicit about what we wanted and needed. To start, the house was absolutely packed with stuff. In a three bedroom condo, he had about a dozen guitars, a massive workout system he never used, approximately 5,000 books, over 1,000 DVDs and VHS, 200 fishing rods, etc. My brother and I shared a room with a bunk bed and we shared a bunk because he would buy us so much crap that we had to store some of it on the top bunk. Any time we tried to throw something out or donate it, he would intercept and lecture us about how he had spent a lot of money on it and it was going to be a collectible one day. Because of his resentment about his own poverty, he would constantly buy us stuff we never asked for, but didn't really get the basics.

My brother and I never wanted anything physical - we had some specific requests, but those were things like:

• Our own rooms when we were teenagers and since we're opposite genders
• A house that was clean enough to make us not feel ill or that we could have friends over
• Room on the dining room table to have family meals together
• To be dropped off at school on time, rather than 15 minutes late every single day
• The ability to toss expired food out of the fridge
• Re-home our incredibly hyper dog, who had no yard in that house and peed and pooped everywhere and was a nervous wreck with all the pent up energy
• Clothes that fit us

Unfortunately, my dad never saw fit to give us any of the above, but he did decide that we needed the following:

• Tickets to two different Rolling Stones concerts, both when we were under 13 years old (we like the band alot, but both fell asleep at both concerts since we were so young)
• TV in every single room of the house
• Every kitchen gadget under the sun
• Tickets for other expensive shows (Ringley Brothers, Harlem Globetrotters)
• A new suit every time he had a job interview (he was unemployed or underemployed for about 10 years, so there were a lot of suits)

A couple years after the divorce, he decided to go back to school for business, ultimately getting his MBA (yay!). However, it took him about 8 years to finish, worked only part time the whole time, and he took out the maximum amount of student loans he could and lived off whatever was left after paying tuition, without ever applying for grants or scholarships (boo!). Unfortunately, he discovered that the entry level jobs for someone in their early 50s with a new degree and no prior experience paid less than his base expenses, so to date, he has not used his business degree. He did find full time work about 10 years ago, thank god, but has saved pretty much no money and maxed out his credit cards.

Fast forward to today - both my brother and I have moved out and live on our own. Due to our age, we are both still on his dental insurance plan, but have otherwise received no aid or help from him (not that we need or want it). As soon as we were gone, he very quickly filled our room with more crap and stuff. Fortunately, he is too proud to ask his kids for money, but he complains about how broke he is frequently, while also doing the following:

• He has a boat in the garage that has not been on the water in over a decade and likely does not run anymore. He will not sell it because "he could never afford a boat like that again"
• He has two gas guzzling cars (Tahoe and a Pilot), one of which is constantly getting tickets/towed because he forgets to move it for street cleaning. Will not sell the older/crappier Tahoe because "the Pilot can't tow the boat"
• Probably spends $200-$500/mo on various collections, including hats, knives, musical instruments and accessories, and books. Currently has more books than he could possibly read in his lifetime
• Hoards mail and never reads it, so constantly paying fines for late payments, missed appointments, etc.
• Pays for premium cable, even though there is no show he really enjoys watching, he just wants the noise, I guess

He is also the type that always has advice for everyone else's finances and is baffled that it never works out for him. For example, after the 2016 election, he sold all of his stocks/funds and subsequently missed out on the 20%+ boom in the market. When my fiance and I started looking for a house, he first told us that we would never be able to put 20% down on a place in LA, then he offered to buy one with us so he could get out of his horrible condo and HOA. I politely nodded at the first (we just bought a house under market value with 19% down after two years of saving) and politely declined the offer (there is no way I'm tying my finances to his or dealing with his hoard). Unfortunately, he has a lot of health problems already and practically no savings, so I imagine my brother and I will have to support him to some degree when he eventually retires. In the meantime, every time he acquires some new piece of crap, I imagine the months its going to take us to clear out his place when he passes away, and I get angry thinking that I have to plan to support him financially because he doesn't see how every money decision he makes is the wrong one.

[Linea_Norway]

Oh goodness - just discovered this thread and I've got about 24 years of frustration at my dad to unload, so buckle up.

My dad is one of those people where he really does seem to have a string of bad luck, but made 10x worse by his own poor decisions. He grew up pretty poor (dad was a minister, mom a SAHM), which is always resented and has since developed a pretty serious hoarding and spending addiction - more on that later.

He and my mom divorced when I was 6 and split custody 50/50, so he became a single parent, which he was not prepared for. He loved us and was trying his best, but didn't "get" the really basics of childrearing, even when my brother and I were pretty explicit about what we wanted and needed. To start, the house was absolutely packed with stuff. In a three bedroom condo, he had about a dozen guitars, a massive workout system he never used, approximately 5,000 books, over 1,000 DVDs and VHS, 200 fishing rods, etc. My brother and I shared a room with a bunk bed and we shared a bunk because he would buy us so much crap that we had to store some of it on the top bunk. Any time we tried to throw something out or donate it, he would intercept and lecture us about how he had spent a lot of money on it and it was going to be a collectible one day. Because of his resentment about his own poverty, he would constantly buy us stuff we never asked for, but didn't really get the basics.

