Relatives who just don't get it

[Linea_Norway]

I'm more laughing at her response to you refusing funeral insurance.  You said you could/would pay for your own funeral, and she threatened to not pay for it?  That's a pretty hollow threat.

Indeed. My husband can take care of my funeral. And I hope to survive my mother by a good margin, although no one can be sure about that.

[Cassie]

Some people have done pre-paid and then the funeral home went out of business so no recourse. My parents, aunts, uncles, etc instead bought plots next to my grandparents so they could all be together. Then in their 60's they all bought headstones and had them engraved and then stored until the first person of the couple dies.  This takes away a lot of the stress. When my Mom hit her 80's she wrote her own obit, planned her funeral down to the songs.  She asked certain people to sing and bought her casket at 89. She left $ and instructions for which restaurant everyone was invited to and paid for all the meals. She also picked out what she would wear.   We did not have to make any decisions.

[Sibley]

It's actually pretty common that life insurance proceeds will be used to pay the funeral costs, then remaining insurance is distributed according to whatever the bene list is.

[MgoSam]

When I'm dead, I really hope my family/friends don't spend a lot of money on disposing of my body. Any advice on how to actually plan your funeral so as to avoid caused loved ones any stress? I don't really care if my body is cremated or buried or just left in the woods for wolves to eat (well I do mind that as I would like to donate any working organs).

[Playing with Fire UK]

When I'm dead, I really hope my family/friends don't spend a lot of money on disposing of my body. Any advice on how to actually plan your funeral so as to avoid caused loved ones any stress? I don't really care if my body is cremated or buried or just left in the woods for wolves to eat (well I do mind that as I would like to donate any working organs).

In my experiences of planning funerals, people tend to over think what the dead person would have wanted. Err on the side of over specifying rather than under specifying. 

And make sure people know about your organ donation wish. I put my card on Facebook. By the time people find your will or expression of wishes form your organs often can't be used.

[mtn]

When I'm dead, I really hope my family/friends don't spend a lot of money on disposing of my body. Any advice on how to actually plan your funeral so as to avoid caused loved ones any stress? I don't really care if my body is cremated or buried or just left in the woods for wolves to eat (well I do mind that as I would like to donate any working organs).

In my experiences of planning funerals, people tend to over think what the dead person would have wanted. Err on the side of over specifying rather than under specifying. 

And make sure people know about your organ donation wish. I put my card on Facebook. By the time people find your will or expression of wishes form your organs often can't be used.

If you die from old age, there is good chance most of the organs can't be used anymore anyways. Not a rule, obviously--often times the organs are just as good in an 80 year old as a 24 year old--but often, the organs have indeed started to shut down.

[Papa Mustache]

In the Netherlands some smart insure companies have invented the funeral insurance. You pay insurance money, to get money in return after you die, to pay for your own funeral. A funeral, in my opinion, should have been your family's financial problem.

My mother has bought this insurance and told me to also buy it. It said I found such an insurance unnecessary, because I can afford my own funeral and I don't need a pricy funeral. That obviously pissed her off, because she threatened me to not pay for my funeral if I would die before her. I thought that was so unreasonable, because I would without any hesitation have paid for her funeral, as I think is a child's obligation.

My brother, who was at that time still living in my mother's house, had also taken such an insurance, just to make her shut up about it.

Isn't insurance for unexpected, unlikely expenses that are very costly? I know I'm planning not to die (working well so far) but I doubt many people have this plan that they'd need insurance for.

Is it really insurance or is it a savings plan with a fee attached to it? ;)

[Chris22]

In the Netherlands some smart insure companies have invented the funeral insurance. You pay insurance money, to get money in return after you die, to pay for your own funeral. A funeral, in my opinion, should have been your family's financial problem.

My mother has bought this insurance and told me to also buy it. It said I found such an insurance unnecessary, because I can afford my own funeral and I don't need a pricy funeral. That obviously pissed her off, because she threatened me to not pay for my funeral if I would die before her. I thought that was so unreasonable, because I would without any hesitation have paid for her funeral, as I think is a child's obligation.

My brother, who was at that time still living in my mother's house, had also taken such an insurance, just to make her shut up about it.

Isn't insurance for unexpected, unlikely expenses that are very costly? I know I'm planning not to die (working well so far) but I doubt many people have this plan that they'd need insurance for.

