Relatives who just don't get it

[Villanelle]

I've found much of the big name coffee to be a big no. McDonald's and Tim's and Dunkin, etc. It seems "off" for one reason or another. However I'll buy food or coffee once or twice in a year when I travel for work with other people. I'll go along with the group.

Would rather have coffee we brew at home with beans from the grocery store.

Agreed. I had to go into the office last week, and I left my carafe of coffee on the counter. I'm sitting on the train wondering why I'm so tired. Of course! I forgot my coffee! Due to a rampant caffeine addiction (I know.) I recognize I need coffee if I'm going to make it through my day sans caffeine-withdrawl-migraine. I stop in the Starbucks in my building lobby for a medium coffee. $4.04 for drip coffee, and it was awful. I much prefer brewing it at home, at the strength I want with whatever level of milk I'm craving that AM.

My parents have two coffee makers - a drip carafe and a Keriug - and they are still members of this Panera Coffee Club thing. (I think my mom does a weekly breakfast there with some other retired ladies, so maybe she thought it was a good idea for that?) But like, she'll drive to my sister's to watch the her kiddos and pick up a coffee from Panera on the way... when she has TWO perfectly good coffee makers that can make coffee to go in far less time than it takes for her to go to Panera, wait in the drive-through, and get a mediocre coffee. I just... ugh. Is it a conspicuous consumption thing if the only person seeing you consume it is not even 2?

The unfortunate thing is, I can chart my "let's just get dinner out" impetus - which is our big budget hole and has been for years - from this drive-through mentality in my upbringing. I'm still battling it and trying to train/organize myself around cooking and eating at home.

Wow, I've never seen a Panera with a drive-though.  I'm surprised they have them since usually the food takes longer than fast-food timing to prepare. 

[bananas]

I much prefer brewing it at home, at the strength I want with whatever level of milk I'm craving that AM.

My parents have two coffee makers - a drip carafe and a Keriug - and they are still members of this Panera Coffee Club thing. (I think my mom does a weekly breakfast there with some other retired ladies, so maybe she thought it was a good idea for that?) But like, she'll drive to my sister's to watch the her kiddos and pick up a coffee from Panera on the way... when she has TWO perfectly good coffee makers that can make coffee to go in far less time than it takes for her to go to Panera, wait in the drive-through, and get a mediocre coffee. I just... ugh. Is it a conspicuous consumption thing if the only person seeing you consume it is not even 2?

I've been a home coffee drinker for years, but this year I started putting more effort into making it taste as good as possible by getting better beans, grinding them at home, and switching to a brewing method that more reliably results in tasty coffee (aeropress). And now that I'm doing this, my coffee tastes ridiculously better than anything I could get at the places near work (Starbucks, Peets, etc), and it's SO cheap by comparison, that it's honestly amazing to me that anyone would spend so much at these places. And people get so attached to their daily purchase ritual! "I just couldn't survive without my daily Starbucks" etc.

[AlanStache]

I try to look at paying for a cafe drink and pastry I will consume at the shop as the cost to 'rent' a seat in the cafe.  You want to hang out in public and read a book for a bit - cool, but it will cost 12$ and you will get a free coffee and sandwich.  Yes I know parks and libraries exist.  I take much more issue with car dependency, suburban strip malls and national level homogeneity, Panera's in Settle and Miami are indistinguishable, than I do with spending a bit of money down the block for a chair while I eat lunch with the people from my neighborhood.  I have traveled a lot in the US and way too much of it looks exactly the same and has the same chains along identical looking stroads.

Half dozen retires driving to get together for a coffee once a week is good, but I think it is far short of them living in walking distance of each other and a locally owned & operated gathering place.  Living near each other facilitates more and more unplanned social interaction.  (yes I know not everyone can walk and no I am not suggesting banning cars...) 

For many people a cup of Starbucks is as much a fashion accessory as it is a coffee.

[Log]

^well put, Alanstache - cafes and this kind of consumption are pretty much what “the good life” is about to my mind, if you’re talking about meeting up with friends over a cup of coffee, enjoying a third place where you exist around other people in your community. I think “X is cheaper at home” is the insidious reason behind a lot of rising loneliness. But yeah, fuck drive-through coffee.

Re: “I make better coffee at home:” A lot of these chains with mediocre coffee were founded on second wave coffee, but if their reputation is based on consistency, then it’s safer to keep making the same style of coffee they’ve always made, even if a new style is becoming more popular. I think Blue Bottle is the biggest any chain has gotten yet on third wave coffee, but I’m sure there will be more to come.  Basically any local coffee shop founded in the last 15 years will probably be third wave, and about half of those will be really quite good at what they do. I’m very happy to support local cafes that are offering a third place for the community and really care about the excellence of their craft. I’ll make coffee at home for cheaper 95+% of the time, but I won’t pretend my coffee at home is nearly as good as coffee from the best cafes, and $4-5 here and there towards great local businesses is not a vice I am ashamed of.

