Relatives who just don't get it

[ender]

My whole family (especially my father) treat me like the village idiot because I never jumped on the "buy a house" bandwagon. 

I have no idea why my family is so gung ho on real estate.

This is pretty easy, kids buying a house is a huge status symbol for parents.

Oh, kid bought a house? They've made it! Social status++  Kid has made it. Kid is successful!

It's just a cultural status symbol which is easily externally recognizable and identifiable. Same with cars, to some extent. Much harder to say "oh my kid has a net worth of $250k by age 30" for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that most of us spend considerably effort to avoid parents prone to caring about the "buy a house" bandwagon from knowing.

[Paul der Krake]

My whole family (especially my father) treat me like the village idiot because I never jumped on the "buy a house" bandwagon. 

I have no idea why my family is so gung ho on real estate.

This is pretty easy, kids buying a house is a huge status symbol for parents.

Oh, kid bought a house? They've made it! Social status++  Kid has made it. Kid is successful!

It's just a cultural status symbol which is easily externally recognizable and identifiable. Same with cars, to some extent. Much harder to say "oh my kid has a net worth of $250k by age 30" for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that most of us spend considerably effort to avoid parents prone to caring about the "buy a house" bandwagon from knowing.

I work with a guy in his mid-twenties who just bought a house. Now to his credit, he's going to rent rooms and basically live for free on top of building equity.

He is now convinced he is the smartest, best personal finance whizz in town. Getting a FHA mortgage on a 110k property at age 26 is nothing to be particularly proud of, but man is he proud of his accomplishment (and lets the whole building know about it).

[zolotiyeruki]

It's just a cultural status symbol which is easily externally recognizable and identifiable. Same with cars, to some extent. Much harder to say "oh my kid has a net worth of $250k by age 30" for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that most of us spend considerably effort to avoid parents prone to caring about the "buy a house" bandwagon from knowing.

I wonder if part of it is the visibility of it.  You can show pictures of the house and/or car, but your kid probably isn't sending you selfies with his IRA statement.

[Adventine]

It's just a cultural status symbol which is easily externally recognizable and identifiable. Same with cars, to some extent. Much harder to say "oh my kid has a net worth of $250k by age 30" for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that most of us spend considerably effort to avoid parents prone to caring about the "buy a house" bandwagon from knowing.

I wonder if part of it is the visibility of it.  You can show pictures of the house and/or car, but your kid probably isn't sending you selfies with his IRA statement.

For sure.

[WerKater]

It's just a cultural status symbol which is easily externally recognizable and identifiable. Same with cars, to some extent. Much harder to say "oh my kid has a net worth of $250k by age 30" for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that most of us spend considerably effort to avoid parents prone to caring about the "buy a house" bandwagon from knowing.

I wonder if part of it is the visibility of it.  You can show pictures of the house and/or car, but your kid probably isn't sending you selfies with his IRA statement.

Absolutely, but I think ender hit the nail on the head with "easily externally recognizable and identifiable". My brokerage account is worth more than the average house in my home region but even if I did go on Facebook now and posted a screenshot, nobody would have a way of verifying it. For all they know, I might have faked the screenshot(*). A house just seems more real (for lack of a better word), and people think intuitively that it can't be faked. It's nonsense, of course. The house might be (probably is) bought on credit. But that's not how people look at it, intuitively.

(*) By the way, I think that even if I can prove to somebody that my account is real, they would react differently than to a house. I suppose a fancy house is a good way to consume conspicuously, without appearing to be conspicuous on purpose. Whereas posting an account screenshot can only be boasting.

[Silverwood]

The house thing to me is part of growing up. So you feel more "adult".  Also a forced savings of sort. I have a few Co workers who don't drive or own a house and yet still can't pay their bills on time.  If I had found mmm sooner I think I would of skipped the house and spent my 10 years saving. It's not the mortgage that gets me it's all the extras. The tools, maintenance and time to keep things working and running smoothly. Now I picture selling the house and setting off  into the sunset in an r.v haha

[Us2bCool]

The house thing to me is part of growing up. So you feel more "adult".  Also a forced savings of sort. I have a few Co workers who don't drive or own a house and yet still can't pay their bills on time.  If I had found mmm sooner I think I would of skipped the house and spent my 10 years saving. It's not the mortgage that gets me it's all the extras. The tools, maintenance and time to keep things working and running smoothly. Now I picture selling the house and setting off  into the sunset in an r.v haha

Talk about something that needs tools and maintenance :-)

[Miss Unleaded]

I got one, but I imagine it's a fairly common scenario.

