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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: forummm on February 04, 2015, 08:45:34 AM

Title: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on February 04, 2015, 08:45:34 AM
I'll be posting regular updates here about relatives who provide much shame and comedy. Please share your own as well.

Latest: An older spendthrift relative couple (spends about $100k more than we do) are both eligible for Social Security, have a mid-6-figure nest egg, and significant health problems, but "can't afford to retire" due to their profligate waste of money. One just quit his job and is going to dip into his 401k and take part time jobs to continue to fund their extravagance. His spouse has a 6-figure income. They are also going to cut back on loan payments to "save money".

Wasting money is kind of a badge of honor for them. They buy all kinds of things they never use, spend more on eating out in a week than we do for all our food for a month, throw away leftovers, upgrade appliances they don't use, etc. They hired an electrician to replace lightbulbs that I could reach without a ladder. They order $25 pay-per-view movies at a hotel when they know they will fall asleep in 5 minutes.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on February 04, 2015, 08:53:45 AM
Another relative had a several year old car that worked just fine, but wanted to buy a brand new car to drive on long trips (because putting lots of miles on the new car is the way to go, right?). He bought a nicer car than he needed (probably paying too much for it). He owed more on the old car than he got in trade-in credit (probably got screwed on the trade-in), so he rolled that extra debt into the loan for the new car. And his new, giant loan was at 26%! I didn't even know that was possible. His interest payments are 5 times his principle payments. In the end, the interest will cost him over 5 times the purchase price of the car when including the opportunity cost of the funds.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on February 04, 2015, 08:58:10 AM
One relative has bad credit. He wants to buy a house but can't qualify. But he can't even do simple things like paying his credit card bill on time, so his credit keeps getting dinged. He'll go over the maximum limit (fee) and not pay on time (fee plus interest plus credit score ding). Since his credit is poor, his credit limit is also low. I bet the fees and interest are something like a 500% effective interest rate on his card.

But they still waste a lot of money on stuff like bottled water, Starbucks, Whole Foods, etc, even on a small income. They'll never get out of the trap.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Fodder on February 04, 2015, 09:35:21 AM
I have a family member like this.  He makes a good income, has very little in the way of obligations (renter in a one-bedroom apartment), but spends so stupidly I want to smack him.

Right out of school, when he first got a job, he bought a Jeep (a TJ, at the time).  10 years later, he still has it, but he's put THOUSANDS of dollars into it getting it jacked up, getting fancy tires, installing neoprene seats, getting fancy covers, towing systems/winches, etc.  It was his only car and he found the gas really expensive.....because it's a beast.

I should add that he very, VERY rarely goes off-road with it, and lives in a large city.

So what does he do?  Not sell it and use the proceeds to buy a reliable, well-priced used car.

Nope.  He stores it in my garage.....and bought a Volkswagon Golf TDI.  New, of course.  Fully loaded, of course.  I think it was something like $38k (Canadian) after all the options and tax.  He buys this because it's "good on gas" and has now saddled himself with a car payment for YEARS on a car that is only marginally better on gas than a car he could have paid cash for, had he been willing to sell the stupid jeep.

He recently told me that he won't be taking the Jeep out this summer (again, too expensive) and it will just live in my garage.

It just drives me crazy....seriously, he probably could have sold the Jeep for 13-14 grand, bought a great used car and had no payments, and no stupid Jeep sitting in my garage.  I let him leave it there because I have lots of space (we have one small car and the garage easily holds eight....thank the previous owner of my home for building it, because I never would have).  But because he'll "never get back the money he put into the Jeep" he leaves it sitting idle (and losing value), and because it's "good on gas," he is spending a fortune paying for a brand new car.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on February 04, 2015, 10:09:27 AM
One relative with a low income and a lot of debt bought a piano. Then he didn't have enough money to pay for rent, so he and his family moved in with her parents and put the piano in storage. So the piano (bought on credit) is sitting in storage (costing money to store) where it is unused. And he obviously couldn't afford the piano in the first place.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on February 04, 2015, 10:11:09 AM
Another relative has a 1%-er household income. After years of being high paid, his 401k balance is less than the amount he spent on his wife's ring. He doesn't even take advantage of the employer match.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on February 04, 2015, 10:14:15 AM
One spendthift relative encouraged me to buy something expensive I didn't want or need just because I could afford it. Yeah, I can afford to buy expensive things... because I don't actually buy them.

I'd rather buy VTSAX instead.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooplips on February 04, 2015, 10:21:34 AM
After finding out we cut cable my FIL made the comment "Got rid of cable. Why are you being so cheap? You need to live a little."

Somehow he considers sitting around watching cable living.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kris on February 04, 2015, 10:58:39 AM
Another relative had a several year old car that worked just fine, but wanted to buy a brand new car to drive on long trips (because putting lots of miles on the new car is the way to go, right?). He bought a nicer car than he needed (probably paying too much for it). He owed more on the old car than he got in trade-in credit (probably got screwed on the trade-in), so he rolled that extra debt into the loan for the new car. And his new, giant loan was at 26%! I didn't even know that was possible. His interest payments are 5 times his principle payments. In the end, the interest will cost him over 5 times the purchase price of the car when including the opportunity cost of the funds.

Ugh.. This reminds me of my (now reformed, fortunately) DH.  When we were dating, as we got serious he wanted to reveal to me the state of his finances (good on him, at least, for realizing that he needed to do full disclosure before allowing me to make a decision to marry him that I might regret).  Well, one of the things I discovered was a couple of credit cards, on which he had five-figure debts, with USURIOUS interest rates of 24% and 25%.  And the worst thing was that he didn't even know -- he had never looked at the interest rate.  This is a guy who has an IQ of 159.  He got an earful from me, and I immediately made him get a 0% for a year credit card and consolidate the other two card debts onto that one.  Jesus, makes my blood boil just thinking about it. 

Luckily, he gave me complete control of our finances.  He now gets an allowance, I get final say in all of the financial decisions, and we are set to retire in 3 1/2 years, when I'll be 51 and he'll be 60.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: TexasStash on February 04, 2015, 11:10:29 AM
I am exceedingly fortunate that I don't have the relatives listed here (at least that I know of... don't know the financial details of all my relatives). My parents are somewhat spendthrift by Mustachian standards, but they still saved a substantial portion of their high incomes and are thus in quite a solid position to retire soon. Much of their financial wisdom I hope to pass along to my kids.

Pooplips - That is hilarious. I watch far too much TV via Netflix and Hulu Plus and over-the-air, but even I realize how this is not really "living". There might be certain circumstances where I might agree being too cheap keeps us from living a little, but having cable TV is definitely not one of them.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: golden1 on February 04, 2015, 12:02:57 PM
My mom is a treasure trove of bad financial decision making stories.  She can't do too much damage now, because she only has SS disability.  However, her mother (my grandmother) died a year ago, and she got a small inheritance from her (maybe in the low 5 figures).   She had been without a car for 3-4 years, so she decides to buy another car.  Instead of buying a fuel efficient, reliable Corolla or something else that would hold up, she bought a 7 year old Ford Explorer that was in bad shape with a lot of miles on it.  A few months after buying it, the transmission went.  So now she is without a car again. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: cavewoman on February 04, 2015, 12:18:28 PM
My SO's 2 sisters.

One has a really good job, making really good money, but she's so into expensive clothing, hair, makeup, weekends, etc. that after getting together her security deposit, and first and last months' rent to move, she had to borrow $200 from her parents (who live on a substitute teacher's salary and whatever her dad can scrape together by working a couple days a month and fixing and selling stuff). 

Then it's hard to write about her (actually both sisters) not getting it financially without adding in questionable aspects of their child-raising, but it makes me too mad, so I'll try to hold back.

The other finally got a job after 2 years of not working, except for the occasional massage.  Her well dried up last summer, she never evicted the tenants that live on that same property that stopped paying rent when the well dried up, she had to move into her boyfriend's parents' house with her 3 kids, and because her tenants haven't been paying rent and she hasn't been working, she is way behind on her mortgage.  Yet.  Brings her kids to her folks so they can babysit while she goes to parties every Friday night.  Smokes.  Her parent's just put her on their car insurance, her car has been unregistered for almost a year, it's a stupid big BMW she got from some guy she was having an affair with, oh my golly gee I have to stop typing before I bust an artery.

Of course none of that is her fault, it's the world working against her.  She's a POS mom.

My SO and I don't have kids yet, but his parent's have 6 grandkids with 6 different dads.  I know that's not the end all be all of them being shitty people but DAMN.

I'll take a couple of deep breaths and remind myself it's outside of my control, but I just feel bad for the kids.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: eyePod on February 04, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
frugality as a get-rich-quick scheme.

Hah! It's quicker and more reliable than any other option.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Eric on February 04, 2015, 12:55:35 PM
One relative with a low income and a lot of debt bought a piano. Then he didn't have enough money to pay for rent, so he and his family moved in with her parents and put the piano in storage. So the piano (bought on credit) is sitting in storage (costing money to store) where it is unused. And he obviously couldn't afford the piano in the first place.

Ouch!  Wow, that's ridiculous.  I imagine it was a brand new piano too, despite the fact that people pretty much give these away when they get into a situation like above.  Oh look, it's the circle of life!

After finding out we cut cable my FIL made the comment "Got rid of cable. Why are you being so cheap? You need to live a little."

Somehow he considers sitting around watching cable living.

Come over here and sit down next to me on the couch.  Now this is living!  Ha!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Apples on February 06, 2015, 02:01:17 PM
My MIL bought a new Ford Escape two springs ago.  She thought the new body style was pretty, and really wanted a new car (her current car was somewhere around 5-10 years old, I don't know, but in great condition).  They don't have savings and they couldn't really afford the monthly payments.  She whined for a few months to everyone about wanting the car "but DH says we don't have enough money".  Rolled home in it one day, w/o discussing it w/ my FIL.  Traded in her old car.  Said FIL was lying and they could afford it.

Last year, they could barely cover the expense of going to our wedding plus the rehearsal dinner, though she was adamant they would take a 2 week vacation and that dinner be expensive.  They are stretched pretty tight to afford those car payments.  My MIL misses work for a variety of physical ailments, so my FIL works nearly 7 days a week picking up overtime so they can meet their bills. By the time I'm 30, I bet we'll have more in retirement accounts than they do.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: jprince7827 on February 06, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
My stepmom had a 2008 Audi A8L she bought back in 09 certified pre-owned for 70k - a beautiful car, the best I've ever had the privilege to drive. A couple months ago my Dad let her trade it in for 12k at 165k miles for a brand new 2014 Cadillac CTS fully loaded for 60k.

I can't believe it. That A8 was way better than the Caddy, and would've lasted another ten years - but she had to have the adaptive cruise control that the A8L just didn't have in 2008. That's literally the only reason she moved up. Spending an additional 50k just to get adaptive cruise control.

SMH.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: irishbear99 on February 06, 2015, 03:23:12 PM
That's literally the only reason she moved up. Spending an additional 50k just to get adaptive cruise control.

Congratulations. I think you just won this thread.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: RogueSqPewPew on February 06, 2015, 04:04:27 PM
My father. Due to a car wreck, he may come into a lot of money. It's been with the lawyers for a year and a half. He wants me and the SO to teach him how to invest and save money like we do.

After they buy a gigantic house (with pool of course!), new cars (a Honda Ridgeline being one, because he 'deserves it, and can't have what everyone else has!'), vacations, and other "necessities".

I sent him a few of my favorite MMM articles the other day ('clown car' and 'luxury is another weakness') to start showing him how we handle our money. He hasn't read them yet. He probably won't.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Silverwood on February 08, 2015, 10:54:01 PM
My grandparents or more specifically my grandfather and his vehicles.

My dad runs  his own business and my grandpa is constantly on him to replace his work truck so that others will know the business is doing well.

My parents also have an older paid off ford f-150. My dad does all the work on it himself or he gets his buddy to. I think they both help each other out with different things. My grandpa told my dad it was time to upgrade that old junker and criticized him for repairing it. The repairs cost $3000 and the truck wont need more work for at least a couple years.  My uncle purchases an older truck for $3000+  for fun to fix up and my grandpa congratulated him.

My grandparents are in their 70's and my grandpa has always had a nice vehicle. Never paying off and always trading up. They are snowbirds and have a place here and down south. I dont think either are paid off.  Their great-grandson was just born and I'm pretty sure they didn't come back because they couldn't afford it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: lakemom on February 09, 2015, 07:36:00 AM
I have a family member like this.  He makes a good income, has very little in the way of obligations (renter in a one-bedroom apartment), but spends so stupidly I want to smack him.

Right out of school, when he first got a job, he bought a Jeep (a TJ, at the time).  10 years later, he still has it, but he's put THOUSANDS of dollars into it getting it jacked up, getting fancy tires, installing neoprene seats, getting fancy covers, towing systems/winches, etc.  It was his only car and he found the gas really expensive.....because it's a beast.

I should add that he very, VERY rarely goes off-road with it, and lives in a large city.

So what does he do?  Not sell it and use the proceeds to buy a reliable, well-priced used car.

Nope.  He stores it in my garage.....and bought a Volkswagon Golf TDI.  New, of course.  Fully loaded, of course.  I think it was something like $38k (Canadian) after all the options and tax.  He buys this because it's "good on gas" and has now saddled himself with a car payment for YEARS on a car that is only marginally better on gas than a car he could have paid cash for, had he been willing to sell the stupid jeep.

He recently told me that he won't be taking the Jeep out this summer (again, too expensive) and it will just live in my garage.

It just drives me crazy....seriously, he probably could have sold the Jeep for 13-14 grand, bought a great used car and had no payments, and no stupid Jeep sitting in my garage.  I let him leave it there because I have lots of space (we have one small car and the garage easily holds eight....thank the previous owner of my home for building it, because I never would have).  But because he'll "never get back the money he put into the Jeep" he leaves it sitting idle (and losing value), and because it's "good on gas," he is spending a fortune paying for a brand new car.

I hope he's paying you some rent on that garage!  At our self storage facility a unit large enough for a jeep would run $77 per month.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on February 09, 2015, 07:52:11 AM
I still have no idea how you can spend ten grand per person in two weeks.


That's not hard to do at all, really.  Take a really nice cruise in a suite (especially somewhere exotic) or go on safari.  The Antarctica vacation I really really want to do runs about $18k per person for 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: johnny847 on February 09, 2015, 08:06:26 AM
One spendthift relative encouraged me to buy something expensive I didn't want or need just because I could afford it. Yeah, I can afford to buy expensive things... because I don't actually buy them.

I'd rather buy VTSAX instead.
Last Christmas:
Friend: Do you have any things on your list?
Me: List?
Friend: Yea things you want for Christmas.
Me: VTSAX
Friend: What's that?


But as for the actual thread topic...I actually haven't heard of any dumb financial moves from my family. Maybe they've made them, but I haven't heard of them. It's basically the opposite - my parents  could've bought his house in cash, but got a mortgage instead, got a US treasury bond with a yield slightly greater than his mortgage rate, and claimed the home mortgage interest deduction (without that tax deduction, that would probably have a losing proposition because the return of bond interest is reduced by taxes, whereas the "return" of paying down a debt is not unless you include the home mortgage interest tax deduction.)

My parents taught me virtually nothing about taxes and investing (I learned that on my own) but they are pretty frugal. Not Mustachian frugal, but more frugal than the average American. I'm glad they instilled this sense of frugality in me (which only got activated once I had to earn my own money haha. Back in college when they gave me an allowance, I hardly saved any of it even though I could have).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on February 09, 2015, 08:13:05 AM
Another relative *clearly hates himself and goes out of his way to maximize his own suffering*
I am not exaggerating when I say that it physically hurt me to read that clusterfuck of retardation. I want to punch MYSELF in the face now. *ungggghhh*
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on February 09, 2015, 08:26:09 AM
As you might imagine, not a single house was sold. 2-3 years in (I can't remember exactly), she had to take a dead-end entry-level service job at the age of 50.
Seriously?
I do it as a part-time job and turned a profit in my first partial year despite working 40 hours a week for the government and being out of town half the weekends. I can't imagine not spinning up rapidly once I actually have time to prospect.
I guess a lot of people get into the field thinking it's easy money and then realize you have to work to build a pipeline... it makes me sad. I genuinely enjoy it so much that I'm not going full-time until I reach the point where money is secondary.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Fodder on February 09, 2015, 11:28:08 AM
I have a family member like this.  He makes a good income, has very little in the way of obligations (renter in a one-bedroom apartment), but spends so stupidly I want to smack him.

Right out of school, when he first got a job, he bought a Jeep (a TJ, at the time).  10 years later, he still has it, but he's put THOUSANDS of dollars into it getting it jacked up, getting fancy tires, installing neoprene seats, getting fancy covers, towing systems/winches, etc.  It was his only car and he found the gas really expensive.....because it's a beast.

I should add that he very, VERY rarely goes off-road with it, and lives in a large city.

So what does he do?  Not sell it and use the proceeds to buy a reliable, well-priced used car.

Nope.  He stores it in my garage.....and bought a Volkswagon Golf TDI.  New, of course.  Fully loaded, of course.  I think it was something like $38k (Canadian) after all the options and tax.  He buys this because it's "good on gas" and has now saddled himself with a car payment for YEARS on a car that is only marginally better on gas than a car he could have paid cash for, had he been willing to sell the stupid jeep.

He recently told me that he won't be taking the Jeep out this summer (again, too expensive) and it will just live in my garage.

It just drives me crazy....seriously, he probably could have sold the Jeep for 13-14 grand, bought a great used car and had no payments, and no stupid Jeep sitting in my garage.  I let him leave it there because I have lots of space (we have one small car and the garage easily holds eight....thank the previous owner of my home for building it, because I never would have).  But because he'll "never get back the money he put into the Jeep" he leaves it sitting idle (and losing value), and because it's "good on gas," he is spending a fortune paying for a brand new car.

I hope he's paying you some rent on that garage!  At our self storage facility a unit large enough for a jeep would run $77 per month.

Nah, I couldn't do that to family.  If it were any sort of sacrifice, I would charge rent, but the garage is a 30x50 behemoth and I don't even notice the Jeep at the back.  He keeps fire and theft insurance on the jeep.

Mind you, my other brother just asked if he could keep the Cadillac he just bought from our grandmother's estate in our garage (1985 behemoth) and I said no to that because he would actually want to keep the car accessible, and that WOULD impede our use of the garage if we were constantly having to work around it.  ANd also it's the size of a bus.

We store a lot of stuff for people though - my SIL's winter tires and bikes, etc.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on February 09, 2015, 01:33:33 PM
My brother! My parents were poor, and frugal, and most of us grew up pretty darned frugal.  But not the baby of the family, nope.

Part of it was the economic outpatient care that my mom provided until he was in his 30's (that's when she died.  And he's too much of a coward to ask our stepfather).

So my brother has generally been underemployed because he wanted an easier life and he's kind of an introvert.  So he quit good paying jobs to get easier jobs.  He quit a job, went to truck driving school, didn't like the company that paid for the school so quit (had to pay them back).  Then he got a job driving truck at 30 hours a week for not much money.  But he was happy.

His wife was the major income, working retail.  She made good money.
But they both liked to spend money.  They went through a string of new/used cars over 5 years, one every 9-12 months.  At one point, pregnant with their second child, they traded in their sedan for a second pickup truck.  Of course they lost money on each transaction.
They also ate out a LOT.  And my SIL would drive 45 minutes each way to work. And on her days off, she'd go shopping, but drive 2 hours one way.

But hey, she was the major income.

Anyway, last year she moved out of retail, so awesomely gets a normal schedule.  My brother was working 4 am to 11 am every day.  HE is so excited to get a new job at a prison (night shift).  What is the one thing he said to me at Christmas on the phone?  Well, FINALLY I know I can retire.  I can retire at 58 because my Army time will count towards the pension.  Because you know everyone here lives paycheck to paycheck.  You just don't understand.

(What I understand is that his mortgage payment was $375 a month and he and his wife made about $90k per year.  This was not an earning problem, it was a spending problem.)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: be on February 12, 2015, 02:00:28 PM
One relative with a low income and a lot of debt bought a piano. Then he didn't have enough money to pay for rent, so he and his family moved in with her parents and put the piano in storage. So the piano (bought on credit) is sitting in storage (costing money to store) where it is unused. And he obviously couldn't afford the piano in the first place.

Ouch!  Wow, that's ridiculous.  I imagine it was a brand new piano too, despite the fact that people pretty much give these away when they get into a situation like above.  Oh look, it's the circle of life!

Talk about people pretty much giving pianos away, it reminds me of my dad who has been offered the option to buy 2 different pianos from people who didn't want to move it.  Sort of a, you take it off our hands, you can have it. He just politely told them no thank you -- he doesn't play the piano!  I will say, I did take piano lessons as a child and my parents bought that piano 2nd hand and had it delivered to their house in the same moving truck that delivered my uncle's new to him bed.  So actually my father has been offered at least 4 pianos.  2 of which he actually bought, and 2 he said no thank you to.  My parent's 2nd piano was also 2nd hand.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: paddedhat on February 14, 2015, 07:16:38 AM
My stepmom had a 2008 Audi A8L she bought back in 09 certified pre-owned for 70k - a beautiful car, the best I've ever had the privilege to drive. A couple months ago my Dad let her trade it in for 12k at 165k miles for a brand new 2014 Cadillac CTS fully loaded for 60k.

I can't believe it. That A8 was way better than the Caddy, and would've lasted another ten years - but she had to have the adaptive cruise control that the A8L just didn't have in 2008. That's literally the only reason she moved up. Spending an additional 50k just to get adaptive cruise control.

SMH.
Well here is where I would politely disagree. Yes, it is possible to keep any car on the road for another ten years, and another 150K miles. However, doing so in a newer, extremely complex, yet not particularly reliable luxury performance car like an Audi, BMW or Mercedes, would typically be extremely painful on the wallet. We have friends that do this stupid shit. They spend $20K ish each, on a pair of Mercedes products, a big sedan and an SUV. This is all in borrowed money, of course, since you don't want to do something stupid AND pay cash for it. Not to even pretend that these idiots have that kind of money. Anyhow, they have a need to look wealthy, so the two cars are big, expensive when new ($75+ range) and well beyond warranty when they buy them. The next four years involve both high payments, AND extremely insane repair bills. One was over $3K when the sedan's auto leveling failed, and the car was stilling on the road one morning. It got a rollback ride, eighty miles to the dealer that day.  Eventually they pay the principal down enough, and the repair bills get ugly enough, that they start the whole process again.

 If you doubt that this is the typical outcome for owners of older, high end Eurotrash cars, stop by the dealer. The first thing you will see is that the employee parking lot has a notable absence of older expensive German cars, which is odd, since there are dozens of mechanics inside than can get parts cheap, and fix them for free. Unfortunately, they know better than to get involved in that mess. Next, talk to a salesperson about the type of folks that can actually afford a new, high end six figure car. One interesting point is that most of them will only drive cars that are under warranty, and are careful to trade in before they have to pay to fix the things.

I certainly agree that dropping $60K on a new Caddy was idiotic, particularly since they have a well documented reputation for being one of the least reliable cars on the road, if you want to drive the wheels off it, and keep for 10-15 yrs. However, that Audi is a ticking bomb, and the dealer did a courtesy trade on it. He determined what it was worth at auction ( about $5-7K) and gave that much for it. The rest of the $12K "trade-in" was a numbers game. Chances are, the Audi got rolled around back, and waited for the next carrier heading for the auction.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: paddedhat on February 14, 2015, 07:46:30 AM
As you might imagine, not a single house was sold. 2-3 years in (I can't remember exactly), she had to take a dead-end entry-level service job at the age of 50.
Seriously?
I do it as a part-time job and turned a profit in my first partial year despite working 40 hours a week for the government and being out of town half the weekends. I can't imagine not spinning up rapidly once I actually have time to prospect.
I guess a lot of people get into the field thinking it's easy money and then realize you have to work to build a pipeline... it makes me sad. I genuinely enjoy it so much that I'm not going full-time until I reach the point where money is secondary.
 

Sounds like you will do very well. I'm not sure if you are too polite to mention it, or if you are in a rare environment, agency wise, where it's not an issue, but successful realtors often do well since they have a traits that about 80% of their competitors lack. They are reliable, hardworking and competent.

 I was a builder, and investor for thirty years. I was perpetually stunned by the percentage of agents that were just total screw-ups. It was common to have my agent, settlement agent or lawyer go way out of their way to do, redo, or repair work that the other parties agent either failed to do, or screwed up.  Nothing like trying to close a deal when the other party accidentally got stuck with an agent who should still be working the checkout at Dollar general. One of my agents got so sick of it, that she would give one warning, then file a formal complaint with the licensing board, if the problem didn't get resolved. She pissed a lot of people off, but her attitude was that it was the only way to improve the situation. I was also stunned by the number of brokers who had zero issues with keeping F-ups and total non-producers on the roster. Or having to call brokers and ask them to step in and get their employee to actually do the job that they are legally required to do, and were getting paid to do.

OTOH, a competent agent is gold.  I was very loyal and grateful to the few who worked their asses off for me, and remained very loyal to them. Not surprisingly, a lot of these folks became very successful and wealthy over they years. Good luck.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sibley on February 16, 2015, 02:06:15 PM
 

Sounds like you will do very well. I'm not sure if you are too polite to mention it, or if you are in a rare environment, agency wise, where it's not an issue, but successful realtors often do well since they have a traits that about 80% of their competitors lack. They are reliable, hardworking and competent.

[/quote]

I have heard so many horror stories about real estate agents. I'm a professional, I'm accustomed to competency. I really don't handle idiots well.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mbk on February 16, 2015, 02:56:50 PM
This post is about my neighbors whose income is much less than ours. Recently they bought a brand new second car. After noticing it, my wife & I hypothesized it as a bad move and forgot about it. Yesterday they volunteered few details about their financial situation and it blew me away.

They are from India and they are paying 24-48% APR on different loans in India with the total outstanding balance at $70k USD.

Their income is $3k/month after all deductions. It used to be higher, however they are expecting a baby in summer and now are on single income. Out of it, $1k goes towards car monthly payments, insurance and gas. $600 goes towards their share of rent. Here they are being sensible and co-renting with another couple. Paying only interest on the loans outstanding in India takes away another $1k. They have an ipad, iphone 6s and samsung galaxy s5.

And they were lamenting on not being able to buy house in bay area. I advised them to sell at least one car and any assets in India. They were somewhat receptive to the idea. But their main hope is on the second income after the delivery of baby.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mbk on February 24, 2015, 09:42:41 AM
Another interesting thing happened with the family mentioned in the above post. I told them that I would help them in filing taxes so they could save $200. So, we sat down yesterday evening to file their taxes. After tallying every thing, I found that they owed IRS $1k+. When I told them that, they started throwing tantrums. They started blaming government for collecting too much tax, their employers for not withholding taxes, again government for collecting social security and medicare taxes and etc. Funny/irritating thing is that the lady has low-income medicaid insurance. They came with an expectation that they would get a refund around $2k. They kept wondering why they had to pay when everyone else was getting a refund. Seeing their tantrums, I didn't bother explaining them its actually good to not get a refund. They would have definitely thought of me as a jerk. The husband was lamenting that he wanted to buy his wife a $2k gift. And I kept my mouth shut for more than an hour and just listened to them. Finally they decided to file their taxes somewhere else. Today morning my wife mentions that the lady had already bought jewelry worth $1600 anticipating tax refund.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: johnny847 on February 24, 2015, 09:55:15 AM
Today morning my wife mentions that the lady had already bought jewelry worth $1600 anticipating tax refund.
But...I thought they owed the IRS $1k+?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: eostache on February 24, 2015, 10:06:02 AM
Another interesting thing happened with the family mentioned in the above post. I told them that I would help them in filing taxes so they could save $200. So, we sat down yesterday evening to file their taxes. After tallying every thing, I found that they owed IRS $1k+. When I told them that, they started throwing tantrums. They started blaming government for collecting too much tax, their employers for not withholding taxes, again government for collecting social security and medicare taxes and etc. Funny/irritating thing is that the lady has low-income medicaid insurance. They came with an expectation that they would get a refund around $2k. They kept wondering why they had to pay when everyone else was getting a refund. Seeing their tantrums, I didn't bother explaining them its actually good to not get a refund. They would have definitely thought of me as a jerk. The husband was lamenting that he wanted to buy his wife a $2k gift. And I kept my mouth shut for more than an hour and just listened to them. Finally they decided to file their taxes somewhere else. Today morning my wife mentions that the lady had already bought jewelry worth $1600 anticipating tax refund.

This made my head hurt.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mbk on February 24, 2015, 10:13:03 AM
Today morning my wife mentions that the lady had already bought jewelry worth $1600 anticipating tax refund.
But...I thought they owed the IRS $1k+?
They didn't know that till yesterday evening. The lady bought the jewelry few days ago. Yesterday, I definitely ruined their evening.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: johnny847 on February 24, 2015, 10:24:23 AM
Today morning my wife mentions that the lady had already bought jewelry worth $1600 anticipating tax refund.
But...I thought they owed the IRS $1k+?
They didn't know that till yesterday evening. The lady bought the jewelry few days ago. Yesterday, I definitely ruined their evening.
Oh /facepalm. I missed the word "already."

Counting their chickens before they hatch.....
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on February 24, 2015, 10:26:53 AM
One relative with a low income and a lot of debt bought a piano. Then he didn't have enough money to pay for rent, so he and his family moved in with her parents and put the piano in storage. So the piano (bought on credit) is sitting in storage (costing money to store) where it is unused. And he obviously couldn't afford the piano in the first place.

I've heard that it is can be easy to find a decent piano on craig's list for free or cheap so long as you can arrange to have it moved. Of course, if you buy a really nice grand piano, those might cost a pretty penny.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AH013 on February 24, 2015, 10:35:54 AM
Today morning my wife mentions that the lady had already bought jewelry worth $1600 anticipating tax refund.
But...I thought they owed the IRS $1k+?

No, you misunderstand.  When mbk prepared their taxes he said they owe the IRS $1k.  They're taking their taxes to an "expert" who will get them the $2k refund (plus their $300 fee) they deserve instead so they can afford that jewelry.  That jewelry will look pretty when she wears it with an orange jumpsuit. ROFL!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on February 24, 2015, 01:40:05 PM
No, you misunderstand.  When mbk prepared their taxes he said they owe the IRS $1k.  They're taking their taxes to an "expert" who will get them the $2k refund (plus their $300 fee) they deserve instead so they can afford that jewelry.  That jewelry will look pretty when she wears it with an orange jumpsuit. ROFL!
Ha! I've heard anecdotally of paid preparers fabricating itemized deductions, etc, to improve tax return results. I lost at least one client during my one year of paid tax prep to such an outfit.
Quite foolish to take such risks, if you ask me, for such small rewards, and as a taxpayer I don't appreciate it. The rest of us end up paying for that shit.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Paul der Krake on February 24, 2015, 01:50:14 PM
No, you misunderstand.  When mbk prepared their taxes he said they owe the IRS $1k.  They're taking their taxes to an "expert" who will get them the $2k refund (plus their $300 fee) they deserve instead so they can afford that jewelry.  That jewelry will look pretty when she wears it with an orange jumpsuit. ROFL!
Ha! I've heard anecdotally of paid preparers fabricating itemized deductions, etc, to improve tax return results. I lost at least one client during my one year of paid tax prep to such an outfit.
Quite foolish to take such risks, if you ask me, for such small rewards, and as a taxpayer I don't appreciate it. The rest of us end up paying for that shit.
Around here there are "places" that advertise refunds that are well over what a normal minimum wage earner with 2 kids would get back with a standard return and the EITC. I say "places" because it's really just a sleazy sign on the side of the road with dollar sign$ and a phone number. I can only assume they are scamming both the IRS and the taxpayer and disapear pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: infogoon on February 27, 2015, 02:48:52 PM
Around here there are "places" that advertise refunds that are well over what a normal minimum wage earner with 2 kids would get back with a standard return and the EITC. I say "places" because it's really just a sleazy sign on the side of the road with dollar sign$ and a phone number. I can only assume they are scamming both the IRS and the taxpayer and disapear pretty quickly.

I know my guy's legit, because he's got a vagrant in a Statue Of Liberty costume out front waggling a cardboard arrow and yelling at traffic.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: kib on February 27, 2015, 04:49:38 PM
"I have heard so many horror stories about real estate agents. I'm a professional, I'm accustomed to competency. I really don't handle idiots well."


 I feel that way about life in general.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: RunHappy on February 27, 2015, 04:55:56 PM
How about the one who keeping buying expensive pedigree dogs ($3k-$5k) but is constantly having the electricity turned off for nonpayment. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: wordnerd on March 02, 2015, 07:03:44 PM
On his first day of retirement, my dad (age 72) spent $2300 today on getting the trees trimmed on 1/3 of an acre lot around the house.

My parents, by the way, have been making six-figures for the past 25+ years, but complain that they can't afford to retire and then buy $275 bottles of champagne at dinner. My mom is still working (six figure salary), and my dad is looking for part-time work in retirement so they can waste more money.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Gerard on March 02, 2015, 08:24:26 PM
My friend and her siblings each recently inherited a decent chunk of money from a relative. Within a week, *both* siblings had asked my friend for a loan/gift of some/all of her share, because she "doesn't need it". Both siblings earn considerably more than my friend.

I have to admit, on this one, I find it easier to find the shame than the comedy.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: EdwardMonroe on March 02, 2015, 08:29:19 PM
My parents, by the way, have been making six-figures for the past 25+ years, but complain that they can't afford to retire and then buy $275 bottles of champagne at dinner. My mom is still working (six figure salary), and my dad is looking for part-time work in retirement so they can waste more money.

While reading it, I forgot that your dad is 72 y.o. I thought it was me you're pertaining! You tale was indeed spot on to my life!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tmoney on March 02, 2015, 11:17:40 PM
My BIL tells us how he looking to buy an $80k 5th wheel trailer ( for 2 people!) for camping but will also need a new truck.... They have never been camping in a trailer or tent and we have invited them dozens of times.   Same ones who had to borrow money for a medical co-pay
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mbl on March 05, 2015, 09:55:19 AM
I still have no idea how you can spend ten grand per person in two weeks.


That's not hard to do at all, really.  Take a really nice cruise in a suite (especially somewhere exotic) or go on safari.  The Antarctica vacation I really really want to do runs about $18k per person for 2 weeks.

I'm guessing that yes, that kind of trip was very extravagant....but the family memories will probably last a lifetime.
Sometimes you gotta say  WTH....go for it.    I could think of worse things in life.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Le0 on March 05, 2015, 10:46:54 AM
My parents live about 10 mins from a university. My mother works at the university, and my brother gets free tuition.

My brother goes to this university.

My brother also works about 10 mins from my parents house - sweet deal he can basically go in when he has time and make good money.

Here is the crazy part. My brother lived for about 2 school years in an apartment with a bunch of other guys about 10 mins on the other side of the university. Paying for everything - house, food etc. This means that pretty much his entire income from his job was spent on his bills. 

He has finally "run out of money" and moved back in with my parents. I can only imagine how rich he would be if he had just stayed home, did school and worked. Honestly he could have a down payment for a house by now.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: druth on March 05, 2015, 11:07:38 AM
My future inlaws...

They lost more than 100k to a ponzi scheme many years ago (before I knew them), the leader said he had 'good christian values' so they trusted him.  Now they are involved in a pyramid scheme(life leadership), which couldn't possibly be a scam because it has 'good christian values.  They refuse to see any similarity.  Their kids have all tried to talk them out of this but they refuse to listen.

Recently their business went bankrupt and for whatever reason it wasn't tax shielded, so now they are going bankrupt as well.  Because they have really bad credit history they couldn't get a car loan, so they LEASED a brand new Ford Fusion.  Never mind that they had working cars and could have bought a nicer one with a few months of their lease payments.  They changed their minds and decided they wanted the equity instead so they gave it back(presumably taking whatever penalities as well), and buying a used 2014 Lincoln for 20k! (I can only imagine the terms of this loan...). 

From my understanding this could either completely derail their bankruptcy at worst, get taken back if the court thinks it isn't a reasonable expense, or maybe worst of all, they could agree to keep paying the payments even after they get out of bankruptcy.

I'm scared shitless of having to fund them when they are older.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sibley on March 05, 2015, 11:59:11 AM
My future inlaws...

They lost more than 100k to a ponzi scheme many years ago (before I knew them), the leader said he had 'good christian values' so they trusted him.  Now they are involved in a pyramid scheme(life leadership), which couldn't possibly be a scam because it has 'good christian values.  They refuse to see any similarity.  Their kids have all tried to talk them out of this but they refuse to listen.

Recently their business went bankrupt and for whatever reason it wasn't tax shielded, so now they are going bankrupt as well.  Because they have really bad credit history they couldn't get a car loan, so they LEASED a brand new Ford Fusion.  Never mind that they had working cars and could have bought a nicer one with a few months of their lease payments.  They changed their minds and decided they wanted the equity instead so they gave it back(presumably taking whatever penalities as well), and buying a used 2014 Lincoln for 20k! (I can only imagine the terms of this loan...). 

From my understanding this could either completely derail their bankruptcy at worst, get taken back if the court thinks it isn't a reasonable expense, or maybe worst of all, they could agree to keep paying the payments even after they get out of bankruptcy.

I'm scared shitless of having to fund them when they are older.

Decide what the bare minimum life would be (shelter, food, clothing, etc). If they need help with that beyond whatever assistance they can get from the government, you can help if you're able. Beyond that, plead poor.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on March 05, 2015, 12:15:23 PM
That's literally the only reason she moved up. Spending an additional 50k just to get adaptive cruise control.

Congratulations. I think you just won this thread.

you know what's better?

$50,000 worth of uber rides.  you dont even have to drive!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rockstache on March 05, 2015, 01:02:10 PM
My future inlaws...

They lost more than 100k to a ponzi scheme many years ago (before I knew them), the leader said he had 'good christian values' so they trusted him.  Now they are involved in a pyramid scheme(life leadership), which couldn't possibly be a scam because it has 'good christian values.  They refuse to see any similarity.  Their kids have all tried to talk them out of this but they refuse to listen.

Recently their business went bankrupt and for whatever reason it wasn't tax shielded, so now they are going bankrupt as well.  Because they have really bad credit history they couldn't get a car loan, so they LEASED a brand new Ford Fusion.  Never mind that they had working cars and could have bought a nicer one with a few months of their lease payments.  They changed their minds and decided they wanted the equity instead so they gave it back(presumably taking whatever penalities as well), and buying a used 2014 Lincoln for 20k! (I can only imagine the terms of this loan...). 

From my understanding this could either completely derail their bankruptcy at worst, get taken back if the court thinks it isn't a reasonable expense, or maybe worst of all, they could agree to keep paying the payments even after they get out of bankruptcy.

I'm scared shitless of having to fund them when they are older.

Decide what the bare minimum life would be (shelter, food, clothing, etc). If they need help with that beyond whatever assistance they can get from the government, you can help if you're able. Beyond that, plead poor.

+1 And make sure you discuss it with future wife and agree pre-marriage.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on March 05, 2015, 01:32:21 PM
My BIL tells us how he looking to buy an $80k 5th wheel trailer ( for 2 people!) for camping but will also need a new truck.... They have never been camping in a trailer or tent and we have invited them dozens of times.   Same ones who had to borrow money for a medical co-pay
Campers are one of those things that I drool over.  I would love to have a small one that you tow, like a teardrop.  But in order to get a teardrop that is big enough for 4, it will weigh a lot.  And my Matrix won't tow it.  So then we'd need a bigger car to tow it.

I've thought about renting an RV for fun.  They cost approximately $100 a night, maybe a little more, so...why not just stay in a hotel then?
I've almost rented a camper van for fun.  These can be rented for a lot cheaper.  But...the one time I wanted to do it, they would have been closed on the day I needed to return the van.

So...we tent camp.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on March 05, 2015, 03:13:24 PM
we bought a older used motorhome that had very few miles so it was not expensive. Many people buy them & don't use them much including us.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on March 05, 2015, 04:24:59 PM
We'll probably get a decent 5th wheel trailer at some point (and if I have anything to say about it, one that needs a lot of work, which I will happily dive into).  We can tow it, no problems.  My wife & I intend to do a lot of travel with our kids, especially for home schooling, so a trailer makes more sense than hotels if we're spending a month traveling the east coast or the south or such.

My wife's parents (who are amazingly frugal) do have a motor home, but they spend about 2 months of the year traveling the country (they skip out on Idaho in January and go to Arizona, then usually spend another few weeks a year various places in it) - and I think my FIL might stay in it when he's out drilling wells further away so he doesn't have to drive back every night.  I know he's got a trailer house he sticks on site for more distant jobs.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on March 05, 2015, 04:34:27 PM
WE have not used ours much but now that we have inherited my son's 80lb dog it is too hard to stay in motels since we also have 3 small dogs.  For the first time we plan to travel for a month in May.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on March 05, 2015, 05:50:37 PM
I've got ferrets. Same issue. :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tmoney on March 05, 2015, 07:55:23 PM
I just thought it was crazy to probably in total spend 130k (trailer and truck) on something you have never done before and claim you have no time for. We have a trailer but we rented one a few times before spending on it and you can pick up some nice used ones from people who bought and never used.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mozar on March 09, 2015, 06:29:58 PM
OK, so I have told my mother and her brothers that I identify as "frugal". Basically as a way to talk about mustachianism without telling them about the early retirement part. My "frugal group" is my beard for mustachianism! Anyways, my aunt in law was bragging to me that her daughter (my cousin) is frugal because her winter coat is 10 years old...my cousin just bought a huge co-op in NYC for $700k. And is spending 30k on a wedding in August. That's really not getting it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on March 10, 2015, 07:53:34 AM
Retirement-aged relatives have a retirement account at a major investment bank, being charged 1% fees. They are big fans of spending money. So I showed them how they could spend MORE money if they just switched to Vanguard. The difference in fees would increase their SWR by 25%. Who doesn't want a 25% raise, right? They agreed my logic was "indisputable".

Later they paid a salesman, er, I mean financial adviser. He talked them into moving their money to the major investment bank he was affiliated with, and putting it into "active management" so they they could "smooth out the downturns if there's another 2008 crash". Yeah, because you know how they can go back and put some extra money in your account after the market crashes, right? Extra stupid because the Vanguard Target Retirement Income Fund is 70% bonds anyway. So they respond favorably to his sales pitch, I mean expert advice, because "he spoke clearly and never stuttered". The fees at this new arrangement will be at least 2%. So instead of a 25% raise, they are giving themselves a 25% paycut.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ash7962 on March 10, 2015, 10:52:07 AM
My parents live about 10 mins from a university. My mother works at the university, and my brother gets free tuition.

My brother goes to this university.

My brother also works about 10 mins from my parents house - sweet deal he can basically go in when he has time and make good money.

Here is the crazy part. My brother lived for about 2 school years in an apartment with a bunch of other guys about 10 mins on the other side of the university. Paying for everything - house, food etc. This means that pretty much his entire income from his job was spent on his bills. 

He has finally "run out of money" and moved back in with my parents. I can only imagine how rich he would be if he had just stayed home, did school and worked. Honestly he could have a down payment for a house by now.

I can understand this.  He's young and still has a lot of time to make money and retire early.  PLUS the fact that he got free tuition is already a huge deal.  If I were in his shoes I wouldn't want to live with mom and dad either.  I don't know if your parents are anything like mine, but my parents would probably have been not ok with about 70-80% of what I did at college :).  There are few decisions I made in college that I would change, so I'm pretty sure living apart from them would have happened even if they were 10 min from my college campus.  You could say that living apart from my parents in college was both for me and my parents.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on March 10, 2015, 08:40:51 PM
^I agree that living apart from your parents in college at least for a year or two is fine and in many cases a necessary part of really becoming an independent adult.

Quote
Wasting money is kind of a badge of honor for them. They buy all kinds of things they never use, spend more on eating out in a week than we do for all our food for a month, throw away leftovers, upgrade appliances they don't use, etc.

My ex-MIL was like this.  She loved to accumulate stuff she never even took the tags off of, and then she'd showcase those items like they were some sort of valuable artwork.  We helped her clean out her house for a move and it was surreal.  She was also really into purposely cooking (or ordering) way too much and wasting large quantities of food, which bothered me a lot.  Throwing a whole uneaten animal carcass in the trash =/= cool.  Her money train has died (highly disabled vet on a tax free govt disability payment whom she met when she worked in a VA hospital), so not sure if she is still able to keep up her ridiculous, intentionally money-wasting pace anymore.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on March 11, 2015, 06:44:59 AM
Trying to explain the reason behind our house purchase budget to MIL. She keeps arguing "spend more to buy a bigger house" (that I don't need or want) "and you can always sell and buy smaller if you lose your job." Background: I'm a contractor whose job depends solely on one person. The job stability beyond this current project, which may last anywhere from 6-9 years, is uncertain. Thus, we're budgeting to be able to afford a house on one income. SMH.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on March 11, 2015, 11:26:08 AM
Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on March 11, 2015, 11:27:55 AM
Trying to explain the reason behind our house purchase budget to MIL. She keeps arguing "spend more to buy a bigger house" (that I don't need or want) "and you can always sell and buy smaller if you lose your job." Background: I'm a contractor whose job depends solely on one person. The job stability beyond this current project, which may last anywhere from 6-9 years, is uncertain. Thus, we're budgeting to be able to afford a house on one income. SMH.

You can't "sell whenever you want" ... housing bubble is the proof. Tell her she's not getting a MIL suite. Tough shit.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: johnny847 on March 11, 2015, 01:03:30 PM
Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

I think the simplest way to try to explain this is saying that the tax deduction is like a coupon, with the coupon rate being equal to their marginal tax rate.

But oftentimes when taxes are involved, you're just trying to use logic on someone who refuses to accept it, so it usually falls flat on its face.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on March 11, 2015, 01:08:02 PM
"Coupon" - that's what you use to save money at the store, right?  And I'm sure a "coupon rate" is how many of them show up in your mail every week.

"Marginal tax rate" - that's how much tax you pay on margarine, right?  Or maybe maybe it's how much taxes you pay if you're getting really creative with deductions of marginal quality.

:p

Most people don't know what those words mean in that context.  The type of person saying "Yeah, but you can save money with a larger mortgage because you can deduct your interest!" almost certainly doesn't.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: johnny847 on March 11, 2015, 01:27:17 PM
"Coupon" - that's what you use to save money at the store, right?  And I'm sure a "coupon rate" is how many of them show up in your mail every week.

"Marginal tax rate" - that's how much tax you pay on margarine, right?  Or maybe maybe it's how much taxes you pay if you're getting really creative with deductions of marginal quality.

:p

Most people don't know what those words mean in that context.  The type of person saying "Yeah, but you can save money with a larger mortgage because you can deduct your interest!" almost certainly doesn't.

I know. I have successfully used this analogy when trying to teach people who have just started learning about taxes and investing. But like I said, it doesn't work for people who just don't care to accept or think critically about what you're trying to say.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on March 12, 2015, 07:45:25 AM
Trying to explain the reason behind our house purchase budget to MIL. She keeps arguing "spend more to buy a bigger house" (that I don't need or want) "and you can always sell and buy smaller if you lose your job." Background: I'm a contractor whose job depends solely on one person. The job stability beyond this current project, which may last anywhere from 6-9 years, is uncertain. Thus, we're budgeting to be able to afford a house on one income. SMH.

You can't "sell whenever you want" ... housing bubble is the proof. Tell her she's not getting a MIL suite. Tough shit.

I've decided it's better to drop the subject altogether. She's what I call a 'rabbit hole' arguer. I can never win, so it's not even worth getting into a debate. Usually I catch myself before I follow her down the rabbit hole. I didn't catch myself that time. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: WranglerBowman on March 18, 2015, 02:43:47 PM
I'm so tired of both sides of my family (in-laws, blood relatives) making fun of me for; heating my house with wood, turning off lights/electronics when they're not being used, turning the hot water heater temp down, growing my own fruit and vegetables, canning, hunting and butchering my own meat, flipping items on craigslist and doubleing my money almost every time, fixing our own vehicles, driving a 20 yr old station wagon, cutting my hair every 3 months, throwing food scraps in the woods for critters (circle of life...enter Lion King music), composting, keeping the AC at 78, not going out to dinner, etc etc etc...  At the same time the in-laws don't appear very happy that they're daughter married the person described above, because I don't treat her like a princess and blow money on her...she was aware of my frugality since day 1 and she stayed with me...shove it!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: PencilThinStash on March 19, 2015, 09:57:38 AM
I'm so tired of both sides of my family (in-laws, blood relatives) making fun of me for; heating my house with wood, turning off lights/electronics when they're not being used, turning the hot water heater temp down, growing my own fruit and vegetables, canning, hunting and butchering my own meat, flipping items on craigslist and doubleing my money almost every time, fixing our own vehicles, driving a 20 yr old station wagon, cutting my hair every 3 months, throwing food scraps in the woods for critters (circle of life...enter Lion King music), composting, keeping the AC at 78, not going out to dinner, etc etc etc...  At the same time the in-laws don't appear very happy that they're daughter married the person described above, because I don't treat her like a princess and blow money on her...she was aware of my frugality since day 1 and she stayed with me...shove it!

Aside from the annoying family judgement, you just described my dream life. Congratulations, man, keep it up!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on March 19, 2015, 10:24:43 AM
Trying to explain the reason behind our house purchase budget to MIL. She keeps arguing "spend more to buy a bigger house" (that I don't need or want) "and you can always sell and buy smaller if you lose your job." Background: I'm a contractor whose job depends solely on one person. The job stability beyond this current project, which may last anywhere from 6-9 years, is uncertain. Thus, we're budgeting to be able to afford a house on one income. SMH.

6-9 years of job stability is quite nice.

But it makes zero sense to buy a house thinking you could sell it if you lose your job!  To think about how to keep it without the job makes it so much better.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on March 19, 2015, 10:36:43 AM
But it makes zero sense to buy a house thinking you could sell it if you lose your job!  To think about how to keep it without the job makes it so much better.
Yep. When I bought (and moved into) my second home in my current town, part of the math was making sure it could be rented for at least break-even in the event of a nasty employment surprise or unexpected relocation. With the current one, having married since then, it was knowing that either one of us could make the payment on our own, giving us full redundancy.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on March 19, 2015, 01:27:53 PM

6-9 years of job stability is quite nice.

Agreed. One of the reasons I made the move to this job from my previous contracting job was the longevity of the project. My previous projects had 2 year funding cycles. Which, as you can imagine makes planning a bit more difficult!

But it makes zero sense to buy a house thinking you could sell it if you lose your job!  To think about how to keep it without the job makes it so much better.

Yep. Hence the contribution to the thread. No amount of explanation will get through to her. :-/
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on March 27, 2015, 11:45:01 AM
Trying to explain the reason behind our house purchase budget to MIL. She keeps arguing "spend more to buy a bigger house" (that I don't need or want) "and you can always sell and buy smaller if you lose your job." Background: I'm a contractor whose job depends solely on one person. The job stability beyond this current project, which may last anywhere from 6-9 years, is uncertain. Thus, we're budgeting to be able to afford a house on one income. SMH.

You can't "sell whenever you want" ... housing bubble is the proof. Tell her she's not getting a MIL suite. Tough shit.

Yeah, no housing bubbles and no increased realtor fees when you do go to sell.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on March 27, 2015, 11:45:40 AM
Relative: "It doesn't matter how much I spend on a plane ticket because I don't travel that often."
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on March 27, 2015, 11:48:33 AM
One relative wants to put his entire retirement account into a single stock because of rumors on the Internet that it was going to be bought out by another company. The stock had been trading flat for about 5 years but has gone up 700% in the past few months, already pricing in the possibility of the rumored purchase. Which means that if the purchase doesn't happen, the stock will probably drop most or all of those gains.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on March 27, 2015, 11:52:45 AM
OK, so I have told my mother and her brothers that I identify as "frugal". Basically as a way to talk about mustachianism without telling them about the early retirement part. My "frugal group" is my beard for mustachianism! Anyways, my aunt in law was bragging to me that her daughter (my cousin) is frugal because her winter coat is 10 years old...my cousin just bought a huge co-op in NYC for $700k. And is spending 30k on a wedding in August. That's really not getting it.
I don't know - a co-op in NYC might be a good purchase?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: slugline on March 27, 2015, 12:38:03 PM
Relative: "It doesn't matter how much I spend on a plane ticket because I don't travel that often."

Possibly true, depending on what "spend" and "often" means. I haven't boarded an airplane in a decade. Nothing would be substantially different in my life now if the cost of that ticket was doubled. :) Habitual behavior is really what kills finances, IMO.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on March 27, 2015, 12:43:57 PM
Huh. I guess I'm lucky, pretty much all of my relatives (on my side of the family anyways) get it. Even the one who is arguably the most materialistic (ignoring the Dr. that probably has a $10MIL net worth) said when I was talking about my first job, "Of course it doesn't matter how much you're making, it matters how much you're SAVING". This man has 2 jet ski's, 2 houses, 2 brand new kitchens, eats out a lot... But he gets the idea behind it, even if he isn't Mustachian himself (I'm really not either, but I like to save like I am).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: taekvideo on March 27, 2015, 02:10:27 PM
One relative with a low income and a lot of debt bought a piano. Then he didn't have enough money to pay for rent, so he and his family moved in with her parents and put the piano in storage. So the piano (bought on credit) is sitting in storage (costing money to store) where it is unused. And he obviously couldn't afford the piano in the first place.

that's messed up... especially since there are free pianos on craigslist all the time
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rocketpj on March 28, 2015, 09:03:38 PM
I have a relative who is basically a tycoon, at great cost to his health.  Their kids, both in the vicinity of 30, will not leave the nest.  One of them has been taking ONE course per semester at college for the last decade and then takes the summers off 'as a break'.  His only job has been working for papa, who wants to retire but can't 'until the kids are settled'.

They have 3 homes in 3 cities.  Both of the kids have newer, bigger cars than mine, live in the (absurdly big) house or at one or the other spare homes.

The provider of this wealth is actually a really nice guy who has worked insanely hard for 40 years, and I do not begrudge him his wealth.  But the kids did not learn any valuable lessons about anything (dad was at work all the time and mom's a soft touch), and if/when he dies they will blow through the fortune within a year or two and find themselves in a trailer park with no worthwhile skills.  Its a goddamn tragedy.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: 11ducks on March 28, 2015, 10:56:34 PM

I don't know if your parents are anything like mine, but my parents would probably have been not ok with about 70-80% of what I did at college :).  ......  You could say that living apart from my parents in college was both for me and my parents.

So very true.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on March 29, 2015, 08:10:15 AM
I have a relative who is basically a tycoon, at great cost to his health.  Their kids, both in the vicinity of 30, will not leave the nest.  One of them has been taking ONE course per semester at college for the last decade and then takes the summers off 'as a break'.  His only job has been working for papa, who wants to retire but can't 'until the kids are settled'.

They have 3 homes in 3 cities.  Both of the kids have newer, bigger cars than mine, live in the (absurdly big) house or at one or the other spare homes.

The provider of this wealth is actually a really nice guy who has worked insanely hard for 40 years, and I do not begrudge him his wealth.  But the kids did not learn any valuable lessons about anything (dad was at work all the time and mom's a soft touch), and if/when he dies they will blow through the fortune within a year or two and find themselves in a trailer park with no worthwhile skills.  Its a goddamn tragedy.
Not as bad, but years ago my husband worked for a small privately owned (by one guy with a silver spoon) company.  Hubs traveled on business with the boss and boss's (also very rich) girlfriend.

At dinner one night, the girlfriend (in her 60's) asked hubs: "Well, I just bought my daughter a car.  At what age do they leave the nest?"
Hubs: "How old is she?"
BossGF: "38"
Hubs: "Ha!  I'm 36, she's long past the age"
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rocketpj on March 29, 2015, 09:38:14 PM
A relative's son was turning 18 (drinking age in Alberta, age of majority).  He asked my dad 'what did you do with your son when he reached adulthood'.  My dad, quite reasonably, said 'took him out for a beer'.

Relative instead chose to take his kid golfing in Hawaii for a week to celebrate his adulthood. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on March 30, 2015, 05:29:42 PM
Relative: "It doesn't matter how much I spend on a plane ticket because I don't travel that often."

Possibly true, depending on what "spend" and "often" means. I haven't boarded an airplane in a decade. Nothing would be substantially different in my life now if the cost of that ticket was doubled. :) Habitual behavior is really what kills finances, IMO.

They were paying for both of them to fly first class.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on March 30, 2015, 05:31:52 PM
Some relatives routinely order $20 movies at hotels on pay-per-view when they know they are going to fall asleep 10 minutes into it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hunny156 on March 31, 2015, 10:44:40 AM
Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

I think the simplest way to try to explain this is saying that the tax deduction is like a coupon, with the coupon rate being equal to their marginal tax rate.

But oftentimes when taxes are involved, you're just trying to use logic on someone who refuses to accept it, so it usually falls flat on its face.

I've explained it with the incredibly simple statement, give me a dollar and I'll give you back 30 cents.  Sounds good, right?

They still don't get it.  Then again, these are the same people who say stuff like, the more you make, the more you spend!  I just try to bite my tongue and not roll my eyes directly in front of them.

Not family related, but we went out to dinner w/some friends at a swanky restaurant recently.  We had a groupon-type deal, so the cost per couple wasn't too bad, although considerably more than what hubby & I would usually spend on eating out.  Our friend was super excited the whole time, she saw pictures of the restaurant online and it looks so nice, and it's so much fun to go to expensive places, especially since we are going on the cheap!

I suspect she was super bummed when everyone decided to eat on the patio, since the weather was nice.  The food was OK, but certainly not worth the price we paid.  I shrugged it off as one of those once in a blue moon nights out w/spendy friends.

On the way back home, I joked about how she didn't get to enjoy the interior of the restaurant, and hubby said to me, every time she opens her mouth, she sounds like my mother.  So true, and so sad...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Dr. A on March 31, 2015, 03:18:12 PM
Some relatives routinely order $20 movies at hotels on pay-per-view when they know they are going to fall asleep 10 minutes into it.

Well... depending on what kind of movie it was, and what they did during those 10 minutes, could be worth it. :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rocketpj on March 31, 2015, 03:33:54 PM
Some relatives routinely order $20 movies at hotels on pay-per-view when they know they are going to fall asleep 10 minutes into it.

Well... depending on what kind of movie it was, and what they did during those 10 minutes, could be worth it. :)

That sort of thing is wonderfully free.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 01, 2015, 07:21:43 AM
One relative who is deeply in debt and digging deeper, did not have health insurance (for himself or his family, even though it was free through Medicaid/CHIP), but still paid for life insurance for his children. He still refused to cancel it even after I told him that if one of his kids died, we'd take care of funeral expenses. If your kid died, what are you going to do with the money? Buy yourself a car? "OK, let's go drive around in little Timmie's death dividend". Wouldn't you hate that car?

I just hate how children's life insurance is marketed. The language makes it sound as though purchasing it is somehow ensuring your child's life continues instead of giving you a check if they die.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on April 01, 2015, 10:03:32 AM
I have some cousins who have spent thousands on tattoos.
I don't get it personally.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 01, 2015, 08:01:15 PM
A relative took Social Security at 62, even though his wife had a six-figure salary, just so they could spend the extra money. Not only are they losing out on the increased amount he could be getting by waiting, but they are also getting taxed on the early benefit because their income is so high.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 03, 2015, 07:07:04 PM
I provided some financial advice for a retired relative, showing various fund costs, expected and historical performance, and why it made sense to invest with a low-cost provider (i.e. Vanguard), and that the Target Retirement Fund would be a good option due to their need for stable income and fear of losing money in a market crash. He said I was much smarter than him.

