Relatives who just don't get it

[Roadrunner53]

My aunt and uncle (now deceased) collected antiques. They had some old house they moved out of and I believe it was such a junk hole and falling apart they had to get out. So they bought antiques (furniture) and stored them there. Last I heard the house had basically self destructed because of holes in the roof and other issues. So they spent money on these antiques, stored them in a junk hole and lost everything. Not to mention they held onto it so long they were too elderly to do anything with it before the house fell apart. They always had the mind set that the longer they held onto the stuff the more valuable it would become. Guess they didn't think about the roof leaking all over the furniture. Not to mention, the house was probably hellish hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter and the humidity in the summer. I would think most antique furniture should be stored in some kind of controlled temperatures to prevent warping, mold, mildew and water damage!

[ysette9]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

[Roadrunner53]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

Good plan on the furniture!

[Just Joe]

I know of two guys from different families and don't know each other. Each has same situation. Last surviving family member. Neither ever married. Both inherited everything in the entire family. Both an old family house full of everyone's stuff. And there it sits. These two guys are the lifetime caretakers for it all. Won't/can't part with it. They would both clear some money if they sold out but none of it is museum grade stuff, just regular stuff from several country families. Pots and pans, old appliances, furniture, old clothes.

Both are well off they could afford to travel a little, live in a comfortable modern home, and participate in their towns (and they do stay involved in their churches).

Makes me a sad to think about people trapped by stuff.

[ysette9]

And if they are the last of their lines, who cleans up the mess when they die?

[Roadrunner53]

I know of two guys from different families and don't know each other. Each has same situation. Last surviving family member. Neither ever married. Both inherited everything in the entire family. Both an old family house full of everyone's stuff. And there it sits. These two guys are the lifetime caretakers for it all. Won't/can't part with it. They would both clear some money if they sold out but none of it is museum grade stuff, just regular stuff from several country families. Pots and pans, old appliances, furniture, old clothes.

Both are well off they could afford to travel a little, live in a comfortable modern home, and participate in their towns (and they do stay involved in their churches).

Makes me a sad to think about people trapped by stuff.

Maybe the situation is so overwhelming they don't know where to begin. Seems if there is so much junk to go thru it would take a lifetime. These guys need to hire some kind of a clean out company or just hire two guys and get a dumpster and have them toss the obvious trash and maybe put some of the junk in a pile to determine if it is worth donating or selling. Someone needs to talk to these two guys and get them motivated to get the junk out of the house. Could be a fire hazard too.

[Sibley]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

That only works when the furniture is museum worthy. What my parents have is decidedly not.

[Sibley]

And if they are the last of their lines, who cleans up the mess when they die?

The executor, whomever that is. Either they tapped someone, or it'll end up going through probate court and they'll assign someone. Expenses generally paid out of the estate, then there are laws about what to do with assets if someone dies intestate.

[AlanStache]

Or if a good percent of the stuff is worth something then an estate sale can happen; someone would still need to deal with the junk stuff.

[Just Joe]

Both are very sentimental people.

[Threshkin]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

[AlanStache]

beanie baby: When this came up the other day I checked ebay and some are actually worth more than 10$, I was shocked.  No clue what percent of them are still worth something. 

[Jouer]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

Am I reading this right? Someone sold you an item for 10 cents and the item included 25 cents with it?

[FIRE@50]

Arbitrage...

[Threshkin]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

Am I reading this right? Someone sold you an item for 10 cents and the item included 25 cents with it?

Yup.  :)  The quarters were in full view.  AIR, she got about 50 of them.  TBH they may have been worth more intact but we didn't bother with the hassle of trying to find a buyer.  We just pocketed the quarters and gave away the BBs.  They are great gifts for young kids. 

[Just Joe]

I related to a relative that I was doing ebike maintenance this weekend. I don't ride daily but several times a week when the weather is fair.

Relative kept stubbornly trying to relate it to motorcycle ownership as if this ebike was a failed motorcycle. Can't go as far or as fast. I ought to get rid of the ebike and get a motorcycle. WTH?

This isn't the first time. We had this same conversation a couple of years ago too.

Maybe I'm supposed to buy a motorcycle and do weekend rides with the relative. I like motorcycles and owned them in the past. I just like my bicycle better. <sigh>

Far cheaper and nearly silent. I see more wildlife this way and see all sorts of things at 15 mph that I'd never notice at 45 mph.

[Raymond Reddington]

But, but, wait, how???

The math does not compute.

[Lanthiriel]

I need somewhere to vent and my husband and sisters are sick of hearing about it...

My mom is 54. She divorced my dad (a 30+ year federal employee) almost 10 years ago. While they were married, she was largely a SAHM but for maybe the last 10 years of their marriage, she worked a part-time job at an elementary school. After the divorce, she bought a house she couldn't afford that was 40 minutes from her job. Over the years, she lost child support for each of my sisters as they left for college, and alimony dropped off around when the last one left. She tried foster parenting to supplement her income, but it was "too hard." The last year she lived in the HCOL west coast suburb I grew up in, she was making $18/hr working 7 hour days during the 180-day school year. I recently found out that during that year my grandparents paid $10k to fix her roof, bought her a vacuum cleaner, and paid for her heat that winter because she "couldn't afford it" despite her telling me about all the times she went out with her friends to the casino.