[glacio09]

I agree with the above comments. A good cafe with good coffee is a great (relatively) frugal third space if done properly. Once or twice week. Plain coffee with a nice croissant if I'm really going crazy and my library book. Back when I was single it meant that for $20 a week I got a few hours of enjoyment multiple times a week.

Starbucks, however, did not became the company it is because of people like me.

[Metalcat]

I agree with the above comments. A good cafe with good coffee is a great (relatively) frugal third space if done properly. Once or twice week. Plain coffee with a nice croissant if I'm really going crazy and my library book. Back when I was single it meant that for $20 a week I got a few hours of enjoyment multiple times a week.

Starbucks, however, did not became the company it is because of people like me.

Totally agree. I love my neighborhood, but one of the downsides of living in a very high crime area with an enormous homeless population is that we have no coffee shops. I LOVE a nice, cozy coffee shop even though I don't drink coffee.

I actually have the BEST coffee shop out in my little village of 170 people in the middle of bloody nowhere Newfoundland. It's owned by a Gen X dude from Toronto and is exactly the kind of artsy 90s cafe that I used to love. DH says the coffee is VERY good.

The joy of going there isn't the beverages or even the very, very excellent baked goods, but the experience of going...also, it's literally the only business in the village.

[Villanelle]

In my old fantastic, walkable neighborhood, I would go to the local independent coffee shop 1-2 times a week.  I don't drink coffee, but they made a nice cup of tea, in several different forms.  More than that, they knew me.  Steve knew my order when I walked in. "London Fog today, or something else, Villanelle?" Steve and I had several conversations about literature based on my novel-cover graphic tees I wore most days.  I knew when Steve put in his notice to move back to Texas, where he was from.  Etc.  I would sit and write for a couple hours.  If I was there long enough, I might order a second beverage or a cookie.  The cookies were handmade by a lady who carried them in, and then went straight into the bakery case and usually didn't last more than an hour.  Divine.

None of this is particularly mustachian, by most definitions.  But it meant enough to me that if I still lived there, I'd have considered returning to work part-time before giving that up. 

[ATtiny85]

In my old fantastic, walkable neighborhood, I would go to the local independent coffee shop 1-2 times a week.  I don't drink coffee, but they made a nice cup of tea, in several different forms.  More than that, they knew me.  Steve knew my order when I walked in. "London Fog today, or something else, Villanelle?" Steve and I had several conversations about literature based on my novel-cover graphic tees I wore most days.  I knew when Steve put in his notice to move back to Texas, where he was from.  Etc.  I would sit and write for a couple hours.  If I was there long enough, I might order a second beverage or a cookie.  The cookies were handmade by a lady who carried them in, and then went straight into the bakery case and usually didn't last more than an hour.  Divine.

None of this is particularly mustachian, by most definitions.  But it meant enough to me that if I still lived there, I'd have considered returning to work part-time before giving that up.

This is one of little pleasures in life for sure. I have not lived in a place where it is possible to walk to any business safely in a number of years, but anytime we are on vacation I always look for a coffee place we can walk to from our accommodations. I hope that our retirement home has the ability to walk to a coffee shop. Perfect would be something like 45 minutes to an hour walking distance.

[ixtap]

In my old fantastic, walkable neighborhood, I would go to the local independent coffee shop 1-2 times a week.  I don't drink coffee, but they made a nice cup of tea, in several different forms.  More than that, they knew me.  Steve knew my order when I walked in. "London Fog today, or something else, Villanelle?" Steve and I had several conversations about literature based on my novel-cover graphic tees I wore most days.  I knew when Steve put in his notice to move back to Texas, where he was from.  Etc.  I would sit and write for a couple hours.  If I was there long enough, I might order a second beverage or a cookie.  The cookies were handmade by a lady who carried them in, and then went straight into the bakery case and usually didn't last more than an hour.  Divine.

None of this is particularly mustachian, by most definitions.  But it meant enough to me that if I still lived there, I'd have considered returning to work part-time before giving that up.

That is a staffing question. One of my friends once walked into our grad school's chain coffee shop where we hung out together and asked them what I usually get, as he wanted to surprise me while I was working on a big project. They made an extra large and didn't charge him at all.