So instead of following my advice, he starts talking about buying tax-free municipal bonds in his IRA. Of course the whole point of buying the tax-free bonds is because you don't have to pay taxes on them, and that compensates for the lower returns. But in an IRA, you aren't paying taxes on them anyway. Facepalm.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on April 03, 2015, 10:48:16 PM
I provided some financial advice for a retired relative, showing various fund costs, expected and historical performance, and why it made sense to invest with a low-cost provider (i.e. Vanguard), and that the Target Retirement Fund would be a good option due to their need for stable income and fear of losing money in a market crash. He said I was much smarter than him.

So instead of following my advice, he starts talking about buying tax-free municipal bonds in his IRA. Of course the whole point of buying the tax-free bonds is because you don't have to pay taxes on them, and that compensates for the lower returns. But in an IRA, you aren't paying taxes on them anyway. Facepalm.

He's retired, I"m guessing that he has enough money to live off, or a pension, so if he's happier with municipal bonds, then why not leave him be. If he's retired, investing heavily in a low cost-bond might be the best route.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: bzzzt on April 04, 2015, 06:36:14 AM
My mom called a week ago and invited us to Easter at her house with my immediate family. I respectfully declined due to my wife having to work every night this weekend and wanting to celebrate at home.

She got mad. "Easter is a family holiday. You have a beautiful baby and you should want to dress him up, take him out, and show him off!"

I bit my tongue but I wanted to say "That's why you're always broke. Trying to show off by dressing up in new clothes, shoes, purses, and buying dumb shit!" Basically, she thinks we should want to do what she always did.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: merula on April 04, 2015, 02:32:56 PM
I provided some financial advice for a retired relative, showing various fund costs, expected and historical performance, and why it made sense to invest with a low-cost provider (i.e. Vanguard), and that the Target Retirement Fund would be a good option due to their need for stable income and fear of losing money in a market crash. He said I was much smarter than him.

So instead of following my advice, he starts talking about buying tax-free municipal bonds in his IRA. Of course the whole point of buying the tax-free bonds is because you don't have to pay taxes on them, and that compensates for the lower returns. But in an IRA, you aren't paying taxes on them anyway. Facepalm.


He's retired, I"m guessing that he has enough money to live off, or a pension, so if he's happier with municipal bonds, then why not leave him be. If he's retired, investing heavily in a low cost-bond might be the best route.

Because tax-free bonds have a lower return than taxable bonds with the same risk. The municipalities can do this because the bondholders weigh the lower return against the tax advantages and figure they still come out ahead. If you're holding tax-free munis in a tax-advantaged account, you're getting a lower return without any improved tax advantage.

Imagine a "tax free" store that has higher prices than its competitors, and a "tax free" credit card with a limit of $5,500. They both have advantages, but using the "tax free" credit card at the "tax free" store just means you're paying a higher price than you need to without improving your tax situation.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 10, 2015, 05:08:05 PM
I provided some financial advice for a retired relative, showing various fund costs, expected and historical performance, and why it made sense to invest with a low-cost provider (i.e. Vanguard), and that the Target Retirement Fund would be a good option due to their need for stable income and fear of losing money in a market crash. He said I was much smarter than him.

So instead of following my advice, he starts talking about buying tax-free municipal bonds in his IRA. Of course the whole point of buying the tax-free bonds is because you don't have to pay taxes on them, and that compensates for the lower returns. But in an IRA, you aren't paying taxes on them anyway. Facepalm.

He's retired, I"m guessing that he has enough money to live off, or a pension, so if he's happier with municipal bonds, then why not leave him be. If he's retired, investing heavily in a low cost-bond might be the best route.

He's retired but his wife still has to work to support their poor financial decisions. He's older, so his bad financial management is wasting her retirement savings, which she will need to last a long time.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 10, 2015, 05:19:21 PM
My mom called a week ago and invited us to Easter at her house with my immediate family. I respectfully declined due to my wife having to work every night this weekend and wanting to celebrate at home.

She got mad. "Easter is a family holiday. You have a beautiful baby and you should want to dress him up, take him out, and show him off!"

I bit my tongue but I wanted to say "That's why you're always broke. Trying to show off by dressing up in new clothes, shoes, purses, and buying dumb shit!" Basically, she thinks we should want to do what she always did.

I can't understand how people pay so much money to buy little baby outfits. They are just going to wear it once. My coworkers were cooing over a photo of one of their babies in an Easter tie. Ties are stupid in the first place. But what does your 4 month old need a tie for?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: frugalparagon on April 10, 2015, 05:21:17 PM
My mom called a week ago and invited us to Easter at her house with my immediate family. I respectfully declined due to my wife having to work every night this weekend and wanting to celebrate at home.

She got mad. "Easter is a family holiday. You have a beautiful baby and you should want to dress him up, take him out, and show him off!"

I bit my tongue but I wanted to say "That's why you're always broke. Trying to show off by dressing up in new clothes, shoes, purses, and buying dumb shit!" Basically, she thinks we should want to do what she always did.

I can't understand how people pay so much money to buy little baby outfits. They are just going to wear it once. My coworkers were cooing over a photo of one of their babies in an Easter tie. Ties are stupid in the first place. But what does your 4 month old need a tie for?
My mom called a week ago and invited us to Easter at her house with my immediate family. I respectfully declined due to my wife having to work every night this weekend and wanting to celebrate at home.

She got mad. "Easter is a family holiday. You have a beautiful baby and you should want to dress him up, take him out, and show him off!"

I bit my tongue but I wanted to say "That's why you're always broke. Trying to show off by dressing up in new clothes, shoes, purses, and buying dumb shit!" Basically, she thinks we should want to do what she always did.

I can't understand how people pay so much money to buy little baby outfits. They are just going to wear it once. My coworkers were cooing over a photo of one of their babies in an Easter tie. Ties are stupid in the first place. But what does your 4 month old need a tie for?

Well, yes, they are pretty stupid. But if you really want such a thing, you can get them pretty reasonably priced second-hand... since they only get worn once, they can last for several babies!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: 11ducks on April 10, 2015, 08:50:01 PM

I can't understand how people pay so much money to buy little baby outfits. They are just going to wear it once. My coworkers were cooing over a photo of one of their babies in an Easter tie. Ties are stupid in the first place. But what does your 4 month old need a tie for?

Management opportunities? To look impressive in front of the other babies? So the cufflinks don't seem over the top?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 11, 2015, 10:08:54 AM

I can't understand how people pay so much money to buy little baby outfits. They are just going to wear it once. My coworkers were cooing over a photo of one of their babies in an Easter tie. Ties are stupid in the first place. But what does your 4 month old need a tie for?

Management opportunities? To look impressive in front of the other babies? So the cufflinks don't seem over the top?

One friend dressed her baby in old man clothes. An old man hat, old man sweater. And he had a big, bald head and was kinda fat. He looked like a 70 year old man. Come to think of it, there are a lot of similarities between a baby and an old person. Need diapers, fall asleep all the time, complain about stuff a lot, you can't really understand what they are talking about, they have terrible memories, drooling, need adult supervision, no teeth, need liquid food, need to be pushed around in a wheeled seat,...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on April 11, 2015, 07:07:12 PM
I have some cousins who have spent thousands on tattoos.
I don't get it personally.

I think tattoos were once a symbol of non-conformity...in a conformist sort of way. Personally, I am not a fan of tattoos.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: thurston howell iv on April 13, 2015, 12:46:44 PM
You want stories? I have stories.

Sister: unemployed for past 6 months. Dad is paying the mtg on the house (it's his- he was renting it to her). She has cel phone bill of $275 a month for her and the 3 kids. (New phones- not the cheap old two or three year old models like I use).  Parents felt bad that she and the kids had to suffer watching an old 32" tube tv- so they bought her a flat screen (I didn't get a flat screen)... Kids have iphones, I think she has two ipads, one of the kids just got a new laptop. The list goes on and on. It's sickening.

Mom: Low wage earner. Likes to look fancy (does a great job with thrift store purchases) However, had a perfectly good hyundai but due to her workmates taking about high end cars decided that she needed one as well. She told me that she was going to the "dealer" to buy something. Now, my mom is hard headed and when she wants to do something there is no stopping her. I begged her to let me at least help her find something (I dabble in cars)... So, I asked her what she wanted and her budget. She wanted a BMW and her budget was $3k. (That she was pulling out of her IRA- Trust me I couldn't stop her- I tried!) She was completely clueless to the actual prices of things.

The other night she told me that she took my unemployed sister shopping for "dog clothes" - and my sister wanted to go back later because they had such good deals on F'n Dog Clothes!  I told her that she made my head hurt. :D

My sisters kids: Good kids but totally unmotivated. They want a car and money but don't want to work. My unemployed 18 year old nephew claims he needs at least $80- $100 to take his gf on dates (WTF?!?!)  I asked him where they go and it's usually dinner and a movie. For $100?  F'n insane!!

They actually stress me out everything I think about them. Hell, I talked to the 18 year old the other day on the phone and it made me feel annoyed, angry and sad all at the same time... I want to try to push them in the right direction but their role models aren't helping.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: wordnerd on April 13, 2015, 07:13:35 PM
My mom announced that it's impossible to live on $42,000 a year.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 13, 2015, 07:28:52 PM
My mom announced that it's impossible to live on $42,000 a year.

That's true. It'd take me about 2 years.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cinder on April 13, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
My mom announced that it's impossible to live on $42,000 a year.

That's true. It'd take me about 2 years.

hahaha, +1 to you good sir!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on April 14, 2015, 05:57:55 AM
My mom announced that it's impossible to live on $42,000 a year.

That's true. It'd take me about 2 years.

Badumbum ding!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Helvegen on April 14, 2015, 11:07:20 AM
Mom: Low wage earner. Likes to look fancy (does a great job with thrift store purchases) However, had a perfectly good hyundai but due to her workmates taking about high end cars decided that she needed one as well. She told me that she was going to the "dealer" to buy something. Now, my mom is hard headed and when she wants to do something there is no stopping her. I begged her to let me at least help her find something (I dabble in cars)... So, I asked her what she wanted and her budget. She wanted a BMW and her budget was $3k. (That she was pulling out of her IRA- Trust me I couldn't stop her- I tried!) She was completely clueless to the actual prices of things.


Your mother and my mother sound like they would be great friends.

My mother bought a house that she neither needed or could really afford because she needed to live closer to her boyfriend at the time. They both lived in the same city. She bought a house in the subdivision across the street and then they broke up shortly thereafter. She had to sell the house to her current boyfriend because she simply couldn't afford it without asking her mother all the time for money to pay the property taxes, let alone maintenance costs. She bought a new car at around the same time because she couldn't have something 'old' sitting in the driveway. The car she replaced was just three years old and this was a very upper lower class/lower middle class neighborhood. I don't know who she thought she was going to impress.

She has no plan for retirement and has about $80-90k of student debt. We thought she would be set for awhile with current, very long-term boyfriend. He is a good guy and not a complete idiot with money. He reigns in a lot of her financial stupidity, something us kids could never do. Unfortunately, he will probably not live much longer and then we don't know what will happen to her. My sister and BIL will take her in if necessary so she won't be out on the street, but she has no money saved, no assets, tons of debt, and not a lot of good working years left. It is a very bad situation.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: infogoon on April 14, 2015, 11:35:18 AM
My father is very stuck in the typical Baby Boomer mindset that says everyone should want a house in the suburbs with a couple of new cars in the driveway, and he keeps asking "when are you going to move out of the city?"

Well, as soon as moving out of the city would mean something besides tripling my property taxes as well as my commute. Instead, I think I'll just stay in the house I paid off 20 years early and keep investing the money I'd otherwise use keeping up with the neighbors. My generation doesn't have pensions to look forward to, you know?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on April 14, 2015, 01:37:31 PM

She has no plan for retirement and has about $80-90k of student debt. We thought she would be set for awhile with current, very long-term boyfriend. He is a good guy and not a complete idiot with money. He reigns in a lot of her financial stupidity, something us kids could never do. Unfortunately, he will probably not live much longer and then we don't know what will happen to her. My sister and BIL will take her in if necessary so she won't be out on the street, but she has no money saved, no assets, tons of debt, and not a lot of good working years left. It is a very bad situation.
My mom is not extravagant but all the same she's in the same boat. She decided to go to seminary in her early 60s, used up tens of thousands from her home sale and tens of thousands more from an inheritance, and then borrowed (I don't know, and I don't even really want to know, but maybe 100k) to finish her M-Div, and now does the odd teaching and preaching at the same institution that awarded it, which basically pays for gas and groceries. Last I heard she had a free apartment through April and no idea what she'd do next, and she's not very communicative these days - anxiety and depression, mostly. We three kids are at a loss.

It used to be that one of my big motivations for getting rich was to provide for her if/when she needed it. Now I just look back and shake my head over all of her squandered opportunities, and the looming burden of managing her care when she's destitute and ill. *sigh*

My father is very stuck in the typical Baby Boomer mindset that says everyone should want a house in the suburbs with a couple of new cars in the driveway, and he keeps asking "when are you going to move out of the city?"

Well, as soon as moving out of the city would mean something besides tripling my property taxes as well as my commute. Instead, I think I'll just stay in the house I paid off 20 years early and keep investing the money I'd otherwise use keeping up with the neighbors. My generation doesn't have pensions to look forward to, you know?

Ha! I guess your dad didn't get the memo... over the last decade-plus, urban blight became renewal and the exodus reversed course.
I just moved out of the suburbs and even with a slightly longer commute, I'm so much happier. I love having all my basic needs in walking distance, and I drive less overall.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: irishbear99 on April 14, 2015, 02:40:19 PM
She got mad. "Easter is a family holiday. You have a beautiful baby and you should want to dress him up, take him out, and show him off!"

I bit my tongue but I wanted to say "That's why you're always broke. Trying to show off by dressing up in new clothes, shoes, purses, and buying dumb shit!" Basically, she thinks we should want to do what she always did.

This gave me an ick, and not just from the financial side. He's a baby, not a doll. Dressing kids up and showing them off like possessions is, well, ick.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kris on April 14, 2015, 05:36:25 PM
She got mad. "Easter is a family holiday. You have a beautiful baby and you should want to dress him up, take him out, and show him off!"

I bit my tongue but I wanted to say "That's why you're always broke. Trying to show off by dressing up in new clothes, shoes, purses, and buying dumb shit!" Basically, she thinks we should want to do what she always did.

This gave me an ick, and not just from the financial side. He's a baby, not a doll. Dressing kids up and showing them off like possessions is, well, ick.

No kidding.  As someone who doesn't have kids myself, I think I'm doubly squicked out by this trend.  I have many FB friends with young children right now, and every birthday and major holiday brings a new flood of photos of them in reindeer ears, or a bunny costume, or... I dunno, I just see all this pointless money being spent just to get a photo that will be the carbon copy of the photos of every other kid that age that year, during that holiday.  Bleah. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on April 14, 2015, 05:50:05 PM
Well, you wouldn't want your kid to be seen on your Facebook feed in last year's styles, would you?

As my wife found out, "hot items" for kids rotate around a lot - monkeys, elephants, various other animals have been popular in various years, and then are suddenly dated so, of course, you have to go buy new baby outfits instead of using *last year's* stuff from a friend...

If you care.

My daughter is currently rocking some hand-decorated onesies that were made for her at the baby shower. :)  And since she doesn't yet care if she's in style or out of style, we don't either.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Megma on April 14, 2015, 06:08:57 PM
My mom, whom I dearly love but thankfully don't take after when it comes to $$, lives in a 5 bed/3bath house with my stepfather ONLY. They live in a low COL area, their house is valued around 500k, average house is around 200k max. It's not even half paid off, they up sized twice in the past ten years, this after I, their youngest child moved out.

Within the past few years they've inherited by my estimates over 250k, yet last year they borrowed 5k from me. I was supposed to be paid back within a month, now they're up to 17k and I cut them off. They also borrowed around 5k that I know about from my sister.

They had two brand new cars, at least 30k cars each and my stepfather had a 20k motorcycle. I insisted they sell the bike, none of these were paid for btw.

Mom is in her 50s and has no retirement savings, they withdrew all of it 10 years ago, paying a penalty and did who knows what with it. She does own a business and says she'll just sell that when she wants to retire...it's a small town..I've told her sh shouldn't count on being able to sell it since its a niche industry, who knows how long it would take to find a buyer. She also owes at least 200k on the businesses assets.

Thankfully I take after my dad when it comes to money. I'm pretty sure she'll be living with me someday.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kris on April 14, 2015, 07:20:18 PM
Well, you wouldn't want your kid to be seen on your Facebook feed in last year's styles, would you?

As my wife found out, "hot items" for kids rotate around a lot - monkeys, elephants, various other animals have been popular in various years, and then are suddenly dated so, of course, you have to go buy new baby outfits instead of using *last year's* stuff from a friend...

If you care.

My daughter is currently rocking some hand-decorated onesies that were made for her at the baby shower. :)  And since she doesn't yet care if she's in style or out of style, we don't either.

And then, related to that, are the PET costumes. SMDH...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: PencilThinStash on April 15, 2015, 07:28:09 AM
Well, you wouldn't want your kid to be seen on your Facebook feed in last year's styles, would you?

As my wife found out, "hot items" for kids rotate around a lot - monkeys, elephants, various other animals have been popular in various years, and then are suddenly dated so, of course, you have to go buy new baby outfits instead of using *last year's* stuff from a friend...

If you care.

My daughter is currently rocking some hand-decorated onesies that were made for her at the baby shower. :)  And since she doesn't yet care if she's in style or out of style, we don't either.

And then, related to that, are the PET costumes. SMDH...

When I look at how much money I wasted on my own Halloween costumes back in college, it's much harder to judge the people who get them for their dogs. I'd never do it myself, but some of them are admittedly hilarious.

People who dress up their pets when it's not Halloween... Well, I guess I'm a fan of that too, if only because it's a quick, easy way to determine that I never have to take their advice seriously or consider dating them. Efficiency!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kris on April 15, 2015, 07:44:25 AM
Well, you wouldn't want your kid to be seen on your Facebook feed in last year's styles, would you?

As my wife found out, "hot items" for kids rotate around a lot - monkeys, elephants, various other animals have been popular in various years, and then are suddenly dated so, of course, you have to go buy new baby outfits instead of using *last year's* stuff from a friend...

If you care.

My daughter is currently rocking some hand-decorated onesies that were made for her at the baby shower. :)  And since she doesn't yet care if she's in style or out of style, we don't either.

And then, related to that, are the PET costumes. SMDH...

When I look at how much money I wasted on my own Halloween costumes back in college, it's much harder to judge the people who get them for their dogs. I'd never do it myself, but some of them are admittedly hilarious.

People who dress up their pets when it's not Halloween... Well, I guess I'm a fan of that too, if only because it's a quick, easy way to determine that I never have to take their advice seriously or consider dating them. Efficiency!

Lol -- yeah, lots of blatant Spendypants activity has that advantage!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: merula on April 15, 2015, 08:42:46 AM
She got mad. "Easter is a family holiday. You have a beautiful baby and you should want to dress him up, take him out, and show him off!"

I bit my tongue but I wanted to say "That's why you're always broke. Trying to show off by dressing up in new clothes, shoes, purses, and buying dumb shit!" Basically, she thinks we should want to do what she always did.

This gave me an ick, and not just from the financial side. He's a baby, not a doll. Dressing kids up and showing them off like possessions is, well, ick.

No kidding.  As someone who doesn't have kids myself, I think I'm doubly squicked out by this trend.  I have many FB friends with young children right now, and every birthday and major holiday brings a new flood of photos of them in reindeer ears, or a bunny costume, or... I dunno, I just see all this pointless money being spent just to get a photo that will be the carbon copy of the photos of every other kid that age that year, during that holiday.  Bleah. 

Just want to pipe in that it's totally possible to dress kids up for practically nothing. I get more clothes as gifts than my kids can ever possibly use, and nothing I've said has been able to stop the flood. (Clothes at least are practical; asking for clothes means I don't get cheap plastic crap, a menagerie of stuffed animals and a case of silly string.)

I have taken photos of both my kids in a turkey leg headband (won in a game of "turkey bowling" that was free at the local college), bunny ears (got 5ish years ago when my aunt hosted Easter and passed them out to everyone), and a pair of Santa pajamas (bought for $2 on clearance at an outlet mall in May). Was that $2 I didn't have to spend? Well, yeah. But I still consider it well spent.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: druth on April 15, 2015, 09:18:34 AM
A couple new ones...

Boyfriend's brother had his car totaled.  Oh noes!  Their other car also broke down around this time, and of course they had no emergency fund.  Well his wife needs a car to get to work, she works at different sites all the time, and travels to places all over the state.  He works downtown, about a 20 min bus ride from work, and pays to park every day.  So what do you do?  Lease a new Nissan Altima of course!  never mind their combined income is less than 45k, and that he is still in school and working part time.

This comes on the heels of the other siblings who also work downtown(and make much more money and aren't still in school) trying to explain to him why driving to work downtown is a horrible and expensive idea.  "But I like having the freedom" he says!

We also offered to lend them one of ours(since I almost never drive anyways) until they could put money aside and they just brushed it off.  It's much more fun to spend a bunch of money than drive a '99 Honda.

Second story:

I'm looking at houses, trying to keep under 160k.  I have been looking with my mom.  She is an electrician and is very helpful to have along to point out problems I wouldn't notice.  On the other hand she has been very open with her opinion that we need to spend more.  "You[me and boyfriend] make almost what we[my parents] make and I would never live in any of these houses.  You can afford it so don't be too cheap about it."  Maybe you wouldn't live there, but we don't need a big house, or perfectly finished everything.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on April 15, 2015, 10:04:42 AM
My cousin who recently finished college and spent a few months as a substitute teacher finally landed her first full-time gig. Next step? Finance a brand-new car. I attempted a gentle facepunch but was basically told not to be such a killjoy. Oh well.
At least she still lives with parents so I doubt it's a strain on her income... but I could be a billionaire and I'd still buy used on general principle.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Fuzzy Buttons on April 15, 2015, 11:06:11 AM

I can't understand how people pay so much money to buy little baby outfits. They are just going to wear it once. My coworkers were cooing over a photo of one of their babies in an Easter tie. Ties are stupid in the first place. But what does your 4 month old need a tie for?

Management opportunities? To look impressive in front of the other babies? So the cufflinks don't seem over the top?

Every single one of those made me laugh.  :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on April 15, 2015, 11:09:13 AM
I pinged my mom last night because her free housing expires in a couple of weeks and she herself describes her current income as "tiny". She can't afford her own place in her city.
I wanted to know if we (or anyone) might need to help her in the near future. She thanked me for my concern and admitted the situation was stressful but didn't really answer. I'm still worried. :(
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 15, 2015, 05:50:45 PM
A relative was offered a new phone plan. It would save them $50 per month and give them upgraded phones. But he would have had to mail in his old phone (after getting the new one), so he didn't do it because it was too much hassle to drop it in the mailbox. $600 for 5 minutes of effort is about $7,200 per hour.

And he's unemployed, so the opportunity cost on his time is pretty low.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: merula on April 16, 2015, 07:52:06 AM
This is relatively minor, but is a symptom of a pattern with my in-laws.

Over the weekend, we took our bike ride to the grocery store with kids in a long time (the youngest just turned one, it was his first "real" ride). We ran into my in-laws there; they were buying a baguette. I mentioned that we much prefer the bread at the bakery that's a half mile from their house.

Response: "Oh, we went there first, but the line was too long."

Background: the bakery is tiny, and is always packed on weekend mornings. They staff it adequately; two people working each of the three registers, but the inside will maybe only fit 15 people standing in line. So there could be a line 10 deep out the door and that'll still be a 10 minute wait max.

So, my in-laws walked a half mile, decided the 10 minute line was too long, walked back, got in the car to drive 10 minutes to the grocery store, spent 10 minutes shopping (because you can't just get in and out like you could at the bakery), and drove 10 minutes back.

At least they walked to the bakery. Honestly, that's a major improvement.
Title: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: pbkmaine on April 16, 2015, 08:08:46 AM
LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: thurston howell iv on April 16, 2015, 09:05:17 AM
As I was reading this I was thinking about all the crazy moms. (mine included)

I recalled going to see her and my father a year or two ago. I drove down in my 17 year old Honda. She was visually dismayed. She was upset that I had an old beater. She exclaimed "you and your wife are professionals, you should have nicer cars - like BMW's or Mercedes"  She went on to say "You used to have nicer cars when you were poor" . Umm. Yeah mom, that's why I was poor. LOL (And I'm still poor, paying of debt and stupid mistakes...)  Even after I explain all of this she still doesn't get it. Worried about what other people will think.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: greenmimama on April 16, 2015, 09:20:05 AM
As I was reading this I was thinking about all the crazy moms. (mine included)

I recalled going to see her and my father a year or two ago. I drove down in my 17 year old Honda. She was visually dismayed. She was upset that I had an old beater. She exclaimed "you and your wife are professionals, you should have nicer cars - like BMW's or Mercedes"  She went on to say "You used to have nicer cars when you were poor" . Umm. Yeah mom, that's why I was poor. LOL (And I'm still poor, paying of debt and stupid mistakes...)  Even after I explain all of this she still doesn't get it. Worried about what other people will think.

We get that too, I am positive we make more than allllll of our friends but we have the oldest van :) I don't care, I love it and I love the no payments, and I like the financial sense it makes.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iamlittlehedgehog on April 16, 2015, 12:16:22 PM
Sister-in-law

She has a heart of gold and means well (still hate me) but makes very poor financial decisions. She makes decent money working from home for a large car insurance agency. For the past 10 years she has lived rent free in father-in-law's dilapidated house until it was finally foreclosed on and she was kicked out. 10 years rent free would be plenty of time to save up for a decent down payment, right? Nope, she had nothing. So she rented a very small trailer that is in worse shape than the house. Now, you may be asking what could be spending her money on?
1st - pot, and lots of it
2nd - for some reason she decided to marry a 22 year old toddler. He was making good money as a driver until a diabetes diagnosis. He was uninsured so this was very costly. Then she decided to send him to an expensive, private trade school half way across the state. He was eligible for the Pell Grant, which did cover most of his tuition and room and board. But she still insisted on sending  1-2k a month to him so he could be "comfortable" and finish said school. Well, he graduated almost a year ago and still hasn't found a job yet and is still living over there on her dime doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on April 16, 2015, 12:49:46 PM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iamlittlehedgehog on April 16, 2015, 01:10:39 PM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: sisto on April 16, 2015, 06:58:38 PM
Today morning my wife mentions that the lady had already bought jewelry worth $1600 anticipating tax refund.
But...I thought they owed the IRS $1k+?
They didn't know that till yesterday evening. The lady bought the jewelry few days ago. Yesterday, I definitely ruined their evening.
MBK you are such a buzzkill
OMG this totally thread has me shaking my head, laughing, and crying all at the same time.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on April 17, 2015, 12:05:53 AM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: bdoubleu on April 17, 2015, 06:44:00 AM
Rummage sale season is upon our neighborhood.  SIL had "some" of her maternity clothes she wanted to get rid of (she just had their final offspring in September, no more babies for them).  She brought over more clothes than I currently own (and perhaps have EVER owned in my entire life??).  Everything was brand name, from stores I wouldn't dream of stepping into (not judging, I just have zero interest in "fashion" or spending my money that way).  Granted, some or all may have been given to her, but I highly doubt it based on her other habits.  Mine and hub's first thoughts were to imagine what her closet of non-maternity clothes looks like...as she would have only worn these clothes for a year at most (two pregnancies).

Everything is marked AT LEAST $5 for tops (tank tops ~$2), up to $20 for pants/jeans.  For (very obviously) USED clothes.  At a rummage sale.  In a day, a grand total of $5 worth of her clothes sold (while the rest of the stuff everyone else has for sale is pretty much gone). And she won't drop the prices.

I just purchased what I think will be my entire maternity wardrobe (SIL are not even close to the same size) brand new for $250 (includes pants/jeans/shorts/tops/tanks/bras).  Unmustachian, but we can easily afford it.  SIL, however, constantly complains about having to work, not having time to do anything she wants to because of work, etc.  We probably make double what they make in income, but spend about half what they do.  And they wonder how we manage to have our shit together financially....
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: merula on April 17, 2015, 07:48:54 AM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?

Expensive to buy, cheap to grow?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Candace on April 17, 2015, 07:55:26 AM
Rummage sale season is upon our neighborhood.  SIL had "some" of her maternity clothes she wanted to get rid of (she just had their final offspring in September, no more babies for them).  She brought over more clothes than I currently own (and perhaps have EVER owned in my entire life??).  Everything was brand name, from stores I wouldn't dream of stepping into (not judging, I just have zero interest in "fashion" or spending my money that way).  Granted, some or all may have been given to her, but I highly doubt it based on her other habits.  Mine and hub's first thoughts were to imagine what her closet of non-maternity clothes looks like...as she would have only worn these clothes for a year at most (two pregnancies).

Everything is marked AT LEAST $5 for tops (tank tops ~$2), up to $20 for pants/jeans.  For (very obviously) USED clothes.  At a rummage sale.  In a day, a grand total of $5 worth of her clothes sold (while the rest of the stuff everyone else has for sale is pretty much gone). And she won't drop the prices.

I just purchased what I think will be my entire maternity wardrobe (SIL are not even close to the same size) brand new for $250 (includes pants/jeans/shorts/tops/tanks/bras).  Unmustachian, but we can easily afford it.  SIL, however, constantly complains about having to work, not having time to do anything she wants to because of work, etc.  We probably make double what they make in income, but spend about half what they do.  And they wonder how we manage to have our shit together financially....

This isn't really on topic, but --perhaps your SIL would have better luck at a consignment shop. It won't help with her habits, but she might be able to recoup some of the costs. Or she could donate and claim a tax deduction. She might do just as well that way. Frankly I cannot be bothered to go to the trouble of having a yard sale when you can reasonably recoup yard sale appropriate prices by claiming a deduction, especially when donating nice and gently used things.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on April 17, 2015, 08:09:28 AM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?

Expensive to buy, cheap to grow?

Not user anymore, and when I was I wasn't a regular user--maybe 1-2 times a year in a place where it is legal-ish, for a total of 5-7 times in my life. So I'm probably not the best guy to answer, but I'll try anyways: My friend gets it, (about 2-4 grams I think? Not sure on the amount, but I've seen it in person) and it costs her $40. That amount would last me personally about 3-6 months if I were to partake about 5 times a month. Now, it should be noted that I never saw the need for more than one to three hits, any more and it really would get me paranoid and jumpy. I assume someone like the person referenced here would have about double my monthly total in a day, and do it every day. I've seen people like that. So, for a guy like me, about $6 to $15 dollars a month. For someone like the above SIL, about $65 to $150 a month.

All guesses though, as I've never actually partaked more than 4 times in a single year, and never more than 3 times in a month.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: bdoubleu on April 17, 2015, 01:55:35 PM
Rummage sale season is upon our neighborhood.  SIL had "some" of her maternity clothes she wanted to get rid of (she just had their final offspring in September, no more babies for them).  She brought over more clothes than I currently own (and perhaps have EVER owned in my entire life??).  Everything was brand name, from stores I wouldn't dream of stepping into (not judging, I just have zero interest in "fashion" or spending my money that way).  Granted, some or all may have been given to her, but I highly doubt it based on her other habits.  Mine and hub's first thoughts were to imagine what her closet of non-maternity clothes looks like...as she would have only worn these clothes for a year at most (two pregnancies).

Everything is marked AT LEAST $5 for tops (tank tops ~$2), up to $20 for pants/jeans.  For (very obviously) USED clothes.  At a rummage sale.  In a day, a grand total of $5 worth of her clothes sold (while the rest of the stuff everyone else has for sale is pretty much gone). And she won't drop the prices.

I just purchased what I think will be my entire maternity wardrobe (SIL are not even close to the same size) brand new for $250 (includes pants/jeans/shorts/tops/tanks/bras).  Unmustachian, but we can easily afford it.  SIL, however, constantly complains about having to work, not having time to do anything she wants to because of work, etc.  We probably make double what they make in income, but spend about half what they do.  And they wonder how we manage to have our shit together financially....

This isn't really on topic, but --perhaps your SIL would have better luck at a consignment shop. It won't help with her habits, but she might be able to recoup some of the costs. Or she could donate and claim a tax deduction. She might do just as well that way. Frankly I cannot be bothered to go to the trouble of having a yard sale when you can reasonably recoup yard sale appropriate prices by claiming a deduction, especially when donating nice and gently used things.

Seems reasonable, I agree.  But she doesn't have the TIME. :) For further examples of laziness/"lack of time," they also brought over a fancy baby swing that was apparently $250 new a few years ago, and they want $175 firm for it, "because we could easily get $200 for it on Ebay."  Ummm, so do that??  Nobody wants to spend that much on an old model, used baby swing at a garage sale.

My hubs doesn't work (yay FIRE!), and I think he was looking for an excuse to hang out in the garage and socialize with randos for a couple days.  So we put a few things out, and the inlaws brought their truckloads of junk over, and promptly left.   I personally can't stand the time-suck of garage sales either, but he's enjoying himself :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Paul der Krake on April 17, 2015, 04:34:24 PM
Seems reasonable, I agree.  But she doesn't have the TIME. :) For further examples of laziness/"lack of time," they also brought over a fancy baby swing that was apparently $250 new a few years ago, and they want $175 firm for it, "because we could easily get $200 for it on Ebay."  Ummm, so do that??  Nobody wants to spend that much on an old model, used baby swing at a garage sale.
Yeah most people have a very vivid imagination when to comes to the price of their used goods.

"We bought this house for 150k 10 years ago and put 50k to redo the kitchen, so it is worth at least 200k plus inflation!"

 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on April 17, 2015, 04:44:10 PM
Um.

No.

$150k 10 years ago, plus a $50k kitchen, means it's worth at LEAST half a million.  Maybe closer to $750k.  Housing is a great investment that never goes down in value, you know.  There's only so much land on the planet!

:p
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cinder on April 19, 2015, 05:55:30 AM
A relative was offered a new phone plan. It would save them $50 per month and give them upgraded phones. But he would have had to mail in his old phone (after getting the new one), so he didn't do it because it was too much hassle to drop it in the mailbox. $600 for 5 minutes of effort is about $7,200 per hour.

And he's unemployed, so the opportunity cost on his time is pretty low.

My SIL had a free ride to a Local community college because she was a single mom (her mom was actually caring for the kid because she was incompetent).   All she had to do was sign a form and mail/turn it in.   That was to much work for her...


She later went back to school, racked up debt for a medical billing and coding degree, and was fired from her first job after a few months. 


Her whole life has been a combination of less than optimal decisions.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mbk on April 19, 2015, 08:18:38 AM
Today morning my wife mentions that the lady had already bought jewelry worth $1600 anticipating tax refund.
But...I thought they owed the IRS $1k+?
They didn't know that till yesterday evening. The lady bought the jewelry few days ago. Yesterday, I definitely ruined their evening.
Another update on my neighbours. The seller loan on the jewelry was due last month. So the lady took out cash from her credit card and cleared it. More balance with high APR :(
Fast forward to yesterday, they informed me that they got a refund of $250. They got there by inflating the repair/maintenance expenses on the car used for Uber driving. They don't have any documentation and if audited will be in trouble. However with the IRS budget cuts, my guess is that the probability of auditing is low. They are happy that they don't have to pay IRS $1k, but are forgetting that they wasted $1.6k unnecessarily.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rocketpj on April 19, 2015, 09:26:28 AM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?

Pot's not really a hippy thing anymore (aren't most hippies into their 60s at this point?). 

It is, and has been for a long time, a 'people in their late teens to mid 20s who don't know what to do with themselves' thing.  And some older people who seem to function just fine on it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iamlittlehedgehog on April 19, 2015, 03:40:23 PM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.


How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?

Pot's not really a hippy thing anymore (aren't most hippies into their 60s at this point?). 

It is, and has been for a long time, a 'people in their late teens to mid 20s who don't know what to do with themselves' thing.  And some older people who seem to function just fine on it.


Let me put it this way. You know film that appears on walls when someone smokes inside the house? They buy enough you can take your finger and draw stick figures. I still smoke on occasion, issue is in our state it is still illegal, even medical, so very expensive. On the upside he has returned this week and started working at the local Wally World so they are *hopefully* getting their financial matters in order.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Megma on April 19, 2015, 06:50:17 PM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?

Expensive to buy, cheap to grow?

Not user anymore, and when I was I wasn't a regular user--maybe 1-2 times a year in a place where it is legal-ish, for a total of 5-7 times in my life. So I'm probably not the best guy to answer, but I'll try anyways: My friend gets it, (about 2-4 grams I think? Not sure on the amount, but I've seen it in person) and it costs her $40. That amount would last me personally about 3-6 months if I were to partake about 5 times a month. Now, it should be noted that I never saw the need for more than one to three hits, any more and it really would get me paranoid and jumpy. I assume someone like the person referenced here would have about double my monthly total in a day, and do it every day. I've seen people like that. So, for a guy like me, about $6 to $15 dollars a month. For someone like the above SIL, about $65 to $150 a month.

All guesses though, as I've never actually partaked more than 4 times in a single year, and never more than 3 times in a month.

I consulted my weed costs authority for you and apparently "good stuff" (ie what middle aged people who still smoke would get, not high school kids) is $60 for an 1/8 ounce (3.5 grams). That's about 3 joints depending on how you roll them (with tobacco and how much, etc). Prices go down if you buy in bulk, like you know Costco style, or buy the shitty stuff.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sofa King on April 19, 2015, 07:20:01 PM
It's organic!!!!   :  )   ENJOY!!!!!  :  )
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Apples on April 21, 2015, 02:02:16 PM
In-laws.  2 years since getting engaged, I think I'm finally figuring out how to respond to them.  Last year, they had a $350 inspection fee for their insurance to cover fixing ice dams that led to water damage in several rooms in their house.  They didn't have the cash to cover it, partly because they had recently helped my now DH in a major way, so we had been paying them back over 4-5 months.  Well when they needed that money suddenly we just took the rest of what we owed out of savings and sent a check to them.  I thought the lack of money was due to having recently helped DH by a fairly large amount of money.

Apparently not.

They usually get a $1,000-$1,500 refund from the IRS every year.  This year they owe $2,000.  They won't tell DH, or really me, about their tax situation to explain this sudden large change.  My only guess is that all the overtime my FIL worked last year changed the number of "correct" allowances to claim so they under-withheld.  Do they have any savings to cover this?  NONE.  FIL has been working overtime every day of the week to get enough money to pay.  MIL is going to have surgery soon, is not currently working like she usually does, and will need to pay for whatever health insurance doesn't cover.  They have no money saved for this.  They are empty nesters and might be in a worse situation now than when their kids were home.  At first this angered and frustrated me, then I moved to worry, and now I shake my head and try to let it go.  This is just how they are, and I don't know that they, especially my MIL, actually want to change.  So now I keep my nose out of it.  But really, not even $2,000 in savings?!?  And they already have a 401k loan out for previously mentioned DH expenses.  Which we promptly paid them back for, but most of that money went towards the inspection and redoing some rooms.  Because obviously when you repaint due to water damage that's your opportunity do redo your decor.

I nod and try to look sympathetic.  But DH says that what I'm thinking tends to show up on my face, so idk how well I'm pulling this off.  We're going to see them in a few weeks.  I should start practicing...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Candace on April 22, 2015, 08:24:26 AM
But really, not even $2,000 in savings?!? 

I would bet most people don't have that much. I "lent" my brother $4000 last year to keep him out of jail after he made a series of truly stupid decisions (none unsafe to him or others -- he ignored parking tickets until arrested and then needed bond). If he had gone to jail, he would have lost his job and had an even harder time staying solvent. I told a couple of friends about this and when I said "Really? Who doesn't have $4000?" I got blank stares from my friends, who are a college professor and a well-paid landscape architect.

It's amazing to me that people with professional jobs hardly keep any buffer in savings. What happens when you need cash immediately for your furnace or air conditioner? Or some real emergency, like, say, staying out of jail? And in cases like my brother, if I hadn't been able to give him the money, he would have quickly fallen into a much deeper hole. Now, he is still struggling (and of course the $4000 went to pay for lawyers), but he has been promoted at work and gotten a raise. He needs to support his girlfriend right now due to her issues, so I don't know if I'll ever get paid back. But at least I helped prevent a disaster.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on April 22, 2015, 09:36:35 AM

I consulted my weed costs authority for you and apparently "good stuff" (ie what middle aged people who still smoke would get, not high school kids) is $60 for an 1/8 ounce (3.5 grams). That's about 3 joints depending on how you roll them (with tobacco and how much, etc). Prices go down if you buy in bulk, like you know Costco style, or buy the shitty stuff.

Price varies by where you are and who you know, and of course, what quality you are buying. For an eighth to be 3 joints, they must be some massive joints. I know some heavy smokers with high tolerance and they say that a good quality eight that they buy for $50 lasts them an entire week. For them, that means that they are smoking multiple bowls each night after work. Rolling joints in their experience is a complete waste of money. Instead they recommend getting a one-hitter or packing a small bowl. The only times that they pack a full bowl is if they are toking with friends and are going to be passing it around.

That said, the future of weed is going to be wax and oil concentrates. I know a few people that will buy a gram of wax for maybe $40-50, and it can last them a month, in which they are getting a pretty good high each month. This reduces their cost significantly and as they use a vape pen, it is easier on their throat.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on April 22, 2015, 09:55:24 AM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?
That's a good question.  Speaking of the "hippies", my sister (who is in her 60s) grew that good organic stuff back in the 80's.  I'm pretty sure she's been off it for decades, but her 30-something year old son self-medicates his ADD with it. And he lives in CO, so he might be growing it now.

I live in CA, and apparently it's relatively common here for adults to do it from time to time.

I'm almost 45 and haven't ever even smoked a cigarette.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on April 22, 2015, 10:49:39 AM
It's amazing to me that people with professional jobs hardly keep any buffer in savings. What happens when you need cash immediately for your furnace or air conditioner? Or some real emergency, like, say, staying out of jail?

You put it on your credit card!  Duh!  That's what they're there for!  *sigh*

I used to get a lot of the "Discover Checks" in the mail.  They are basically a check drawn against your credit line with cash advance fees tacked on, and they talked about how great they were to keep around for things like vacations, emergencies, etc.  The CC companies very much push the "A CC is an emergency fund" way of thinking...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Megma on April 22, 2015, 12:47:46 PM

I consulted my weed costs authority for you and apparently "good stuff" (ie what middle aged people who still smoke would get, not high school kids) is $60 for an 1/8 ounce (3.5 grams). That's about 3 joints depending on how you roll them (with tobacco and how much, etc). Prices go down if you buy in bulk, like you know Costco style, or buy the shitty stuff.

Price varies by where you are and who you know, and of course, what quality you are buying. For an eighth to be 3 joints, they must be some massive joints. I know some heavy smokers with high tolerance and they say that a good quality eight that they buy for $50 lasts them an entire week. For them, that means that they are smoking multiple bowls each night after work. Rolling joints in their experience is a complete waste of money. Instead they recommend getting a one-hitter or packing a small bowl. The only times that they pack a full bowl is if they are toking with friends and are going to be passing it around.

That said, the future of weed is going to be wax and oil concentrates. I know a few people that will buy a gram of wax for maybe $40-50, and it can last them a month, in which they are getting a pretty good high each month. This reduces their cost significantly and as they use a vape pen, it is easier on their throat.

MgoSam apparently knows way more about this that I do! Maybe he said it was 5 joints depending on the roll? Either way, costs can add up quickly!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Silverwood on April 22, 2015, 12:58:17 PM
Here you can usually get good stuff, $60 for a quarter (7 grams) I agree that joints are a waste.  I know people that smoke a quarter a week so 240 a month on just pot
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rocketpj on April 22, 2015, 03:38:10 PM
Here you can usually get good stuff, $60 for a quarter (7 grams) I agree that joints are a waste.  I know people that smoke a quarter a week so 240 a month on just pot

I don't smoke the stuff anymore, but here on Coastal BC the price is somewhat less dear as far as I can tell.  I never 'quit' smoking weed so much as gradually lost interest until I recently realized that I haven't smoked it in about 5years (when I found some in my spice cupboard that was as dry as a mummy). 

That said, it is like any other thing.  A person can spend boatloads of cash on coffee, or smokes, or beer.  It can take over their lives, or not.  Personality is a part of it.  I have known more than one person with a variety or ADHD who smokes a lot of weed, and which seems to bring them down to a more stable level of function.  Me I start at stable and go down into drooling passivity, which is of no interest to me, but to each their own.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on April 23, 2015, 10:14:39 AM
It's amazing to me that people with professional jobs hardly keep any buffer in savings. What happens when you need cash immediately for your furnace or air conditioner? Or some real emergency, like, say, staying out of jail?

You put it on your credit card!  Duh!  That's what they're there for!  *sigh*

I used to get a lot of the "Discover Checks" in the mail.  They are basically a check drawn against your credit line with cash advance fees tacked on, and they talked about how great they were to keep around for things like vacations, emergencies, etc.  The CC companies very much push the "A CC is an emergency fund" way of thinking...
I once put an AC unit on one card (cash reward, ~$55) then transferred most of the balance to another for a 1% fee ($45 or so) and took 18 months to pay it off at 0% while plowing money into TSP and IRAs... worked pretty well for me. Springy debt cushion > emergency fund.
Of course, even with a high-700s score I don't get offers like that lately. I think they've figured out I'm bad for business.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hunny156 on April 23, 2015, 11:51:59 AM
It's amazing to me that people with professional jobs hardly keep any buffer in savings. What happens when you need cash immediately for your furnace or air conditioner? Or some real emergency, like, say, staying out of jail?

You put it on your credit card!  Duh!  That's what they're there for!  *sigh*

I used to get a lot of the "Discover Checks" in the mail.  They are basically a check drawn against your credit line with cash advance fees tacked on, and they talked about how great they were to keep around for things like vacations, emergencies, etc.  The CC companies very much push the "A CC is an emergency fund" way of thinking...

My friends have a known issue w/their A/C unit, which, needs to be replaced.  Last year, they had refrigerant added to squeeze out another year, and they then got one of those home warranty programs.  The plan is to wait for it to crap out this year, and then get the home warranty program to pay for the replacement.  They are convinced this will happen easily, they've "done their research" on this program.

Last month they were in a huff b/c their water/ice dispenser on the fridge is broken.  Apparently, it's a known manufacturer defect.  Instead of handling the problem when it first popped up years ago, they decided to just start buying bottled water for the fridge instead.  Now that they have the home warranty program, they called them in, which was a multi-visit hassle.  In the end, they paid for the service call, and the home warranty program denied their claim, since it was a known manufacturer defect.  The home warranty program contacted the manufacturer, who agreed to send a replacement door for the warranty program to install.  They have refused that option, b/c their online research shows that this only solves the problem for a few years, the real issue is in the back of the unit.  They are now waiting for a sale to just throw out this useless fridge and buy a brand new one.  I suggested they take up the offer of a new door, use it for a few months and then sell the unit on Craig's List, or hey, just live w/o an ice/water dispenser?  They looked at me like I was nuts.

Gee, I wonder how that A/C replacement will go!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on April 23, 2015, 12:25:00 PM
I once put an AC unit on one card (cash reward, ~$55) then transferred most of the balance to another for a 1% fee ($45 or so) and took 18 months to pay it off at 0% while plowing money into TSP and IRAs... worked pretty well for me. Springy debt cushion > emergency fund.
Of course, even with a high-700s score I don't get offers like that lately. I think they've figured out I'm bad for business.

That's not what most people do when they pay for an emergency with a credit card, and you know it. :p
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on April 23, 2015, 01:08:51 PM

I consulted my weed costs authority for you and apparently "good stuff" (ie what middle aged people who still smoke would get, not high school kids) is $60 for an 1/8 ounce (3.5 grams). That's about 3 joints depending on how you roll them (with tobacco and how much, etc). Prices go down if you buy in bulk, like you know Costco style, or buy the shitty stuff.

Price varies by where you are and who you know, and of course, what quality you are buying. For an eighth to be 3 joints, they must be some massive joints. I know some heavy smokers with high tolerance and they say that a good quality eight that they buy for $50 lasts them an entire week. For them, that means that they are smoking multiple bowls each night after work. Rolling joints in their experience is a complete waste of money. Instead they recommend getting a one-hitter or packing a small bowl. The only times that they pack a full bowl is if they are toking with friends and are going to be passing it around.

That said, the future of weed is going to be wax and oil concentrates. I know a few people that will buy a gram of wax for maybe $40-50, and it can last them a month, in which they are getting a pretty good high each month. This reduces their cost significantly and as they use a vape pen, it is easier on their throat.

MgoSam apparently knows way more about this that I do! Maybe he said it was 5 joints depending on the roll? Either way, costs can add up quickly!

Just doin' my job! That said, it is high time that marijuana be decriminalized (pun intended).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on April 23, 2015, 01:12:28 PM
That's not what most people do when they pay for an emergency with a credit card, and you know it. :p
I know someone that just refinanced a house (max cashout) to pay off consumer debt, but still ended up with ~15K on cards. Is that what you mean?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on April 23, 2015, 01:25:18 PM
Those people are gong to be throwing our their refrigerators every 5 years. It is common for them to go out. Ours went out years ago. I make ice the old fashioned way now & we use a pitcher with a water filter.  Most of our friends have had theirs go out too.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hunny156 on April 23, 2015, 01:34:50 PM
Those people are gong to be throwing our their refrigerators every 5 years. It is common for them to go out. Ours went out years ago. I make ice the old fashioned way now & we use a pitcher with a water filter.  Most of our friends have had theirs go out too.

The fridge came standard with my house, but I could care less about that particular feature.  Ice cube trays take up way less space than all that equipment!  Granted, these days I don't need much freezer space anyhow, but this is one of those things where my Mom was right.  ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on April 23, 2015, 02:05:21 PM
It was nice while it lasted but not a necessity. I don't think I will buy a refri with one the next time unless by then they all come with one. It seems like the more features the more to go wrong. Ugh!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hunny156 on April 23, 2015, 03:27:23 PM
It was nice while it lasted but not a necessity. I don't think I will buy a refri with one the next time unless by then they all come with one. It seems like the more features the more to go wrong. Ugh!

I haven't seen a side by side without one in a long time, especially if it's stainless.  You might have to splurge on those french door fridges, they don't want to clutter the look w/that unit, at least not on the outside.  I want to say some come with a dispenser inside the door, but if you are gonna expend the effort to open the door, how much more effort would it be to pour a glass from a pitcher?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 24, 2015, 11:00:06 AM
I've been trying to tell a relative why he should take his retirement account from an "actively managed" portfolio at a brokerage (i.e. high-fees, no benefit) and instead just put it in Vanguard Target Retirement and literally increase his personal SWR by 50% (due to not having fees).

So now he's going to buy the Vanguard fund inside his "actively managed" high-fee portfolio--and pay the brokerage more to buy the fund instead of just getting it all for free at Vanguard.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Candace on April 24, 2015, 11:04:06 AM
I've been trying to tell a relative why he should take his retirement account from an "actively managed" portfolio at a brokerage (i.e. high-fees, no benefit) and instead just put it in Vanguard Target Retirement and literally increase his personal SWR by 50% (due to not having fees).

So now he's going to buy the Vanguard fund inside his "actively managed" high-fee portfolio--and pay the brokerage more to buy the fund instead of just getting it all for free at Vanguard.
Oh, my goodness, that is painful.

{Face palm}
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: NumberCruncher on April 24, 2015, 11:11:47 AM
It was nice while it lasted but not a necessity. I don't think I will buy a refri with one the next time unless by then they all come with one. It seems like the more features the more to go wrong. Ugh!

Here, here.

I'm going to be sad when I'm forced to own a car without an actual, physical key (as opposed to those smart key things that would cost $$ when they broke).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hunny156 on April 24, 2015, 12:42:04 PM
It was nice while it lasted but not a necessity. I don't think I will buy a refri with one the next time unless by then they all come with one. It seems like the more features the more to go wrong. Ugh!

Here, here.

I'm going to be sad when I'm forced to own a car without an actual, physical key (as opposed to those smart key things that would cost $$ when they broke).

I understand, I was so sad when my no-key car was totaled and I replaced it w/an older, cheaper car with an actual key!  Took a few days to realize I needed it in hand to unlock the car, but we are friends now.  I love that old car and am very proud of her mint condition, while watching all the sad looks I get in the parking lot cause they think I'm poor.  ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: BuildingFrugalHabits on April 26, 2015, 01:59:19 PM
I'm so tired of both sides of my family (in-laws, blood relatives) making fun of me for; heating my house with wood, turning off lights/electronics when they're not being used, turning the hot water heater temp down, growing my own fruit and vegetables, canning, hunting and butchering my own meat, flipping items on craigslist and doubleing my money almost every time, fixing our own vehicles, driving a 20 yr old station wagon, cutting my hair every 3 months, throwing food scraps in the woods for critters (circle of life...enter Lion King music), composting, keeping the AC at 78, not going out to dinner, etc etc etc...  At the same time the in-laws don't appear very happy that they're daughter married the person described above, because I don't treat her like a princess and blow money on her...she was aware of my frugality since day 1 and she stayed with me...shove it!

That all sounds great and I think it's to be commended.  Nice work!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on April 26, 2015, 02:03:06 PM
I love that old car and am very proud of her mint condition, while watching all the sad looks I get in the parking lot cause they think I'm poor.  ;)

I'd totally rather rock an excellent condition older vehicle than a new luxury car. :)  And I have a lot more respect for people who do that, because it takes more than money (really, just halfway decent credit) to keep an old car running.

I'd love an old Jag at some point.  Even though I know they're just about the ultimate garage queen, I love the lines of the old V-12 Jags - a hood that goes on for miles, a tiny little cabin, and that's it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: stlbrah on April 26, 2015, 02:32:19 PM
My sister bought a new camper so big that she needed to trade in the 2012 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited for a brand new Larger SUV to pull it.

They also have to pay to store the camper.

This makes me rage. 50k right there, plus increased money for even worse gas mileage than the old SUV, and expensive storage costs. A while back she mentioned that she didn't take advantage of the employer 401k match, which was 200% of what you put in for up to 10% of salary - best I've ever heard of.

The rest of my family cares too much what people think, so "updates" are always needed and I am not normal for not caring. I am not "living." Yet I am the only one who travels the world and has tried every kind of food and physical activity that I have had a chance to so far.

There was a "well then what do you do?" inquiry for me when I mentioned I got rid of cable a few years ago, lol. They rag on me for not spending time and money at bars a lot too and think I am throwing my life away and being antisocial.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Reynold on April 27, 2015, 04:18:44 PM
But really, not even $2,000 in savings?!? 

I would bet most people don't have that much. I "lent" my brother $4000 last year to keep him out of jail after he made a series of truly stupid decisions (none unsafe to him or others -- he ignored parking tickets until arrested and then needed bond). If he had gone to jail, he would have lost his job and had an even harder time staying solvent. I told a couple of friends about this and when I said "Really? Who doesn't have $4000?" I got blank stares from my friends, who are a college professor and a well-paid landscape architect.

I would bet you are correct; the people we bought our house from when we first got married were retiring and moving to a smaller place, and had recarpeted the house we were buying to put it on the market.  Sears, who installed the carpet, apparently had a lien till it was paid off.  This came up at closing, and we watched them mess around for a couple of hours trying to figure out how they would come up with about $3000 to pay it off and allow the sale.  I think their lawyer ended up "loaning" them the money just to get the closing to happen, since we had a nice check for 20% down ready to pass them once the legalities were cleared up. 

Our real estate agent, by the way, was also puzzled we weren't buying a place based on combining my wife's former income (before moving) and my new income where we moved to.  We preferred making sure we could handle it on one income, that was pretty revolutionary apparently. 

One time at work a couple of employers ago there was a payroll glitch, and paychecks were going to come out a couple of days late.  I was surprised at the number of people for whom this was going to be a disaster, these were office and high tech workers, not minimum wage workers or something. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LiveLean on April 27, 2015, 05:16:11 PM
My wife and I take a lot of grief from her parents and her sister/brother-in-law for not being "laidback." Apparently our reluctance to not buy new cars and all of the latest gadgets/upgrades and go out frequently for drinks makes us uptight. No matter that we've done more traveling than any of them and have a bigger stash than all of them combined. Not that we mention this. They actually think we're in financial straits. It's actually a great cover.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cinder on April 27, 2015, 07:23:43 PM
It was nice while it lasted but not a necessity. I don't think I will buy a refri with one the next time unless by then they all come with one. It seems like the more features the more to go wrong. Ugh!

Here, here.

I'm going to be sad when I'm forced to own a car without an actual, physical key (as opposed to those smart key things that would cost $$ when they broke).

I understand, I was so sad when my no-key car was totaled and I replaced it w/an older, cheaper car with an actual key!  Took a few days to realize I needed it in hand to unlock the car, but we are friends now.  I love that old car and am very proud of her mint condition, while watching all the sad looks I get in the parking lot cause they think I'm poor.  ;)

When I got my Prius with keyless entry, I thought 'Wow, this is awesome!  I won't have to take my key out of my pocket!'.  I then got home to my apartment, and realized that I didn't just have my key automatically in hand from pulling it out of my ignition and still had to dig it out anyway to get in. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Megma on April 27, 2015, 07:36:39 PM
It was nice while it lasted but not a necessity. I don't think I will buy a refri with one the next time unless by then they all come with one. It seems like the more features the more to go wrong. Ugh!

Here, here.

I'm going to be sad when I'm forced to own a car without an actual, physical key (as opposed to those smart key things that would cost $$ when they broke).

I understand, I was so sad when my no-key car was totaled and I replaced it w/an older, cheaper car with an actual key!  Took a few days to realize I needed it in hand to unlock the car, but we are friends now.  I love that old car and am very proud of her mint condition, while watching all the sad looks I get in the parking lot cause they think I'm poor.  ;)

When I got my Prius with keyless entry, I thought 'Wow, this is awesome!  I won't have to take my key out of my pocket!'.  I then got home to my apartment, and realized that I didn't just have my key automatically in hand from pulling it out of my ignition and still had to dig it out anyway to get in.

I keep the Prius key and the house key separate, Prius keys just stay in my purse all the time. Occasionally I will hop out of the car with my purse while bf is driving and it's running, it gets angry and beeps at me but I love the smart key, impossible to lock I'm the car, because the car doesn't lock if the key is inside.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: paddedhat on April 28, 2015, 05:09:07 AM
I've been trying to tell a relative why he should take his retirement account from an "actively managed" portfolio at a brokerage (i.e. high-fees, no benefit) and instead just put it in Vanguard Target Retirement and literally increase his personal SWR by 50% (due to not having fees).

So now he's going to buy the Vanguard fund inside his "actively managed" high-fee portfolio--and pay the brokerage more to buy the fund instead of just getting it all for free at Vanguard.

A few years back, I'm at my father's funeral service and run into a cousin I have not seen for years. he tells me that he is with our favorite low cost fund company. I tell him that, (like a good stashe) I have a shit ton of cash parked there, and ask exactly what he does?  He then tells me that he is with a small division that discretely handles clients with very large portfolios. IIRC, he said there was a 2 million buy-in to get started. That part was interesting, but the amazing part was that he claimed that they have several high profile investing gurus, and high profile brokers in the program. Unfortunately, he couldn't give names, but he said that are either household names, or would be familiar to anybody who follows finance.
 
It's funny to think that the same hucksters who are selling their books, or stupid ideas like buying gold, since the economy will collapse any day now, are the ones that secretly invest in safe, well proven venues. The flip side of this coin is that many, if not a majority of the population, are like your relative, and convinced that you need an advisor who guesses at where to allocate you funds, and takes a huge portion of your money, since they are the "experts".
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on April 28, 2015, 06:45:09 AM
^That's an interesting story.  Not surprising I guess.

I had a student in my class last year who has a large investment firm named after his family. I know he is really the son of that family because a Dean told me so when he saw the guy was in my class. His family has donated enormous sums to our institution. Without the heads up from the Dean, which was in casual conversation over lunch, I wouldn't have guessed because he does nothing to suggest his enormous family wealth.