She decided to move to rural North Carolina to be near my sister. She figured that because Indeed has dozens of low skill positions posted, she'd just walk right into a job. She sols her house and spent $40k on a truck and trailer because she wanted to camp across the US. This took three weeks and now she drives a large AWD truck everywhere and the trailer hasn't moved except between storage facilities since she arrived.

She got a shitty part-time job and put all of her money except $25k into buying a small house with about a $40k mortgage. The house needs a new roof that she still has not paid for and my sister is pretty sure that that $25k emergency fund is almost gone. She finally got a shitty full-time job that she hates after she realized that she can't work in the NC school system unless she has an AA (which you think she'd have looked into before moving). She is looking into finishing her AA FINALLY but is contemplating doing a certificate program even though she has 20 years of experience working in elementary schools and that's what she loves doing. I finally lost it on her and told her that she's been trying to take the easy way out for 10 years and she finally just needs to buck up and do what needs to be done even if it's "hard" and "takes longer." She is just about to head back to the west coast for two weeks of unpaid vacation because "she deserves it."

She is constantly talking about the things she buys--purses, furniture, lawn ornaments, things for my sister's in laws, Christmas presents. She makes $11/hr and has expensive benefits. She drove 80 miles/day round-trip in her big truck. As far as I know she has maybe $100k in retirement. She also I think has a small pension from her old school district job that will show up at some point. I don't know whether she's eligible for Social Security or not. I know my dad doesn't pay into it because of his federal job, but I'm not sure if her school job was also exempt. I know she's eligible for some of my dad's pension when he retires. She refuses to look into all of this for reasons that are beyond me, so she has NO IDEA what her retirement income will look like or when she might start receiving it. Every time I think I get a little bit of accurate information, she says something else that makes me think she's lying to me.

Her current level of spending is unsustainable and I don't know what I'm going to do when the first request for money comes in. My husband is vehemently against giving her money and I understand why. My dad tried to pay for her to get a teaching degree. Her dad did too. But she has always had a million reasons why she can't implement a long-term plan to make her life better. It's just been a series of band-aids that are clearly on the path to resulting in her being completely broke. I don't see why we should be responsible for maintaining her lifestyle when she won't put in the effort. Plus she's YOUNG. She could live another 40 years, and it's not fair to me that I will have to work more years because she didn't want to work them. This summer is literally the first summer she's worked IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

OK, that was a novel... Rant over. For now.

[Raymond Reddington]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.

[Roadrunner53]

I need somewhere to vent and my husband and sisters are sick of hearing about it...

My mom is 54. She divorced my dad (a 30+ year federal employee) almost 10 years ago. While they were married, she was largely a SAHM but for maybe the last 10 years of their marriage, she worked a part-time job at an elementary school. After the divorce, she bought a house she couldn't afford that was 40 minutes from her job. Over the years, she lost child support for each of my sisters as they left for college, and alimony dropped off around when the last one left. She tried foster parenting to supplement her income, but it was "too hard." The last year she lived in the HCOL west coast suburb I grew up in, she was making $18/hr working 7 hour days during the 180-day school year. I recently found out that during that year my grandparents paid $10k to fix her roof, bought her a vacuum cleaner, and paid for her heat that winter because she "couldn't afford it" despite her telling me about all the times she went out with her friends to the casino.

She decided to move to rural North Carolina to be near my sister. She figured that because Indeed has dozens of low skill positions posted, she'd just walk right into a job. She sols her house and spent $40k on a truck and trailer because she wanted to camp across the US. This took three weeks and now she drives a large AWD truck everywhere and the trailer hasn't moved except between storage facilities since she arrived.

She got a shitty part-time job and put all of her money except $25k into buying a small house with about a $40k mortgage. The house needs a new roof that she still has not paid for and my sister is pretty sure that that $25k emergency fund is almost gone. She finally got a shitty full-time job that she hates after she realized that she can't work in the NC school system unless she has an AA (which you think she'd have looked into before moving). She is looking into finishing her AA FINALLY but is contemplating doing a certificate program even though she has 20 years of experience working in elementary schools and that's what she loves doing. I finally lost it on her and told her that she's been trying to take the easy way out for 10 years and she finally just needs to buck up and do what needs to be done even if it's "hard" and "takes longer." She is just about to head back to the west coast for two weeks of unpaid vacation because "she deserves it."

She is constantly talking about the things she buys--purses, furniture, lawn ornaments, things for my sister's in laws, Christmas presents. She makes $11/hr and has expensive benefits. She drove 80 miles/day round-trip in her big truck. As far as I know she has maybe $100k in retirement. She also I think has a small pension from her old school district job that will show up at some point. I don't know whether she's eligible for Social Security or not. I know my dad doesn't pay into it because of his federal job, but I'm not sure if her school job was also exempt. I know she's eligible for some of my dad's pension when he retires. She refuses to look into all of this for reasons that are beyond me, so she has NO IDEA what her retirement income will look like or when she might start receiving it. Every time I think I get a little bit of accurate information, she says something else that makes me think she's lying to me.

