Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3479117 times)

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3684
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1850 on: September 12, 2016, 08:34:45 PM »
sh*t, druth! What happens when they die? I assume you and your SO will inherit it, right? A friend of mine in Brazil just inherited a debt from his mother. Id be very scared!
Fortunately, debts don't get inherited here in the US (except for long-term care debts in a few states like Pennsylvania, which's another topic, grumble grumble...)  All that can happen is that the debts get repaid by anything in the dead person's estate, and if that isn't enough, then anything else gets written off.  That doesn't stop debt collectors from calling you and strongly implying they're your responsibility to pay, on the other hand - and if you do give in, you can be legally obliged to keep paying, so don't.

Yup, the estate will pay the debts, and I expect there will be nothing left after.  Thank goodness for social security and that they can't take it as a lump sum because they are probably already close to having nothing and we certainly aren't giving them anything!

Can you inherit somebody else's debts in other countries?  That's horrible.  "Your parents were irresponsible, so screw you forever"

Your mindset is in the wrong frame to understand it; atomizing people and their lives. The best base example is of a wife & husband with a fully unified financial structure: their names are both on everything, everything is a joint account, and so forth. You can probably grasp that if the husband passes away that the debts he accumulated don't simply vanish. The wife still has them. The debts aren't considered something he raised but something they raised.

Similarly, in other cultures an estate can be considered a family's and not an individual's. In that view, the passing on of debts isn't too strange. In that view, the way we have it can be considered strange for reasons I won't go into unless you are curious.

Great explanation.

nnls

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1132
  • Location: Perth, AU
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1851 on: September 13, 2016, 12:22:37 AM »
sh*t, druth! What happens when they die? I assume you and your SO will inherit it, right? A friend of mine in Brazil just inherited a debt from his mother. Id be very scared!
Fortunately, debts don't get inherited here in the US (except for long-term care debts in a few states like Pennsylvania, which's another topic, grumble grumble...)  All that can happen is that the debts get repaid by anything in the dead person's estate, and if that isn't enough, then anything else gets written off.  That doesn't stop debt collectors from calling you and strongly implying they're your responsibility to pay, on the other hand - and if you do give in, you can be legally obliged to keep paying, so don't.

Yup, the estate will pay the debts, and I expect there will be nothing left after.  Thank goodness for social security and that they can't take it as a lump sum because they are probably already close to having nothing and we certainly aren't giving them anything!

Can you inherit somebody else's debts in other countries?  That's horrible.  "Your parents were irresponsible, so screw you forever"

Couldn't you go the other way as well, dont inherit your parents assets, just cause they were good with money why should you benefit?

 

Ann

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 295
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1852 on: September 13, 2016, 03:26:04 AM »
Can you inherit somebody else's debts in other countries?  That's horrible.  "Your parents were irresponsible, so screw you forever"

Couldn't you go the other way as well, dont inherit your parents assets, just cause they were good with money why should you benefit?
To be fair, isn't that how many of us feel here?  We AREN'T expecting (or at least depending on) money from our parents?  If they want to leave it to charity, that's fine with me.  It's not mine just because they were good with money.

AlanStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3166
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1853 on: September 13, 2016, 06:06:59 AM »
sh*t, druth! What happens when they die? I assume you and your SO will inherit it, right? A friend of mine in Brazil just inherited a debt from his mother. Id be very scared!
Fortunately, debts don't get inherited here in the US (except for long-term care debts in a few states like Pennsylvania, which's another topic, grumble grumble...)  All that can happen is that the debts get repaid by anything in the dead person's estate, and if that isn't enough, then anything else gets written off.  That doesn't stop debt collectors from calling you and strongly implying they're your responsibility to pay, on the other hand - and if you do give in, you can be legally obliged to keep paying, so don't.

Yup, the estate will pay the debts, and I expect there will be nothing left after.  Thank goodness for social security and that they can't take it as a lump sum because they are probably already close to having nothing and we certainly aren't giving them anything!

Can you inherit somebody else's debts in other countries?  That's horrible.  "Your parents were irresponsible, so screw you forever"

Your mindset is in the wrong frame to understand it; atomizing people and their lives. The best base example is of a wife & husband with a fully unified financial structure: their names are both on everything, everything is a joint account, and so forth. You can probably grasp that if the husband passes away that the debts he accumulated don't simply vanish. The wife still has them. The debts aren't considered something he raised but something they raised.

Similarly, in other cultures an estate can be considered a family's and not an individual's. In that view, the passing on of debts isn't too strange. In that view, the way we have it can be considered strange for reasons I won't go into unless you are curious.

Ok am a little clearer on the US/Canada Husband-wife stuff but you are saying that in other countries if both parents die with debt in excess of assets other people can be held responsible ie children?  Could the children disown themselves to get out of it?