Is it really insurance or is it a savings plan with a fee attached to it? ;)

Wondering that too.  "Insurance" suggests that you'll pay in perpetuity until you (your family) makes a claim.  Could be a $100k funeral if you buy too early.  A prepayment plan would make more sense. 

[Playing with Fire UK]

When I'm dead, I really hope my family/friends don't spend a lot of money on disposing of my body. Any advice on how to actually plan your funeral so as to avoid caused loved ones any stress? I don't really care if my body is cremated or buried or just left in the woods for wolves to eat (well I do mind that as I would like to donate any working organs).

In my experiences of planning funerals, people tend to over think what the dead person would have wanted. Err on the side of over specifying rather than under specifying. 
And make sure people know about your organ donation wish. I put my card on Facebook. By the time people find your will or expression of wishes form your organs often can't be used.

If you die from old age, there is good chance most of the organs can't be used anymore anyways. Not a rule, obviously--often times the organs are just as good in an 80 year old as a 24 year old--but often, the organs have indeed started to shut down.

It's going to take a long time for my organs to have died of old age, and I'm hoping that we'll be better at developing synthetic organs before that point. Of course I could always die early of something that trashes all my organs, but I'd rather have people know what I want than have my viable organs go to waste when they're of no use to me.

[Playing with Fire UK]

In the Netherlands some smart insure companies have invented the funeral insurance. You pay insurance money, to get money in return after you die, to pay for your own funeral. A funeral, in my opinion, should have been your family's financial problem.

My mother has bought this insurance and told me to also buy it. It said I found such an insurance unnecessary, because I can afford my own funeral and I don't need a pricy funeral. That obviously pissed her off, because she threatened me to not pay for my funeral if I would die before her. I thought that was so unreasonable, because I would without any hesitation have paid for her funeral, as I think is a child's obligation.
My brother, who was at that time still living in my mother's house, had also taken such an insurance, just to make her shut up about it.

Isn't insurance for unexpected, unlikely expenses that are very costly? I know I'm planning not to die (working well so far) but I doubt many people have this plan that they'd need insurance for.

Is it really insurance or is it a savings plan with a fee attached to it? ;)

Wondering that too.  "Insurance" suggests that you'll pay in perpetuity until you (your family) makes a claim.  Could be a $100k funeral if you buy too early.  A prepayment plan would make more sense.

Over here you pay a higher than necessary price today so that you have inflation-proofing when you need the funeral. The primary cost is basically prepayment, but they make you pay more for 'inflation,' which is more like insurance (there is uncertainty on how much it will cost) but with the premium paid upfront. If you bought the policy today and died tomorrow you'd have overpaid.

It's pretty awful the way they target the sales at people who can't afford it. They suggest that it will stop your family inheriting your debt, but this isn't the way that debt works here.

Clever though.

[shelivesthedream]

Burial insurance was a form of semi-predatory lending in existence at the start of the 20th Century (and presumably for decades before and afterwards). The "decent poor" couldn't afford the full cost of a funeral all at once but were terrified of the ignominy of the pauper's funeral. So they paid their burial insurance every week and it paid out for a decent funeral if needed.

Except... You were only covered if you were up to date on payments. No matter how much you paid in, if someone dies in the week you don't pay then no funeral for you. And of course when someone is ill then finances are squeezed even harder: doctor's fees, special food for the invalid, an earned not being able to work (either through illness or needing to nurse the invalid)... But they had to keep up the burial insurance payments no matter what to ensure they were covered when it was most needed. So they would go hungry or try to get extra work, with disease in the air, to pay their burial insurance - possibly leading to more deaths.

I first read about it in a fascinating book called "Round About a Pound a Week" by Maud Pember-Reeves.

[Linea_Norway]

Feel free to put it into Google translate or something like that:

http://www.begrafenisverzekeringen.net/

The site says that you don't need it if you have enough money to pay for your funeral. My mother is a bit wealthy. When my father died many years ago, his life insurance paid of most of the house. My mother receives both my father's widow pension and her own pension. She surely wouldn't have needed this insurance. It could be that she doesn't have cash money to pay for it. But my brother and I who will inherit the house, could have paid for the funeral after selling the house.

I also think that 15.000 - 20.000 euro for a funeral, is a very big sum. I personally wouldn't need to have a pricy funeral. I can't remember that we paid that much when my father died either.