Her current level of spending is unsustainable and I don't know what I'm going to do when the first request for money comes in. My husband is vehemently against giving her money and I understand why. My dad tried to pay for her to get a teaching degree. Her dad did too. But she has always had a million reasons why she can't implement a long-term plan to make her life better. It's just been a series of band-aids that are clearly on the path to resulting in her being completely broke. I don't see why we should be responsible for maintaining her lifestyle when she won't put in the effort. Plus she's YOUNG. She could live another 40 years, and it's not fair to me that I will have to work more years because she didn't want to work them. This summer is literally the first summer she's worked IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

OK, that was a novel... Rant over. For now.

Here is some information on Federal pension division. I hope your mother discussed it during the divorce proceedings: https://work.chron.com/divorced-spouses-rights-federal-employees-retirement-16909.html

Your mother sounds like a train wreck. Can your two sisters and you set up a meeting with your mom to discuss all these issues? You need to write an agenda of issues to present to her. Can you contact your father in regard to the pension? Maybe you could meet with your sisters to discuss Plan A, Plan B, Plan C.  Plans of action. Your mother is going to self destruct soon.

It is obvious she needs to get her AA and quickly. Can she take on line course while still working?
She needs to sell the truck and trailer and get a car good on gas.
She needs to stop spending money stupidly.
She needs to figure what money she will have for retirement.
Could she sell the house and find low income housing until she gets her AA?
Could she live with you or one of your sisters and pay a low rent till she gets her AA and a better job?

There is so much going on here not sure where she would start, but all doable IF she is willing to work on HERSELF! Not sure how you can force any of this on her but if you and your sisters confront her, maybe she will wake up.
Good luck and keep us updated!

[AlanStache]

I need somewhere to vent and my husband and sisters are sick of hearing about it...

My mom is 54. She divorced my dad (a 30+ year federal employee) almost 10 years ago. While they were married, she was largely a SAHM but for maybe the last 10 years of their marriage, she worked a part-time job at an elementary school. After the divorce, she bought a house she couldn't afford that was 40 minutes from her job. Over the years, she lost child support for each of my sisters as they left for college, and alimony dropped off around when the last one left. She tried foster parenting to supplement her income, but it was "too hard." The last year she lived in the HCOL west coast suburb I grew up in, she was making $18/hr working 7 hour days during the 180-day school year. I recently found out that during that year my grandparents paid $10k to fix her roof, bought her a vacuum cleaner, and paid for her heat that winter because she "couldn't afford it" despite her telling me about all the times she went out with her friends to the casino.

She decided to move to rural North Carolina to be near my sister. She figured that because Indeed has dozens of low skill positions posted, she'd just walk right into a job. She sols her house and spent $40k on a truck and trailer because she wanted to camp across the US. This took three weeks and now she drives a large AWD truck everywhere and the trailer hasn't moved except between storage facilities since she arrived.

She got a shitty part-time job and put all of her money except $25k into buying a small house with about a $40k mortgage. The house needs a new roof that she still has not paid for and my sister is pretty sure that that $25k emergency fund is almost gone. She finally got a shitty full-time job that she hates after she realized that she can't work in the NC school system unless she has an AA (which you think she'd have looked into before moving). She is looking into finishing her AA FINALLY but is contemplating doing a certificate program even though she has 20 years of experience working in elementary schools and that's what she loves doing. I finally lost it on her and told her that she's been trying to take the easy way out for 10 years and she finally just needs to buck up and do what needs to be done even if it's "hard" and "takes longer." She is just about to head back to the west coast for two weeks of unpaid vacation because "she deserves it."

She is constantly talking about the things she buys--purses, furniture, lawn ornaments, things for my sister's in laws, Christmas presents. She makes $11/hr and has expensive benefits. She drove 80 miles/day round-trip in her big truck. As far as I know she has maybe $100k in retirement. She also I think has a small pension from her old school district job that will show up at some point. I don't know whether she's eligible for Social Security or not. I know my dad doesn't pay into it because of his federal job, but I'm not sure if her school job was also exempt. I know she's eligible for some of my dad's pension when he retires. She refuses to look into all of this for reasons that are beyond me, so she has NO IDEA what her retirement income will look like or when she might start receiving it. Every time I think I get a little bit of accurate information, she says something else that makes me think she's lying to me.

Her current level of spending is unsustainable and I don't know what I'm going to do when the first request for money comes in. My husband is vehemently against giving her money and I understand why. My dad tried to pay for her to get a teaching degree. Her dad did too. But she has always had a million reasons why she can't implement a long-term plan to make her life better. It's just been a series of band-aids that are clearly on the path to resulting in her being completely broke. I don't see why we should be responsible for maintaining her lifestyle when she won't put in the effort. Plus she's YOUNG. She could live another 40 years, and it's not fair to me that I will have to work more years because she didn't want to work them. This summer is literally the first summer she's worked IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

OK, that was a novel... Rant over. For now.