My brother and I never wanted anything physical - we had some specific requests, but those were things like:

• Our own rooms when we were teenagers and since we're opposite genders
• A house that was clean enough to make us not feel ill or that we could have friends over
• Room on the dining room table to have family meals together
• To be dropped off at school on time, rather than 15 minutes late every single day
• The ability to toss expired food out of the fridge
• Re-home our incredibly hyper dog, who had no yard in that house and peed and pooped everywhere and was a nervous wreck with all the pent up energy
• Clothes that fit us

Unfortunately, my dad never saw fit to give us any of the above, but he did decide that we needed the following:

• Tickets to two different Rolling Stones concerts, both when we were under 13 years old (we like the band alot, but both fell asleep at both concerts since we were so young)
• TV in every single room of the house
• Every kitchen gadget under the sun
• Tickets for other expensive shows (Ringley Brothers, Harlem Globetrotters)
• A new suit every time he had a job interview (he was unemployed or underemployed for about 10 years, so there were a lot of suits)

A couple years after the divorce, he decided to go back to school for business, ultimately getting his MBA (yay!). However, it took him about 8 years to finish, worked only part time the whole time, and he took out the maximum amount of student loans he could and lived off whatever was left after paying tuition, without ever applying for grants or scholarships (boo!). Unfortunately, he discovered that the entry level jobs for someone in their early 50s with a new degree and no prior experience paid less than his base expenses, so to date, he has not used his business degree. He did find full time work about 10 years ago, thank god, but has saved pretty much no money and maxed out his credit cards.

Fast forward to today - both my brother and I have moved out and live on our own. Due to our age, we are both still on his dental insurance plan, but have otherwise received no aid or help from him (not that we need or want it). As soon as we were gone, he very quickly filled our room with more crap and stuff. Fortunately, he is too proud to ask his kids for money, but he complains about how broke he is frequently, while also doing the following:

• He has a boat in the garage that has not been on the water in over a decade and likely does not run anymore. He will not sell it because "he could never afford a boat like that again"
• He has two gas guzzling cars (Tahoe and a Pilot), one of which is constantly getting tickets/towed because he forgets to move it for street cleaning. Will not sell the older/crappier Tahoe because "the Pilot can't tow the boat"
• Probably spends $200-$500/mo on various collections, including hats, knives, musical instruments and accessories, and books. Currently has more books than he could possibly read in his lifetime
• Hoards mail and never reads it, so constantly paying fines for late payments, missed appointments, etc.
• Pays for premium cable, even though there is no show he really enjoys watching, he just wants the noise, I guess

He is also the type that always has advice for everyone else's finances and is baffled that it never works out for him. For example, after the 2016 election, he sold all of his stocks/funds and subsequently missed out on the 20%+ boom in the market. When my fiance and I started looking for a house, he first told us that we would never be able to put 20% down on a place in LA, then he offered to buy one with us so he could get out of his horrible condo and HOA. I politely nodded at the first (we just bought a house under market value with 19% down after two years of saving) and politely declined the offer (there is no way I'm tying my finances to his or dealing with his hoard). Unfortunately, he has a lot of health problems already and practically no savings, so I imagine my brother and I will have to support him to some degree when he eventually retires. In the meantime, every time he acquires some new piece of crap, I imagine the months its going to take us to clear out his place when he passes away, and I get angry thinking that I have to plan to support him financially because he doesn't see how every money decision he makes is the wrong one.

This sounds bad. It must be hard for you to see your parent take such a speedy dive downhill.
Good for you that you did not let him join the house deal...

[Cassie]

I wouldn’t plan to ever support him.  When he gets so he can’t afford his bills he can sell his condo and move into a low income senior housing apartment. 

[ysette9]

Wow, what a story. I am so sorry you dealt with this growing up.

I don’t have to walk in your shoes, but if i did I would advise you to draw very firm, clear boundaries in your mind and with him about what you will and will not do for your father in the future. I would be inclined to offer no financial support whatsoever unless it is in the form of pre-purchased groceries or something that he can’t get his hands on. He has a long, solid track record of financial disaster, so anything you give him would only feed his disease.

If you are getting married then you are forming your own family which now takes precedent over your parents. I would be very upset as a spouse if I married someone who gave our joint household money to a walking disaster like that unless we had had deep discussions in advance of what we were both willing to do.

Finally, what if every time he complains about having money you offer to sell off some piece of junk for him to raise funds? The Tahoe, the boat, the gym set, the 100 guitars, the fishing poles, etc.? I’m sure he won’t take you up on it but if you repeat if ad naseum then  maybe he will get the message that financial outpatient care will not be coming from you and that perhaps he needs to look at his own actions as they relate to the problem he finds himself in.

[SwordGuy]

Wow, what a story. I am so sorry you dealt with this growing up.

I don’t have to walk in your shoes, but if i did I would advise you to draw very firm, clear boundaries in your mind and with him about what you will and will not do for your father in the future. I would be inclined to offer no financial support whatsoever unless it is in the form of pre-purchased groceries or something that he can’t get his hands on. He has a long, solid track record of financial disaster, so anything you give him would only feed his disease.