[Half-Borg]

When my mom died, we spend around 5000€, and we did nothing fancy.
Standard coffin, cremation and buried in a forest graveyard. Some stupid speaker, who could not get his head around, that none of us are religious. Coffee and cake for ~30 people.
All paid for by the estate before we started worrying about who gets what. I ended up getting 1/8 of the house and nothing else. I would rather not have the 1/8 which has been nothing but trouble.

[Playing with Fire UK]

Burial insurance was a form of semi-predatory lending in existence at the start of the 20th Century (and presumably for decades before and afterwards).

This is really interesting; thanks!

[Cassie]

HB: you don't need a coffin if you get cremated.  Nice urns are not very expensive. Here it is way less then 5k if you choose that route.

[Half-Borg]

the coffin gets burned together with the body, we also had an urn.
i'm pretty sure there would have been better options, but it's not a good time to get the family to shop around

[TheGrimSqueaker]

For cremations, there's a cardboard box option for the coffin. Naturally I went for that.

A couple years ago I bought a special kind of prepaid funeral plan, and bought my urn outright. The prepaid plan works like this: it's done through an insurance company with one lump-sum payment which is payable to the funeral parlor, which has to honor the set of services negotiated for at that price. This guards against inflation increasing the dollar value of my cardboard box. Meanwhile, if the funeral parlor goes out of business between now and the time I kick the bucket, either the money comes back to me or can be transferred dollar-for-dollar to a different mortuary.

[ringer707]

the coffin gets burned together with the body, we also had an urn.
i'm pretty sure there would have been better options, but it's not a good time to get the family to shop around

Coffin burned with the body? How much did the coffin cost? I've never heard of it being done this way.

[mtn]

the coffin gets burned together with the body, we also had an urn.
i'm pretty sure there would have been better options, but it's not a good time to get the family to shop around

Coffin burned with the body? How much did the coffin cost? I've never heard of it being done this way.

IIRC, that is only done with very cheap coffins. If there is a viewing, it is usually a "rented" coffin.

[Cassie]

I thought everyone used the cardboard box coffin when it is being burned?

[SwordGuy]

Funeral insurance? I would imagine this to be like a hybrid of life insurance and prepaid funeral plans. Is my guess close?

No, it is not a life insurance. But the funeral can quickly be payed for. Normally the deceased pays for her/himself from the leftover money. But it can take a while before the relatives can claim that money. They would probably have to pay the bill first and get it back a month or to later, is my guess.
In my opinion this is a ridiculous product.

I just wrote a check from my mom's checkbook, signed my name to it, and handed it to the funeral director.
Worked like a charm.

I suppose technically that was a no-no, as the financial power of attorney she gave me expired on her death, and the executorship of her estate hadn't formally been approved by the government.   

Based on the funeral director's comments, it is very common for them to do this.

[mtn]

Funeral insurance? I would imagine this to be like a hybrid of life insurance and prepaid funeral plans. Is my guess close?

No, it is not a life insurance. But the funeral can quickly be payed for. Normally the deceased pays for her/himself from the leftover money. But it can take a while before the relatives can claim that money. They would probably have to pay the bill first and get it back a month or to later, is my guess.
In my opinion this is a ridiculous product.

I just wrote a check from my mom's checkbook, signed my name to it, and handed it to the funeral director.
Worked like a charm.

I suppose technically that was a no-no, as the financial power of attorney she gave me expired on her death, and the executorship of her estate hadn't formally been approved by the government.   

Based on the funeral director's comments, it is very common for them to do this.

Reminds me of the dinner we had for my great aunt after her funeral. Probably costed around $5-700; I walked up and swiped her AMEX black card and signed for it. Technically illegal, but the credit card company would never notice if the bill is paid. We called paid off the card (no balance on it other than funeral expenses) and then closed very soon after.

EDIT: And a hell of a lot easier than trying to divide the bill among (depending on how you look at it with different generations) 3, 8, or 15 families.

[mustachepungoeshere]

the coffin gets burned together with the body, we also had an urn.
i'm pretty sure there would have been better options, but it's not a good time to get the family to shop around

Coffin burned with the body? How much did the coffin cost? I've never heard of it being done this way.

IIRC, that is only done with very cheap coffins. If there is a viewing, it is usually a "rented" coffin.

In Australia, cremation in the 'real' coffin or casket is very common. The only difference is that for cremation the decorative 'silver' fixtures on the coffin or casket are actually plastic. Often there is a metal cross or something affixed to the lid which is removed and presented to the family. 