Here is some information on Federal pension division. I hope your mother discussed it during the divorce proceedings: https://work.chron.com/divorced-spouses-rights-federal-employees-retirement-16909.html

Your mother sounds like a train wreck. Can your two sisters and you set up a meeting with your mom to discuss all these issues? You need to write an agenda of issues to present to her. Can you contact your father in regard to the pension? Maybe you could meet with your sisters to discuss Plan A, Plan B, Plan C.  Plans of action. Your mother is going to self destruct soon.

It is obvious she needs to get her AA and quickly. Can she take on line course while still working?
She needs to sell the truck and trailer and get a car good on gas.
She needs to stop spending money stupidly.
She needs to figure what money she will have for retirement.
Could she sell the house and find low income housing until she gets her AA?
Could she live with you or one of your sisters and pay a low rent till she gets her AA and a better job?

There is so much going on here not sure where she would start, but all doable IF she is willing to work on HERSELF! Not sure how you can force any of this on her but if you and your sisters confront her, maybe she will wake up.
Good luck and keep us updated!

Change will be hard because what she has been doing has been "working" for 54 years.  Make sure you and your husband understand how each other feels on this - preemptively bringing in a third party might not be a bad idea. 

[Sibley]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.

Yes, they're dumb. However, I need to pick up a cheap fake sitting deer for my cat. She like to rub noses with the statue, and her previous statue friend is gone. (yes, I'm a crazy cat lady. The white cat in my pic is the one who is missing her statue friend)

[Rural]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.

Yes, they're dumb. However, I need to pick up a cheap fake sitting deer for my cat. She like to rub noses with the statue, and her previous statue friend is gone. (yes, I'm a crazy cat lady. The white cat in my pic is the one who is missing her statue friend)

That's not a lawn ornament, it's a cat toy. Totally different.

[Step37]

@Lanthiriel that sounds like an absolutely horrible situation. I don’t know if you’ve ever checked out Playing with Fire UK’s journal, but she has (amazingly, against all odds) gotten her crazy-spending in-laws’ finances and spending under much better control. It’s a pretty incredible story to date, and may offer some good insights about how to handle your situation.

[Lanthiriel]

Thanks for the kind words and ideas, guys. I really needed to get the whole thing off my chest. You're right that it's probably time to take a more proactive approach. She's staying with me for a few days in a couple of weeks. Might be a good time to try to get all the cards on the table.

[Raymond Reddington]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.

Yes, they're dumb. However, I need to pick up a cheap fake sitting deer for my cat. She like to rub noses with the statue, and her previous statue friend is gone. (yes, I'm a crazy cat lady. The white cat in my pic is the one who is missing her statue friend)

That's not a lawn ornament, it's a cat toy. Totally different.

This. Seconded.

[SwordGuy]

@Lanthiriel ,  if you end up speaking to your mom, you will need to be REALLY blunt.  Subtle hints and cues will not work.

Unless you are really used to being REALLY blunt, you'll probably think you ARE being blunt when you're still too soft-worded to get thru the armor plating in your mom's skull.   Blunt will almost certainly be needed.   Toss in a lot of love with the message but ONLY if it's "Tough Love".   

"Mom, we love you.  We love you enough to tell you really important things that you need to know, even though they might hurt your feelings.   We do not want to hurt your feelings because we love you.   But this is so important we need to say it anyway."

"Mom, you are going broke.   It is your own fault.  No one else is to blame.   You can fix this yourself.  We expect you to fix this problem yourself.  We will NOT bail you out.  You will sink or swim based on your own choices.  This is not negotiable.   We will not endanger our own childrlen's financial future because you repeatedly make poor financial life choices. "


And, of course, you're making a choice to walk away if she chooses financial suicide.   It's the right choice.

"Mom, we are actually very good with money.  Because we love you, we are willing to share our knowledge with you so you know what changes in your behavior you need to make in order to fix this problem.   We hope you choose to fix the problem because it will be so much better for you if you do.   But that is your choice.   You need to adult up and face the financial facts, or you can choose to stay on your current path.  Either way, the result you get will be the one you chose and the one you earned by your actions."


If your message isn't at least that blunt, I'm wagering all she'll hear is , "blah blah Money (Oh, not getting any, nevermind) blah blah blah."

[Roadrunner53]

@Lanthiriel ,  if you end up speaking to your mom, you will need to be REALLY blunt.  Subtle hints and cues will not work.

Unless you are really used to being REALLY blunt, you'll probably think you ARE being blunt when you're still too soft-worded to get thru the armor plating in your mom's skull.   Blunt will almost certainly be needed.   Toss in a lot of love with the message but ONLY if it's "Tough Love".   

"Mom, we love you.  We love you enough to tell you really important things that you need to know, even though they might hurt your feelings.   We do not want to hurt your feelings because we love you.   But this is so important we need to say it anyway."

"Mom, you are going broke.   It is your own fault.  No one else is to blame.   You can fix this yourself.  We expect you to fix this problem yourself.  We will NOT bail you out.  You will sink or swim based on your own choices.  This is not negotiable.   We will not endanger our own childrlen's financial future because you repeatedly make poor financial life choices. "


And, of course, you're making a choice to walk away if she chooses financial suicide.   It's the right choice.