If you are getting married then you are forming your own family which now takes precedent over your parents. I would be very upset as a spouse if I married someone who gave our joint household money to a walking disaster like that unless we had had deep discussions in advance of what we were both willing to do.

Finally, what if every time he complains about having money you offer to sell off some piece of junk for him to raise funds? The Tahoe, the boat, the gym set, the 100 guitars, the fishing poles, etc.? I’m sure he won’t take you up on it but if you repeat if ad naseum then  maybe he will get the message that financial outpatient care will not be coming from you and that perhaps he needs to look at his own actions as they relate to the problem he finds himself in.

Got it in one!

[Hula Hoop]

Wow debtfreejess - I'm so sorry that  you had to deal with that growing up.  Ysette gives great advice.  Maybe one thing you could consider paying for, if he agrees, is counselling.  It may be too late but it sounds like he has an addiction.

[Dave1442397]

Wow, what a story. I am so sorry you dealt with this growing up.

I don’t have to walk in your shoes, but if i did I would advise you to draw very firm, clear boundaries in your mind and with him about what you will and will not do for your father in the future. I would be inclined to offer no financial support whatsoever unless it is in the form of pre-purchased groceries or something that he can’t get his hands on. He has a long, solid track record of financial disaster, so anything you give him would only feed his disease.

If you are getting married then you are forming your own family which now takes precedent over your parents. I would be very upset as a spouse if I married someone who gave our joint household money to a walking disaster like that unless we had had deep discussions in advance of what we were both willing to do.

Finally, what if every time he complains about having money you offer to sell off some piece of junk for him to raise funds? The Tahoe, the boat, the gym set, the 100 guitars, the fishing poles, etc.? I’m sure he won’t take you up on it but if you repeat if ad naseum then  maybe he will get the message that financial outpatient care will not be coming from you and that perhaps he needs to look at his own actions as they relate to the problem he finds himself in.

+1. You want to stay as far away from that mess as possible, at least from a financial perspective.

[debtfreejess]

@Cassie - I wish. Unfortunately, he's re-financed the condo almost a half dozen times in the last 30 years and pulled out equity every time to live off of. So even if he sells it (which will be a pretty low price in its current condition), there won't be much of a cash cushion to be gained.

@ysette9 - Thanks for the kind words. I agree entirely. My partner and I talk about my dad a lot - fortunately, they both get along, but I've made it clear that I'm not going to sink our family to keep my dad afloat. I've already had conversations with him about his junk and that if he ever needed to move in with me, his hoard is not coming with him. My dad's grace in all this is that he really has never asked me for any money or support - he's only ever gotten birthday and Christmas presents from me, as well as a little help in the form of labor here and there.

@Hula Hoop - Thanks for the thoughts. My dad has actually been in therapy for over 15 years for depression, etc. My suspicion is that the therapist doesn't know how bad his hoarding is, since all that information is coming from my dad and he waffles back and forth in seeing it as a problem. 

[Cassie]

It might be a good idea to get him on a waiting list for senior housing if he will agree. The wait can be a couple of years or more. I am sorry you are in this situation. When things blow up I would help him access services.

[FireHiker]

@debtfreejess  Welcome to the MMM Board! I'm sorry to read about your situation with your dad. My mom is similar, and you'll find there are several of us around here with parents who will never really be financially stable who make baffling decisions. My mom has definitely had some bad luck over the years, but the way you put it about making things 10x worse with bad choices on top of it describes her exactly. Life may give you a cactus but that doesn't mean you have to choose to sit on it...and it's hard when you see your own parent make that choice over and over.

[faithless]

Life may give you a cactus but that doesn't mean you have to choose to sit on it...and it's hard when you see your own parent make that choice over and over.

Very serious subject, but this quote did make me smile

[FireHiker]

Life may give you a cactus but that doesn't mean you have to choose to sit on it...and it's hard when you see your own parent make that choice over and over.

Very serious subject, but this quote did make me smile

Ha ha, thanks. I didn't make it up myself, but when I heard it I couldn't help but think how accurately it reflected my mother!

[Freedomin5]

Argh...just need to vent...

The Background:
We pay for tutoring for a young family member who is at risk of failing high school because he stays up all night gaming, can’t wake up for school the next morning, lives in a volatile household, and his mom says “growing boys need their sleep” and doesn’t make him go to school. This kid recently (last year) got a high end gaming computer. He also has an older laptop, a tablet, and a smart phone. Mom is on government assistance and they live with grandma practically rent-free. Kid is currently doing online courses after failing out of grade nine because he is a delicate snowflake who can’t handle the rough highschool environment. We spend about $100/week on intensive tutoring for the kid to help him keep on top of his assignments because there’s no way this kid can manage a self-study program.

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook “so that he can study better and pass his courses”. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) it’s the computer’s fault because it’s too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) it’s the house’s fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldn’t work)
3) it’s the desk’s fault because the “desk isn’t good for writing on” (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if you’re doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

[Dave1442397]

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook “so that he can study better and pass his courses”. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) it’s the computer’s fault because it’s too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) it’s the house’s fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldn’t work)
3) it’s the desk’s fault because the “desk isn’t good for writing on” (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if you’re doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

Hate to say it, but he doesn't sound like he's taking any of this seriously right now. He's using your tuition support as an excuse to play games and skip school, and now he's using the computer/house/desk as excuses for failing even with tuition support. I don't see this changing until the economic support stops and he finds out that in the real world, no one is handing you money for nothing.