When my now husband and I were engaged, a lot of my female relatives were anxious to see 'the rock'. When I explained that I didn't get an engagement ring because I rarely wear jewelry and think diamonds are a waste of money, most of them waved that off and said that if he really loved me then he would show it by getting the biggest diamond he could afford, even if I said I didn't want one. The fact that he didn't buy one against my wishes meant he didn't really care about me. My SIL in particular was so insistent that I even started to doubt him a little bit, until I remembered how scary my father is and no man would propose marriage after meeting him unless he was serious.

Sadly, I think I lost a fair bit of status in their eyes by not having some bling.

[Papa Mustache]

Skip the rock.

Horrendous stories about diamond mines and the industry if you care to look for them.

DW is scared she'd lose the rock - as in it would fall out of the setting. Neither of us have worn any rings for years.

[mtn]

I got one, but I imagine it's a fairly common scenario.

When my now husband and I were engaged, a lot of my female relatives were anxious to see 'the rock'. When I explained that I didn't get an engagement ring because I rarely wear jewelry and think diamonds are a waste of money, most of them waved that off and said that if he really loved me then he would show it by getting the biggest diamond he could afford, even if I said I didn't want one. The fact that he didn't buy one against my wishes meant he didn't really care about me. My SIL in particular was so insistent that I even started to doubt him a little bit, until I remembered how scary my father is and no man would propose marriage after meeting him unless he was serious.

Sadly, I think I lost a fair bit of status in their eyes by not having some bling.

Spend $50 on a CZ. 95% of people won't know the difference.

Or don't, and tell them to shove it because you don't value yourself based on what they think of you, but rather what you think of yourself.

[MgoSam]

I got one, but I imagine it's a fairly common scenario.

When my now husband and I were engaged, a lot of my female relatives were anxious to see 'the rock'. When I explained that I didn't get an engagement ring because I rarely wear jewelry and think diamonds are a waste of money, most of them waved that off and said that if he really loved me then he would show it by getting the biggest diamond he could afford, even if I said I didn't want one. The fact that he didn't buy one against my wishes meant he didn't really care about me. My SIL in particular was so insistent that I even started to doubt him a little bit, until I remembered how scary my father is and no man would propose marriage after meeting him unless he was serious.

Sadly, I think I lost a fair bit of status in their eyes by not having some bling.

I'm glad you feel this way. I absolutely hate the diamond notion and if I find someone that I want to marry I hope she agrees. If not, I'll likely bite the bullet and buy her a ring.

[greytbigdog]

I got one, but I imagine it's a fairly common scenario.

When my now husband and I were engaged, a lot of my female relatives were anxious to see 'the rock'. When I explained that I didn't get an engagement ring because I rarely wear jewelry and think diamonds are a waste of money, most of them waved that off and said that if he really loved me then he would show it by getting the biggest diamond he could afford, even if I said I didn't want one. The fact that he didn't buy one against my wishes meant he didn't really care about me. My SIL in particular was so insistent that I even started to doubt him a little bit, until I remembered how scary my father is and no man would propose marriage after meeting him unless he was serious.

Sadly, I think I lost a fair bit of status in their eyes by not having some bling.

Yes to this! 
In my case, it was the husband's relatives that gave him a hard time, I didn't really care either way.

I'd proposed to him, so I think the family pressure from his super traditional family might have influenced him into buying a ring.  But I have a family member that's a jeweler, so DH ended up buying something pretty, wearable for everyday, and that was not expensive (my criteria was he couldn't be upset about the cost if I ever lost it).

[shelivesthedream]

It's the marriage that lasts for life, not the engagement. That's why I've got a nice plain gold wedding ring but we didn't bother with an engagement ring. I've never understood it, really - you flaunt your temporary pre-marital promised state on your finger for life? Or you buy an expensive ring and don't wear it? Seriously, apart from showing off (which I realise is important to some people), what is the point these days??

[canuck_24]

Skip the rock.

Horrendous stories about diamond mines and the industry if you care to look for them.

DW is scared she'd lose the rock - as in it would fall out of the setting. Neither of us have worn any rings for years.

Woah.. take it easy there Mybigtoe!  While I'm not denying that there are gruesome stories out there, it is important to keep in mind you can also buy ethically mined diamonds, not all mining is horrendous.  For starters, there are several diamond mines in Canada which have good safety and environmental records.

[MgoSam]

It's the marriage that lasts for life, not the engagement.

ABSOLUTELY!

There's an amazing couple that hosts the Bible study I go to, they are clearly affluent as they own a remodeling company, own a few rentals and have two more coming to market this year with tenants lined up (bought a dilapated townhouse and gutted it and are working to get it ready for inspection by the end of the month). A few weeks ago his wife showed me her ring and mentioned, "This is an updated from what he gave me when he proposed," and then proudly mentioned, "I got it for $100 a few years ago, when he proposed the ring was maybe $15, but we didn't have much then." I wanted to hug her I loved this story so much.