"Mom, we are actually very good with money.  Because we love you, we are willing to share our knowledge with you so you know what changes in your behavior you need to make in order to fix this problem.   We hope you choose to fix the problem because it will be so much better for you if you do.   But that is your choice.   You need to adult up and face the financial facts, or you can choose to stay on your current path.  Either way, the result you get will be the one you chose and the one you earned by your actions."


If your message isn't at least that blunt, I'm wagering all she'll hear is , "blah blah Money (Oh, not getting any, nevermind) blah blah blah."

I think on top of this oral presentation you should have some written out materials like:

Problem 1: Expensive vehicle and trailer, low gas mileage, long commute, cost of gas too much
Solution: Sell truck and trailer, buy economical non gas guzzler, can bank part of sale of truck and trailer

Problem 2: Need to figure out retirement money
Solution: Refer to divorce papers on ex's Federal Pension division agreement. Figure out any other retirement money available.

Problem 3: Not knowing what your money needs per month, per year
Solution: Need to list all monthly, yearly expenses to find out $$ needs and stop spending money on unnecessary gifts, clothing and accessories to be able to pay expenses

Put more facts and figures and $$ into each problem and solution to make your case. List out all the issues with problem and solution so she can see that even though there is a problem, there is a solution. Give her a copy and ask if you can help her with these issues. Sometimes we all need a shoulder to lean on.

You can point out that she is spending as an example 5 gallons of gas a day times 5 days a week that is 25 gallons times around $3 a gallon. That would be $75 a week on a salary of $11 an hour times 40 hours which is $440 a week minus taxes and minus  $75 equals X amount of dollars.

List it all out like this so she can see it in black and white.

I would also check into low income housing and have that information for her in black and white. Tell her the benefits of unloading the house because of the repairs, taxes and so forth. At least till she gets a better paying job. If she has a nest egg for retirement she might not qualify for low income housing. Maybe then she needs to find a cheap rent.

Good luck but get your ducks in a row because you may only have one shot at this.

No one wants to see their mother live under a bridge but sometimes you can't help those who won't help themselves.

[a286]

Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...

My dad always volun-told me that I would be supporting him in his old age, and giving him a job running the office of my vet clinic (I applied, didn't get in, and now mainly thank my lucky stars for that because that is some crazy debt for an over saturated field...). I was always like, haha, good joke... as this was in high school and college, but he always had a serious note to it...

Then I found out that when my parents took out PLUS loans when I went to college, he took the max amount every year (only needed maybe half) and he told me I owed him the $100k in PLUS loans, though he couldn't show where the other $50k he didn't need to take out went.

I think I dodged a major bullet not getting into vet school...

[Just Joe]

Good gosh. This forum always redefines "real problems". Hope life is being nicer to you these days.

[mm1970]

Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...

My dad always volun-told me that I would be supporting him in his old age, and giving him a job running the office of my vet clinic (I applied, didn't get in, and now mainly thank my lucky stars for that because that is some crazy debt for an over saturated field...). I was always like, haha, good joke... as this was in high school and college, but he always had a serious note to it...

Then I found out that when my parents took out PLUS loans when I went to college, he took the max amount every year (only needed maybe half) and he told me I owed him the $100k in PLUS loans, though he couldn't show where the other $50k he didn't need to take out went.

I think I dodged a major bullet not getting into vet school...

Wow, you guys make me feel lucky, in some ways.  Both my parents are gone (my dad was super cheap, managed to save $15k in 23 years living on a very small amount of Social Security, well under $1000 a month).  My stepfather was frugal and has plenty of money.  My MIL is doing just fine with her SS and her house, and my FIL has a girlfriend who can bankroll him.

[FireHiker]

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

Although the specific details differ, your mom and my mom have some similarities. The "good" news for me is that I made it clear any help from me would require transparency and accountability and, so far, that seems to have worked. I hope the same is true for you. I will be honest, it is a constant source of stress in the back of my head, wondering what happens when she's mooched off her sister past the point of sustainability (the current "plan"). Fortunately she is very intimidated by the normalcy and financial stability of my husband's family and there is no way she'll ask me for anything. I think. I have two siblings she's helped out in various ways over the years, so I assume she would go to them first, but who knows. With three kids of my own, my priority lies with providing them with a stable foundation and ensuring my husband and I will never be a financial burden to them. Good luck to you with your mom, and always feel free to vent here. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people here who get it...

[Just Joe]

Realistically we'll buy a duplex if we end up "hosting" any elders long term. Rent to the relative in one side, rent out the other side. Just more reminders that DW and I want to be debt free in our old age. Not buying new mortgages and new car payment books late in life. 

[redbird]

Ugh. Lanthiriel's story about their mom reminds me of DH's sister.

SIL is in her mid 30's, a single mom with 2 kids, and insists on running her own jewelry-making business that makes her below minimum wage. She has a bachelor's in business (paid for 100% by the in-laws, she never had student loans) and should be able to do pretty well with this job... but she barely markets her business. She seriously could make more money by going to work at Target or the grocery store or Home Depot or McDonalds's (yes, these places and more are hiring locally). The only reason she survives is 1) MIL (who is awesome at finances) is her free accountant/tax preparer and 2) MIL/FIL not only pay 100% of the mortgage on the nice house they bought for her, but support her in many other ways financially. MIL and FIL are retired, have no debts, and have the money to afford to pay for this but it just boggles my mind, especially because it feels like it has to be negatively affecting their enjoyment of their retirement. Like SIL will constantly call FIL over to paint her walls because the littlest one colored on them again, or she'll ask MIL to take the older one to his sports games all the time because she doesn't feel like it.