[russianswinga]

When I'm dead, I really hope my family/friends don't spend a lot of money on disposing of my body. Any advice on how to actually plan your funeral so as to avoid caused loved ones any stress? I don't really care if my body is cremated or buried or just left in the woods for wolves to eat (well I do mind that as I would like to donate any working organs).

I'm in IT, and one of my clients is a mortuary / funeral home combo that also does scientific research.
- A straight cremation is about $1000, from body pickup to return of urn with ashes. This does not include county fees, death certificate, etc, you'd be about $1500 all in for a bare-bones, no casket cremation (you can rent a casket for a viewing, if anyone cares, but then there are dressing / prep fees. No viewing - as in, body is picked up at the deceased's home and ashes returned - is the cheapest way to go)
- If you donate your body, they will waive the fee. The body is usually kept for about a month before cremation, and organs are usually used for research. As the research companies pay for this, it covers the cost of he cremation, making it free.
- If you donate your body to a hospital, etc, you better have an agreement with them to have them pick it up. Normally the "donated" organs are harvested from accident victims / etc - people that die in accidents. It's rarely for deaths of natural causes, so it's up to you to arrange that with your hospital before your death. Keep in mind that things like eye tissue can only be used about 36 hrs after death.

[shelivesthedream]

90% sure my great uncle was burned in a fancy coffin. He left a lot of money, though, and would have wanted it that way.

[Metric Mouse]

When I'm dead, I really hope my family/friends don't spend a lot of money on disposing of my body. Any advice on how to actually plan your funeral so as to avoid caused loved ones any stress? I don't really care if my body is cremated or buried or just left in the woods for wolves to eat (well I do mind that as I would like to donate any working organs).

I'm in IT, and one of my clients is a mortuary / funeral home combo that also does scientific research.
- A straight cremation is about $1000, from body pickup to return of urn with ashes. This does not include county fees, death certificate, etc, you'd be about $1500 all in for a bare-bones, no casket cremation (you can rent a casket for a viewing, if anyone cares, but then there are dressing / prep fees. No viewing - as in, body is picked up at the deceased's home and ashes returned - is the cheapest way to go)
- If you donate your body, they will waive the fee. The body is usually kept for about a month before cremation, and organs are usually used for research. As the research companies pay for this, it covers the cost of he cremation, making it free.
- If you donate your body to a hospital, etc, you better have an agreement with them to have them pick it up. Normally the "donated" organs are harvested from accident victims / etc - people that die in accidents. It's rarely for deaths of natural causes, so it's up to you to arrange that with your hospital before your death. Keep in mind that things like eye tissue can only be used about 36 hrs after death.

I'm trying to imagine why I would need my dead relative's body picked up at their house. How did they get home from the hospital? Prop them up in the passenger seat so we could use the carpool lane?

And then I picture the delivery instructions for the urn "Just leave by back door. Beware of dog."  My mind wanders in the morning sometimes...

[kayvent]

When I'm dead, I really hope my family/friends don't spend a lot of money on disposing of my body. Any advice on how to actually plan your funeral so as to avoid caused loved ones any stress? I don't really care if my body is cremated or buried or just left in the woods for wolves to eat (well I do mind that as I would like to donate any working organs).

I'm in IT, and one of my clients is a mortuary / funeral home combo that also does scientific research.
- A straight cremation is about $1000, from body pickup to return of urn with ashes. This does not include county fees, death certificate, etc, you'd be about $1500 all in for a bare-bones, no casket cremation (you can rent a casket for a viewing, if anyone cares, but then there are dressing / prep fees. No viewing - as in, body is picked up at the deceased's home and ashes returned - is the cheapest way to go)
- If you donate your body, they will waive the fee. The body is usually kept for about a month before cremation, and organs are usually used for research. As the research companies pay for this, it covers the cost of he cremation, making it free.
- If you donate your body to a hospital, etc, you better have an agreement with them to have them pick it up. Normally the "donated" organs are harvested from accident victims / etc - people that die in accidents. It's rarely for deaths of natural causes, so it's up to you to arrange that with your hospital before your death. Keep in mind that things like eye tissue can only be used about 36 hrs after death.

I'm trying to imagine why I would need my dead relative's body picked up at their house. How did they get home from the hospital? Prop them up in the passenger seat so we could use the carpool lane?

And then I picture the delivery instructions for the urn "Just leave by back door. Beware of dog."  My mind wanders in the morning sometimes...

