Relatives who just don't get it

[Guava]

It appears relative's disability through her employer was cancelled. We don't know specifics about their situation but have been able to gather that they gross at least $15k between his job, her disability, and the child support payments they get. We are guessing her disability on the low end of $5k per month. They have no idea how to make ends meet. We live in a LCOL area. She only has 3 more years of child support. They never saw their impending financial disaster coming. They even recently refinanced their credit card debt into their mortgage...for the third time...

I am curious what will come next.

Well, that situation worked itself out and it turns out only her insurance was cancelled. They get to keep the paycheck. We thought this would scare them into savings more but we just found out they replaced a perfectly good truck (that we helped them get for a killer deal way below market value) for a newer diesel with higher miles. They don't even drive the truck they already had because shortly after the husband got a company vehicle. I guess some people will never learn...

[WranglerBowman]

At the in-laws last night for dinner and they mentioned that their dryer broke, said when they opened the door it fell to the floor.  Looked at it for 10 seconds saw that the hinge catch was no longer hitting the catch point, bent the hinge back a little so it would catch...door fixed.  They said "O thanks, but the new dryer is coming tomorrow...and we paid Sears to take the old one away".  I tried not to look down on them but now their perfectly good dryer will be going to the scrap yard... and it drives me nuts...why are people so damn wasteful...

Could you have paid them the disposal fee and then resold the unit for more yourself? Also, it's possible that Sears will refurbish/resell  or sell it to someone who will, so it may not be a complete waste after all.

I got my washer/dryer from a guy that was a contractor for BestBuy to deliver appliances.  Seems lots of people are happy for him to 'dispose of' there nearly perfect 'old' appliances when they get new ones.  He then puts 10$ of parts into them and 20 minutes of time before selling them on CL.  300$ delivered & set up!

I felt bad doing this recently.  My 10y/o washing machine broke (would often fail to spin or agitate so clothes weren't getting clean or dry).  I hopped on the internet to see if there was a clear-cut fix, and some googling said "no not really".  So I got some tools and went down to take it apart, but something stopped me.  We were days away from having a newborn baby (and the resulting laundry needs) and I figured at 10 years old, even if I fixed this, how long is it going to last?  It could be another 10 years, or it could be six months, or it could be that I threw $100 in parts at it and couldn't fix it.  So I said fuck it and spent $350 on a new one.  Had we not been about to have a newborn it would've been a different decision, but I just didn't need that stress right then.  Oh well.

I absolve you of this behaviour. This is what money is for. For solving genuine problems for which money is the answer.

Yes, I could have saved this dryer from the scrap yard but I have so much going on with work, a newborn, farming, a hundred hobbies, etc...  I needed to just let this one go, but it's still eating me up inside that it was wasted.  I just wanted to pick it up and list it for free so it goes to a good home and not the scrap yard.  I know someone would have been by within the hour to pick it up, I just literally don't have that time right now. 

To make the story even better the guys who "installed" the dryer did not connect the vent on the back so when MIL went to use it the hot humid air was filling her laundry room.  She called them about 2 hours after they installed it Friday morning and they said they couldn't get back to fix it till Tuesday...  I think they're kind of starting to understand why I do everything myself...

[Cassie]

Medicaid rules vary by state. It used to totally impoverish the surviving spouse but some protections have been added.

[iris lily]

Like my spouse's middle class grandparents "sold" their house to their kids for $1.  When it came time to go into a home, it was protected.  It was their only inheritance - what little money was left was taken by Medicaid.  There are interesting parts about it all, when it comes to philosophy.  Really wealthy people can set up trusts and such to protect assets, and are unlikely to end up in a Medicaid home also.

Medicaid has a five-year look-back provision. If your spouse's grandparents sold their house less than five years before needing to apply for Medicaid, that sale would've been overturned (or rather, the kids would've had to pay the home's value back to the grandparents, and the grandparents would've had to spend down that money before they qualified for Medicaid). The same is true of trusts and basically any transaction where money leaves the pockets of the person who later seeks Medicaid.

It was way more than 5 years.  Probably at least 10, if not 20.

Not all states act on taking assets. also, if it was that long ago the lookback period could have been different.Or non existant.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.

It wouldn't destroy surrogacy at all. I haven't seen the decision but the news articles I saw said that the judge concluded both that the sperm donor wasn't the father, in part because he had little or no contact with the child, and that the mother's former partner was the other legal mother. So my guess is the ramifications of the decision are only relevant where the woman who gets pregnant with donor sperm has a spouse or partner she intends to be the co-parent. In other words once the kid has two legal parents (or people who should be considered legal parents), of whatever gender, the state can't go after a third person for child support.

As for surrogacy, the overwhelming majority of surrogacy in America is gestational surrogacy, meaning that the surrogate isn't the one whose eggs are used. The intended mother or an egg donor provides the eggs. That requires IVF; it's totally impossible to do without a doctor. So a case based on "there was no doctor involved so you're the dad" has no bearing on 99.99999% of the surrogacy cases out there.

Good news or bad news for poly groups, though?

[kayvent]

In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.

It wouldn't destroy surrogacy at all. I haven't seen the decision but the news articles I saw said that the judge concluded both that the sperm donor wasn't the father, in part because he had little or no contact with the child, and that the mother's former partner was the other legal mother. So my guess is the ramifications of the decision are only relevant where the woman who gets pregnant with donor sperm has a spouse or partner she intends to be the co-parent. In other words once the kid has two legal parents (or people who should be considered legal parents), of whatever gender, the state can't go after a third person for child support.