MIL and FIL are lovely, wonderful people and super intelligent. They just really, really love their 2 children and don't want to let them fail or struggle. It wasn't a problem with DH, who is independent and self-reliant. They paid for his bachelor's too, but once he graduated, he decided to put on his adulting pants and has paid for his own way in life since. But SIL takes advantage of their generosity... and unfortunately, they let her.

I really don't know what SIL is going to do when her enabling parents pass away. DH has flat out said he'd be happy to give her free advice, but he's not paying her a cent. He knows he'll never see it again and she'll just keep coming back for more. She's gotten away with this for all 30-something years of her life, so unless a big change happens (like her parents dying), then I don't think she'll ever stop doing what she's doing.

[Playing with Fire UK]

I'd refrain from offering to give her money under any terms. She's young enough to fix her situation herself - and also young enough to leech off of you long enough to ruin your marriage and finances.

+1 to this. It'll start with an emergency that feels like a one-off and reasonable enough; then the camel's nose is in the tent and it will never end. People who cannot control their own spending have an infinite capacity to spend other people's money.

I thought that a one-off cash injection was going to fix a problem. It really didn't, it just opened the floodgate of requests. I also thought it would support our relationship: I have never been so wrong. Lending and giving money and advice damaged so many relationships (with the in-laws, between me and my husband, with my sister-in-law). It was the worst money we ever spent. My story here.

[pachnik]

Ugh. Lanthiriel's story about their mom reminds me of DH's sister.

SIL is in her mid 30's, a single mom with 2 kids, and insists on running her own jewelry-making business that makes her below minimum wage. She has a bachelor's in business (paid for 100% by the in-laws, she never had student loans) and should be able to do pretty well with this job... but she barely markets her business. She seriously could make more money by going to work at Target or the grocery store or Home Depot or McDonalds's (yes, these places and more are hiring locally). The only reason she survives is 1) MIL (who is awesome at finances) is her free accountant/tax preparer and 2) MIL/FIL not only pay 100% of the mortgage on the nice house they bought for her, but support her in many other ways financially. MIL and FIL are retired, have no debts, and have the money to afford to pay for this but it just boggles my mind, especially because it feels like it has to be negatively affecting their enjoyment of their retirement. Like SIL will constantly call FIL over to paint her walls because the littlest one colored on them again, or she'll ask MIL to take the older one to his sports games all the time because she doesn't feel like it.

MIL and FIL are lovely, wonderful people and super intelligent. They just really, really love their 2 children and don't want to let them fail or struggle. It wasn't a problem with DH, who is independent and self-reliant. They paid for his bachelor's too, but once he graduated, he decided to put on his adulting pants and has paid for his own way in life since. But SIL takes advantage of their generosity... and unfortunately, they let her.

I really don't know what SIL is going to do when her enabling parents pass away. DH has flat out said he'd be happy to give her free advice, but he's not paying her a cent. He knows he'll never see it again and she'll just keep coming back for more. She's gotten away with this for all 30-something years of her life, so unless a big change happens (like her parents dying), then I don't think she'll ever stop doing what she's doing.

I have a friend whose sister is an older version of your SIL.  Friend's sister is mid-50's and her parents paid for a house, utilities etc. etc. and sister never worked a day in her life.  Mid-50's with no resume so probably unemployable at this point.  My friend resents her.  All the 'family help' went to one sibling and the other two sibs got very, very little.   

[a286]

Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...

My dad always volun-told me that I would be supporting him in his old age, and giving him a job running the office of my vet clinic (I applied, didn't get in, and now mainly thank my lucky stars for that because that is some crazy debt for an over saturated field...). I was always like, haha, good joke... as this was in high school and college, but he always had a serious note to it...

Then I found out that when my parents took out PLUS loans when I went to college, he took the max amount every year (only needed maybe half) and he told me I owed him the $100k in PLUS loans, though he couldn't show where the other $50k he didn't need to take out went.

I think I dodged a major bullet not getting into vet school...

Your father sounds like an asshole.

Yup, hes a damn piece of work. I'm just sorry it took 25 years of my to figure it out. He had me completely under his thumb. And he did shit to a lot of people not just me... took money from his in laws, screwed over his siblings, etc.

[calimom]

@Lanthiriel thank you for sharing that very personal story about your mom. I know you love her and care about her long term situation, and how it might impact your own savings and early retirement plans. Quite honestly, it should be a sticky on this forum for any woman who thinks being a SAHM forever is a good career plan. Not harassing on SAHMs but there are four possible scenarios that could happen with well-earning husbands. 1) You end up divorced and under skilled in your 40s. 2) Your husband could die (mine did, at age 37, when I was 31. The SAHM thing became a distant memory for me) 3) Your husband could lose their job or become downsized. It happens. 4) Your partner could become disabled by illness or accident.  And then what?