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • Location: Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1854 on: September 13, 2016, 07:08:44 AM »
sh*t, druth! What happens when they die? I assume you and your SO will inherit it, right? A friend of mine in Brazil just inherited a debt from his mother. Id be very scared!
Fortunately, debts don't get inherited here in the US (except for long-term care debts in a few states like Pennsylvania, which's another topic, grumble grumble...)  All that can happen is that the debts get repaid by anything in the dead person's estate, and if that isn't enough, then anything else gets written off.  That doesn't stop debt collectors from calling you and strongly implying they're your responsibility to pay, on the other hand - and if you do give in, you can be legally obliged to keep paying, so don't.

Yup, the estate will pay the debts, and I expect there will be nothing left after.  Thank goodness for social security and that they can't take it as a lump sum because they are probably already close to having nothing and we certainly aren't giving them anything!

Can you inherit somebody else's debts in other countries?  That's horrible.  "Your parents were irresponsible, so screw you forever"

Your mindset is in the wrong frame to understand it; atomizing people and their lives. The best base example is of a wife & husband with a fully unified financial structure: their names are both on everything, everything is a joint account, and so forth. You can probably grasp that if the husband passes away that the debts he accumulated don't simply vanish. The wife still has them. The debts aren't considered something he raised but something they raised.

Similarly, in other cultures an estate can be considered a family's and not an individual's. In that view, the passing on of debts isn't too strange. In that view, the way we have it can be considered strange for reasons I won't go into unless you are curious.

Ok am a little clearer on the US/Canada Husband-wife stuff but you are saying that in other countries if both parents die with debt in excess of assets other people can be held responsible ie children?  Could the children disown themselves to get out of it?

In Soviet Russia you don't DeFOO from your parents, your parents disown you. I had to make that joke.

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5657
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1855 on: September 13, 2016, 08:09:55 AM »
If you want some serious WTF, read this thread from The Wedding Bee, a website about planning weddings:

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/out-of-control-bridal-spending-on-my-budget-a-little-long-sorry/

Tl;dr A woman has been pressured to pay for many things in her sister in law's wedding, and the bill is adding up to $15,000. Yea you read that right--$15,000. It wiped out her savings account. I reapet: not her own wedding.

economista

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1034
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1856 on: September 13, 2016, 08:36:09 AM »
If you want some serious WTF, read this thread from The Wedding Bee, a website about planning weddings:

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/out-of-control-bridal-spending-on-my-budget-a-little-long-sorry/

Tl;dr A woman has been pressured to pay for many things in her sister in law's wedding, and the bill is adding up to $15,000. Yea you read that right--$15,000. It wiped out her savings account. I reapet: not her own wedding.

OMG, that is the most horrible thing I have ever read.  I can't imagine ever doing any of those things, as the bride or as the maid of honor!  I would sit down with the bride, give her a reality check, and take myself out of the wedding if she didn't snap out of it.  Craziness!

slugline

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1175
  • Location: Houston, TX USA
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1857 on: September 13, 2016, 08:43:37 AM »
Tl;dr A woman has been pressured to pay for many things in her sister in law's wedding, and the bill is adding up to $15,000. Yea you read that right--$15,000. It wiped out her savings account. I reapet: not her own wedding.

Wow. Someone better lay some towels around her husband so it will hurt less when his jaw hits the floor when he finds out.

onehair

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1858 on: September 13, 2016, 08:59:12 AM »
Holy ****!! 15k spent and not even her own wedding...I can only hope they woke up and cut her off with a swiftness.....

AlanStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3166
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1859 on: September 13, 2016, 09:04:32 AM »
If you want some serious WTF, read this thread from The Wedding Bee, a website about planning weddings:

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/out-of-control-bridal-spending-on-my-budget-a-little-long-sorry/

Tl;dr A woman has been pressured to pay for many things in her sister in law's wedding, and the bill is adding up to $15,000. Yea you read that right--$15,000. It wiped out her savings account. I reapet: not her own wedding.

^ a must read!

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3684
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1860 on: September 13, 2016, 09:29:32 AM »
If you want some serious WTF, read this thread from The Wedding Bee, a website about planning weddings:

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/out-of-control-bridal-spending-on-my-budget-a-little-long-sorry/

Tl;dr A woman has been pressured to pay for many things in her sister in law's wedding, and the bill is adding up to $15,000. Yea you read that right--$15,000. It wiped out her savings account. I reapet: not her own wedding.

OMG, that is the most horrible thing I have ever read.  I can't imagine ever doing any of those things, as the bride or as the maid of honor!  I would sit down with the bride, give her a reality check, and take myself out of the wedding if she didn't snap out of it.  Craziness!

Not to mention that the bride advertised this as an "all expenses paid..." WTF! Each bachelor party I've gone to has been paid evenly by everyone (save for the future bride).

For my brother's wedding, my sister and her husband paid for the Sangeeth (spelling?), which is a dinner event the night before their wedding...but they offered and insisted on hosting it, plus they could afford it.

druth

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
  • Location: 'sota
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1861 on: September 13, 2016, 10:08:02 AM »
Couldn't you go the other way as well, dont inherit your parents assets, just cause they were good with money why should you benefit?

I guess I do think that inheritance rights should be way cut back also, so at least I'm internally consistent!