[onlykelsey]

It's the marriage that lasts for life, not the engagement. That's why I've got a nice plain gold wedding ring but we didn't bother with an engagement ring. I've never understood it, really - you flaunt your temporary pre-marital promised state on your finger for life? Or you buy an expensive ring and don't wear it? Seriously, apart from showing off (which I realise is important to some people), what is the point these days??

I'm not sure if there's a similar history in the UK, but in the US they've historically been viewed as a bit of a consolation prize to the woman should the man die or leave or dishonor her.  So a high-class very desirable wife would have a bigger ring, as she has a lot to lose if she gets left alone.  Obviously this is more important when virginity/etc is highly valued.  Women have historically been granted the right to keep the ring, even if the man sues for it back.

[shelivesthedream]

It's the marriage that lasts for life, not the engagement.

ABSOLUTELY!

There's an amazing couple that hosts the Bible study I go to, they are clearly affluent as they own a remodeling company, own a few rentals and have two more coming to market this year with tenants lined up (bought a dilapated townhouse and gutted it and are working to get it ready for inspection by the end of the month). A few weeks ago his wife showed me her ring and mentioned, "This is an updated from what he gave me when he proposed," and then proudly mentioned, "I got it for $100 a few years ago, when he proposed the ring was maybe $15, but we didn't have much then." I wanted to hug her I loved this story so much.

But that's even crazier! If it's an "updated" ring then it's not an engagement ring, it's just some ring.

[MgoSam]

It's the marriage that lasts for life, not the engagement.

ABSOLUTELY!

There's an amazing couple that hosts the Bible study I go to, they are clearly affluent as they own a remodeling company, own a few rentals and have two more coming to market this year with tenants lined up (bought a dilapated townhouse and gutted it and are working to get it ready for inspection by the end of the month). A few weeks ago his wife showed me her ring and mentioned, "This is an updated from what he gave me when he proposed," and then proudly mentioned, "I got it for $100 a few years ago, when he proposed the ring was maybe $15, but we didn't have much then." I wanted to hug her I loved this story so much.

But that's even crazier! If it's an "updated" ring then it's not an engagement ring, it's just some ring.

I suppose, I don't know much about rings other than they are shiny and they can be expensive. I may be wrong as to when she said she got the ring (she might have said a few decades instead of a few years, they are a white-haired couple), but I took it as a positive that she didn't get a ring that cost many tens of thousands, but instead picked something that she liked and wouldn't worry about if she lost it.

[Slee_stack]

Going to visit Mom this summer.  She's a snowbird.  I don't often see her in the summertime, but she has a bunch of things that need fixing up in her condo up north.

Understandably, she's anxious to know the dates I'm coming up and I told her I'm researching flights now.

As it is, the cheapest flight to the closest airport is about $400.

I could take another airline for which I have a buddy pass and it would cost me nothing, but I would have to go into the next closest airport, adding about 30min each way drive times needed to reach her place.

She responded with 'Ohh $400 isn't that much, that's like $30 or so a month for the year'.  So basically, 120 total mins/miles isn't worth the $400 savings!  I guess the extra time is more valuable than $200/hr.  Hmm.


I wanted to respond with 'Well, yeah $400 certainly isn't much when you're not the one paying for it!' but I was actually stunned by the whole 'monthly cost' justification mindset she automatically trotted out.  Wow!  Gee $30/mo doesn't sound so bad huh?

Anyway, I'll look into other pickup/dropoff options.  She's too old to change anything, but its a little annoying she's so willing to throw my money away.

[MgoSam]

For $400 it might be worth it to rent a car, even if you have to pay for parking.

[zephyr911]

I got one, but I imagine it's a fairly common scenario.

When my now husband and I were engaged, a lot of my female relatives were anxious to see 'the rock'. When I explained that I didn't get an engagement ring because I rarely wear jewelry and think diamonds are a waste of money, most of them waved that off and said that if he really loved me then he would show it by getting the biggest diamond he could afford, even if I said I didn't want one. The fact that he didn't buy one against my wishes meant he didn't really care about me. My SIL in particular was so insistent that I even started to doubt him a little bit, until I remembered how scary my father is and no man would propose marriage after meeting him unless he was serious.

Sadly, I think I lost a fair bit of status in their eyes by not having some bling.

I'm glad you feel this way. I absolutely hate the diamond notion and if I find someone that I want to marry I hope she agrees. If not, I'll likely bite the bullet and buy her a ring.

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

[MgoSam]

I got one, but I imagine it's a fairly common scenario.

When my now husband and I were engaged, a lot of my female relatives were anxious to see 'the rock'. When I explained that I didn't get an engagement ring because I rarely wear jewelry and think diamonds are a waste of money, most of them waved that off and said that if he really loved me then he would show it by getting the biggest diamond he could afford, even if I said I didn't want one. The fact that he didn't buy one against my wishes meant he didn't really care about me. My SIL in particular was so insistent that I even started to doubt him a little bit, until I remembered how scary my father is and no man would propose marriage after meeting him unless he was serious.