Anyway, one day in class I made a comment about just investing my money in low cost Vanguard index funds. I can't remember what the context was as I don't teach Econ or finance; it was more an off the cuff remark. Anyway, this guy broke into a big smile and gave me a positive nod.

Bottom line is the people running the other big investment firms know their practice is to take client money and put it in their own pockets. Basically anyone who studies investment even a little bit knows this.  Not surprised that our favorite firm has a long list of famous financial names in its customer base.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pigeon on April 28, 2015, 06:56:34 AM
My family is welcome to joke about our frugal ways all they want.  I just smile and nod.  It matters not a bit to me that their priorities are different than mine, so long as they aren't asking for loans, and they are not.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on April 28, 2015, 07:21:53 AM
I've been trying to tell a relative why he should take his retirement account from an "actively managed" portfolio at a brokerage (i.e. high-fees, no benefit) and instead just put it in Vanguard Target Retirement and literally increase his personal SWR by 50% (due to not having fees).

So now he's going to buy the Vanguard fund inside his "actively managed" high-fee portfolio--and pay the brokerage more to buy the fund instead of just getting it all for free at Vanguard.

A few years back, I'm at my father's funeral service and run into a cousin I have not seen for years. he tells me that he is with our favorite low cost fund company. I tell him that, (like a good stashe) I have a shit ton of cash parked there, and ask exactly what he does?  He then tells me that he is with a small division that discretely handles clients with very large portfolios. IIRC, he said there was a 2 million buy-in to get started. That part was interesting, but the amazing part was that he claimed that they have several high profile investing gurus, and high profile brokers in the program. Unfortunately, he couldn't give names, but he said that are either household names, or would be familiar to anybody who follows finance.
 
It's funny to think that the same hucksters who are selling their books, or stupid ideas like buying gold, since the economy will collapse any day now, are the ones that secretly invest in safe, well proven venues. The flip side of this coin is that many, if not a majority of the population, are like your relative, and convinced that you need an advisor who guesses at where to allocate you funds, and takes a huge portion of your money, since they are the "experts".

This isn't the first story along these lines that I've heard. Another was that all the salesmen (i.e. brokers and advisors) at the brokerages would put their client's funds in the high-fee actively managed funds, but then keep their personal money at Vanguard. They knew better than to buy what they were selling.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: merula on April 28, 2015, 08:09:13 AM
This isn't the first story along these lines that I've heard. Another was that all the salesmen (i.e. brokers and advisors) at the brokerages would put their client's funds in the high-fee actively managed funds, but then keep their personal money at Vanguard. They knew better than to buy what they were selling.

Not all of them. In an interesting juxtoposition of off- and on-topic, I have a relative who works at a high-profile financial services company, the kind with sales loads and insane management fees, the whole bit. She has repeatedly defended spending 5-10% of her (not all that high) gross income on their whole life product. In her mid-twenties with no health issues.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cookie78 on April 28, 2015, 08:51:58 AM
This isn't the first story along these lines that I've heard. Another was that all the salesmen (i.e. brokers and advisors) at the brokerages would put their client's funds in the high-fee actively managed funds, but then keep their personal money at Vanguard. They knew better than to buy what they were selling.

Not all of them. In an interesting juxtoposition of off- and on-topic, I have a relative who works at a high-profile financial services company, the kind with sales loads and insane management fees, the whole bit. She has repeatedly defended spending 5-10% of her (not all that high) gross income on their whole life product. In her mid-twenties with no health issues.

I've been following this thread with great interest and nothing to contribute. But this reminded me that I have a cousin who has this exact same issue! Her and her husband tried to sign me up too, years ago before I knew anything. But it all seemed too high pressure and limited and sketchy information that didn't quite add up to me, even with my limited knowledge at the time.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: BananaPants on April 28, 2015, 11:36:04 AM
My parents.  60 and 64 years old, have rented for nearly 20 years (since losing our house back in the mid-90s), and despite having a below-market rent and being empty nesters for over a decade, they have credit card debt and no savings.  Dad was laid off last year and his job search was wholly unsuccessful so he's essentially retired.  As a result, mom was going to retire at 65 and is now thinking it will be 70.  They have fairly large whole life policies on themselves but no long term care insurance.   It's a good thing there's Social Security and Medicare at some point because they're going to need it. 

There are a lot of little things that all pile up.  Mom's work is exactly 1 mile from their home but rather than walking, she drives to her assigned satellite parking lot (which she has to pay for!) and takes a shuttle bus from the parking lot to her office.   They each have a leased car even though now with dad essentially retired, they could easily be a one car household.  They belong to a gym that they go to maybe once a week.  They insist on paying for our kids' ballet classes and swim lessons.   For Easter they "only" spent $60-70 per grandkid (plus another $50 for me and DH).  We never see my mother where she DOESN'T give us something that she saw at the store that she thought we'd like (usually we wouldn't and then have to get rid of it).  They were tired of UVerse so they switched to a cable company and doubled the cost of TV/Internet/phone - but they get 300-something channels!   She stresses over money constantly now that they're down to one income, but she won't stop spending.  I think they figure that you can't teach an old dog new tricks and there's no point to doing anything different at their ages. 

They're going to have a rude awakening when the car leases are up or when their (very elderly) landlord dies and the heirs sell off all the rental properties, including the house that they rent.  I don't know what they'll do.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: hernandz on April 28, 2015, 02:00:26 PM
A while back she mentioned that she didn't take advantage of the employer 401k match, which was 200% of what you put in for up to 10% of salary - best I've ever heard of.

What company?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: EsLin on April 28, 2015, 06:39:18 PM
Oh, I have some stories!

My dear sister and I do not see eye to eye at all! She doesn't understand why I don't get brand name purses like Gucci or Prada. I typically use a simple bag I bought in Peru some time ago if anything. I just don't care about purses. It is truly shocking for her.

Shocking for me is that she tried to get me to buy $90 mascara from her. "It works out to only $30 a month on quality mascara! That's nothing!"   My mom ended up buying me the mascara (she is her own case but not as bad) though I did not request it. It doesn't even stay on well. She also spends about $1,800 a year on botox.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kris on April 28, 2015, 09:11:44 PM
Oh, I have some stories!

My dear sister and I do not see eye to eye at all! She doesn't understand why I don't get brand name purses like Gucci or Prada. I typically use a simple bag I bought in Peru some time ago if anything. I just don't care about purses. It is truly shocking for her.

Shocking for me is that she tried to get me to buy $90 mascara from her. "It works out to only $30 a month on quality mascara! That's nothing!"   My mom ended up buying me the mascara (she is her own case but not as bad) though I did not request it. It doesn't even stay on well. She also spends about $1,800 a year on botox.

Re the mascara: it's funny how some people really have it ingrained in them that if something is crazy expensive, it has to be awesome.  I have had many experiences of trying something of "superior" price/quality that was absolutely overrated. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on April 29, 2015, 09:40:33 AM
Oh, I have some stories!

My dear sister and I do not see eye to eye at all! She doesn't understand why I don't get brand name purses like Gucci or Prada. I typically use a simple bag I bought in Peru some time ago if anything. I just don't care about purses. It is truly shocking for her.

Shocking for me is that she tried to get me to buy $90 mascara from her. "It works out to only $30 a month on quality mascara! That's nothing!"   My mom ended up buying me the mascara (she is her own case but not as bad) though I did not request it. It doesn't even stay on well. She also spends about $1,800 a year on botox.

Re the mascara: it's funny how some people really have it ingrained in them that if something is crazy expensive, it has to be awesome.  I have had many experiences of trying something of "superior" price/quality that was absolutely overrated.

Wine is a perfectly good example of this as well. And the concept isn't random, it's been in the interests of corporations to sell higher priced products.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on April 29, 2015, 09:42:34 AM

My dear sister and I do not see eye to eye at all! She doesn't understand why I don't get brand name purses like Gucci or Prada. I typically use a simple bag I bought in Peru some time ago if anything. I just don't care about purses. It is truly shocking for her.

Hmm, buy an expensive designer bag just so people might think you're special cause you forked over a ton of cash (or more likely a credit card), or a bag that VERY few people in the continent have and might come with a cool story or bring back memories of your trip there....tough call?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iris lily on April 29, 2015, 09:48:38 AM
It was nice while it lasted but not a necessity. I don't think I will buy a refri with one the next time unless by then they all come with one. It seems like the more features the more to go wrong. Ugh!
this is exactly what my dad said about cars.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AH013 on April 29, 2015, 10:21:25 AM
Oh, I have some stories!

My dear sister and I do not see eye to eye at all! She doesn't understand why I don't get brand name purses like Gucci or Prada. I typically use a simple bag I bought in Peru some time ago if anything. I just don't care about purses. It is truly shocking for her.

Shocking for me is that she tried to get me to buy $90 mascara from her. "It works out to only $30 a month on quality mascara! That's nothing!"   My mom ended up buying me the mascara (she is her own case but not as bad) though I did not request it. It doesn't even stay on well. She also spends about $1,800 a year on botox.

Re the mascara: it's funny how some people really have it ingrained in them that if something is crazy expensive, it has to be awesome.  I have had many experiences of trying something of "superior" price/quality that was absolutely overrated.

Wine is a perfectly good example of this as well. And the concept isn't random, it's been in the interests of corporations to sell higher priced products.

This has been going on long before Thorstein Veblen noticed it over 115 years ago.  If you charge the most for a product relative to your competitors, it matters not whether the product is actually a higher quality product, just that it is the most expensive good in that category and thus appears exclusive and results in conspicuous consumption from status seeking consumers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Logic_Lady on April 29, 2015, 11:27:15 AM
I have always thought of my parents as pretty frugal. Growing up, they made me save a certain percentage of my allowance. They taught me to always pay off a credit card in full every month. They didn't waste money on designer clothes or huge TVs. They bought only used cars, with cash.

So when I recently sat down to talk to them about their retirement plans, I got a big shock. The first question I asked was what their yearly expenses are, since that determines how much money they will need. My mom's response?

"I don't know."

I stared at her in total shock! How is that even possible? My mom manages the family's finances. She keeps track of bills and pays them on time. The vast majority of expenses are made through checks, credit cards or bank transfers--all easily trackable.  I tried again.

"Well, how much do you guys spend each month?"

"Everything your dad makes," she replies.

WTF? This isn't even true, since I know they save money in their IRAs. I pointed this out and I guess she is including IRA contributions in the spending. I tried to encourage her to keep track of expenses, told her about Mint, but she just "didn't want to think about it."

They are also now spending $20K on landscaping. Admittedly this is not actually a waste of money--it will add to the value of the house and the new landscaping plan will save water. But they will only get that money back when they actually sell the house. I have no idea where they are getting the money for the landscaping from.

I am still totally astonished as I write this. I always thought of my parents as so responsible! The only saving grace is that at least they don't spend more than my dad makes. Based on the rough numbers she gave me, between my dad's pension, SS, the soon-to-be-paid-off house and yearly max IRA contributions they will be OK by traditional retirement age--IF they keep expenses to a reasonable level. But how can they keep expenses to a reasonable level if they don't know how much they spend??? Not to mention my dad has health problems. I am very concerned about what will happen if he is unable to work.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kris on April 29, 2015, 01:17:45 PM
Oh, I have some stories!

My dear sister and I do not see eye to eye at all! She doesn't understand why I don't get brand name purses like Gucci or Prada. I typically use a simple bag I bought in Peru some time ago if anything. I just don't care about purses. It is truly shocking for her.

Shocking for me is that she tried to get me to buy $90 mascara from her. "It works out to only $30 a month on quality mascara! That's nothing!"   My mom ended up buying me the mascara (she is her own case but not as bad) though I did not request it. It doesn't even stay on well. She also spends about $1,800 a year on botox.

Re the mascara: it's funny how some people really have it ingrained in them that if something is crazy expensive, it has to be awesome.  I have had many experiences of trying something of "superior" price/quality that was absolutely overrated.

Wine is a perfectly good example of this as well. And the concept isn't random, it's been in the interests of corporations to sell higher priced products.

This has been going on long before Thorstein Veblen noticed it over 115 years ago.  If you charge the most for a product relative to your competitors, it matters not whether the product is actually a higher quality product, just that it is the most expensive good in that category and thus appears exclusive and results in conspicuous consumption from status seeking consumers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Right, I know all that.  I'm just still surprised that so many people literally can consume two products of radically different prices and can't actually distinguish that the quality of the more expensive one is actually not better than the other one. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sibley on April 29, 2015, 02:38:20 PM
Right, I know all that.  I'm just still surprised that so many people literally can consume two products of radically different prices and can't actually distinguish that the quality of the more expensive one is actually not better than the other one.

That's how companies get you to spend more money on brand name than generic. Most of the time, there's no difference.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LiveLean on April 29, 2015, 05:02:57 PM
I love how Costco often copies the exact ingredients of many food and beverage products it sells under its Kirkland Signature brand for a fraction of the price.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kris on April 29, 2015, 05:06:10 PM
I love how Costco often copies the exact ingredients of many food and beverage products it sells under its Kirkland Signature brand for a fraction of the price.

Yeah, that's how I learned to love the Costco.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zsmith on April 29, 2015, 05:58:30 PM
After finding out we cut cable my FIL made the comment "Got rid of cable. Why are you being so cheap? You need to live a little."

Somehow he considers sitting around watching cable living.

Ha my dad said the same thing.

We are expecting a baby and living in a one-bedroom condo, where we live for very cheap (granted it's still a bit underwater, but all the more reason to stay). My inlaws actually offered to buy/rent another place so we could have more space, and let us know we could rent it from them or who knows just live there. We told them thanks, but no thanks. If we wanted more space, we would find a place with more space, but we like our one bedroom condo for now.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on April 29, 2015, 06:12:57 PM
We are expecting a baby and living in a one-bedroom condo...

A BABY!  Wow.  You totally need a 6 bedroom house in the suburbs (at least 3500 square feet), so you have room to grow, and at least a 3 car garage that will fit the SUV you absolutely have to buy to keep a baby safe!  *nodnod*  You know, you can deduct mortgage interest on your taxes!  *nodnod*

*sigh*

I've been fighting the "Why don't you buy a house now?" questions from my dad for about a decade, give or take.  He's still of the "Housing is a wise investment and besides you can always sell it for more than you paid so of course it's wise to buy a house as soon as possible" school of thought.  Usually then pointing out the interest deduction as well, as though this makes an otherwise unwise decision wise.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Paul der Krake on April 29, 2015, 06:50:09 PM
After finding out we cut cable my FIL made the comment "Got rid of cable. Why are you being so cheap? You need to live a little."

Somehow he considers sitting around watching cable living.

Ha my dad said the same thing.

We are expecting a baby and living in a one-bedroom condo, where we live for very cheap (granted it's still a bit underwater, but all the more reason to stay). My inlaws actually offered to buy/rent another place so we could have more space, and let us know we could rent it from them or who knows just live there. We told them thanks, but no thanks. If we wanted more space, we would find a place with more space, but we like our one bedroom condo for now.
Living in a small dwelling is a key strategy of mine to keep friends and family visits to a reasonable minimum. The savings are just icing on the cake.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: bzzzt on April 29, 2015, 08:18:09 PM
A BABY!  Wow..

I've been fighting the "Why don't you buy a house now?" questions from my dad for about a decade, give or take.  He's still of the "Housing is a wise investment and besides you can always sell it for more than you paid so of course it's wise to buy a house as soon as possible" school of thought.  Usually then pointing out the interest deduction as well, as though this makes an otherwise unwise decision wise.

Between buying a house and having a baby in the last two years, I've realized that most people have pretty close to zero comprehension on taxes or interest.

"You'll get a lot back on your taxes due to the mortgage interest", "You'll get a ton back now that you have a baby!", etc.

Hey dummies, the reason you get lots of money back is because you have too much withheld in the first place! There's nothing to return if you don't give them too much to begin with! As an older friend once said to me when I asked him why he didn't have a mortgage when he could write off the interest: "Why would I want to give the bank $100 just to get $20 back from Uncle Sam?"
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on April 29, 2015, 08:28:01 PM
"Why would I want to give the bank $100 just to get $20 back from Uncle Sam?"

Well, that's why you pay it on a rewards card!  Duh!  Spend your way to prosperity!  Or... um.  Something.  *sigh*

I've run into that a lot as well.  Most people were horrified when I mentioned that I owed around $7k in taxes this year.  I would have been happier having actually gotten stuff right on (my wife's income wasn't taxed as though we were both working), but I'd far rather owe money than give the government an interest free loan.

Another thing I've gotten (actually, also from my dad) is "You can buy that as a business expense and write it off on taxes!"  Same thing... spending $1000 I don't need to spend to save $300 is a bit silly...

I'm fairly certain some people don't understand the difference between tax deductions and tax credits.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on April 30, 2015, 07:35:52 AM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."

Sigh
. I'm afraid if I don't tell her something specific to get me, I'm going to wind up with more crap that is going to go directly to the donate pile. But there is literally nothing that I want or need for myself. And I don't think telling her to get me some toothbrush head replacements would go over very well.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: TheOldestYoungMan on April 30, 2015, 07:45:23 AM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."

Sigh
. I'm afraid if I don't tell her something specific to get me, I'm going to wind up with more crap that is going to go directly to the donate pile. But there is literally nothing that I want or need for myself. And I don't think telling her to get me some toothbrush head replacements would go over very well.

Amazon/Visa gift cards.  Baked goods.  I always ask for my favorite dish she used to make when I was a kid.  Your mom is not an annoyance!  It is your responsibility to scour the brain for some type of consumable you do use that she won't think of as a ridiculous gift.

For emergency use only:  "How about a nice framed picture of you?"

I use that on my sisters all the time.  Bonus, they feel guilt for being behind on the picture obligation (I don't impose the obligation, society imposes the obligation.)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on April 30, 2015, 07:48:31 AM
Oooh, I like the Amazon/Visa gift cards idea! I thought about a gift card to a local spa for a pedicure, since that's something I do enjoy but am no longer willing to pay for myself. I'll have to ponder that some more...



Amazon/Visa gift cards.  Baked goods.  I always ask for my favorite dish she used to make when I was a kid.  Your mom is not an annoyance!  It is your responsibility to scour the brain for some type of consumable you do use that she won't think of as a ridiculous gift.

For emergency use only:  "How about a nice framed picture of you?"

I use that on my sisters all the time.  Bonus, they feel guilt for being behind on the picture obligation (I don't impose the obligation, society imposes the obligation.)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Lynne on April 30, 2015, 07:59:09 AM
I'm afraid if I don't tell her something specific to get me, I'm going to wind up with more crap that is going to go directly to the donate pile. But there is literally nothing that I want or need for myself. And I don't think telling her to get me some toothbrush head replacements would go over very well.

Birthday party food?  I don't know if she'd go for that, but at least it's consumable...

I hate getting stuff as presents as well.  Mostly I've trained people out of it, but it still crops up.  I do appreciate the thought, and occasionally I even like the present, but usually it's just...more stuff, ugh.  (And I have a hard time donating presents because someone I care about spent money on them, and that's harder to write off than if I'd spent the money myself.  I need to get over that.)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on April 30, 2015, 08:10:04 AM
Oooh, I like the Amazon/Visa gift cards idea! I thought about a gift card to a local spa for a pedicure, since that's something I do enjoy but am no longer willing to pay for myself. I'll have to ponder that some more...



Amazon/Visa gift cards.  Baked goods.  I always ask for my favorite dish she used to make when I was a kid.  Your mom is not an annoyance!  It is your responsibility to scour the brain for some type of consumable you do use that she won't think of as a ridiculous gift.

For emergency use only:  "How about a nice framed picture of you?"

I use that on my sisters all the time.  Bonus, they feel guilt for being behind on the picture obligation (I don't impose the obligation, society imposes the obligation.)

How much does your mom spend on you? Is it a $50 gift, or a $400 gift? If the latter, do the pedicure thing. Treat yo' self. If it is a lot more, just do the amazon/visa thing. Or a gas card. Or a Costco gift card. Or a nice roast duck. Everybody loves roast duck.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on April 30, 2015, 10:53:29 AM

How much does your mom spend on you? Is it a $50 gift, or a $400 gift? If the latter, do the pedicure thing. Treat yo' self. If it is a lot more, just do the amazon/visa thing. Or a gas card. Or a Costco gift card. Or a nice roast duck. Everybody loves roast duck.

Lol - roast duck. I don't know the exact amount she spends, but it's more like the former than the latter. I went with the spa/pedicure thing. Hopefully that will work!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Apples on May 01, 2015, 01:47:04 PM
Yes!  Get something for an experience somewhere.  Even just movie or restaurant gift cards to places you haven't been.  Or membership to a theater/museum/park near you.  Etc.  Or a magazine.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: shelivesthedream on May 02, 2015, 03:48:51 AM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."

Sigh
. I'm afraid if I don't tell her something specific to get me, I'm going to wind up with more crap that is going to go directly to the donate pile. But there is literally nothing that I want or need for myself. And I don't think telling her to get me some toothbrush head replacements would go over very well.

If in doubt, I usually ask for fancy toiletries (because I'll always need soap and it seems 'gifty') or expensive socks (because I'll always get through socks eventually).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: RunHappy on May 02, 2015, 08:08:22 AM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."

Sigh
. I'm afraid if I don't tell her something specific to get me, I'm going to wind up with more crap that is going to go directly to the donate pile. But there is literally nothing that I want or need for myself. And I don't think telling her to get me some toothbrush head replacements would go over very well.

If in doubt, I usually ask for fancy toiletries (because I'll always need soap and it seems 'gifty') or expensive socks (because I'll always get through socks eventually).

Same here.  I will always be able to use more soaps and nicely scented lotions.  Sheets and towels are also good too. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: force majeure on May 03, 2015, 02:29:21 PM
Yeah, I met with an old friend today. Told him about my interest in early retirement and a frugal lifestyle. He laughed at me, good luck with that, he said, and finding any woman interested in living frugally. He told me it would take a huge amount of money to fund that, with interest rates at zero. I made no reply, and confirms my thoughts, you cant convert people to this way of thinking.
 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: phillyvalue on May 03, 2015, 02:36:22 PM
Yeah, I met with an old friend today. Told him about my interest in early retirement and a frugal lifestyle. He laughed at me, good luck with that, he said, and finding any woman interested in living frugally. He told me it would take a huge amount of money to fund that, with interest rates at zero. I made no reply, and confirms my thoughts, you cant convert people to this way of thinking.

Well, without making any value judgment either way, I'd say he is essentially right on both points. First, if you live very frugally as some on this site do, you are no doubt restricting the number of people you will be able to associate with, whether as friends or partners. You can argue that you are restricting the number of people to those who are compatible with you, and that's probably true, but overall it makes the process harder than if you were a "normal" person. On the second point, no doubt IMO it's going to be a rough time going forward for those of us counting on investing in stocks for retirement. I'm sure stocks will do OK over a long term time horizon, but many people I think are anchored to the returns we've seen over the past 30 years or so, which likely wont be repeated.

Doesn't mean anyone should abandon this lifestyle, but those are two legitimate issues.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: purplish on May 03, 2015, 06:41:38 PM
I always tell family my preference for store gift cards for birthdays and Chanukah/Christmas (after they ask me what to get me, I don't demand anything).  I know if I said "nothing" my dad would just get me something really unnecessary and would need to return it lol.  This works out because I tend to say places that sell a variety of things, that way I could spend it on clothes, shoes, home goods, etc.  He doesn't always listen, but I would say I get a gift card once a year, which essentially fully fund wardrobe updates for the year.  Well, or more, I tend to keep the cards sitting around forever sometimes, cause I just don't feel like getting anything.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on May 03, 2015, 07:00:55 PM
There are places online you can sell gift cards...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Rubic on May 03, 2015, 08:02:51 PM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."


Ask her for the most anti-Mustachian item that you secretly desire in your heart of hearts ... out with it ... you know you want it ...

Last Christmas my parents gave me a Happy Hacker Pro (tm) keyboard:  http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Professional2-Black/dp/B000EXZ0VC/
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Rubic on May 03, 2015, 08:08:57 PM
There are places online you can sell gift cards...

A couple years ago my cousin bought me an pricey gift card at Dick's Sporting's Goods.

I literally couldn't find a single item to purchase, so I went through selling it online and recuping 95% of its value!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on May 04, 2015, 12:50:28 PM
If in doubt, I usually ask for fancy toiletries (because I'll always need soap and it seems 'gifty') or expensive socks (because I'll always get through socks eventually).

I never thought of fancy toiletries. I do use soap on a daily basis. :-) OH, the socks. The horror of the socks. For about 10 years in a row, my mother gave me fuzzy socks for Christmas. Multiple pairs a year. Seriously, if I had kept them all, I would likely now have about 100 PAIRS of fuzzy socks in my drawers. That and Christmas mugs. After begging and pleading with her to please stop it with the socks and the mugs, she did. This year, she gave me one pair of socks as a joke. I told her it wasn't funny.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: oldmannickels on May 04, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
My sister's boyfriend has a brother that is really bad with money. He does a lot of stupid things that I get to hear about.

The last one was that he bought a new truck for $30k and thought that he had worked it out so he had a $250 payment. He couldn't figure out why a bill collector was calling until he realized that it was $250 twice monthly. He bounced a check to his parents and missed a utility payment so the bill collectors have also been calling grandma at the nursing home since he lives in her house.


Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: DTaggart on May 04, 2015, 02:29:09 PM
Several years ago my brother bought a used Suburban, to add to the two perfectly good vehicles he already owned. Now he did get a good price on it and did some work on his own to fix it up, so it wasn't like he went out and spent $30k on a brand new one, but still - gas isn't exactly free. I asked him what he needed another vehicle, and so large, for. His reason? He has two kids, and like many siblings, they bicker. Apparently long car rides can only be survived by providing each child with their own entire row of seats.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 04, 2015, 05:13:33 PM
Several years ago my brother bought a used Suburban, to add to the two perfectly good vehicles he already owned. Now he did get a good price on it and did some work on his own to fix it up, so it wasn't like he went out and spent $30k on a brand new one, but still - gas isn't exactly free. I asked him what he needed another vehicle, and so large, for. His reason? He has two kids, and like many siblings, they bicker. Apparently long car rides can only be survived by providing each child with their own entire row of seats.

2 burlap sacks will fix that much cheaper.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: DTaggart on May 04, 2015, 05:41:11 PM
Several years ago my brother bought a used Suburban, to add to the two perfectly good vehicles he already owned. Now he did get a good price on it and did some work on his own to fix it up, so it wasn't like he went out and spent $30k on a brand new one, but still - gas isn't exactly free. I asked him what he needed another vehicle, and so large, for. His reason? He has two kids, and like many siblings, they bicker. Apparently long car rides can only be survived by providing each child with their own entire row of seats.

2 burlap sacks will fix that much cheaper.

I know, right? ;) All I know is my two dogs share the backseat of our Honda Fit just fine!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sibley on May 05, 2015, 10:18:53 AM
Several years ago my brother bought a used Suburban, to add to the two perfectly good vehicles he already owned. Now he did get a good price on it and did some work on his own to fix it up, so it wasn't like he went out and spent $30k on a brand new one, but still - gas isn't exactly free. I asked him what he needed another vehicle, and so large, for. His reason? He has two kids, and like many siblings, they bicker. Apparently long car rides can only be survived by providing each child with their own entire row of seats.

2 burlap sacks will fix that much cheaper.

I know, right? ;) All I know is my two dogs share the backseat of our Honda Fit just fine!

Being an actual parent would be helpful too. You know, the kind that has behavior expectations and enforces them.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Ashyukun on May 05, 2015, 11:54:04 AM
Several years ago my brother bought a used Suburban, to add to the two perfectly good vehicles he already owned. Now he did get a good price on it and did some work on his own to fix it up, so it wasn't like he went out and spent $30k on a brand new one, but still - gas isn't exactly free. I asked him what he needed another vehicle, and so large, for. His reason? He has two kids, and like many siblings, they bicker. Apparently long car rides can only be survived by providing each child with their own entire row of seats.

2 burlap sacks will fix that much cheaper.

I know, right? ;) All I know is my two dogs share the backseat of our Honda Fit just fine!

Being an actual parent would be helpful too. You know, the kind that has behavior expectations and enforces them.

I'd you would only really need a sedan (or coupe with a decent back seat) and a trunk. Whichever child can behave the best gets to ride in the back seat- the other has to ride in the trunk. ;P
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on May 05, 2015, 12:14:50 PM
Several years ago my brother bought a used Suburban, to add to the two perfectly good vehicles he already owned. Now he did get a good price on it and did some work on his own to fix it up, so it wasn't like he went out and spent $30k on a brand new one, but still - gas isn't exactly free. I asked him what he needed another vehicle, and so large, for. His reason? He has two kids, and like many siblings, they bicker. Apparently long car rides can only be survived by providing each child with their own entire row of seats.

2 burlap sacks will fix that much cheaper.

I know, right? ;) All I know is my two dogs share the backseat of our Honda Fit just fine!

Being an actual parent would be helpful too. You know, the kind that has behavior expectations and enforces them.

I'd you would only really need a sedan (or coupe with a decent back seat) and a trunk. Whichever child can behave the best gets to ride in the back seat- the other has to ride in the trunk. ;P

"Whoever is better behaved gets to ride in the El Camino. The other guy goes back in time to before he was born!"

(Hi Ash--I assume this is the same dork from that other site?)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LiveLean on May 05, 2015, 02:24:45 PM
Wife's sister called yesterday to tell her they were replacing the granite counter tops in their five-year-old, former model home...with different granite. Boy, you talk about home improvements in terms of percentage you'll get back in resale. I'd put this one at zero.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Ashyukun on May 05, 2015, 03:33:52 PM
Several years ago my brother bought a used Suburban, to add to the two perfectly good vehicles he already owned. Now he did get a good price on it and did some work on his own to fix it up, so it wasn't like he went out and spent $30k on a brand new one, but still - gas isn't exactly free. I asked him what he needed another vehicle, and so large, for. His reason? He has two kids, and like many siblings, they bicker. Apparently long car rides can only be survived by providing each child with their own entire row of seats.

2 burlap sacks will fix that much cheaper.

I know, right? ;) All I know is my two dogs share the backseat of our Honda Fit just fine!

Being an actual parent would be helpful too. You know, the kind that has behavior expectations and enforces them.

I'd you would only really need a sedan (or coupe with a decent back seat) and a trunk. Whichever child can behave the best gets to ride in the back seat- the other has to ride in the trunk. ;P

"Whoever is better behaved gets to ride in the El Camino. The other guy goes back in time to before he was born!"

(Hi Ash--I assume this is the same dork from that other site?)

Hey now, at the moment we have SWMBO's Mariner & I still have the Prius, both of which have back seats- though a misbehaving child would likely lose to our dog when it comes to which gets the back seat and which gets to ride in the 'way back'. And frankly as a kid I'd have been jockeying FOR riding in the back of the Elky (and I have some spare seats that will be set up in the bed so we can back it in at a Drive-In Theater and watch the movie). :P

And yes, you're absolutely correct. ;P
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on May 05, 2015, 03:54:41 PM
Wife's sister called yesterday to tell her they were replacing the granite counter tops in their five-year-old, former model home...with different granite. Boy, you talk about home improvements in terms of percentage you'll get back in resale. I'd put this one at zero.

But they had to replace that dated granite with this summer's new granite colors!

After all, nothing says the 1990s like ubatuba, and what would people like the cat sitter and the maids think?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 05, 2015, 05:07:47 PM
Wife's sister called yesterday to tell her they were replacing the granite counter tops in their five-year-old, former model home...with different granite. Boy, you talk about home improvements in terms of percentage you'll get back in resale. I'd put this one at zero.

But they had to replace that dated granite with this summer's new granite colors!

After all, nothing says the 1990s like ubatuba, and what would people like the cat sitter and the maids think?

Woof. talk about waste.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tofuchampion on May 05, 2015, 08:08:56 PM
Just found out my sister is pregnant with her 3rd kid. The last one is only 10 months old. She's a stay-at-home mom, and idk what her husband makes, but it's very little. Medicaid paid for her prenatal care & delivery last time, and I'm pretty sure they're getting food stamps. I don't know wtf they were thinking.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 05, 2015, 09:04:04 PM
Just found out my sister is pregnant with her 3rd kid. The last one is only 10 months old. She's a stay-at-home mom, and idk what her husband makes, but it's very little. Medicaid paid for her prenatal care & delivery last time, and I'm pretty sure they're getting food stamps. I don't know wtf they were thinking.

You should say something.
I find it hard to believe they haven't realized they shouldn't. But then they did.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tofuchampion on May 05, 2015, 10:18:32 PM
Just found out my sister is pregnant with her 3rd kid. The last one is only 10 months old. She's a stay-at-home mom, and idk what her husband makes, but it's very little. Medicaid paid for her prenatal care & delivery last time, and I'm pretty sure they're getting food stamps. I don't know wtf they were thinking.

You should say something.
I find it hard to believe they haven't realized they shouldn't. But then they did.

What can I say? What's done is done. She is not the type to take advice well, anyway - gets very defensive and angry, very quickly. They are religious and firmly in the "god will provide" camp.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 06, 2015, 12:00:05 AM
I come from a family where Gpa and Gma were very religious. They had 12 children. My father, the 3rd of 12 made sure I was an only child so that he was sure he could provide. He didn't want me to lack in education, time, or love as he did when he was a child. You can tell them that.

Prayer doesn't deliver money, food, diapers, higher education, or time for parenting. Nor does it erase regret.  If she doesn't take advice well, I advise you to wash your hands of involvement for your sanity.

Feel free to let it be known that I am upset with them for sucking up my tax dollars for their own selfish family expansion. I believe in freedom of religion, but when it comes to handing out welfare to people with more than 1 child already, I lean toward sterilization. Their freedom of religion shouldn't impose on my freedom from excessive taxation.

It sounds like she is too stupid and invested in her own little selfish world view to see that she depends on other PEOPLE, not GOD to provide. The days of single income working class multiple children households living comfortably are over. My grandfather could do it in the 50s but now that the cost to raise a child is near 200k, people need to be more responsible.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Emilyngh on May 06, 2015, 04:27:31 AM

Feel free to let it be known that I am upset with them for sucking up my tax dollars for their own selfish family expansion. I believe in freedom of religion, but when it comes to handing out welfare to people with more than 1 child already, I lean toward sterilization. Their freedom of religion shouldn't impose on my freedom from excessive taxation.

It sounds like she is too stupid and invested in her own little selfish world view to see that she depends on other PEOPLE, not GOD to provide. The days of single income working class multiple children households living comfortably are over. My grandfather could do it in the 50s but now that the cost to raise a child is near 200k, people need to be more responsible.

Yeah, really bad idea.   Telling someone who is expecting a child anything other than congratulations is a super dick move, regardless of how judgy you are of their lifestyle.

Also, it absolutely does not take nearly $200k to raise a child.   Absolutely not.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 06, 2015, 08:37:03 AM
Sorry, Emily, I disagree.

Being pregnant doesn't excuse you from the harsh reality of life. Seems like they are on their way to another Medicaid funded child. If they are on Medicaid, chances are they are on a food assistance program as well. AND THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE ANOTHER. It's not a 'miracle of god', it's unprotected sex without birth control. It is a choice, whether based on religion, carelessness, or outright stupidity. Sometimes feelings need to be hurt. If it makes me a dick, so be it. HAVING KIDS ON PUBLIC ASSISTANCE IS NEVER OKAY. You're putting your own selfish wants "I want a[nother] child." ahead of the actual needs of the child[ren] [you already have].

Bottom line here is that the parents want a certain lifestyle. One free of birth control, and full of Jesus and a large family of children. That is a DESIRE. Not a RIGHT. I want 6 duplexes, but guess who has to save and work and pay for it? ME. Children should be no different. Regardless of your religious or political affiliation, I fail to see how anyone can be okay with bringing a child into the world knowing you will not be able to provide for it.

regarding the dollar figure, seems it has gone up recently:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=average%20cost%20to%20raise%20a%20child

$245k now. Granted, that is on a non-MMM style upbringing, but these people don't sound smart enough to get with the program any time soon, so I'm going to assume they'll just pray for everything they need... but doesn't god want you to help yourself before he helps you?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: RunHappy on May 06, 2015, 09:02:59 AM
Sorry, Emily, I disagree.

Being pregnant doesn't excuse you from the harsh reality of life. Seems like they are on their way to another Medicaid funded child. If they are on Medicaid, chances are they are on a food assistance program as well. AND THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE ANOTHER. It's not a 'miracle of god', it's unprotected sex without birth control. It is a choice, whether based on religion, carelessness, or outright stupidity. Sometimes feelings need to be hurt. If it makes me a dick, so be it. HAVING KIDS ON PUBLIC ASSISTANCE IS NEVER OKAY. You're putting your own selfish wants "I want a[nother] child." ahead of the actual needs of the child[ren] [you already have].

Bottom line here is that the parents want a certain lifestyle. One free of birth control, and full of Jesus and a large family of children. That is a DESIRE. Not a RIGHT. I want 6 duplexes, but guess who has to save and work and pay for it? ME. Children should be no different. Regardless of your religious or political affiliation, I fail to see how anyone can be okay with bringing a child into the world knowing you will not be able to provide for it.

regarding the dollar figure, seems it has gone up recently:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=average%20cost%20to%20raise%20a%20child

$245k now. Granted, that is on a non-MMM style upbringing, but these people don't sound smart enough to get with the program any time soon, so I'm going to assume they'll just pray for everything they need... but doesn't god want you to help yourself before he helps you?

I agree with Emily. It is not the siblings place to tell them they are wrong.  The sister is already pregnant, they did not ask the advice or opinion of anyone else  before conceiving.  The deed is done.  Unless you are suggesting forced sterilization on certain groups of people, they are free to have as many children (or not) as they want.

Edit:  The sibling airing their anger to the one already pregnant is only going to create resentment and alienation among the family.  This is one of those times to keep your opinions to yourself (when dealing with family).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 06, 2015, 09:15:20 AM
They're free to. And i should be free to not pay for their freedom of choice.
They didn't ask any advice. They probably should have.
I absolutely think sterilization should be an option here. Tie your tubes or be cut off from medicaid. Public assistance is to get you back on your feet, not a lifelong handout to pay for your poor decisions.

You don't have kids intentionally if you can't afford it. Married, churchy, non-birth control using people ABSOLUTELY know what will happen if they continue to have sex. This child is a CHOICE. A CHOICE that they KNEW they couldn't afford. To me, this is just as disgusting as neglect.

It absolutely is her place to tell them they are wrong. They need to stop burying their heads in the sand and provide for what they have before they accept the responsibility for more.  Who better to bring that up than someone that loves them? It sounds like a tough conversation, but one that i have had with 2 friends and 1 cousin.

While there's nothing that can be done legally to stop them from continuing, I feel it is morally disgusting and irresponsible. Do you see it any other way ?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: cripzychiken on May 06, 2015, 10:13:03 AM
My turn to add to these lovely stories.

Mom: We have a new baby (first grandkid in a large family).  So for baby's 1st MONTH birthday (don't get me started), she gets him 2 new outfits - price tags still on, $15/each. Knowing she likes buying gifts but sucks with money, I show her the local used baby clothes store - the only place I will shop for baby clothes (even for other people's kids).  She loves it gets him another $10 worth of outfits that day (face-palm).  For the 2nd month birthday (again, not me or wife doing/wanting this) we get a box full of outfits - probably 40-50 pieces, total spent was "only $40".  Well... still too much, but at least she is understanding things. 3 month birthday - at this point, we have probably 75 outfits from all sources, 1/2 of which he has never worn, she gets him 3 brand new outfits, $15/each again.  Told me it was too much time to shop at the used baby clothes store (which is closer to her house than big baby box store). 

Baby outgrows the outfits before he can wear them, Mom gets pissed when we return the outfits for store credit (our normal thing when we get tagged gifts - then buy diapers).

This is the same lady who has her ENTIRE RETIREMENT savings of $3,500 (at age 59) in a savings account that gets 0.1% interest (she has a loan of $10k at 9.9% at the same bank).  Can't show her where/how my $50k+ retirement is sitting (at age 26) because then she would ask for a loan since "I won't need the money for like 30 years".

Dad: he is just as great with money.  Cashed in on his pension at 55 - as soon as he could, at a full 25% of its value, a whopping $247/month - less than the electric bill on their 4/3 house (in case all 3 kids decide to come home at once - which has happened a grand total of 0 times in the 10 years they've rented this house - yes renting a 4/3).  He also quit his job 5 years ago to run his own business.  At the time he had 15-20 clients and it made sense.  In those 5 years, he's down to 3 customers and doesn't see the need to get a website to advertise his service based business, he still has an ad in the phonebook though, since that worked when he started his side job back in 1985.  He has no idea why he can't get more clients.

*ranting/typing this up, actually makes me feel better about it.  I mean, I'm laughing like an idiot right now at the stupidity I come from.  Not sure when these laughs will turn to tears.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: RunHappy on May 06, 2015, 10:31:22 AM

While there's nothing that can be done legally to stop them from continuing, I feel it is morally disgusting and irresponsible. Do you see it any other way ?

What is telling someone you find them morally disgusting and irresponsible going to accomplish?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: frugalparagon on May 06, 2015, 10:43:02 AM
Do we know for sure that the family with the 3rd child got pregnant on purpose? They could have been using non-permanent birth control.

Even IUDs or vasectomies fail sometimes. Many people who get pregnant accidentally keep the baby--I would never throw stones at someone for not having an abortion.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 06, 2015, 01:59:16 PM

While there's nothing that can be done legally to stop them from continuing, I feel it is morally disgusting and irresponsible. Do you see it any other way ?

What is telling someone you find them morally disgusting and irresponsible going to accomplish?

Maybe it will shake them to the fact that there are other worldviews in existance than their own. They certainly aren't going to think of it on their own.


Quote from: RunHappy
Do we know for sure that the family with the 3rd child got pregnant on purpose? They could have been using non-permanent birth control.

Even IUDs or vasectomies fail sometimes. Many people who get pregnant accidentally keep the baby--I would never throw stones at someone for not having an abortion.
We do not. I am making a presumption based on my own family. If I was wrong, and they were attempting to prevent having more kids they couldn't afford, I would backpedal all of it.  But... having seen this multiple times in my life, I feel safe labeling them as the "we don't try or try not to, we just let God decide".

I would never (despite being pro-choice) judge someone for not having an abortion; I was never suggesting that, but that since they are financially destitute, they should be taking proactive steps to ensure they don't bring another child they can't afford into the world.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tofuchampion on May 09, 2015, 12:03:57 PM
I don't think it was intentional. It might be worth saying that birth control pills are contraindicated for her because we have a family history of blood clots. I have an IUD, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were just using condoms or something.

I don't think of her as stupid and selfish, just naive. She also lets her husband make all the decisions (more religion there, yay!), and he is absolutely stupid and selfish.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Shropskr on May 11, 2015, 12:16:53 AM
We fired in January.  My parents once again.  You don't have enough money in today's dollars you maybe could do it on a million but with inflation it would take four.  Whatever .... that's what index funds do silly. Adjust for inflation.

Plus were moving.  first thing she said.  Make sure the new house has room for my RV so I can come see you.  She's come exactly zero times with the RV in ten years to the current house.  No I don't think an RV slot for you is the first thing on my house hunting requirements. 

Maybe this is why she thinks I need four million dollars to retire.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on May 11, 2015, 09:22:37 AM
We fired in January.  My parents once again.  You don't have enough money in today's dollars you maybe could do it on a million but with inflation it would take four.  Whatever .... that's what index funds do silly. Adjust for inflation.

Plus were moving.  first thing she said.  Make sure the new house has room for my RV so I can come see you.  She's come exactly zero times with the RV in ten years to the current house.  No I don't think an RV slot for you is the first thing on my house hunting requirements. 

Maybe this is why she thinks I need four million dollars to retire.
Mustachians go out every day and disprove through their actions what people think is true about money, and happiness, and many other things.

How long do you think you'll have to stay FIREd before the living proof becomes obvious enough that they admit it?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 16, 2015, 10:36:14 AM
A relative, who lives somewhere it doesn't rain, just bought a raincoat for $300. It was a great deal because it was on sale from $600.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on May 16, 2015, 10:51:11 AM
Wow!!! She "saved" $300!!!

You know, with deals like that, the more you spend, the more you save!!!

**sigh**

I have to admit, whoever first figured that phrase out was a marketing genius.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 16, 2015, 12:08:49 PM
Another relative bought a polo shirt in person for $110. He didn't bother trying it on. It didn't fit. It wasn't returned.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 20, 2015, 07:47:45 PM
Not financial related, but worth a post:

A relative was standing in a subway station, underground, having taken a super long escalator down about 5 stories, and said "The Metro doesn't go underground".
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: irishbear99 on May 20, 2015, 08:41:21 PM
After all these years, MLM has finally found its way into my family. :(

Sis-in-law started with a company (that shall remain nameless for anonimity's sake) a few months ago. Surprisingly, she hasnt been pushy at all. She's offered me samples exactly once, and apart from that, any time we talk about her new business it's simply talking about work, the same way I would talk about a day at my work. Sounds as good as one can expect from MLM, right?

Cue my mother, who has decided she's going to become a part of SIL's "team", and is now bugging me to become part of her "team." For a product I don't use. Despite the fact I have a full-time, successful career that takes up most of my free time. Despite the fact I've never expressed an interest in sales.

She wanted to make sure she asked me first. You know, so she can exploit money from me instead of SIL. I'm tempted to tell SIL just to stir a little drama. I've resisted so far.

So far...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tofuchampion on May 20, 2015, 10:39:52 PM
I don't think it was intentional. It might be worth saying that birth control pills are contraindicated for her because we have a family history of blood clots. I have an IUD, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were just using condoms or something.

I don't think of her as stupid and selfish, just naive. She also lets her husband make all the decisions (more religion there, yay!), and he is absolutely stupid and selfish.

Definitely not intentional! Turns out she's about 5 months along and just found out. So there's that.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Squirrel away on May 21, 2015, 03:40:43 AM
OMG, I've been laughing at some of these stories.:) I gnash my teeth at the behaviour of some other people I know.

My husband's sibling has been given two big "loans" (that she never paid back) from their father twice now and she is still in debt. The father is now paying for her to live in her house, paying off her normal monthly bills and credit card bills. She is in her mid fifties.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: gogo419 on May 21, 2015, 08:38:10 AM
After all these years, MLM has finally found its way into my family. :(

Sis-in-law started with a company (that shall remain nameless for anonimity's sake) a few months ago. Surprisingly, she hasnt been pushy at all. She's offered me samples exactly once, and apart from that, any time we talk about her new business it's simply talking about work, the same way I would talk about a day at my work. Sounds as good as one can expect from MLM, right?

Cue my mother, who has decided she's going to become a part of SIL's "team", and is now bugging me to become part of her "team." For a product I don't use. Despite the fact I have a full-time, successful career that takes up most of my free time. Despite the fact I've never expressed an interest in sales.

She wanted to make sure she asked me first. You know, so she can exploit money from me instead of SIL. I'm tempted to tell SIL just to stir a little drama. I've resisted so far.

So far...

the joys of herbalife?? That company should have been shutdown!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: kib on May 23, 2015, 09:07:18 AM
They're free to. And i should be free to not pay for their freedom of choice.
They didn't ask any advice. They probably should have.
I absolutely think sterilization should be an option here. Tie your tubes or be cut off from medicaid. Public assistance is to get you back on your feet, not a lifelong handout to pay for your poor decisions.

You don't have kids intentionally if you can't afford it. Married, churchy, non-birth control using people ABSOLUTELY know what will happen if they continue to have sex. This child is a CHOICE. A CHOICE that they KNEW they couldn't afford. To me, this is just as disgusting as neglect.

It absolutely is her place to tell them they are wrong. They need to stop burying their heads in the sand and provide for what they have before they accept the responsibility for more.  Who better to bring that up than someone that loves them? It sounds like a tough conversation, but one that i have had with 2 friends and 1 cousin.

While there's nothing that can be done legally to stop them from continuing, I feel it is morally disgusting and irresponsible. Do you see it any other way ?
I'm not in favor of much more breeding, period. Beyond the financial burden to all of us when people have kids they can't afford, seriously, seven billion miracles is enough.  But what exactly are you suggesting she say?  Hi, just wanted to stop by and tell you I think you should get an abortion?  Probably not the most useful conversation.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 24, 2015, 05:33:41 PM
A relative needed some paperwork for a job application. He had left that paperwork across the country in his apartment. Instead of overnighting his keys to a friend to retrieve the papers for him, he buys a last-minute, cross-country round-trip ticket so he can go pick up the papers himself, and spend the whole day flying there and back.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Daleth on May 25, 2015, 07:38:15 AM
A relative needed some paperwork for a job application. He had left that paperwork across the country in his apartment. Instead of overnighting his keys to a friend to retrieve the papers for him, he buys a last-minute, cross-country round-trip ticket so he can go pick up the papers himself, and spend the whole day flying there and back.

That is HILARIOUS.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 25, 2015, 09:25:04 AM
A relative needed some paperwork for a job application. He had left that paperwork across the country in his apartment. Instead of overnighting his keys to a friend to retrieve the papers for him, he buys a last-minute, cross-country round-trip ticket so he can go pick up the papers himself, and spend the whole day flying there and back.

That is HILARIOUS.

I wish I were making this stuff up.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rob in cal on May 25, 2015, 10:24:56 AM
   My wife and her four sisters are having an upcoming sisters reunion (they did one two years ago as well).  I think its a good idea, but some problems that I see coming are the fact that the sisters will want to go on some expensive and ridiculous activities while they are there.  My wife would like to do some of them, but not things like hot air ballooning which costs 75% as much as the weekly rent for an apartment in one of the most beautiful regions in Croatia.   Hopefully things work out without too much financial ridiculousness.  Basically of the five sisters and their SO's, as far as I can tell, we work the least amount of hours, make the least earned money... and have the most assets.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 25, 2015, 10:53:41 AM
   My wife and her four sisters are having an upcoming sisters reunion (they did one two years ago as well).  I think its a good idea, but some problems that I see coming are the fact that the sisters will want to go on some expensive and ridiculous activities while they are there.  My wife would like to do some of them, but not things like hot air ballooning which costs 75% as much as the weekly rent for an apartment in one of the most beautiful regions in Croatia.   Hopefully things work out without too much financial ridiculousness.  Basically of the five sisters and their SO's, as far as I can tell, we work the least amount of hours, make the least earned money... and have the most assets.

That's a lot of sisters. DW and I make less combined than one of her siblings. The sibling and sibling's SO are both high earners. Yet we have far more assets. And don't hate our lives (unlike sibling).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 25, 2015, 10:57:21 AM
One of my relatives has a pretty low income and 4 kids. Yet they went to a Whole Paycheck Foods-type luxury grocery store and bought $10/pound salad bar dinners for the kids. The kids got stuff like cottage cheese and canned fruit. They literally walked past a normal supermarket selling whole containers of cottage cheese and cans of fruit, etc, for 80% less money.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Stache it Away on May 25, 2015, 09:05:16 PM
I provided some financial advice for a retired relative, showing various fund costs, expected and historical performance, and why it made sense to invest with a low-cost provider (i.e. Vanguard), and that the Target Retirement Fund would be a good option due to their need for stable income and fear of losing money in a market crash. He said I was much smarter than him.

So instead of following my advice, he starts talking about buying tax-free municipal bonds in his IRA. Of course the whole point of buying the tax-free bonds is because you don't have to pay taxes on them, and that compensates for the lower returns. But in an IRA, you aren't paying taxes on them anyway. Facepalm.


He's retired, I"m guessing that he has enough money to live off, or a pension, so if he's happier with municipal bonds, then why not leave him be. If he's retired, investing heavily in a low cost-bond might be the best route.

Because tax-free bonds have a lower return than taxable bonds with the same risk. The municipalities can do this because the bondholders weigh the lower return against the tax advantages and figure they still come out ahead. If you're holding tax-free munis in a tax-advantaged account, you're getting a lower return without any improved tax advantage.

Imagine a "tax free" store that has higher prices than its competitors, and a "tax free" credit card with a limit of $5,500. They both have advantages, but using the "tax free" credit card at the "tax free" store just means you're paying a higher price than you need to without improving your tax situation.


Just thought I'd chime in.  There are actually taxable municipal bonds as well.  There are not as many, but it might give your relative the best of both worlds (higher yield of taxable bonds and the safety of municipals).  No reason to invest in tax-exempt bonds in an IRA.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 26, 2015, 06:25:39 AM
I provided some financial advice for a retired relative, showing various fund costs, expected and historical performance, and why it made sense to invest with a low-cost provider (i.e. Vanguard), and that the Target Retirement Fund would be a good option due to their need for stable income and fear of losing money in a market crash. He said I was much smarter than him.

So instead of following my advice, he starts talking about buying tax-free municipal bonds in his IRA. Of course the whole point of buying the tax-free bonds is because you don't have to pay taxes on them, and that compensates for the lower returns. But in an IRA, you aren't paying taxes on them anyway. Facepalm.


He's retired, I"m guessing that he has enough money to live off, or a pension, so if he's happier with municipal bonds, then why not leave him be. If he's retired, investing heavily in a low cost-bond might be the best route.

Because tax-free bonds have a lower return than taxable bonds with the same risk. The municipalities can do this because the bondholders weigh the lower return against the tax advantages and figure they still come out ahead. If you're holding tax-free munis in a tax-advantaged account, you're getting a lower return without any improved tax advantage.

Imagine a "tax free" store that has higher prices than its competitors, and a "tax free" credit card with a limit of $5,500. They both have advantages, but using the "tax free" credit card at the "tax free" store just means you're paying a higher price than you need to without improving your tax situation.


Just thought I'd chime in.  There are actually taxable municipal bonds as well.  There are not as many, but it might give your relative the best of both worlds (higher yield of taxable bonds and the safety of municipals).  No reason to invest in tax-exempt bonds in an IRA.


Yes. He was explicitly talking about tax-free municipal bonds. It makes no sense. He doesn't listen to his own words as he says them.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rob in cal on May 26, 2015, 10:48:12 AM
   Update on wifes sister reunion.  Looks like the hot air balloon extravaganza won't be happening and they are focusing on horseback riding and maybe a jeep ride, both events being much cheaper and probably as nice an experience.  One sister did mention that she's looking forward to eating out. The reunion is in Sedona Arizona btw.  From now on, I will always associate a hot air balloon ride ticket in Sedona with a weeks stay in June at a modest lower end one bedroom apartment along the coast of Croatia, as both are in the same ballpark cost wise.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 27, 2015, 09:45:14 AM
Sedona is nice. But I'm sure Croatia is too. Glad they are going to do cheaper stuff now.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MountainManMustache on May 27, 2015, 10:16:25 AM
Uncle told me the other day after announcing my retirement, "wait a year and you'll find you are bored and will go back to work".  He just doesn't get it.  Instead he is a successful attorney (63 years old) stating that he will retire when he saves another $3M.  I feel sorry for him as his burn rate and lack of understanding of money management skills keep him hostage in the grind.  Oh well, I have stopped trying to explain my situation to him as he continues to adamantly state his position.  Ignorance truly is bliss (his ignorance = my bliss).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on May 27, 2015, 10:47:33 AM
Uncle told me the other day after announcing my retirement, "wait a year and you'll find you are bored and will go back to work".  He just doesn't get it.  Instead he is a successful attorney (63 years old) stating that he will retire when he saves another $3M.  I feel sorry for him as his burn rate and lack of understanding of money management skills keep him hostage in the grind.  Oh well, I have stopped trying to explain my situation to him as he continues to adamantly state his position.  Ignorance truly is bliss (his ignorance = my bliss).

And what's great is that it's only the worst case where he's right. And then you can be like everyone else, but have no money problems.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on June 16, 2015, 01:52:44 PM
I received a letter in the mail from some company named One Main Financial offering me a loan up to $4000 if I stopped by their local office to see if I qualified.

My SO: "But they're offering you $4000!! You could use it to pay off bills!!! You should go down there!!"
My response: Rip the letter into halves then quarters then drop it into the black hole of my work bag.

So let me get this straight: Incur more debt to pay off debt?? Disclosure: I am paying off 3 loans due to several successive emergencies they are being paid via payroll deduction and going down.  I am going to borrow no more and work on growing my mustache lol...

Follow Up: I showed it to my mom who was mustaching before I found it cool and she laughed and said the same thing.....
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on June 16, 2015, 02:27:18 PM
One of my relatives has a pretty low income and 4 kids. Yet they went to a Whole Paycheck Foods-type luxury grocery store and bought $10/pound salad bar dinners for the kids. The kids got stuff like cottage cheese and canned fruit. They literally walked past a normal supermarket selling whole containers of cottage cheese and cans of fruit, etc, for 80% less money.
*Headdesk repeatedly*
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 16, 2015, 02:32:01 PM
I received a letter in the mail from some company named One Main Financial offering me a loan up to $4000 if I stopped by their local office to see if I qualified.

My SO: "But they're offering you $4000!! You could use it to pay off bills!!! You should go down there!!"
My response: Rip the letter into halves then quarters then drop it into the black hole of my work bag.

So let me get this straight: Incur more debt to pay off debt?? Disclosure: I am paying off 3 loans due to several successive emergencies they are being paid via payroll deduction and going down.  I am going to borrow no more and work on growing my mustache lol...

Follow Up: I showed it to my mom who was mustaching before I found it cool and she laughed and said the same thing.....

Good job! In general, if someone is advertising to you, you probably don't need what they are selling.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on June 17, 2015, 08:24:06 AM
The main reason I joined this forum was to complain about my aunt and uncle!  They drive me and my mom to distraction.

My aunt first: She worked for private industry for 25 years then retired a few years ago.I always thought she was financially independent but it turned out she had been subsidized by my late grandparents for years!  Fast forward to 2012 my grandmother gives her 8K to settle up her bills and she blows the lot on QVC and God knows what instead of attempting to pay on her condo which was located in a great part of town at a very good price and centrally located to metro.  She lost the condo then moved in with my grandmother claiming she'd save up and get an apartment.  Fast forward again to 2015 3 years later she has saved nothing and my grandmother is now gone.  My mom wants to sell the house or deed it over to my aunt and uncle she doesn't want the upkeep of two homes.   What my aunt wants is for my mom to fix the place up there are defects in the kitchen and basement and continue to cover the monthly bills such as the gas property taxes and utilities while she lives mostly bill free.  She is always complaining she is broke yet seems to be able to afford a Nook, a new laptop and fancy T Shirts. Yet she considers me insane for learning to make my own soap at least melt and pour lol scent my own shower gels and bath salts.

Then there is my uncle: also subsidized by my late grandparents.  He has always been spoiled but I liked him.  He is a compulsive shopper like my aunt but unlike her still has a few years left in the workforce.  My grandfather helped him long after he should have when he got into debt. Even opened an IRA for him which my uncle promptly raided to "have fun" and now won't pay the penalties due for an early withdrawal that didn't fall under the exception rules.  When he passed my grandmother did the same sacrificing her own needs to keep his electricity on and his rent paid. Now that she is gone he expects my mother to do the same thing and subsidize him.  I have gone out of my way to make sure it doesn't happen.  Did I mention he was fired from his federal position for absenteeism and lying about his debts?  My mom helped him a bit out of pity I told her it was human to want to assist him he is family BUT he is an adult now and if she keeps giving him money he will never learn to stand on his own.

Arrrrggghhh!! The pair of them make me want to bang my head on the desk.  I am trying along with my brother and sister to support my mom as best we can we know they're stressing her out no end.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 17, 2015, 09:02:34 AM
Ouch. I have found that subsidizing those who are bad with money is just enabling and encouraging the behavior. I had a relative that took out a loan to consolidate some debt (something like $10k). By the time he got home he'd spent it all on tools! I don't even know how you do that. You just can't let some people get their hands on any money.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on June 17, 2015, 10:30:46 AM
I received a letter in the mail from some company named One Main Financial offering me a loan up to $4000 if I stopped by their local office to see if I qualified.