LeRainDrop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1834
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1862 on: September 13, 2016, 08:47:53 PM »
If you want some serious WTF, read this thread from The Wedding Bee, a website about planning weddings:

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/out-of-control-bridal-spending-on-my-budget-a-little-long-sorry/

Tl;dr A woman has been pressured to pay for many things in her sister in law's wedding, and the bill is adding up to $15,000. Yea you read that right--$15,000. It wiped out her savings account. I reapet: not her own wedding.

^ a must read!

This is truly astonishing!  What the fuck?  But also the OP/bridesmaid played a huge role in enabling this and needs to grow a backbone to put a stop to it all.  She let it get so far out of hand!

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1863 on: September 13, 2016, 09:29:20 PM »
She resolved everything so fast that I wonder if the whole story was made up. Read the end of it.

LeRainDrop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1834
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1864 on: September 13, 2016, 10:19:40 PM »
Oh, I didn't realize before that she had followed up in the comments section.  Crazy mc-craziness.

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5657
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1865 on: September 13, 2016, 10:23:55 PM »
She resolved everything so fast that I wonder if the whole story was made up. Read the end of it.
I'll bet you are right. It was resolved entirely too neatly.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1866 on: September 13, 2016, 10:33:03 PM »
I was hooked until the end:))

Papa Mustache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1650
  • Location: Humidity, USA
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1867 on: September 14, 2016, 09:11:48 AM »
Retired relatives downsized from a 40 yr old multi-level home into a new single level that potentially costs more than what they sold.

Here's hoping they were objectively careful with their money. Already upgraded one of the vehicles since retirement. They have always liked to spend.

I think I'll casually ask whether they have calculated a "burn rate" since retirement started.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1868 on: September 14, 2016, 11:53:57 AM »
 I have known some retirees that have went to more expensive home in retirement that did not have a ton of $. It makes no sense to me. We did the opposite.

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1869 on: September 14, 2016, 12:15:58 PM »
She resolved everything so fast that I wonder if the whole story was made up. Read the end of it.
I'll bet you are right. It was resolved entirely too neatly.

Thanks for sharing this link. I'm now waiting with bated breath to hear the results of that dinner.

I didn't think the end so far was all that neat; it read like the OP hit her limit and started to take the actions she was stalling on, thinking they'd be too hard. They ended up not being as hard as she thought. I don't think you get to where the OP is personally (strong marriage, successful business, healthy savings account) if you can't make progress when you set your mind to something.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2604
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1870 on: September 14, 2016, 02:20:25 PM »
She resolved everything so fast that I wonder if the whole story was made up. Read the end of it.
I'll bet you are right. It was resolved entirely too neatly.

Thanks for sharing this link. I'm now waiting with bated breath to hear the results of that dinner.

I didn't think the end so far was all that neat; it read like the OP hit her limit and started to take the actions she was stalling on, thinking they'd be too hard. They ended up not being as hard as she thought. I don't think you get to where the OP is personally (strong marriage, successful business, healthy savings account) if you can't make progress when you set your mind to something.

She's still out a huge chunk of money for the cabin and a bunch of the other stuff. I'm also certain she's being set up for a velociraptor play when the rest of the family, including her own husband. After all, the bride has deliberately been spreading lies about how the poster has "agreed" to "treat" everyone to an "all expenses paid" bachelorette party, but the poster hasn't been willing to open her mouth so as to let anyone know about the truth. I suspect that she'll be velociraped by her husband's entire family once they find out how "unreasonable" she's being and how she's going back on her word and being such a bitch to the Poor Innocent And Vulnerable Little Addict Who Just Has To Go Out And Use Now Because Of The Drama.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1871 on: September 14, 2016, 04:07:58 PM »
She resolved everything so fast that I wonder if the whole story was made up. Read the end of it.
I'll bet you are right. It was resolved entirely too neatly.

Thanks for sharing this link. I'm now waiting with bated breath to hear the results of that dinner.

I didn't think the end so far was all that neat; it read like the OP hit her limit and started to take the actions she was stalling on, thinking they'd be too hard. They ended up not being as hard as she thought. I don't think you get to where the OP is personally (strong marriage, successful business, healthy savings account) if you can't make progress when you set your mind to something.

She's still out a huge chunk of money for the cabin and a bunch of the other stuff. I'm also certain she's being set up for a velociraptor play when the rest of the family, including her own husband. After all, the bride has deliberately been spreading lies about how the poster has "agreed" to "treat" everyone to an "all expenses paid" bachelorette party, but the poster hasn't been willing to open her mouth so as to let anyone know about the truth. I suspect that she'll be velociraped by her husband's entire family once they find out how "unreasonable" she's being and how she's going back on her word and being such a bitch to the Poor Innocent And Vulnerable Little Addict Who Just Has To Go Out And Use Now Because Of The Drama.

Can't believe I just read through that entire wedding thread.... I'm ashamed of myself.

Psychopath Bride is going to be embarrased when the hype she generated doesn't live up to expectations.