As for surrogacy, the overwhelming majority of surrogacy in America is gestational surrogacy, meaning that the surrogate isn't the one whose eggs are used. The intended mother or an egg donor provides the eggs. That requires IVF; it's totally impossible to do without a doctor. So a case based on "there was no doctor involved so you're the dad" has no bearing on 99.99999% of the surrogacy cases out there.

Good news or bad news for poly groups, though?

Tangentially related. In my province of Canada if a man has primary custody, the biological mother doesn't work, and the biological mother has a husband or common-law partner who does, the spouse/partner of the non-custodial parent has to pay child support.

[BTDretire]

I just need to vent.....I have a brother who moved to a lower COL area to start a family - proceeded to buy a $300k McMansion because they "need" the space for said future family + "need" to be in the absolute best school district. This on top of owning 2 10 year old vehicles purchased a few years back with 10 year loans + over $100k in student loans  (but they will be forgiven in 20 years so it doesn't matter), $30k in CC debt. OMG!

They didn't even get approved for the full $300k mortgage because of debt + income levels (probably $90k a year combined) so they borrowed $100k from family (NOT ME!). I get heart palpitations thinking about their financial situation while they sip on $10 cocktails every weekend and splurge constantly on lattes.  How on earth did we come from the same family?

I feel this way about my sister (HOW are we related?) when it comes to finances. She and her husband just think it's an income problem. When I have tried to point out that it's primarily a spending problem, I get very little traction. The good news is, their income is on the upswing, they're getting caught up on bills and *should* be able to start paying back the 16k they owe me pretty soon... sigh. Let's hope that some shiny new thing or food delivery service doesn't take precedence.

 OH! you missed a chance to point out the 16K is one of the bills the need to get caught up on.

[BTDretire]

I mean, I also understand the desire to leave money to your heirs.  I really do.  But dang it, what's the point of having the money if you aren't using it to make yourself comfortable in your old age?  Is it okay to burden ALL taxpayers to leave your kids money? 

I understand and basically agree that you shouldn't be able shift the burden to taxpayers,
On the other hand,
What if you have two families that average $49,000 as yearly income, both families have two kids.
 Over 35 years one couple lives frugaly and saves $1.2 million, the other buys a higher cost home,
eats out often, vacations,  buys new cars,and spends their money on unneeded items.

 Why should the frugal family get any less government benefits than the wasteful family?
Why subsidize those that waste their income?

[Step37]

[quote author=Step37 link=topic=31172.msg1564963#msg1564963 date=1495679826

I feel this way about my sister (HOW are we related?) when it comes to finances. She and her husband just think it's an income problem. When I have tried to point out that it's primarily a spending problem, I get very little traction. The good news is, their income is on the upswing, they're getting caught up on bills and *should* be able to start paying back the 16k they owe me pretty soon... sigh. Let's hope that some shiny new thing or food delivery service doesn't take precedence.

 OH! you missed a chance to point out the 16K is one of the bills the need to get caught up on.
[/quote]

Haha! She actually asked me last week what the total amount they owe me is, so I know it's not forgotten. But yeah, almost two years now. They must be working on a plan... meanwhile, the interest accrues.

[kayvent]

I mean, I also understand the desire to leave money to your heirs.  I really do.  But dang it, what's the point of having the money if you aren't using it to make yourself comfortable in your old age?  Is it okay to burden ALL taxpayers to leave your kids money? 

I understand and basically agree that you shouldn't be able shift the burden to taxpayers,
On the other hand,
What if you have two families that average $49,000 as yearly income, both families have two kids.
 Over 35 years one couple lives frugaly and saves $1.2 million, the other buys a higher cost home,
eats out often, vacations,  buys new cars,and spends their money on unneeded items.

 Why should the frugal family get any less government benefits than the wasteful family?
Why subsidize those that waste their income?

Back in 2015 my provincial government released a budget that removed a certain benefit; basically they means tested an elderly medical care benefit. It didn't go over well and the government quickly reversed their decision.

It was a bad choice for the same reasons your listed, it penalized savers, and for me in particular I found it awful because without any notice a key part of the cost formula for retirees was changed.

[bigalsmith101]

It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

[marielle]

It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My (future) in-laws did the same thing. My boyfriend and I each got a $50 visa giftcard for our birthdays, it was $6 each to activate. I don't get it, because they're already at the store and could just get cash back!? I think it's more about appearances to them, giving cash would seem "improper".

[RWD]

It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My (future) in-laws did the same thing. My boyfriend and I each got a $50 visa giftcard for our birthdays, it was $6 each to activate. I don't get it, because they're already at the store and could just get cash back!? I think it's more about appearances to them, giving cash would seem "improper".

Weird. You think it would be more impolite to essentially say: "We could have given you $56 but instead gave you $50 and burned the other $6."

[cheapass]

It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My (future) in-laws did the same thing. My boyfriend and I each got a $50 visa giftcard for our birthdays, it was $6 each to activate. I don't get it, because they're already at the store and could just get cash back!? I think it's more about appearances to them, giving cash would seem "improper".

Weird. You think it would be more impolite to essentially say: "We could have given you $56 but instead gave you $50 and burned the other $6."

I remember seeing a youtube video by a couple of economists who described how giving gifts in general is a very inefficient exercise. If a relative and I exchange gifts worth $50 and I receive something I would have only paid $20 or $25 or maybe $0 for, well shit I just lost money. It seems that giving gifts is more about the procedure and ritual than anything else.

Really, I'd just prefer to have cash. Or VTSAX. So I can grow my "freedom fund" faster.

[zolotiyeruki]

I remember seeing a youtube video by a couple of economists who described how giving gifts in general is a very inefficient exercise. If a relative and I exchange gifts worth $50 and I receive something I would have only paid $20 or $25 or maybe $0 for, well shit I just lost money. It seems that giving gifts is more about the procedure and ritual than anything else.