My SO: "But they're offering you $4000!! You could use it to pay off bills!!! You should go down there!!"
My response: Rip the letter into halves then quarters then drop it into the black hole of my work bag.

So let me get this straight: Incur more debt to pay off debt?? Disclosure: I am paying off 3 loans due to several successive emergencies they are being paid via payroll deduction and going down.  I am going to borrow no more and work on growing my mustache lol...

Follow Up: I showed it to my mom who was mustaching before I found it cool and she laughed and said the same thing.....

Good job! In general, if someone is advertising to you, you probably don't need what they are selling.
Sometimes even loan companies with advertising departments are capable of offering a better APR. I've traded debt for other debt a whole lot of times in my life, always after doing careful calculations to make sure the new loan offered lower total fees+interest and could therefore enable me to retire the debt faster.

However, One Main Financial sounds like one of those companies that caters to people who have tapped out their credit cards and think a "low fixed payment" at 22.99%APR is the answer to their financial crisis.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 17, 2015, 01:56:40 PM
I received a letter in the mail from some company named One Main Financial offering me a loan up to $4000 if I stopped by their local office to see if I qualified.

My SO: "But they're offering you $4000!! You could use it to pay off bills!!! You should go down there!!"
My response: Rip the letter into halves then quarters then drop it into the black hole of my work bag.

So let me get this straight: Incur more debt to pay off debt?? Disclosure: I am paying off 3 loans due to several successive emergencies they are being paid via payroll deduction and going down.  I am going to borrow no more and work on growing my mustache lol...

Follow Up: I showed it to my mom who was mustaching before I found it cool and she laughed and said the same thing.....

Good job! In general, if someone is advertising to you, you probably don't need what they are selling.
Sometimes even loan companies with advertising departments are capable of offering a better APR. I've traded debt for other debt a whole lot of times in my life, always after doing careful calculations to make sure the new loan offered lower total fees+interest and could therefore enable me to retire the debt faster.

However, One Main Financial sounds like one of those companies that caters to people who have tapped out their credit cards and think a "low fixed payment" at 22.99%APR is the answer to their financial crisis.

Yes, there are exceptions. But "in general" I've found that advertising is selling the stuff you don't need. For me, it's going to be at least 99% of ads I've seen.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AZDude on June 17, 2015, 03:11:27 PM
None of my relatives "get it", other than maybe one of my siblings. My parents live in a 2000+ sq ft home, just the two of them, have cable TV with premium channels(HBO, etc...)! Have two cars even though my dad doesn't work anymore. One of their windows is broken and boarded up, and has been for 2+ years, leaking cold air into the hot desert every summer while they enjoy their HBO and Showtime! Gah... pisses me off just thinking about it. Fix the goddamn window! I'm not asking that much...

Meanwhile, for their 30th anniversary a while back, my siblings contact me with the notion of throwing a big party for them. After squabbling over where to have the event(Park was out of the running due to heat, my place was too small, etc...). Anyway, despite repeated pleas to not spend money on ridiculous things since their home needed repairs like a new window, and if we really wanted to do something nice we could fix it... instead my sister spend hundreds of dollars on food and decorations for a party of like 25 people. Meanwhile the window is still broken, but hey the board now has some nice curtains over it!!!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: NorCal on June 17, 2015, 04:09:40 PM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 17, 2015, 04:47:57 PM
None of my relatives "get it", other than maybe one of my siblings. My parents live in a 2000+ sq ft home, just the two of them, have cable TV with premium channels(HBO, etc...)! Have two cars even though my dad doesn't work anymore. One of their windows is broken and boarded up, and has been for 2+ years, leaking cold air into the hot desert every summer while they enjoy their HBO and Showtime! Gah... pisses me off just thinking about it. Fix the goddamn window! I'm not asking that much...

Meanwhile, for their 30th anniversary a while back, my siblings contact me with the notion of throwing a big party for them. After squabbling over where to have the event(Park was out of the running due to heat, my place was too small, etc...). Anyway, despite repeated pleas to not spend money on ridiculous things since their home needed repairs like a new window, and if we really wanted to do something nice we could fix it... instead my sister spend hundreds of dollars on food and decorations for a party of like 25 people. Meanwhile the window is still broken, but hey the board now has some nice curtains over it!!!

Oh, that broken window is so bad in the heat. Oh that's terrible. That's a year-round money loser. A window isn't that expensive.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 17, 2015, 04:49:54 PM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.

How do you work for the government and not file your taxes?!?! For SEVEN YEARS!?!? So dumb.

Of course the reason they were able to get away with it is because they were getting a refund. That was very kind of them to lend the Treasury $20k though.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on June 17, 2015, 08:20:10 PM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.

How do you work for the government and not file your taxes?!?! For SEVEN YEARS!?!? So dumb.

Of course the reason they were able to get away with it is because they were getting a refund. That was very kind of them to lend the Treasury $20k though.

Yikes, it reminds me of a moment in the Simpsons where it's Tax Day and Homer comments, "I filed my taxes years ago...."

I still remember a few years ago where my dad asked me if I filed my taxes and I realized that it was September and I hadn't, I had filed an extention but just pushed it aside. I filed it that day and got a refund, and lesson learned.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: regulator on June 17, 2015, 08:38:45 PM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.

How do you work for the government and not file your taxes?!?! For SEVEN YEARS!?!? So dumb.

Of course the reason they were able to get away with it is because they were getting a refund. That was very kind of them to lend the Treasury $20k though.

Mind boggling.  Even scarier, how did their employer not figure out they were 7 years delinquent on taxes?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 18, 2015, 06:08:24 AM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.

How do you work for the government and not file your taxes?!?! For SEVEN YEARS!?!? So dumb.

Of course the reason they were able to get away with it is because they were getting a refund. That was very kind of them to lend the Treasury $20k though.

Mind boggling.  Even scarier, how did their employer not figure out they were 7 years delinquent on taxes?

Based on the experiences of one of my coworkers: If the IRS thinks they owe you money, they are OK with you not filing (no penalties or interest is due). But they don't have any authority to send you a refund check because you haven't told them about all your deductions and stuff and what you're claiming your income is, etc. You only get in real trouble if they think you owe them money and you don't file. Then they come after you.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kitsune on June 18, 2015, 07:46:03 AM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.

How do you work for the government and not file your taxes?!?! For SEVEN YEARS!?!? So dumb.

Of course the reason they were able to get away with it is because they were getting a refund. That was very kind of them to lend the Treasury $20k though.

Mind boggling.  Even scarier, how did their employer not figure out they were 7 years delinquent on taxes?

When I moved in with my now-husband, he hadn't done his taxes in 7 years, and his credit was so bad he couldn't qualify for a cell phone plan. (Yes. It's possible. Cringe now. Trust me, the only reason I agreed to move in with him is that we kept 'separate' finances for a while - aka, my money is mine and you can't use it for your debt - and also that he basically let me handle all the finances going forward. And when I did those back-taxes, we discovered that he was owed almost 15K. ARGH.)

7 years later, we both have phenomenal credit, drive a single paid-off car, have absolutely no debt, and save over 30% of our salaries (could be better, but we've had some major expenses in the past year - house-building and kid-having, basically).

I genuinely don't think he'd have gotten there on his own, but after two years of me handling finances, he realized that he didn't feel deprived at all, and MAN was it nice when an unexpectedly high bill wasn't a crisis. Now, he's on board.

To be honest, though: if he hadn't let me fix the finances/spending/back-taxes/etc, I wouldn't have married him. No matter how much you love someone, you don't chain yourself onto a sinking ship.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on June 18, 2015, 08:29:53 AM
At least your husband improved his ways. My own behaved for about a year then rapidly backslid to the point I am grateful most of our finances are well separated.  Maybe I will post my own rant about him later today depends on whether I can recall it without bellowing curses at him and myself.

Congratulations to you both!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 18, 2015, 08:40:55 AM
To be honest, though: if he hadn't let me fix the finances/spending/back-taxes/etc, I wouldn't have married him. No matter how much you love someone, you don't chain yourself onto a sinking ship.

Amen, Sister! You have to love yourself too. The biggest danger of rescuing a drowning person is that they pull you down with them through their panic. It's an important part of lifeguard training.

At least your husband improved his ways. My own behaved for about a year then rapidly backslid to the point I am grateful most of our finances are well separated.  Maybe I will post my own rant about him later today depends on whether I can recall it without bellowing curses at him and myself.

Congratulations to you both!

Ouch. Sorry to hear that. It is hard to get people to change their ways.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on June 18, 2015, 08:55:05 AM
Just found out that the financial problems of one of our relatives are MUCH worse than what we thought they were; it is really quite sad.

BUT what is bizarre, is my BIL said "what I don't understand is this is the person who got me turned around, got me to get a real job, got me away from credit cards"  and BIL/SIL are actually doing okay for themselves now.  (I don't think they are to the point where they are thinking about investing, or really even saving, but they aren't racking up debt... so that's good. I should tell husband to talk to SIL and make sure they are at least getting 401k matches.)


Someone clearly cannot take their own advice.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on June 18, 2015, 09:22:44 AM
Last night with FFIL, FMIL, and my fiance. I have a full time job, she's in a temp job. I'm covered under my parents health insurance until January when I turn 26; and it makes no difference to my parents since it is the same for my little brother as it is for both of us.

The options for her health insurance are COBRA at $600/month, exchange at $300/month, and my health insurance at $420 a month, which is basically the same coverage as the exchange option. They're (FMIL and Fiance) freaking out that I am going to refuse to get the spousal benefit, since I don't need the insurance. Say I'm being selfish. FFIL, who sells health insurance, is looking at me with this look of bemusement at their incredulity. I just can't even... Why would we pay $120 more to basically just double insure a 25 year old healthy and active male? Thank God FFIL was there to explain it, because I don't know how to explain common sense.

Hormones are a hell of a drug (that time of the month for one, post-menopause and MS bullshit for the other)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kris on June 18, 2015, 09:31:34 AM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.

How do you work for the government and not file your taxes?!?! For SEVEN YEARS!?!? So dumb.

Of course the reason they were able to get away with it is because they were getting a refund. That was very kind of them to lend the Treasury $20k though.

Mind boggling.  Even scarier, how did their employer not figure out they were 7 years delinquent on taxes?

When I moved in with my now-husband, he hadn't done his taxes in 7 years, and his credit was so bad he couldn't qualify for a cell phone plan. (Yes. It's possible. Cringe now. Trust me, the only reason I agreed to move in with him is that we kept 'separate' finances for a while - aka, my money is mine and you can't use it for your debt - and also that he basically let me handle all the finances going forward. And when I did those back-taxes, we discovered that he was owed almost 15K. ARGH.)

7 years later, we both have phenomenal credit, drive a single paid-off car, have absolutely no debt, and save over 30% of our salaries (could be better, but we've had some major expenses in the past year - house-building and kid-having, basically).

I genuinely don't think he'd have gotten there on his own, but after two years of me handling finances, he realized that he didn't feel deprived at all, and MAN was it nice when an unexpectedly high bill wasn't a crisis. Now, he's on board.

To be honest, though: if he hadn't let me fix the finances/spending/back-taxes/etc, I wouldn't have married him. No matter how much you love someone, you don't chain yourself onto a sinking ship.

Damn, that was like reading something I wrote myself. Except for the not paying his taxes in 7 years, my husband (and my solution to the problem) was the same.  Glad to see another success story come out of a situation like that!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on June 18, 2015, 10:18:19 AM
DH and I both have grandmothers that subsidize our uncles, whom are in their 50's. I gave up trying to talk sense into my grandmother years ago; despite getting a hefty subsidy from his ILs, my grandmother insisted that my uncle needed the money for 'the sake of the grandchildren.' DH, AFAIK, has never broached the subject with his grandmother. There's only so much one can do. It's their money, and if they choose to give it to people whom are bad with $ and will forever be dependent upon them, then that's their issue. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kitsune on June 18, 2015, 11:21:54 AM
Argh, relatives.

We're currently building a house, and it seems like everyone on my side of the family has opinions about the decisions we're making, and it just demonstrates how little they get it. Highlights include:

My aunt: But why vinyl siding? (Tone of voice implying that we were smearing turds on the walls...) What about Maybec? Or brick! Those would be so much nicer!
Me: Because 20K and 40K more, respectively.
There are a few things we spent (reasonable amounts of) money on for entirely aesthetic reasons, but I have yet to see how maybec siding is 20K nicer and will bring me 20K more enjoyment... Whereas 20K less on my mortgage will make me MUCH happier.

Or my dad: "You should put in a propane fireplace instead of the (gorgeous, enameled, with a window to see the fire...) woodstove you're putting in!"
Me: "... but the woodstove actually heats the house, and can heat food and whatnot in case of a power outage (we're in the country, in Quebec. This happens.) The propane fireplace just looks pretty, and heats the immediate area it's in. That's less functional..."
My dad: "but then you'll have to split wood. (Spoken as if this was a fate worst than death)"
Me: "... So we can split free wood from our woodlot and be in shape, and then relax on our couch watching the roaring fire, rather than sit in front of a propane-burning machine and pay for the privilege of going to the gym in addition? Sounds great...? "

Or my mother: "Oh, don't put in a vegetable garden! It's so much effort!"
20 minutes later: "Oh, you should absolutely put flower gardens all around the house!"
Me: "Well, we don't like driving to the grocery store, so access to fresh lettuce and veggies is great, and we can fence in the vegetable garden. And putting flowers everywhere would just ensure the chickens will eat them. Maybe we could grow something chicken-friendly and resistant that would still be pretty?"
My mom: *sour face at the mention of chickens* Because free-range eggs are something you buy at the farmer's market at 7$/dozen, you see. Now picture her face when she finds out about the sheep...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on June 18, 2015, 01:53:17 PM
Mind boggling.  Even scarier, how did their employer not figure out they were 7 years delinquent on taxes?

Based on the experiences of one of my coworkers: If the IRS thinks they owe you money, they are OK with you not filing (no penalties or interest is due). But they don't have any authority to send you a refund check because you haven't told them about all your deductions and stuff and what you're claiming your income is, etc. You only get in real trouble if they think you owe them money and you don't file. Then they come after you.
The IRS is also basically in triage mode after years of payroll cuts while the population continues to rise. They only have so many people and so much time to go after delinquents, and sometimes things just fall through the cracks.
I've had multiple friends (and when I was a tax preparer, clients) who had gone 3 years or more without filing, and had never received so much as a letter about it. Some of them were self-employed and owed substantial quantities.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Fuzzy Buttons on June 18, 2015, 02:20:52 PM
Mind boggling.  Even scarier, how did their employer not figure out they were 7 years delinquent on taxes?

Based on the experiences of one of my coworkers: If the IRS thinks they owe you money, they are OK with you not filing (no penalties or interest is due). But they don't have any authority to send you a refund check because you haven't told them about all your deductions and stuff and what you're claiming your income is, etc. You only get in real trouble if they think you owe them money and you don't file. Then they come after you.
The IRS is also basically in triage mode after years of payroll cuts while the population continues to rise. They only have so many people and so much time to go after delinquents, and sometimes things just fall through the cracks.
I've had multiple friends (and when I was a tax preparer, clients) who had gone 3 years or more without filing, and had never received so much as a letter about it. Some of them were self-employed and owed substantial quantities.

Earlier this year my gf found a 1099-B from 2013 showing capital gains that she had neglected to claim on her taxes.  There'd been no notification from the IRS about it yet.  So we went through the process of filing an amended tax return and she sent in a check for the difference.  It was a couple hundred dollars or so.

Today she gets a letter from the IRS basically thanking her for her payment and stating they are waiving the $3.26 in interest she had accumulated.  That's like the nicest letter I've ever seen from the IRS.  :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: BlueHouse on June 19, 2015, 03:01:04 PM
Quote
Hormones are a hell of a drug (that time of the month for one, post-menopause and MS bullshit for the other)
Now is probably as good a time as any to learn this:  half the population in the world don't want to hear this kind of crap. Shut it, and learn how to deal with all types of humans without assuming the behavior is some mysterious hormonal event. Perhaps you just suck at communicating.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on June 19, 2015, 03:24:20 PM
Quote
Hormones are a hell of a drug (that time of the month for one, post-menopause and MS bullshit for the other)
Now is probably as good a time as any to learn this:  half the population in the world don't want to hear this kind of crap. Shut it, and learn how to deal with all types of humans without assuming the behavior is some mysterious hormonal event. Perhaps you just suck at communicating.

It isn't mysterious, it is PMDD. It is the truth, and the person in question readily admits it after the freakout.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LeRainDrop on June 20, 2015, 08:57:10 AM
The biggest danger of rescuing a drowning person is that they pull you down with them through their panic. It's an important part of lifeguard training.
Youngest brother and I have stopped loaning money to family, but mom still gets persuaded by middle brother's begging.  I am totally going to use this quote next time that issue comes up.  I love it; thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 20, 2015, 10:08:02 AM
The biggest danger of rescuing a drowning person is that they pull you down with them through their panic. It's an important part of lifeguard training.
Youngest brother and I have stopped loaning money to family, but mom still gets persuaded by middle brother's begging.  I am totally going to use this quote next time that issue comes up.  I love it; thanks for sharing!

Glad it will help you out! I had to learn that lesson the hard way myself <sigh>.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on June 22, 2015, 02:45:18 PM
Quote
Hormones are a hell of a drug (that time of the month for one, post-menopause and MS bullshit for the other)
Now is probably as good a time as any to learn this:  half the population in the world don't want to hear this kind of crap. Shut it, and learn how to deal with all types of humans without assuming the behavior is some mysterious hormonal event. Perhaps you just suck at communicating.

It isn't mysterious, it is PMDD. It is the truth, and the person in question readily admits it after the freakout.
Word.  It varies month to month for me, but some months it is bad.  I can feel it, I know it, I know I'm being irrational, and I can't stop it.

Also: I tend to have insomnia about 10 days before, and the irrationality is more like 5 days before, so imagine being sleep deprived on TOP of the hormones.  Not pretty.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on June 22, 2015, 03:16:22 PM
Quote
Hormones are a hell of a drug (that time of the month for one, post-menopause and MS bullshit for the other)
Now is probably as good a time as any to learn this:  half the population in the world don't want to hear this kind of crap. Shut it, and learn how to deal with all types of humans without assuming the behavior is some mysterious hormonal event. Perhaps you just suck at communicating.

It isn't mysterious, it is PMDD. It is the truth, and the person in question readily admits it after the freakout.
Word.  It varies month to month for me, but some months it is bad.  I can feel it, I know it, I know I'm being irrational, and I can't stop it.

Also: I tend to have insomnia about 10 days before, and the irrationality is more like 5 days before, so imagine being sleep deprived on TOP of the hormones.  Not pretty.

Similar situation here. Not insomnia, but poor sleep about 5-7 days before, then irrationality 3-6 days before, then general moodiness for the next 2-7 days. I don't envy you at all.

From the boyfriend/fiance/best friend point of view, the birth control Yaz helps a little. Not much though.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Spiffsome on June 22, 2015, 06:45:35 PM
My mom: *sour face at the mention of chickens* Because free-range eggs are something you buy at the farmer's market at 7$/dozen, you see. Now picture her face when she finds out about the sheep...

Silly Kitsune, chickens are for poor people, don't you know? If you have chickens your neighbours might think you're poor, and that's a fate worse than death! ;-)

Seriously though, I wish you good luck with the chickens and the vegetable gardens.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kitsune on June 22, 2015, 07:04:34 PM
My mom: *sour face at the mention of chickens* Because free-range eggs are something you buy at the farmer's market at 7$/dozen, you see. Now picture her face when she finds out about the sheep...

Silly Kitsune, chickens are for poor people, don't you know? If you have chickens your neighbours might think you're poor, and that's a fate worse than death! ;-)

Seriously though, I wish you good luck with the chickens and the vegetable gardens.

... Well, we live in the country, and the neighbors are a) my in-laws, and b) they have sheep and run a sugaring operation every spring. So. They're pretty supportive of our plans... :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sibley on June 22, 2015, 07:38:33 PM
Quote
Hormones are a hell of a drug (that time of the month for one, post-menopause and MS bullshit for the other)
Now is probably as good a time as any to learn this:  half the population in the world don't want to hear this kind of crap. Shut it, and learn how to deal with all types of humans without assuming the behavior is some mysterious hormonal event. Perhaps you just suck at communicating.

It isn't mysterious, it is PMDD. It is the truth, and the person in question readily admits it after the freakout.
Word.  It varies month to month for me, but some months it is bad.  I can feel it, I know it, I know I'm being irrational, and I can't stop it.

Also: I tend to have insomnia about 10 days before, and the irrationality is more like 5 days before, so imagine being sleep deprived on TOP of the hormones.  Not pretty.

Similar situation here. Not insomnia, but poor sleep about 5-7 days before, then irrationality 3-6 days before, then general moodiness for the next 2-7 days. I don't envy you at all.

From the boyfriend/fiance/best friend point of view, the birth control Yaz helps a little. Not much though.

Never mind the PMS. I will never take hormonal birth control ever again. I was certifiable, and had absolutely no idea. I even scared my cats :(
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on June 23, 2015, 08:09:52 AM
And tomorrow I punish myself by accompanying my mom to make sure my aunt goes to her followup GI appointment.  No doubt she will complain of being broke, ask me and my mom for either money or items, insult us then complain how awful my late grandmother was...

She has also developed a habit of bugging my mom to take her grocery shopping then conveniently forgetting her money or that she has very little on her debit card.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: RetiredAt63 on June 24, 2015, 12:53:09 PM
Maibec (yes I looked it up), some people prefer wood siding to vinyl. YMMV. Brick is a pain, all that pointing.

Wood stove, go for it, ours got us through 3 weeks of no power in January 1998 (the great ice storm).  Including hot drinks for the tree guys from Pennsylvania (thanks to our US neighbours) and hydro people (thanks to Mississauga).

Sugar bush next door - great. Re collection methods, everyone bitches about tubing versus buckets, but tubing means much less soil compaction because there is no equipment out collecting the sap.  I thought that was an interesting and valid viewpoint.

What kind of sheep? I know someone who runs Plymouth Rock hens in with her sheep, it works out well.

Argh, relatives.

We're currently building a house, and it seems like everyone on my side of the family has opinions about the decisions we're making, and it just demonstrates how little they get it. Highlights include:

My aunt: But why vinyl siding? (Tone of voice implying that we were smearing turds on the walls...) What about Maybec? Or brick! Those would be so much nicer!
Me: Because 20K and 40K more, respectively.
There are a few things we spent (reasonable amounts of) money on for entirely aesthetic reasons, but I have yet to see how maybec siding is 20K nicer and will bring me 20K more enjoyment... Whereas 20K less on my mortgage will make me MUCH happier.

Or my dad: "You should put in a propane fireplace instead of the (gorgeous, enameled, with a window to see the fire...) woodstove you're putting in!"
Me: "... but the woodstove actually heats the house, and can heat food and whatnot in case of a power outage (we're in the country, in Quebec. This happens.) The propane fireplace just looks pretty, and heats the immediate area it's in. That's less functional..."
My dad: "but then you'll have to split wood. (Spoken as if this was a fate worst than death)"
Me: "... So we can split free wood from our woodlot and be in shape, and then relax on our couch watching the roaring fire, rather than sit in front of a propane-burning machine and pay for the privilege of going to the gym in addition? Sounds great...? "

Or my mother: "Oh, don't put in a vegetable garden! It's so much effort!"
20 minutes later: "Oh, you should absolutely put flower gardens all around the house!"
Me: "Well, we don't like driving to the grocery store, so access to fresh lettuce and veggies is great, and we can fence in the vegetable garden. And putting flowers everywhere would just ensure the chickens will eat them. Maybe we could grow something chicken-friendly and resistant that would still be pretty?"
My mom: *sour face at the mention of chickens* Because free-range eggs are something you buy at the farmer's market at 7$/dozen, you see. Now picture her face when she finds out about the sheep...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kitsune on June 25, 2015, 06:37:39 AM
The thing is that both Maibec and vinyl are pretty low-maintenance, whereas wood needs to be maintained and re-painted every few years. My in-laws have wood siding, and the paint noticably chips and looks iffy (and if you don't re-paint the wood gets humid, moldy, etc...) after 4-5 years. Knowing myself and my husband, that kind of re-painting is not gonna happen. I'll do inside maintanance, gardening, child care, animal care, I'll work full-time... but I'm just not gonna ever be interested enough in re-painting the house to take the time to do it. For someone who wouldn't mind doing the work (or I guess hiring someone to $$$), wood siding might totally be a better option. (Disclosure: I fought the vinyl decision for like 2 months. I'm not a fan of the look. But the contractor found one that doesn't look terrible, and at that point... Suck it up and admit what works for you, instead of saying it'll all work out and then being stuck with something you hate maintaining for years, y'know?)

My father-in-law has tubing set up over about 140 acres... it's not a small operation. We'll probably do buckets until we tap enough trees to merit the change, though. It's a lot of maintenance, so you need a large-ish operation to make the work worth it...

Don't know what kind of sheep yet! Every year, my in-laws buy 5-6 lambs and put them on about 2 acres of fenced-in property. Then the sheep look cute and keep the grass low all summer, and in the fall they get a trip to the butcher's. They eat a lot of lamb, and apparently it works out to 3-4$/lb for grass-fed, local, organic, etc lamb... ain't bad. Personally, I'd prefer to keep a few sheep year-round, but we'll see how it works out. Whatever we do for the hens will need to be pretty safe, though - there are coyotes and foxes near here, so hens go missing pretty easily. Still, hens are pretty great at keeping the base of blackberry/raspberry/blueberry bushes cleared out, as long as it's fenced in and fox-free... (and also we'll need to keep the foxes out of the rabbit hutch.)

Basically: my side of the family is very used to large houses (my parents just "downsized" down from 7000sq feet, and their "retirement" house is still bigger than the house we're building and planning on raising a family in), buying whatever they want/need, and no budgeting. So... seeing chickens, sheep, rabbits, smaller house, country living... they just Do Not Get It At All.

Maibec (yes I looked it up), some people prefer wood siding to vinyl. YMMV. Brick is a pain, all that pointing.

Wood stove, go for it, ours got us through 3 weeks of no power in January 1998 (the great ice storm).  Including hot drinks for the tree guys from Pennsylvania (thanks to our US neighbours) and hydro people (thanks to Mississauga).

Sugar bush next door - great. Re collection methods, everyone bitches about tubing versus buckets, but tubing means much less soil compaction because there is no equipment out collecting the sap.  I thought that was an interesting and valid viewpoint.

What kind of sheep? I know someone who runs Plymouth Rock hens in with her sheep, it works out well.

Argh, relatives.

We're currently building a house, and it seems like everyone on my side of the family has opinions about the decisions we're making, and it just demonstrates how little they get it. Highlights include:

My aunt: But why vinyl siding? (Tone of voice implying that we were smearing turds on the walls...) What about Maybec? Or brick! Those would be so much nicer!
Me: Because 20K and 40K more, respectively.
There are a few things we spent (reasonable amounts of) money on for entirely aesthetic reasons, but I have yet to see how maybec siding is 20K nicer and will bring me 20K more enjoyment... Whereas 20K less on my mortgage will make me MUCH happier.

Or my dad: "You should put in a propane fireplace instead of the (gorgeous, enameled, with a window to see the fire...) woodstove you're putting in!"
Me: "... but the woodstove actually heats the house, and can heat food and whatnot in case of a power outage (we're in the country, in Quebec. This happens.) The propane fireplace just looks pretty, and heats the immediate area it's in. That's less functional..."
My dad: "but then you'll have to split wood. (Spoken as if this was a fate worst than death)"
Me: "... So we can split free wood from our woodlot and be in shape, and then relax on our couch watching the roaring fire, rather than sit in front of a propane-burning machine and pay for the privilege of going to the gym in addition? Sounds great...? "

Or my mother: "Oh, don't put in a vegetable garden! It's so much effort!"
20 minutes later: "Oh, you should absolutely put flower gardens all around the house!"
Me: "Well, we don't like driving to the grocery store, so access to fresh lettuce and veggies is great, and we can fence in the vegetable garden. And putting flowers everywhere would just ensure the chickens will eat them. Maybe we could grow something chicken-friendly and resistant that would still be pretty?"
My mom: *sour face at the mention of chickens* Because free-range eggs are something you buy at the farmer's market at 7$/dozen, you see. Now picture her face when she finds out about the sheep...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on June 25, 2015, 02:58:13 PM
In regard to Yaz -birth control-this can cause a serious, rare liver disease. My friend's daughter took it for a short time at age 18. Within a year she was dead. She had to go to the Midwest for a liver transplant since the wait on the West Coast was 5 years. She died after the transplant. A doctor told me that the older BC pills are better/safer then many of the newer ones.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: druth on June 26, 2015, 08:53:14 AM
Basically: my side of the family is very used to large houses (my parents just "downsized" down from 7000sq feet, and their "retirement" house is still bigger than the house we're building and planning on raising a family in), buying whatever they want/need, and no budgeting. So... seeing chickens, sheep, rabbits, smaller house, country living... they just Do Not Get It At All.

I'm looking at houses right now and I don't think I could even buy a 7000 sq foot house without traveling for 45 minutes, or buying a 2 million dollar historic mansion(complete with servants quarters).  Mind blowing. 

I have looked at a few 2000 sq. ft. houses, and they are overwhelmingly big, but I guess it's a matter of perspective since I grew up in in a 1350 sq ft and a 1500 sq ft house.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kitsune on June 26, 2015, 12:20:57 PM
Basically: my side of the family is very used to large houses (my parents just "downsized" down from 7000sq feet, and their "retirement" house is still bigger than the house we're building and planning on raising a family in), buying whatever they want/need, and no budgeting. So... seeing chickens, sheep, rabbits, smaller house, country living... they just Do Not Get It At All.

I'm looking at houses right now and I don't think I could even buy a 7000 sq foot house without traveling for 45 minutes, or buying a 2 million dollar historic mansion(complete with servants quarters).  Mind blowing. 

I have looked at a few 2000 sq. ft. houses, and they are overwhelmingly big, but I guess it's a matter of perspective since I grew up in in a 1350 sq ft and a 1500 sq ft house.

Well, in my parents case, they bought a falling-apart 1800s "farmhouse" (the kind of "farmhouse" that includes servants quarters) and then spent 20 years renovating it room by room (via contractor. Because obviously you would never do construction yourself, it might save money..) So the historic mansion isn't far off... (And it sold for somewhat less than 1 million, should such a property ever interest you. Personally, I look at it and at the necessary maintenance and want to run screaming.)

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 26, 2015, 02:07:45 PM
Basically: my side of the family is very used to large houses (my parents just "downsized" down from 7000sq feet, and their "retirement" house is still bigger than the house we're building and planning on raising a family in), buying whatever they want/need, and no budgeting. So... seeing chickens, sheep, rabbits, smaller house, country living... they just Do Not Get It At All.

I'm looking at houses right now and I don't think I could even buy a 7000 sq foot house without traveling for 45 minutes, or buying a 2 million dollar historic mansion(complete with servants quarters).  Mind blowing. 

I have looked at a few 2000 sq. ft. houses, and they are overwhelmingly big, but I guess it's a matter of perspective since I grew up in in a 1350 sq ft and a 1500 sq ft house.

Well, in my parents case, they bought a falling-apart 1800s "farmhouse" (the kind of "farmhouse" that includes servants quarters) and then spent 20 years renovating it room by room (via contractor. Because obviously you would never do construction yourself, it might save money..) So the historic mansion isn't far off... (And it sold for somewhat less than 1 million, should such a property ever interest you. Personally, I look at it and at the necessary maintenance and want to run screaming.)

Seems like "servants" quarters needed quotes too...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on June 26, 2015, 03:15:55 PM
I was forced to accompany my aunt grocery shopping Thursday as part of my promise to my mother.  While in the store I observed she seemed to have no concept of coupons, store specials or even shopping with a list.  I pointed out she could purchase store brand items such as ketchup mustard and mayonnaise since the quality is usually the same but it fell on deaf ears.  I pointed out some of the meats had those instant coupons on them she seemed to disdain those and go for prepared foods the most expensive ones. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on June 27, 2015, 12:51:31 PM
You... You wouldn't people at the store to think you were poor!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: lostamonkey on June 27, 2015, 01:31:30 PM
I was forced to accompany my aunt grocery shopping Thursday as part of my promise to my mother.  While in the store I observed she seemed to have no concept of coupons, store specials or even shopping with a list.  I pointed out she could purchase store brand items such as ketchup mustard and mayonnaise since the quality is usually the same but it fell on deaf ears.  I pointed out some of the meats had those instant coupons on them she seemed to disdain those and go for prepared foods the most expensive ones.

Grocery shopping with non-frugal people can be pretty interesting. It's like they don't care at all about money, and have no idea what they need.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on June 27, 2015, 01:57:37 PM
I was forced to accompany my aunt grocery shopping Thursday as part of my promise to my mother.  While in the store I observed she seemed to have no concept of coupons, store specials or even shopping with a list.  I pointed out she could purchase store brand items such as ketchup mustard and mayonnaise since the quality is usually the same but it fell on deaf ears.  I pointed out some of the meats had those instant coupons on them she seemed to disdain those and go for prepared foods the most expensive ones.

Grocery shopping with non-frugal people can be pretty interesting. It's like they don't care at all about money, and have no idea what they need.

Yeah, it kills me. They don't even look at the other options within a few feet of them. They could literally save a dollar or even several dollars by grabbing an equivalent item just right over there if they pause and think about it for a minute. Over a lifetime that's tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: lostamonkey on June 27, 2015, 02:39:35 PM
I was forced to accompany my aunt grocery shopping Thursday as part of my promise to my mother.  While in the store I observed she seemed to have no concept of coupons, store specials or even shopping with a list.  I pointed out she could purchase store brand items such as ketchup mustard and mayonnaise since the quality is usually the same but it fell on deaf ears.  I pointed out some of the meats had those instant coupons on them she seemed to disdain those and go for prepared foods the most expensive ones.

Grocery shopping with non-frugal people can be pretty interesting. It's like they don't care at all about money, and have no idea what they need.

Yeah, it kills me. They don't even look at the other options within a few feet of them. They could literally save a dollar or even several dollars by grabbing an equivalent item just right over there if they pause and think about it for a minute. Over a lifetime that's tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I agree, it's somewhat understandable to pay extra for "quality" but paying extra for exactly the same product doesn't make sense to me. These people also tend to buy such small quantities of things that take a long time to expire so they pay a higher price per unit.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on June 29, 2015, 10:54:59 AM
Did I mention my aunt also begged my mom for $50 to cover cabfare to and from the house to her doctor's appt?  Unless she would have been advised not to return home alone due to the  effects of the tests she could have gotten there and back for about one quarter of the cost via Metro.

On the upside, my mom has FINALLY cut my uncle off for good due to the fact he never came to see my aunt when she was in the hospital!  I wanted her to do it in May but better late than never.   She is mailing him a final check and has told him to not contact her.   She said even though my aunt is a pain she is still family and it would have cost him nothing to come see her while she was ill.  The reason why doesn't matter to me long as it was done...she even said she felt bad for not being able to help me get my hair done :-) but I told her not to feel guilty about that that's why I work and hustle to provide for myself.


Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LeRainDrop on June 29, 2015, 08:23:31 PM
Did I mention my aunt also begged my mom for $50 to cover cabfare to and from the house to her doctor's appt?  Unless she would have been advised not to return home alone due to the  effects of the tests she could have gotten there and back for about one quarter of the cost via Metro.
Uh, so why didn't your aunt take the metro to get to the doctor's office, and then the cab back home?  I would assume she didn't experience any effects from the tests until after they were actually performed.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on June 30, 2015, 09:16:43 AM
I will find out once my mother returns from her out of town trip.  She travels to get breaks from my aunt and uncle.  She was already suspicious my aunt would use the money for other purposes than cab fare. 
I did manage to give my mom a Mustachian gift.  She loves old radio shows so I got my paws on The Shadow audio files, put them on a flash drive, put the drive in a mini organza bag I had and handed it to her.  I also loaded it with BBC's Modesty Blaise and a black history audio book.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on June 30, 2015, 01:11:37 PM
Uh, so why didn't your aunt take the metro to get to the doctor's office, and then the cab back home?  I would assume she didn't experience any effects from the tests until after they were actually performed.
It's a rare condition known as "anticipatory disability".
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ahoy on July 01, 2015, 03:41:27 AM
My soon to be ex stupid relative is trying to take my other relative to the cleaners.  This is will be a very messy divorce.   She's got her lawyer involved with stupid mundane stuff,  thinks she has access to a large sum of legal aid.  I presume she will have to pay it back once the assets are split. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: cripzychiken on July 01, 2015, 05:58:12 AM
My MIL doesn't know how to use her smart phone.  After setting up her email, downloading her favorite games and showing her how to use messaging, she was happy.  After that she started asking me EVERY single stupid question she could think of.  Everything from how do you change the volume (After having the phone for over a year) to more reasonable questions like how to change the background photo.  I honestly had to tell her - I don't have that type of phone, idk how to change that setting, maybe she should google it. (She lives 3+ hours away, so I was trying to do all this while talking to her on the phone - she wouldn't even call from another phone).

So after 2 months of this, she sells her phone and buys the exact same one I have.  Now on top of all the stupid questions, I also get to hear about how I forced her to sell the phone she loved and made her get this POS phone she can't stand.

So much for trying to be nice and help.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 01, 2015, 06:21:44 AM
My MIL doesn't know how to use her smart phone.  After setting up her email, downloading her favorite games and showing her how to use messaging, she was happy.  After that she started asking me EVERY single stupid question she could think of.  Everything from how do you change the volume (After having the phone for over a year) to more reasonable questions like how to change the background photo.  I honestly had to tell her - I don't have that type of phone, idk how to change that setting, maybe she should google it. (She lives 3+ hours away, so I was trying to do all this while talking to her on the phone - she wouldn't even call from another phone).

So after 2 months of this, she sells her phone and buys the exact same one I have.  Now on top of all the stupid questions, I also get to hear about how I forced her to sell the phone she loved and made her get this POS phone she can't stand.

So much for trying to be nice and help.

HAHAHA! Oh, what a terrible, sneaky lady!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Dollar Slice on July 01, 2015, 08:23:01 AM
I honestly had to tell her - I don't have that type of phone, idk how to change that setting, maybe she should google it. (She lives 3+ hours away, so I was trying to do all this while talking to her on the phone - she wouldn't even call from another phone).
Oh man, this is my life right here. Everyone in my family, and everyone in my office, is on iDevices, and I'm the only one who uses Android. Who do they constantly ask for tech support? Me. I can't tell you how many times I've googled something and then read the answer to someone because they couldn't figure out how to do this themselves.

I don't mind so much when it's an elderly person who genuinely can't figure out Google, but when my boss's iPhone's e-mail app stops working for the 40th time in two years and she still has no idea what to do about it....aaagh.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Squirrel away on July 01, 2015, 09:56:40 AM
One of my in-laws (living on a tiny pension) washes her car with a jet wash before she takes it for a professional car wash.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 01, 2015, 10:56:58 AM
One of my in-laws (living on a tiny pension) washes her car with a jet wash before she takes it for a professional car wash.

Some relatives clean their house before their house cleaners come. Also, they have house cleaners.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Squirrel away on July 01, 2015, 12:09:13 PM
One of my in-laws (living on a tiny pension) washes her car with a jet wash before she takes it for a professional car wash.

Some relatives clean their house before their house cleaners come. Also, they have house cleaners.

Actually I have to come clean (no pun intended ha) but I used to do that before my cleaner arrived.

That was back in the bad old days when we both earned a decent salary, had credit card debt and spent more than we made each and every month. Lol.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 01, 2015, 12:26:47 PM
One of my in-laws (living on a tiny pension) washes her car with a jet wash before she takes it for a professional car wash.

Some relatives clean their house before their house cleaners come. Also, they have house cleaners.

Actually I have to come clean (no pun intended ha) but I used to do that before my cleaner arrived.

Is there a good reason to do this?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Candace on July 01, 2015, 12:42:27 PM
I used to have a house cleaning service. We did need to pick our stuff up off the floor, and off the counters or dressers so that they could clean. Merry Maids also wanted us to get the stuff off the bathroom counter, which I thought was a bit much. But actually clean, as in remove dirt, or vacuum, or dust? No siree.

The main point is that a cleaning service is there to clean, but to expect them to pick up your clutter so they can clean is expecting too much of them. First of all, they don't know where your stuff goes, so for them to neaten it up could just cause more confusion. Second, depending on how much stuff their clients have lying around, it could take up so much time that they couldn't clean in a reasonable amount of time. Cleaning is different from de-cluttering and I understand that they have to draw the line at moving too much stuff around before cleaning. Even signing up to washing someone's dirty dishes as part of a cleaning service could set the service up for being taken advantage of.

In my area, Merry Maids sells their time by the hour at an hourly rate. The client gives a list of priorities and the maids go down the list until the time is done. I think that's a good way of doing things. That way if people leave their junk around everywhere and the service has to move it to clean, each task takes longer and fewer of the priorities get done. It's fair.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: BlueHouse on July 01, 2015, 02:10:55 PM
One of my in-laws (living on a tiny pension) washes her car with a jet wash before she takes it for a professional car wash.

Some relatives clean their house before their house cleaners come. Also, they have house cleaners.

Actually I have to come clean (no pun intended ha) but I used to do that before my cleaner arrived.

Is there a good reason to do this?
Yes, you want the housecleaners to spend their time doing the things that you don't want to do.  I have housecleaners come biweekly.  I like to keep my home nice and tidy, but sometimes I just don't get around to putting something away or I have an ongoing project.  Every other Monday, everything I own finds a home and many projects get done that would otherwise linger for months. 

I run the dishwasher and unload it before they come because I don't want them to spend the time doing that.  I usually empty the shredder into recycling before they come because I want it stapled in a paper bag and put into the recycling bin.  If I don't do that, sometimes I find it in a plastic bag in the trash bin. 

I have two bathrooms that I generally do not use and sometimes I put toothpaste in the sinks of those bathrooms just so they have the feeling of accomplishment. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Squirrel away on July 02, 2015, 04:49:59 AM
One of my in-laws (living on a tiny pension) washes her car with a jet wash before she takes it for a professional car wash.

Some relatives clean their house before their house cleaners come. Also, they have house cleaners.

Actually I have to come clean (no pun intended ha) but I used to do that before my cleaner arrived.

Is there a good reason to do this?

My cleaner was a cleaner from my work so I didn't want her thinking I was a total slob.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hummer on July 02, 2015, 10:07:14 AM
One of my in-laws (living on a tiny pension) washes her car with a jet wash before she takes it for a professional car wash.

Some relatives clean their house before their house cleaners come. Also, they have house cleaners.

Actually I have to come clean (no pun intended ha) but I used to do that before my cleaner arrived.

Is there a good reason to do this?
Yes, you want the housecleaners to spend their time doing the things that you don't want to do.  I have housecleaners come biweekly.  I like to keep my home nice and tidy, but sometimes I just don't get around to putting something away or I have an ongoing project.  Every other Monday, everything I own finds a home and many projects get done that would otherwise linger for months. 

I run the dishwasher and unload it before they come because I don't want them to spend the time doing that.  I usually empty the shredder into recycling before they come because I want it stapled in a paper bag and put into the recycling bin.  If I don't do that, sometimes I find it in a plastic bag in the trash bin. 

I have two bathrooms that I generally do not use and sometimes I put toothpaste in the sinks of those bathrooms just so they have the feeling of accomplishment.

I'm sorry but that is bizarre.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 02, 2015, 11:04:36 AM
Yes, you want the housecleaners to spend their time doing the things that you don't want to do.  I have housecleaners come biweekly.  I like to keep my home nice and tidy, but sometimes I just don't get around to putting something away or I have an ongoing project.  Every other Monday, everything I own finds a home and many projects get done that would otherwise linger for months. 

I run the dishwasher and unload it before they come because I don't want them to spend the time doing that.  I usually empty the shredder into recycling before they come because I want it stapled in a paper bag and put into the recycling bin.  If I don't do that, sometimes I find it in a plastic bag in the trash bin. 

I have two bathrooms that I generally do not use and sometimes I put toothpaste in the sinks of those bathrooms just so they have the feeling of accomplishment.

Do you also call it CDO instead of OCD, because the letters need to be in alphabetical order? xD
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Catbert on July 03, 2015, 04:06:08 PM
Boy od I have some financially irresponsible relatives.  Luckily they are all relateed to me by marriage rather than blood so it's easier to see the comedy.

A couple of years ago I sent 5K checks out of the blue to my step-children (and widow of step-son).  My step-son's widow called me literally in tears becasus I had gotten her out of a horrible debt.  She had borrowed money (car title loan??) at what she thought was 10% interest.  But she noticed that the balance barely budged.  Then she figured out it was 10% A MONTH.  Now this is a woman in her 50's who makes okay money (30 years as union grocery checker) but has no understanding of money.

I guess it's not surprising that this woman's ~20 yo daughter called her uncle from a car dealership to ask him about "a great deal" she was being offered.  She had an used car with a payment on it.  The new car dealer was offering to sell her a new car and finance it such that her payment was lower.  Her mom thought it was a good idea.  Her uncle told her to leave the dealership and then call him.  Luckily he convinced her it was a lousy deal.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on July 04, 2015, 12:25:51 AM
Ugh, just want to chime with a rant about my family. Didn't want to start a whole new thread and this seems just as good a place as any.

I'll start with my Dad and his wife. They are both in their early 70s. They bought a modest house 15 years ago but now have a mortgage that is over $30K more than they originally paid for the house (bought for ~$190K, owe ~$220K now). Both took social security the instant they were eligible rather than waiting and so their combined social security income is only a few hundred a month more than their mortgage payment. Although they have each been reasonably high income earners, they have always been self employed and I believe they have under-reported income for years to avoid taxes which is now resulting in less social security. They have no other savings at all, so they both continue to work part time although they complain about it. They have inherited a couple of windfalls in the past decade but those got spent and are gone.

When I was in my 20's and 30's, Dad was earning a lot of money but still racking up huge credit card debt, although none of it was spent on me, thankfully. His wife seems to be just as bad with money, having declared bankruptcy a few years before they got married. Hopefully they have paid off some of the massive credit card debt they once told me they had; I don't even ask.

I love my Dad, but he has made many, many bad financial and personal choices in his life. A few years ago he seemed to realize that he will have to work until he dies, which is a sad thought and his health is steadily failing now. While I don't want to see him suffer, his choices are his choices and not within my circle of control, so therefore his problems are not my problems. But, his wife has started to share their sad financial situation, which is why I know about the huge mortgage, low social security earned, and complete lack of savings over the course of their lives. It became clear from some of what she said that neither of them even keeps the check book properly balanced, so they flounder around from month to month. She insinuated the last time we saw them that I need to be helping them out financially. Um, no, that's just not going to happen. It would just be throwing good money after bad. Frankly their lifetime of total irresponsibility pisses me off a little bit.

My brother and his wife also are not saving money. They give and give to others, which is noble, but when it comes to money they have nothing left over for themselves. Now they are in their 40's, both self employed, and still not saving for retirement. Brother is a great provider but works in a physically demanding trade, which is becoming another concern as he ages. He seems aware of this and is trying to figure out how one of his sons can take over the business. I really hope that works out for him. They have a large family and one child is disabled and might not ever be able to live independently (I hope I'm wrong about that, but that seems to be the case.) Thankfully they stay out of debt. Other than their lack of savings for themselves, they seem to be pretty wise about money. When they do ask for money, it is always for a very noble cause, so I sometimes make a small contribution, but I honestly wish they would start considering their own financial futures just a little more.

On the bright side, my Mom is extremely frugal and debt-averse. Unfortunately, although she has saved up some money, she doesn't trust banks and considers any investment as "gambling," so she loses money to inflation every year. Also, in a fit of paranoia over social security running out, she started drawing social security at 62 despite the fact that all of her female relatives lived well into their 90's. She is now in her mid 70's and perfectly healthy. Thankfully, her big purchase decisions are very few and far between and her burn rate is remarkably low, so I suspect she will be fine. She's pretty much a poster child for how voluntarily curbing all expenses makes retirement possible.

If I won a huge lottery jackpot, sure I would help all of my family out. But, newsflash, I don't play the lottery, so that's never going to happen either.

/rant
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 04, 2015, 06:23:14 AM
Yeah. It's hard to watch people consistently screw themselves over with decision after decision.

Your parents leave their savings in paper cash? Oy. Don't they trust the federal government with the FDIC guarantee? What about during the extreme banking crisis we just had? No one with <$250k in a single bank lost a penny of that money, or even had to wait more than a couple days to pull out cash. Usually the FDIC takes over a failed bank on the weekend so it's normal business operations are not impacted, and it opens 9am Monday like always.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on July 04, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
^Yes I was able to convince my Mom of that.  At one point she got mad at a bank over some small fee and had ALL of her money in physical cash in her house stashed in places like fake plants, but when she showed me this I pointed out a house fire wiping out her money was more likely than losing it in a bank failure. So now she has it scattered all over town at several different banks in CD's and safe deposit boxes.

At least she has some actual money to her name . . . no one else in my family seems to be able to manage that for very long. If either my brother or Dad becomes physically unable to work, they will be in dire straits pretty quickly.

It just makes me sad :-(
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 04, 2015, 11:21:47 AM
She doesn't trust banks so she puts her money in safety deposit boxes...at banks. People are crazy.

The CDs are FDIC insured. Cash in a box in a vault is not.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on July 04, 2015, 11:39:38 AM
It sounds like your Dad & his wife should sell the house & live in a small apartment if the house is worth what they owe. Very sad indeed.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Catbert on July 04, 2015, 02:02:00 PM
After my MIL died her children were getting a small inheritance (~15K) from the sale of her trailer and lot.  One of my SIL's was really counting on the house closing on a particular date.   Closing slipped by several days (not an unusual occurrence IME).  She called her sister in a panic b/c they literally had no money and no food in the house.  I mean wouldn't you spend every penny of your pay check and your husband's military retirement check on crap if you were getting an inheritance in a week???  Me neither, but it seemed normal to her.  Her sister didn't have any money to send her, but referred her to her church pantry.   

Same SIL lives in a relatively rural area where a car is a necessity.  They always seem to over pay for vehicles and then finance at high interest rates.  They  have a Harley Davidson motorcycle bought used but is still upside down in value after owning for 3-4 years.  I can't imagine what the interest rate and term are.  SIL thinks of it as free b/c the payments are made via allotment over of her DHs retirement pay.  I thought they were starting to made slightly better vehicle decision b/c they kept one truck for long enough to pay off and then kept it.  But they must have gotten a title loan on it b/c it was repossessed about 6 months ago.  So then they had two jobs and one motorcycle.  Solution when you have no money?  She shifted to part-time so she could get rides and carpool!  After she inherited the 15K they got another vehicle.  Now in their situation I would have bought a 5K small car with cash and paid debts with the rest.  But no, they got the best (i.e., most expensive) vehicle with the least amount down they could find.  With their credit I don't want to imagine the interest rate or term.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: sleepyguy on July 05, 2015, 09:59:28 PM
From my GF's side, her cousin... he's quite older at 55 or so.  Let this be a warning for those who don't budget and "blow" money on everything.  Currently he's hit ROCK BOTTOM, kicked out of the house living back in with his 75yr old mom.  Basic summary is...

- He's always worked in IT, making around $90-150k/yr, but he was usually on contract for 1-2yrs.  Always jumping around.
- Never saves, ANYTHING... and as a contractor no RRSP (401k) matching programs or pension or what not.
- Has 3 boys, they have EVERY toy known to man... I recall when I first met his 3 sons (all under 10yrs old)... they all had Ipads, yes the top of line $700 models.  Ridonkulous, and he was preaching how "educational" they are... whatever, I read old skool paper books to my kids.
- Huge vacations all the time with family of 5, $$$.
- house is NOT paid off still til this day... yes he's 55 right now.  house is worth about $450k, they still have like 250k mortgage on it.
- owes other family members over $100k for taxes (he was a contractor and didn't set aside, absurd i know)
- lost a ton of $$$ on very poorly thought out business ventures.

So fast forward to present time,
- he's been unemployed for about 7yrs now, won't get a "low" paying job, he has 'niche' IT skillset, and thinks jobs making under $80k is 'beneath' him
- broken married due to poor money management (mostly so, but there were other things)
- avg. over $100k/yr for over 30yrs, has just about $100k networth (house split), but he owes $100k to family, so networth is zero or negative
- moved back in with is 75yr old mom
- begging family members for mortgage payments, he's been calling everyone discreetly, telling them he needs some cash for renovations to sell the house, etc... then "don't tell others" etc etc.
- he's got serious health issues due to stress (taken to emergency room a few times)

Sad story all around...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Goldielocks on July 06, 2015, 11:09:06 PM
One of my in-laws (living on a tiny pension) washes her car with a jet wash before she takes it for a professional car wash.

Some relatives clean their house before their house cleaners come. Also, they have house cleaners.

Actually I have to come clean (no pun intended ha) but I used to do that before my cleaner arrived.

Is there a good reason to do this?

ARGH  I tried a cleaning lady for a couple of months when my DH was laid up and I was at my wit's end. 

Yes, I had to do this (and clean, too not just the normal pickup of stuff), because the darn cleaning lady kept changing the day when she would come.   For things like a kids' special school event or whatever.  As a fellow Mom, I was saying yes to these reasonable requests, but....   This meant anywhere up to 10 days between cleaning, and you bet that there would always be a guest invited over at around day 9 that I had to make the washroom and living area presentable for..

Combine that with my DH's belief that he no longer had to do ANY house chores as the cleaning person would do it, I ended up paying someone and still putting in just as many hours, covering DH's now left undone picking up / dishes / quick sweep of kitchen chores.

Last straw was when I realized that she could afford to drive a nicer car than I did (New model Ford sedan, but still....).   Farewell!  Never again for anything but a one-off need in future.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Friar on July 07, 2015, 01:53:54 AM
Last straw was when I realized that she could afford to drive a nicer car than I did (New model Ford sedan, but still....).   Farewell!  Never again for anything but a one-off need in future.

As we know well on this forum, there is a difference between having a new car and being able to afford it ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Goldielocks on July 07, 2015, 02:31:07 AM
Last straw was when I realized that she could afford to drive a nicer car than I did (New model Ford sedan, but still....).   Farewell!  Never again for anything but a one-off need in future.

As we know well on this forum, there is a difference between having a new car and being able to afford it ;)

Don't I know it!  But paying her $25 per hour certainly must have helped.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 07, 2015, 05:39:42 AM
Last straw was when I realized that she could afford to drive a nicer car than I did (New model Ford sedan, but still....).   Farewell!  Never again for anything but a one-off need in future.

As we know well on this forum, there is a difference between having a new car and being able to afford it ;)

Don't I know it!  But paying her $25 per hour certainly must have helped.

Sounds like I should be a house cleaner as my retirement job. Why did I waste all that time getting all these degrees?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Gray Matter on July 07, 2015, 05:55:10 AM
Last straw was when I realized that she could afford to drive a nicer car than I did (New model Ford sedan, but still....).   Farewell!  Never again for anything but a one-off need in future.

As we know well on this forum, there is a difference between having a new car and being able to afford it ;)

Don't I know it!  But paying her $25 per hour certainly must have helped.

Sounds like I should be a house cleaner as my retirement job. Why did I waste all that time getting all these degrees?

I was paying $30-35/hour back in the good old (ignorant) days when I had a house cleaner.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 07, 2015, 06:19:28 AM
Last straw was when I realized that she could afford to drive a nicer car than I did (New model Ford sedan, but still....).   Farewell!  Never again for anything but a one-off need in future.

As we know well on this forum, there is a difference between having a new car and being able to afford it ;)

Don't I know it!  But paying her $25 per hour certainly must have helped.

Sounds like I should be a house cleaner as my retirement job. Why did I waste all that time getting all these degrees?

I was paying $30-35/hour back in the good old (ignorant) days when I had a house cleaner.

Assuming they didn't pay taxes on this, they are making more than a lot of people with graduate degrees.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Squirrel away on July 07, 2015, 06:44:56 AM
Wow, I only paid my cleaner about £8 an hour, now I feel guilty.:P Haha, she actually picked her own wage anyway.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on July 07, 2015, 07:18:16 AM

Assuming they didn't pay taxes on this, they are making more than a lot of people with graduate degrees.

Do you make this assumption about everyone who is self-employed?  Because self-employment taxes suck.  You HAVE to make an excellent hourly wage to come close to what you would make if you were working for a company.  And if you are self-employed you get no benefits.  So really, $30 an hour isn't that great.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 07, 2015, 07:56:10 AM

Assuming they didn't pay taxes on this, they are making more than a lot of people with graduate degrees.

Do you make this assumption about everyone who is self-employed?  Because self-employment taxes suck.  You HAVE to make an excellent hourly wage to come close to what you would make if you were working for a company.  And if you are self-employed you get no benefits.  So really, $30 an hour isn't that great.

Not necessarily that different, but it depends on the specifics of course. The only difference between earning $30/hour through a W-2 job and $30/hour through self employment is an adding an extra 7.65% of taxes but subtracting that extra 7.65% from your AGI for income tax purposes, and then subtracting another 18% of your income for your solo 401k if you can max that out. So in the end the total financial picture is more of a wash if you can max it out, especially since a lot of corporate 401k plans have really high fees. The only difference I can think of is that with a corporate job your employer might pay something towards your health plan. But they also provide a highly restricted set of choices. And now with the ACA you have a lot more choice getting health plans on your own, and if you have a family and are making $60k minus SE tax minus maxed solo 401k, your AGI would make your health plan free or close to free. So being self employed could actually be financially better.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on July 07, 2015, 07:59:39 AM
I am waiting for the final hammer to fall upon my uncle.  Far as I know he is still unemployed my mom said he feels betrayed by his former agency and claims some girls in the office were "out to get him."  Plus with my mom recently cutting him off I am curious will he call and visit her like it never happened.  He simply refuses to move into a cheaper apartment his current rent is $1500 I am not sure where he is getting money from unless he is running through his TSP at a high rate of speed.  It would be smarter for him to move into my late grandparents' house and split the bills with my aunt including the property taxes.   There is the factor he loathes my aunt (with good reason she did steal some Star Trek vintage toy from him plus her repellent personality) but financially it would be the smart thing to do.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: vivophoenix on July 07, 2015, 07:59:45 AM

Assuming they didn't pay taxes on this, they are making more than a lot of people with graduate degrees.

Do you make this assumption about everyone who is self-employed?  Because self-employment taxes suck.  You HAVE to make an excellent hourly wage to come close to what you would make if you were working for a company.  And if you are self-employed you get no benefits.  So really, $30 an hour isn't that great.

Not necessarily that different, but it depends on the specifics of course. The only difference between earning $30/hour through a W-2 job and $30/hour through self employment is an adding an extra 7.65% of taxes but subtracting that extra 7.65% from your AGI for income tax purposes, and then subtracting another 18% of your income for your solo 401k if you can max that out. So in the end the total financial picture is more of a wash if you can max it out, especially since a lot of corporate 401k plans have really high fees. The only difference I can think of is that with a corporate job your employer might pay something towards your health plan. But they also provide a highly restricted set of choices. And now with the ACA you have a lot more choice getting health plans on your own, and if you have a family and are making $60k minus SE tax minus maxed solo 401k, your AGI would make your health plan free or close to free. So being self employed could actually be financially better.

you are assuming they work full 40 hours a week. they have to travel around and that doesn't include the cut the corporation would take. i dont know of any under the table, cleaning  independent contractors make $30 an hour.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 07, 2015, 12:30:07 PM

Assuming they didn't pay taxes on this, they are making more than a lot of people with graduate degrees.