Mr. Green

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4485
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Wilmington, NC
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1872 on: September 14, 2016, 04:38:50 PM »
If you want some serious WTF, read this thread from The Wedding Bee, a website about planning weddings:

http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/out-of-control-bridal-spending-on-my-budget-a-little-long-sorry/

Tl;dr A woman has been pressured to pay for many things in her sister in law's wedding, and the bill is adding up to $15,000. Yea you read that right--$15,000. It wiped out her savings account. I reapet: not her own wedding.

^ a must read!

This is truly astonishing!  What the fuck?  But also the OP/bridesmaid played a huge role in enabling this and needs to grow a backbone to put a stop to it all.  She let it get so far out of hand!
That's pretty amazing that the OP is saying this ordeal has cost her an upcoming family vacation (she can no longer afford) and she's still considering allowing her SIL to spend more of her money. How does someone rationalize that?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 05:44:02 PM by Mr. Green »

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1873 on: September 14, 2016, 04:46:25 PM »
The dress is the tip off. No way are you going to sell that expensive dress for that much $ that fast.

LeRainDrop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1834
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1874 on: September 14, 2016, 05:11:06 PM »
I dunno, Cassie, I'm still holding onto hope that this is a real story.  But I could just be gullible.  If real, you know that impending marriage is going to be a disaster -- the addict bride who's been clean for less than a year, going on an exceptionally entitled rampage whereby she shakes down her SIL to the tune of $15k, and eight kids between the bride and the groom, where the bride is still working on getting back some custody rights for hers?

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1875 on: September 14, 2016, 05:55:46 PM »
I could be wrong-it has happened once or twice before:))  It is just hard to imagine that anyone could be that gullible. Give anyone my last 15k in the world-nope (except my kids, hubby of course & for something important) .  I actually hope it is not real.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2604
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1876 on: September 14, 2016, 11:03:52 PM »
The kind of thing that happened in the wedding thread occurs a lot in families that have addiction. A recovering addict, in many ways, is like a newborn child who has to learn about boundaries and about what is or isn't appropriate. Interacting with, say, a 30-year-old who's less than a year sober isn't the same as interacting with a normal 30-year-old. That person's understanding of how human nature and society really works (as opposed to the artificial reality she's constructed for herself) may well be about on par with a one-year-old's.

Addicts get as sick as they do because they construct a bizarre, twisted version of reality and then spend years living in it. They reinterpret everything that happens to them, and all interactions with other humans, in the context of their addictive practice. They attribute all sorts of weird motivations to others, their punishment/reward circuitry is often fried, and they sometimes truly don't understand reality outside the context of the addiction culture. That's one of the reasons why ongoing support is so necessary: it helps the recovering addict develop age appropriate social skills. You can't treat a person who's stepping away from an old addiction as though they're still using (obviously), but they're generally not normal adults either. Boundary challenged would be an understatement.

Kitsune

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1877 on: September 15, 2016, 07:10:38 AM »
The kind of thing that happened in the wedding thread occurs a lot in families that have addiction. A recovering addict, in many ways, is like a newborn child who has to learn about boundaries and about what is or isn't appropriate. Interacting with, say, a 30-year-old who's less than a year sober isn't the same as interacting with a normal 30-year-old. That person's understanding of how human nature and society really works (as opposed to the artificial reality she's constructed for herself) may well be about on par with a one-year-old's.

Addicts get as sick as they do because they construct a bizarre, twisted version of reality and then spend years living in it. They reinterpret everything that happens to them, and all interactions with other humans, in the context of their addictive practice. They attribute all sorts of weird motivations to others, their punishment/reward circuitry is often fried, and they sometimes truly don't understand reality outside the context of the addiction culture. That's one of the reasons why ongoing support is so necessary: it helps the recovering addict develop age appropriate social skills. You can't treat a person who's stepping away from an old addiction as though they're still using (obviously), but they're generally not normal adults either. Boundary challenged would be an understatement.

This is...
a) Remarkably perceptive and I'm gonna have to ponder it, and
b) explains a whole lot about 2 people in my family and the way I interact with them without putting it into actual words before.

Huh. Thanks.

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1878 on: September 15, 2016, 08:31:35 AM »
The kind of thing that happened in the wedding thread occurs a lot in families that have addiction. A recovering addict, in many ways, is like a newborn child who has to learn about boundaries and about what is or isn't appropriate. Interacting with, say, a 30-year-old who's less than a year sober isn't the same as interacting with a normal 30-year-old. That person's understanding of how human nature and society really works (as opposed to the artificial reality she's constructed for herself) may well be about on par with a one-year-old's.

Addicts get as sick as they do because they construct a bizarre, twisted version of reality and then spend years living in it. They reinterpret everything that happens to them, and all interactions with other humans, in the context of their addictive practice. They attribute all sorts of weird motivations to others, their punishment/reward circuitry is often fried, and they sometimes truly don't understand reality outside the context of the addiction culture. That's one of the reasons why ongoing support is so necessary: it helps the recovering addict develop age appropriate social skills. You can't treat a person who's stepping away from an old addiction as though they're still using (obviously), but they're generally not normal adults either. Boundary challenged would be an understatement.