Sadly, I think I lost a fair bit of status in their eyes by not having some bling.

I'm glad you feel this way. I absolutely hate the diamond notion and if I find someone that I want to marry I hope she agrees. If not, I'll likely bite the bullet and buy her a ring.

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

That's awesome! I've read that the concept of a man surprising his gf with a diamond ring proposal was thought up by Madison Ave because they felt that women are more practical with money and so wouldn't spend nearly as much. I don't know if it is true, but I'm glad that your wife talked you away from buying a ring.

[Papa Mustache]

Skip the rock.

Horrendous stories about diamond mines and the industry if you care to look for them.

DW is scared she'd lose the rock - as in it would fall out of the setting. Neither of us have worn any rings for years.

Woah.. take it easy there Mybigtoe!  While I'm not denying that there are gruesome stories out there, it is important to keep in mind you can also buy ethically mined diamonds, not all mining is horrendous.  For starters, there are several diamond mines in Canada which have good safety and environmental records.

Oh I know there are "good" mines. If you want the rock - go for it. I won't criticize. All I ask of society is some general awareness of the larger world. Make conscious choices. You likely know far more about it than I do. ;)

My statement sounded worse than I intended it to.

Gave my DW a diamond that came off of a family ring that was given to me after a great-grandparent died. Who knows where that rock came from.

DW wore it for a while and then we realized that we just weren't ring people. We figure we got in as cheap as we could b/c we were young and poor still paying for college, with an eye towards the future when we would want a place of our own to buy and to start a family. A $5K ring would just delay all that in our minds.

We just had to buy the band and have the diamond set. I bought a plain gold band for myself which I ruined at work several years later. Never replaced it.

Tradition might have positive intentions but it makes me worry that it is the result of an antique marketing plan for the companies selling us that notion. Sort of like buying china and silver b/c marital tradition dictates that even if the china and silver never gets used.

[Warlord1986]

It's the marriage that lasts for life, not the engagement.

ABSOLUTELY!

There's an amazing couple that hosts the Bible study I go to, they are clearly affluent as they own a remodeling company, own a few rentals and have two more coming to market this year with tenants lined up (bought a dilapated townhouse and gutted it and are working to get it ready for inspection by the end of the month). A few weeks ago his wife showed me her ring and mentioned, "This is an updated from what he gave me when he proposed," and then proudly mentioned, "I got it for $100 a few years ago, when he proposed the ring was maybe $15, but we didn't have much then." I wanted to hug her I loved this story so much.

That's a very sweet story. ^.^

I'm not married, but I can think of a dozen ways I'd rather begin a new chapter in life that don't involve dropping a ton of money on a rock. I have nothing against diamonds, hell, I even like them. But I've got Grandmother's jewelry, and I'll inherit my mother's jewelry, and I've got some jewelry of my own (I'm the only girl so I'm pretty spoiled). A pretty ring is not a requisite to marriage. If my future husband got me a tasteful gold band that I could show my mother and that he could slip on my finger at the wedding, that'll be fine.

Then we can spend the money on a down payment for a house, or a trip to Thailand, or something interesting.

[economista]

My family is made for this forum.  My brother makes possibly the worst financial decisions I've ever encountered.  At 18 years old (and still in high school) he decided to marry his gf of 3 weeks (also in hs), who happened to be 6 months pregnant with some else's child.  They got married at the courthouse and she moved into his room at my mom's house.  He then proceeded to not graduate from high school (or get a GED) and they had 2 more children over the next year and a half.  Neither of them can keep a job for more than a few weeks and they don't pay any kind of living expenses to my mom for living in her house (or for her constant babysitting, cooking, groceries, etc).  Last Christmas my mom called me asking if I could "lend" him money to buy Christmas presents for his kids and she gives me a sob story about how he ended up without any money 1 week before Christmas.  Apparently the month prior when he and my SIL were both working at the same time (a flipping miracle in and of itself) he had taken out a payday loan and used the money to buy a flat screen tv, a Playstation 4 (or whatever the newest one was) and bunch of games.  He then proceeded to lose his job (it wasn't his fault, of course) and so he had no way to pay back the loan (they always live paycheck to paycheck and any extra money they have left over goes toward extra cigarettes).  Since he had gone roughly 3-4 weeks without paying back the loan, they had garnished his wife's paycheck and they ended up without any money for presents.   After telling my mom that I absolutely would not give them anything, I made the mistake of trying to apply logic to the situation and I couldn't figure out why he would've gotten a payday loan to buy totally unnecessary things anyway!  My mom's response was "you know how he is."  I then pointed out that his kids at the time were only 1, 2, and a newborn, and that they would be perfectly happy without a bunch of expensive noise-makers.  My mom got very irritated with me about that and said it is important to give children a "good" Christmas.  Ugh!!!