Do you make this assumption about everyone who is self-employed?  Because self-employment taxes suck.  You HAVE to make an excellent hourly wage to come close to what you would make if you were working for a company.  And if you are self-employed you get no benefits.  So really, $30 an hour isn't that great.

Not necessarily that different, but it depends on the specifics of course. The only difference between earning $30/hour through a W-2 job and $30/hour through self employment is an adding an extra 7.65% of taxes but subtracting that extra 7.65% from your AGI for income tax purposes, and then subtracting another 18% of your income for your solo 401k if you can max that out. So in the end the total financial picture is more of a wash if you can max it out, especially since a lot of corporate 401k plans have really high fees. The only difference I can think of is that with a corporate job your employer might pay something towards your health plan. But they also provide a highly restricted set of choices. And now with the ACA you have a lot more choice getting health plans on your own, and if you have a family and are making $60k minus SE tax minus maxed solo 401k, your AGI would make your health plan free or close to free. So being self employed could actually be financially better.

you are assuming they work full 40 hours a week. they have to travel around and that doesn't include the cut the corporation would take. i dont know of any under the table, cleaning  independent contractors make $30 an hour.

That makes more sense. $30/hr seemed very high, but I haven't priced this market because I clean my own house...you know every once in awhile :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: sleepyguy on July 13, 2015, 07:40:28 AM
Gave up giving investing advice for my MIL/FIL... they are paying MER through the roof for packaged MF though the bank for over 15yrs... something absurd like 2.5% or something.

I told them open a direct investing account, if you like Mutual Funds and no self rebalancing there are other options with only 1% mer or so (Mawer funds).  Falls on def ears... "we like what we have and the performance has been good for last few years" (ummm, to what benchmark?).  I check it out and Mawer was killing their comparitive funds with over less the MER over 10yrs.

They also said the "liked" the advisor as they've been with them over 10yrs... yeah of course, you are paying for his BMW.

I guess it could be worst... they are quite financially well off already.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: BlueHouse on July 13, 2015, 08:55:15 AM
Yes, you want the housecleaners to spend their time doing the things that you don't want to do.  I have housecleaners come biweekly.  I like to keep my home nice and tidy, but sometimes I just don't get around to putting something away or I have an ongoing project.  Every other Monday, everything I own finds a home and many projects get done that would otherwise linger for months. 

I run the dishwasher and unload it before they come because I don't want them to spend the time doing that.  I usually empty the shredder into recycling before they come because I want it stapled in a paper bag and put into the recycling bin.  If I don't do that, sometimes I find it in a plastic bag in the trash bin. 

I have two bathrooms that I generally do not use and sometimes I put toothpaste in the sinks of those bathrooms just so they have the feeling of accomplishment.
OMG, do you know me?  Yes, I have been told I have CDO in the past and I think it's hysterical so I tell others. 
Do you also call it CDO instead of OCD, because the letters need to be in alphabetical order? xD
OMG, do you know me?  Yes, I have been told I have CDO in the past and I think it's hysterical so I tell others. 
I admit, the whole "messing things up so the cleaners feel accomplishments" is strange.  But 2 different cleaners have said it can be difficult to tell the difference between a before and an after.  The point though is that I don't want to wash floors or bathtubs or toilets or mirrors or baseboards or shutters.  So if I spend time doing the easy stuff, then they will (I hope) do all of the things that I don't want to do. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on July 13, 2015, 09:47:36 AM
What is MER and MF?  I just got an email from my mom saying my aunt claims to have found a bus that will take her to the hospital for her next appointment for $5.  I am not inclined to believe her since she couldn't name the number or letter of the route in question.  Also my uncle is now in trouble concerning his car I will wait to see if it is routine or at risk of repossession.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 13, 2015, 09:51:36 AM
What is MER and MF?

Expense ratio (fees being charged as a percent of assets invested) and mutual fund
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hall11235 on July 13, 2015, 10:36:14 AM
I finally have one!

My uncle is the sterotypical salesman. Type A, the works. He is brilliant at what he does, however. Consistently top salesman at a fortune 250 company. Easily makes 400K a year.
Wife works part-time as a secretary at the local high school (if she doesn't, she "gets bored")
Bought each of his daughters a brand new Chevy dart when they turned 16 (they are 2 years apart)
Where I grew up in Minnesota, the length of you penis is measured by how fandangled your bass fishing boat is. This blows my mind: every two years he will by a new Fiberglass bass fishing boat with a 500hp engine; the kind of boat that you need to wear a mask to go full speed.
But it gets worse- His vehicle NEEDS to match the color of his Bass boat. And folks, he's not towing that incredibly light fiberglass bass boat with a Honda Fit. He uses, of course, the F-350 Superduty V12 Triton! Custom job of course, with the jacked up tires. He buys a new boat and a new truck every two years, and they always match. he has been doing this for at least ten years.

He is also known for his incredibly awful and ridiculous statements such as:
"Rugby is for the Gays. Real men play hockey"
"The Indians just need to accept that we conquered them. Conquered people have it shitty. That's history."

Face-punches  for flippin' dayz...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on July 13, 2015, 10:59:48 AM

Bought each of his daughters a brand new Chevy dart when they turned 16 (they are 2 years apart)

Where I grew up in Minnesota.... Fiberglass bass fishing boat with a 500hp engine; the kind of boat that you need to wear a mask to go full speed.

He uses, of course, the F-350 Superduty V12 Triton!



Lol at all of this. Those Chevy Dart's are a hot commodity, I was debating buying one but got some Fidelity Admiral funds instead.

And while not impossible, I'd assume that the engine is an outboard because you say Minnesota. So unless he has 2 engines on it, it is highly unlikely that it is 500hp.

And the triton never came in a V12.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hall11235 on July 13, 2015, 11:43:57 AM
Well Mtn, thank you for pointing out all of my hyperbole and imprecise knowledge of excessively sized trucks. lol.
And yes, his boat has two Mercury outboard engines.

 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on July 13, 2015, 11:53:28 AM
Well Mtn, thank you for pointing out all of my hyperbole and imprecise knowledge of excessively sized trucks. lol.
And yes, his boat has two Mercury outboard engines.

Is he going out on Mille Lacs or Superior? That really is overkill.

And I also pointed out your imprecise knowledge of compact cars, because I could :P
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hall11235 on July 13, 2015, 12:00:15 PM
He fishes on Lower Whitefish lake. It's up near Pequot Lakes, about an hour North of Brainerd. If it's overkill on Mille Lacs, it is overkill on Lower Whitefish.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Syonyk on July 13, 2015, 05:12:40 PM
Can you even /buy/ a gas F350? I though it was pretty much mandatory to have a diesel.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: NoraLenderbee on July 13, 2015, 10:19:03 PM

His vehicle NEEDS to match the color of his Bass boat.
 . . .
"Rugby is for the Gays."

His boat has to match his truck, and he's calling other men gay? That's hysterical.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hall11235 on July 14, 2015, 06:21:36 AM
Syonyk:
Yep, you can buy an F-350 without diesel. Both my uncle and my stepfather have one. Costs them 110 dollars each way to get to our cabin.

NoraLenderbee:
The funny thing is that he alternates between silver and red. That's it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: infogoon on July 14, 2015, 07:24:59 AM

His vehicle NEEDS to match the color of his Bass boat.
 . . .
"Rugby is for the Gays."

His boat has to match his truck, and he's calling other men gay? That's hysterical.

It matches his truck _and_ his shoes.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: 10dollarsatatime on July 14, 2015, 02:47:50 PM
Same brother as always...

We ran into each other at the grocery store.  He was driving a new giant truck.  I don't know what it was.  I don't care.  I know he doesn't need it either way.  They got rid of all the horses a couple of months ago.  And then this conversation:

B: I went to the dealership.  Told them I as $12,000 underwater on this stupid Nissan (insert name of SUV here) that I hate, and I asked for the guy that fixes the problem.  Now I'm only $9,000 underwater on this truck!

And a couple of minutes later:

B: We've paid off enough debt now that we could get an RV!
Me: Why?
B: To go camping.
Me: That's what tents are for.
B: But the beds and stove and (continuing list of things RVs have that tents don't.)
Me: OR. You could take that money and use it to pay off this truck faster.
B: What's the point?  I'm only going to have it for a couple of years.

Facepalm.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: RetiredAt63 on July 14, 2015, 04:56:05 PM
Nah. Real men dance.

Or as my DD and her friends used to say "If Irish Dance were easy it would be called hockey."


He is also known for his incredibly awful and ridiculous statements such as:
"Rugby is for the Gays. Real men play hockey"
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on July 14, 2015, 05:58:27 PM
^It's true: no one gets laid more than straight male dancers.

^^Thanks to another thread I have learned that the appropriate name for what he is planning to do with his RV is "Glamping", not camping.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: bzzzt on July 14, 2015, 06:02:50 PM
Can you even /buy/ a gas F350? I though it was pretty much mandatory to have a diesel.

Now it's either the 6.2L V8 or the B20 diesel. My company truck has the 6.2L with the 6-speed and it's my favorite off-roader so far. Electronic locking rear diff, manual transfer case, manual front hubs, and it doesn't sink the front axle like a diesel. Gets great fuel economy for a 1-ton 4x4 on all terrain tires. 13.5MPG highway @ 65MPH! Definitely not Mustachian.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: K-ice on July 14, 2015, 08:05:49 PM
I got in an argument with my BIL.

He was all proud. "I don't have a mortgage."

I know that's not correct since they have only been in their house a few years and make under 100K

He explains
"I have a LoC (over 260K) so I only need to pay the interest."

He says that like it's a good thing.

I explain that it is basically the same as a mtg, even worse in his case because he is not paying the principal. In fact on my house we also have a large LoC instead of a mortgage. But I still refer to it as a mtg until it was paid off.

He is still acts like I should be popping the Champagne for him.



Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on July 14, 2015, 08:42:48 PM
^If his house is collateral, which I'm sure it is unless he has some other giant assets that he put up to get such a large line of credit, it is basically a mortgage regardless of what he wants to call it. Of course you already know that. I'm not sure when the banks renamed "second mortgage" a "home equity line of credit", but it was a stroke of marketing genius.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: WGH on July 14, 2015, 09:32:23 PM
Oh I've got stories for days regarding my in laws. These are the stereotypical kids who give the rest of the millenials a bad name. When people say you are only poor because you are lazy it's these idiots that make the case for them.

Oh where to even begin. Let's start with the overview. 4 kids all in their 30s all living with or crashing with at various times during a week with their mother. Now my MIL does not work she is disabled and lives off of some crazy combination of disability and her deceased husbands SS and military pension and this nets a tidy sum of about $4,000 a month. Back to the 4 kids all are unemployed with student loan debt up the yin yang. One sells some pyramid scheme bath product crap here and there but that's about it. Oh they live in a three bedroom apartment and have been forcibly removed from at least 5 residences in the last 5 years for non payment of rent. During these evictions she stores her stuff and has lost storage spaces for non payment I don't know how many times. She has had to purchase new furniture so many times and it's always rent a center scheme type stuff. Her rent is reasonable about $1,000 a month but her utilities everywhere she goes are insane like $500 a month water bills! My wife says it's always been like that even growing up. They shower, wash a ton of clothes idk wtf but there you are. They also eat out all the time? Why? No one wants to buy groceries because the others will eat anything not nailed down! My SIL started hoarding food which caused ants and other bugs in the closet! MIL is currently being dragged into court for this place too so we will see if she gets evicted again. How can she not afford the rent? Let's go down the roster:

My BIL is a gym rat who works out all the time and then parties all night and sleeps all day. He couldn't attend his nephew (my sons) birthday party last week because it was at 4pm on a Sunday and was still asleep. When BIL is awake he uses MILs debit card to rack up gym memberships, protein powder, etc but wait it gets worse! He just bought a Costco membership but doesn't own a car. So he uses Uber to drive him the 1 1/2 miles to Costco and then another back to carry the groceries! He used her debit card last month to pay off warrants which ate up most of MIL money which caused the eviction! This type of activity is what caused the last 5 evictions and when it's pack up and get out time who does the packing? MIL ALL BY HERSELF! All the kids even without vehicles somehow manage to get out of dodge and help not a lick! He has a son by some one night stand who he never sees and apparently is being abused by the new boyfriend. He won't get a job to get a lawyer to fight for custody however. He's wrecked at least three cars that MIL bought cash with the life insurance money her husband left her when he died. One of those was a $40k Dodge Charger bought cash. All vehicles were wrecked due to drunk driving by the way. Hitting medians and breaking at least two axles. BIL has had several DWIs. They've also lost at least three other vehicles to title loans. And I am talking about $50k Mercedes ML500 paid off taken for nonpayment of a $5,000 title loan!

Second BIL is just a drifter who couch surfs 24/7 best that I can tell. Multiple DWIs, takes money from MIL. Does nothing with his life. Years ago he had his life kind of straight. He was with a girl and MIL paid for the deposit on a new build KB home. something like $20k for them. They break up and the home and the deposit end up lost for nothing. This had happened before when MIL had put down something like $50k on a McMansion. Like 4500 sq ft type. Lost that one too but at least that was meant for the whole zoo. I remember on MILs birthday one year they asked HER for money to take a trip to Houston to go party. She pays all their bills remember and they didn't so much as buy her a card but instead took money from her to go drink! I swear I am not making this stuff up....

SIL has the daughter who lives at the zoo. Years ago she makes MIL buy two brand new Jeep Grand Cherokees one for her and one for the baby daddy. She also has MIL furnish and renovate his house something like $100k. After all of this they break up and he kicks her and his daughter out. Keeping the truck and house. Now she's about to be 40 and desperately wanted another baby. So instead of you know looking for a partner to love, cherish, marry, etc. she hooks up with some guy she meets at a hotel. She's now pregnant and has no contact info for the guy and never will and decided to quit her job at the front desk of the hotel (where she met the guy) to raise the kid.

So TL;DR my MIL received a large life insurance payout when her husband died and has blown through near as I can tell $500-$700k on mainly cars, eating out, and deposits on new construction homes that fell through. She now supports four 30 year olds and their kids on SSDI and a military pension. All of whom treat her like crap and she's had multiple heart attacks. We've begged her to come and live with us on the condition that the leeches are not welcome. No dice on that.

<drops mic>
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: slugline on July 14, 2015, 09:39:59 PM
<drops mic>

:: claps ::

I can't decide whether to say you may be the "biggest winner" in this thread . . . or the "biggest loser." Somehow both sound correct.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tofuchampion on July 14, 2015, 09:45:42 PM
How does she keep getting leases with so many evictions? Hell, with even one eviction?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: clarkevii on July 14, 2015, 09:50:18 PM
Oh I've got stories for days regarding my in laws. These are the stereotypical kids who give the rest of the millenials a bad name. When people say you are only poor because you are lazy it's these idiots that make the case for them.

Oh where to even begin. Let's start with the overview. 4 kids all in their 30s all living with or crashing with at various times during a week with their mother. Now my MIL does not work she is disabled and lives off of some crazy combination of disability and her deceased husbands SS and military pension and this nets a tidy sum of about $4,000 a month. Back to the 4 kids all are unemployed with student loan debt up the yin yang. One sells some pyramid scheme bath product crap here and there but that's about it. Oh they live in a three bedroom apartment and have been forcibly removed from at least 5 residences in the last 5 years for non payment of rent. During these evictions she stores her stuff and has lost storage spaces for non payment I don't know how many times. She has had to purchase new furniture so many times and it's always rent a center scheme type stuff. Her rent is reasonable about $1,000 a month but her utilities everywhere she goes are insane like $500 a month water bills! My wife says it's always been like that even growing up. They shower, wash a ton of clothes idk wtf but there you are. They also eat out all the time? Why? No one wants to buy groceries because the others will eat anything not nailed down! My SIL started hoarding food which caused ants and other bugs in the closet! MIL is currently being dragged into court for this place too so we will see if she gets evicted again. How can she not afford the rent? Let's go down the roster:

My BIL is a gym rat who works out all the time and then parties all night and sleeps all day. He couldn't attend his nephew (my sons) birthday party last week because it was at 4pm on a Sunday and was still asleep. When BIL is awake he uses MILs debit card to rack up gym memberships, protein powder, etc but wait it gets worse! He just bought a Costco membership but doesn't own a car. So he uses Uber to drive him the 1 1/2 miles to Costco and then another back to carry the groceries! He used her debit card last month to pay off warrants which ate up most of MIL money which caused the eviction! This type of activity is what caused the last 5 evictions and when it's pack up and get out time who does the packing? MIL ALL BY HERSELF! All the kids even without vehicles somehow manage to get out of dodge and help not a lick! He has a son by some one night stand who he never sees and apparently is being abused by the new boyfriend. He won't get a job to get a lawyer to fight for custody however. He's wrecked at least three cars that MIL bought cash with the life insurance money her husband left her when he died. One of those was a $40k Dodge Charger bought cash. All vehicles were wrecked due to drunk driving by the way. Hitting medians and breaking at least two axles. BIL has had several DWIs. They've also lost at least three other vehicles to title loans. And I am talking about $50k Mercedes ML500 paid off taken for nonpayment of a $5,000 title loan!

Second BIL is just a drifter who couch surfs 24/7 best that I can tell. Multiple DWIs, takes money from MIL. Does nothing with his life. Years ago he had his life kind of straight. He was with a girl and MIL paid for the deposit on a new build KB home. something like $20k for them. They break up and the home and the deposit end up lost for nothing. This had happened before when MIL had put down something like $50k on a McMansion. Like 4500 sq ft type. Lost that one too but at least that was meant for the whole zoo. I remember on MILs birthday one year they asked HER for money to take a trip to Houston to go party. She pays all their bills remember and they didn't so much as buy her a card but instead took money from her to go drink! I swear I am not making this stuff up....

SIL has the daughter who lives at the zoo. Years ago she makes MIL buy two brand new Jeep Grand Cherokees one for her and one for the baby daddy. She also has MIL furnish and renovate his house something like $100k. After all of this they break up and he kicks her and his daughter out. Keeping the truck and house. Now she's about to be 40 and desperately wanted another baby. So instead of you know looking for a partner to love, cherish, marry, etc. she hooks up with some guy she meets at a hotel. She's now pregnant and has no contact info for the guy and never will and decided to quit her job at the front desk of the hotel (where she met the guy) to raise the kid.

So TL;DR my MIL received a large life insurance payout when her husband died and has blown through near as I can tell $500-$700k on mainly cars, eating out, and deposits on new construction homes that fell through. She now supports four 30 year olds and their kids on SSDI and a military pension. All of whom treat her like crap and she's had multiple heart attacks. We've begged her to come and live with us on the condition that the leeches are not welcome. No dice on that.

<drops mic>

Halfway through I was like this is soooooo drop mic level..... And then you did.

Bravo!

You do not happen to live in New Jersey?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: WGH on July 14, 2015, 09:51:20 PM
How does she keep getting leases with so many evictions? Hell, with even one eviction?

It's finally caught up with her. No property management company in town will touch her.

Some of the kids put the places in their names with fake check stubs from friends who own businesses.

She also rents houses from individuals who don't check credit, references, etc.

I could literally go on for days I'm thinking of starting a blog about their life....
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: WGH on July 14, 2015, 09:52:11 PM
Oh I've got stories for days regarding my in laws. These are the stereotypical kids who give the rest of the millenials a bad name. When people say you are only poor because you are lazy it's these idiots that make the case for them.

Oh where to even begin. Let's start with the overview. 4 kids all in their 30s all living with or crashing with at various times during a week with their mother. Now my MIL does not work she is disabled and lives off of some crazy combination of disability and her deceased husbands SS and military pension and this nets a tidy sum of about $4,000 a month. Back to the 4 kids all are unemployed with student loan debt up the yin yang. One sells some pyramid scheme bath product crap here and there but that's about it. Oh they live in a three bedroom apartment and have been forcibly removed from at least 5 residences in the last 5 years for non payment of rent. During these evictions she stores her stuff and has lost storage spaces for non payment I don't know how many times. She has had to purchase new furniture so many times and it's always rent a center scheme type stuff. Her rent is reasonable about $1,000 a month but her utilities everywhere she goes are insane like $500 a month water bills! My wife says it's always been like that even growing up. They shower, wash a ton of clothes idk wtf but there you are. They also eat out all the time? Why? No one wants to buy groceries because the others will eat anything not nailed down! My SIL started hoarding food which caused ants and other bugs in the closet! MIL is currently being dragged into court for this place too so we will see if she gets evicted again. How can she not afford the rent? Let's go down the roster:

My BIL is a gym rat who works out all the time and then parties all night and sleeps all day. He couldn't attend his nephew (my sons) birthday party last week because it was at 4pm on a Sunday and was still asleep. When BIL is awake he uses MILs debit card to rack up gym memberships, protein powder, etc but wait it gets worse! He just bought a Costco membership but doesn't own a car. So he uses Uber to drive him the 1 1/2 miles to Costco and then another back to carry the groceries! He used her debit card last month to pay off warrants which ate up most of MIL money which caused the eviction! This type of activity is what caused the last 5 evictions and when it's pack up and get out time who does the packing? MIL ALL BY HERSELF! All the kids even without vehicles somehow manage to get out of dodge and help not a lick! He has a son by some one night stand who he never sees and apparently is being abused by the new boyfriend. He won't get a job to get a lawyer to fight for custody however. He's wrecked at least three cars that MIL bought cash with the life insurance money her husband left her when he died. One of those was a $40k Dodge Charger bought cash. All vehicles were wrecked due to drunk driving by the way. Hitting medians and breaking at least two axles. BIL has had several DWIs. They've also lost at least three other vehicles to title loans. And I am talking about $50k Mercedes ML500 paid off taken for nonpayment of a $5,000 title loan!

Second BIL is just a drifter who couch surfs 24/7 best that I can tell. Multiple DWIs, takes money from MIL. Does nothing with his life. Years ago he had his life kind of straight. He was with a girl and MIL paid for the deposit on a new build KB home. something like $20k for them. They break up and the home and the deposit end up lost for nothing. This had happened before when MIL had put down something like $50k on a McMansion. Like 4500 sq ft type. Lost that one too but at least that was meant for the whole zoo. I remember on MILs birthday one year they asked HER for money to take a trip to Houston to go party. She pays all their bills remember and they didn't so much as buy her a card but instead took money from her to go drink! I swear I am not making this stuff up....

SIL has the daughter who lives at the zoo. Years ago she makes MIL buy two brand new Jeep Grand Cherokees one for her and one for the baby daddy. She also has MIL furnish and renovate his house something like $100k. After all of this they break up and he kicks her and his daughter out. Keeping the truck and house. Now she's about to be 40 and desperately wanted another baby. So instead of you know looking for a partner to love, cherish, marry, etc. she hooks up with some guy she meets at a hotel. She's now pregnant and has no contact info for the guy and never will and decided to quit her job at the front desk of the hotel (where she met the guy) to raise the kid.

So TL;DR my MIL received a large life insurance payout when her husband died and has blown through near as I can tell $500-$700k on mainly cars, eating out, and deposits on new construction homes that fell through. She now supports four 30 year olds and their kids on SSDI and a military pension. All of whom treat her like crap and she's had multiple heart attacks. We've begged her to come and live with us on the condition that the leeches are not welcome. No dice on that.

<drops mic>

Halfway through I was like this is soooooo drop mic level..... And then you did.

Bravo!

You do not happen to live in New Jersey?

Nope Albuquerque, New Mexico
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: vern on July 15, 2015, 12:53:46 AM
WGH, your inlaws should have their own reality show!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on July 15, 2015, 06:41:28 AM
.

Wow man - fucking wow.

Do you ever find their habits in your wife? Do you have a hard time fighting her natural urges to be like them? Just curious.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: jba302 on July 15, 2015, 07:36:59 AM

But it gets worse- His vehicle NEEDS to match the color of his Bass boat. And folks, he's not towing that incredibly light fiberglass bass boat with a Honda Fit. He uses, of course, the F-350 Superduty V12 Triton! Custom job of course, with the jacked up tires. He buys a new boat and a new truck every two years, and they always match. he has been doing this for at least ten years.


I was out on one of those pseudo-fancy lake Minnetonka dinner cruises last weekend with my wife's ex-husband (they paid for it, I sure as hell would not have coughed up $60 a ticket for mediocre food and a tour of the largest non-castle homes around). Good people, we get along well but this guy knows how to burn a dollar. He spent most of the time being annoyed for not being able to afford the houses on the lake. This is a guy that makes $180k+ a year with bonus, plus his wife's whatever salary putting them just over 200, and has probably maxed out most of his credit cards. Their hobbies include drinking, buying guitars (for the moment, last time it was RC airplanes) and staying in hotels in Minneapolis for the weekend (25 minutes away), while still not having a house paid off that he's lived in for 2 decades. His only non-insane spend recently was a Kia, which I suspect is because his monthly cash spend on interest payments is becoming an issue finally.

I also saw one of these trolling around the Excelsior dock -
http://crownline.com/330-sy/ 

$220k 860HP boat used exclusively for cruising around at walking speed and will never touch salt water let alone Lake Superior.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hall11235 on July 15, 2015, 07:43:18 AM
That behavior is not uncommon on those lakes. People will buy palatial faux-log mansions and literally only use them 2 months out of the year (The two months it's not arctic temperatures) and then not touch them. They don't rent them out, either. These are people who use "summer" as a verb- as in, "I summer in Pequot, but live in Eden Prairie." Eden Prairie is one of those place where money actually grows on trees.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on July 15, 2015, 07:47:51 AM
I am actually speechless.  Makes my own sorry relatives look almost tame. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: wenchsenior on July 15, 2015, 09:02:07 AM
Oh I've got stories for days regarding my in laws. These are the stereotypical kids who give the rest of the millenials a bad name. When people say you are only poor because you are lazy it's these idiots that make the case for them.

Oh where to even begin. Let's start with the overview. 4 kids all in their 30s all living with or crashing with at various times during a week with their mother. Now my MIL does not work she is disabled and lives off of some crazy combination of disability and her deceased husbands SS and military pension and this nets a tidy sum of about $4,000 a month. Back to the 4 kids all are unemployed with student loan debt up the yin yang. One sells some pyramid scheme bath product crap here and there but that's about it. Oh they live in a three bedroom apartment and have been forcibly removed from at least 5 residences in the last 5 years for non payment of rent. During these evictions she stores her stuff and has lost storage spaces for non payment I don't know how many times. She has had to purchase new furniture so many times and it's always rent a center scheme type stuff. Her rent is reasonable about $1,000 a month but her utilities everywhere she goes are insane like $500 a month water bills! My wife says it's always been like that even growing up. They shower, wash a ton of clothes idk wtf but there you are. They also eat out all the time? Why? No one wants to buy groceries because the others will eat anything not nailed down! My SIL started hoarding food which caused ants and other bugs in the closet! MIL is currently being dragged into court for this place too so we will see if she gets evicted again. How can she not afford the rent? Let's go down the roster:

My BIL is a gym rat who works out all the time and then parties all night and sleeps all day. He couldn't attend his nephew (my sons) birthday party last week because it was at 4pm on a Sunday and was still asleep. When BIL is awake he uses MILs debit card to rack up gym memberships, protein powder, etc but wait it gets worse! He just bought a Costco membership but doesn't own a car. So he uses Uber to drive him the 1 1/2 miles to Costco and then another back to carry the groceries! He used her debit card last month to pay off warrants which ate up most of MIL money which caused the eviction! This type of activity is what caused the last 5 evictions and when it's pack up and get out time who does the packing? MIL ALL BY HERSELF! All the kids even without vehicles somehow manage to get out of dodge and help not a lick! He has a son by some one night stand who he never sees and apparently is being abused by the new boyfriend. He won't get a job to get a lawyer to fight for custody however. He's wrecked at least three cars that MIL bought cash with the life insurance money her husband left her when he died. One of those was a $40k Dodge Charger bought cash. All vehicles were wrecked due to drunk driving by the way. Hitting medians and breaking at least two axles. BIL has had several DWIs. They've also lost at least three other vehicles to title loans. And I am talking about $50k Mercedes ML500 paid off taken for nonpayment of a $5,000 title loan!

Second BIL is just a drifter who couch surfs 24/7 best that I can tell. Multiple DWIs, takes money from MIL. Does nothing with his life. Years ago he had his life kind of straight. He was with a girl and MIL paid for the deposit on a new build KB home. something like $20k for them. They break up and the home and the deposit end up lost for nothing. This had happened before when MIL had put down something like $50k on a McMansion. Like 4500 sq ft type. Lost that one too but at least that was meant for the whole zoo. I remember on MILs birthday one year they asked HER for money to take a trip to Houston to go party. She pays all their bills remember and they didn't so much as buy her a card but instead took money from her to go drink! I swear I am not making this stuff up....

SIL has the daughter who lives at the zoo. Years ago she makes MIL buy two brand new Jeep Grand Cherokees one for her and one for the baby daddy. She also has MIL furnish and renovate his house something like $100k. After all of this they break up and he kicks her and his daughter out. Keeping the truck and house. Now she's about to be 40 and desperately wanted another baby. So instead of you know looking for a partner to love, cherish, marry, etc. she hooks up with some guy she meets at a hotel. She's now pregnant and has no contact info for the guy and never will and decided to quit her job at the front desk of the hotel (where she met the guy) to raise the kid.

So TL;DR my MIL received a large life insurance payout when her husband died and has blown through near as I can tell $500-$700k on mainly cars, eating out, and deposits on new construction homes that fell through. She now supports four 30 year olds and their kids on SSDI and a military pension. All of whom treat her like crap and she's had multiple heart attacks. We've begged her to come and live with us on the condition that the leeches are not welcome. No dice on that.

<drops mic>

Halfway through I was like this is soooooo drop mic level..... And then you did.

Bravo!

You do not happen to live in New Jersey?

Nope Albuquerque, New Mexico

This is, hands down, the single most horrifying post I've ever read on this board.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on July 15, 2015, 09:41:20 AM
This is why I never tell people my net worth.
I made the same income as you(people i know). I got here by not wasting it.
It's not my fault you're incompetent with money.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 15, 2015, 10:36:40 AM
Same brother as always...

We ran into each other at the grocery store.  He was driving a new giant truck.  I don't know what it was.  I don't care.  I know he doesn't need it either way.  They got rid of all the horses a couple of months ago.  And then this conversation:

B: I went to the dealership.  Told them I as $12,000 underwater on this stupid Nissan (insert name of SUV here) that I hate, and I asked for the guy that fixes the problem.  Now I'm only $9,000 underwater on this truck!
Facepunch for having a vehicle you hate in the first place. Obviously he loved it at purchase time but didn't check it out well enough to find all the shit he ended up hating.
I'm guessing it was a Nissan Armada (their biggest SUV, and cool-looking IMHO but your classic 15mpg trainwreck of waste).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 15, 2015, 10:45:41 AM
Oh I've got stories for days regarding my in laws.

***HOLY FUCKING SHIT***

<drops mic>

I just did a LITERAL headdesk, in the office, with CWs around. Who are these people, that I may mount a covert mission to sterilize them all before they fucking breed?*

*any more
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Vertical Mode on July 15, 2015, 10:58:09 AM
Oh I've got stories for days regarding my in laws. These are the stereotypical kids who give the rest of the millenials a bad name. When people say you are only poor because you are lazy it's these idiots that make the case for them.

Oh where to even begin. Let's start with the overview. 4 kids all in their 30s all living with or crashing with at various times during a week with their mother. Now my MIL does not work she is disabled and lives off of some crazy combination of disability and her deceased husbands SS and military pension and this nets a tidy sum of about $4,000 a month. Back to the 4 kids all are unemployed with student loan debt up the yin yang. One sells some pyramid scheme bath product crap here and there but that's about it. Oh they live in a three bedroom apartment and have been forcibly removed from at least 5 residences in the last 5 years for non payment of rent. During these evictions she stores her stuff and has lost storage spaces for non payment I don't know how many times. She has had to purchase new furniture so many times and it's always rent a center scheme type stuff. Her rent is reasonable about $1,000 a month but her utilities everywhere she goes are insane like $500 a month water bills! My wife says it's always been like that even growing up. They shower, wash a ton of clothes idk wtf but there you are. They also eat out all the time? Why? No one wants to buy groceries because the others will eat anything not nailed down! My SIL started hoarding food which caused ants and other bugs in the closet! MIL is currently being dragged into court for this place too so we will see if she gets evicted again. How can she not afford the rent? Let's go down the roster:

My BIL is a gym rat who works out all the time and then parties all night and sleeps all day. He couldn't attend his nephew (my sons) birthday party last week because it was at 4pm on a Sunday and was still asleep. When BIL is awake he uses MILs debit card to rack up gym memberships, protein powder, etc but wait it gets worse! He just bought a Costco membership but doesn't own a car. So he uses Uber to drive him the 1 1/2 miles to Costco and then another back to carry the groceries! He used her debit card last month to pay off warrants which ate up most of MIL money which caused the eviction! This type of activity is what caused the last 5 evictions and when it's pack up and get out time who does the packing? MIL ALL BY HERSELF! All the kids even without vehicles somehow manage to get out of dodge and help not a lick! He has a son by some one night stand who he never sees and apparently is being abused by the new boyfriend. He won't get a job to get a lawyer to fight for custody however. He's wrecked at least three cars that MIL bought cash with the life insurance money her husband left her when he died. One of those was a $40k Dodge Charger bought cash. All vehicles were wrecked due to drunk driving by the way. Hitting medians and breaking at least two axles. BIL has had several DWIs. They've also lost at least three other vehicles to title loans. And I am talking about $50k Mercedes ML500 paid off taken for nonpayment of a $5,000 title loan!

Second BIL is just a drifter who couch surfs 24/7 best that I can tell. Multiple DWIs, takes money from MIL. Does nothing with his life. Years ago he had his life kind of straight. He was with a girl and MIL paid for the deposit on a new build KB home. something like $20k for them. They break up and the home and the deposit end up lost for nothing. This had happened before when MIL had put down something like $50k on a McMansion. Like 4500 sq ft type. Lost that one too but at least that was meant for the whole zoo. I remember on MILs birthday one year they asked HER for money to take a trip to Houston to go party. She pays all their bills remember and they didn't so much as buy her a card but instead took money from her to go drink! I swear I am not making this stuff up....

SIL has the daughter who lives at the zoo. Years ago she makes MIL buy two brand new Jeep Grand Cherokees one for her and one for the baby daddy. She also has MIL furnish and renovate his house something like $100k. After all of this they break up and he kicks her and his daughter out. Keeping the truck and house. Now she's about to be 40 and desperately wanted another baby. So instead of you know looking for a partner to love, cherish, marry, etc. she hooks up with some guy she meets at a hotel. She's now pregnant and has no contact info for the guy and never will and decided to quit her job at the front desk of the hotel (where she met the guy) to raise the kid.

So TL;DR my MIL received a large life insurance payout when her husband died and has blown through near as I can tell $500-$700k on mainly cars, eating out, and deposits on new construction homes that fell through. She now supports four 30 year olds and their kids on SSDI and a military pension. All of whom treat her like crap and she's had multiple heart attacks. We've begged her to come and live with us on the condition that the leeches are not welcome. No dice on that.

<drops mic>

HOLY. SHIT.

Mic drop, indeed.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Basenji on July 15, 2015, 02:03:20 PM

<drops mic>

Halfway through I was like this is soooooo drop mic level..... And then you did.

Bravo!

You do not happen to live in New Jersey?

Nope Albuquerque, New Mexico

This is, hands down, the single most horrifying post I've ever read on this board.

I was going to post my in-law stories, then I read WGH's post. Instead I'm going to read it to my DH so he can appreciate his merely wasteful but not deranged family. Wow.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 15, 2015, 02:12:49 PM

<drops mic>

Halfway through I was like this is soooooo drop mic level..... And then you did.

Bravo!

You do not happen to live in New Jersey?

Nope Albuquerque, New Mexico

This is, hands down, the single most horrifying post I've ever read on this board.

I was going to post my in-law stories, then I read WGH's post. Instead I'm going to read it to my DH so he can appreciate his merely wasteful but not deranged family. Wow.

Go ahead and post yours. It can be cathartic.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 15, 2015, 02:16:34 PM
My mom's squatting in another 2-3 month free housing gig with no idea what she's gonna do next. I'm glad she enjoys having a seminary degree but by conservative estimates, she blew at least $70K in home sale proceeds and inheritances, and racked up at least that much debt, which will probably end up biting not only her but all of her kids in the ass. :(
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: WGH on July 15, 2015, 03:52:19 PM
.

Wow man - fucking wow.

Do you ever find their habits in your wife? Do you have a hard time fighting her natural urges to be like them? Just curious.

From time to time. She has notorious wasteful habits; leaving lights on all the time, etc. She's a spendthrift but has gotten much better. Mostly because of watching this downward spiral. She now clips coupons and wait for sales, buys used instead of new cars, etc. She would never ever be mustachian but she's improving.

The sad thing is I wrote that as a kind of stream of consciousness what I could recall of the top of my head. There's more quite a bit more and every week there is something new.

As a cautionary tale this is what can happen when you spoil your kids and never make them accountable or make them work to earn their clothes, cars, etc. Do you think BIL cared about totaling the $40k Dodge Charger? Heck no, he didn't work to pay for it. DW has told me numerous stories of how MIL would make excuses for the boys for not doing their chores and then do them herself. When they wanted to leave out of state for college in NY she forbade them to go citing how dangerous NY could be and how she would be alone without them. Essentially she made them scared of life, scared of taking risks, and enabled and covered up their bad habits. She also does the classic I want to be a friend to my kids instead of a parent.

MIL is 55 and I don't know how much longer she is going to last. I heard the kids had taken out a life insurance policy on her realizing that their golden goose wasn't going to last forever. Of course they were relying on MIL to  make the payments and she stopped a long time ago. Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 15, 2015, 03:59:41 PM
MIL is 55 and I don't know how much longer she is going to last. I heard the kids had taken out a life insurance policy on her realizing that their golden goose wasn't going to last forever. Of course they were relying on MIL to  make the payments and she stopped a long time ago.

Oh the irony.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: midweststache on July 15, 2015, 04:03:06 PM
MIL is 55 and I don't know how much longer she is going to last. I heard the kids had taken out a life insurance policy on her realizing that their golden goose wasn't going to last forever. Of course they were relying on MIL to  make the payments and she stopped a long time ago. Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

I hope they already know that hitting up you and DW isn't an option? Has that been attempted yet?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: russianswinga on July 15, 2015, 04:29:21 PM
^It's true: no one gets laid more than straight male dancers.

That's not why I dance, but I do it all the same!


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/310593_2468883125521_1245660466_n.jpg?oh=6f827bca0267f554ba223a3ccd3bc76a&oe=565177BB)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: WGH on July 15, 2015, 05:44:35 PM
MIL is 55 and I don't know how much longer she is going to last. I heard the kids had taken out a life insurance policy on her realizing that their golden goose wasn't going to last forever. Of course they were relying on MIL to  make the payments and she stopped a long time ago. Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

I hope they already know that hitting up you and DW isn't an option? Has that been attempted yet?

When we first moved back to NM they all tried in rapid succession it was actually kind of funny. But they know damn well we won't support them. DW would sooner burn the house down then let them stay with us.

It actually kind of boggles the mind that there are people out there that have such a complete lack of empathy and morals that if you were rich and allowed them to mooch off of you they would do so their entire lives and never think twice about it! How can people not feel guilty?!

I am afraid they will try the but it's for my kid angle which is what they do with MIL. There is nothing so distasteful as watching perfectly healthy adults use their mother to babysit and pay for their kids every need while they go out and party on her dime. If it was me and they took off and left the kid while I was in the shower or something I would call CPS and report abandonment.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sofa King on July 15, 2015, 08:43:32 PM
Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

THIS is when it will be fun to watch them become homeless!!! They will all get what they deserve one day. I have a brother in-law that is similar and I am just waiting for the day when his Mommy can't take care of him anymore like he is till 12 years old (he is 42 now and has never lived on his own ever and the last job he had was when he was in his mid 20's and that was only part time).  Just a matter of time now.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SwordGuy on July 15, 2015, 09:00:10 PM
Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

THIS is when it will be fun to watch them become homeless!!! They will all get what they deserve one day. I have a brother in-law that is similar and I am just waiting for the day when his Mommy can't take care of him anymore like he is till 12 years old (he is 42 now and has never lived on his own ever and the last job he had was when he was in his mid 20's and that was only part time).  Just a matter of time now.

Just be ready to shoot them if they snap and attempt to cause you harm.   People who are highly spoiled over-aged children sometimes do that when they no longer get what they feel they are entitled to.   It's the equivalent of a two-year old's temper tantrum only with a gun.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Vertical Mode on July 15, 2015, 09:55:12 PM
Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

THIS is when it will be fun to watch them become homeless!!! They will all get what they deserve one day. I have a brother in-law that is similar and I am just waiting for the day when his Mommy can't take care of him anymore like he is till 12 years old (he is 42 now and has never lived on his own ever and the last job he had was when he was in his mid 20's and that was only part time).  Just a matter of time now.

Just be ready to shoot them if they snap and attempt to cause you harm.   People who are highly spoiled over-aged children sometimes do that when they no longer get what they feel they are entitled to.   It's the equivalent of a two-year old's temper tantrum only with a gun.

Especially in cases where significant economic outpatient care is involved:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/nyregion/thomas-gilbert-hedge-fund-manager-death.html?_r=0
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on July 16, 2015, 07:52:01 AM
.

Wow man - fucking wow.

Do you ever find their habits in your wife? Do you have a hard time fighting her natural urges to be like them? Just curious.

From time to time. She has notorious wasteful habits; leaving lights on all the time, etc. She's a spendthrift but has gotten much better. Mostly because of watching this downward spiral. She now clips coupons and wait for sales, buys used instead of new cars, etc. She would never ever be mustachian but she's improving.

The sad thing is I wrote that as a kind of stream of consciousness what I could recall of the top of my head. There's more quite a bit more and every week there is something new.

As a cautionary tale this is what can happen when you spoil your kids and never make them accountable or make them work to earn their clothes, cars, etc. Do you think BIL cared about totaling the $40k Dodge Charger? Heck no, he didn't work to pay for it. DW has told me numerous stories of how MIL would make excuses for the boys for not doing their chores and then do them herself. When they wanted to leave out of state for college in NY she forbade them to go citing how dangerous NY could be and how she would be alone without them. Essentially she made them scared of life, scared of taking risks, and enabled and covered up their bad habits. She also does the classic I want to be a friend to my kids instead of a parent.

MIL is 55 and I don't know how much longer she is going to last. I heard the kids had taken out a life insurance policy on her realizing that their golden goose wasn't going to last forever. Of course they were relying on MIL to  make the payments and she stopped a long time ago. Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

Not even sure what to say man. ::e-beer::
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Candace on July 16, 2015, 07:54:01 AM
Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

THIS is when it will be fun to watch them become homeless!!! They will all get what they deserve one day. I have a brother in-law that is similar and I am just waiting for the day when his Mommy can't take care of him anymore like he is till 12 years old (he is 42 now and has never lived on his own ever and the last job he had was when he was in his mid 20's and that was only part time).  Just a matter of time now.

"Fun" to watch someone become homeless? Are you serious? Even if they deserve it, actually enjoying witnessing it says something not so nice about you. Watching their downfall will not make you more superior.

Not to mention, it is in your best interest for them to have what they need, so they don't come looking to you for a handout when their mother is gone. As someone else mentioned, they could prove to be a problem for you.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on July 16, 2015, 07:56:54 AM
Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

THIS is when it will be fun to watch them become homeless!!! They will all get what they deserve one day. I have a brother in-law that is similar and I am just waiting for the day when his Mommy can't take care of him anymore like he is till 12 years old (he is 42 now and has never lived on his own ever and the last job he had was when he was in his mid 20's and that was only part time).  Just a matter of time now.

"Fun" to watch someone become homeless? Are you serious? Even if they deserve it, actually enjoying witnessing it says something not so nice about you. Watching their downfall will not make you more superior.

Not to mention, it is in your best interest for them to have what they need, so they don't come looking to you for a handout when their mother is gone. As someone else mentioned, they could prove to be a problem for you.

lol - I think the guy is just really mad about his BIL and hopefully not truly excited for the homelessness of people he does not even know.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Vertical Mode on July 16, 2015, 08:00:32 AM
Once she has passed on I don't know what they are going to do.

THIS is when it will be fun to watch them become homeless!!! They will all get what they deserve one day. I have a brother in-law that is similar and I am just waiting for the day when his Mommy can't take care of him anymore like he is till 12 years old (he is 42 now and has never lived on his own ever and the last job he had was when he was in his mid 20's and that was only part time).  Just a matter of time now.

"Fun" to watch someone become homeless? Are you serious? Even if they deserve it, actually enjoying witnessing it says something not so nice about you. Watching their downfall will not make you more superior.

Not to mention, it is in your best interest for them to have what they need, so they don't come looking to you for a handout when their mother is gone. As someone else mentioned, they could prove to be a problem for you.

lol - I think the guy is just really mad about his BIL and hope
fully not truly excited for the homelessness of people he does not even know.

I think there's a certain degree of schadenfreude in this post, in that the BIL will be getting his due comeuppance when SHTF. I don't think he's ACTUALLY going to revel in it should this guy become homeless, that would be cruel.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ducky19 on July 16, 2015, 08:04:51 AM
Oh my, where do I begin...?

My parents have never been good with money, although I didn't realize it when I was growing up (I just thought we were poor). It wasn't until I met my wife that I realized that they just suck at handling money. They live in a modest 2-3 bedroom house that they bought back in the late 90's for under 90k, but they have refinanced a couple of times and pulled every last nickel of equity out of it (I know for a fact they have a second mortgage or HELOC that they used to fix my mom's car). Mom is 68 and still working close to full time plus drawing social security. Dad started delivering travel trailers a couple of years ago. The truck he already owned "didn't have enough power", so he promptly went out and spent $60k+ on a brand new Dodge. His payments and insurance run over $1k/mo and he wonders why he can't seem to get ahead (not to mention it gets about 8 MPG). They are the type that will go out to eat several times a week then fret about being able to pay the bills. I know they've got credit card debt, but no idea how much. I do know that they will both hide debt from each other. Mom loves shopping at Von Mauer on the store card and justifies overspending because it's zero interest.

That's just the start. My grandfather passed away a couple of years ago, and part of my dad's inheritance is around 30 acres of farmland. He plans to sell it to my uncle who still farms the family place for about $10k/acre. He started talking about once he gets that money that there's a place in the country he has his eye on. We asked if it would be downsizing, but of course it would be upsizing instead because it has "more room - this place just doesn't have enough room". No dad, that just means you've got too much shit! He was also talking about selling their perfectly good camper and getting a new one - he's already got every last penny of the last large chunk of change that will come into his life spent in his head. It would be comical if it weren't my parents. Their attitude towards money has taken a huge toll on them, not just emotionally but I can see it physically weighing them down.

My wife and I are trying to decide how I should approach them about this. I know with the $300k from the land and my mom's 401k (around $100k), they could both stop working and be set for the rest of their lives if they would only change their bad financial habits. I plan to get my dad the audiobook of "Your Money or Your Life" to listen to while he's on the road, but I just don't know how receptive he'll be.

My sister and her husband are younger versions of my parents, but at least bought their first home before they were 40 and haven't been tapping it's equity. They are always short of money though, even though they both have decent jobs and my sister has her own cake business on the side.

My brother and his wife I suspect are slightly mustachian - they do tend to overspend on cars/house to keep up with the Joneses, but they both have decent jobs and both work part time jobs as well. We haven't discussed it, but I think they are quietly working toward FI and have hopes to retire in their mid 50s.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on July 16, 2015, 08:22:42 AM
Especially in cases where significant economic outpatient care is involved:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/nyregion/thomas-gilbert-hedge-fund-manager-death.html?_r=0

That's a scary story.

I do wonder how hard it is going to be to say "no" to any desperate family members down the line. To date there has been a couple of really awkward phone calls with two different people.

Also I've known a couple of would-be moochers who have vilified their more prudent family members for being "greedy tightwads" who "won't share and don't care about family." So we'll have to steel ourselves to that eventual fate at a minimum.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Apples on July 16, 2015, 08:48:10 AM
I have a cousin who we helped when she started divorcing her husband and needed to get out of their house with her son.  She lived in our upstairs, and we occasionally babysat her son for her in the evening.  Also, my dad helped fix her car, convinced her to change to a better lawyer, and is generally helpful.  But she wouldn't get a job because receptionist jobs are boring and she won't work in a factory.  And she can't work off hours because she has a toddler.  The only person around who still gives her pity and attention is my mom, who always agrees that the world is just so unfair, she deserves better, yes you can complain all day I totally agree, no need to be proactive in any way.

So after all the help my DH and I, and my dad, give to her, I hear my cousin tell her mom that the only person willing to help her is her aunt (my mom).  She said this while laying in my guest bedroom using my guest bathroom sharing our kitchen and living room with us and her toddler.  For 4.5 months, before she moved to my parent's house because I wasn't having it anymore.  After this experience, I might write the desperate family member one $500 check (at this stage in life, maybe more later), give them suggestions on jobs and housing, and see what they do.  It's way too easy to be used, and we ended up in a situation where we were either putting up with her or kicking her and her toddler out, which I don't have the heart to do.  I tried to explain our budget, and she said we were "rich" and "sharing the wealth" with her.  So I at this point don't mind being vilified by her, and will hesitate to give the same amount of help in the future.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on July 16, 2015, 01:29:42 PM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?

The country hippies grow their own. For real... And much of their food. And they live in very moustachian houses. And drive old cars. They might not save much b/c they don't make much in the first place. Got cozy with a few twenty years ago. Hung around with them for a while and then remembered I didn't like being perpetually broke and got serious again about graduating with my engineering degree.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on July 16, 2015, 01:42:58 PM

I consulted my weed costs authority for you and apparently "good stuff" (ie what middle aged people who still smoke would get, not high school kids) is $60 for an 1/8 ounce (3.5 grams). That's about 3 joints depending on how you roll them (with tobacco and how much, etc). Prices go down if you buy in bulk, like you know Costco style, or buy the shitty stuff.

Price varies by where you are and who you know, and of course, what quality you are buying. For an eighth to be 3 joints, they must be some massive joints. I know some heavy smokers with high tolerance and they say that a good quality eight that they buy for $50 lasts them an entire week. For them, that means that they are smoking multiple bowls each night after work. Rolling joints in their experience is a complete waste of money. Instead they recommend getting a one-hitter or packing a small bowl. The only times that they pack a full bowl is if they are toking with friends and are going to be passing it around.

That said, the future of weed is going to be wax and oil concentrates. I know a few people that will buy a gram of wax for maybe $40-50, and it can last them a month, in which they are getting a pretty good high each month. This reduces their cost significantly and as they use a vape pen, it is easier on their throat.

MgoSam apparently knows way more about this that I do! Maybe he said it was 5 joints depending on the roll? Either way, costs can add up quickly!

Just doin' my job! That said, it is high time that marijuana be decriminalized (pun intended).

Saw a sign on a pizza place this week that said "legalize marinara!" I had to do a quick double take to understand what I saw. ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 16, 2015, 02:07:57 PM
I have a cousin who we helped...
What a fuckin' ingrate.

Quote from: Joe Average
**All the things**
Easy on the necroposting, Joe! BREAAAAAATHE! ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Vertical Mode on July 16, 2015, 02:11:27 PM
Quote from: Joe Average
**All the things**
Easy on the necroposting, Joe! BREAAAAAATHE! ;)

Joe definitely posts with above-average frequency ;-)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 16, 2015, 02:15:55 PM
Put her a "tiny house" in the back yard?
Oh, we have room in the house as is. I do like the idea of a tiny house back there, and I have friends who'd help... ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on July 16, 2015, 02:31:29 PM
None of my relatives "get it", other than maybe one of my siblings. My parents live in a 2000+ sq ft home, just the two of them, have cable TV with premium channels(HBO, etc...)! Have two cars even though my dad doesn't work anymore. One of their windows is broken and boarded up, and has been for 2+ years, leaking cold air into the hot desert every summer while they enjoy their HBO and Showtime! Gah... pisses me off just thinking about it. Fix the goddamn window! I'm not asking that much...

Meanwhile, for their 30th anniversary a while back, my siblings contact me with the notion of throwing a big party for them. After squabbling over where to have the event(Park was out of the running due to heat, my place was too small, etc...). Anyway, despite repeated pleas to not spend money on ridiculous things since their home needed repairs like a new window, and if we really wanted to do something nice we could fix it... instead my sister spend hundreds of dollars on food and decorations for a party of like 25 people. Meanwhile the window is still broken, but hey the board now has some nice curtains over it!!!

Have a window installation cookout. Look Mom and Dad - we bought you a window.

I had a coworker once upon a time. Well eduated, well paid. Married to a good old boy for many years. The roof went bad over a spare bedroom. Rather than fix it - they just closed the door and never went in there. I can only imagine what that looked like or how it smelled - like those abandoned places pictures?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on July 16, 2015, 03:07:25 PM
Quote from: Joe Average
**All the things**
Easy on the necroposting, Joe! BREAAAAAATHE! ;)

Joe definitely posts with above-average frequency ;-)

I think he's going through every single thread and responding to anything. regardless of how old the content is. lol props for threading through so many threads.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Spiffsome on July 16, 2015, 06:28:08 PM
I have a cousin who we helped ...

I have an in-law who's been bailed out by her mother for most of her life. In a blazing argument with my DH she screamed, "Nobody ever helps me! I'm on my own!" Did she just forget the previous decade, is cognitive dissonance really that strong, or is it a psychological defence mechanism?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MarciaB on July 16, 2015, 06:51:00 PM
Oh my, where do I begin...?

 They live in a modest 2-3 bedroom house that they bought back in the late 90's for under 90k, but they have refinanced a couple of times and pulled every last nickel of equity out of it (I know for a fact they have a second mortgage or HELOC that they used to fix my mom's car). Mom is 68 and still working close to full time plus drawing social security. Dad started delivering travel trailers a couple of years ago. The truck he already owned "didn't have enough power", so he promptly went out and spent $60k+ on a brand new Dodge. His payments and insurance run over $1k/mo and he wonders why he can't seem to get ahead (not to mention it gets about 8 MPG). They are the type that will go out to eat several times a week then fret about being able to pay the bills. I know they've got credit card debt, but no idea how much. I do know that they will both hide debt from each other. Mom loves shopping at Von Mauer on the store card and justifies overspending because it's zero interest.


I have a similar tale, but it's my in-laws. And for extra fun, I'm a widow so I'm dealing with this without their son.

They purchased land in CA in the mid-1970's for about $35,000. Then built a modest home on it for about another $100,000 or so. And in the late 80's put a big addition on that for another $200,000 or so (not that there are adequate records of course). So you would think that they would be long done with the mortgage(s) that bought the land and managed the construction, right?

And you would be wrong. Their current mortgage is over $600,000! Yes folks, these people are IN THEIR 80s and have a jumbo mortgage. Because they refi every couple of years to what, pay down credit card debt, get a lower rate, make a mortgage broker happy, put their heads farther up their asses...???

Simply stunning. Horrifying in its scope. And it is compromising their last years.

They've been overspending their income since the late 1950s when they got married. Blows my mind.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Michael792 on July 16, 2015, 07:30:45 PM
Have an aunt and uncle nearing their fifties. They have built several houses during their marriage, and have a LOT of nice things. Their newest house is probably their last one, but the walk in closet and bathroom is almost half the size of the house. They built in an extra bedroom for guests, which is cool when us or other family visits, but everyone's so spread out that rarely happens. My aunt is a spendthrift as well. They do have an autistic son who will always need caretakers, so they know that they have to pay for him going forward (not knocking this. B's a cool guy, but he'll always be a kid in his head. He needs the care).

When I was on leave, I was staying with them for a few days. Aunt J was complaining about how they'd never retire, and so I said something along the lines of "This isn't for everyone, but if you read MMM you can learn how to retire and live on 20-30k a year. She tells me, "That's impossible, not with what we spend. My biggest problem right now is I am a shopaholic." So I tell her she could still read it to learn some ways to change that if she wants, and she just shook her head. I don't get why you'd be worried about retiring and then refuse to change so that you wouldn't have to worry. Whatever.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on July 16, 2015, 07:53:28 PM
Quote from: Joe Average
**All the things**
Easy on the necroposting, Joe! BREAAAAAATHE! ;)

Joe definitely posts with above-average frequency ;-)

Sorry - speeding through the thread on a slow day. Leads to alot of posts in quick succession. ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sibley on July 16, 2015, 07:56:04 PM
Quote from: Joe Average
**All the things**
Easy on the necroposting, Joe! BREAAAAAATHE! ;)

Joe definitely posts with above-average frequency ;-)

Sorry - speeding through the thread on a slow day. Leads to alot of posts in quick succession. ;)

I've done it too :) Though I just had 3 more projects put on my plate at work, so hopefully will actually have enough work to do.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on July 17, 2015, 05:17:50 AM
Their current mortgage is over $600,000! Yes folks, these people are IN THEIR 80s and have a jumbo mortgage. Because they refi every couple of years to what, pay down credit card debt, get a lower rate, make a mortgage broker happy, put their heads farther up their asses...???

Simply stunning. Horrifying in its scope. And it is compromising their last years.

Not to absolves you in-laws of their personal responsibility, but it sounds like the most recent mortgage broker and underwriter need to be taken out back and shot.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 17, 2015, 08:17:09 AM
Not to absolves you in-laws of their personal responsibility, but it sounds like the most recent mortgage broker and underwriter need to be taken out back and shot.
I'm sure it's easy to rationalize (just like those reverse mortgages peddled on daytime TV): "they don't have long to live and they can't take it with them... why not let them enjoy life?"
There's a shared responsibility there. Adults should make adult choices, and they should also be given good advice by professionals. Sounds like repeated failure on both sides here. Anyone who bought into that property the way they did should be rich by now, not drowning in debt from it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on July 17, 2015, 08:20:04 AM
Not to absolves you in-laws of their personal responsibility, but it sounds like the most recent mortgage broker and underwriter need to be taken out back and shot.
I'm sure it's easy to rationalize (just like those reverse mortgages peddled on daytime TV): "they don't have long to live and they can't take it with them... why not let them enjoy life?"
There's a shared responsibility there. Adults should make adult choices, and they should also be given good advice by professionals. Sounds like repeated failure on both sides here. Anyone who bought into that property the way they did should be rich by now, not drowning in debt from it.

Ahhh, the thought of a society where people aren't predominately selfish pricks. One day. :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MarciaB on July 17, 2015, 12:36:58 PM
Not to absolves you in-laws of their personal responsibility, but it sounds like the most recent mortgage broker and underwriter need to be taken out back and shot.
I'm sure it's easy to rationalize (just like those reverse mortgages peddled on daytime TV): "they don't have long to live and they can't take it with them... why not let them enjoy life?"
There's a shared responsibility there. Adults should make adult choices, and they should also be given good advice by professionals. Sounds like repeated failure on both sides here. Anyone who bought into that property the way they did should be rich by now, not drowning in debt from it.

Yes they should be very wealthy. Especially since the property is in a part of CA that has enjoyed stratospheric property appreciation. That's the only way they could have continually refinanced and pulled out equity (because how else do you get to a 600K+ mortgage when you initial borrowings totaled somewhere around 350K - 400K??

Insanity!!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: OlyFish on July 18, 2015, 12:22:02 PM
Relative is leasing an Escalade and just bought a Cartier watch and diamond earrings, goes on multiple resort vacations every year. Well I just found out this is all being financed through a huge HELOC. But they ask me why I clean my own house "when you make so much money!". Um, because I want to keep it?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on July 18, 2015, 11:09:58 PM
I don't get why you'd be worried about retiring and then refuse to change so that you wouldn't have to worry. Whatever.