TGS, Nice Abnorm Psych summary.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1879 on: September 15, 2016, 12:24:55 PM »
Addicts get stuck emotionally at the age they first started using. So if they started using at 16 then emotionally they are a 16 yo when they quit.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2604
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1880 on: September 15, 2016, 01:09:38 PM »
Addicts get stuck emotionally at the age they first started using. So if they started using at 16 then emotionally they are a 16 yo when they quit.

That's assuming they were at age 16 emotionally when they started using. They frequently aren't.

A kid who grows up in a family where it's considered normal for people to not function at anything resembling an appropriate developmental level may be 16 years old chronologically, but have the reading or math skills of a 2nd-grader, the emotional regulation skills of a 5-year-old, the practical cleaning and elder or child care skills of a 30-year-old, the lie detection capability of a seasoned FBI interrogator, but the social skills and boundary awareness of a toddler. In families like these, kids are raised to be either future adult-shaped infants, or future enablers. Maybe both.

The 16 years the kid has lived chronologically have generally been in a very twisted, maladaptive environment. They didn't get 16 years of normal cause and effect, normal interpersonal interactions in which people respond appropriately to negative behavior, or normal boundaries and social expectations. Their reasons for choosing to use in the first place come partly from the twisted head space they develop, which is frequently nourished and reinforced by the people around them. When-- if-- the user emerges from the fog years later, gets away from the addictive practice, and decides to live, a whole lot of what they have to do is unlearning some of the bad logic, false assumptions, and messed up values that have made up their world view. A lot of what they knew, or thought they knew, is just plain wrong. They truly don't know what's right or what's normal.

Here's an example. Two imaginary 16-year-old high school girls are in the principal's office for dress code violations. Both are being written up and punished in some way. Both are embarrassed at having been singled out. But they react in very different ways.

Kid #1, raised in a normal cause and effect environment, understands she's in the office because of something she chose to wear. She knew the rules, chose not to follow them, and is experiencing a pretty predictable result even though she's gotten away with wearing similar clothing in the past. She also knows that when the punishment is over, it's over. So she sees no point in making the situation worse than it is. After the incident is over, she makes better choices about what to wear to school.

Kid #2, raised in an abnormal environment, understands she's in the office because her teacher is being an unreasonable bitch who's out to get her. She also knew the rules, but she truly doesn't believe they should apply to her or that there should be consequences for breaking them. She believes the rules are stupid and that people are wrong to impose them on her. Her belief in her moral rectitude is sincere, and it's also self defense. Since she's used to being hit or beaten for any action that displeases an adult, she has reason to believe that any mistake will not only result in a beating but will be held against her and thrown in her face for months or years. She therefore refuses to admit that she did anything wrong even though it's obvious her clothing violates the dress code. She searches desperately for reasons why it's not her fault: someone else bought her the clothing, or she got away with wearing it before so that's "proof" the rules aren't real. Meanwhile she doubles down on her bet by continuing to find and wear similar clothes in the future. These are necessary survival behaviors. Every time an authority figure fails to report the dress code violations, in her mind she "wins" because she sees proof she's right about why the rules don't matter and she doesn't have to follow them. Every time she gets called on the violation, in her mind she "wins" because she sees proof the people around her are wrong or unreasonable, therefore what she's doing is right and acceptable.

Now, suppose Kid #2, age 16, were to start using tomorrow. She wouldn't be frozen emotionally at age 16. She'd be frozen at the developmental level she has, with severely maladaptive behaviors. Her understanding of causality, marred as it is by magical thinking, is at about a 3-year-old's.

Fast-forward a couple decades, and Kid #1 and Kid #2 meet again at their high school reunion. Kid #2 has stepped away from her addictive practice but is less than a year sober. Kid #1 has a mainstream job, maybe a spouse and some kids. They decide to hang out a bit and get caught up. Is Kid #2 likely to make a strong hint that her friend ought to "lend" her money, or see anything wrong with going through her friend's purse to find and borrow some lipstick?

Marty

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1881 on: September 15, 2016, 01:13:24 PM »
I was texting my mom last night when she told me that their washer broke.  Turns out my dad believes it's cheaper to buy a brand new washer rather than to fix the current one they have.  They sent me a picture of the washer they wanted with the price tag next to it...$699!  And to top it off, of course they NEED to get the matching dryer at the tune of another $699.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with the dryer they have now, but it HAD to match.  Not sure what they're going to do with the current dryer, but I'll gladly take it if they're going to toss it.

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1882 on: September 15, 2016, 01:21:31 PM »
Addicts get stuck emotionally at the age they first started using. So if they started using at 16 then emotionally they are a 16 yo when they quit.

Not exactly, though stagnated development can occur.  Its more like they are a 16 year old who has PTSD and the inability to frame their world into a "standard" viewpoint that non-addicts see...  But saying its more of a pause button situation isn't really accurate, you can't just un-pause and wait two years and consider them an 18yo.