Lots of people die at home. One example, currently in my life, is a person that is terminally ill. They are going to die whether they are in a hospital or at home so they'd rather spend their last few months at their home with good food and in comfort instead of at the hospital that entire time.

[BlueHouse]

I if there is funeral insurance to make sure that only my frugal wishes are carried out, I would buy it to keep my relatives from buying the fancy package. Some funeral directors equate casket price with love, to make bigger sales. I want plywood and cremation and ashes can be buried or thrown in the garden. But I know my family will want to make it look expensive. It's definitely not for me. It's all for them.
My grandmother used to tell her daughter "I don't want open casket". Her daughter made it open casket "because she looked so beautiful". Um, nope. And I also would like to be cremated in pajamas

[cavewoman]

I'm definitely with you that I'd prefer a cheap funeral,  but just to be contrary.  . . it is for the family and not the deceased, so if my family can afford it,  I'm ok with fancier. When my late boyfriend was killed, his family was gracious enough to involve me in the plans.  There were plenty of things they picked that I felt he wouldn't have wanted, but his mom was in charge at that point.  He and I had actually had that conversation, he knew he might die and he didn't want her more upset because he wasn't religious. The bad part is the funeral home totally took advantage because it was a military funeral and talked them into things like these huge banners with his picture on it, they made it sound like it would be donated but they were charged for it.  I do wish I had spoken up more about that.  He would have hated larger than life sized posters.

My husband knows I'd like to be cremated, but he also knows my thoughts above so if my Dad develops a need to buy or rent a fancy casket to help him grieve (god forbid I predecease him) then that's fine.

[Playing with Fire UK]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

[cavewoman]

That is a very important distinction!

[iluvzbeach]

I spent much of my career in banking. It was not uncommon for the family of a deceased person to come to the bank requesting a check from the deceased's account to pay for the funeral services. As long as we could verify the death and received a copy of the itemized funeral costs, we always released a bank check payable to the funeral home.

[kayvent]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

It is all about keeping up with the Joneses to some people. They'd not want to be caught dead in a funeral less glittery than their neighbours.

[KodeBlue]

Jewish funerals are great- we're buried the day after we die in a wooden casket w/ no ornaments, no flowers, wearing a simple shroud. If you die in Isreal you don't even need a casket.

[zolotiyeruki]

My grandmother used to tell her daughter "I don't want open casket". Her daughter made it open casket "because she looked so beautiful". Um, nope. And I also would like to be cremated in pajamas

Heh, I like the idea of wearing pajamas in the casket.  Might as well be comfortable, eh? :)

[mustachepungoeshere]

My grandmother used to tell her daughter "I don't want open casket". Her daughter made it open casket "because she looked so beautiful". Um, nope. And I also would like to be cremated in pajamas

Heh, I like the idea of wearing pajamas in the casket.  Might as well be comfortable, eh? :)

The big sleep...

[Metric Mouse]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

Do a large number of people actually believe that, or do they mostly justify their own needs by blaming it on the deceased? 

[MgoSam]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

Do a large number of people actually believe that, or do they mostly justify their own needs by blaming it on the deceased?

Sometimes they may rationalize it by saying, "It's what ___ would have wanted." I don't think the family members are being a selfish in doing so, I haven't ever planned a funeral but I can imagine that those that have care for the deceased and probably are likely to go overboard to honor them. That and the funeral director, who organizes funerals all the time, might up-sell services.

[JLee]

We had a family member stay last night who, after a couple of hours and a couple of drinks, asked me an odd question.

Him: So... is this your furniture?
Me: ಠ_ಠ
Him: Oh I just wondered if you were renting it, because it's all really nice stuff.

I just laughed.

In the room he was admiring, five out seven pieces were from eBay, the sixth was floor stock, and the seventh was Ikea.

Also, who rents furniture?

I was at a ridiculous high end furniture store with a friend the other day and I saw dining room chairs that were $1500+.  It looked like small square tube frame holding a simple square (leather) cushion.

$1500.

EACH.

It made me want to start making furniture...

[BlueHouse]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

Do a large number of people actually believe that, or do they mostly justify their own needs by blaming it on the deceased?

The sales pitches at funeral homes (i'm sure not all, but definitely the ones I've seen) try to imply that you should spend as much as you can afford, otherwise, you don't love the deceased enough, or you're not showing how much you love.  Remember these things when you choose your options:
1.  Funeral homes are businesses and want to make money. 
2.  Funeral Directors are not clergy.  They are businessmen.   
This is not to say they are bad people.  It's just that their business is used when its customers are the most vulnerable and many already feel guilt over not having done enough of something or other. 