[Freedomin5]

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook “so that he can study better and pass his courses”. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) it’s the computer’s fault because it’s too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) it’s the house’s fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldn’t work)
3) it’s the desk’s fault because the “desk isn’t good for writing on” (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if you’re doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

Hate to say it, but he doesn't sound like he's taking any of this seriously right now. He's using your tuition support as an excuse to play games and skip school, and now he's using the computer/house/desk as excuses for failing even with tuition support. I don't see this changing until the economic support stops and he finds out that in the real world, no one is handing you money for nothing.

Yup, as part of our response to him, we are going to advise him to get a part-time job and save up for the luxuries he wants. If he fails grade nine even with tutoring then that’s it. He’s used up his one chance and the tutoring stops.

[RetiredAt63]

It sounds like the only thing that will help him is getting him out of a household that lets him stay up all night and then sleep in the next day and miss school.  Which is not a situation you can solve, unfortunately.

[SwordGuy]

It sounds like the only thing that will help him is getting him out of a household that lets him stay up all night and then sleep in the next day and miss school.  Which is not a situation you can solve, unfortunately.

Contact his local department of child services and report that he's missing school because of what his mom does.    Maybe the law will solve the problem, one way or the other.  Doesn't sound like the mom will.

[Slow&Steady]

It sounds like the only thing that will help him is getting him out of a household that lets him stay up all night and then sleep in the next day and miss school.  Which is not a situation you can solve, unfortunately.

Contact his local department of child services and report that he's missing school because of what his mom does.    Maybe the law will solve the problem, one way or the other.  Doesn't sound like the mom will.

As a foster parent (to a kid that some how dropped out after failing freshman year, but will finally graduate at the age of 20), removing that kid from his family might eventually help him get a high school diploma/GED but it 100% will create an entirely different and potentially longer list of issues.  The "system" is completely screwed up and although that kid not graduating from high school will negatively impact the rest of his life it is not a reason to remove him from his parents and create the trauma that that involves.  There is scientific research out that proves that removing a kid from his parents/home is very traumatic event and will cause lasting damage to the developing brain, unless that kid is in real danger while living in that house it is absolutely better for him to stay in the home. 

If @Freedomin5 wants to help this young teen, finding a way to do that without money (and without trying to have the kid removed from his mom/grandma) would probably be best.  I get the impression that FN5 does not live near the kid, if they do the best help would be to provide support in physically being present for the kid. Go to the house after work and sit down to work on homework with him, call him daily and ask how schoolwork is going, pick him up on weekends and go visit colleges, go shoot a basketball with him for a hour or two, teach him how to drive (if he is old enough), go with him to pick up job applications, find out if there is an HR person at a local factory or other employer that you 2 can go interview together, etc.

[AMandM]

My gifts to DD are totally based on what she wants/needs, and always discussed with her first - so I have given snow tires, coffee tables, etc. - or to be more precise, we discussed budgets and my limits, she bought the items and I forked over the money.  But she thinks of those gifts fondly, the snow tires included - what says caring more than being sure your beloved child is not at risk winter driving?

I have a friend whose boyfriend bought her pretty earrings for Christmas the first year they were dating. The second year, when they were much more serious, he said something about the Christmas present he had picked out for her that made her think it might be an engagement ring. She was all happy and excited and full of anticipation.  Come Christmas, he gives a box much bigger than a ring would need. Somewhat puzzled, she unwraps it and finds... a set of jumper cables.

In the moment, she was pretty taken aback, but she recognized that it meant he cared about her. He knew she was driving an old car on country roads every day, and he didn't want her to get stuck out in the boonies. They did get engaged later, and they've been married for over 30 years.

When she was telling me this story, her husband interrupted to say that you can give earrings to any girl, but the jumper cables were chosen for her particular situation. Also, as a percentage of his disposable cash, the cables were much bigger than the earrings, because he chose heavy-duty, reliable ones.  My friend agreed, and said they still have those cables today.

[RetiredAt63]

My gifts to DD are totally based on what she wants/needs, and always discussed with her first - so I have given snow tires, coffee tables, etc. - or to be more precise, we discussed budgets and my limits, she bought the items and I forked over the money.  But she thinks of those gifts fondly, the snow tires included - what says caring more than being sure your beloved child is not at risk winter driving?

When she was telling me this story, her husband interrupted to say that you can give earrings to any girl, but the jumper cables were chosen for her particular situation. Also, as a percentage of his disposable cash, the cables were much bigger than the earrings, because he chose heavy-duty, reliable ones.  My friend agreed, and said they still have those cables today.

He gets major brownie points for that gift - he thought of her situation, he wanted her to be safe driving, he got the expensive heavy-duty ones instead of the cheapies.  He showed he cared.