[irishbear99]

After telling my mom that I absolutely would not give them anything, I made the mistake of trying to apply logic to the situation and I couldn't figure out why he would've gotten a payday loan to buy totally unnecessary things anyway!

One of the recurring lessons in my life is that you cannot combat insanity with logic. Seems to be one of life's great paradoxes. Good for you for holding your ground in the face of insanity.

[PencilThinStash]

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

I've never had so much nerd respect for another human being. Well done, sir.

[forummm]

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

Do you call her My Precious?

[accountingteacher]

My family is made for this forum.  My brother makes possibly the worst financial decisions I've ever encountered.  At 18 years old (and still in high school) he decided to marry his gf of 3 weeks (also in hs), who happened to be 6 months pregnant with some else's child.  They got married at the courthouse and she moved into his room at my mom's house.  He then proceeded to not graduate from high school (or get a GED) and they had 2 more children over the next year and a half.  Neither of them can keep a job for more than a few weeks and they don't pay any kind of living expenses to my mom for living in her house (or for her constant babysitting, cooking, groceries, etc).  Last Christmas my mom called me asking if I could "lend" him money to buy Christmas presents for his kids and she gives me a sob story about how he ended up without any money 1 week before Christmas.  Apparently the month prior when he and my SIL were both working at the same time (a flipping miracle in and of itself) he had taken out a payday loan and used the money to buy a flat screen tv, a Playstation 4 (or whatever the newest one was) and bunch of games.  He then proceeded to lose his job (it wasn't his fault, of course) and so he had no way to pay back the loan (they always live paycheck to paycheck and any extra money they have left over goes toward extra cigarettes).  Since he had gone roughly 3-4 weeks without paying back the loan, they had garnished his wife's paycheck and they ended up without any money for presents.   After telling my mom that I absolutely would not give them anything, I made the mistake of trying to apply logic to the situation and I couldn't figure out why he would've gotten a payday loan to buy totally unnecessary things anyway!  My mom's response was "you know how he is."  I then pointed out that his kids at the time were only 1, 2, and a newborn, and that they would be perfectly happy without a bunch of expensive noise-makers.  My mom got very irritated with me about that and said it is important to give children a "good" Christmas.  Ugh!!!

I'm not entirely sure it's your brother that's the real problem.  Sound like he's been enabled to behave like that by you mother.

[Slee_stack]

Last Christmas my mom called me asking if I could "lend" him money to buy Christmas presents for his kids and she gives me a sob story about how he ended up without any money 1 week before Christmas.  Apparently the month prior when he and my SIL were both working at the same time (a flipping miracle in and of itself) he had taken out a payday loan and used the money to buy a flat screen tv, a Playstation 4 (or whatever the newest one was) and bunch of games.  He then proceeded to lose his job (it wasn't his fault, of course) and so he had no way to pay back the loan (they always live paycheck to paycheck and any extra money they have left over goes toward extra cigarettes).  Since he had gone roughly 3-4 weeks without paying back the loan, they had garnished his wife's paycheck and they ended up without any money for presents.   After telling my mom that I absolutely would not give them anything, I made the mistake of trying to apply logic to the situation and I couldn't figure out why he would've gotten a payday loan to buy totally unnecessary things anyway!  My mom's response was "you know how he is."  I then pointed out that his kids at the time were only 1, 2, and a newborn, and that they would be perfectly happy without a bunch of expensive noise-makers.  My mom got very irritated with me about that and said it is important to give children a "good" Christmas.  Ugh!!!

Cousin Eddie?!

[economista]

My family is made for this forum.  My brother makes possibly the worst financial decisions I've ever encountered.  At 18 years old (and still in high school) he decided to marry his gf of 3 weeks (also in hs), who happened to be 6 months pregnant with some else's child.  They got married at the courthouse and she moved into his room at my mom's house.  He then proceeded to not graduate from high school (or get a GED) and they had 2 more children over the next year and a half.  Neither of them can keep a job for more than a few weeks and they don't pay any kind of living expenses to my mom for living in her house (or for her constant babysitting, cooking, groceries, etc).  Last Christmas my mom called me asking if I could "lend" him money to buy Christmas presents for his kids and she gives me a sob story about how he ended up without any money 1 week before Christmas.  Apparently the month prior when he and my SIL were both working at the same time (a flipping miracle in and of itself) he had taken out a payday loan and used the money to buy a flat screen tv, a Playstation 4 (or whatever the newest one was) and bunch of games.  He then proceeded to lose his job (it wasn't his fault, of course) and so he had no way to pay back the loan (they always live paycheck to paycheck and any extra money they have left over goes toward extra cigarettes).  Since he had gone roughly 3-4 weeks without paying back the loan, they had garnished his wife's paycheck and they ended up without any money for presents.   After telling my mom that I absolutely would not give them anything, I made the mistake of trying to apply logic to the situation and I couldn't figure out why he would've gotten a payday loan to buy totally unnecessary things anyway!  My mom's response was "you know how he is."  I then pointed out that his kids at the time were only 1, 2, and a newborn, and that they would be perfectly happy without a bunch of expensive noise-makers.  My mom got very irritated with me about that and said it is important to give children a "good" Christmas.  Ugh!!!