[Jags4186]

Also, you are kind of a captive audience.  If you don't like what the funeral parlor is going to arrange or the prices, what are your options?  Move the body somewhere else?  What if they don't have competitive prices...

[Playing with Fire UK]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

Do a large number of people actually believe that, or do they mostly justify their own needs by blaming it on the deceased?

The sales pitches at funeral homes (i'm sure not all, but definitely the ones I've seen) try to imply that you should spend as much as you can afford, otherwise, you don't love the deceased enough, or you're not showing how much you love.  Remember these things when you choose your options:
1.  Funeral homes are businesses and want to make money. 
2.  Funeral Directors are not clergy.  They are businessmen.   
This is not to say they are bad people.  It's just that their business is used when its customers are the most vulnerable and many already feel guilt over not having done enough of something or other.

This, so much this.

[Playing with Fire UK]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

It is all about keeping up with the Joneses to some people. They'd not want to be caught dead in a funeral less glittery than their neighbours.

You are right Kayvent. Also, I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

It is all about keeping up with the Joneses to some people. They'd not want to be caught dead in a funeral less glittery than their neighbours.

You are right Kayvent. Also, I just threw up a little in my mouth.

The guest of honor has a very low probability of being caught alive there.

I'd venture to say that it's mostly upselling and pushing from the funeral industrial complex. Very few people want to create a financial burden on their loved ones although they're prepared to accept one if guilted into it.

[sw1tch]

I have a successful friend who gets hit up by his family for money often. For years he would give it. It's been a while since anyone asked because everyone in his family already owes him money now.

Anyway, it took a while (years) but he finally came up with his go-to line when family members call or e-mail with their stories about why they need money: "I'd rather not be involved."

This is the response that I have started to say and will be saying from now on.

[quinnessenceFI]

Mom sent out a family-wide mass text concerning what she wants for Christmas. I have four words for you: holiday themed cloth napkins. When I saw this text, it made me a bit depressed. The woman is in her late forties and has not yet put a single penny toward retirement. When I was on the phone with her later that day, I asked her why this was what she wanted for Christmas. She said in reply: "I'm not a minimalist," and "I thought they would be nice to have." That reasoning wouldn't haunt me at all if her choices only affected her. But that is not (and never has been) the case. I am going to be the one who has to decide whether or not to work for longer in order to save enough money to ensure she doesn't starve in her final years. I am going to have to live with the guilt or burden that follows that decision. She thinks that money is for playing, and that buying stuff is fun and exciting. But her bad money habits have already affected my life, and will continue to do so if she does not change. I apologize for the sad vibe. That's just how I'm feeling about this.

[Kitsune]

Mom sent out a family-wide mass text concerning what she wants for Christmas. I have four words for you: holiday themed cloth napkins. When I saw this text, it made me a bit depressed. The woman is in her late forties and has not yet put a single penny toward retirement. When I was on the phone with her later that day, I asked her why this was what she wanted for Christmas. She said in reply: "I'm not a minimalist," and "I thought they would be nice to have." That reasoning wouldn't haunt me at all if her choices only affected her. But that is not (and never has been) the case. I am going to be the one who has to decide whether or not to work for longer in order to save enough money to ensure she doesn't starve in her final years. I am going to have to live with the guilt or burden that follows that decision. She thinks that money is for playing, and that buying stuff is fun and exciting. But her bad money habits have already affected my life, and will continue to do so if she does not change. I apologize for the sad vibe. That's just how I'm feeling about this.

Yep. Family. One of the reasons I'm aiming for financial independance but not necessarily retirement is that there are people in my family who will need a hand, and I can't personally live with not giving it, so... there you have it. Sigh.

That said, I totally have holiday-themed cloth napkins. Patterns hold up to stains better, and washing saves paper and buying. 8$ of fabric and 2 hours of cutting/ironing/sewing and there you have it: 8 napkins. It doesn't have to be expensive!