Maybe she wasn't complaining but instead is just stating it as a fact. I think it's somewhat better that she's aware that her shopping desires is holding back from saving for retirement, instead of the people that excuse their expenses on being 'normal,' or because they HAVE to buy a new car and go on multiple international vacations that they can ill afford.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LeRainDrop on July 19, 2015, 01:22:02 PM
As I was reading this I was thinking about all the crazy moms. (mine included)

I recalled going to see her and my father a year or two ago. I drove down in my 17 year old Honda. She was visually dismayed. She was upset that I had an old beater. She exclaimed "you and your wife are professionals, you should have nicer cars - like BMW's or Mercedes"  She went on to say "You used to have nicer cars when you were poor" . Umm. Yeah mom, that's why I was poor. LOL (And I'm still poor, paying of debt and stupid mistakes...)  Even after I explain all of this she still doesn't get it. Worried about what other people will think.

I LOVE IT when other people (who worry about other people) think I'm poor when I might make twice as much as they do. So my cars are old. So I'm not wearing fancy clothes. We're clean, well fed and have a nice roof over our heads. I get this attitude from the 1980s (when I was a kid) and everybody was worrying so much about whether everybody had that stupid little alligator on their shirts (Izod). It was then that I (apparently) resolved to be a contrarian. ;)

Oh, goodness, I love the duality, too!  Another one is that I take care of the things I own, whereas my mom doesn't seem to care about banging up her things -- or anyone else's.  When she knocks things into my walls, etc. and I tell her to be careful, she's like, "Don't be so sensitive.  You're so uptight."  Later, she's like, "Your car is so nice.  Mine's all old and beat up."  Uh, cause and effect?

Also, turns out those Izod alligator shirts are actually Lacoste crocodile shirts:  https://bestofthe80s.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/izod-alligator-shirts/  :-)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: The_Captain on July 21, 2015, 12:54:01 AM
Went to visit my sister up at her new weekend trailer she bought, and at some point during the weekend the topic of money came up. My sister's philosophy on spending was that as a 30-something with a young child + a house etc. it's just the time of life where she's expected to have a pile of debt and hope that said pile gets worn away by pay increases and reduced costs as her kids grow up in time for retirement.

At one point she mentioned that she doesn't really keep track of how much money she spends, she just puts everything on the line of credit and all the paychecks go into the line of credit, and some months it goes and and some months it goes down. That one in particular was absolutely baffling for my fiancee, though I was a bit more used to it given my family's consumerist lifestyles.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mustachepungoeshere on July 21, 2015, 01:51:39 AM
A relative was griping about another member of the family:

"He's so stingy. When they got married, he wouldn't even let her buy magazines!"

She said this like it was the biggest crime on earth. I found it fairly reasonable, especially as I'm fairly sure "wouldn't let her" is an exaggeration of "they got on a budget".
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: forummm on July 21, 2015, 07:07:01 AM
Went to visit my sister up at her new weekend trailer she bought, and at some point during the weekend the topic of money came up. My sister's philosophy on spending was that as a 30-something with a young child + a house etc. it's just the time of life where she's expected to have a pile of debt and hope that said pile gets worn away by pay increases and reduced costs as her kids grow up in time for retirement.

At one point she mentioned that she doesn't really keep track of how much money she spends, she just puts everything on the line of credit and all the paychecks go into the line of credit, and some months it goes and and some months it goes down. That one in particular was absolutely baffling for my fiancee, though I was a bit more used to it given my family's consumerist lifestyles.

I bet they have no idea that this is like adding a 6% tax (or whatever) to every purchase they make. The extra cost is going to be greater than whatever interest rate they are paying.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kitsune on July 21, 2015, 07:22:15 AM
"He's so stingy. When they got married, he wouldn't even let her buy magazines!"

OMG I HATE the "let" language about money. It absolutely undermines everything about shared budgets and responsibilities. And also it implies that it's one person's money tocontrol. Which I guess might be the case in some (rare) circumstances, but generally speaking, that is such bs.

Maybe I've got a more visceral reaction to this language than most: my grandmother was a stay-at-home mom (like most women of her generation...) and she genuinely had to justify to my grandfather why she wanted a new lipstick (whereas his woodworking tools for hobby use were obviously not for anyone else to question). I was really young when I swore that I would never be in a situation where I had to ask for permission for minor expenses. (And I've always earned at least 50% more than anyone I dated, so... guess that stuck with me.)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooperman on July 22, 2015, 11:49:26 AM
Fiancee's family has some good stories for this thread. Let me preface this by saying one of her aunts (out of several) ended up fairly mustachian-ish. They raised children on one salary and retired at 55 I want to say. Government job, pension, tsp.

On the other hand, there's her other aunt who is losing her house. Why? She didn't pay the mortgage for a couple years during the recession after she divorced her husband. After not paying for a couple years, she tried to refinance but wasn't qualified (what a shock!). Recently, someone bought it from the bank so she's supposed to be packing up to move. My fiancee has tried to help her pack, but she's doing nothing to pack/sell her stuff. She's in her fifties and completely f-ed.

Going with this theme, fiancee's brother and SIL have no money. They are going on trip after trip with their two kids, but complain about being broke. Until very recently, FMIL (future MIL) was paying for their medical insurance to the tune of double our rent. Did I mention they live in a McMansion with SIL's parents living there and paying for part of it? So a few days ago, fiancee's brother tells her that he paid off his credit card debt. I was surprised at the time. A couple days after that, I heard about the trips and put them together. Likely they took out a HELOC, paid off the plastic and then used the rest to go on trips.

Finally, FMIL. She and FFIL have had really good incomes for many years yet remain essentially broke. They are aging and are finally selling their business, which should be enough to pay off their debts with a bit left over. The bad news is that they have no savings and are going to have to live off of whatever is left after everything is sold plus SS. It's not gonna be pretty. The sad thing is, they should have done well, and part of why they are where they are is because they love to help people (insurance being an example).

SIL has told us that we should go out and do stuff. By that she meant eat out, go to the movies, or spend in general. This was after she heard we're frugal. She stopped after we took our trip to Canada, but it was annoying to hear it for several months...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on July 24, 2015, 09:38:01 AM
More foolishness from my uncle!  First off I am curious how revolving loans work.  It appears my grandfather set one up before his death with my uncle's and grandmother's name on it.  Naturally my uncle used it like an ATM until my mother and grandmother decided to pay it off and close it triggering a mouth foaming fit from my uncle and subsequent cold shouldering.  My mother said he is likely to approach her next month for money she is anticipating it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on July 24, 2015, 02:09:04 PM
More foolishness from my uncle!  First off I am curious how revolving loans work.  It appears my grandfather set one up before his death with my uncle's and grandmother's name on it.  Naturally my uncle used it like an ATM until my mother and grandmother decided to pay it off and close it triggering a mouth foaming fit from my uncle and subsequent cold shouldering.  My mother said he is likely to approach her next month for money she is anticipating it.
What an asshole! Does he have a job?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: TheBuddha on July 24, 2015, 10:59:08 PM
Posting to follow
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: eyePod on July 25, 2015, 05:11:25 AM
As I was reading this I was thinking about all the crazy moms. (mine included)

I recalled going to see her and my father a year or two ago. I drove down in my 17 year old Honda. She was visually dismayed. She was upset that I had an old beater. She exclaimed "you and your wife are professionals, you should have nicer cars - like BMW's or Mercedes"  She went on to say "You used to have nicer cars when you were poor" . Umm. Yeah mom, that's why I was poor. LOL (And I'm still poor, paying of debt and stupid mistakes...)  Even after I explain all of this she still doesn't get it. Worried about what other people will think.

I LOVE IT when other people (who worry about other people) think I'm poor when I might make twice as much as they do. So my cars are old. So I'm not wearing fancy clothes. We're clean, well fed and have a nice roof over our heads. I get this attitude from the 1980s (when I was a kid) and everybody was worrying so much about whether everybody had that stupid little alligator on their shirts (Izod). It was then that I (apparently) resolved to be a contrarian. ;)

FYI those Vintage Izod Lacoste shirts with the alligators are very good items to re-sell on eBay! I buy them whenever they're under $5 and sell them for $25+ all day! Here's one I sold just a little while ago. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mens-Izod-Lacoste-Red-Long-Sleeve-Turtleneck-Blue-Aligator-XL-USA-/121548529986?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4cdb6142 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mens-Izod-Lacoste-Red-Long-Sleeve-Turtleneck-Blue-Aligator-XL-USA-/121548529986?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4cdb6142)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on July 29, 2015, 11:55:28 AM
Far as I know my uncle is still unemployed living off family handouts and luck I suppose.  Ever since my mom cut him off we've heard no word.  I was over yesterday helping my mother to clean out Grandma's house.  My aunt who still seems to have no savings no plans to move out and no apartments checked out was there standing over us, criticizing all we do, taking me to task for taking Grandma's cookbooks which I want for sentimental value, picking on my mother and generally being a giant PITA (Pain In The A**).

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Adventine on July 29, 2015, 12:25:43 PM
My parents totally forgot about the PHP 150,000 (around USD 3,300) I loaned to them  in January 2014.

They originally asked for the money as additional capital for the family business, and promised me a share of the eventual profit.

Well, I waited a year and a half and never saw a cent of any kind of repayment. When I  finally reminded them last weekend, they were totally shocked to find out they still owed me money.

In fairness to them, they paid back the full amount on the next banking day. And promised to pay me interest at some vague, nebulous time in the future.

This isn't the first time they've demonstrated how awful they are with finances.

I dread the day they ask me again for money. Saying no is easier said than done.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: wordnerd on July 29, 2015, 07:20:22 PM
My brother is planning to visit my other brother this weekend (600 miles away). I asked him if he had bought tickets yet, and he said he'll get around to it soon. He wants to leave the day after tomorrow.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on July 31, 2015, 01:49:39 PM
"Fun" to watch someone become homeless? Are you serious? Even if they deserve it, actually enjoying witnessing it says something not so nice about you. Watching their downfall will not make you more superior.

Not to mention, it is in your best interest for them to have what they need, so they don't come looking to

Correction - fun to watch them (anyone) get a clue about what you knew all along...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: dandarc on July 31, 2015, 02:04:07 PM
My brother is planning to visit my other brother this weekend (600 miles away). I asked him if he had bought tickets yet, and he said he'll get around to it soon. He wants to leave the day after tomorrow.
Wow - plane tickets (assuming - 600 miles pretty far to drive for a weekend trip) 2 days before leaving.  That's going to cost a pretty penny.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: wordnerd on July 31, 2015, 04:44:11 PM
My brother is planning to visit my other brother this weekend (600 miles away). I asked him if he had bought tickets yet, and he said he'll get around to it soon. He wants to leave the day after tomorrow.
Wow - plane tickets (assuming - 600 miles pretty far to drive for a weekend trip) 2 days before leaving.  That's going to cost a pretty penny.

Yep! He had ruled out driving. As of yesterday, he still hadn't bought tickets but insisted he was going.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on August 03, 2015, 10:40:59 AM

Yep! He had ruled out driving. As of yesterday, he still hadn't bought tickets but insisted he was going.

lol wow. did he end up going?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AlanStache on August 03, 2015, 03:13:05 PM
Posting to follow.

Thanks everyone, my kin seem much better after reading these 9 pages.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: codemonkey on August 03, 2015, 08:26:55 PM
My sister-in-law called us up Sunday morning asking to borrow $550 for a flight to Miami, so that she could catch her flight to Cuba that afternoon.

She had a flight earlier in the day that was purchased with her last credit card miles, but she missed it due to being out partying the night before.

She makes good money, but she has $100k+ in student loans, a car loan, an apartment, and apparently maxed credit cards.  Her phone gets shut off every 3 months because of not paying the phone bill, so there was no way we were going to loan give $550 that would never be seen again.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mustachepungoeshere on August 03, 2015, 10:25:31 PM
My sister-in-law called us up Sunday morning asking to borrow $550 for a flight to Miami, so that she could catch her flight to Cuba that afternoon.

She had a flight earlier in the day that was purchased with her last credit card miles, but she missed it due to being out partying the night before.

She makes good money, but she has $100k+ in student loans, a car loan, an apartment, and apparently maxed credit cards.  Her phone gets shut off every 3 months because of not paying the phone bill, so there was no way we were going to loan give $550 that would never be seen again.

What was the reaction when you said no?

I have a relative who often asks for handouts but we've learnt better. Now when I say no I get sworn at and hung up on.

That only serves to reinforce our decision, but it does dampen my mood when we're just at home having dinner and I get a phone call accusing me of being a bitch.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Rufus.T.Firefly on August 04, 2015, 05:51:34 AM
I totally had a "this conversation belongs in the Antimustachian Wall of Shame" moment over the weekend.

We traveled out-of-state to see family this weekend. My SIL and BIL are having twin babies soon, which is very exciting. They are a little older than my wife and I, and have established excellent careers. I don't know how much exactly they make, but BIL got a large raise and promotion in the engineering/science field. My guess is they make well over six figures. Probably 140-160K.

It wasn't always this good. Just a couple of years ago, BIL was trying to return to the workforce after graduating from Law School. He went all the way through (on a good scholarship), only to find out that he wasn't interested in law. It was painful to watch at the time as he grew more depressed, trying to find any job. He would have even been happy to take his pre-law school job. It took him about a year to find his current employment. Right after this, he stated that they had nearly gone broke trying to live off of SIL's income (I'm guessing she makes 45-55K/year + bonus).

You would think that this experience would traumatize them into being frugal, rapidly paying off student loans and stashing the money away? Nope. Here is a list of things they have done in the past 2 1/2 years since he was hired:
- Stated that student loans will take 30 years to pay off
- Purchased a house with a small down payment -  they borrowed $5,000 from my wife's parents because they couldn't afford the down payment, and then took a year to pay it back.
- Regularly attend major league sporting events
- Leased a Ford Expedition

Which brings me to this weekend, when they showed up to the get-together with a 2012, nice Ford-150. It only cost $25,000 (what a deal!). "I could never go back to driving a car," he said. During the conversation about his new truck, BIL revealed to me the real reason for this purchase: he needs it so he can buy toys - and first on that list is a boat. I was speechless ... just listened and tried to remember to smile...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: codemonkey on August 04, 2015, 07:09:27 AM
My sister-in-law called us up Sunday morning asking to borrow $550 for a flight to Miami, so that she could catch her flight to Cuba that afternoon.

She had a flight earlier in the day that was purchased with her last credit card miles, but she missed it due to being out partying the night before.

She makes good money, but she has $100k+ in student loans, a car loan, an apartment, and apparently maxed credit cards.  Her phone gets shut off every 3 months because of not paying the phone bill, so there was no way we were going to loan give $550 that would never be seen again.

What was the reaction when you said no?

I have a relative who often asks for handouts but we've learnt better. Now when I say no I get sworn at and hung up on.

That only serves to reinforce our decision, but it does dampen my mood when we're just at home having dinner and I get a phone call accusing me of being a bitch.

All of a sudden she had to end the conversation and get off  the phone because the flight had just dropped in price.  She said she'd call back, but I don't expect to hear from her anytime soon.  I have no idea if she made it to Cuba or not, but chances are that my Mother In Law gave her money even though she cannot afford to do so.

We did give a legitimate excuse that our hospital bill (we had a baby in June) just arrived, our car insurance and home insurance are due this month, and our property tax is due in early September.  Granted, we have money to cover all of that, but it sounded good on the phone as a reason that we didn't have an extra $550 laying around to just hand over.

We stay quiet about our finances around my wife's family, and this is the first time someone has reached out for money from us.  I was an unemployed slacker in their eyes when we got married, and I'm happy for that initial impression to stick around while we continue to put away 50% of our income.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: johnny847 on August 04, 2015, 08:54:28 AM
I totally had a "this conversation belongs in the Antimustachian Wall of Shame" moment over the weekend.

We traveled out-of-state to see family this weekend. My SIL and BIL are having twin babies soon, which is very exciting. They are a little older than my wife and I, and have established excellent careers. I don't know how much exactly they make, but BIL got a large raise and promotion in the engineering/science field. My guess is they make well over six figures. Probably 140-160K.

It wasn't always this good. Just a couple of years ago, BIL was trying to return to the workforce after graduating from Law School. He went all the way through (on a good scholarship), only to find out that he wasn't interested in law. It was painful to watch at the time as he grew more depressed, trying to find any job. He would have even been happy to take his pre-law school job. It took him about a year to find his current employment. Right after this, he stated that they had nearly gone broke trying to live off of SIL's income (I'm guessing she makes 45-55K/year + bonus).

You would think that this experience would traumatize them into being frugal, rapidly paying off student loans and stashing the money away? Nope. Here is a list of things they have done in the past 2 1/2 years since he was hired:
- Stated that student loans will take 30 years to pay off
- Purchased a house with a small down payment -  they borrowed $5,000 from my wife's parents because they couldn't afford the down payment, and then took a year to pay it back.
- Regularly attend major league sporting events
- Leased a Ford Expedition

Which brings me to this weekend, when they showed up to the get-together with a 2012, nice Ford-150. It only cost $25,000 (what a deal!). "I could never go back to driving a car," he said. During the conversation about his new truck, BIL revealed to me the real reason for this purchase: he needs it so he can buy toys - and first on that list is a boat. I was speechless ... just listened and tried to remember to smile...

No, I wouldn't think that at all. Most likely, in their mind, they have gone through a hardship and now deserve all these things that their new life situation "allows" them to have. While I have no data to support this, I'm fairly certain this mindset is pretty commonplace. Look at how many doctors go out and buy a bunch of expensive stuff once they start making "real doctor money" when they still have boatloads of student loans. Same thing can be said for lawyers. Same thing can be said for fresh college graduates that managed to land a well paying fresh out of college job who go out and buy a flashy and/or gas guzzling expensive new car instead of
a) not buying a car at all and finding a place to live in biking range, with Uber or taxi supplements as required 
b) buying a non flashy fuel efficient used car 
c) or at the very least, if they really want a new car, at least get a fuel efficient one

Not that I have any data to back this up. If you want to challenge me on that then go ahead.

I think everyone can agree though that consumerism is pretty engrained in most people's minds these days.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Rufus.T.Firefly on August 05, 2015, 12:40:44 PM
Quote
Most likely, in their mind, they have gone through a hardship and now deserve all these things that their new life situation "allows" them to have

Clearly this is the case. But it still boggles my mind; especially how many different avenues they are taking simultaneously to "improve their lifestyle." It's like bottled-up pressure of entitlement has just been uncapped.

When they took 12 months to pay off the $5,000 loan, their parents mentioned something to the effect of "Hey, why are you getting all this new stuff, going to sporting events, and not returning the money?" This caused a lot of upset between both sides. Maybe the parents shouldn't have gotten on them so quickly, but when you realize they should be clearing $5,000 after expenses every month, you kind of see the parents' point.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ArcadeStache on August 05, 2015, 02:21:57 PM

Quote
Most likely, in their mind, they have gone through a hardship and now deserve all these things that their new life situation "allows" them to have


When they took 12 months to pay off the $5,000 loan, their parents mentioned something to the effect of "Hey, why are you getting all this new stuff, going to sporting events, and not returning the money?" This caused a lot of upset between both sides. Maybe the parents shouldn't have gotten on them so quickly, but when you realize they should be clearing $5,000 after expenses every month, you kind of see the parents' point.

We had this same issue with money lent to my brother in law. It was a much smaller amount thankfully, and it became pretty clear that he had no intention of paying it back as he was going on vacations, buying a new car (which he routinely trades in for something new), etc. my wife refuses to say anything and I've given up on ever seeing it repaid. Still pisses me off though... I see it as a lack of personal integrity.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on August 05, 2015, 02:27:18 PM
We had this same issue with money lent to my brother in law. It was a much smaller amount thankfully, and it became pretty clear that he had no intention of paying it back as he was going on vacations, buying a new car (which he routinely trades in for something new), etc. my wife refuses to say anything and I've given up on ever seeing it repaid. Still pisses me off though... I see it as a lack of personal integrity.
It's amazing how many people seem to feel less sense of obligation about friend/family debt than other types. I've helped several friends with small things, and most will go indefinitely without offering repayment unless/until you hound them. Then there are the excuses, and the delays, etc.
I've already written off more than one. We'll see about the rest.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: vern on August 05, 2015, 11:29:54 PM
personal integrity.

Stop cursing on this forum!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on August 10, 2015, 09:26:49 AM
My MIL doesn't know how to use her smart phone.  After setting up her email, downloading her favorite games and showing her how to use messaging, she was happy.  After that she started asking me EVERY single stupid question she could think of.  Everything from how do you change the volume (After having the phone for over a year) to more reasonable questions like how to change the background photo.  I honestly had to tell her - I don't have that type of phone, idk how to change that setting, maybe she should google it. (She lives 3+ hours away, so I was trying to do all this while talking to her on the phone - she wouldn't even call from another phone).

So after 2 months of this, she sells her phone and buys the exact same one I have.  Now on top of all the stupid questions, I also get to hear about how I forced her to sell the phone she loved and made her get this POS phone she can't stand.

So much for trying to be nice and help.

Buy a $5 flip phone so she thinks she needs to downgrade again. ;) Long distance tech support can be a hassle... I have no idea how some of these people get themselves into such a tech tangle aside form clicking on pop up boxes that they don't first read.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on August 10, 2015, 09:44:47 AM
I have family members who are having to sell their house due to threat of foreclosure.

But it's okay- their realtor is almost certain she knows of a program they can use to get a house loan with "really horrible credit", so they are going to be able to buy a new house.


Advice: If you haven't been paying your current mortgage (because you are freaking irresponsible and spend the money elsewhere)- maybe don't take out another one?

The worst part: Their house is worth almost 3x what they paid for it when they first bought it in the 80s. We thought that might help them with this quest to buy a new house; even though it is in bad shape, and they might have to sell a bit undermarket because they don't have money to do repairs; if they used the equity, they could buy a modest home outright (so not paying the mortgage isn't an issue, since clearly mailing a check or clicking a button on the internet is too hard).  Nope- they refinanced a few years ago and are actually underwater. They've had this house for 30 years and owe more on it than it is worth!


On an opposite topic: my BIL cut the cord on his cable! And my SIL might follow suit!  When BIL said he was going to save $2000 (holy crap!) a year on this move, SIL said "we never watch ours, we should do the same".  She has been counting pennies to be able to afford a vacation with us, and I said "why not cancel the cable, put the payment in a jar marked "vacation" and you could go on one every year if you wanted!"  She said "Hmm, never thought of it that way."  Now, hopefully they do cut the cable, and don't actually go on a vacation yearly, but at least this gets her  thinking what a drain the cable is- especially if they don't use it!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: codemonkey on August 10, 2015, 10:09:59 AM
The worst part: Their house is worth almost 3x what they paid for it when they first bought it in the 80s. We thought that might help them with this quest to buy a new house; even though it is in bad shape, and they might have to sell a bit undermarket because they don't have money to do repairs; if they used the equity, they could buy a modest home outright (so not paying the mortgage isn't an issue, since clearly mailing a check or clicking a button on the internet is too hard).  Nope- they refinanced a few years ago and are actually underwater. They've had this house for 30 years and owe more on it than it is worth!

This!  My in laws bought a house in '85 for $47,000.  They still live there.  They owe over $100,000 on it right now.  My MIL is rightfully worried about losing the house when my FIL (bad health) passes away.

We've tried to help my MIL with retirement planning and budgeting, but she said she'd rather not know and that it's to stressful to think about.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on August 10, 2015, 10:17:39 AM


On an opposite topic: my BIL cut the cord on his cable! And my SIL might follow suit!  When BIL said he was going to save $2000 (holy crap!) a year on this move, SIL said "we never watch ours, we should do the same".  She has been counting pennies to be able to afford a vacation with us, and I said "why not cancel the cable, put the payment in a jar marked "vacation" and you could go on one every year if you wanted!"  She said "Hmm, never thought of it that way."  Now, hopefully they do cut the cable, and don't actually go on a vacation yearly, but at least this gets her  thinking what a drain the cable is- especially if they don't use it!

Yikes, $2000 a year means over $160 a month, can't imagine spending that much. My parents don't spend that much, and they spring for satellite so that they can get channels from India.

For your SIL, wow can't imagine that this is something to think about if they never even use it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Dollar Slice on August 10, 2015, 10:21:59 AM
Nope- they refinanced a few years ago and are actually underwater. They've had this house for 30 years and owe more on it than it is worth!
I was talking to a friend recently in a similar situation. He was talking about buying a second house and renting out his first one, which he's been living in for 20 years. I asked why he didn't just sell it (since he seemed really reluctant to be a landlord). He said he can't sell it because it is underwater. Turns out he cashed out the equity to pay credit card debt at the peak of the housing market... argh.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on August 10, 2015, 10:26:46 AM


For your SIL, wow can't imagine that this is something to think about if they never even use it.

I think for SIL it is going to be slow and steady to be making better choices. They really are turning their lives around; I never would have suspected she and her husband would be where they are today if I was asked 5 years ago.  They are making better choices...  I think that it is just "everyone has cable", so it probably didn't occur to her that not having cable would be an option. 

I think in the past she has thought we vacation frequently because we are rich (and comparatively we are, so I kind of understand the envy)- but is slowly seeing that one of the reasons we have this extra money is because of the choices we make on what we spend.  Most of her vacation fund has come from reducing eating out; she was shocked when we told her we go out for dinner less than 2-3 times a year, and I go out to lunch less than once a month. But hearing what her brother was paying for cable (and yes- that included ALL the sports packages)- well that alone makes up for our frequent vacations.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on August 10, 2015, 10:27:50 AM
Turns out he cashed out the equity to pay credit card debt at the peak of the housing market... argh.

At least he paid of a debt.

I'm pretty sure in the case of my family member the money they got in the refinance went to a vacation, a big TV, and BMW.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AerynLee on August 10, 2015, 11:03:58 AM
The worst part: Their house is worth almost 3x what they paid for it when they first bought it in the 80s. We thought that might help them with this quest to buy a new house; even though it is in bad shape, and they might have to sell a bit undermarket because they don't have money to do repairs; if they used the equity, they could buy a modest home outright (so not paying the mortgage isn't an issue, since clearly mailing a check or clicking a button on the internet is too hard).  Nope- they refinanced a few years ago and are actually underwater. They've had this house for 30 years and owe more on it than it is worth!

This!  My in laws bought a house in '85 for $47,000.  They still live there.  They owe over $100,000 on it right now.  My MIL is rightfully worried about losing the house when my FIL (bad health) passes away.

We've tried to help my MIL with retirement planning and budgeting, but she said she'd rather not know and that it's to stressful to think about.
I'm eyeing a house (land really...) right now like this. The house at best needs stripped back to the studs and redone, at worst a possible full teardown and start over. Looking back on the history is was bought in 1998 for $87.5k and foreclosed on this year with a $155k loan balance and the bank is trying to sell it for $30k. I'm tempted to offer them $15k
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: partgypsy on August 10, 2015, 12:35:38 PM
Iowajes,
This makes me wonder, if mmm forum readers have self-selected, being from families that have psychologically traumatized them from financial insecurity? My father has his own story but this is about my mother. My parents divorced over 25 years ago, and in a couple years all the kids had flown the nest, she could downsize that big expensive house, which was the primary asset she got from the divorce.
My Mom, never recovered from the divorce, she is like Miss Havisham, except that she has a dysfunctional/co-dependent relationship with her oldest alcoholic son. Aside from short stints in other job areas, typically her only source of income was being a part time teacher (maybe 15K a year). Instead of selling the big suburban house to get some cash and also to get out from under the large carrying costs (including 7K a year property taxes) her son moves in with her, starts trashing it and living off her. 
The first real estate boom, man she could have sold it for 400, 500K, and it was paid off! Instead she decides to open a HELOC. Basically she uses it as an ATM to cover the fact that her income is less than her expenses. Also, she retired 2 times. Both times instead of getting a pension, she opted for cash option, and spent the money. So her income is 550 a month.
The latest was that she was going to sell the house after retiring. She retired summer of 2014. No movement, in fact recently filled out paperwork to postpone paying her property taxes until the house is sold (but accruing interest). My sister also moved in at some point and aside from a 2 year stint, is also chronically under- or irratically employed and contributes little to housing expenses.
When the house was paid off, I estimated that between the 3 of them, as long as they were able to bring in 36K or so a year, they could cover their housing and other costs. But they couldn't do it, or were not willing to do it.
Mom periodically freaks out and calls me and asks for money, saying she is afraid she won't be able to meet the monthly (interest only) payments on her HELOC. Or that I should help her buy a house elsewhere (no thanks). I keep telling her, that's why she needs to sell the house. 
My Dad who is usually the stoic one, called me practically in tears this weekend about the prospect of both his ex-wife and 2 of his children going to be on the street. He is in his 80's and still financially helps out the eldest, when he himself is on a limited income. He says he knows it's going to happen, and just he hope he dies before it happens. So basically, all of this is eventually going to fall in the laps of the two responsible children, who have jobs, spouses, children of their own to take care of. I'm not volunteering.

I've actually taking a little break from responding to those 3 members of the family, because it is like a broken record, and they never listen to anything anyone is telling them (it is always someone else's fault why their lives are so messed up, and calling on that threatens their world view). Literally there are times I get a frantic call from my Mom. when I get a chance to call, she cannot talk because she is playing a videogame, or they are about to eat their takeout/delivery food  or their cable movie just started.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on August 10, 2015, 12:46:48 PM
Really sad! She will qualify for low cost senior housing ( they take a third of your income for rent usually)when she loses the home & then the 2 loser kids will have to fend for themselves. You have given her good advise but she is not listening so I would stay out of it though it will be hard to do.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooperman on August 10, 2015, 01:03:27 PM
Some people just need to hit bottom before they understand.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: partgypsy on August 10, 2015, 01:17:05 PM
It's really hard to do. I think I need to get into therapy/counseling about it, it's affecting my outlook in life. Part of what makes it hard is one of the siblings is my twin sister, so ... I may need to separate or cut off, but there is a lot of guilt about not being able to save her.

But then again I have seen what happened to my father when he tried to help/save my older brother. No matter how much he gave or poured into trying to help or save him, it was never enough, and the financial pressure led him to make some stupid decisions, and he ended up losing everything. Which is what is now happening to my Mom. : (
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on August 10, 2015, 02:19:44 PM
Iowajes,
This makes me wonder, if mmm forum readers have self-selected, being from families that have psychologically traumatized them from financial insecurity?

No, not in my case- these aren't people I'm directly related to.

My parents aren't mustachian at all; but they managed to come from very poor families and work their way to being wealthy. I think most people would say they are boglehead-types. They earn a lot, save a lot, and spend a lot.  I think they are a bit too frivolous with money; but they are retired at typical retired age with plenty to get them through the next 30 years living high on the horse.  They taught me very early to be careful with my money; don't spend what you don't have, invest in stocks, etc. My sister appears to be taking after them (she has her husband's student loan debts; but no consumer debt, but they spend appropriate to how people would expect for their 'lifestyle'- he is a lawyer), I am going a bit more extreme in the frugality; we spend well below our means, obviously.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kitsune on August 11, 2015, 07:37:52 AM
This makes me wonder, if mmm forum readers have self-selected, being from families that have psychologically traumatized them from financial insecurity?

Short answer: not financial insecurity, just watching parents and then chosing a different path.

Long answer: my parents have always lived in a huge house (they just sold the house I grew up in: 7K square feet on 70 acres of land. Let's leave it at that?), spent lavishly (vacations to Europe every few years, interspaced by going south in winter, tailored and bespoke clothing, 500$ shoes, etc). My mother considers 100$/person/week to be a barely adequate grocery budget (we were a family of 5 growing up. That's a 2K grocery bill per month. EEEEK.) They're now in a situation where their retirement is not QUITE so well-funded as they'd like, which means she won't be able to take quite as many week-long painting workshops in the south of France, but that's the only actual impact it's likely to have on them.

However: they started their own company 25 years ago, and there were times where they were working 80 hours a week with abusive people and not sleeping and basically going through hell on earth because if they didn't the company would go under. In the long run: they've ensured the family income of over 20 people, most of who have worked for them for 15+ years. On a personal level, though, that was basically what made me decide that 1 main income stream + 2-3 side projects would be ideal for me. None of this 'being completely tied to 1 thing and unable to get away' nonsense. If I'm miserable, or unhappy, or want out, I want to be able to get out without sacrificing the things I care about (house, family, free time, etc). I can give up expensive shoes and trips to Europe to be happy all week while I'm working, and to ensure that I always have options.

My parents are happy with their life. They didn't give up anything they didn't want to. They're now comfortable, and more than likely to stay that way. Different values, though: they valued working and building a company and being entrepreneurs and etc. I value freedom and stability at the same time, and not needing to subsidize an extravagant lifestyle is definitely key to achieving that. :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: cripzychiken on August 11, 2015, 12:12:34 PM
This makes me wonder, if mmm forum readers have self-selected, being from families that have psychologically traumatized them from financial insecurity?

Short answer: not financial insecurity, just watching parents and then chosing a different path.

While I personally fall in the first group, I'd say most the people here are in the 2nd group.  Basically they've watched their parents stumble or fail and don't want to follow that same path.  Not all parents have to fail to scare the kids away - sometimes being too successful and ending up putting the company before the family would be just as bad.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Winston on August 11, 2015, 12:44:42 PM
... they are retired at typical retired age with plenty to get them through the next 30 years living high on the horse.

My goal is to avoid having to eat horse meat in retirement! LOL! The phrase is "living high on the hog," because the better (more expensive) cuts of meat are the parts higher up on the animal, above the belly.

P.S. I will say that I had pork belly at a pub in the UK a few weeks ago, and it was amazing. Living low on the hog isn't that bad ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: codemonkey on August 11, 2015, 01:15:00 PM
My parents were frugal and high income earners.  If they had any investment knowledge, they probably could have retired early rather than when my dad reached 59 1/2.  Although he retired that very same day, so at least he didn't stick around longer than he thought he had to.  They've been generous with their money, but at the same time they have plenty to live a long and comfortable retirement.

They set a good example of staying out of debt and I remember compound interest being mentioned a time or two, but I grew up believing that you go to school, you go to college, you get a job, then you work till your 65, then you retire for a few years and die.

If it doesn't sound very positive, you're correct.  That led me to allowing my spending to meet my income for the first 7 years of my working career.  It wasn't until I found MMM that I realized money could buy me the freedom I craved rather than more things that only gave me temporary satisfaction.

My parents laid the foundation for me to at least not be in debt and to save at least enough to get my company's 401k match.  Finding Mustachianism revolutionized my life and our 10% savings rate is now close to 50% despite being a one income family with 4 children.

My wife comes from a completely different family background.  Her parents are very unhealthy in both a physical way as well as with their money.  Her dad went on disability at 50.  By 55, all of his retirement money was gone, with the last bit of it being spent on an expensive anniversary trip to Hawaii.  She worked a fast food job in high school to save up and buy a car for herself.  After high school, she supported herself by working but because of dropping out of college, she never made much money and had just enough to survive.  She paid cash for everything and never got into debt.

I was worried she wouldn't get on board with my new perspective on money, but she hopped right on the bandwagon and we're well on our way to FI and hopefully RE.  It's probably a 15+year journey away, but that's better than the 32 years I thought I had left with my old view on money.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: BPA on August 11, 2015, 01:21:14 PM
My mother used to get it.  I don't know if senility is setting in or what, but lately she's been mocking me for being "cheap" (because I won't use an expensive grocery delivery service and because I determined that $236 to see Rod Stewart was too much.)  She also tells me all of her ideas for upgrading my house. 

She used to be so frugal and still is for herself, but finds it necessary to pass judgment on my money decisions.  Drives me nuts.  She must forget how much she hated working before she retired at 65.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: iowajes on August 11, 2015, 01:27:31 PM
... they are retired at typical retired age with plenty to get them through the next 30 years living high on the horse.

My goal is to avoid having to eat horse meat in retirement! LOL! The phrase is "living high on the hog," because the better (more expensive) cuts of meat are the parts higher up on the animal, above the belly.

P.S. I will say that I had pork belly at a pub in the UK a few weeks ago, and it was amazing. Living low on the hog isn't that bad ;)

Thanks for the lesson :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MishMash on August 11, 2015, 01:30:54 PM
My mother used to get it.  I don't know if senility is setting in or what, but lately she's been mocking me for being "cheap" (because I won't use an expensive grocery delivery service and because I determined that $236 to see Rod Stewart was too much.)  She also tells me all of her ideas for upgrading my house. 

She used to be so frugal and still is for herself, but finds it necessary to pass judgment on my money decisions.  Drives me nuts.  She must forget how much she hated working before she retired at 65.

I think our moms know each other.  Mine went from frugal to full spend and now that she knows we have some level of a nut she is CONSTANTLY telling me how we live in a "small piece of shit house" (it's 2k feet), that we need to completely remodel the basement (that we don't use outside of storage and the laundry) and that since we are here in this state for 4 more years (before moving to god only knows where) that we should rent this house out and buy another, larger, higher taxes, 800k plus house if we don't want to improve the one we live in.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: BPA on August 11, 2015, 03:29:00 PM
My mother used to get it.  I don't know if senility is setting in or what, but lately she's been mocking me for being "cheap" (because I won't use an expensive grocery delivery service and because I determined that $236 to see Rod Stewart was too much.)  She also tells me all of her ideas for upgrading my house. 

She used to be so frugal and still is for herself, but finds it necessary to pass judgment on my money decisions.  Drives me nuts.  She must forget how much she hated working before she retired at 65.

I think our moms know each other.  Mine went from frugal to full spend and now that she knows we have some level of a nut she is CONSTANTLY telling me how we live in a "small piece of shit house" (it's 2k feet), that we need to completely remodel the basement (that we don't use outside of storage and the laundry) and that since we are here in this state for 4 more years (before moving to god only knows where) that we should rent this house out and buy another, larger, higher taxes, 800k plus house if we don't want to improve the one we live in.

I am wondering if she wants to spend vicariously through me since she thinks I have a super high income.  It's only $63k, but is easily 3x what she used to make. I'm also planning to retire much younger than she did.  It's exhausting sometimes.  She also wants me to make sure that my brother always has a place to live which I'm totally cool with (since we are roommates and it's working out well).  Maybe I should tell her I'd have to charge my brother more rent in order to live the way she wants me to live. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AlanStache on August 11, 2015, 04:19:04 PM
...

I am wondering if she wants to spend vicariously through me since she thinks I have a super high income.  It's only $63k, but is easily 3x what she used to make. I'm also planning to retire much younger than she did.  It's exhausting sometimes.  She also wants me to make sure that my brother always has a place to live which I'm totally cool with (since we are roommates and it's working out well).  Maybe I should tell her I'd have to charge my brother more rent in order to live the way she wants me to live.

Tell your brother that his rent would have to go up to support your moms ideas, get him on board with your frugality! :-)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: BPA on August 11, 2015, 06:06:13 PM
...

I am wondering if she wants to spend vicariously through me since she thinks I have a super high income.  It's only $63k, but is easily 3x what she used to make. I'm also planning to retire much younger than she did.  It's exhausting sometimes.  She also wants me to make sure that my brother always has a place to live which I'm totally cool with (since we are roommates and it's working out well).  Maybe I should tell her I'd have to charge my brother more rent in order to live the way she wants me to live.

Tell your brother that his rent would have to go up to support your moms ideas, get him on board with your frugality! :-)

ha ha  He is frugal out of necessity and generally supports my getting off the working life treadmill. 

We had a pretty scary upbringing (drunk, abusive dad) and I suspect he has PTSD and does have bad anxiety, so he works part-time at a low stress, low wage job.  He might never be FI, but his frugality means that he will never have to worry about having a high wage job.  He's a great guy and does contribute, but I don't charge him very much for rent. He spends a lot of time with my son and I love that and takes care of the house and pets when I am out of town.

He has told our mom to back off me in other things before, but tries to stay out of the fray most of the time. 

Mom is ISFJ and I am ENTP, so while I love her and see what is good about her, we butt heads frequently.  It doesn't surprise me at all that we are complete opposites as far as Myers-Briggs is concerned.  :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on August 12, 2015, 11:53:32 AM
You guys make me feel lucky that my mom is 'only' broke and doing little about it... she seems to have figured out a way to survive (for now) in an incredibly expensive place with only SS and a little part-time work. She's very supportive of my efforts, to the extent that she knows the details, and never encourages me to spend money.

I still worry that if she doesn't make better long-term plans she'll end up needing help... c'est la vie, I guess.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tat96 on August 13, 2015, 09:16:10 AM
I'm so tired of both sides of my family (in-laws, blood relatives) making fun of me for; heating my house with wood, turning off lights/electronics when they're not being used, turning the hot water heater temp down, growing my own fruit and vegetables, canning, hunting and butchering my own meat, flipping items on craigslist and doubleing my money almost every time, fixing our own vehicles, driving a 20 yr old station wagon, cutting my hair every 3 months, throwing food scraps in the woods for critters (circle of life...enter Lion King music), composting, keeping the AC at 78, not going out to dinner, etc etc etc...  At the same time the in-laws don't appear very happy that they're daughter married the person described above, because I don't treat her like a princess and blow money on her...she was aware of my frugality since day 1 and she stayed with me...shove it!

Story of my life!  My entire family thinks my wife and I are incredibly cheap and go out of their ways to let us know that it is unacceptable to them.  They are unhappy because we downgraded to one car, dropped cable, and I started having the wife do my haircuts.  The argument is we make "too much money" to make good financial decisions........
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cookie78 on August 13, 2015, 09:18:28 AM
I'm so tired of both sides of my family (in-laws, blood relatives) making fun of me for; heating my house with wood, turning off lights/electronics when they're not being used, turning the hot water heater temp down, growing my own fruit and vegetables, canning, hunting and butchering my own meat, flipping items on craigslist and doubleing my money almost every time, fixing our own vehicles, driving a 20 yr old station wagon, cutting my hair every 3 months, throwing food scraps in the woods for critters (circle of life...enter Lion King music), composting, keeping the AC at 78, not going out to dinner, etc etc etc...  At the same time the in-laws don't appear very happy that they're daughter married the person described above, because I don't treat her like a princess and blow money on her...she was aware of my frugality since day 1 and she stayed with me...shove it!

Story of my life!  My entire family thinks my wife and I are incredibly cheap and go out of their ways to let us know that it is unacceptable to them.  They are unhappy because we downgraded to one car, dropped cable, and I started having the wife do my haircuts.  The argument is we make "too much money" to make good financial decisions........

LOL. I would have a hard time not laughing in their faces if my family expressed their displeasure at things like that! Unreal.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: arpies on August 13, 2015, 11:04:03 AM
I'm lucky in that my relatives are all on board with these ideas, just maybe not to the same extent. Heck, my mom is orders of magnitude more frugal than I am, though not quite as investment/money savvy. The worst I get is that I should start an emergency fund right away despite being able to show mathematically it's an inferior option. I've been able to dodge that with "I will once my debts are repaid".

I guess I'm also lucky my friends are used to my habit of over-analyzing things. I've gotten comments like "That'd be weird if it wasn't you doing it."
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on August 13, 2015, 11:11:37 AM
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?

The country hippies grow their own. For real... And much of their food. And they live in very moustachian houses. And drive old cars. They might not save much b/c they don't make much in the first place. Got cozy with a few twenty years ago. Hung around with them for a while and then remembered I didn't like being perpetually broke and got serious again about graduating with my engineering degree.
Make it 40 years ago and you described my older sister.

Although eventually, in her 30's, she went to college and got a BS and MBA, divorced her abusive deadbeat husband, and got a job to support her kids.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on August 13, 2015, 11:26:19 AM
My sister-in-law called us up Sunday morning asking to borrow $550 for a flight to Miami, so that she could catch her flight to Cuba that afternoon.

She had a flight earlier in the day that was purchased with her last credit card miles, but she missed it due to being out partying the night before.

She makes good money, but she has $100k+ in student loans, a car loan, an apartment, and apparently maxed credit cards.  Her phone gets shut off every 3 months because of not paying the phone bill, so there was no way we were going to loan give $550 that would never be seen again.

What was the reaction when you said no?

I have a relative who often asks for handouts but we've learnt better. Now when I say no I get sworn at and hung up on.

That only serves to reinforce our decision, but it does dampen my mood when we're just at home having dinner and I get a phone call accusing me of being a bitch.

All of a sudden she had to end the conversation and get off  the phone because the flight had just dropped in price.  She said she'd call back, but I don't expect to hear from her anytime soon.  I have no idea if she made it to Cuba or not, but chances are that my Mother In Law gave her money even though she cannot afford to do so.

We did give a legitimate excuse that our hospital bill (we had a baby in June) just arrived, our car insurance and home insurance are due this month, and our property tax is due in early September.  Granted, we have money to cover all of that, but it sounded good on the phone as a reason that we didn't have an extra $550 laying around to just hand over.

We stay quiet about our finances around my wife's family, and this is the first time someone has reached out for money from us.  I was an unemployed slacker in their eyes when we got married, and I'm happy for that initial impression to stick around while we continue to put away 50% of our income.
This is a good habit to have, staying quiet.  I had a conversation with my SIL on vacation.

They are average spend-types.  Not crazy.  They do have a large house, toys, big cars.  But they aren't in debt, really, besides the mortgage and car loans.  (No credit card debt.)

She has conversations with her mom about savings, etc.  My husband's parents were a single income, middle class family.  They had to save up for everything.  They had a duplex.  Saved up for that.  Sold it and bought a house.  Saved up for a camp on a lake (about $15k when they bought it decades ago).  Their entertainment was at the lake.  Saved up for vacations to Europe every 2 years (grandparent visits).

My SIL discussed buying a second camp for more access, because the current one is "shared", and MIL really kept nailing her on the costs and that she couldn't "afford it".  But I think MIL doesn't remember.  MIL and FIL were in their 30's when they bought the camp, and on a single income.  SIL and BIL are mid-40's, two good incomes, and BIL is a business owner.  They surely can afford it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: bagap on August 20, 2015, 05:01:34 PM

Make it 40 years ago and you described my older sister.

Although eventually, in her 30's, she went to college and got a BS and MBA, divorced her abusive deadbeat husband, and got a job to support her kids.

That's an inspiring story. She could probably supplement her income with motivational speaking :-)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Spiffsome on August 20, 2015, 05:30:41 PM
We accepted some help from the family for a house deposit - for the first and last time. However, I tend to view 'economic outpatient support' (thank you, Millionaire Next Door) like a big ol' syringe full of heroin. Feels great at the time, but if you get dependent on regular doses of it, you're at the mercy of your dealer.

The Millionaire Next Door's chapter on this phenomenon is eye-opening. They argue that people who depend on regular financial support from others are actually more nervous and less confident about the future, because they know they're reliant on the unpredictable mercy of others. I don't want to live that way.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: codemonkey on August 20, 2015, 09:25:57 PM
We accepted some help from the family for a house deposit - for the first and last time. However, I tend to view 'economic outpatient support' (thank you, Millionaire Next Door) like a big ol' syringe full of heroin. Feels great at the time, but if you get dependent on regular doses of it, you're at the mercy of your dealer.

The Millionaire Next Door's chapter on this phenomenon is eye-opening. They argue that people who depend on regular financial support from others are actually more nervous and less confident about the future, because they know they're reliant on the unpredictable mercy of others. I don't want to live that way.

I understand the pitfalls for the average person in accepting 'economic outpatient support', but what if a person were to accept it and then just save that much more?  Or is that term only referring to people who use the money right away to increase their 'standard of living'?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: WildJager on August 21, 2015, 12:49:44 AM
We accepted some help from the family for a house deposit - for the first and last time. However, I tend to view 'economic outpatient support' (thank you, Millionaire Next Door) like a big ol' syringe full of heroin. Feels great at the time, but if you get dependent on regular doses of it, you're at the mercy of your dealer.

The Millionaire Next Door's chapter on this phenomenon is eye-opening. They argue that people who depend on regular financial support from others are actually more nervous and less confident about the future, because they know they're reliant on the unpredictable mercy of others. I don't want to live that way.

I understand the pitfalls for the average person in accepting 'economic outpatient support', but what if a person were to accept it and then just save that much more?  Or is that term only referring to people who use the money right away to increase their 'standard of living'?

It refers to people who spend it to raise their standard of living.  My parents saved a decent chunk of.money for my brother and I for either college or a down payment on a house as necessary.  My older brother used it, so my parents considered it fair to give me my slice of the pie even though I refused.  Eventually I begrudgingly accepted when they were adamant that it was "my" money.  I guiltily added the funds to my stash and called it a day, but that obviously didn't lead to future expectation the way buying too large of a house or something would have.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: FunkyStickman on August 21, 2015, 07:02:53 AM
Some people just need to hit bottom before they understand.

It took a while before I understood this, including coming close to rock bottom myself.

Even so, it's not a guarantee.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Jakejake on August 25, 2015, 03:46:08 PM
My sister needs a mention in this thread. Until last year she was self-employed, making well under minimum wage, with a couple side hustles that were very part-time. Needless to say, she's been bailed out multiple times by my parents for mortgage payments, cosigning of loans, etc.

Her current job is a very well paid position (over 50k, maybe 80k a year?) - gotten through being friends with the boss. She immediately began eating out at restaurants every day, buying new outfits, etc. She knows that I've been making a decent wage for several decades now consistently. So I mentioned to her that I still buy clothes at thrift shops, that I still pack a lunch every day, that my husband, who earns over 100k, packs his lunch every day. She said that's great for me, but she really just needs to get out of the office for a "break" during lunch, or people will just keep interrupting her lunch for work related things. Nevermind that she's coming off a 30 year long break (we are in our 50's), or that last year she was looking into filing for bankruptcy, or that she owes tens of thousands on her credit card, or has no retirement savings at all.

Anyway, she got told recently that she will be downgraded to a secretary, basically, with her salary cut in half this winter. She is depressed because she won't be able to afford going out to lunch daily with her boss once that happens, and doesn't want to deal with that awkward conversation - "Now that you cut my pay, I can't afford to eat out every day." But even knowing that's coming up, she won't stop eating out yet, because right now, she can still afford it.

The kicker in all of this is the position she was appointed to - CAO of an organization with an almost 100 million dollar annual budget, that at one point last year was within days of not being able to pay its employees because of budget problems.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Rufus.T.Firefly on August 25, 2015, 06:39:50 PM
Quote
Anyway, she got told recently that she will be downgraded to a secretary, basically, with her salary cut in half this winter.

This is the saddest and most troubling part of the story. It shows that the company doesn't value her as much as they did when they hired her.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Jakejake on August 25, 2015, 06:53:05 PM
Yeah, that part sucks - and I actually think she was doing a great job, she really is smart, just not financially, and she has great people skills (better than me!).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MaybeBecca on August 26, 2015, 06:55:13 AM
I wrote an article on my blog about my in-law's spending habits. So much fury.

They have a horrible case of "wants are usually needs" syndrome, which includes replacing carpet about 8 years ago (they're still paying it off), a truck they just recently bought (financed), and an extended warranty on their other new car. It wouldn't be such an issue if they didn't specifically say they "need(ed) X". The upstairs carpet is the same as it has been and is fine.

These same people just recently panicked about the fact that only one of them has any retirement funds, both over 50. Obviously, you should have figured this out way earlier.

They also use paper plates and coffee cups, to the tune of $.96/day (this is based on their Costco purchase of said products). That's one meal a week at their favorite restaurant for 1/4 of a year. SMH.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: StudioDweller on August 27, 2015, 07:03:33 PM
When I was in college I lived with relatives for about two years. They'd talked the wife's mom into selling the home she'd lived in for years with her husband (he'd just died) so that they could put a down payment on a huuuuuuuge house in one of the nicest areas in the East Bay. Of course, they went all out installing a MIL unit for her, complete with two (!) full bathrooms just for her and her own elevator... Then they used to pay me money to take her out every Friday to do her grocery shopping, on Mother's Day to a nice restaurant... because her daughter was too "busy" (she was a SAHM supposedly homeschooling the kids?).

It was so hard because every time I paid the rent (which was a struggle to do), a new piece of antique furniture would pop up somewhere in the house. I remember one time, during the summer when I was working 40 hrs/wk at the college bookstore, I came home and put my pajamas on so I could do some comfy reading... and the husband called my dad (who lives in another country) to tell him I was lazy and needed to get a second job.

Well, then the husband decides that he wants to quit his pastor job so that he can open an auto-detailing shop... in a horrible location. They bought a brand-new Hummer because putting the business's logo on the side somehow made sense. Meanwhile, the wife spent like nobody's business... Her hair and nails done every week, $70 outfits for their 3-year-old daughter, driving to Costco in that huge Hummer. The husband lifts his Jeep Wrangler, does all kinds of stuff to it, fancy rims, everything.

Second mortgage gets put on the house. Nobody's showing up to the business.

I lived with them 2004-2006. Last I heard, they lost the house and the husband is working two jobs (90+ hours a week), living in a trailer in the parking lot of his new church. The wife went to (a shitty) grad school and is convinced once she graduates she's going to be making tons of money.

There's more, like how mean the wife was to her husband and the fact that she pressured him to do the business... or how she asked me to come stay with her mom when her mom was dying while she watched TV in the other room. Never even saw her cry about it. Ugh.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on August 28, 2015, 08:43:41 AM
geez, hope those kids turn out okay.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Twenty4Me on August 30, 2015, 12:34:09 AM
Goodness, some of the stories here are just horrible. I think my future in laws might have some leanings in the directions mentioned here, but I don't know them well enough yet to really say. I really, really, really hope that once I'm that side that this isn't what I find over there.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on August 30, 2015, 12:53:17 AM
***holy shit***
etc.


There's more, like how mean the wife was to her husband and the fact that she pressured him to do the business... or how she asked me to come stay with her mom when her mom was dying while she watched TV in the other room. Never even saw her cry about it. Ugh.
Outsourcing! WTF!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: JAYSLOL on August 30, 2015, 10:35:20 AM
Oh I've got stories for days regarding my in laws. These are the stereotypical kids who give the rest of the millenials a bad name. When people say you are only poor because you are lazy it's these idiots that make the case for them.

Oh where to even begin. Let's start with the overview. 4 kids all in their 30s all living with or crashing with at various times during a week with their mother. Now my MIL does not work she is disabled and lives off of some crazy combination of disability and her deceased husbands SS and military pension and this nets a tidy sum of about $4,000 a month. Back to the 4 kids all are unemployed with student loan debt up the yin yang. One sells some pyramid scheme bath product crap here and there but that's about it. Oh they live in a three bedroom apartment and have been forcibly removed from at least 5 residences in the last 5 years for non payment of rent. During these evictions she stores her stuff and has lost storage spaces for non payment I don't know how many times. She has had to purchase new furniture so many times and it's always rent a center scheme type stuff. Her rent is reasonable about $1,000 a month but her utilities everywhere she goes are insane like $500 a month water bills! My wife says it's always been like that even growing up. They shower, wash a ton of clothes idk wtf but there you are. They also eat out all the time? Why? No one wants to buy groceries because the others will eat anything not nailed down! My SIL started hoarding food which caused ants and other bugs in the closet! MIL is currently being dragged into court for this place too so we will see if she gets evicted again. How can she not afford the rent? Let's go down the roster:

My BIL is a gym rat who works out all the time and then parties all night and sleeps all day. He couldn't attend his nephew (my sons) birthday party last week because it was at 4pm on a Sunday and was still asleep. When BIL is awake he uses MILs debit card to rack up gym memberships, protein powder, etc but wait it gets worse! He just bought a Costco membership but doesn't own a car. So he uses Uber to drive him the 1 1/2 miles to Costco and then another back to carry the groceries! He used her debit card last month to pay off warrants which ate up most of MIL money which caused the eviction! This type of activity is what caused the last 5 evictions and when it's pack up and get out time who does the packing? MIL ALL BY HERSELF! All the kids even without vehicles somehow manage to get out of dodge and help not a lick! He has a son by some one night stand who he never sees and apparently is being abused by the new boyfriend. He won't get a job to get a lawyer to fight for custody however. He's wrecked at least three cars that MIL bought cash with the life insurance money her husband left her when he died. One of those was a $40k Dodge Charger bought cash. All vehicles were wrecked due to drunk driving by the way. Hitting medians and breaking at least two axles. BIL has had several DWIs. They've also lost at least three other vehicles to title loans. And I am talking about $50k Mercedes ML500 paid off taken for nonpayment of a $5,000 title loan!

Second BIL is just a drifter who couch surfs 24/7 best that I can tell. Multiple DWIs, takes money from MIL. Does nothing with his life. Years ago he had his life kind of straight. He was with a girl and MIL paid for the deposit on a new build KB home. something like $20k for them. They break up and the home and the deposit end up lost for nothing. This had happened before when MIL had put down something like $50k on a McMansion. Like 4500 sq ft type. Lost that one too but at least that was meant for the whole zoo. I remember on MILs birthday one year they asked HER for money to take a trip to Houston to go party. She pays all their bills remember and they didn't so much as buy her a card but instead took money from her to go drink! I swear I am not making this stuff up....

SIL has the daughter who lives at the zoo. Years ago she makes MIL buy two brand new Jeep Grand Cherokees one for her and one for the baby daddy. She also has MIL furnish and renovate his house something like $100k. After all of this they break up and he kicks her and his daughter out. Keeping the truck and house. Now she's about to be 40 and desperately wanted another baby. So instead of you know looking for a partner to love, cherish, marry, etc. she hooks up with some guy she meets at a hotel. She's now pregnant and has no contact info for the guy and never will and decided to quit her job at the front desk of the hotel (where she met the guy) to raise the kid.

So TL;DR my MIL received a large life insurance payout when her husband died and has blown through near as I can tell $500-$700k on mainly cars, eating out, and deposits on new construction homes that fell through. She now supports four 30 year olds and their kids on SSDI and a military pension. All of whom treat her like crap and she's had multiple heart attacks. We've begged her to come and live with us on the condition that the leeches are not welcome. No dice on that.

<drops mic>

The list of curse words that went though my head while reading that is easily as long as your story.  My head hurts and i can feel my blood-pressure going through the roof.  I hope MIL can sort some things out with those kids.  It might take some intervention from you guys, although i know that would be extremely difficult for everyone.  Good luck. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: countdown on August 30, 2015, 04:45:03 PM
My sister was just telling me that she and her husband live paycheck to paycheck and have no savings. She then said that when her husband just starts making more money, they'll be fine. I made a general statement about my perception of their income and that it was still double my income and we're saving quite a bit and she said, oh no, he makes X. Together, their household income is >$400k. I almost choked. I told her that at that income, it's a spending problem, not an income problem to which she told me that it's really a tax issue, that they're planning to buy a $1m+ house to minimize their tax burden. My suggestion to contribute to her 401(k) as an easy way to immediately reduce their taxable income was met with a...I wish we could afford it. Just very different people.

I always spend a little more for my kids after being around my sister and seeing the mountains of stuff they buy their girls. This time, I kept it to: one packet of bendy straws ($1), one kite on clearance ($5), two ebay princess dressup lots ($35 total). Sister spends more than that on one shirt for her 2 year old.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Jakejake on August 30, 2015, 04:48:33 PM
My sister was just telling me that she and her husband live paycheck to paycheck and have no savings.  ...  Together, their household income is >$400k.
My head just exploded.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on August 30, 2015, 05:38:53 PM
I can't even fathom what they are spending all that $ on.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Zamboni on August 30, 2015, 06:26:59 PM
^Blow?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Tigerpine on August 30, 2015, 07:08:39 PM
Together, their household income is >$400k. I almost choked.

I almost drooled.

I can't even imagine that kind of income, much less spending that kind of money!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: countdown on August 30, 2015, 07:41:10 PM
Oh, and her cc was declined at a restaurant for a $40 check.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on August 31, 2015, 05:46:59 AM
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooperman on August 31, 2015, 06:51:44 AM
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on August 31, 2015, 07:12:17 AM
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooperman on August 31, 2015, 07:19:25 AM
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.