I'm not entirely sure it's your brother that's the real problem.  Sound like he's been enabled to behave like that by you mother.

True; and she was enabled to behave that way by her parents.  It's a cycle that I am happy I escaped from.  The only reason she has a house at all is because my grandparents bought it for her. 

[Kitsune]

My family is made for this forum.  My brother makes possibly the worst financial decisions I've ever encountered.  At 18 years old (and still in high school) he decided to marry his gf of 3 weeks (also in hs), who happened to be 6 months pregnant with some else's child.  They got married at the courthouse and she moved into his room at my mom's house.  He then proceeded to not graduate from high school (or get a GED) and they had 2 more children over the next year and a half.  Neither of them can keep a job for more than a few weeks and they don't pay any kind of living expenses to my mom for living in her house (or for her constant babysitting, cooking, groceries, etc).  Last Christmas my mom called me asking if I could "lend" him money to buy Christmas presents for his kids and she gives me a sob story about how he ended up without any money 1 week before Christmas.  Apparently the month prior when he and my SIL were both working at the same time (a flipping miracle in and of itself) he had taken out a payday loan and used the money to buy a flat screen tv, a Playstation 4 (or whatever the newest one was) and bunch of games.  He then proceeded to lose his job (it wasn't his fault, of course) and so he had no way to pay back the loan (they always live paycheck to paycheck and any extra money they have left over goes toward extra cigarettes).  Since he had gone roughly 3-4 weeks without paying back the loan, they had garnished his wife's paycheck and they ended up without any money for presents.   After telling my mom that I absolutely would not give them anything, I made the mistake of trying to apply logic to the situation and I couldn't figure out why he would've gotten a payday loan to buy totally unnecessary things anyway!  My mom's response was "you know how he is."  I then pointed out that his kids at the time were only 1, 2, and a newborn, and that they would be perfectly happy without a bunch of expensive noise-makers.  My mom got very irritated with me about that and said it is important to give children a "good" Christmas.  Ugh!!!

I'm not entirely sure it's your brother that's the real problem.  Sound like he's been enabled to behave like that by you mother.

True; and she was enabled to behave that way by her parents.  It's a cycle that I am happy I escaped from.  The only reason she has a house at all is because my grandparents bought it for her.

Ugh. Those poor kids, growing up with that.

I'll agree with her on one point: I DO think it's important to give children a nice Christmas (if you celebrate, etc). But "nice" includes maybe a few pacifiers and clothing (can be thrift store bought) for the newborn, a few boxes and things to put in boxes for the 1-year-old (developmentally appropriate and they'll love it more than most actual toys), and maybe something like a play kitchen for the toddler (we got one for my daughter at Christmas when she was 1.5 - she loves it, and it was 20$ on kijiji). Add a few (thrifted, or on sale) books and, like, small plastic toys for babies (ALWAYS available in cheap lots on Craigslist, no joke) and you've got a fantastic Christmas for all for under 50$ if you shop right. No one is saying 'neglect the kids', but it is absolutely possible to give kids than age a great experience and make them feel lovedwithout spending money you can't afford.

Once they're older, "you don't ha Christmas presents because daddy spent all his money buying himself a ps4" is likely to not go over quite so well. For obvious reasons.

[shelivesthedream]

I'll agree with her on one point: I DO think it's important to give children a nice Christmas.

I also think it's important to give children a nice Christmas. However, I think you can do that without buying a single present. It's all in the way you present it to them, and having lots of nice 'family time' activities to do which are 'special'. Also special food. I agree with you that buying good presents doesn't have to be expensive, but I just don't think "lots of wrapped up things" = nice Christmas, no matter what they are.

[Kitsune]

I'll agree with her on one point: I DO think it's important to give children a nice Christmas.

I also think it's important to give children a nice Christmas. However, I think you can do that without buying a single present. It's all in the way you present it to them, and having lots of nice 'family time' activities to do which are 'special'. Also special food. I agree with you that buying good presents doesn't have to be expensive, but I just don't think "lots of wrapped up things" = nice Christmas, no matter what they are.