Really, I'd just prefer to have cash. Or VTSAX. So I can grow my "freedom fund" faster.

It's absolutely correct, to the point where DW and I don't bother with anniversary/Valentine's Day/Mother's Day/Father's Day gifts, and are very careful about Christmas and birthdays.  Among me and my siblings, we rotate gift giving each year, and several people have started either A) giving the gift of time (i.e. I'm coming to your house to do whatever you need for a few days, whether it be helping finish your basement, mowing the lawn, washing your dishes, babysitting the kids, whatever), or B) asking specifically what gifts would be appreciated, or C) gifting a (pre-approved) membership to a museum/zoo/aquarium/other attraction.

[mtn]

I remember seeing a youtube video by a couple of economists who described how giving gifts in general is a very inefficient exercise. If a relative and I exchange gifts worth $50 and I receive something I would have only paid $20 or $25 or maybe $0 for, well shit I just lost money. It seems that giving gifts is more about the procedure and ritual than anything else.

Really, I'd just prefer to have cash. Or VTSAX. So I can grow my "freedom fund" faster.

It's absolutely correct, to the point where DW and I don't bother with anniversary/Valentine's Day/Mother's Day/Father's Day gifts, and are very careful about Christmas and birthdays.  Among me and my siblings, we rotate gift giving each year, and several people have started either A) giving the gift of time (i.e. I'm coming to your house to do whatever you need for a few days, whether it be helping finish your basement, mowing the lawn, washing your dishes, babysitting the kids, whatever), or B) asking specifically what gifts would be appreciated, or C) gifting a (pre-approved) membership to a museum/zoo/aquarium/other attraction.

My brother has been doing this (A) for me recently--he's not been in a position to give gifts, but has been changing all my guitar strings, giving me coffee (free from his work, no he's not stealing), or put together my grill for me. Frankly, I appreciate that a lot more than something I'll probably just turn around or sell later.

My wife gets annoyed when I tell her I want a nice bottle of bourbon for my birthday or Christmas, but frankly that is what I want--something I wouldn't buy for myself but I still want.

[Vindicated]

My brother has been doing this (A) for me recently--he's not been in a position to give gifts, but has been changing all my guitar strings, giving me coffee (free from his work, no he's not stealing), or put together my grill for me. Frankly, I appreciate that a lot more than something I'll probably just turn around or sell later.

My wife gets annoyed when I tell her I want a nice bottle of bourbon for my birthday or Christmas, but frankly that is what I want--something I wouldn't buy for myself but I still want.

The bolded part is key.  There are many items I tell my Wife I'd like, but would never buy.  So, when I think of them, I text her.  I hope she makes a list. :)

For Father's Day, she gave me money for a haircut.  She didn't like how I cut it myself last time, so maybe it was a gift for herself too!

I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

[bigalsmith101]

It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My wife's family is very gift centered. They love getting each other gifts. So fathers day rolled around the weekend before our anniversary, and everyone piled gifts on my father in law. My father wasn't even in town. I called him the day before and told him happy 38yr anniversary, and happy fathers day as well. I see him regularly, he doesn't need a gift and tells me as much.

We gave my father in law a case of golf balls and $40 cash money, so he can go golfing, which he enjoys doing. We're the only ones that will give cash. EVERY ONE of my in-laws will get a gift card and pay the fee before gifting cash.

To top it all off, there is a chance this gift card was purchased via a credit card that may or may not get paid off at the end of the month. It's insane.

And the two of us, are the only members of either of our families that is married with dual income, no children, and NO debt. I.E, we have more disposable income than any of them besides my parents. My only hope is that they feel good to have given us this gift, but $40 would have been sufficient! Or the 4 of us could have gone out to dinner, and all eaten for $100.

[Dollar Slice]

I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

OP specifically said it's free, not stolen. He probably works someplace like Starbucks, where free coffee is a perk.

[Vindicated]

I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

OP specifically said it's free, not stolen. He probably works someplace like Starbucks, where free coffee is a perk.

I actually worked at Starbucks and that's what I was thinking of.  Coffee is free to employees while working, and they can take a drink with them after work.  However, handing out freebies to friends or family is a big no-no.

You get a free bag of coffee or box of k-cups every week, and I doubt anyone uses it all in a week.  So, if he's giving those weekly bags of coffee away, because he doesn't want them, I'd think that'd be acceptable.

[blue mutant]

Tangentially related. In my province of Canada if a man has primary custody, the biological mother doesn't work, and the biological mother has a husband or common-law partner who does, the spouse/partner of the non-custodial parent has to pay child support.

What province is this?

[marielle]

It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My wife's family is very gift centered. They love getting each other gifts. So fathers day rolled around the weekend before our anniversary, and everyone piled gifts on my father in law. My father wasn't even in town. I called him the day before and told him happy 38yr anniversary, and happy fathers day as well. I see him regularly, he doesn't need a gift and tells me as much.

We gave my father in law a case of golf balls and $40 cash money, so he can go golfing, which he enjoys doing. We're the only ones that will give cash. EVERY ONE of my in-laws will get a gift card and pay the fee before gifting cash.

Sounds exactly like my in-laws. They take gift-giving way too seriously. MIL specifically has mentioned in the past that she doesn't want gifts, she just wants to spend time with her kids. But then she got extremely upset and cried when she didn't get anything for mother's day from her son a couple years ago. Holidays in general are a BIG DEAL. We celebrated Easter with them and some family friends the Friday before Easter, then she was upset that we couldn't celebrate on Sunday as well. And she was basically making plans as if we had no choice in the matter. It's not, "Hey, would you like to come over for Easter?". Instead she says, "No one else is around on Sunday for Easter, so looks like it's just us!" Yeah...no. That's not how a respectful adult relationship works.