[AMandM]

Finally, what if every time he complains about having money you offer to sell off some piece of junk for him to raise funds? The Tahoe, the boat, the gym set, the 100 guitars, the fishing poles, etc.? I’m sure he won’t take you up on it but if you repeat if ad naseum then  maybe he will get the message that financial outpatient care will not be coming from you and that perhaps he needs to look at his own actions as they relate to the problem he finds himself in.

He did say they'd be collectibles.  Time to sell them to a different collector!

In all seriousness, OP, I'm sorry you're in this situation but glad you and your fiance are facing it together.

[partgypsy]

My gifts to DD are totally based on what she wants/needs, and always discussed with her first - so I have given snow tires, coffee tables, etc. - or to be more precise, we discussed budgets and my limits, she bought the items and I forked over the money.  But she thinks of those gifts fondly, the snow tires included - what says caring more than being sure your beloved child is not at risk winter driving?

When she was telling me this story, her husband interrupted to say that you can give earrings to any girl, but the jumper cables were chosen for her particular situation. Also, as a percentage of his disposable cash, the cables were much bigger than the earrings, because he chose heavy-duty, reliable ones.  My friend agreed, and said they still have those cables today.

He gets major brownie points for that gift - he thought of her situation, he wanted her to be safe driving, he got the expensive heavy-duty ones instead of the cheapies.  He showed he cared.

That actually is a sweet story. The guy I'm seeing, there is a 0% chance he would buy me jewelry. But, he helped me renovate my kitchen including making a place for a dishwasher so I'm not chained to the sink doing dishes every day. Bought and helped install nice and more secure front and back doors on my house. Also helped with multiple house emergencies and a car emergency. I really appreciate if he says he's going to do something, even if there are complications or a delay, he does it. In fact I'm still not used to it.

[mm1970]

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook “so that he can study better and pass his courses”. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) it’s the computer’s fault because it’s too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) it’s the house’s fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldn’t work)
3) it’s the desk’s fault because the “desk isn’t good for writing on” (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if you’re doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

Hate to say it, but he doesn't sound like he's taking any of this seriously right now. He's using your tuition support as an excuse to play games and skip school, and now he's using the computer/house/desk as excuses for failing even with tuition support. I don't see this changing until the economic support stops and he finds out that in the real world, no one is handing you money for nothing.

Yup, as part of our response to him, we are going to advise him to get a part-time job and save up for the luxuries he wants. If he fails grade nine even with tutoring then that’s it. He’s used up his one chance and the tutoring stops.

What's the quote...never work harder for someone else than they are willing to work for themselves?

[Freedomin5]

It sounds like the only thing that will help him is getting him out of a household that lets him stay up all night and then sleep in the next day and miss school.  Which is not a situation you can solve, unfortunately.

Contact his local department of child services and report that he's missing school because of what his mom does.    Maybe the law will solve the problem, one way or the other.  Doesn't sound like the mom will.

As a foster parent (to a kid that some how dropped out after failing freshman year, but will finally graduate at the age of 20), removing that kid from his family might eventually help him get a high school diploma/GED but it 100% will create an entirely different and potentially longer list of issues.  The "system" is completely screwed up and although that kid not graduating from high school will negatively impact the rest of his life it is not a reason to remove him from his parents and create the trauma that that involves.  There is scientific research out that proves that removing a kid from his parents/home is very traumatic event and will cause lasting damage to the developing brain, unless that kid is in real danger while living in that house it is absolutely better for him to stay in the home. 

If @Freedomin5 wants to help this young teen, finding a way to do that without money (and without trying to have the kid removed from his mom/grandma) would probably be best.  I get the impression that FN5 does not live near the kid, if they do the best help would be to provide support in physically being present for the kid. Go to the house after work and sit down to work on homework with him, call him daily and ask how schoolwork is going, pick him up on weekends and go visit colleges, go shoot a basketball with him for a hour or two, teach him how to drive (if he is old enough), go with him to pick up job applications, find out if there is an HR person at a local factory or other employer that you 2 can go interview together, etc.

@Slow&Steady is spot on. We live on the other side of the world and only see the kid once a year. We do check in with him via Skype every other week. We are in contact with the tutor, and pay her directly (rather than giving mom or the kid the money). If we lived in the country, we would be at that kids house every day working on homework. Heck, I would even drive the kid to school myself. I’d be visiting teachers and school admin and being that squeaky wheel with his teachers. We considered offering to pay for boarding school, but this kid and his mom have other emotional issues, and mom would not let kid leave her side. So we do what we can.

[2Cent]

....

That actually is a sweet story. The guy I'm seeing, there is a 0% chance he would buy me jewelry. But, he helped me renovate my kitchen including making a place for a dishwasher so I'm not chained to the sink doing dishes every day. Bought and helped install nice and more secure front and back doors on my house. Also helped with multiple house emergencies and a car emergency. I really appreciate if he says he's going to do something, even if there are complications or a delay, he does it. In fact I'm still not used to it.