Women (and some men) put themselves in very dangerous economic circumstances when they leave or never paid employment. Yes, it's great to stay home when children are small. OMG daycare! Strangers raising our children!! But putting it quite bluntly, women lose traction. lose pension and SS benefits when they opt out of the workforce. A retirement of poverty or taking handouts from grown children is simply not worth it.

I wish your mom and you and your sisters the best as you navigate what seems to be a very  difficult situation. Your mother is about 10 years away from traditional retirement benefits, here's hoping she makes the most of those years.

[kelvin]

Recently started dating. It's been a few months, things are going swimmingly, and we have a fair amount in common regarding finances. (We're both fans of Canadian Couch Potato.)

Which led to the awkward rules regarding my family and talking about money:

1. Do not tell anyone in my family that you have investments + that your TFSA's are maxed out. My family have asked for money from SOs, barely-related inlaws, and casual acquaintances in the past.

2. Do not tell anyone in my family how much you paid for your house. My family are country bumpkins, they think your house is worth about 1/3 of its actual value because it's only 1400 sq ft.

3. My financial priorities going forward include a few strange categories.
-Paying off my debts, which were incurred while following advice from my parents.
-Parents will need assistance when they are elderly. I am willing to provide money, but not facetime. If they resume emotional blackmail + guilt trips, I will stop providing money.
-I have young cousins who are working very, very hard to break the cycle of poverty. I would like to enable them.

It's early enough in the relationship that none of these are dealbreakers yet. I wasn't going to let them sit, then surprise someone after we'd already become common-law.

[Cassie]

I think it is fine to ask if they want financial advice but if they don’t I would leave it alone. If they have hinted about needing money in the future I would make it clear that it won’t happen.

[Lanthiriel]

@Step37, thank you for recommending PlayingwithFire's journal. It inspired me to move my rant to my old journal so that I don't overtake this thread.

@calimom, re: being a SAH parent. It is a terrifying risk. One that I staunchly refused to take in large part because of my mother's experience. I love my husband and we've been together 12 years, but for many many many reasons, I would never want to have to trust him with my entire well being.

You all have been very helpful in wrapping my mind around talking to my mom when she's here next week. It kind of feels like not my business, but also that it could become my business very quickly. I am naturally VERY blunt and upfront, but with my mother that leads to an immediate breakdown. Wish me luck.   

[RetiredAt63]

@Lanthiriel thank you for sharing that very personal story about your mom. I know you love her and care about her long term situation, and how it might impact your own savings and early retirement plans. Quite honestly, it should be a sticky on this forum for any woman who thinks being a SAHM forever is a good career plan. Not harassing on SAHMs but there are four possible scenarios that could happen with well-earning husbands. 1) You end up divorced and under skilled in your 40s. 2) Your husband could die (mine did, at age 37, when I was 31. The SAHM thing became a distant memory for me) 3) Your husband could lose their job or become downsized. It happens. 4) Your partner could become disabled by illness or accident.  And then what?

Women (and some men) put themselves in very dangerous economic circumstances when they leave or never paid employment. Yes, it's great to stay home when children are small. OMG daycare! Strangers raising our children!! But putting it quite bluntly, women lose traction. lose pension and SS benefits when they opt out of the workforce. A retirement of poverty or taking handouts from grown children is simply not worth it.

This is so true.   I had a paying job my whole married life.  When I left Ex, some friends commented that if they wanted to leave their husbands (they didn't, but they were thinking "what if") they couldn't because they had no outside income and no pension.

Reminds me of the old saying "A woman is one man away from poverty"

[sapphail]

This is so true.   I had a paying job my whole married life.  When I left Ex, some friends commented that if they wanted to leave their husbands (they didn't, but they were thinking "what if") they couldn't because they had no outside income and no pension.

Reminds me of the old saying "A woman is one man away from poverty"

This is so true. After seeing my mother (who my violent prick of a father would not allow to work or drive, so she couldn't leave him), and many other women of her generation, be left destitute after their husbands ran out on them , I can't comprehend anyone still wanting to put themselves in such a vulnerable position. Even if he's a good and decent guy, what happens if he gets hit by a truck tomorrow? A life insurance payout might be enough to cover what's left of the mortgage, but you've still then got every other expense to worry about, especially if you've got kids. Bugger that.

[abpa]

My brother and his wife were subsidized by my father for their entire marriage until my father died. My brother's wife has not worked for money ever.  One of their children was profoundly disabled but died about 6 months after our father (it was a really bad year).  However, that was 8 years ago.  My brother has primarily worked at minimum wage jobs and is clueless about money.  At that time I was making about $100k/yr so he decided that I would become the new enabler.  That worked for a few years (honestly, I didn't mind helping out every once in a while).  They sold their mortgage free home, which they had purchased with the life insurance policy and purchased a homestead in southern Colorado and my brother got a job at a feed store, his wife stayed home with the kids (who were in high school at this time).  I started getting phone calls about not having enough money to buy food.  Finally, I suggested (as gently as I could) that if they can't afford to put food on the table, perhaps his wife should consider getting a job. 