[mtn]

I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

OP specifically said it's free, not stolen. He probably works someplace like Starbucks, where free coffee is a perk.

I actually worked at Starbucks and that's what I was thinking of.  Coffee is free to employees while working, and they can take a drink with them after work.  However, handing out freebies to friends or family is a big no-no.

You get a free bag of coffee or box of k-cups every week, and I doubt anyone uses it all in a week.  So, if he's giving those weekly bags of coffee away, because he doesn't want them, I'd think that'd be acceptable.

Not Starbucks, but yeah--he gets a pound of free coffee a week and never uses all of it, since he works about 7 days a week at the shop and can make it better there than at home. I've been in there before and the owner has tossed me a bag when he figured out who's brother I was.

[Vindicated]

I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

OP specifically said it's free, not stolen. He probably works someplace like Starbucks, where free coffee is a perk.

I actually worked at Starbucks and that's what I was thinking of.  Coffee is free to employees while working, and they can take a drink with them after work.  However, handing out freebies to friends or family is a big no-no.

You get a free bag of coffee or box of k-cups every week, and I doubt anyone uses it all in a week.  So, if he's giving those weekly bags of coffee away, because he doesn't want them, I'd think that'd be acceptable.

Not Starbucks, but yeah--he gets a pound of free coffee a week and never uses all of it, since he works about 7 days a week at the shop and can make it better there than at home. I've been in there before and the owner has tossed me a bag when he figured out who's brother I was.

Due to this new evidence in your favor, my investigation is now closed.  Carry on :)

[Dezrah]

I just want to join the “relatives give us terrible gifts” ranting. 

My FIL is the worst at this.  He keeps buying us toys.  Literal children toys.  Items include foam swords, Rock-em-Sock-em  Robots, a piano keyboard mat.  We have a 900 sqft apartment.  Luxurious by Mustachian standards but there is barely enough room for the crap we already own, never mind adding extra junk.  We’ve repeatedly asked him to stop.  We’ve even compromised by asking for consumables.  Nope, we keep getting Star Wars light-up pens and Etch-a-Sketch pads.  We’re in our 30s, no kids.  I’ve stopped being gracious about it.  Everything gets returned the day after.

[Cookie78]

I just want to join the “relatives give us terrible gifts” ranting. 

My FIL is the worst at this.  He keeps buying us toys.  Literal children toys.  Items include foam swords, Rock-em-Sock-em  Robots, a piano keyboard mat.  We have a 900 sqft apartment.  Luxurious by Mustachian standards but there is barely enough room for the crap we already own, never mind adding extra junk.  We’ve repeatedly asked him to stop.  We’ve even compromised by asking for consumables.  Nope, we keep getting Star Wars light-up pens and Etch-a-Sketch pads.  We’re in our 30s, no kids.  I’ve stopped being gracious about it.  Everything gets returned the day after.

That would drive me mad! Is he trying to be funny and/or drop hints about kids? Brutal

[marielle]

I just want to join the “relatives give us terrible gifts” ranting. 

My FIL is the worst at this.  He keeps buying us toys.  Literal children toys.  Items include foam swords, Rock-em-Sock-em  Robots, a piano keyboard mat.  We have a 900 sqft apartment.  Luxurious by Mustachian standards but there is barely enough room for the crap we already own, never mind adding extra junk.  We’ve repeatedly asked him to stop.  We’ve even compromised by asking for consumables.  Nope, we keep getting Star Wars light-up pens and Etch-a-Sketch pads.  We’re in our 30s, no kids.  I’ve stopped being gracious about it.  Everything gets returned the day after.

My boyfriend's grandma does this! She gets him and all the cousins literal kid's toys. Like kids RC cars. And no, not the awesome RC cars that people build as a hobby. We donate them on the Facebook freecycle, some people have been very grateful. He says one of the cousins actually plays with some of the stuff, which is enabling her... They're all 25-35 years old.

[MoMan]

I hate giving presents, I hate getting presents, I hate the whole idea of presents. It's not a present if it's for a "present-giving holiday", it's just a piece of obligatory crap. It's not thoughtful, no matter what it is. You bought it because you have to buy something because that time of the calendar has rolled around again. The exchange of material goods at set times is a fucking ridiculous thing to do in this day and age, and it drives me ballistic that it's accelerating.
 

Wow, you are my soulmate!!

Several years ago, I decided I was fed up with the whole bullshit of Christmas gifts and stopped buying them cold turkey for everyone, including my wife. (I can do this because we don't have kids, otherwise my position would be untenable). Every year we would load the car/SUV to the gills and trek to MILs house. There, the tree would be mostly obscured because of the mountain of presents. I saw it as a gross orgy of consumerism. The nieces and nephews didn't give a shit what was in the box; it was merely the thrill of ripping the paper off and tearing the box open, do a cursory survey of the contents and then it's on to the next box.

Since I stopped buying, a number of people have eventually followed my lead (at least as far as not buying me anything) including the wife, my family, co-workers. For me, it is a massive relief not to have to think up some new crap to dump on someone else. I gleefully watch the news reports about frantic Christmas shoppers as the deadline approaches. It's great! (and it hasn't hurt my bank account either).

[BDWW]

I hate giving presents, I hate getting presents, I hate the whole idea of presents. It's not a present if it's for a "present-giving holiday", it's just a piece of obligatory crap. It's not thoughtful, no matter what it is. You bought it because you have to buy something because that time of the calendar has rolled around again. The exchange of material goods at set times is a fucking ridiculous thing to do in this day and age, and it drives me ballistic that it's accelerating.
 