[Just Joe]

1) it’s the computer’s fault because it’s too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)

I know his problem is BS but tell him to put free Mint Linux on his "elderly" computer. The speed will return. He can run it from a flashdrive. If you are lucky it'll spark a CS fascination that he can parlay into a career.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

I have a relative with which I always exchange super practical gifts, specifically requested gifts. This year I asked for an expensive air dryer rack for clothes. These things are made of individually powder coated steel bars and held together with replaceable bolts. As opposed to the cheap white powder coated, poorly welded racks that always break.  And relative requested a particular tool for the xmas swap. That's all good, mustachian, even. The reason for this post is the amused comment that I got when I nominated the dryer rack - I should stop being to lazy and just put my clothes in the tumble dryer....... um...wha????

[Dicey]

I have a relative with which I always exchange super practical gifts, specifically requested gifts. This year I asked for an expensive air dryer rack for clothes. These things are made of individually powder coated steel bars and held together with replaceable bolts. As opposed to the cheap white powder coated, poorly welded racks that always break.  And relative requested a particular tool for the xmas swap. That's all good, mustachian, even. The reason for this post is the amused comment that I got when I nominated the dryer rack - I should stop being to lazy and just put my clothes in the tumble dryer....... um...wha????

@AnnaGrowsAMustache, I'm looking for a high quality drying rack. Care to share details?

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

I have a relative with which I always exchange super practical gifts, specifically requested gifts. This year I asked for an expensive air dryer rack for clothes. These things are made of individually powder coated steel bars and held together with replaceable bolts. As opposed to the cheap white powder coated, poorly welded racks that always break.  And relative requested a particular tool for the xmas swap. That's all good, mustachian, even. The reason for this post is the amused comment that I got when I nominated the dryer rack - I should stop being to lazy and just put my clothes in the tumble dryer....... um...wha????

@AnnaGrowsAMustache, I'm looking for a high quality drying rack. Care to share details?

I'm in NZ, so I doubt details would help you..... Nice that someone else appreciates the quality drying rack, though!

[Fi(re) on the Farm]

I have a relative with which I always exchange super practical gifts, specifically requested gifts. This year I asked for an expensive air dryer rack for clothes. These things are made of individually powder coated steel bars and held together with replaceable bolts. As opposed to the cheap white powder coated, poorly welded racks that always break.  And relative requested a particular tool for the xmas swap. That's all good, mustachian, even. The reason for this post is the amused comment that I got when I nominated the dryer rack - I should stop being to lazy and just put my clothes in the tumble dryer....... um...wha????

@AnnaGrowsAMustache, I'm looking for a high quality drying rack. Care to share details?

I'm in NZ, so I doubt details would help you..... Nice that someone else appreciates the quality drying rack, though!

Me too! I have two heavy duty wood ones and a couple of metal ones, I'd love to have a really good sturdy one.

[Freedomin5]

Argh...just need to vent...

The Background:
We pay for tutoring for a young family member who is at risk of failing high school because he stays up all night gaming, can’t wake up for school the next morning, lives in a volatile household, and his mom says “growing boys need their sleep” and doesn’t make him go to school. This kid recently (last year) got a high end gaming computer. He also has an older laptop, a tablet, and a smart phone. Mom is on government assistance and they live with grandma practically rent-free. Kid is currently doing online courses after failing out of grade nine because he is a delicate snowflake who can’t handle the rough highschool environment. We spend about $100/week on intensive tutoring for the kid to help him keep on top of his assignments because there’s no way this kid can manage a self-study program.

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook “so that he can study better and pass his courses”. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) it’s the computer’s fault because it’s too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) it’s the house’s fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldn’t work)
3) it’s the desk’s fault because the “desk isn’t good for writing on” (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if you’re doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

I have an update. I like posting here because you guys "get it", whereas I have to Explain The Obvious in real life because some people "don't get it".

Anyway, I was looking over bank statements because it's the end of the year and noticed that we haven't been paying the tutor for the past two weeks. We have been keeping in touch with the kid's mom on a weekly basis, and she never mentioned anything. So I reached out to the tutor to try to figure out what's going on. Turns out the mom stopped tutoring because the "kid is focusing on other subjects right now". I don't even know what that means because this tutor was responsible for helping him with ALL his subjects. Mom said that the 2+ hours of tutoring he was receiving was "too much for him to handle" because he has other stuff he needs to do. What other stuff?!?! The kid sleeps in until noon every day and then games for another good chunk of the day. ARGH!!! (Oh, and calling CPS is a no go because there isn't actually any abuse going on, and it was the public school that asked the kid to leave and do his lessons online, so technically he is still "in school", and even though his household has some stupid thinking patterns, it's actually quite stable. You can't call CPS because someone is stupid.).

No wonder the kid asked for a new laptop. It's to help him study better because he now doesn't have a tutor. He and his mom do not understand that having a new electronic will not help him with planning and organization, time management, etc. -- all those important executive functioning skills that help you hold a job and be an Independent and Successful human being.

Well, I'm sitting on the fence in terms of continuing to provide tutoring. You know how they say, you can teach a man to fish and give him a new fishing pole, but you can't actually make him pick up the pole and actually fish, or he may sell the pole because...I don't why you would sell the pole. I can't figure it out. But I have a feeling this kind of thinking is what keeps people poor and downtrodden.