Oh, fair. But for a family that expressions affection in material ways, not giving presents would = not expressing love for the kids, emotionally. And there are many, many, many ways to express love, and make things special, without spending much. There are even more ways of giving presents people will love without spending much. It just takes effort and willingness and ability to think outside the mall-box, which... is apparently lacking in this situation. No joke, I feel really sorry for those kids, if this is what they're growing up with.

[TravelJunkyQC]

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

I've never had so much nerd respect for another human being. Well done, sir.

+ 1 to this. Someone brings me to the Green Dragon and proposes with an LOTR ring and I'm done, I'm saying yes.

[kina]

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

I've never had so much nerd respect for another human being. Well done, sir.

+ 1 to this. Someone brings me to the Green Dragon and proposes with an LOTR ring and I'm done, I'm saying yes.

I only know one Green Dragon...are you in Lancaster County?

[TravelJunkyQC]

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

I've never had so much nerd respect for another human being. Well done, sir.

+ 1 to this. Someone brings me to the Green Dragon and proposes with an LOTR ring and I'm done, I'm saying yes.

I only know one Green Dragon...are you in Lancaster County?

It's from LOTR... I didn't know there actually WAS one in real life. I must go!

[kina]

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

I've never had so much nerd respect for another human being. Well done, sir.

+ 1 to this. Someone brings me to the Green Dragon and proposes with an LOTR ring and I'm done, I'm saying yes.

I only know one Green Dragon...are you in Lancaster County?

It's from LOTR... I didn't know there actually WAS one in real life. I must go!

Ach! so sorry...quite different from LOTR! It's a huge swap meet/farmer's market/auction in PA.

eta: and, it's dry as well, sad to say...

[Vertical Mode]

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

I've never had so much nerd respect for another human being. Well done, sir.

+ 1 to this. Someone brings me to the Green Dragon and proposes with an LOTR ring and I'm done, I'm saying yes.

I only know one Green Dragon...are you in Lancaster County?

It's from LOTR... I didn't know there actually WAS one in real life. I must go!

Ach! so sorry...quite different from LOTR! It's a huge swap meet/farmer's market/auction in PA.

eta: and, it's dry as well, sad to say...

We have a Green Dragon here in Boston. Lovely little spot with live music and all.

Frodo and his compatriots wouldn't be out of place either, always an interesting crowd. Used to go a fair amount in my Pre-Mustachian phase.

[accountingteacher]

I'll agree with her on one point: I DO think it's important to give children a nice Christmas.

I also think it's important to give children a nice Christmas. However, I think you can do that without buying a single present. It's all in the way you present it to them, and having lots of nice 'family time' activities to do which are 'special'. Also special food. I agree with you that buying good presents doesn't have to be expensive, but I just don't think "lots of wrapped up things" = nice Christmas, no matter what they are.

The best gift she could give them is to be a better role model than their parents are.  Maybe as they get older, special outings with auntie can replace the gifts.

[forummm]

Some relatives are thinking about buying a sailboat for big ocean trips. But they are physically incapable of sailing it. One can't even stand on dry land for very long let alone a rocking boat. So it's a total waste of money on some dream they had decades ago. But then it gets worse. They are looking online at boats in the Caribbean. They would pay to have to boat sailed out to the west coast, going through the Panama Canal. You know, because there aren't any boats for sale already in the US.

[gillstone]

My older sister recently decided that for her daughter's first birthday she'd do something small.  She's just going to drive 300 miles, rent a park pavilion, and buy enough food to feed 40.  BTW she'll be doing it while she and her gentleman friend are working low wage jobs and still not living in a place of their own.

[Kitsune]

My older sister recently decided that for her daughter's first birthday she'd do something small.  She's just going to drive 300 miles, rent a park pavilion, and buy enough food to feed 40.  BTW she'll be doing it while she and her gentleman friend are working low wage jobs and still not living in a place of their own.

... Wow. Well, at least the kid isn't old enough to remember and have that be the set standard of expectation. But wow.

[LeRainDrop]

My older sister recently decided that for her daughter's first birthday she'd do something small.  She's just going to drive 300 miles, rent a park pavilion, and buy enough food to feed 40.  BTW she'll be doing it while she and her gentleman friend are working low wage jobs and still not living in a place of their own.

... Wow. Well, at least the kid isn't old enough to remember and have that be the set standard of expectation. But wow.

LOL, could they put any less effort into it?  That sounds so blase.  And a kid will only get a 1st birthday party once in their life, so it really sucks when the parents just don't do anything special to celebrate.  Are they at least buying multiple cakes and hiring a professional photographer?  /all sarcasm/

[MgoSam]

My older sister recently decided that for her daughter's first birthday she'd do something small.  She's just going to drive 300 miles, rent a park pavilion, and buy enough food to feed 40.  BTW she'll be doing it while she and her gentleman friend are working low wage jobs and still not living in a place of their own.