Depends where you live. For a house in a decent area with ok schools you might not want to send your kids to costs a metric crap ton in some areas (SF, NY/NJ, DC, etc). Like $500k+ for not a war zone middle class area. That beaing said, it's still stupid, but I can totally understand how it can happen. The housing cost comes from my parents' place (worth about $750k). Much of that amount is taxes in addition to the rest of the normal maintenance, mortgage, etc. It's what you get for living outside NYC.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on August 31, 2015, 07:48:26 AM
My sister was just telling me that she and her husband live paycheck to paycheck and have no savings. She then said that when her husband just starts making more money, they'll be fine. I made a general statement about my perception of their income and that it was still double my income and we're saving quite a bit and she said, oh no, he makes X. Together, their household income is >$400k. I almost choked. I told her that at that income, it's a spending problem, not an income problem to which she told me that it's really a tax issue, that they're planning to buy a $1m+ house to minimize their tax burden...
(http://media.fyre.co/6TWTJakiTZucqFCe1uuk_85j5j.jpg)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on August 31, 2015, 08:12:27 AM


Depends where you live. For a house in a decent area with ok schools you might not want to send your kids to costs a metric crap ton in some areas (SF, NY/NJ, DC, etc). Like $500k+ for not a war zone middle class area. That beaing said, it's still stupid, but I can totally understand how it can happen. The housing cost comes from my parents' place (worth about $750k). Much of that amount is taxes in addition to the rest of the normal maintenance, mortgage, etc. It's what you get for living outside NYC.

Having just gone through this, I can say that it is possible to find houses that cost far less than $500k for a good school district in the DC 'burbs. The McMansions cost upward of $500k, but there are plenty of smaller bungalows that can be had for a 'steal' around the mid-300's. And these houses are in districts that are consistently ranked in the top 10 in the country. It just takes patience and a willingness to compromise.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AlanStache on August 31, 2015, 08:23:17 AM
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cookie78 on August 31, 2015, 08:26:06 AM
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

But when her husband starts making more, they'll be fine! lol
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on August 31, 2015, 08:32:28 AM
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

Where I live the property taxes can easily be $30,000 a year on a million dollar house. So that brings your spending down to $7,000. Figure two car payments at $1,000 a month each, we're down to $6,000 twice a month. $4,000 for the private schools, so we're down to $4,000 twice a month. Add in the food, landscaping on the gigantic house, the likely ridiculous cable and internet and cell phone bills, and the heating and cooling of the gigantic house... Pretty easy to see where it goes.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AlanStache on August 31, 2015, 08:40:11 AM
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

Where I live the property taxes can easily be $30,000 a year on a million dollar house. So that brings your spending down to $7,000. Figure two car payments at $1,000 a month each, we're down to $6,000 twice a month. $4,000 for the private schools, so we're down to $4,000 twice a month. Add in the food, landscaping on the gigantic house, the likely ridiculous cable and internet and cell phone bills, and the heating and cooling of the gigantic house... Pretty easy to see where it goes.

yep.  But still the money shot top line is crazy. And depending on the city it might cost 30$/day to park each car at the office thats almost 700$ right there!!!!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: cripzychiken on August 31, 2015, 10:12:02 AM
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

Where I live the property taxes can easily be $30,000 a year on a million dollar house. So that brings your spending down to $7,000. Figure two car payments at $1,000 a month each, we're down to $6,000 twice a month. $4,000 for the private schools, so we're down to $4,000 twice a month. Add in the food, landscaping on the gigantic house, the likely ridiculous cable and internet and cell phone bills, and the heating and cooling of the gigantic house... Pretty easy to see where it goes.

yep.  But still the money shot top line is crazy. And depending on the city it might cost 30$/day to park each car at the office thats almost 700$ right there!!!!

weekly maid service, weekly lawn service, after school activities for kids, nanny/baby sitter to watch the kids on the weekends for date night to a top tier steak house, private tutor for each kid..... I can easily 'spend' $400k/yr on stuff that people would think is "normal".
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on August 31, 2015, 10:17:50 AM
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

Where I live the property taxes can easily be $30,000 a year on a million dollar house. So that brings your spending down to $7,000. Figure two car payments at $1,000 a month each, we're down to $6,000 twice a month. $4,000 for the private schools, so we're down to $4,000 twice a month. Add in the food, landscaping on the gigantic house, the likely ridiculous cable and internet and cell phone bills, and the heating and cooling of the gigantic house... Pretty easy to see where it goes.

yep.  But still the money shot top line is crazy. And depending on the city it might cost 30$/day to park each car at the office thats almost 700$ right there!!!!

weekly maid service, weekly lawn service, after school activities for kids, nanny/baby sitter to watch the kids on the weekends for date night to a top tier steak house, private tutor for each kid..... I can easily 'spend' $400k/yr on stuff that people would think is "normal".

Yeah, I have an uncle that makes a ton of money (private doctor and has two practices). He's 70ish and still working and I don't think it's because he enjoys it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: countdown on August 31, 2015, 12:03:48 PM
Yup. $3k/mth rent, plus ft nanny, plus preschool for 2 kids, plus sitter, plus housekeeper 2x/mth, plus lawn service, plus pest control, plus two cars, plus eating out most meals, plus designer clothes for all four and lots of them, plus season Disney passes and regular trips to the bippity bippity boutique, plus massages, and weekends, and salons, and Mani/pedis, and car detailing. It's the ultimate in outsourcing and I don't think that either my sis or bil are happy. I've sent links and talked about FI and savings but so far fell on fallow ground.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: pbkmaine on August 31, 2015, 12:37:45 PM
When I was a financial planner, I used to see this all the time. Couples with extraordinary incomes fighting about money and unable to give up a single luxury. I finally could not take it any longer and shifted careers to retirement plan consulting instead.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: cripzychiken on August 31, 2015, 01:38:57 PM
When I was a financial planner, I used to see this all the time. Couples with extraordinary incomes fighting about money and unable to give up a single luxury. I finally could not take it any longer and shifted careers to retirement plan consulting instead.

completely off topic - but do you notice a difference in people who want "financial planning" vs "Retirement consulting".  It seems to me that the 2 jobs are probably 85% the same (investment choices/mixes, saving/spending ratios, long term planning), but by just changing the name of the service you are targeting a completely different demographic.
Title: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: pbkmaine on August 31, 2015, 03:32:48 PM
My clients are no longer individuals. They are organizations that offer retirement plans. As one of my colleagues said: "Companies don't call you at 9pm because they are worried about their Microsoft stock." Moving from individuals to companies made a huge positive improvement in the quality of my life.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: NoraLenderbee on August 31, 2015, 10:31:55 PM
Yup. $3k/mth rent, plus ft nanny, plus preschool for 2 kids, plus sitter, plus housekeeper 2x/mth, plus lawn service, plus pest control, plus two cars, plus eating out most meals, plus designer clothes for all four and lots of them, plus season Disney passes and regular trips to the bippity bippity boutique, plus massages, and weekends, and salons, and Mani/pedis, and car detailing. It's the ultimate in outsourcing and I don't think that either my sis or bil are happy. I've sent links and talked about FI and savings but so far fell on fallow ground.

Fulltime nanny *and* a baby-sitter? *And* preschool? What do they nanny and sitter do while the kids are in school--go to the racetrack?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LeRainDrop on August 31, 2015, 11:18:51 PM
Yup. $3k/mth rent, plus ft nanny, plus preschool for 2 kids, plus sitter, plus housekeeper 2x/mth, plus lawn service, plus pest control, plus two cars, plus eating out most meals, plus designer clothes for all four and lots of them, plus season Disney passes and regular trips to the bippity bippity boutique, plus massages, and weekends, and salons, and Mani/pedis, and car detailing. It's the ultimate in outsourcing and I don't think that either my sis or bil are happy. I've sent links and talked about FI and savings but so far fell on fallow ground.

Fulltime nanny *and* a baby-sitter? *And* preschool? What do they nanny and sitter do while the kids are in school--go to the racetrack?

I'm guessing the baby-sitter isn't full-time.  My mom is a nanny for two kids (4 yrs boy, 2 yrs girl) for 55 hours per week.  Starting this week, the older has three days of a few hours of pre-school, and the younger has I think two days of a couple hours pre-school.  Yet my mom barely has 15 minutes to sit down per day because there is always cleaning, dishes, laundry, shuttling the kids around, library, eating, etc.  I honestly don't know how my mom has the stamina for this, but she makes it work!  (Kids' parents are both doctors.  The dad bought the obligatory Mercedes after finishing residency, and they eat a lot of take-out dinners.  They are going to Disney World for a week in November.)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Jupiter on September 01, 2015, 04:56:56 AM
I suck at short posts so just read the second last paragraph ;)

I've always been into the MMM way since I started working at 18 without even knowing about this site. While growing up my parents kept buying investment properties and buying shares to build a passive income (giving me inspiration to do so myself). Both my parents went to UNI for years. My dad was a few months away from finishing the course then they said "the whole thing has changed you have to study all over again with the new standards" or whatever... From that day he has avoided UNI and education and has been doing odd jobs. My mum finished her course and was qualified to be a psychiatrist then gave birth the next day and that was it, never used her qualification for anything and stopped being a full time mum when her first child was 1 to do odd jobs. She soon realised she hated babies because they prevented her from working to earn money and me (her first child) was taken away from her for a month due to her threats to kill me so that I would stop crying. Don't worry though, she treated me much better as I grew up and was ok to share the story with me when I was a teenager.

They both now work 7 days a week doing odd jobs for over 10 hours a day. I was left by myself at home most of my childhood, grew up on my computer, got into programming and developed a few games gaining quite a fan base. I made forums and instantly gained hundreds of fan "friends" via skype. It got to the point where managing the forums took more time up than developing my games. I never sold the games, they were freeware. I've got this thing about disliking working for money. I'd prefer to see money roll in and work on what I want to work on without charging a cent. I completely gave up on development due to no time. I work a full time job now as well as some other jobs including babysitting and youtube which aren't so bad at all but I'm sick of editing videos and have a fanbase of almost 50K in subscribers so I can't let them down plus the income pays the rent so I can put all my money from my fulltime job into investments. I've gotten myself into the trap again of getting stuck with something I get sick off...

Anyway my parents hate work. My dad keeps going to the physio to fix up his bad back from his work... They are never home to enjoy their 2 million dollar beachside home (even after moving out of home I visit them at 8pm - 9pm on sundays when they finish work just for a chat). I remember my mum saying she never has time to just rest, she wishes she didn't have to work anymore so she could do things she wanted and get things done around the house. When I had just started working I heard her crying with my dad stating that she wanted me, my brothers and sisters, her and him to die in a car crash because there is no joy in this world. She said that way we will all die together. They are quite rich too (but want me to earn my own money through my own hands so didn't give me anything which I'm happy with anyway as I want to achieve financial freedom myself).

JUST READ THIS IF YOU ARE SHORT ON TIME
In a recent conversion with them I showed them a video of mr money moustache on Youtube and their reaction shattered me. They were like "that's what we already do" (they honestly do save/invest 70% of the $100,000 combined they earn each year previously putting it all towards investment properties. They sold all of em to get their 2 million dollar dream home). They were like yea we could sell this place and live in a place a quarter of the price, not work again and live off rent/interest for the rest of our lives but we wouldn't live as well. Then they started going on about expenses such as "my kids would never have been able to go to a private school costing 10K per year, we wouldn't have enough for it. We wouldn't be living in a lovely place now would we? These things cost money Sam!". I then tried to convince them that I would have been happier in a cheaper house growing up with my parents rather than growing up alone at home everyday with parents that bought me pc hardware to make up for not spending time with me. One of em (guess who) gave me the filthiest look you could imagine and just said "I can't believe after all the things we bought you as a child to make you happy, after sending you to a private school you would say such a terrible thing to us". I was then ordered to leave and I doubt our Sunday 8pm visits will continue.

It truly appears that some people can't wake up from the world... They aren't happy yet they continue their current lifestyle. Their dream home in the past 5 years has cost them over $400,000 to maintain mostly due to renovations to modernize from it's original 1950's state. I mean seriously! I can't change em but I won't make the same mistake as them. I'm retiring at 30 so I can be free from structured work. Once I'm retired I'll be an indie game developer working on games I want my way and I won't charge a cent for them. I'll go for walks, care for foster children and through making a difference in their life make myself happy to. I'll live in a 600K property and I'll be happy to be free.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cookie78 on September 01, 2015, 07:04:57 AM
I suck at short posts so just read the second last paragraph ;)

I've always been into the MMM way since I started working at 18 without even knowing about this site. While growing up my parents kept buying investment properties and buying shares to build a passive income (giving me inspiration to do so myself). Both my parents went to UNI for years. My dad was a few months away from finishing the course then they said "the whole thing has changed you have to study all over again with the new standards" or whatever... From that day he has avoided UNI and education and has been doing odd jobs. My mum finished her course and was qualified to be a psychiatrist then gave birth the next day and that was it, never used her qualification for anything and stopped being a full time mum when her first child was 1 to do odd jobs. She soon realised she hated babies because they prevented her from working to earn money and me (her first child) was taken away from her for a month due to her threats to kill me so that I would stop crying. Don't worry though, she treated me much better as I grew up and was ok to share the story with me when I was a teenager.

They both now work 7 days a week doing odd jobs for over 10 hours a day. I was left by myself at home most of my childhood, grew up on my computer, got into programming and developed a few games gaining quite a fan base. I made forums and instantly gained hundreds of fan "friends" via skype. It got to the point where managing the forums took more time up than developing my games. I never sold the games, they were freeware. I've got this thing about disliking working for money. I'd prefer to see money roll in and work on what I want to work on without charging a cent. I completely gave up on development due to no time. I work a full time job now as well as some other jobs including babysitting and youtube which aren't so bad at all but I'm sick of editing videos and have a fanbase of almost 50K in subscribers so I can't let them down plus the income pays the rent so I can put all my money from my fulltime job into investments. I've gotten myself into the trap again of getting stuck with something I get sick off...

Anyway my parents hate work. My dad keeps going to the physio to fix up his bad back from his work... They are never home to enjoy their 2 million dollar beachside home (even after moving out of home I visit them at 8pm - 9pm on sundays when they finish work just for a chat). I remember my mum saying she never has time to just rest, she wishes she didn't have to work anymore so she could do things she wanted and get things done around the house. When I had just started working I heard her crying with my dad stating that she wanted me, my brothers and sisters, her and him to die in a car crash because there is no joy in this world. She said that way we will all die together. They are quite rich too (but want me to earn my own money through my own hands so didn't give me anything which I'm happy with anyway as I want to achieve financial freedom myself).

JUST READ THIS IF YOU ARE SHORT ON TIME
In a recent conversion with them I showed them a video of mr money moustache on Youtube and their reaction shattered me. They were like "that's what we already do" (they honestly do save/invest 70% of the $100,000 combined they earn each year previously putting it all towards investment properties. They sold all of em to get their 2 million dollar dream home). They were like yea we could sell this place and live in a place a quarter of the price, not work again and live off rent/interest for the rest of our lives but we wouldn't live as well. Then they started going on about expenses such as "my kids would never have been able to go to a private school costing 10K per year, we wouldn't have enough for it. We wouldn't be living in a lovely place now would we? These things cost money Sam!". I then tried to convince them that I would have been happier in a cheaper house growing up with my parents rather than growing up alone at home everyday with parents that bought me pc hardware to make up for not spending time with me. One of em (guess who) gave me the filthiest look you could imagine and just said "I can't believe after all the things we bought you as a child to make you happy, after sending you to a private school you would say such a terrible thing to us". I was then ordered to leave and I doubt our Sunday 8pm visits will continue.

It truly appears that some people can't wake up from the world... They aren't happy yet they continue their current lifestyle. Their dream home in the past 5 years has cost them over $400,000 to maintain mostly due to renovations to modernize from it's original 1950's state. I mean seriously! I can't change em but I won't make the same mistake as them. I'm retiring at 30 so I can be free from structured work. Once I'm retired I'll be an indie game developer working on games I want my way and I won't charge a cent for them. I'll go for walks, care for foster children and through making a difference in their life make myself happy to. I'll live in a 600K property and I'll be happy to be free.

Wow. That's so sad for both you and for them.
/Hugs
All of the /hugs
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Jupiter on September 01, 2015, 07:22:52 AM
Thanks for the hugs, generally people don't read my wall of text comments. It's ok though, I handled my upbringing and I handled 100x worse at work which I won't go into. What you live becomes your neutral standard. I may have grown up in a lonely and at times depressing environment but because I didn't experience any better it's ok. If I grew up with an extremely loving family then had to swap over to this then that would be suffering... If I grew up on the streets of Africa completely homeless then swapping over to my childhood life would be a beautiful fantasy. Same goes for the mmm way. Start living it on day 1 and that initial sacrifice of not spending your entire paycheck each month is non-existent.

A lot of my work "mates" notice I never go on holidays as I'm too busy saving. They always say "Money doesn't buy happiness". My reply to that is "yes, money doesn't buy happiness, it buys freedom, and through freedom you experience happiness". One of em likes to save up for an 80K car every 5 years. I'd rather own a $10,000 car than a $80,000 car any day. I'd like to leave that person with my famous (ok not really famous) quote:

"Work isn't worth the reward"
- Sam/Jupiter 2015
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on September 01, 2015, 07:28:23 AM
Thanks for the hugs, generally people don't read my wall of text comments. It's ok though, I handled my upbringing and I handled 100x worse at work which I won't go into. What you live becomes your neutral standard. I may have grown up in a lonely and at times depressing environment but because I didn't experience any better it's ok. If I grew up with an extremely loving family then had to swap over to this then that would be suffering... If I grew up on the streets of Africa completely homeless then swapping over to my childhood life would be a beautiful fantasy. Same goes for the mmm way. Start living it on day 1 and that initial sacrifice of not spending your entire paycheck each month is non-existent.

Has your mother gotten mental health help? It really sounds like she could use it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Jupiter on September 01, 2015, 07:47:34 AM
Thanks for the hugs, generally people don't read my wall of text comments. It's ok though, I handled my upbringing and I handled 100x worse at work which I won't go into. What you live becomes your neutral standard. I may have grown up in a lonely and at times depressing environment but because I didn't experience any better it's ok. If I grew up with an extremely loving family then had to swap over to this then that would be suffering... If I grew up on the streets of Africa completely homeless then swapping over to my childhood life would be a beautiful fantasy. Same goes for the mmm way. Start living it on day 1 and that initial sacrifice of not spending your entire paycheck each month is non-existent.

Has your mother gotten mental health help? It really sounds like she could use it.

After being taken away from my mother for a month when I was a few months old a lady from child services stayed with her to watch her interactions with me on a weekly basis for a few months. Babies can put a lot of stress on mothers, I understand, it's fine and even if I was in spirit right now I'd still forgive her (I'm not religious though). There are a lot of evil people in this world and every moment I'm alive I try my best to pour as much good into it through my interactions with others. Lack of money prevents me from doing this effectively but through financial freedom I'll make great differences to the lives of many foster children. I'm called a doormat by many but I'd rather be a doormat than the murderer that tramples on it as he flees the crime scene.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on September 01, 2015, 09:03:01 AM
A lot of my work "mates" notice I never go on holidays as I'm too busy saving. They always say "Money doesn't buy happiness". My reply to that is "yes, money doesn't buy happiness, it buys freedom, and through freedom you experience happiness".
I was just working on a concise, catchy version of something like that last week. Very similar.
Quote
One of em likes to save up for an 80K car every 5 years.
If my heart's desire right now were an $80K car, and I had the discipline to save up cash for it, I'd buy $400K worth of rentals and finance the car at net zero total cash flow (totally feasible with the right terms). 5-7 years from now the car is paid off, I've built five figures in rental equity, and returns are still rising as loans are amortized.

Having your cake and eating it too is really not as hard as people think.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: debbie does duncan on September 01, 2015, 10:47:51 AM
My FIL 's sister  Carol and her husband Bob.
I am NOT related to these people at all.
Carol is to retire in 5-6 yrs. Bob is to retire in 8-10 yrs.Both work in GTA.
 Just sold their pd for house Downtown TO  for.......  their  retirement home,  1 hr outside TO.
 Since they are both still working ,  they have decided to live in the old  neighbourhood ,
 as they know it so well , in a rented condo.
 But wait.....there is more.....since they have so much stuff they are also renting the condo next to the first condo so they can have their stuff close by.
Carol and Bob are now living and  working on their retirement home on weekends and commuting Sunday nites to the condos to get the jump on rush hr traffic.
And she is the smart one.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on September 01, 2015, 11:13:36 AM
My FIL 's sister  Carol and her husband Bob.
I am NOT related to these people at all.
Carol is to retire in 5-6 yrs. Bob is to retire in 8-10 yrs.Both work in GTA.
 Just sold their pd for house Downtown TO  for.......  their  retirement home,  1 hr outside TO.
 Since they are both still working ,  they have decided to live in the old  neighbourhood ,
 as they know it so well , in a rented condo.
 But wait.....there is more.....since they have so much stuff they are also renting the condo next to the first condo so they can have their stuff close by.
Carol and Bob are now living and  working on their retirement home on weekends and commuting Sunday nites to the condos to get the jump on rush hr traffic.
And she is the smart one.

Didn't sound so horrible to me... until I heard the second rented condo. Holy cow.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on September 03, 2015, 08:38:37 AM
My aforementioned hopeless aunt and uncle are still living in the land of delusions.  My mother was having computer problems which is why she hadn't updated me plus she was busy with stuff like dealing with dental issues (always fun ugh).  According to her my aunt has now asked to move in with her which mom shot down in a fifth of a second.  In addition to my aunt's personality which is always crabby and her spending habits my stepfather and sister would kill her.

My uncle has taken to calling my mom from numbers not his in order to see if she answers the phone so he can ask for help.  Mom will not answer his calls in a welcome show of strength and resolve.  He will have to learn to survive on his own.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on September 03, 2015, 11:00:39 AM
When I was in college I lived with relatives for about two years. They'd talked the wife's mom into selling the home she'd lived in for years with her husband (he'd just died) so that they could put a down payment on a huuuuuuuge house in one of the nicest areas in the East Bay.

Perfect reasons to be moustachian and have your own income and your own (hopefully paid for) place to live. You never know when your friend or family might flake out on you.

I had that happen with a bit of clutter I was storing at a relative's place in a barn. They decided the barn needed to be empty except the tractor. Today years later it is still 90% empty. No reasons given on why suddenly it needed to be empty and there was never a time limit to the original storage favor.

I adapted a shed (lengthened it) to serve the same purpose. Just had to move it onto my property. In the long run I've been happier with that solution than being beholden to the relative for the 10x12 space I was using in their barn.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: StudioDweller on September 03, 2015, 12:29:53 PM
When I was in college I lived with relatives for about two years. They'd talked the wife's mom into selling the home she'd lived in for years with her husband (he'd just died) so that they could put a down payment on a huuuuuuuge house in one of the nicest areas in the East Bay.

Perfect reasons to be moustachian and have your own income and your own (hopefully paid for) place to live. You never know when your friend or family might flake out on you.

I had that happen with a bit of clutter I was storing at a relative's place in a barn. They decided the barn needed to be empty except the tractor. Today years later it is still 90% empty. No reasons given on why suddenly it needed to be empty and there was never a time limit to the original storage favor.

I adapted a shed (lengthened it) to serve the same purpose. Just had to move it onto my property. In the long run I've been happier with that solution than being beholden to the relative for the 10x12 space I was using in their barn.

Agreed. But when you're 17 and moving from one country to another and completely financially on your own... Not happening ;)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mm1970 on September 03, 2015, 12:59:01 PM
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.

Depends where you live. For a house in a decent area with ok schools you might not want to send your kids to costs a metric crap ton in some areas (SF, NY/NJ, DC, etc). Like $500k+ for not a war zone middle class area. That beaing said, it's still stupid, but I can totally understand how it can happen. The housing cost comes from my parents' place (worth about $750k). Much of that amount is taxes in addition to the rest of the normal maintenance, mortgage, etc. It's what you get for living outside NYC.
Yeah, my house was close to $800k and our school sucks.  We transfer to a different public school, but lots of people do private, at $20k to $40k a year per kid.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: FrugalWad on September 03, 2015, 08:41:14 PM
They always say "Money doesn't buy happiness".

That's an interesting position for them to take. Money doesn't buy happiness, but isn't that exactly what they're trying to do in spending everything in the pursuit of happiness?

I had a relative who wanted something. They were poor with financial decisions, so didn't have the money for it. It wasn't a lot of money for whatever they wanted, maybe just a couple hundred bucks. I suggested cutting back on a small vice, the daily soda, and in very short order the thing could be had. That was just inconceivable.

There were a few conversations I had with my grandparents about the times they bought cars. When two or three year financing were normal. That sounded amazing to me. I was too young to shave then, let alone grow a mustache. The conversations stayed with me for a long time. I was so wide-eyed and open-mouthed I was afraid my eyes and tongue were going to fall out when I found out I had another relative who had taken a 72 month loan to finance their brand new SUV. Six years to pay off a vehicle.

Another relative made $100,000+ after 30 years working, and has a pension of $60,000. Not a penny saved, and spending exceeds earnings to the point of needing a full time job in what should be early retirement.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: cripzychiken on September 04, 2015, 05:57:33 AM
My FIL 's sister  Carol and her husband Bob.
I am NOT related to these people at all.
Carol is to retire in 5-6 yrs. Bob is to retire in 8-10 yrs.Both work in GTA.
 Just sold their pd for house Downtown TO  for.......  their  retirement home,  1 hr outside TO.
 Since they are both still working ,  they have decided to live in the old  neighbourhood ,
 as they know it so well , in a rented condo.
 But wait.....there is more.....since they have so much stuff they are also renting the condo next to the first condo so they can have their stuff close by.
Carol and Bob are now living and  working on their retirement home on weekends and commuting Sunday nites to the condos to get the jump on rush hr traffic.
And she is the smart one.

So C&B sell 1 house to buy another and rent 2 more apartments?!??! I don't get why they sold in the first place.  Sounds like the 2 rents alone are going to be higher than their old mortgage, and that is ignoring the other house entirely.

Some people I can see the 'logic' they use to make their mistakes less 'stupid' in their eyes, but I can't even image where this came from.

Bob: Carol, great idea, the apartment down the street is renting for $500/month less than our mortgage, lets sell and move in there to save money!

Carol: Sure, but we should also buy a house out in the country while prices are lower.

Bob: Ok, makes sense, but we also have a lot of stuff, and I don't want to only get to not use it on the weekends, I want to be able to ignore it during the week too.  but the new apartment is too small, so let's also rent the apartment next to us to store our stuff in.  Since it is only a short walk away, we can always feel like it is right there, but still never actually, you know, go use it since that would require walking.

Carol: great idea, I'll call the realtor.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: SelfImprovementNinja on September 04, 2015, 09:57:05 PM
It's frustating to watch, but I have an aunt and uncle who are retired and their daughter, in her 50s, and two grandkids, in their 30s who leech off them.

The daughter has been helped out numerous times (paying HOA dues, downpayment for house etc.).  THey lent her money to start a hair salon, and it went under because she couldn't wake up and open the place before noon.  The place went under and that money is gone forever.

Her son (their grandson) was raised by my aunt and uncle and has 3 kids by different women and lived with them until he was almost 30. That winner doesn't want to go to school, and ended up working in an ice cream store and slipped and fell and injured his back.  He ended up needing surgery, and instead taking the insurance settlement and going to trade school or something, he bought a truck, jewelry for his wife, and they all went on a vacation. Now he's broke again.

Their grandaughter, who lost her house, was saving up to buy another house so she moved into their house (rent free) with her husband and 2 kids (yes, my aunt and uncle are supporting their great grandkids). They were in there almost 2 years, and never did so much as buy groceries once. They bought a place, and renovated it while still living with my aunt and unlce.  They fixed the pool first, so they could go there and cool off and have parties.  It took months to finish the house because they only worked on it on the weekends...when they weren't tired or weren't having pool parties.

To add insult to injury, the grandaughter has a 2015 blinged out SUV.  I told her she is broke because of doing stupid stuff like leasing that truck.  She proceeded to tell me how stupid I was, because she's saving money since she's leasing it because it's $200 a month cheaper to lease it than to buy it because of her bad credit. And she's NOT broke she just had bad credit because of when she wasn't paying her bills on time.  The stupid, it burns!

And...she didn't want to sell her furniture while she was living with my aunt and uncle so she was paying $200+ a month to store it...for 2 years. And this isn't Ethan Allen furniture we're talking about.

My aunt and uncle were planning on selling their house and getting something smaller because they are retired and running out of money from supporting all these deadbeats, but they couldn't sell their house until their granddaughter finished her house because "where would she and the kids live?" 

Aunt and uncle both have health problems and need to sell their house (the stairs are difficult for them) and these parasites are indifferent to their suffering and want to suck them dry.  When they pass away, I have no idea how they will survive after they blow through what little they have left of their inheritance.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on September 06, 2015, 05:14:51 PM
That is so very sad. Too bad they never learned to say no to those deadbeat kids.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Dollar Slice on September 13, 2015, 04:28:05 PM
I can't quite say my parents "don't get it" because they are wealthy and have a lot of savings and a nearly paid-off house... but this killed me. My mom told me that they were at their favorite restaurant and their favorite waiter came over to tell them that they'd been doing the books for the year and they discovered that my mom and dad are their #1 most frequent (I think he called it "most loyal") customers. She said she was surprised because they "only" go there for lunch once a week together, plus she'll go sometimes with a friend for lunch, plus they'll go for dinner every couple of weeks, and sometimes they'll go with a group of friends, etc. Rough guesstimate, I think it's possible they are spending $5k annually at ONE RESTAURANT.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on September 16, 2015, 06:00:49 AM
This one pretty much bugged me off and on all night.

Visited with my parents over Labor Day weekend for a few hours. They started on my teenager about getting his license in six months. Then the conversation turned into what kind of car do you want - we'll have it here in a few days. Dangling carrots in front of a hopeful teenager. On hte ride home afterwards I expected I'd have to let him down gently but he said he figured out their "game" fairly quickly that evening. He knew how they were. They did this to me a couple of times when I was younger. Its like teasing a dog with a steak and its just cruel.

Then last night they call up having found a similar vehicle to what he described and proceeded to lecture me about how I needed to move quick on this purchase. It has 250K miles and looks good I'm told - except pretty much everything needs TLC inside and out - but it's cheap so it's okay. $1K for the purchase and I figure another $$$ for insurance and another $1K or more in repairs - even if I do them myself. Luckily for us - I took the call and not my teenager. They shouldn't be dangling the carrot like that.

The point is - he's 15. He doesn't need a vehicle and can't afford any part of a vehicle at this point. He's worked all summer part time (weekends), babysat his younger brother for us and we're proud of him putting his obligations ahead of fun. Still  he couldn't afford to buy a set of SUV tires despite the fact that he's saved 90% of his money.

Its isn't that he doesn't deserve a vehicle but there are a couple of stipulations to getting a driver's license. He must have a minimum GPA which will help us get an insurance discount.

What bugs me is how my parents don't seem to have interest in what my rules might be. They want to kick off the driving conversation without asking me of my wife - the parents - what the rules might be.

And then there is the fact that he doesn't NEED a vehicle. We have a spare family car that is usually sitting around here doing nothing b/c we carpool everyday back and forth to work/school. I don't WANT to spend $2K+ on some clunker when we don't need one.

This is just a repeat of them buying him a TV without checking with us. Wouldn't do him any good without  satellite or cable TV b/c we can't receive OTA TV here b/c we are in a small town far from a big city. Then there was the Android tablet which they bought and then asked in front of him - oh - didn't you want him to have a tablet? Nevermind we had a tablet at home (purchased with CC points) and an iPad supplied by my wife's employer. They said "oh, he needs his own tablet".

I seriously worry about them buying him a vehicle without our permission. Here is a clunker that will need to be repaired many times. When I addressed it last night in an email the reply was "WHATEVER" (their caps...). Well - that was unusually juvenile. I was informed that my sister (the favored child) is getting ready to buy her son (same age within months of our teen) a vehicle, so we ought to buy our son a vehicle. She is a "spendypants" so I expect it to be excessive for a 16 year old. We do NOT play "Keeping up with the Joneses". I'll be a complainer here for a moment and point out that they can afford it b/c her husband has received many $$$ gifts over the years plus my sister was given a college education where I had to pay for my own. She also got matching money for her cars through graduation whereas I had to buy, insure, fuel and repair my own vehicles. Yeah - sounds a bit like a fairy tale there.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on September 16, 2015, 06:46:09 AM
That sucks to hear, Joe.

Interested to hear what kind of car your niece ends up with though. lol
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: merula on September 16, 2015, 07:43:18 AM
....crazy parents story....

That's awful. I feel for you, Joe. But good for you for raising your son to see through their BS.

Can you talk to your son about the true costs of owning a vehicle, compared to what you're offering? I'm not entirely sure what you're offering him (free use of the spare car? shared gas/insurance costs?), but it sounds like he's got a good head on his shoulders and it'd be  great if he would tell his grandparents he doesn't want their offer because you've given him something better.

My kids are much younger, so this may or may not be relevant to you, but I was about two steps away from severely reducing my parents' contact with them over buying things against my wishes. After several "Please don't buy things for them" conversations, I switched to "Do NOT bring anything into my house without my expressed permission, or I don't know what I'll do." That seems to have worked, but my next step was "If I can't trust you to listen to me, then I can't trust you around my children. Bring one more thing into my house and they will see you at holidays only."
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on September 16, 2015, 08:25:45 AM
Seeing through bullshit is a skill that will serve your son well.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: debbie does duncan on September 16, 2015, 08:36:19 AM
Hello Average Joe................your parents suck!
They are narcissists.
You have been taking their abuse for too long. I am sorry to hear this.
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.
Head over there pls, for the peace of mind knowing you are not alone.
It is not your fault they are broken.
Good luck
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooperman on September 16, 2015, 08:44:06 AM
Hello Average Joe................your parents suck!
They are narcissists.
You have been taking their abuse for too long. I am sorry to hear this.
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.
Head over there pls, for the peace of mind knowing you are not alone.
It is not your fault they are broken.
Good luck

This. You are not alone. My father is one and is no longer a part of my life. Life's too short to spend your time dealing with shit like that... i mean, it's the longest thing you'll ever do, but do you really want to put up with it? Most of the people on this forum are aiming for FIRE for various reasons, chief among them is getting away from work environments as toxic as your parents!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: irishbear99 on September 16, 2015, 08:49:21 AM
Seeing through bullshit is a skill that will serve your son well.

+1

You can't control what your parents do, but you can continue to talk to your son and help him continue to develop his bullshit-spotting skills. If nothing else, that will help keep him grounded in reality, especially when he comes into contact with crazy like that.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Fishindude on September 16, 2015, 08:55:42 AM
Spent a recent weekend with brother and sister in law, our kids and a bunch of nieces & nephews.

The kids are all late 20's to mid 30's starting families, etc.  All of them in over their heads with a couple new cars with payments per family and $250,000 homes on 30 year mortgages, none of them carry cash, everything goes on credit cards, etc.   Discussions about trading cars because they have 60,000 miles and taking out home equity loans to do house remodeling and additions, etc.  Their parents are in the same boat and have basically shown them how to "live the good life".

We've always lived pretty frugal and have done things "cash and carry" for the most part, and kids are operating similarly.  Could see my kids taking this all in and kind of rolling their eyes.  They just paid off their "affordable home" and and carry very little debt.   Made me proud, but at the same time, it's sad to see high earners digging such holes for themselves.
 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AlanStache on September 16, 2015, 09:55:09 AM
Spent a recent weekend with brother and sister in law, our kids and a bunch of nieces & nephews.

The kids are all late 20's to mid 30's starting families, etc.  All of them in over their heads with a couple new cars with payments per family and $250,000 homes on 30 year mortgages, none of them carry cash, everything goes on credit cards, etc.   Discussions about trading cars because they have 60,000 miles and taking out home equity loans to do house remodeling and additions, etc.  Their parents are in the same boat and have basically shown them how to "live the good life".

We've always lived pretty frugal and have done things "cash and carry" for the most part, and kids are operating similarly.  Could see my kids taking this all in and kind of rolling their eyes.  They just paid off their "affordable home" and and carry very little debt.   Made me proud, but at the same time, it's sad to see high earners digging such holes for themselves.

Small O.T. quibble - CC are not inherently bad if paid off regularly and can yield good bonuses.  But I understand if some people find it easier/simpler to not use them at all.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on September 16, 2015, 10:11:25 AM
Spent a recent weekend with brother and sister in law, our kids and a bunch of nieces & nephews.

The kids are all late 20's to mid 30's starting families, etc.  All of them in over their heads with a couple new cars with payments per family and $250,000 homes on 30 year mortgages, none of them carry cash, everything goes on credit cards, etc.   Discussions about trading cars because they have 60,000 miles and taking out home equity loans to do house remodeling and additions, etc.  Their parents are in the same boat and have basically shown them how to "live the good life".

We've always lived pretty frugal and have done things "cash and carry" for the most part, and kids are operating similarly.  Could see my kids taking this all in and kind of rolling their eyes.  They just paid off their "affordable home" and and carry very little debt.   Made me proud, but at the same time, it's sad to see high earners digging such holes for themselves.

Small O.T. quibble - CC are not inherently bad if paid off regularly and can yield good bonuses.  But I understand if some people find it easier/simpler to not use them at all.

That's how I use them, but all too many people use them without thinking and then make minimum payments, or don't pay off the entire balance, which can lead to some unpleasant results.

It's pathetic how often people in a TV show will mention needing to "pay off my credit card."
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: eyesonthehorizon on September 16, 2015, 07:36:20 PM
He knew how they were. They did this to me a couple of times when I was younger. Its like teasing a dog with a steak and its just cruel.

Good on you especially for 1. raising him to carry some skepticism and 2. being there to support him through that experience. When I was younger and very desperate I had a wealthy relative who would occasionally throw pipe dreams in front of myself and my sibling (forgotten the next day) - and which one of my parents would get drunk and elaborate on. I always took it with a whole saltshaker, but that's not to say that it didn't creep into my head (or hurt) at all by creating a mental alternative to an existing (very bad!) situation, and having my parent additionally play along and assure me it was all going to work out somehow made it very hard to ignore even when I rationally knew better. Being reaffirmed that it was unrealistic and unlikely, even if it wasn't fun news to hear, would have meant a lot to me at that time and given me a lot of respect for their honesty, for both demonstrating and entrusting me with responsibility instead of appealing empty fantasies or irresponsible decisions.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on September 16, 2015, 08:24:08 PM
When I was younger and very desperate I had a wealthy relative who would occasionally throw pipe dreams in front of myself and my sibling (forgotten the next day) - and which one of my parents would get drunk and elaborate on. I always took it with a whole saltshaker, but that's not to say that it didn't creep into my head (or hurt) at all by creating a mental alternative to an existing (very bad!) situation, and having my parent additionally play along and assure me it was all going to work out somehow made it very hard to ignore even when I rationally knew better. Being reaffirmed that it was unrealistic and unlikely, even if it wasn't fun news to hear, would have meant a lot to me at that time and given me a lot of respect for their honesty, for both demonstrating and entrusting me with responsibility instead of appealing empty fantasies or irresponsible decisions.

Hey, you'll laugh but as recently as a year ago (I'm a father in his 40s) I was naive enough to assume that my parents were the most squared away people I knew who always had my best interests in mind 100% of the time.

I still think they THINK they have my best intentions in mind but sometimes their execution leaves a bit to be desired. ;)

Had my wife and I been close friends when we were young teens - and we could have used each other for a sounding board like we do today - life would have been much easier and entertaining. ;)

Here's to some age and wisdom!!!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Lian on September 16, 2015, 08:42:28 PM
Hello Average Joe................your parents suck!
They are narcissists.
You have been taking their abuse for too long. I am sorry to hear this.
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.
Head over there pls, for the peace of mind knowing you are not alone.
It is not your fault they are broken.
Good luck

This. You are not alone. My father is one and is no longer a part of my life. Life's too short to spend your time dealing with shit like that... i mean, it's the longest thing you'll ever do, but do you really want to put up with it? Most of the people on this forum are aiming for FIRE for various reasons, chief among them is getting away from work environments as toxic as your parents!

Narcissist parents - exactly!  Your parents show typical narcissist boundary and control issues. And your sister is the 'favored' sibling - another typical narcissist game. Good for you that you aren't easily manipulated by them.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on September 21, 2015, 09:53:59 AM
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.

Spent some time over the past week reading my way through that thread. Don't think my parents are as bad as some of those stories on Reddit but they have had their moments.

Talked to them over the weekend. Expected the "big chill" but there were no problems. That's how they've handled other "disputes" (different opinions about a given topic).

They pointedly didn't want to talk about the car situation but then my email probably said more than enough on the topic. Nothing left to discuss.

That's okay. Life goes on. ;)

On the home front my "soon to be driving" teenager showed his teenager-ness today. Seems he forgot his lunch, no lunch money in his pocket, and his English teacher calls us because she wants him to see her during lunch time for some tutoring on some topic they are working on in class.

He has been avoiding her in favor of eating lunch with his friends.

This doesn't bode well for getting a license, getting his grades up a notch (only a notch to meet our expectations), and demonstrating that his head is turned on enough to operate a vehicle. ;) I say all this in humor b/c I'm not going to get bent out of shape over this yet. The joys of children!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: bagap on September 22, 2015, 09:20:31 AM
Hello Average Joe................your parents suck!
They are narcissists.
You have been taking their abuse for too long. I am sorry to hear this.
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.
Head over there pls, for the peace of mind knowing you are not alone.
It is not your fault they are broken.
Good luck

Made my day! :D
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: RetiredAt63 on October 07, 2015, 03:55:21 PM
Hi Joe Average

They are not doing your sister any favours by having her as the favoured child.  Look at her financial situation and entitled child.  Much as it hurts you at times, you are building a better life than she is. 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ash7962 on October 09, 2015, 12:45:06 PM
*sigh*.  There's a lot of back story here that I won't go into.  Earlier this year my dad decided it was a good idea to move their large nest egg from their bank account to a 60/40 split between VTI and BND (stock and bond index funds), yayyy.  Today I take a peek into my parent's finances (I have permission) and I find that over the last few months dad has occasionally sold 5-15k of shares then bought them back later that day or in the next couple days.  That happens a few times until he finally just sells off his whole position.  Meaning he bought the majority of his shares before the end of July then sold them by the end of September.... basically buying high and selling low.  I added up all his buying and selling and he's netted himself -20,800$.  He sold the majority at 97.88$ and its now back up to 103.67$.  This is all after he lost 30k in May of this year due to his options trading.  Based off everything I've seen this year, he can't manage their money objectively, and is investing off of emotion more than logical reasoning.  They do still have a decent nest egg since they were great at saving before dad lost his job and started options trading full time.  He even spent 5 years trading options where he generally broke even or had some gains, and I'm not sure if that was good luck or if he does have some skill.  I just hope he is lucky enough to see their money last for the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on October 09, 2015, 12:48:24 PM
^^^ This is one thing I like about Vanguard, they don't allow people to frequently sell their mutual funds, as it raises their expenses (and consequently ours).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: seathink on October 09, 2015, 01:27:21 PM
If your kid died, what are you going to do with the money? Buy yourself a car? "OK, let's go drive around in little Timmie's death dividend". Wouldn't you hate that car?

I just hate how children's life insurance is marketed. The language makes it sound as though purchasing it is somehow ensuring your child's life continues instead of giving you a check if they die.

This has to be a band name someday!!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: codemonkey on October 09, 2015, 02:06:45 PM
*sigh*.  There's a lot of back story here that I won't go into.  Earlier this year my dad decided it was a good idea to move their large nest egg from their bank account to a 60/40 split between VTI and BND (stock and bond index funds), yayyy.  Today I take a peek into my parent's finances (I have permission) and I find that over the last few months dad has occasionally sold 5-15k of shares then bought them back later that day or in the next couple days.  That happens a few times until he finally just sells off his whole position.  Meaning he bought the majority of his shares before the end of July then sold them by the end of September.... basically buying high and selling low.  I added up all his buying and selling and he's netted himself -20,800$.  He sold the majority at 97.88$ and its now back up to 103.67$.  This is all after he lost 30k in May of this year due to his options trading.  Based off everything I've seen this year, he can't manage their money objectively, and is investing off of emotion more than logical reasoning.  They do still have a decent nest egg since they were great at saving before dad lost his job and started options trading full time.  He even spent 5 years trading options where he generally broke even or had some gains, and I'm not sure if that was good luck or if he does have some skill.  I just hope he is lucky enough to see their money last for the rest of their lives.

My closest friend during the end of college had a similar issue with his father.  The dad sold his business for 2 million and retired into option/day trading.  4-5 years later he was broke and had lost everything.  The rest of the family was clueless until everything had already fallen apart and their dad was addicted to alcohol / drugs.  Obviously this is an extreme case, but it can happen.

I hope you can sit down and help your parents out, or at least warn them of the dangers.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on October 09, 2015, 02:12:41 PM
*sigh*.  There's a lot of back story here that I won't go into.  Earlier this year my dad decided it was a good idea to move their large nest egg from their bank account to a 60/40 split between VTI and BND (stock and bond index funds), yayyy.  Today I take a peek into my parent's finances (I have permission) and I find that over the last few months dad has occasionally sold 5-15k of shares then bought them back later that day or in the next couple days.  That happens a few times until he finally just sells off his whole position.  Meaning he bought the majority of his shares before the end of July then sold them by the end of September.... basically buying high and selling low.  I added up all his buying and selling and he's netted himself -20,800$.  He sold the majority at 97.88$ and its now back up to 103.67$.  This is all after he lost 30k in May of this year due to his options trading.  Based off everything I've seen this year, he can't manage their money objectively, and is investing off of emotion more than logical reasoning.  They do still have a decent nest egg since they were great at saving before dad lost his job and started options trading full time.  He even spent 5 years trading options where he generally broke even or had some gains, and I'm not sure if that was good luck or if he does have some skill.  I just hope he is lucky enough to see their money last for the rest of their lives.

My closest friend during the end of college had a similar issue with his father.  The dad sold his business for 2 million and retired into option/day trading.  4-5 years later he was broke and had lost everything.  The rest of the family was clueless until everything had already fallen apart and their dad was addicted to alcohol / drugs.  Obviously this is an extreme case, but it can happen.

I hope you can sit down and help your parents out, or at least warn them of the dangers.

I suspect this is what keeps my dad working. He has enough to retire off of easily, but doesn't really have much to do during the day and all his friends still work and he doesn't like golf. I keep trying to have him go on longer vacations (like instead of going to my brother's for Thanksgiving, stay a few days longer and see his brother who lives like an hour away).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: johnny847 on October 09, 2015, 02:14:51 PM
^^^ This is one thing I like about Vanguard, they don't allow people to frequently sell their mutual funds, as it raises their expenses (and consequently ours).

They have this policy on paper. But in practice this "frequent trading policy" is easily circumvented:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Frequent_trading_policy#Setting_up_a_one-shot_automatic_transfer (https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Frequent_trading_policy#Setting_up_a_one-shot_automatic_transfer)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on October 09, 2015, 02:16:09 PM
^^^ This is one thing I like about Vanguard, they don't allow people to frequently sell their mutual funds, as it raises their expenses (and consequently ours).

They have this policy on paper. But in practice this "frequent trading policy" is easily circumvented:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Frequent_trading_policy#Setting_up_a_one-shot_automatic_transfer (https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Frequent_trading_policy#Setting_up_a_one-shot_automatic_transfer)

Oh I know loopholes around it, but still enjoy that there are some minor safeguards.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ash7962 on October 09, 2015, 02:45:47 PM
*sigh*.  There's a lot of back story here that I won't go into.  Earlier this year my dad decided it was a good idea to move their large nest egg from their bank account to a 60/40 split between VTI and BND (stock and bond index funds), yayyy.  Today I take a peek into my parent's finances (I have permission) and I find that over the last few months dad has occasionally sold 5-15k of shares then bought them back later that day or in the next couple days.  That happens a few times until he finally just sells off his whole position.  Meaning he bought the majority of his shares before the end of July then sold them by the end of September.... basically buying high and selling low.  I added up all his buying and selling and he's netted himself -20,800$.  He sold the majority at 97.88$ and its now back up to 103.67$.  This is all after he lost 30k in May of this year due to his options trading.  Based off everything I've seen this year, he can't manage their money objectively, and is investing off of emotion more than logical reasoning.  They do still have a decent nest egg since they were great at saving before dad lost his job and started options trading full time.  He even spent 5 years trading options where he generally broke even or had some gains, and I'm not sure if that was good luck or if he does have some skill.  I just hope he is lucky enough to see their money last for the rest of their lives.

My closest friend during the end of college had a similar issue with his father.  The dad sold his business for 2 million and retired into option/day trading.  4-5 years later he was broke and had lost everything.  The rest of the family was clueless until everything had already fallen apart and their dad was addicted to alcohol / drugs.  Obviously this is an extreme case, but it can happen.

I hope you can sit down and help your parents out, or at least warn them of the dangers.

Ugh we HAVE talked about investing dangers.  I've stressed that even when the market goes down he hasn't actually lost the money until he sells.  He also has knowledge of investing strategy and he knows that index funds are a buy and hold strategy.  We've talked about not being able to time the market.  Honestly, they have enough of a nest egg to absorb this mistake and still retire comfortably (though they would have to lower their current spending slightly).  They could potentially be retired right now if they followed MMM principals.  It just hurts to see them lose 20k for no reason.  It also worries me because my mom has said that he is very emotionally tied to his options trading.  He mood swings with his trades.  Right now he's got a job and has some room to make these mistakes, but I'm worried he'll end up like your friend's father.  I'll just really really hope that this was a 1 time bad choice.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on October 09, 2015, 03:39:19 PM
My closest friend during the end of college had a similar issue with his father.  The dad sold his business for 2 million and retired into option/day trading.  4-5 years later he was broke and had lost everything.  The rest of the family was clueless until everything had already fallen apart and their dad was addicted to alcohol / drugs.  Obviously this is an extreme case, but it can happen.

I hope you can sit down and help your parents out, or at least warn them of the dangers.

This is one of the things that often happens when two halves of a married couple aren't equal partners and decision makers in the money management and investment department.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: merula on October 09, 2015, 04:02:31 PM
They could potentially be retired right now if they followed MMM principals.

I'm struggling with whether this is a typo or not, as it's true either way.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: ash7962 on October 11, 2015, 12:12:23 PM
Update on the above where my dad sold off his VTI position @ 97.88$.  I had an in person convo with dad yesterday. 
I asked about dad selling all their VTI shares as well as why he was had been selling shares then buying them back later in the day or a couple days later.  He told me that he was selling/buying to "adjust their position".  Then he told me that he needed to sell the VTI so that he'd have the cash to cover his options positions which have made up for the 20k dip in VTI.  He said VTI was going down and he expects it to keep going down, so it was smart to sell.  I told him he was just back in the same position he was in right before he lost the 30k earlier in the year, but he tells me its different now because he also has money invested in bonds.  At that point I was pretty much done.  Its also worth noting that my mom had no idea he had done any of it.  I've decided there is nothing I can do with dad and I will just remove myself from their financial life.  This is a bit of speculation, but I think he trades in options because he can't stomach waiting for the total market to go up and believes he can make money faster with options.  I honestly hope he lucks out and 20 years from now will be able to say he told me so.

Fun side stories:
#1: When they first picked me up from the train station my mom tells me they were thinking about trading in their ~13 year old van for a new hybrid car (they'd do this in a year or two).  They say its time because the van will be about 15 years old which is long enough to have a car.  The car has 65k miles on it and they don't even need 2 cars because they live within a 15 minute walk of both my mom's house and the grocery store.

#2: We were getting pizza and going to see a movie to celebrate mine and my mom's birthday.  After we had pizza we walked to the nearby walgreens for some movie candy.  We were all standing in the candy aisle and talking about how we were so full from the pizza and not in the mood for candy.  My SO and I opted to not get any, so we wandered off while my parents decided.  They walked out of the aisle a couple minutes later with 4 boxes of candy because there was a 4 for x dollars deal so just had to take advantage of it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: regulator on October 11, 2015, 03:42:57 PM
I have one.  Dad called me this morning to ask about his life insurance policy (fun times on Sunday morning).  He has an old (20+ years) universal life policy still kicking around which he frankly does not need.  The policy has a 70k cash value and a 200k face value, but he was finally worried about it because in his most recent statement the interest no longer covers the annual policy charges.  I told him he should think about cashing it in.  "But then mom won't get 200k when I die."  Yes, dad, but instead you will get 70k which can be invested since you don't really need the money.  "But we will spend it if we cash in the policy."  I facepalm.

As is usual with Dad (who always wants to buy at the top and sell at the bottom), I think I will nudge him around to the right decision after a few tries and several aggravating phone calls.  But I have not gotten him to get the idea of time value of money in 15 years of trying.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on October 11, 2015, 07:16:35 PM
Hi Joe Average

They are not doing your sister any favours by having her as the favoured child.  Look at her financial situation and entitled child.  Much as it hurts you at times, you are building a better life than she is.

Thanks. parents are off at sister's new (as in different) abode this weekend. I'm sure I'll hear when the parents get back how everything is shiny and better than average. Don't care either way. Glad she has a roof over her head and a job. Maybe living out of state will be good for her (them all). Haven't heard from her but once since last Christmas. Not that I'm making any efforts either.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: PencilThinStash on October 12, 2015, 02:22:01 PM
Short version:

Grandpa is hesitant about the big family beach vacation this year, says that he's worried about it getting too expensive. The rest of us realize that every year, in addition to himself and Grandma, he's also been paying the expenses for several aunts and one of my cousins.

We all start discussing. The aunts (mid 50's) agree that they can afford their own share of the beach house, if the alternative is no vacation.

When my cousin was told that she'd have to pay for part of the vacation this year, she started getting worried.  "Is Grandpa having financial trouble? Is that why we're all pitching in to help cover his share?" Keep in mind - this cousin is 30 years old, married (DUAL INCOME!), with 3 kids.

She doesn't understand why an 85 year old retiree on a fixed income isn't paying for their vacation.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: HairyUpperLip on October 13, 2015, 06:51:28 AM
Short version:

Grandpa is hesitant about the big family beach vacation this year, says that he's worried about it getting too expensive. The rest of us realize that every year, in addition to himself and Grandma, he's also been paying the expenses for several aunts and one of my cousins.

We all start discussing. The aunts (mid 50's) agree that they can afford their own share of the beach house, if the alternative is no vacation.

When my cousin was told that she'd have to pay for part of the vacation this year, she started getting worried.  "Is Grandpa having financial trouble? Is that why we're all pitching in to help cover his share?" Keep in mind - this cousin is 30 years old, married (DUAL INCOME!), with 3 kids.

She doesn't understand why an 85 year old retiree on a fixed income isn't paying for their vacation.

You are better than me. I'd be happy to inform any of my cousins that they are fucking retarded if they expect my grandmother to do that for them. Sad part is, my grandmother already does way too much for people. :(
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on October 13, 2015, 09:12:12 AM
Short version:

Grandpa is hesitant about the big family beach vacation this year, says that he's worried about it getting too expensive. The rest of us realize that every year, in addition to himself and Grandma, he's also been paying the expenses for several aunts and one of my cousins.

We all start discussing. The aunts (mid 50's) agree that they can afford their own share of the beach house, if the alternative is no vacation.

When my cousin was told that she'd have to pay for part of the vacation this year, she started getting worried.  "Is Grandpa having financial trouble? Is that why we're all pitching in to help cover his share?" Keep in mind - this cousin is 30 years old, married (DUAL INCOME!), with 3 kids.

She doesn't understand why an 85 year old retiree on a fixed income isn't paying for their vacation.

You are better than me. I'd be happy to inform any of my cousins that they are fucking retarded if they expect my grandmother to do that for them. Sad part is, my grandmother already does way too much for people. :(

Yup, I'm somewhat proud of myself of saying that I can't go on vacation with a bunch of my family for Christmas. They are going to an all-inclusive resort in Mexico for a week. I barely spend money on vacation for myself and spending a week with family is far from what I would consider to be relaxing or entertaining. If it was at someone's house that would be one thing, but to spend a ton of money to stay at a resort is worse. I'm glad my parents haven't offered to pay and that most of the family hasn't lobbied me to go (they can get pretty crafty at this). Also, I do feel guilty but my parents and sister are going to go to my brother's place for Thanksgiving. To go I would need to fly out on Wednesday and fly back at the latest on Sunday, when tickets would be insane, and I couldn't justify it. I'll send an email apology to my brother and spend Thanksgiving with a good friend, but yeah I'm not going to let someone pay for my vacation.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: frugalparagon on October 13, 2015, 05:23:52 PM
I let my family pay for my vacation. They can afford it. I can't. They want to see me. I want to see them. We My mom pays most of it, my aunt chips in, and my grandfather usually fronts some, too. I think he's paying for most of it next year to get us to come to a beach more conveniently located for him. (Our habit is to rent a large beach house. We go out for some meals, generally paid for by Aunt as she's the restaurant fiend, and my dad cooks most of the meals at the house.)

I budget a few hundred dollars. My mom will always demure when I leap out at the gas station with my credit card, but I assure her that I have a vacation budget and will stop offering to pay for things once I reach it. It works for us.

I wonder if part of the dynamic with the cousin who's worried about paying is in her marriage. My husband does not entirely approve of our booze-heavy beach vacations (which he does not attend, by his own choice) and with our limited funds, he would be very opposed to my laying them out on this trip. There can be a funny dynamic between one's spouse and one's family of origin.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: PencilThinStash on October 14, 2015, 09:25:13 AM
I let my family pay for my vacation. They can afford it. I can't. They want to see me. I want to see them.

I totally get that - I guess my shock just came from the fact that nobody's ever reevaluated how vacations get paid for. We started doing this 20 years ago, and based on a group of 15 and everyone's financial positions at the time, it made sense for my dad to pay for 1/3 of the house (his group of 5), my uncle to pay 1/3 (ditto), and Grandpa to pay 1/3. The 2 aunts and my cousin wouldn't have been able to come otherwise. We're a pretty close family, we wanted everyone there.

Not a big deal when Grandpa's working, all the cousins are 10 or under, and you're staying in a cramped little house a couple blocks back from the beach.

But when the house has ballooned to an extravagant monstrosity right on the water? When the group has expanded and grown up (half of the cousins are out of college and working now), and nobody is riding the line of destitution anymore... an even 3 way split doesn't make sense at this point

My dad approached me, my uncle approached 2 of his kids, and asked if we were willing to pitch in for our own share of the house. Granted, the 3 of us are splitting a single room with 2 sets of bunk beds. Each of us covering 1/3 of a single bedroom, in an 8 bedroom house, isn't huge money. Still, we're functional, working adults. It was actually a little surprising that we haven't been asked to contribute sooner (and after discussing it internally, the sanity of the older generation is now in question for letting this go on for so long).

I get that my cousin is needing to pay for multiple rooms (1 for her and husband, 1 for 3 kids), compared to my little portion of one room, but come on. The fact that she committed to the vacation, and then backed out the minute she found out she'd have to pay for it? And has since refused to talk to specific family members that she blames for shaking everything up? It's f'ing petulant.

/rant

Hell, maybe it's responsible that she backed out, and they really can't afford it. Better than putting it on credit cards, I guess.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on October 14, 2015, 09:51:00 AM

I totally get that - I guess my shock just came from the fact that nobody's ever reevaluated how vacations get paid for.