Wow, you are my soulmate!!

Several years ago, I decided I was fed up with the whole bullshit of Christmas gifts and stopped buying them cold turkey for everyone, including my wife. (I can do this because we don't have kids, otherwise my position would be untenable). Every year we would load the car/SUV to the gills and trek to MILs house. There, the tree would be mostly obscured because of the mountain of presents. I saw it as a gross orgy of consumerism. The nieces and nephews didn't give a shit what was in the box; it was merely the thrill of ripping the paper off and tearing the box open, do a cursory survey of the contents and then it's on to the next box.

Since I stopped buying, a number of people have eventually followed my lead (at least as far as not buying me anything) including the wife, my family, co-workers. For me, it is a massive relief not to have to think up some new crap to dump on someone else. I gleefully watch the news reports about frantic Christmas shoppers as the deadline approaches. It's great! (and it hasn't hurt my bank account either).

I think I have most of the family trained now. If you must get me a gift, make it consumable. My mother gave me a huge, like 14x11 x 4 deep, lasagna for christmas. It definitely ranked up there as an awesome gift.

[Cookie78]

I hate giving presents, I hate getting presents, I hate the whole idea of presents. It's not a present if it's for a "present-giving holiday", it's just a piece of obligatory crap. It's not thoughtful, no matter what it is. You bought it because you have to buy something because that time of the calendar has rolled around again. The exchange of material goods at set times is a fucking ridiculous thing to do in this day and age, and it drives me ballistic that it's accelerating.
 

Wow, you are my soulmate!!

Several years ago, I decided I was fed up with the whole bullshit of Christmas gifts and stopped buying them cold turkey for everyone, including my wife. (I can do this because we don't have kids, otherwise my position would be untenable). Every year we would load the car/SUV to the gills and trek to MILs house. There, the tree would be mostly obscured because of the mountain of presents. I saw it as a gross orgy of consumerism. The nieces and nephews didn't give a shit what was in the box; it was merely the thrill of ripping the paper off and tearing the box open, do a cursory survey of the contents and then it's on to the next box.

Since I stopped buying, a number of people have eventually followed my lead (at least as far as not buying me anything) including the wife, my family, co-workers. For me, it is a massive relief not to have to think up some new crap to dump on someone else. I gleefully watch the news reports about frantic Christmas shoppers as the deadline approaches. It's great! (and it hasn't hurt my bank account either).

I think I have most of the family trained now. If you must get me a gift, make it consumable. My mother gave me a huge, like 14x11 x 4 deep, lasagna for christmas. It definitely ranked up there as an awesome gift.

Agreed with all of the above. Luckily my family agrees for the most part. No mother's/father's day or birthday gifts. Occasionally siblings draw names at Christmas for gifts, if we are all in agreement, or gift homemade consumables. Parents do give and get small gifts at Christmas. And lasagna would be a most appreciated gift!!

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

I get that people don't want gifts, but there's also such a thing as being gracious and accepting a gift in the spirit in which it was given, whether you like it or not. Some of the posters here sound quite rude and ungrateful. Get over it. Your relatives are trying to how you they care in their own way. Much like you try to show them you care in your own way, which they might not always appreciate.

[better late]

I just want to join the “relatives give us terrible gifts” ranting. 

My FIL is the worst at this.  He keeps buying us toys.  Literal children toys.  Items include foam swords, Rock-em-Sock-em  Robots, a piano keyboard mat.  We have a 900 sqft apartment.  Luxurious by Mustachian standards but there is barely enough room for the crap we already own, never mind adding extra junk.  We’ve repeatedly asked him to stop.  We’ve even compromised by asking for consumables.  Nope, we keep getting Star Wars light-up pens and Etch-a-Sketch pads.  We’re in our 30s, no kids.  I’ve stopped being gracious about it.  Everything gets returned the day after.

This is similar to my husband's family--they insist on giving toys and "gag" gifts. 

[shelivesthedream]

I get that people don't want gifts, but there's also such a thing as being gracious and accepting a gift in the spirit in which it was given, whether you like it or not. Some of the posters here sound quite rude and ungrateful. Get over it. Your relatives are trying to how you they care in their own way. Much like you try to show them you care in your own way, which they might not always appreciate.

I'm the one who posted the anti-gift rant way upthread that people are quoting again. Present-giving just reared it ugly head again for Fathers Day this past Sunday.

I'll admit, I forgot it was Fathers Day until Facebook reminded me around 10am. Oh shit, I think, and order my father a book I think he'll like on Amazon prime as I'm going round on Wednesday and I can bring it then. I ring up my parents house and my mother answers. What's the first thing she says? "Oh, I just finished telling Daddy that no card or little parcel has arrived for him..." I explain that I haven't been able to post it (just moved house). I am forgiven. I get onto my father and say I'll bring his present round on Wednesday. "You don't need to get me a present," he says. I believe him. So I, who does not want to buy a present just because it's a particular Sunday in June, have to buy my father a present, who does not need anything else in his life or want anything that he cannot immediately buy for himself, in order to not upset my mother. This is the present-giving bullshit I am talking about.

I don't especially want to receive presents either. My ideal birthday/Christmas "haul" would be a book and a box of chocolates and some fancy shower gel. That's all the little luxuries I could want that would only cause delight and not hassle or future obligation to keep forever. But I have to ask for a "proper" present, and then keep it for at least a year, and provide updates on how I'm using it. Present-giving is 100% my mother's love language, but it is not mine and I don't like it when her desire to give me things causes me to have to do work. I cannot just get rid of things I don't really want because she would be hurt.