Edit:  I should refresh the thread more.  TGS nailed it on the head.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 01:37:35 PM by PriestTheRunner »

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5657
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1883 on: September 15, 2016, 01:26:40 PM »
I was texting my mom last night when she told me that their washer broke.  Turns out my dad believes it's cheaper to buy a brand new washer rather than to fix the current one they have.  They sent me a picture of the washer they wanted with the price tag next to it...$699!  And to top it off, of course they NEED to get the matching dryer at the tune of another $699.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with the dryer they have now, but it HAD to match.  Not sure what they're going to do with the current dryer, but I'll gladly take it if they're going to toss it.
Wow, I cant imagine the decor in your  own house if you cannot appreciate the simple necessity of color matched washer and dryers.

Haha, kidding!

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1884 on: September 15, 2016, 01:28:22 PM »
GS: I know all that. I had worked in that field for many years.  I was trying to simply for people not working in that field.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1885 on: September 15, 2016, 01:30:04 PM »
PTR: No the addict will need counseling, treatment, self help groups, etc to increase their maturity level. Things do not happen by magic.

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1886 on: September 15, 2016, 01:40:27 PM »
PTR: No the addict will need counseling, treatment, self help groups, etc to increase their maturity level. Things do not happen by magic.

GS: I know all that. I had worked in that field for many years.  I was trying to simply for people not working in that field.

How many Nueros are on here?  I normally don't run into any on the other two forums I frequent...  lol

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • Location: Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1887 on: September 15, 2016, 03:28:29 PM »
My treasured mother called me today. After looking up a few things, she explained "I owe the CRA twelve thousand dollars." Then she says to my bewilderment, "I have no idea how it could have gotten this bad."

I'm puzzled. "We do know mother. You didn't properly fill out your TD1 forms for your employers." My dear, widow mother works two full-time jobs and has never filled out a TD1 form correctly. As a result her employers ignorantly don't deduct enough taxes from her paycheques over the year.

She states, "Maybe that's why." Now me, being a big confused why she waffles on this, replies "No mother, it is not a maybe." I prep my cherry voice. "It is the reason. We've been over this twice."

As an aside, I kinda find the Canadian tax system disgusting. My poor, widow mother makes less than a third my hourly salary but pays more taxes than I do. (Because of various deductions, my first ~43K is not taxable income but only her first 12K is not taxed.)

An update on my beloved mother's story:

- She contacted CPP, they will start deducting income taxes appropriately
- She contacted her first job, they'll start deducting additional taxes
- She gave notice to her second job because frankly the work isn't worth it. I think the discovery that she is effectively only actually making 60-70% of the hourly rate (because of taxes) convinced her to stop working there. It is not a pleasant job.
- The CRA, whom for years I claim is the friendliest government agency, offered her the solution of them putting an interest free lien on her home (when she sells it they'll get paid the amount owing in back taxes). They also explained how to mitigate this in the future (see the two first bullets).

I still dislike the tax system and how the current government has decided to throw horizontal tax equality under the bus but somehow, through all this madness, the CRA rarely ceases to amaze me at how competent they are at being a decent organization.

K-ice

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 982
  • Location: Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1888 on: September 15, 2016, 06:46:08 PM »


An update on my beloved mother's story:
...
- The CRA, whom for years I claim is the friendliest government agency, offered her the solution of them putting an interest free lien on her home (when she sells it they'll get paid the amount owing in back taxes).

Wow, that seams generious. I imagine it is maybe available only to seniors...

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • Location: Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1889 on: September 15, 2016, 07:16:11 PM »
Wow, that seams generious. I imagine it is maybe available only to seniors...

CRA is just the most gangsta institute in the government. I've contemplated this before and the logical conclusion is that the CRA doesn't benefit from being harsh so it might as well be kind.

Some of the other departments in government or crown corporation are.........not as pleasant. Immigration is basically hell, CBC1 is a revolving door of corruption and sexual assault cases, NSLSC just doesn't understand its mandate, Fisheries And Oceans Canada has done a stellar job, absolutely stellar job at slashing fish populations, and my favourite least favourite has to be AirCanada. Somehow it still exists. No one understands how but it still exists.

1 It is not a rare sight to have a CBC host, who officiated a party's director's wedding, interview the father of the same director and neither reveal their ties. Or a reporter harassing five governments straight to get a senate appointment. Or someone being a paid contractor for a political party being a paid commentor (again, no disclosure).
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 07:29:42 PM by kayvent »

Goldielocks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7062
  • Location: BC
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1890 on: September 16, 2016, 12:15:54 AM »
She resolved everything so fast that I wonder if the whole story was made up. Read the end of it.
I'll bet you are right. It was resolved entirely too neatly.

Not so neatly...

They are still out about $6000+....  but I guess they had planned to spend $2500 (condo rental) + $300 (dress) + $1800 (rehearsal dinner for 30) + $800 (gift "very expensive bowls, pots and pans)....    and the OP is getting to take a mini 3 day vacation with friends and kids at the lake now, too....


LeRainDrop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1834
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1891 on: September 16, 2016, 12:25:34 AM »
She resolved everything so fast that I wonder if the whole story was made up. Read the end of it.
I'll bet you are right. It was resolved entirely too neatly.