[AlanStache]

Mom sent out a family-wide mass text concerning what she wants for Christmas. I have four words for you: holiday themed cloth napkins. When I saw this text, it made me a bit depressed. The woman is in her late forties and has not yet put a single penny toward retirement. When I was on the phone with her later that day, I asked her why this was what she wanted for Christmas. She said in reply: "I'm not a minimalist," and "I thought they would be nice to have." That reasoning wouldn't haunt me at all if her choices only affected her. But that is not (and never has been) the case. I am going to be the one who has to decide whether or not to work for longer in order to save enough money to ensure she doesn't starve in her final years. I am going to have to live with the guilt or burden that follows that decision. She thinks that money is for playing, and that buying stuff is fun and exciting. But her bad money habits have already affected my life, and will continue to do so if she does not change. I apologize for the sad vibe. That's just how I'm feeling about this.

Welcome!

How much have you talked about future planing with your mom?  This sort of depends on your relative stations in life, are there any relatives or family friends that could help nudge her in the saving direction if taking financial advice from you would not be easy?  YOU know this wont go away on its own and YOU need to be proactive as much as you can.  It sucks (I very personally know), but you may have to choose between a shit choice and a horrible choice in X years. 

"I am not a minimalist", very related to the "I am a car guy" and "I like fashion" as if this makes blowing 1k$ on crap a necessity. 

[MgoSam]

We had a family member stay last night who, after a couple of hours and a couple of drinks, asked me an odd question.

Him: So... is this your furniture?
Me: ಠ_ಠ
Him: Oh I just wondered if you were renting it, because it's all really nice stuff.

I just laughed.

In the room he was admiring, five out seven pieces were from eBay, the sixth was floor stock, and the seventh was Ikea.

Also, who rents furniture?

I was at a ridiculous high end furniture store with a friend the other day and I saw dining room chairs that were $1500+.  It looked like small square tube frame holding a simple square (leather) cushion.

$1500.

EACH.

It made me want to start making furniture...

I recommend you doing so. You may discover that you enjoy doing it and thus have found a very productive hobby as you can sell the items you make and you might find yourself to be amazing at it. Years from now, you may look back on this moment and realize that it was MgoSam that gave you the encouragement you needed and you will reward that swell guy with some few custom-made furniture!

[Papa Mustache]

The Hallmark Card Metric...

This may or may not be the right thread but does any else's family wait until Thanksgiving to bring out all the family dysfunction? We have had all year to discuss whatever needs a tuneup...

"Since we have you here to share a nice meal... Let's hash over any rough edges our relationships might have had the past 12 months." That way we can all look rested and happy for the Christmas pictures in four weeks...

We finally gathered this past weekend for the Thanksgiving meal. DW and I sensed that things were tense when we walked in the door. We can tell when something is bothering my parents. They are tense and quiet. First chit-chat (the living room interview), then dinner, and then let's drag out a list of unhappy topics to kick around until the topics are very dead...

This has happened before to DW and I. 

In short this year my out of state sister thinks I hate her b/c I don't call enough (she call doesn't either) or make efforts to drive several states away to spend time with her (she doesn't either). For 20 years we lived near-ish each other but sister and family were always "busy" whenever we suggested something. She's been to our house twice in two decades since DW and I married.

Sister moves family out of state and gets homesick. DW and I expected that. We did not expect to be taking flack for her unhappiness.

The "conversation" lasted over an hour and more less said it is my fault (and DW’s) for not going out of our way to spend time with her, call her and to make sure there was a card (and implied money) for every occasion in a year's time - more or less. All the religious holidays (DW and I aren't particularly religious), all the birthdays, all the other holidays - there ought to be an endless stream of cards going to sister's house.

Never mind what our objections (if we had any) might be. The only valid answer was their answer. That applies to every “conversation” we have ever had. I’m not allowed to object. I’m also not allowed to “give up” b/c - family. Ideally I would coo and sing to her as much as they do.

It felt like arguing with Red Forman or apologizing to a bully for not having any lunch money that day. (I did not apologize for anything).

My sister has always been favored by our parents and I’ve made peace with that. They are all very similar in personality and motivations.

DW and I have taken a different route that was less spendypants and we didn’t lecture anyone about it.

She’s always gotten plenty of advantages from the parents and “worked harder than any other person in the history of the family.” (My words, their implication). We'll ignore any accomplishments by DW and I: two well-adjusted mannered creative kids, my self-funded engineering degree while working (sister got a free ride), DW’s multiple Master’s degrees that we funded, my enlistment in the military, living overseas for several years alone, always living in a different town i.e. no easy family help, etc.

All sorts of revisionist history was then spilled on the conversation by my parents – its their secret weapon. Should the conversation falter, turn it into a debate, apply revisions to win...

Thanks, just needed to unload.