I am working on this. I am gradually de-escalating and de-personalising my family present-giving (to reduce stress for me). My brother and I have stopped doing presents. My parents either get a book or chocolates unless I happen across something I really know they'll like. I'm working on giving my mother other ways to show she cares and being demonstrably appreciative of them. I don't think I'm ungrateful - just extremely frustrated that my mother's wishes impose such obligations on all of the rest of us.

[Rowellen]

I get that people don't want gifts, but there's also such a thing as being gracious and accepting a gift in the spirit in which it was given, whether you like it or not. Some of the posters here sound quite rude and ungrateful. Get over it. Your relatives are trying to how you they care in their own way. Much like you try to show them you care in your own way, which they might not always appreciate.

I'm the one who posted the anti-gift rant way upthread that people are quoting again. Present-giving just reared it ugly head again for Fathers Day this past Sunday.

I'll admit, I forgot it was Fathers Day until Facebook reminded me around 10am. Oh shit, I think, and order my father a book I think he'll like on Amazon prime as I'm going round on Wednesday and I can bring it then. I ring up my parents house and my mother answers. What's the first thing she says? "Oh, I just finished telling Daddy that no card or little parcel has arrived for him..." I explain that I haven't been able to post it (just moved house). I am forgiven. I get onto my father and say I'll bring his present round on Wednesday. "You don't need to get me a present," he says. I believe him. So I, who does not want to buy a present just because it's a particular Sunday in June, have to buy my father a present, who does not need anything else in his life or want anything that he cannot immediately buy for himself, in order to not upset my mother. This is the present-giving bullshit I am talking about.

I don't especially want to receive presents either. My ideal birthday/Christmas "haul" would be a book and a box of chocolates and some fancy shower gel. That's all the little luxuries I could want that would only cause delight and not hassle or future obligation to keep forever. But I have to ask for a "proper" present, and then keep it for at least a year, and provide updates on how I'm using it. Present-giving is 100% my mother's love language, but it is not mine and I don't like it when her desire to give me things causes me to have to do work. I cannot just get rid of things I don't really want because she would be hurt.

I am working on this. I am gradually de-escalating and de-personalising my family present-giving (to reduce stress for me). My brother and I have stopped doing presents. My parents either get a book or chocolates unless I happen across something I really know they'll like. I'm working on giving my mother other ways to show she cares and being demonstrably appreciative of them. I don't think I'm ungrateful - just extremely frustrated that my mother's wishes impose such obligations on all of the rest of us.

Gift giving is my mother's love language too. I hate it. She buys so much stuff for my kids that they don't appreciate or want. One year she bought my husband a ceramic cookie jar shaped like a golf bag (because my husband plays golf occasionally) and just ugh. We told her it got broken when she asked about it.   Suggesting no gifts offends her for some reason I'll never understand. I'm working up the courage to suggest no presents again. I really don't need anything. It's got to the point where we give them vouchers and they give us vouchers.  What is the point?

[mustachepungoeshere]

My wife gets annoyed when I tell her I want a nice bottle of bourbon for my birthday...

... why?

Ok, everyone's different but I can't even imagine being annoyed at my husband for that.

He likes whisky and prefers good whisky. He enjoys having a well-stocked bar to share with friends and family. I like giving people gifts they want and will appreciate, and the minimalist in me loves giving and receiving consumables.

There is no downside here.

[mtn]

My wife gets annoyed when I tell her I want a nice bottle of bourbon for my birthday...

... why?

Ok, everyone's different but I can't even imagine being annoyed at my husband for that.

He likes whisky and prefers good whisky. He enjoys having a well-stocked bar to share with friends and family. I like giving people gifts they want and will appreciate, and the minimalist in me loves giving and receiving consumables.

There is no downside here.

Basically it comes from her mother. Her mom has a lot of fucked up standards--giving wine as a gift is acceptable, but hard booze is not. Beer (even craft beer) is trashy, but wine and certain hard liquor is not--I think the acceptable list is brandy, cognac, and rum. It is a combination of Multiple Sclerosis, being raised by an emotionally abusive mother (wife's grandma) and getting out of a small, dying town into an upper class suburb. She seems to forget where she came from quite a bit.

She (my wife) is slowly coming around to the idea that I don't want more shit, and to give me consumables--and the only consumables I don't buy for myself are nicer bourbons. It just takes a lot of unlearning after living with her mother for 18+ years. There are other things like this too--I buy a lot of beer when it is on sale, and put it all in the fridge. She doesn't like it when I keep more than 3-4 beers in the fridge, because that is all I drink in just about any 48 hour stretch--I can't figure out why I wouldn't keep them all in the fridge, assuming we have space for them. I ended that discussion when I asked what color kegerator she preferred I get :P (wife doesn't drink too much beer, mostly drinks wine that does not need to be chilled).

The only practical, "good" reasons that she has are that she did teach the alcohol abuse classes in college, she had an uncle who died from driving drunk, and alcoholism is present in my family--but I'm not one.

[prognastat]

I think I may have finally gotten lucky with my last birthday in that instead of getting a mountain of gifts that though appreciated added lots of clutter and none of which were things I needed they instead bought a single gift though there were lots of complaints about how too many expensive gifts were on my wish list. Though actually the list has items at various prizes it is weighted to slightly more expensive gifts, $50-150 range rather than sub $50, in the hopes that it will reduce the amount I get. I would prefer one gift I really wanted over 10 cheaper gifts that are just ok. I'm hoping it wasn't just a one off.