Not so neatly...

They are still out about $6000+....  but I guess they had planned to spend $2500 (condo rental) + $300 (dress) + $1800 (rehearsal dinner for 30) + $800 (gift "very expensive bowls, pots and pans)....    and the OP is getting to take a mini 3 day vacation with friends and kids at the lake now, too....

Sadly, they locked the thread today after many people were questioning if the story was fake, but before the OP ever relayed how the "confrontation dinner" went.  Seeing how frequently the OP had posted before the dinner, and then not at all after, I'm giving up my naivety and agreeing with Cassie that it was all a ruse.

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5657
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1892 on: September 17, 2016, 01:41:48 PM »
She resolved everything so fast that I wonder if the whole story was made up. Read the end of it.
I'll bet you are right. It was resolved entirely too neatly.

Not so neatly...

They are still out about $6000+....  but I guess they had planned to spend $2500 (condo rental) + $300 (dress) + $1800 (rehearsal dinner for 30) + $800 (gift "very expensive bowls, pots and pans)....    and the OP is getting to take a mini 3 day vacation with friends and kids at the lake now, too....

Sadly, they locked the thread today after many people were questioning if the story was fake, but before the OP ever relayed how the "confrontation dinner" went.  Seeing how frequently the OP had posted before the dinner, and then not at all after, I'm giving up my naivety and agreeing with Cassie that it was all a ruse.
A fun ride, though. :)

canuck_24

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1893 on: September 19, 2016, 11:17:16 AM »
I need a quick vent about family.  My older brother is in financial straits at the moment due to uprooting his family in order to get treatment for my oldest niece.  It’s been a rough year, they’ve all pulled through amazingly, and everyone is now in a great place as far as health and wellness are concerned.  My brother has never been good with money and has years’ worth of bad financial decisions, and yet, he so rarely asks me for help, that I refuse to say “no” the few times he does ask (which I realize probably makes me an enabler, but… well, I love the guy more than I love FIRE, what can I say).  They were in the middle of their relocation last year the weekend I got married, and with both breadwinners quitting their jobs for the move and paying numerous expenses (and previous poor financial choices) they didn’t have $1000 for the damage deposit on the new place.  They asked me if they could borrow it, fully open about saying they had no idea when they’d be able to pay it back.  I ran up to my hotel room and grabbed the cash out of some of the wedding cards we had received as gifts and handed it to them, saying something along the lines of “I hate having anything to do with money and family combined, so PLEASE do not make me chase you for this.  I’m not going to hound you and call you and ask you to repay it, it will just sit there as this ‘thing’ between us for all eternity until you pay it.  I get that you have no spare cash and no job prospects and life is going to be hard for quite a while.  I’m okay with that, just pay it back when you can.”

Now, I honestly never really expected to see this money again, and to some extent I’m okay with that, they truly needed a hand up at the time.  Since then I’ve also GIVEN them money, no  strings attached to pay for other things they couldn’t afford (their kid’s school fees last year for example).

This summer, my brother wanted to treat his family to something special to thank all the kids for supporting eachother over the last year.  They had moved to an area that was close to some wonderful skiing, and wanted to buy a family pass.  It was a nice gesture, and again, I could see where he was coming from.  If the pass is purchased early enough, it is quite reasonably priced: $600 for unlimited skiing for his family of 6 for the upcoming season.  Unfortunately he couldn’t come up with the $600 by the time the sale was ending.  He was loathe to ask me for the money, and I could see he really didn’t want to ask. I felt like he was going to buy this pass as soon as he had the money, and it was just going to end up costing him more and more the longer he took to come up with the money, so I offered to loan him the $600 on top of the existing $1000 that he already owed me.  He said something like “That’s why I didn’t want to ask you.  I feel bad that we haven’t paid that back yet.  No, I don’t want to borrow it from you, I’ll ask Mom & Dad.”  My parents don’t have a lot of money, but they are regularly lending what they do have to my brother and it makes me crazy.  I’d rather he borrow from me and not pay me back than borrow from them!  Anyways, as it turns out, he either couldn’t get a hold of them, or they didn’t have any spare cash at the time, or whatever.. eventually he calls me back and asks if the offer is still there to borrow the $600.  Of course it is, I give the same speech about “pay back when you can, I’m glad you are showing your family appreciation, but when you guys get back on your feet, don’t make me chase you, etc”, and I pay for the ski pass.

Again, I’m okay with all of that.  I have a hunch I won’t see this money again either, and I can live with that.. until today’s facebook post from my brother.  He put a down-payment on a new “toy”… the toy being a used truck to go 4x4ing in!  What?!  What?!?  Argh!