THIS!!! I had my vacations paid for when I was growing up and in college, I get that. But some people seem to think some magical vacation fairy just pays for everything. I always understood that my parents paid for my vacations and appreciate it, they did so because they enjoyed having me. Now that I am earning my own money, I'm expected to pay my own way, and I completely understand. I like that they recognize that I may not spend the money to fly out as a result. I'm just glad that they haven't tried to offer to pay for me to go.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AllieVaulter on October 14, 2015, 10:38:19 AM
My parents both retired this year and they want to pay for a family vacation.  It's weird.  They haven't paid for me to go on a vacation in 10 years.  But they really want to cover the expenses.  I felt really weird for a while, but I've decided to just go with it.  They budgeted for this vacation, it's their retirement celebration, and to be honest if I were paying, I probably wouldn't go.  We're going to Disneyland & Legoland.  I'm pretty sure they picked the location for maximum enjoyment of the two grandkids.  :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: maco on October 14, 2015, 10:42:32 AM
I let my family pay for my vacation. They can afford it. I can't. They want to see me. I want to see them.

I totally get that - I guess my shock just came from the fact that nobody's ever reevaluated how vacations get paid for. We started doing this 20 years ago, and based on a group of 15 and everyone's financial positions at the time, it made sense for my dad to pay for 1/3 of the house (his group of 5), my uncle to pay 1/3 (ditto), and Grandpa to pay 1/3. The 2 aunts and my cousin wouldn't have been able to come otherwise. We're a pretty close family, we wanted everyone there.

Not a big deal when Grandpa's working, all the cousins are 10 or under, and you're staying in a cramped little house a couple blocks back from the beach.
I'm confused that the conversation with the one who balked couldn't be as short as "you're a grown up now, and grown ups pay for themselves."

The first family reunion after I turned 18, I was expected to pay my way (as opposed to the family reunion where I turned 18...fun little quirk of timing that my birthday-and-leaving-early-to-move-into-a-dorm was during the reunion).  My dad sent an email to my siblings and I that said "ok, reunion is $date. We're in cabin X. Remember, it's $Y/person."
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Dicey on October 14, 2015, 10:51:04 AM
My parents both retired this year and they want to pay for a family vacation.  It's weird.  They haven't paid for me to go on a vacation in 10 years.  But they really want to cover the expenses.  I felt really weird for a while, but I've decided to just go with it.  They budgeted for this vacation, it's their retirement celebration, and to be honest if I were paying, I probably wouldn't go.  We're going to Disneyland & Legoland.  I'm pretty sure they picked the location for maximum enjoyment of the two grandkids.  :)
This could be something they really want to do, or it could also be something all their friends are doing. It's kind of a thing with their generation, though usually centered around major anniversaries and involving cruises. If it's not going to derail their retirement, go with the flow and enjoy the trip as much as possible. Let them worry about the costs. They earned the money, they're free to spend it any way they want. Sure, you would get more enjoyment value for the equivalent amount of cash, but just try to let go of that thought for the duration of the trip. I realize that's the conclusion you've already drawn, this is just to reinforce your (correct) decision.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on October 14, 2015, 11:00:29 AM
Meh--different strokes for different folks.

My grandpa always paid the way for the family vacations--he owned the lake house, he insisted on paying, on going to the country club and putting it on his bill, etc. If he wasn't there (this one location) and another family was, he'd insist on giving the family some money for meals. He also wanted everyone to use his boat.

He always said the place was best investment he ever made--he may never have seen any positive returns on it (I'm sure he didn't), but he was right. I'm very good friends with my siblings and my cousins and my aunts and uncles because of it. And he could afford it, so what did it matter? He and my grandma got immeasurable joy out of seeing his family enjoying something he provided.

Now 2/5 of his kids have bought a place there since he sold his, and another is trying to (knock on wood the deal comes through). And I can already tell it will be the same deal for this next generation.

My wife's family, they could not afford it, so they all went in together and everyone paid their way evenly. It made for a lot more contention and strife, but I think that was unavoidable due to some other family dynamics. I wouldn't ever do that though.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LiveLean on October 15, 2015, 08:57:45 AM
We have a second home/rental property that's one of the smallest homes in a beach community made up mostly of summer rentals. Our four-bedroom, 1,300 square foot home sleeps 10 but many similar homes have been torn down and replaced by 10-bedroom monsters. (If you saw the short-lived HBO series Hung, we're basically Thomas Jane's house.)

I've often wondered who the heck pays the $10K to $20K per week that larger homes command in peak season. Reading this board, I'm starting to understand.

Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: soupcxan on October 15, 2015, 11:18:56 AM
my parents and sister are going to go to my brother's place for Thanksgiving. To go I would need to fly out on Wednesday and fly back at the latest on Sunday, when tickets would be insane, and I couldn't justify it.

Personally, I'd rather have some good experiences with family versus a big pile of money. People are not around forever. If you just don't like your family, then that's a different issue.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on October 15, 2015, 11:26:10 AM
We have a second home/rental property that's one of the smallest homes in a beach community made up mostly of summer rentals. Our four-bedroom, 1,300 square foot home sleeps 10 but many similar homes have been torn down and replaced by 10-bedroom monsters. (If you saw the short-lived HBO series Hung, we're basically Thomas Jane's house.)

I've often wondered who the heck pays the $10K to $20K per week that larger homes command in peak season. Reading this board, I'm starting to understand.

I haven't ever rented a house for a vacation, but it might make a lot of sense for a big family. You get a good location, the overall rate might be cheaper than getting a hotel, and you can cook more of your meals.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kaspian on October 15, 2015, 11:26:50 AM
Update on the above where my dad sold off his VTI position @ 97.88$.  I had an in person convo with dad yesterday. 
I asked about dad selling all their VTI shares as well as why he was had been selling shares then buying them back later in the day or a couple days later.  He told me that he was selling/buying to "adjust their position".  Then he told me that he needed to sell the VTI so that he'd have the cash to cover his options positions which have made up for the 20k dip in VTI.  He said VTI was going down and he expects it to keep going down, so it was smart to sell.  I told him he was just back in the same position he was in right before he lost the 30k earlier in the year, but he tells me its different now because he also has money invested in bonds.  At that point I was pretty much done.  Its also worth noting that my mom had no idea he had done any of it.  I've decided there is nothing I can do with dad and I will just remove myself from their financial life.  This is a bit of speculation, but I think he trades in options because he can't stomach waiting for the total market to go up and believes he can make money faster with options.  I honestly hope he lucks out and 20 years from now will be able to say he told me so.

This is why Bogle really doesn't like ETFs.  It's too easy and quick for people to just get in there and muck around spur-of-the-moment.  Maybe not on MMM, but the majority of the people who use ETFs instead of standard index mutual funds end up losing in the long run.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: UnleashHell on October 15, 2015, 11:52:47 AM
We have a second home/rental property that's one of the smallest homes in a beach community made up mostly of summer rentals. Our four-bedroom, 1,300 square foot home sleeps 10 but many similar homes have been torn down and replaced by 10-bedroom monsters. (If you saw the short-lived HBO series Hung, we're basically Thomas Jane's house.)

I've often wondered who the heck pays the $10K to $20K per week that larger homes command in peak season. Reading this board, I'm starting to understand.

I haven't ever rented a house for a vacation, but it might make a lot of sense for a big family. You get a good location, the overall rate might be cheaper than getting a hotel, and you can cook more of your meals.

A few year back we had visitors over from the UK. And their kids. They had 4 kids. We had 3.

Instead of all staying in our house and having 11 people being cramped for two weeks we rented a house on Cape cod.  Older one, set inland a bit but still walkable to the beach, local village. The upstairs was basically two dorms plus a bathroom either side. That was the boys and girls sorted.
Downstairs was living quarters and 3 double bedrooms. Outside was a huge grass area and a pool (unheated).
Pretty damn basic for the cape. My son brought a friend (as he was younger than the other kids) plus my eldest brought her boyfriend.
13 people on cape cod for a week in a house with a pool. Total cost was just over $2,000
Hotels/motels wouldn’t have worked for the same price (if they could even be found).

Everyone got on great (so many teenagers!!) and the holiday was a fantastic success. Absolutely worth doing.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: maco on October 15, 2015, 11:57:11 AM
We have a second home/rental property that's one of the smallest homes in a beach community made up mostly of summer rentals. Our four-bedroom, 1,300 square foot home sleeps 10 but many similar homes have been torn down and replaced by 10-bedroom monsters. (If you saw the short-lived HBO series Hung, we're basically Thomas Jane's house.)

I've often wondered who the heck pays the $10K to $20K per week that larger homes command in peak season. Reading this board, I'm starting to understand.

I haven't ever rented a house for a vacation, but it might make a lot of sense for a big family. You get a good location, the overall rate might be cheaper than getting a hotel, and you can cook more of your meals.
My extended family (dad's generation and mine) would jointly rent a 3-4 bedroom condo each year for summer vacation (really unlikely for that much money, though). Hotels don't usually have kitchens, whereas in a condo we can pop two casseroles in the oven and feed all 25 of us. Kids sleep on the floor.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AlanStache on October 15, 2015, 11:58:53 AM
We have a second home/rental property that's one of the smallest homes in a beach community made up mostly of summer rentals. Our four-bedroom, 1,300 square foot home sleeps 10 but many similar homes have been torn down and replaced by 10-bedroom monsters. (If you saw the short-lived HBO series Hung, we're basically Thomas Jane's house.)

I've often wondered who the heck pays the $10K to $20K per week that larger homes command in peak season. Reading this board, I'm starting to understand.

I haven't ever rented a house for a vacation, but it might make a lot of sense for a big family. You get a good location, the overall rate might be cheaper than getting a hotel, and you can cook more of your meals.

I cant say anything about 20k/wk but my extended family rented a house for a common vacation-get together; want to say it was like 3k for the week with 4 bedrooms located no where to special, 3k with a kitchen, living room etc is way better than a hotel.  This vacation solidified my opinion that one of my aunts will always see me as a helpless little ignorant kid never mind my age, occupation, other life accomplishments or that I put more than my 'fair share' towards the house.  Remembering her perspective of me has helped me deal with her.  More back on topic I think grandpa paid for most of the travel expenses for everyone (rental house was sort of near him), then the more financially established persons paid for a bit more of the food and expenses than my younger cousin in there mid/early 20's.  Seemed to workout.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooperman on October 15, 2015, 12:06:49 PM
Yup. Cape Cod rental for many years (presumably my grandparents paid). No idea the cost. They bought a place there when I was barely a teen instead of renting. Cousins from Europe came every year for a while (4 cousins + aunt + sometimes uncle). Max ever would have been 15 I think. Stayed there a month over the summer a few years. Good times.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cassie on October 16, 2015, 11:19:04 AM
Last year we went to Santa Barbara for a week with another couple. Hotels were crazy expensive & we rented a nice house with a fenced in yard that was fully furnished for $1800.00. Much cheaper & nicer. We also cooked most of our meals. Then some other friends would come down for a day or 2 & we had room to put them up.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Making Cookies on October 21, 2015, 09:33:49 AM
Have never vacationed with my family and sibling's family. Everyone always needs to "get away" alone... If you knew the family you'd understand. Goofy people. We hardly see each other anymore and that's okay. Am coming up on the "annual" sibling phone call in a couple of months. ;)

My inlaws have always vacationed like this. Its a hoot! As time has passed though many of the kids are at that phase in life where it is hard to get much time off from entry level jobs and they aren't making much dough. MiL/FiL are retired so they can't float anyone's expenses. DW and I can certainly cover our family's expenses but the other sibling inlaw's are financially treading water recently.

We vacationed alone this year with our kids. It was nice though. Lots of good memories for certain. Stayed in a very nice 1 bedroom near the beach. Did a mix of free museums, free beach, eating out, cooking in, and a couple of nights of touristy stuff (minigolf and go-carts). A+ time.

We missed the chaos of all the extended family kids collectively running in and out to the pools and the beach on a big family vacation. Am hoping that at some point we can do a group vacation again. The last time was a ~$3500 house that I would describe as luxury near the beach. We paid our portion but I think I recall our portion being returned to us b/c my FiL floated other family members' expenses so they could attend. Frankly I wish they would have kept our money.

Still cheaper than motels/hotels as already described. The group ate in alot. Wife and I generally did cheap stuff like beach, bikes, board games, etc during the day. Others did their usual shopping and tourist destination stuff.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on October 23, 2015, 09:40:16 AM
Finally!! An update on my aunt who has as much sense as a dead gopher.  My mom had taken a break from her in order to tend to her own business.  While over my late grandmother's house my aunt proceeded to berate my mother that the house was falling to pieces (my mom tried to talk my grandmother into basic repairs but my aunt immediately talked her out of them), that she was glad Grandma didn't live to see the house deteriorating etc.  Then she asked for a second time to move in with my mom,stepfather and sister. My mom gave her a blank stare. So far she hasn't applied for any housing services, nor any type of job , saved nothingand now has reluctantly begun paying car insurance so she can drive again though before she was happy to let my mom pay it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: rob in cal on October 24, 2015, 03:30:19 PM
    I mentioned our potential FIRE, or partially FIRE possibilities coming up over the next few years to my comfortably retired FIL. I got the sense that I was speaking a different language to him. He didn't even ask me for details of my projections or anything.  More as if I was talking about running for congress and hoping to become speaker of the house in 2018 or something.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on October 27, 2015, 09:54:10 AM
My aunt is also claiming she cannot find an apartment in the DC area for below $1500 a month.  Before it was $2000!  I gleefully informed my mother that she was lying...The affordable apartments are in the dodgy parts of town true but they are there.  And out of $750 a month she allegedly receives from her retirement she now pays for expensive cable, car insurance plus her monthly storage fee.  I don't know how much she has left every month but it is no wonder she is broke.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: maco on October 27, 2015, 10:10:13 AM
My aunt is also claiming she cannot find an apartment in the DC area for below $1500 a month.  Before it was $2000!  I gleefully informed my mother that she was lying...The affordable apartments are in the dodgy parts of town true but they are there.  And out of $750 a month she allegedly receives from her retirement she now pays for expensive cable, car insurance plus her monthly storage fee.  I don't know how much she has left every month but it is no wonder she is broke.
The not-dodgy-area way is to rent a basement a 10 minute walk from Wheaton station.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AlanStache on October 27, 2015, 11:02:31 AM
My aunt is also claiming she cannot find an apartment in the DC area for below $1500 a month.  Before it was $2000!  I gleefully informed my mother that she was lying...The affordable apartments are in the dodgy parts of town true but they are there.  And out of $750 a month she allegedly receives from her retirement she now pays for expensive cable, car insurance plus her monthly storage fee.  I don't know how much she has left every month but it is no wonder she is broke.

She is retired and trying to live in DC, I hope there is a compelling reason like family? 
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: onehair on October 27, 2015, 01:27:20 PM
Living here on a limited budget can be done.  It isn't easy but it can be done.  I managed making $22000 with two small children at the time.  The expensive parts of town are very expensive but you have to live on what you have not what you wish you had.    My aunt wants to have it all.  She wants to use her money for her neverending wants and for my mom to pay the major bills.  If she found a part time job you can get work online now if she doesn't trust her legs anymore she could afford to stay in the house and if she practiced a little frugality as well.  Why should we pay for her poor choices?  If she was a nicer person we would take her in and so would my mother but she constantly argues, complains, begs for rides and seems allergic to housework and yardwork.  There are certain programs she qualifies for and won't apply for them.    That car would be gone yesterday if I were her.  She has access to several great bus lines and the subway.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: jollygreen23 on October 27, 2015, 02:42:57 PM
My cousin (age 20) just got married a couple of weeks ago. My grandparents are building/gifting them a small home on their property as a wedding gift. (Whatever. It's their money. I think it robs them of growing experience as a couple, but they can do what they want.) Anyway, the new bride just posted on facebook that she bought a "gently used" 2015 Kia for $14,000.

My husband used to own a business that worked closely with car lots. His experience with Kias hasn't been great. Brand new cars will need something repaired/replaced within 6 months. I'm assuming that's what happened to this "gently used" 2015 car. It just breaks my heart that they took out a $14k loan for a money-suck.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on October 27, 2015, 02:57:25 PM
My cousin (age 20) just got married a couple of weeks ago. My grandparents are building/gifting them a small home on their property as a wedding gift. (Whatever. It's their money. I think it robs them of growing experience as a couple, but they can do what they want.) Anyway, the new bride just posted on facebook that she bought a "gently used" 2015 Kia for $14,000.

My husband used to own a business that worked closely with car lots. His experience with Kias hasn't been great. Brand new cars will need something repaired/replaced within 6 months. I'm assuming that's what happened to this "gently used" 2015 car. It just breaks my heart that they took out a $14k loan for a money-suck.

Kia's are not as bad as they used to be; I wouldn't even call them bad anymore. Aside from that, a 2015 will still have a LOT of warranty left.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: shelivesthedream on October 27, 2015, 03:17:41 PM
you have to live on what you have not what you wish you had.

Great quote.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: LeRainDrop on October 27, 2015, 06:02:28 PM
My aunt is also claiming she cannot find an apartment in the DC area for below $1500 a month.  Before it was $2000!  I gleefully informed my mother that she was lying...The affordable apartments are in the dodgy parts of town true but they are there.  And out of $750 a month she allegedly receives from her retirement she now pays for expensive cable, car insurance plus her monthly storage fee.  I don't know how much she has left every month but it is no wonder she is broke.

If those are her priorities, perhaps she will live in her car or in her storage space?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Capsu78 on October 27, 2015, 07:03:00 PM
My cousin (age 20) just got married a couple of weeks ago. My grandparents are building/gifting them a small home on their property as a wedding gift. (Whatever. It's their money. I think it robs them of growing experience as a couple, but they can do what they want.) Anyway, the new bride just posted on facebook that she bought a "gently used" 2015 Kia for $14,000.

My husband used to own a business that worked closely with car lots. His experience with Kias hasn't been great. Brand new cars will need something repaired/replaced within 6 months. I'm assuming that's what happened to this "gently used" 2015 car. It just breaks my heart that they took out a $14k loan for a money-suck.

Kia's are not as bad as they used to be; I wouldn't even call them bad anymore. Aside from that, a 2015 will still have a LOT of warranty left.

I bought my college daughter a Kia and actually had a very good response to warranty issues- they replaced the entire exhaust system at 55,000 miles- no charge.  However, it "up and died" in the 90,000 mile range so I don't expect Toyota or Honda longevity to 200K.  Al in all a "square and fair" deal for a $13,000 car that served its purpose.   
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Silverwood on October 27, 2015, 08:41:16 PM
Considering that I paid $15000  for my honda civic that was a year old when I bought it and is still going at 180 000 km, that's not a good deal.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on October 27, 2015, 08:44:40 PM
Considering that I paid $15000  for my honda civic that was a year old when I bought it and is still going at 180 000 km, that's not a good deal.

IMO you got the better deal, but logically that doesn't mean that the other person made a bad deal. Now if he were offered both, then yes.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Silverwood on October 27, 2015, 10:54:23 PM
Yeah , that's true. You have to do the best that you can with what you're given.  I was just thinking it's one of those situations where a little extra money and you have a better quality product.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on October 28, 2015, 07:28:53 AM
^ Good point.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mtn on October 28, 2015, 08:14:33 AM
Considering that I paid $15000  for my honda civic that was a year old when I bought it and is still going at 180 000 km, that's not a good deal.

IMO you got the better deal, but logically that doesn't mean that the other person made a bad deal. Now if he were offered both, then yes.

On top of that, that car that Silverwood bought was probably... what, a 2004 or so? The quality has vastly improved since then. Seriously. I'd be shocked if a new one died at 90K with regular oil changes.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Stashaholic on October 28, 2015, 02:11:55 PM
MIL and FIL are some of the nicest people i know but unfortunately extremely bad with money. In just a couple of years...

- Borrowed $5k from a payday loan two years ago (didn't know you can go that high!) with 10% monthly interest and full amount must be paid or just the minimum of $500/mo interest until you can pay in full. All to finance entertain visiting family from another country for a couple of weeks! Luckily she received a small inheritance recently, enough to pay the loan back two years later, but after already paying in $12k in interest!

- A year ago, borrowed some more money, about $3k, from a relative because of a couple more relatives coming over for another two weeks. All this while still owing $5k on payday loans and paying $500/mo on it! Luckily inheritance covered it too.

- Borrowed $5k from 401k to entertain guests and help daughter in a wedding they already paid for. Still paying for it.

- Bought a $1000 water filter a few years ago (i think from a friend in a MLM) and after just a few months of use, decided that bottled water was better and no longer uses it.

- Went to a trip early this year, two months ago and going to another trip before the year ends using money I'm sure she doesn't have. Or maybe she figured it can be paid off with the newly freed cash flow from paying off the payday loan.

... and many more but I have to end my post at some point.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kaspian on October 28, 2015, 02:32:22 PM
MIL and FIL are some of the nicest people i know but unfortunately extremely bad with money. In just a couple of years...

- Borrowed $5k... to finance entertain visiting family ...

- borrowed... about $3k because of a couple more relatives coming over

- Borrowed $5k... to entertain guests


Holy smokes--I'm going to visit your in-laws!!  Sounds like they put on one hell of a good party,
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Silverwood on October 28, 2015, 08:54:59 PM
Considering that I paid $15000  for my honda civic that was a year old when I bought it and is still going at 180 000 km, that's not a good deal.

IMO you got the better deal, but logically that doesn't mean that the other person made a bad deal. Now if he were offered both, then yes.

On top of that, that car that Silverwood bought was probably... what, a 2004 or so? The quality has vastly improved since then. Seriously. I'd be shocked if a new one died at 90K with regular oil changes.


Close. 2003 :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Rural on October 29, 2015, 05:34:55 PM
My cousin (age 20) just got married a couple of weeks ago. My grandparents are building/gifting them a small home on their property as a wedding gift. (Whatever. It's their money. I think it robs them of growing experience as a couple, but they can do what they want.) Anyway, the new bride just posted on facebook that she bought a "gently used" 2015 Kia for $14,000.

My husband used to own a business that worked closely with car lots. His experience with Kias hasn't been great. Brand new cars will need something repaired/replaced within 6 months. I'm assuming that's what happened to this "gently used" 2015 car. It just breaks my heart that they took out a $14k loan for a money-suck.

Kia's are not as bad as they used to be; I wouldn't even call them bad anymore. Aside from that, a 2015 will still have a LOT of warranty left.

I bought my college daughter a Kia and actually had a very good response to warranty issues- they replaced the entire exhaust system at 55,000 miles- no charge.  However, it "up and died" in the 90,000 mile range so I don't expect Toyota or Honda longevity to 200K.  Al in all a "square and fair" deal for a $13,000 car that served its purpose.


 I don't know. I might've agreed with you before I bought a 2003 Kia Rio with nearly a hundred thousand miles on it (for $1200, the trade-in value, because I bought it from my parents) and put another 140 thousand miles on it. Thinking of retiring it now,  but I've been really pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: franklin w. dixon on November 11, 2015, 07:07:18 PM
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.
Even at a wealthy public school, there's still a chance your child might see a black person. For America's well-to-do, that's simply too great a risk.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: infogoon on November 12, 2015, 06:46:31 AM
Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.
Even at a wealthy public school, there's still a chance your child might see a black person. For America's well-to-do, that's simply too great a risk.
[/quote]

Some friends of ours bought a house in a high-tax suburb because they don't want to live in the city with us plebes. Their kids go to a private school here in the city.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooperman on November 12, 2015, 07:03:28 AM
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.
Even at a wealthy public school, there's still a chance your child might see a black person. For America's well-to-do, that's simply too great a risk.

Sort story time. I went to a private school until 8th grade. Diversity was 2 asian kids in a class of 35 total. School is in a totally white neighborhood, and I live in a different, totally white neighborhood. I was in 5th grade when I first met a black person. Seriously. I'd seen some before, but it was the first time I had any interaction. Class went on a field trip to the Bronx Botanical Garden (an awesome place). One of the private black schools from Harlem I think was also there. One of the black kids said to one of my classmates: "what are you lookin' at? You ain't never seen a black person before?" Something to that effect anyways. I remember it because it made me realize how cocooned I was for much of my early life.

On the other hand, the education in the private school was certainly better than at even really good public schools. When I transferred out to public later, I was significantly ahead in a lot of areas and very well rounded overall. Plus, I got lots of opportunities I never would have had in public school until much later on if ever (like throwing javelin).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: maco on November 12, 2015, 08:53:27 AM
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.
Even at a wealthy public school, there's still a chance your child might see a black person. For America's well-to-do, that's simply too great a risk.

Sort story time. I went to a private school until 8th grade. Diversity was 2 asian kids in a class of 35 total. School is in a totally white neighborhood, and I live in a different, totally white neighborhood. I was in 5th grade when I first met a black person. Seriously. I'd seen some before, but it was the first time I had any interaction. Class went on a field trip to the Bronx Botanical Garden (an awesome place). One of the private black schools from Harlem I think was also there. One of the black kids said to one of my classmates: "what are you lookin' at? You ain't never seen a black person before?" Something to that effect anyways. I remember it because it made me realize how cocooned I was for much of my early life.

On the other hand, the education in the private school was certainly better than at even really good public schools. When I transferred out to public later, I was significantly ahead in a lot of areas and very well rounded overall. Plus, I got lots of opportunities I never would have had in public school until much later on if ever (like throwing javelin).
When I went from private K-8 to public 9-12, I was behind in math, or at least I had passed a class called "algebra" that bore little resemblance to the algebra curriculum. The 8th grade geometry, at least, seemed to be on-par, but I needed tutors in algebra 2 and calculus because private school "algebra" didn't go much beyond "If you add 3 on the left, you do that on the right too."
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: TomTX on November 16, 2015, 05:23:34 AM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.

How do you work for the government and not file your taxes?!?! For SEVEN YEARS!?!? So dumb.

Of course the reason they were able to get away with it is because they were getting a refund. That was very kind of them to lend the Treasury $20k though.

Sounds like they most likely also GAVE the Treasury ~$25k in addition to the loan. The IRS only gives refunds for the prior 3 years. After that, you're SOL.

A friend of mine did the same thing. I punched everything into TurboTax for her for the current year and prior 2 years at the beginning of April when I discovered this in conversation about filing taxes (very simple returns.) Every one of them was money back, but she couldn't be bothered to search for the information for the final year we could get a refund. I don't know if she had ever filed her taxes....
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: JordanOfGilead on November 16, 2015, 01:23:38 PM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."


Ask her for the most anti-Mustachian item that you secretly desire in your heart of hearts ... out with it ... you know you want it ...

Last Christmas my parents gave me a Happy Hacker Pro (tm) keyboard:  http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Professional2-Black/dp/B000EXZ0VC/
Gas station gift cards.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on November 16, 2015, 02:27:06 PM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."


Ask her for the most anti-Mustachian item that you secretly desire in your heart of hearts ... out with it ... you know you want it ...

Last Christmas my parents gave me a Happy Hacker Pro (tm) keyboard:  http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Professional2-Black/dp/B000EXZ0VC/
Gas station gift cards.

I agree that if someone wants to give you a gift, I might mention something that I would like but might not get on my own. For instance, I would like some good knives along with a magnetic strip to hold them to the wall so that I can have them isolated from other cutlery. Or a good vacuum cleaner, or a coffee table would also be nice.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: frugalparagon on November 16, 2015, 05:38:26 PM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."


Ask her for the most anti-Mustachian item that you secretly desire in your heart of hearts ... out with it ... you know you want it ...

Last Christmas my parents gave me a Happy Hacker Pro (tm) keyboard:  http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Professional2-Black/dp/B000EXZ0VC/
Gas station gift cards.

I agree that if someone wants to give you a gift, I might mention something that I would like but might not get on my own. For instance, I would like some good knives along with a magnetic strip to hold them to the wall so that I can have them isolated from other cutlery. Or a good vacuum cleaner, or a coffee table would also be nice.

Am I the only one with a decent-sized mental list of these things? I want dishwasher-safe steak knives, a new mini food processor (mine is kind of broken and requires some finessing to work these days), a kitchen food scale, a couple of nice dish towels, etc.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: maco on November 16, 2015, 07:41:36 PM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."


Ask her for the most anti-Mustachian item that you secretly desire in your heart of hearts ... out with it ... you know you want it ...

Last Christmas my parents gave me a Happy Hacker Pro (tm) keyboard:  http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Professional2-Black/dp/B000EXZ0VC/
Gas station gift cards.

I agree that if someone wants to give you a gift, I might mention something that I would like but might not get on my own. For instance, I would like some good knives along with a magnetic strip to hold them to the wall so that I can have them isolated from other cutlery. Or a good vacuum cleaner, or a coffee table would also be nice.

Am I the only one with a decent-sized mental list of these things? I want dishwasher-safe steak knives, a new mini food processor (mine is kind of broken and requires some finessing to work these days), a kitchen food scale, a couple of nice dish towels, etc.
My Christmas list has faucets and towel bars in the same finish as the lighting and cabinet hardware for the bathroom, because the previous owners used 3 different metal finishes. Also, weaving accessories. (Yes, I'm a weaver)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MsChewieBear on November 16, 2015, 07:41:51 PM
I could fill a whole forum with stories about my in-laws (my FIL and his second wife).

* FIL took a 401(k) loan to put a wraparound deck on their house. I won't lie; the deck is beautiful. The problem is that they hardly use it, and they never invite anyone over. There was really no point in paying for such an extravagant entertainment area when they don't entertain anyone.

* They go out for lunch and dinner almost every day. SW would never set foot in a place like Olive Garden; it's got to be a high-class place. The dinner bills wouldn't be so bad, except she'll order an expensive entree, an appetizer, five glasses of wine at $8 each, an after-dinner cappuccino, and several cups of espresso. The one time my FIL put his foot down and said he didn't want to stay for another cup of cappuccino, she threw an absolute tantrum.

* SW refuses to buy anything that isn't fancy/designer, whether it's cosmetics, clothing, furniture, or decorative items. She once had me order a $55 bottle of shampoo for her on Amazon because it's not available in the U.S. (it probably has some banned chemical in it).

* SW loves to spend money on all kinds of natural treatments/remedies: colonics, crystals, essential oils/diffusers, etc.

* SW loves to talk about all the places they've been and things they've bought (e.g. a $250 bottle of whiskey). They have never stayed at a La Quinta Inn or even a Hyatt; it's always the Four Seasons, the Hay Adams, etc.

All of the above wouldn't be so bad if they were truly wealthy and things were going well, but here's the kicker. My FIL runs a failing business that is in danger of closing within a year or two. The property taxes on the building/land haven't been paid since 2012. My husband used to work for his father, and there were many times he had to hold his paycheck for several days because there wasn't enough to cover it. FIL and SW are losing customers left and right because they couldn't afford to keep all of their employees; they laid off all but one full-time person, so their production capacity is greatly reduced.

The worst part is that my FIL and his wife have been living high on the hog for years, but when my husband asked him for a raise to a measly $8 per hour, he said no. My husband had to quit the job, and his dad was so mad that they were estranged for months.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mustachepungoeshere on November 16, 2015, 08:01:04 PM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."


Ask her for the most anti-Mustachian item that you secretly desire in your heart of hearts ... out with it ... you know you want it ...

Last Christmas my parents gave me a Happy Hacker Pro (tm) keyboard:  http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Professional2-Black/dp/B000EXZ0VC/
Gas station gift cards.

I agree that if someone wants to give you a gift, I might mention something that I would like but might not get on my own. For instance, I would like some good knives along with a magnetic strip to hold them to the wall so that I can have them isolated from other cutlery. Or a good vacuum cleaner, or a coffee table would also be nice.

Am I the only one with a decent-sized mental list of these things? I want dishwasher-safe steak knives, a new mini food processor (mine is kind of broken and requires some finessing to work these days), a kitchen food scale, a couple of nice dish towels, etc.
My Christmas list has faucets and towel bars in the same finish as the lighting and cabinet hardware for the bathroom, because the previous owners used 3 different metal finishes. Also, weaving accessories. (Yes, I'm a weaver)

I asked for a mat for the balcony door. Not just the $5 coir one, but the fancy $15 jute one. My husband rolled his eyes at me and told me to just buy it.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Vertical Mode on November 16, 2015, 11:58:49 PM
I could fill a whole forum with stories about my in-laws (my FIL and his second wife).

* FIL took a 401(k) loan to put a wraparound deck on their house. I won't lie; the deck is beautiful. The problem is that they hardly use it, and they never invite anyone over. There was really no point in paying for such an extravagant entertainment area when they don't entertain anyone.

* They go out for lunch and dinner almost every day. SW would never set foot in a place like Olive Garden; it's got to be a high-class place. The dinner bills wouldn't be so bad, except she'll order an expensive entree, an appetizer, five glasses of wine at $8 each, an after-dinner cappuccino, and several cups of espresso. The one time my FIL put his foot down and said he didn't want to stay for another cup of cappuccino, she threw an absolute tantrum.

* SW refuses to buy anything that isn't fancy/designer, whether it's cosmetics, clothing, furniture, or decorative items. She once had me order a $55 bottle of shampoo for her on Amazon because it's not available in the U.S. (it probably has some banned chemical in it).

* SW loves to spend money on all kinds of natural treatments/remedies: colonics, crystals, essential oils/diffusers, etc.

* SW loves to talk about all the places they've been and things they've bought (e.g. a $250 bottle of whiskey). They have never stayed at a La Quinta Inn or even a Hyatt; it's always the Four Seasons, the Hay Adams, etc.

All of the above wouldn't be so bad if they were truly wealthy and things were going well, but here's the kicker. My FIL runs a failing business that is in danger of closing within a year or two. The property taxes on the building/land haven't been paid since 2012. My husband used to work for his father, and there were many times he had to hold his paycheck for several days because there wasn't enough to cover it. FIL and SW are losing customers left and right because they couldn't afford to keep all of their employees; they laid off all but one full-time person, so their production capacity is greatly reduced.

The worst part is that my FIL and his wife have been living high on the hog for years, but when my husband asked him for a raise to a measly $8 per hour, he said no. My husband had to quit the job, and his dad was so mad that they were estranged for months.

My head nearly exploded while reading this.

Holy. Shit. The cognitive dissonance!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MgoSam on November 17, 2015, 01:24:20 AM
I could fill a whole forum with stories about my in-laws (my FIL and his second wife).

* FIL took a 401(k) loan to put a wraparound deck on their house. I won't lie; the deck is beautiful. The problem is that they hardly use it, and they never invite anyone over. There was really no point in paying for such an extravagant entertainment area when they don't entertain anyone.

* They go out for lunch and dinner almost every day. SW would never set foot in a place like Olive Garden; it's got to be a high-class place. The dinner bills wouldn't be so bad, except she'll order an expensive entree, an appetizer, five glasses of wine at $8 each, an after-dinner cappuccino, and several cups of espresso. The one time my FIL put his foot down and said he didn't want to stay for another cup of cappuccino, she threw an absolute tantrum.

* SW refuses to buy anything that isn't fancy/designer, whether it's cosmetics, clothing, furniture, or decorative items. She once had me order a $55 bottle of shampoo for her on Amazon because it's not available in the U.S. (it probably has some banned chemical in it).

* SW loves to spend money on all kinds of natural treatments/remedies: colonics, crystals, essential oils/diffusers, etc.

* SW loves to talk about all the places they've been and things they've bought (e.g. a $250 bottle of whiskey). They have never stayed at a La Quinta Inn or even a Hyatt; it's always the Four Seasons, the Hay Adams, etc.

All of the above wouldn't be so bad if they were truly wealthy and things were going well, but here's the kicker. My FIL runs a failing business that is in danger of closing within a year or two. The property taxes on the building/land haven't been paid since 2012. My husband used to work for his father, and there were many times he had to hold his paycheck for several days because there wasn't enough to cover it. FIL and SW are losing customers left and right because they couldn't afford to keep all of their employees; they laid off all but one full-time person, so their production capacity is greatly reduced.

The worst part is that my FIL and his wife have been living high on the hog for years, but when my husband asked him for a raise to a measly $8 per hour, he said no. My husband had to quit the job, and his dad was so mad that they were estranged for months.

My head nearly exploded while reading this.

Holy. Shit. The cognitive dissonance!

Were they making good money in the past? I can imagine it is hard for some to step down expenses when they aren't making nearly as much. A customer of mine who I have become good friends with has told me that he's realizing how much he's been spending now that he isn't earning nearly as much as he did last year, in the past we've talked about our spending, he keeps telling me that I'm too cheap and that I need to live more.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: wenchsenior on November 17, 2015, 07:46:25 AM
I could fill a whole forum with stories about my in-laws (my FIL and his second wife).

* FIL took a 401(k) loan to put a wraparound deck on their house. I won't lie; the deck is beautiful. The problem is that they hardly use it, and they never invite anyone over. There was really no point in paying for such an extravagant entertainment area when they don't entertain anyone.

* They go out for lunch and dinner almost every day. SW would never set foot in a place like Olive Garden; it's got to be a high-class place. The dinner bills wouldn't be so bad, except she'll order an expensive entree, an appetizer, five glasses of wine at $8 each, an after-dinner cappuccino, and several cups of espresso. The one time my FIL put his foot down and said he didn't want to stay for another cup of cappuccino, she threw an absolute tantrum.

* SW refuses to buy anything that isn't fancy/designer, whether it's cosmetics, clothing, furniture, or decorative items. She once had me order a $55 bottle of shampoo for her on Amazon because it's not available in the U.S. (it probably has some banned chemical in it).

* SW loves to spend money on all kinds of natural treatments/remedies: colonics, crystals, essential oils/diffusers, etc.

* SW loves to talk about all the places they've been and things they've bought (e.g. a $250 bottle of whiskey). They have never stayed at a La Quinta Inn or even a Hyatt; it's always the Four Seasons, the Hay Adams, etc.

All of the above wouldn't be so bad if they were truly wealthy and things were going well, but here's the kicker. My FIL runs a failing business that is in danger of closing within a year or two. The property taxes on the building/land haven't been paid since 2012. My husband used to work for his father, and there were many times he had to hold his paycheck for several days because there wasn't enough to cover it. FIL and SW are losing customers left and right because they couldn't afford to keep all of their employees; they laid off all but one full-time person, so their production capacity is greatly reduced.

The worst part is that my FIL and his wife have been living high on the hog for years, but when my husband asked him for a raise to a measly $8 per hour, he said no. My husband had to quit the job, and his dad was so mad that they were estranged for months.

:boggles in horror:
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: JordanOfGilead on November 17, 2015, 09:53:51 AM
"He's so stingy. When they got married, he wouldn't even let her buy magazines!"

OMG I HATE the "let" language about money. It absolutely undermines everything about shared budgets and responsibilities. And also it implies that it's one person's money tocontrol. Which I guess might be the case in some (rare) circumstances, but generally speaking, that is such bs.

Maybe I've got a more visceral reaction to this language than most: my grandmother was a stay-at-home mom (like most women of her generation...) and she genuinely had to justify to my grandfather why she wanted a new lipstick (whereas his woodworking tools for hobby use were obviously not for anyone else to question). I was really young when I swore that I would never be in a situation where I had to ask for permission for minor expenses. (And I've always earned at least 50% more than anyone I dated, so... guess that stuck with me.)
I hate the word "let" in reference to spouses in general. My wife likes to change her hair color every few weeks and has a Mohawk. People tell me they can't believe I "let" her do that. Excuse me? She is her own person. She can do whatever makes her happy with or without my permission.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: JordanOfGilead on November 17, 2015, 10:01:19 AM
I totally had a "this conversation belongs in the Antimustachian Wall of Shame" moment over the weekend.

We traveled out-of-state to see family this weekend. My SIL and BIL are having twin babies soon, which is very exciting. They are a little older than my wife and I, and have established excellent careers. I don't know how much exactly they make, but BIL got a large raise and promotion in the engineering/science field. My guess is they make well over six figures. Probably 140-160K.

It wasn't always this good. Just a couple of years ago, BIL was trying to return to the workforce after graduating from Law School. He went all the way through (on a good scholarship), only to find out that he wasn't interested in law. It was painful to watch at the time as he grew more depressed, trying to find any job. He would have even been happy to take his pre-law school job. It took him about a year to find his current employment. Right after this, he stated that they had nearly gone broke trying to live off of SIL's income (I'm guessing she makes 45-55K/year + bonus).

You would think that this experience would traumatize them into being frugal, rapidly paying off student loans and stashing the money away? Nope. Here is a list of things they have done in the past 2 1/2 years since he was hired:
- Stated that student loans will take 30 years to pay off
- Purchased a house with a small down payment -  they borrowed $5,000 from my wife's parents because they couldn't afford the down payment, and then took a year to pay it back.
- Regularly attend major league sporting events
- Leased a Ford Expedition

Which brings me to this weekend, when they showed up to the get-together with a 2012, nice Ford-150. It only cost $25,000 (what a deal!). "I could never go back to driving a car," he said. During the conversation about his new truck, BIL revealed to me the real reason for this purchase: he needs it so he can buy toys - and first on that list is a boat. I was speechless ... just listened and tried to remember to smile...

No, I wouldn't think that at all. Most likely, in their mind, they have gone through a hardship and now deserve all these things that their new life situation "allows" them to have. While I have no data to support this, I'm fairly certain this mindset is pretty commonplace. Look at how many doctors go out and buy a bunch of expensive stuff once they start making "real doctor money" when they still have boatloads of student loans. Same thing can be said for lawyers. Same thing can be said for fresh college graduates that managed to land a well paying fresh out of college job who go out and buy a flashy and/or gas guzzling expensive new car instead of
a) not buying a car at all and finding a place to live in biking range, with Uber or taxi supplements as required 
b) buying a non flashy fuel efficient used car 
c) or at the very least, if they really want a new car, at least get a fuel efficient one

Not that I have any data to back this up. If you want to challenge me on that then go ahead.

I think everyone can agree though that consumerism is pretty engrained in most people's minds these days.
+1
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Cookie78 on November 17, 2015, 11:30:59 AM
"He's so stingy. When they got married, he wouldn't even let her buy magazines!"

OMG I HATE the "let" language about money. It absolutely undermines everything about shared budgets and responsibilities. And also it implies that it's one person's money tocontrol. Which I guess might be the case in some (rare) circumstances, but generally speaking, that is such bs.

Maybe I've got a more visceral reaction to this language than most: my grandmother was a stay-at-home mom (like most women of her generation...) and she genuinely had to justify to my grandfather why she wanted a new lipstick (whereas his woodworking tools for hobby use were obviously not for anyone else to question). I was really young when I swore that I would never be in a situation where I had to ask for permission for minor expenses. (And I've always earned at least 50% more than anyone I dated, so... guess that stuck with me.)
I hate the word "let" in reference to spouses in general. My wife likes to change her hair color every few weeks and has a Mohawk. People tell me they can't believe I "let" her do that. Excuse me? She is her own person. She can do whatever makes her happy with or without my permission.

Oh wow! THIS so much! I've been hearing a lot of that type of language lately and it drives me crazy. "My hubby won't let me do a road trip across southwest US unless I find a friend to go with me." "My adult children won't let me travel to Europe." "My mother won't let me stay at home for Christmas (from a 30+ year old)." I can't even imagine feeling so under the control of other people that you can't live your own life the way you want to.

It drives me crazy!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Kitsune on November 17, 2015, 12:56:14 PM
"He's so stingy. When they got married, he wouldn't even let her buy magazines!"

OMG I HATE the "let" language about money. It absolutely undermines everything about shared budgets and responsibilities. And also it implies that it's one person's money tocontrol. Which I guess might be the case in some (rare) circumstances, but generally speaking, that is such bs.

Maybe I've got a more visceral reaction to this language than most: my grandmother was a stay-at-home mom (like most women of her generation...) and she genuinely had to justify to my grandfather why she wanted a new lipstick (whereas his woodworking tools for hobby use were obviously not for anyone else to question). I was really young when I swore that I would never be in a situation where I had to ask for permission for minor expenses. (And I've always earned at least 50% more than anyone I dated, so... guess that stuck with me.)
I hate the word "let" in reference to spouses in general. My wife likes to change her hair color every few weeks and has a Mohawk. People tell me they can't believe I "let" her do that. Excuse me? She is her own person. She can do whatever makes her happy with or without my permission.

OMG. This. I occasionally ask my husband's opinion about something ("does this sweater look good?", or "do you care if I shave my legs in winter?" - to answers of "your other one looks better" and "I have tits in my face, why would I care", respectively) but I can guarantee that if he said anything along the lines of "don't cut your hair, I don't want you to" my FIRST phone call would be to a hairdresser. Or to whichever friend I know with a buzzcut and the means to maintain it.

Similarly, when my husband said he might cut his hair, the extent of my stated opinion was "It's your hair and your head, do what you want. Just don't get a haircut that requires regular barber shop trips without telling me first because that affects the budget." Because I DO prefer it long, but that's not the POINT. And in the end, he brought me a pair of scissors and asked me to cut off about 8 inches of hair... so now he's got shoulder-length hair that's less baby-grab-able, which was his concern, needs less conditionner, AND he looks smoking hot. Win. :)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: AerynLee on November 17, 2015, 01:21:05 PM
"He's so stingy. When they got married, he wouldn't even let her buy magazines!"

OMG I HATE the "let" language about money. It absolutely undermines everything about shared budgets and responsibilities. And also it implies that it's one person's money tocontrol. Which I guess might be the case in some (rare) circumstances, but generally speaking, that is such bs.

Maybe I've got a more visceral reaction to this language than most: my grandmother was a stay-at-home mom (like most women of her generation...) and she genuinely had to justify to my grandfather why she wanted a new lipstick (whereas his woodworking tools for hobby use were obviously not for anyone else to question). I was really young when I swore that I would never be in a situation where I had to ask for permission for minor expenses. (And I've always earned at least 50% more than anyone I dated, so... guess that stuck with me.)
I hate the word "let" in reference to spouses in general. My wife likes to change her hair color every few weeks and has a Mohawk. People tell me they can't believe I "let" her do that. Excuse me? She is her own person. She can do whatever makes her happy with or without my permission.

OMG. This. I occasionally ask my husband's opinion about something ("does this sweater look good?", or "do you care if I shave my legs in winter?" - to answers of "your other one looks better" and "I have tits in my face, why would I care", respectively) but I can guarantee that if he said anything along the lines of "don't cut your hair, I don't want you to" my FIRST phone call would be to a hairdresser. Or to whichever friend I know with a buzzcut and the means to maintain it.

Lol, I'm not the only one! My supervisor says her husband freaks out every time she cuts her hair ("Women should have long hair!")...I can't even tell the difference when she does. Granted, she's in the older generation, her daughter is a couple years older than me, but I'd be running for a buzz cut if my DH tried to dictate how long my hair should be.
I chopped about eight inches off earlier this year, ended up chin to shoulder length area and I couldn't even get my DH to tell me which way he preferred, he really just doesn't care. Interestingly I still have the second longest hair out of seven women in my office.

DH will use the excuse "The wife won't let me" if he doesn't want to do something which kind of irks me but I understand he's trying to not hurt other's feelings
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Sibley on November 17, 2015, 01:23:13 PM
"He's so stingy. When they got married, he wouldn't even let her buy magazines!"

OMG I HATE the "let" language about money. It absolutely undermines everything about shared budgets and responsibilities. And also it implies that it's one person's money tocontrol. Which I guess might be the case in some (rare) circumstances, but generally speaking, that is such bs.

Maybe I've got a more visceral reaction to this language than most: my grandmother was a stay-at-home mom (like most women of her generation...) and she genuinely had to justify to my grandfather why she wanted a new lipstick (whereas his woodworking tools for hobby use were obviously not for anyone else to question). I was really young when I swore that I would never be in a situation where I had to ask for permission for minor expenses. (And I've always earned at least 50% more than anyone I dated, so... guess that stuck with me.)
I hate the word "let" in reference to spouses in general. My wife likes to change her hair color every few weeks and has a Mohawk. People tell me they can't believe I "let" her do that. Excuse me? She is her own person. She can do whatever makes her happy with or without my permission.

OMG. This. I occasionally ask my husband's opinion about something ("does this sweater look good?", or "do you care if I shave my legs in winter?" - to answers of "your other one looks better" and "I have tits in my face, why would I care", respectively) but I can guarantee that if he said anything along the lines of "don't cut your hair, I don't want you to" my FIRST phone call would be to a hairdresser. Or to whichever friend I know with a buzzcut and the means to maintain it.

Lol, I'm not the only one! My supervisor says her husband freaks out every time she cuts her hair ("Women should have long hair!")...I can't even tell the difference when she does. Granted, she's in the older generation, her daughter is a couple years older than me, but I'd be running for a buzz cut if my DH tried to dictate how long my hair should be.
I chopped about eight inches off earlier this year, ended up chin to shoulder length area and I couldn't even get my DH to tell me which way he preferred, he really just doesn't care. Interestingly I still have the second longest hair out of seven women in my office.

DH will use the excuse "The wife won't let me" if he doesn't want to do something which kind of irks me but I understand he's trying to not hurt other's feelings

Ex BF had a stated, and vocal, preference for women with long hair. I have short hair. Did I mention he's the ex BF?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: MsChewieBear on November 17, 2015, 02:49:10 PM

Were they making good money in the past? I can imagine it is hard for some to step down expenses when they aren't making nearly as much. A customer of mine who I have become good friends with has told me that he's realizing how much he's been spending now that he isn't earning nearly as much as he did last year, in the past we've talked about our spending, he keeps telling me that I'm too cheap and that I need to live more.

Yeah, the company was really successful when my husband's grandfather was alive. He was the true salesman. My FIL refuses to speak to customers and won't hire a service manager or someone to handle issues. He has two part-time secretaries (so he doesn't have to give anybody benefits), but he has them work 11 to 4, so no one answers the phone from 7 a.m. until the secretaries get in at 11:00.

I totally get that it's hard to go from a life of luxury to living a bit more frugally, but SW is totally ridiculous and my FIL doesn't have the courage to say anything about it. At this point, I think it's probably an emotionally abusive relationship, except she's the abuser (when they met, he was almost 50, and she was only in her mid-20s; she's just 10 years older than my husband).
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Hunny156 on November 18, 2015, 12:51:20 PM
The in-laws are moving from NY to TX for retirement.  Financially inept their entire lives, I'm getting to see more of their poor decisions as I assist in the process.

I'm attempting to sell their furniture and belongings through Craig's List - they aren't computer savvy at all.  I suspected that my MIL had a wicked HSN habit, I just didn't realize how bad.  This is a woman who has never made more than $38K/year, and blows well north of $400/mo just to take the express bus instead of the train to get to work, and then stop off at a cafe to have breakfast.

If Wolfgang Puck made it and sold it on HSN, she has it.  I've listed the following items, all of which have seen little to no use: Food processor, Pressure Cooker, Rice Cooker, Panini Grill, Coffee Maker, Blender, and a Nutri Bullet.  Seriously spent hundreds on each ""high end" item, b/c they are of good quality and will last, that's what she believes.

Outdoor equipment includes a pressure washer, a combo leaf blower/mulcher/vacuum, and a wet dry vac.  Lives in an apartment, and the exterior is maintained by a gardner!

Even though they knew they were moving, they went ahead and bought a top of the line shredder a few months ago.  Haven't used it yet (but took it out of the box so they can't return it), they are just stacking all the stuff they think they need to shred, but they are upset that they will sell it for a loss, since shipping such a heavy item probably doesn't make any sense.  The idea of going to Wal-Mart and buying a $30 cheapie never crossed their minds.

Both MIL & FIL have flip phones (good), but pay close to $50/mo each for service (bad).  I picked up two Republic Wireless Moto G's, lightly used off Ebay, and set up new accounts for them, with new local phone numbers.  I shipped the phones to them, so they could get accustomed to the smart phones before the next payment on their flip phones comes due.  (No contract, thankfully)  While doing some training on the phone, I discovered that they pay for WiFi.  They don't even have a computer, these phones are the closest thing to it.  And it's not like they have a VOIP home phone or a combined TV/Phone/Internet package, where it might make sense to bundle on a service you don't use.

On and on it goes.  Scary stuff.  My co-worker suggested I set up their TV service and block all shopping channels.  Never thought of it, but it sounds like a good idea!
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Geostache on November 18, 2015, 01:14:01 PM
The other day, my Mother was asking me about what to get me for my birthday (which is still half a year away). "Mom, I don't need or want anything for my birthday. Mom, "Oh, come on, you're not going to deny me the opportunity to get you something for your birthday!" Me, "Ok, Mom, give me cash." Mom, "You're just going to put it in the kids' college fund!" Me, "Yes, exactly."


Ask her for the most anti-Mustachian item that you secretly desire in your heart of hearts ... out with it ... you know you want it ...

Last Christmas my parents gave me a Happy Hacker Pro (tm) keyboard:  http://www.amazon.com/Happy-Hacking-Keyboard-Professional2-Black/dp/B000EXZ0VC/
Gas station gift cards.

I agree that if someone wants to give you a gift, I might mention something that I would like but might not get on my own. For instance, I would like some good knives along with a magnetic strip to hold them to the wall so that I can have them isolated from other cutlery. Or a good vacuum cleaner, or a coffee table would also be nice.

Am I the only one with a decent-sized mental list of these things? I want dishwasher-safe steak knives, a new mini food processor (mine is kind of broken and requires some finessing to work these days), a kitchen food scale, a couple of nice dish towels, etc.
My Christmas list has faucets and towel bars in the same finish as the lighting and cabinet hardware for the bathroom, because the previous owners used 3 different metal finishes. Also, weaving accessories. (Yes, I'm a weaver)

I settled for a gift certificate to a local spa, and treated myself to a facial. I've now figured out to ask for things that I would do anyway, that can also pass as something that is gift-like, such gift certificates to local restaurants. I also found a nice leather satchel that I can wear with my Renaissance garb (I'm in a semi-pro madrigal group). I would love to receive household improvement items as a present, but that wouldn't fly with my mom.
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: mustachepungoeshere on November 18, 2015, 04:12:20 PM
I had been feeling so smug about my organised, low-key Christmas. Too soon, apparently.

For a couple of years my MiL has talked about needing to cut back on gifts at Christmas. We were very encouraging, they need to be saving for retirement and we've been getting out of debt.

So last December we settled on a bottle swap - they buy us our favourite spirits, we buy them champagne, easy.

Then they bought us spirits AND $300 Bluetooth speakers.

After Christmas my MiL raved about the 'minimal' Christmas, and said she wanted to go even smaller next year. Yes! A couple of months ago I reminded her of the bottle swap and we agreed on it.

Last night she called my husband and said she needed ideas for gifts.

My husband reminded her of the bottle swap, she said she has to buy us more than that, but doesn't want to buy us anything we don't want (apparently I talk about decluttering so much I've put the fear of God into people who try to buy me gifts).

We don't have ideas. We don't need stuff.

As mentioned above, I could probably name one or two slightly indulgent things, but I am reluctant to do that without a price guide. (They talk about cutting back, then spend hundreds on us, and recently inherited six figures and have been a bit spendy so I don't even have a ballpark.)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Goldielocks on November 18, 2015, 04:25:46 PM
I had been feeling so smug about my organised, low-key Christmas. Too soon, apparently.

For a couple of years my MiL has talked about needing to cut back on gifts at Christmas. We were very encouraging, they need to be saving for retirement and we've been getting out of debt.

So last December we settled on a bottle swap - they buy us our favourite spirits, we buy them champagne, easy.

Then they bought us spirits AND $300 Bluetooth speakers.

After Christmas my MiL raved about the 'minimal' Christmas, and said she wanted to go even smaller next year. Yes! A couple of months ago I reminded her of the bottle swap and we agreed on it.

Last night she called my husband and said she needed ideas for gifts.

My husband reminded her of the bottle swap, she said she has to buy us more than that, but doesn't want to buy us anything we don't want (apparently I talk about decluttering so much I've put the fear of God into people who try to buy me gifts).

We don't have ideas. We don't need stuff.

As mentioned above, I could probably name one or two slightly indulgent things, but I am reluctant to do that without a price guide. (They talk about cutting back, then spend hundreds on us, and recently inherited six figures and have been a bit spendy so I don't even have a ballpark.)

What about asking for this?  There are versions as low as $10...  useful little gadgets.  I have ordered the parts and batteries and am assembling some myself as presents for those few hold outs in my family that get presents.

http://www.pny.com/powerpack-2600?sku=P-B-2600-1-S01-RB (http://www.pny.com/powerpack-2600?sku=P-B-2600-1-S01-RB)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: Pooperman on November 18, 2015, 04:39:50 PM
I had been feeling so smug about my organised, low-key Christmas. Too soon, apparently.

For a couple of years my MiL has talked about needing to cut back on gifts at Christmas. We were very encouraging, they need to be saving for retirement and we've been getting out of debt.

So last December we settled on a bottle swap - they buy us our favourite spirits, we buy them champagne, easy.

Then they bought us spirits AND $300 Bluetooth speakers.

After Christmas my MiL raved about the 'minimal' Christmas, and said she wanted to go even smaller next year. Yes! A couple of months ago I reminded her of the bottle swap and we agreed on it.

Last night she called my husband and said she needed ideas for gifts.

My husband reminded her of the bottle swap, she said she has to buy us more than that, but doesn't want to buy us anything we don't want (apparently I talk about decluttering so much I've put the fear of God into people who try to buy me gifts).

We don't have ideas. We don't need stuff.

As mentioned above, I could probably name one or two slightly indulgent things, but I am reluctant to do that without a price guide. (They talk about cutting back, then spend hundreds on us, and recently inherited six figures and have been a bit spendy so I don't even have a ballpark.)

Ask for a hug?
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: tthree on November 18, 2015, 07:27:48 PM
DH will use the excuse "The wife won't let me" if he doesn't want to do something which kind of irks me but I understand he's trying to not hurt other's feelings
If this only irks you, I consider you a saint.  I LOATHE "the wife won't let me" line.

Every once in a while I get the "can I do this?" phone call.  To which the response is something like this, "You are an adult and you can make your own decisions.  In the 15+ years we have been together have I ever told you you CAN'T do something?  No.  Then why are you asking?"

Spoiler: He is asking because he thinks it is a bad idea. 

So the next few lines are:  "If YOU think it is a bad idea, and YOU don't want to do it, then have the balls to say so.  I am not giving you prior approvable to make what you think is a bad decision, and I refuse to be painted as the bad guy.  This one's on you."

If he asked me my opinion, that would be a much more pleasant conversation:)
Title: Re: Relatives who just don't get it
Post by: zephyr911 on November 18, 2015, 07:36:18 PM
My SIL and BIL both have pretty senior jobs with the DoD that require Top Secret clearances.  Best I can tell, they're typical consumers relying on future pensions.  I know they've had some fights over money and spend lavishly by my standards, but nothing ridiculous by normal consumer standards.

Anyways, they had a blow-up fight that nearly led to a divorce and required my wife's parents to fly out and calm them both down.  It turns out, they'd both "forgotten" to file their taxes for the past ~seven years, and were blaming it on each other.  Never mind that they'd only been married ~4 years at that point.

Seriously, how do you forget to FILE taxes?  Particularly when you have to qualify for a TOP SECRET SECURITY CLEARANCE?

They even got a refund of ~$20K+ after handing everything over to an accountant to figure out for them.

How do you work for the government and not file your taxes?!?! For SEVEN YEARS!?!? So dumb.

Of course the reason they were able to get away with it is because they were getting a refund. That was very kind of them to lend the Treasury $20k though.

Sounds like they most likely also GAVE the Treasury ~$25k in addition to the loan. The IRS only gives refunds for the prior 3 years. After that, you're SOL.

A friend of mine did the same thing. I punched everything into TurboTax for her for the current year and prior 2 years at the beginning of April when I discovered this in conversation about filing taxes (very simple returns.) Every one of them was money back, but she couldn't be bothered to search for the information for the final year we could get a refund. I don't know if she had ever filed her taxes....
You know, this is fresh in my mind because I just filed to renew my TS, but they do ask (every time) if you have ever failed to FILE or PAY taxes when due.
And they do not look kindly on falsifying answers. How the fuck can anyone be so dumb?
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