[With This Herring]

*snip*
There are other things like this too--I buy a lot of beer when it is on sale, and put it all in the fridge. She doesn't like it when I keep more than 3-4 beers in the fridge, because that is all I drink in just about any 48 hour stretch--I can't figure out why I wouldn't keep them all in the fridge, assuming we have space for them. I ended that discussion when I asked what color kegerator she preferred I get :P (wife doesn't drink too much beer, mostly drinks wine that does not need to be chilled).

The only practical, "good" reasons that she has are that she did teach the alcohol abuse classes in college, she had an uncle who died from driving drunk, and alcoholism is present in my family--but I'm not one.

This would annoy me simply because then I wouldn't be able to pick up the large variety of fruits/extra gallon of milk/tasty cheeses on sale this week because somebody had already stuffed the fridge full of a beverage that does not require constant refrigeration because "there's room" (i.e. it is the end of the grocery week, and the fridge is due to be restocked with actual food).

And if you think this is colored by my own experiences, you would certainly be correct.  :)

[cheapass]

I understand that you were not aware that an $82 "bill" was going to pop up out of nowhere, but how are you buying wheels for a project car if you know you're going to be without two weeks pay very soon, and apparently you don't have any money saved, because of you did, the extra $32 wouldn't be an issue?

If you're having a kid and $32 is the difference between family solvency/insolvency, it's time to seriously re-evaluate your priorities in life.

[mtn]

*snip*
There are other things like this too--I buy a lot of beer when it is on sale, and put it all in the fridge. She doesn't like it when I keep more than 3-4 beers in the fridge, because that is all I drink in just about any 48 hour stretch--I can't figure out why I wouldn't keep them all in the fridge, assuming we have space for them. I ended that discussion when I asked what color kegerator she preferred I get :P (wife doesn't drink too much beer, mostly drinks wine that does not need to be chilled).

The only practical, "good" reasons that she has are that she did teach the alcohol abuse classes in college, she had an uncle who died from driving drunk, and alcoholism is present in my family--but I'm not one.

This would annoy me simply because then I wouldn't be able to pick up the large variety of fruits/extra gallon of milk/tasty cheeses on sale this week because somebody had already stuffed the fridge full of a beverage that does not require constant refrigeration because "there's room" (i.e. it is the end of the grocery week, and the fridge is due to be restocked with actual food).

And if you think this is colored by my own experiences, you would certainly be correct.  :)

.... So take it out...

That is actually another rant--she buys too much food for the two of us.

[marielle]

*snip*
There are other things like this too--I buy a lot of beer when it is on sale, and put it all in the fridge. She doesn't like it when I keep more than 3-4 beers in the fridge, because that is all I drink in just about any 48 hour stretch--I can't figure out why I wouldn't keep them all in the fridge, assuming we have space for them. I ended that discussion when I asked what color kegerator she preferred I get :P (wife doesn't drink too much beer, mostly drinks wine that does not need to be chilled).

The only practical, "good" reasons that she has are that she did teach the alcohol abuse classes in college, she had an uncle who died from driving drunk, and alcoholism is present in my family--but I'm not one.

This would annoy me simply because then I wouldn't be able to pick up the large variety of fruits/extra gallon of milk/tasty cheeses on sale this week because somebody had already stuffed the fridge full of a beverage that does not require constant refrigeration because "there's room" (i.e. it is the end of the grocery week, and the fridge is due to be restocked with actual food).

And if you think this is colored by my own experiences, you would certainly be correct.  :)

.... So take it out...

That is actually another rant--she buys too much food for the two of us.

Yeah, there's no issue with taking beer out to let get warm then putting it back in the fridge later. Just keep it out of sun/light.

[Feivel2000]

Just heard a story from my wife:

Her friend bought a new couch (probably not necessary but I haven't seen the old one) and paid the delivery company 70€ to take the old one with them when they delivered the new one. They came and decided to leave the old couch there.
Now she paid 70€, has two couches in her small apartment and has to fight with the company to get her money back or to make them to remove the couch.

The joke is that here in Germany, bulky waste will be picked up for free, all she had to do was to bring it down to the street.
Also, I am pretty sure that someone would have taken the couch for free or would have paid small money for it, using kijiji...

[MgoSam]

Just heard a story from my wife:

Her friend bought a new couch (probably not necessary but I haven't seen the old one) and paid the delivery company 70€ to take the old one with them when they delivered the new one. They came and decided to leave the old couch there.
Now she paid 70€, has two couches in her small apartment and has to fight with the company to get her money back or to make them to remove the couch.

The joke is that here in Germany, bulky waste will be picked up for free, all she had to do was to bring it down to the street.
Also, I am pretty sure that someone would have taken the couch for free or would have paid small money for it, using kijiji...

It annoys me when people do this. One of my mom's friends bought all new couches right around the time I was closing on my house. I asked my mom to call her and ask if I could come by to look at them and offered to haul them out (she was going to pay to have them removed). The women said yes and then when I called her said, "Oh, well I didn't want the hassle so I just had them take them." I asked my mom about the condition of the couches and she said that they were like new and very good quality ones. Now they are most likely at the dumpster (unless the company she hired took them).

[cheapass]

I don't understand how you can be such an idiot to not connect the dots. You don't have money because you waste it on stupid shit.

Nah man. Life's just expensive these days. It's the 1%'s fault and Wall Street, that's why nobody's getting ahead.

[Sydneystache]

I understand that you were not aware that an $82 "bill" was going to pop up out of nowhere, but how are you buying wheels for a project car if you know you're going to be without two weeks pay very soon, and apparently you don't have any money saved, because of you did, the extra $32 wouldn't be an issue?

If you're having a kid and $32 is the difference between family solvency/insolvency, it's time to seriously re-evaluate your priorities in life.

Exactly!

I had the same private conversation with my younger brother who although not frugal, is extremely smart and plans ahead for the future.