/rant over

[sapphail]

Turns out the mom stopped tutoring because the "kid is focusing on other subjects right now". I don't even know what that means because this tutor was responsible for helping him with ALL his subjects. Mom said that the 2+ hours of tutoring he was receiving was "too much for him to handle" because he has other stuff he needs to do.

Well, I'm sitting on the fence in terms of continuing to provide tutoring. You know how they say, you can teach a man to fish and give him a new fishing pole, but you can't actually make him pick up the pole and actually fish, or he may sell the pole because...I don't why you would sell the pole. I can't figure it out. But I have a feeling this kind of thinking is what keeps people poor and downtrodden.

Honestly, I think you've done all you can do at this point, and you've got the patience of a saint for trying to help him for as long as you have. One of two things needs to happen at this stage - either the kid needs to realize his life is going to go nowhere doing what he's doing and develop a work ethic (unlikely, given his mother's enabling), or his mum needs to realize that she's not doing him any favours and light a fire under his arse (equally unlikely). I don't think his mum is going to realize this is a bad idea until he's 25, still living with her and still playing video games all day.

[SwordGuy]

Argh...

Don't toss more good money after bad.   They won't do it.   Unless something in that kid's mind or heart changes, he's just a lost soul.  Let him be lost on his own time and own dime.  Ditto with his parent(s).


Not your circus, not your monkeys.

[tralfamadorian]

I finally have a good one for this thread. Relative came by with toddler wearing prada shoes. *dead*

[Dicey]

I finally have a good one for this thread. Relative came by with toddler wearing prada shoes. *dead*

My grandbaby lives in Aspen. She got brand-name skis for Christmas...from the Sporting Goods Resale Store. Same place I bought DH a lululemon jacket for $20, then found $15 inside a small zippered pocket. They also have a great (3 story!) thrift shop right downtown. Mommy used to be a nanny, so she also gets super high-end hand-me-downs from rich former clients for zero dollars.
Now, if those Prada shoes still had price tags on them, that might be another story. But don't forget - doting grandparents are known to do stoopid things.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Argh...just need to vent...

The Background:
We pay for tutoring for a young family member who is at risk of failing high school because he stays up all night gaming, can’t wake up for school the next morning, lives in a volatile household, and his mom says “growing boys need their sleep” and doesn’t make him go to school. This kid recently (last year) got a high end gaming computer. He also has an older laptop, a tablet, and a smart phone. Mom is on government assistance and they live with grandma practically rent-free. Kid is currently doing online courses after failing out of grade nine because he is a delicate snowflake who can’t handle the rough highschool environment. We spend about $100/week on intensive tutoring for the kid to help him keep on top of his assignments because there’s no way this kid can manage a self-study program.

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook “so that he can study better and pass his courses”. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) it’s the computer’s fault because it’s too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) it’s the house’s fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldn’t work)
3) it’s the desk’s fault because the “desk isn’t good for writing on” (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if you’re doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

I have an update. I like posting here because you guys "get it", whereas I have to Explain The Obvious in real life because some people "don't get it".

Anyway, I was looking over bank statements because it's the end of the year and noticed that we haven't been paying the tutor for the past two weeks. We have been keeping in touch with the kid's mom on a weekly basis, and she never mentioned anything. So I reached out to the tutor to try to figure out what's going on. Turns out the mom stopped tutoring because the "kid is focusing on other subjects right now". I don't even know what that means because this tutor was responsible for helping him with ALL his subjects. Mom said that the 2+ hours of tutoring he was receiving was "too much for him to handle" because he has other stuff he needs to do. What other stuff?!?! The kid sleeps in until noon every day and then games for another good chunk of the day. ARGH!!! (Oh, and calling CPS is a no go because there isn't actually any abuse going on, and it was the public school that asked the kid to leave and do his lessons online, so technically he is still "in school", and even though his household has some stupid thinking patterns, it's actually quite stable. You can't call CPS because someone is stupid.).

No wonder the kid asked for a new laptop. It's to help him study better because he now doesn't have a tutor. He and his mom do not understand that having a new electronic will not help him with planning and organization, time management, etc. -- all those important executive functioning skills that help you hold a job and be an Independent and Successful human being.

Well, I'm sitting on the fence in terms of continuing to provide tutoring. You know how they say, you can teach a man to fish and give him a new fishing pole, but you can't actually make him pick up the pole and actually fish, or he may sell the pole because...I don't why you would sell the pole. I can't figure it out. But I have a feeling this kind of thinking is what keeps people poor and downtrodden.

/rant over

You can't help people; you can only help them help themselves. None of the people in this story are helping themselves.

[Nederstash]

I've posted about my oldest brother before. He has induced facepalms that would put Jean-Luc Picard to shame and he's currently prepping for the biggest mistake yet. He's 42, his girlfriend 44. He has a really bad work history, because, according to him, no one listens to his great ideas. He says he just can't work under a boss (this is probably true...). Anyway, after a string of jobs with some unemployment tossed in there, he's a self-employed manager. He has had a business in the past, that did well. By now he's been working as an independent manager, working for a big company, going on 3 years now. He's doing well, he's taking home 5k a month (after tax!) and his girlfriend around 4k a month.