... Wow. Well, at least the kid isn't old enough to remember and have that be the set standard of expectation. But wow.

LOL, could they put any less effort into it?  That sounds so blase.  And a kid will only get a 1st birthday party once in their life, so it really sucks when the parents just don't do anything special to celebrate.  Are they at least buying multiple cakes and hiring a professional photographer?  /all sarcasm/

GO BIG OR....stay home?

[Kitsune]

My older sister recently decided that for her daughter's first birthday she'd do something small.  She's just going to drive 300 miles, rent a park pavilion, and buy enough food to feed 40.  BTW she'll be doing it while she and her gentleman friend are working low wage jobs and still not living in a place of their own.

... Wow. Well, at least the kid isn't old enough to remember and have that be the set standard of expectation. But wow.

LOL, could they put any less effort into it?  That sounds so blase.  And a kid will only get a 1st birthday party once in their life, so it really sucks when the parents just don't do anything special to celebrate.  Are they at least buying multiple cakes and hiring a professional photographer?  /all sarcasm/

GO BIG OR....stay home?

Oh, I LOVE the "only have a first birthday once" piece of nonsense. Like, Yes, that's how it works. One a year. A different number each time. Novel concept.

 

[DutchV]

And here's more from the "people can't be trusted" department:

In 1977, my mother's brother came to stay with us.  He'd gotten divorced and needed a place to stay while he got back on his feet (or so the story goes).  My father loaned him some tools so he could work as a mechanic. Things went okay for a week or two.  Then he talked Dad into cosigning a loan for $1,300 to consolidate his debts.  Of course, we can all see where this is headed: the deadbeat skips town without ever making a payment, taking the tools and leaving my family stuck with his debt.

We didn't see much of him afterwards.  He never did send any money.   He'd come by occasionally during the day to visit Mom when he knew Dad would be away.  I don't think I've seen him in forty years to say more than "hi".  And I'm pretty much okay with that.

[MgoSam]

My older sister recently decided that for her daughter's first birthday she'd do something small.  She's just going to drive 300 miles, rent a park pavilion, and buy enough food to feed 40.  BTW she'll be doing it while she and her gentleman friend are working low wage jobs and still not living in a place of their own.

... Wow. Well, at least the kid isn't old enough to remember and have that be the set standard of expectation. But wow.

LOL, could they put any less effort into it?  That sounds so blase.  And a kid will only get a 1st birthday party once in their life, so it really sucks when the parents just don't do anything special to celebrate.  Are they at least buying multiple cakes and hiring a professional photographer?  /all sarcasm/

GO BIG OR....stay home?

Oh, I LOVE the "only have a first birthday once" piece of nonsense. Like, Yes, that's how it works. One a year. A different number each time. Novel concept.

My sister and her husband had a really swanky first birthday for one of their children. It was over the top with catered food, entertainment, hall rental, lots of invitations (a bunch of family flew in for it). I didn't want to say anything but I kept thinking, 'Does she realize that her daughter won't remember a moment of it and she likely isn't enjoying this party at all.' And then I would just shrug and go to the open bar for a drink.

[druth]

And here's more from the "people can't be trusted" department:

In 1977, my mother's brother came to stay with us.  He'd gotten divorced and needed a place to stay while he got back on his feet (or so the story goes).  My father loaned him some tools so he could work as a mechanic. Things went okay for a week or two.  Then he talked Dad into cosigning a loan for $1,300 to consolidate his debts.  Of course, we can all see where this is headed: the deadbeat skips town without ever making a payment, taking the tools and leaving my family stuck with his debt.

We didn't see much of him afterwards.  He never did send any money.   He'd come by occasionally during the day to visit Mom when he knew Dad would be away.  I don't think I've seen him in forty years to say more than "hi".  And I'm pretty much okay with that.

Sounds like a relatively cheap way to get rid of a shitty person.

[MgoSam]

And here's more from the "people can't be trusted" department:

In 1977, my mother's brother came to stay with us.  He'd gotten divorced and needed a place to stay while he got back on his feet (or so the story goes).  My father loaned him some tools so he could work as a mechanic. Things went okay for a week or two.  Then he talked Dad into cosigning a loan for $1,300 to consolidate his debts.  Of course, we can all see where this is headed: the deadbeat skips town without ever making a payment, taking the tools and leaving my family stuck with his debt.

We didn't see much of him afterwards.  He never did send any money.   He'd come by occasionally during the day to visit Mom when he knew Dad would be away.  I don't think I've seen him in forty years to say more than "hi".  And I'm pretty much okay with that.

Sounds like a relatively cheap way to get rid of a shitty person.

I was thinking the same thing. $1300 then would be around $5300, plus you would have the cost of the tools, but that isn't so bad as he seems like the type to leach money from your mother slowly over time, and could end up costing much more than $5300.