I don't understand how you can be such an idiot to not connect the dots. You don't have money because you waste it on stupid shit.

I feel for your future nephew/niece. S/he is going to grow up with your brother as role model. Cars or baby?

[doublethinkmoney]

I understand that you were not aware that an $82 "bill" was going to pop up out of nowhere, but how are you buying wheels for a project car if you know you're going to be without two weeks pay very soon, and apparently you don't have any money saved, because of you did, the extra $32 wouldn't be an issue?

If you're having a kid and $32 is the difference between family solvency/insolvency, it's time to seriously re-evaluate your priorities in life.

Let's be honest. It's not about him "not having" $32. It's the fact he doesn't want to spend more than $50 on someone else. If it was something that benefited him I bet he would have made it work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Goldielocks]

I understand that you were not aware that an $82 "bill" was going to pop up out of nowhere, but how are you buying wheels for a project car if you know you're going to be without two weeks pay very soon, and apparently you don't have any money saved, because of you did, the extra $32 wouldn't be an issue?

If you're having a kid and $32 is the difference between family solvency/insolvency, it's time to seriously re-evaluate your priorities in life.

Let's be honest. It's not about him "not having" $32. It's the fact he doesn't want to spend more than $50 on someone else. If it was something that benefited him I bet he would have made it work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OR

He bought the car stuff, then his wife was aggrieved, and pointed out his spendy ways and he promised absolutely to stop and save X dollars before baby.

[Dezrah]

I get that people don't want gifts, but there's also such a thing as being gracious and accepting a gift in the spirit in which it was given, whether you like it or not. Some of the posters here sound quite rude and ungrateful. Get over it. Your relatives are trying to how you they care in their own way. Much like you try to show them you care in your own way, which they might not always appreciate.

I hear what you're saying.  In my case, FIL believes he's being loving in reality he's dealing with a host of psychological issues and projecting them onto us.  He can't accept he's effectively failed as a father, he can't cope with his parents' overly high expectations, he hoards believing he's leaving a legacy instead of a burden... it's all just very sad and complicated.  Ultimately I'm not grateful that extra stuff is imposed on us with an unrealistic psychological burden.  Sometimes I like to vent about how ridiculous the situation is; perhaps I could do better though.

[Gronnie]

Wife and I are thinking about downsizing from our 2300 square foot 4 bedroom 2.5 bath split level with 3 car garage down to a 1350 square foot townhome with 3 bedroom, 1.5 bath and a 1 car garage.

We bought the split for 190,000 about 5 years ago and figure we can sell for somewhere between 260 and 270 now. We like it, but splits are laid out terribly and there is so much wasted space yet hardly any storage. It also has vaulted ceilings (which means higher utilities)! We figure really only only use about half the space and the rest is just wasted. The backyard is also extremely windy (we live in one of the windiest cities in the country), making the deck almost unusable.

The new place seems to be laid out fairly nice, just needs a coat of paint, new flooring, and some work on the landscaping. It is about 1 block from the daycare our daughter that is due in July will be attending, and walking distance to my work. The park and ride for my wife to get to work downtown is also only about a 1 mile drive. It also has HOA that handles lawncare, snow removal, and exterior maintenance (I loathe yardwork, but my wife wants a place of our own, this is a good compromise)

We figure with our income we could have this place paid off in a few short years. We were excited and called the in-laws to come look at it with us, and their first question was if we are having money problems. Then they called us (me) lazy, nevermind I make great money as an engineer and we are just thinking about making a lifestyle choice millions of others make (hell, they live in an HOA with lawncare and snow removal themselves). I think they would be embarassed, they want us to move into something nicer than we have now, which is quite ironic because they sold their old place a few years ago and we figured they were downsizing and instead moved into something nicer and now are complaining about having to work at least another 6-7 years when they want to retire now. I don't want to make that mistake.

So of course they made my wife feel like shit (I don't give a fuck what they, or anyone else thinks).

[Rowellen]

Wife and I are thinking about downsizing from our 2300 square foot 4 bedroom 2.5 bath split level with 3 car garage down to a 1350 square foot townhome with 3 bedroom, 1.5 bath and a 1 car garage.

We bought the split for 190,000 about 5 years ago and figure we can sell for somewhere between 260 and 270 now. We like it, but splits are laid out terribly and there is so much wasted space yet hardly any storage. It also has vaulted ceilings (which means higher utilities)! We figure really only only use about half the space and the rest is just wasted. The backyard is also extremely windy (we live in one of the windiest cities in the country), making the deck almost unusable.

The new place seems to be laid out fairly nice, just needs a coat of paint, new flooring, and some work on the landscaping. It is about 1 block from the daycare our daughter that is due in July will be attending, and walking distance to my work. The park and ride for my wife to get to work downtown is also only about a 1 mile drive. It also has HOA that handles lawncare, snow removal, and exterior maintenance (I loathe yardwork, but my wife wants a place of our own, this is a good compromise)

We figure with our income we could have this place paid off in a few short years. We were excited and called the in-laws to come look at it with us, and their first question was if we are having money problems. Then they called us (me) lazy, nevermind I make great money as an engineer and we are just thinking about making a lifestyle choice millions of others make (hell, they live in an HOA with lawncare and snow removal themselves). I think they would be embarassed, they want us to move into something nicer than we have now, which is quite ironic because they sold their old place a few years ago and we figured they were downsizing and instead moved into something nicer and now are complaining about having to work at least another 6-7 years when they want to retire now. I don't want to make that mistake.

So of course they made my wife feel like shit (I don't give a fuck what they, or anyone else thinks).

It sucks that they can't be happy for you but I think it sounds delightful.