He really wants to buy a house. He has no retirement saved - NONE at all. This house will be his retirement plan.
Being self-empoyed means he didn't qualify for a mortgage until the 3 year mark. That'll happen in the next few months, same for his girlfriend (also self-employed). I visited him recently, he's all giddy:

Him: The bank will let us pick something for a million!
Me: What, seriously?
Him: Yeah, that's the top mortgage we can afford.
Me: So, in what range are you going to search?
Him: *owlish blinking*
Me: I mean, you're not going for a full million, right? You wanted to pay it off for retirement?
Him: That's 25 years away, plenty of time to pay it down.
Me: ooo-kay. So what are you doing for a downpayment?
Him: We've been saving up for that.
Me: Good for you! For a house that price, I'm thinking you'll put down 20% or so? So... 200k?"
Him: *looks like I grew another head* N-no, not that much.
*awkward pause*
Him: You meant, how much we saved for closing costs? We'll have that covered.

You guys, I just couldn't... My brain gave a compiling error and just noped out. With their combined take home pay of 9k a month and the rent that's only 1200, I figured they'd be stashing. Even with 2k spending a month on top of their rent, they'd have been able to stash 200k in 3 years.

In hindsight, of course they didn't stash that much. There's 2 brand new cars, an Audi and a BMW. They go on weekend getaways every other weekend: Paris, London, Bruges, or some castle in the French or German countryside (the wine region of course!). That's every other weekend. (We live in the Netherlands btw, that's between the UK and Germany). For their actual holidays, 3 times a year, they do shit like cruises (most recently to Oman and Qatar I think?), or going to Dubai, Bali, Africa.

Of course they've got jack shit saved. And no way can they keep up that lifestyle with a 1 million euro chain around their neck. No way can they pay a mortgage off early or even save anything else for retirement. The only thing I can hope for is that he doesn't hit my parents up for a bailout again. There's still a 35k loan outstanding. Oh, and I can hope he keeps his job...

I feel shitty for posting this online but I can't actually discuss this with anyone who knows him. It's so frustrating but he won't take me seriously at all! I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall! AAARGH

[Dicey]

I see no reason for you to feel shitty, @Nederstash. It's not like you're naming names. This is a good place to vent.

[Cassie]

Maybe with no down payment the bank won’t loan them that much money.

[Roadrunner53]

Nederstash Your brother is able to bring home $5,000 after taxes but is this dumb with buying a million dollar house? At best he should start smaller and work up after he sees the costs of home ownership. He seems to like his freedom to travel so this will put a crimp in his lifestyle. He could have the best of both worlds if he would buy a modest home in good condition so he doesn't have to put much money into it. Buying a house is much more than plunking down the money to buy it. Things go wrong, things break down. Heating systems get old, ac gets old, appliances break. Yardwork requires equipment, or you need to hire someone to do the work...more money. Then has he even considered the taxes on the million dollar home? OMG!

Not sure how close you are to your brother but if you are, maybe you could write out several sensible scenario's to show him on paper how one scenario is going to drag him down to the gutter and another scenario will allow him the best of both worlds of a modest house that is affordable and allow for the travel he loves.

How can he be smart enough to make big bucks and is so clueless on buying a million dollar house. So many rich people have bought into buying lots of real estate only to find they end up bankrupt.

 

[Nederstash]

Thanks, guys! Felt good to vent, I needed that. I used to be close to my brother, at least until I started behaving like an adult (err.. 25 or so). My brother is 10 years older than me and we've always gotten along in the big brother-little sister dynamic. Ever since I really settled into adult life and began to have actual opinions on houses, finances, work etc, we became more like equals. I wasn't looking up to him anymore, I was challenging him on his ideas. I think that's when our relationship grew more distant. I suspect he might not be willing or able to grasp that he might be wrong and I might be right.

Family's weird, man. I'll give it another go, thanks for the suggestion @Roadrunner53. But that's my final try.

[Shivan]

I got a lottery ticket for Christmas. Mother-in-law says if I win, I need to add a room to my house. For months, she's been telling my wife things like "I think you'd be happier with some more room". We're all staying together for the next week and I'll need to bite my tongue from saying "OH I'M SORRY, IS MY 3-BR, 2400-SQ FOOT HOUSE NOT BIG ENOUGH FOR MY FAMILY OF FOUR? AT LEAST I DIDN'T LOSE MY HOUSE TO FORECLOSURE SIX YEARS AGO LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DIDN'T REMOVE VALUE FROM MY NEW HOUSE BY COMBINING TWO BEDROOMS INTO ONE LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DON'T HAVE THREE STORAGE BUILDINGS FULL OF CRAP LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I DON'T PAY 25% CREDIT CARD INTEREST LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I'M NOT SIXTY YEARS OLD AND WORKS LONG HOURS AND HAS A NEGATIVE NET WORTH LIKE YOU. IF YOU THINK ANYONE NEEDS ANOTHER ROOM FULL OF CRAP TO BE HAPPY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPINESS IS!"

[Dicey]

LMAO. That is a beautiful mustachian rant. You go, @Shivan!

[Cassie]

Shiva, your house is huge for 4 people. 5 of us in 1800 sq ft and we thought we had died and went to heaven:))