Yes I have read the previous posts on this thread about setting up a contract and a repayment scheme and whatnot.  I have done that in the past when loaning larger sums, or to friends/more distant relatives; I’m not going to do that for a $1600 loan to my big brother.  Yes, I’m an enabler.  Yes, I “knew better” given his history.  I’m hoping that this new toy was maybe a very cheap purchase in exchange for him doing an odd-job for someone, or something like that, but the words “down payment” make me doubt that’s the case.  It just infuriates me to see new toys splashed all over facebook when they’ll turn around and say they can’t afford to pay for basic needs or family gifts.  I just needed to vent.  Grumble grumble grumble…

The thing is… if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably do the exact same thing, and that probably makes me a naïve idiot, but… well, no excuse, it is what it is.  I can’t have a six figure bank account and turn around and refuse to lend my family a few hundred bucks. I. just. can’t.  I do wish they didn’t rip my heart out every time I do give them the money though.

TexasRunner

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Somewhere in Tejas
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1894 on: September 19, 2016, 11:23:43 AM »
The thing is… if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably do the exact same thing, and that probably makes me a naïve idiot, but… well, no excuse, it is what it is.  I can’t have a six figure bank account and turn around and refuse to lend my family a few hundred bucks. I. just. can’t.  I do wish they didn’t rip my heart out every time I do give them the money though.

This part.  The 1600$ is what?  .5% of your net worth?  Write it off as a loss in your head, and if you do ever get it back then Yay!  If not, you wont carry it with you.

I know that doesn't really help but you get the point.  My 2 cents, it might be worth literally writing it off, on paper, somewhere in your personal files.  Acknowledge that it is 'gone'.  You'll be mad for the afternoon but it'll give you some sort of closure...

ducky19

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 763
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1895 on: September 19, 2016, 12:56:51 PM »
+1

I had an ex girlfriend years ago who I helped finance furniture. When we split up, we had a payment arrangement set up where she would pay me every two weeks. Everything went well for the first couple of payments, then I had to start calling her. Soon I couldn't even get in touch with her through her family. At that point, I realized that was my insurance that I'd never have to see her ever again! I stopped hound

Granted, this being your brother you want to see him again. I definitely agree that you should just write it off though, but I don't think I'd continue to help him out anymore.

kayvent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
  • Location: Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1896 on: September 19, 2016, 02:23:01 PM »
The thing is… if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably do the exact same thing, and that probably makes me a naïve idiot, but… well, no excuse, it is what it is.  I can’t have a six figure bank account and turn around and refuse to lend my family a few hundred bucks. I. just. can’t.  I do wish they didn’t rip my heart out every time I do give them the money though.

I don't think that makes you a naive idiot. I'd do the same thing. I think it is just a matter of priorities. To myself, debt repayment is a high priority. To some, money is fleeting and therefore debt repayment is lower than improving life satisfaction. In these circumstances, we just need to have grace towards our loved ones. They don't have malice. I think using the terms "enabling" or "enabler" is derogatory/unsuitable in this context but that is a different matter.

I'd either try not to care about the toy or, depending on how open the relationship is, express that my feelings were hurt that they prioritized a downpayment over a repayment.

By the way, until your post I had no idea what 4x4ing was.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 02:24:39 PM by kayvent »

Primm

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Australia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1897 on: September 19, 2016, 05:57:34 PM »
"A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his 
journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”"

mustachepungoeshere

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2404
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1898 on: September 19, 2016, 06:21:39 PM »
I need a quick vent ... my older brother

Perfect, I need a quick vent about my brother-in-law! Not strictly a money rant, but a rant all the same.

In July he started working FIFO, and has to drive from his city to ours, then fly from our city to his work destination. He asked if he could stay with us the night before his early flight. Sure.

He asked to spend one night with us. He did not ask if he could spend one night with us every fortnight for the next six months. He just ... let us pick up on that along the way.

While it is fine that he stays, it is logistically difficult for us because his roster has him staying with us on the worst possible night for my work schedule (I could get home anywhere between 7pm and 10pm) and it's a night my husband is almost guaranteed to be travelling.

Given that no-one is likely to be home to let him in, we need to make other arrangements.

He gave me the first few dates of his roster (sometimes he's out there for a week, sometimes a fortnight), then stopped, even though he has his roster for the entire six months. In an email. Which he could forward me.

He just called my husband:
BiL: Hey, what are you doing?
H: Just leaving for the airport.
BiL: Oh. Is it still ok* if I stay at yours tonight? (*still ok implying he's even mentioned this to us!)

My husband agreed but did give him talking to about how it might be polite to give us more than three hours' notice that he wants to spend the night so that we can sort out keys, etc.

I appreciate that this is a new concept for BiL who doesn't even lock his front door. He lives in a beach suburb, so this is seriously not recommended, but he leaves it open so his mates can crash on his couch after a night out or an early surf.

The good news: regular visits from BiL means I'm getting him talking money and budgets. So far I've rolled over his super, discussed his budget, and pointed out ways he can make the most of his FIFO time.

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7408
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1899 on: September 19, 2016, 06:39:04 PM »

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

Don't be. He's the one who's being rude here - he should have specifically asked if all this was ok. He should have given you way more than 3 hours notice. Maybe the fact that the house isn't "guest ready" will clue him into the fact that he's been incredibly rude and inconsiderate. And he has, and is. YOU do not need to feel embarrassed.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!