It was as if I had suggested that they filet and bbq the children.  A week or so later, my brother began sending me a series of nasty (full of the "c" word and other abusive language) text messages, saying that I owed his wife an apology.  His wife called me "a dictator" (I don't think it means what she thinks it means).  Because of all this, my relationship with my brother is seriously damaged.

And he's never paid back a single loan.

Don't loan money to family if there is a pattern of poor money management.

[AlanStache]

re: abpa

I thought that homesteads typically grew food crops...

As has been said around here "No." is a complete sentence. 

[abpa]

I thought that homesteads typically grew food crops...

As has been said around here "No." is a complete sentence.

This incident was the end of the gravy train.  And yeah, a well planned homestead grows food crops.  Homesteads based on hare brained schemes do not.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

My brother and his wife were subsidized by my father for their entire marriage until my father died. My brother's wife has not worked for money ever.  One of their children was profoundly disabled but died about 6 months after our father (it was a really bad year).  However, that was 8 years ago.  My brother has primarily worked at minimum wage jobs and is clueless about money.  At that time I was making about $100k/yr so he decided that I would become the new enabler.  That worked for a few years (honestly, I didn't mind helping out every once in a while).  They sold their mortgage free home, which they had purchased with the life insurance policy and purchased a homestead in southern Colorado and my brother got a job at a feed store, his wife stayed home with the kids (who were in high school at this time).  I started getting phone calls about not having enough money to buy food.  Finally, I suggested (as gently as I could) that if they can't afford to put food on the table, perhaps his wife should consider getting a job. 

It was as if I had suggested that they filet and bbq the children.  A week or so later, my brother began sending me a series of nasty (full of the "c" word and other abusive language) text messages, saying that I owed his wife an apology.  His wife called me "a dictator" (I don't think it means what she thinks it means).  Because of all this, my relationship with my brother is seriously damaged.

And he's never paid back a single loan.

Don't loan money to family if there is a pattern of poor money management.

On the plus side, there's no more loaning of money after the c word comes out. It's an international rule of finance.

[Cassie]

I trusted my parents to take care of themselves and my kids trust me.  They had a modest pension, SS and savings. My dad died at 73 and my mom lived within her means, traveled , etc . She also prepaid all funeral expenses.   In her late 80’s she no longer wants to travel, lives within her means and would never take a dime from anyone.  When she passed she left no debts and no inheritance.  I am so glad she enjoyed her money.  We never worried because we knew she would adjust to her circumstances without burdening others. 

[87tweetybirds]

My in-laws...
At the beginning of our marriage when it became clear to me that they expected him to support them-even though they weren't employed, and aren't too old to be able to be employed- I convinced him that he had to put our family (marriage and children) first, and then could support them with a set amount, but that could not be sending entire pay check to support parents... he continues to do so, sending about $50/ month, with more for birthdays, and other gift giving occasions. I've accepted that this will be how it is until they pass away (MIL is 55, FIL 66, FIL has some health issues, but his mother is still living, MIL is a non-compliant diabetic, who's mother passed from complications from diabetes before she was 60)
My Sister in law is shaping up to take a leaf out of her parents book. She came to visit "us" (really to visit friends she'd made on a previous visit including a boyfriend), and she and boyfriend decided to get married. Knowing this will involve immigration paperwork after the wedding to change her status to a permanent resident, and having investigated how much this would cost (personal experience with the cost of immigration paperwork), we encouraged her to have basically city hall wedding, costing only the paperwork, and then be able to save the rest for the impending immigration costs. Boyfriends family convince them they'll be better off having a post wedding party because the groom's family give good wedding presents, often large amounts of cash.
We said, your choice, here's some $ for a wedding present to put toward the immigration costs. She told DH of others also giving cash presents, to a total of at least $1500.
She's now asking for help with the immigration costs. Says the costs will be about $2000, and they just don't have it (that's about what we figured it would be and told them so before they got married) and they need $800 for a deposit on a different apartment for when their current contract is up (they knew that before they signed the 4 month subletting agreement).
He works 2 jobs, pest control and works as a waiter at an upscale restaurant, and she babysits for some friends while waiting for her work visa. Between the two of them she says they're still unable to save. Is it horrible of me to think, maybe you should have saved like we said you'd need to? Maybe you can't afford to eat out several times a week, and lay off on the vacations, shopping for anything other than food etc.? I'm reluctant to help (she called it a loan, but I'm doubtful we'd ever get it back), fearing we'd become the bank of big brother when they have cash flow problems in the future, especially when I can see that their cash flow issues stem from a lack of budgeting, while trying to keep up with their friends (one of whom is bank rolled by daddy).

[Just Joe]

Not really finance but worth a head shake. My retired parents want to host some of the grandkids for the weekend.

They have just returned from the next state over (all day drive one way) to pickup my sibling's kids. We have been invited to send our younger child to their house for a sleep over. We live ~150 miles away but they won't come get our child. Only halfway. ??? Been like this for years. We've even had an episode where they will come as far as ten minutes away but not to our actual house. We live in a nice home and a nice easily accessible neighborhood.

Whatever. Doesn't matter we were planning to go all the way and check on the in-laws who live in the same town. Also we'll be local if the sleep over should go awry and our youngest wants to leave suddenly.

We don't get worked up over this sort of stuff anymore but WTH?