[TomTX]

When a relative died a few years ago the apartment was full of unopened boxes from QVC and maybe other places. It would have been nice if the boxes could have been opened and contents given away. Unfortunately, the apartment was in an old, old building in a major city and was infested with bed bugs! One of the relatives did go in and remove paperwork and some jewelry and a few things that bed bugs couldn't penetrate. Professional disposal guys with zipup suits had to dispose the contenets of the apartment into a garbage truck. The deceased person either wasn't bothered by the bugs when alive or after being hospitalized for a period of time they took over. Seems those old building are infested. You spray one apartment and they skitter over to another.

Back when my aunt and uncle had apartments, they would periodically have a "bug bomb party" for the residents. Provide a free keg of beer plus some watermelons or whatever to get all the residents outside (mostly college students) - and bug bomb every single apartment at effectively the same time.

[Just Joe]

In my old fantastic, walkable neighborhood, I would go to the local independent coffee shop 1-2 times a week.  I don't drink coffee, but they made a nice cup of tea, in several different forms.  More than that, they knew me.  Steve knew my order when I walked in. "London Fog today, or something else, Villanelle?" Steve and I had several conversations about literature based on my novel-cover graphic tees I wore most days.  I knew when Steve put in his notice to move back to Texas, where he was from.  Etc.  I would sit and write for a couple hours.  If I was there long enough, I might order a second beverage or a cookie.  The cookies were handmade by a lady who carried them in, and then went straight into the bakery case and usually didn't last more than an hour.  Divine.

None of this is particularly mustachian, by most definitions.  But it meant enough to me that if I still lived there, I'd have considered returning to work part-time before giving that up.

We love our local cafes. Our town has a few. The franchise brands aren't very inspiring but they are consistent.

We have seldom visited our favorite cafe in recent times - like once since last winter. The most amazing thing is we can walk in and the barista actually remembers our order more times than not. No idea how they accomplish that. ;)

I'll happily let go of a few coins (-errr, dollars) for a place to sit and wait for someone, or rest and read at a cafe.

[Weisass]

In my old fantastic, walkable neighborhood, I would go to the local independent coffee shop 1-2 times a week.  I don't drink coffee, but they made a nice cup of tea, in several different forms.  More than that, they knew me.  Steve knew my order when I walked in. "London Fog today, or something else, Villanelle?" Steve and I had several conversations about literature based on my novel-cover graphic tees I wore most days.  I knew when Steve put in his notice to move back to Texas, where he was from.  Etc.  I would sit and write for a couple hours.  If I was there long enough, I might order a second beverage or a cookie.  The cookies were handmade by a lady who carried them in, and then went straight into the bakery case and usually didn't last more than an hour.  Divine.

None of this is particularly mustachian, by most definitions.  But it meant enough to me that if I still lived there, I'd have considered returning to work part-time before giving that up.

This is one of the things I love best about where I live. It isn’t perfect, but nowhere is. And here I can walk to the train, multiple stores and coffee shops, countless bars and restaurants, a gym, a public pool and two libraries, all of it within a two mile radius.

[Metalcat]

Lol, thanks to this thread I'm getting Panera memes on FB and one just popped up saying that Panera is just bougie hospital food. Lol.

[Zamboni]

I heard that there's a second trial because Panera's hyper-caffeinated bottomless energy drinks keep killing people.

Wow, that poor young lady. I tend to add a splash of lemonade to my soda, and I'm sure I did on that Panera trip. I don't recall anything which indicated that their lemonade is an over-the-top energy drink. I do remember something about it being all natural or some such thing. No wonder that young lady thought she was drinking something safe instead of realizing it might cause her heart to stop. Why in the heck would they even be spiking two different stimulants into their lemonades? Oh. . . that's right . . . to get people addicted to coming into Panera.

[Gronnie]

I think the lemonade from the fountain and the "Charged Lemonade" are two different things. It should be pretty clear what you are getting when you specially order the "Charged" lemonade.

[Zamboni]

I'm fairly certain that the charged lemonade was in the customer self-filled drink area when I was there. I do remember thinking the name was odd. In any case, bottomless energy drinks for one low low price is probably a bad idea, but I'm generally supportive of people having the freedom to make their own decisions even if those decisions aren't optimal.

Meanwhile, several empty "sip club" cups are strewn about their apartment. It is one of many indications that my estimate about when they start asking for money again probably needs to be sooner rather than later, unfortunately.

[Apples]

Can confirm that the Charged Lemonade was in the customer self-fill area.  One of my knitting friends regularly got it. 

[Gronnie]

Wow that changes my perception of the entire situation drastically. That seems ridiculously irresponsible.

[theninthwall]

I'm fairly certain that the charged lemonade was in the customer self-filled drink area when I was there. I do remember thinking the name was odd. In any case, bottomless energy drinks for one low low price is probably a bad idea, but I'm generally supportive of people having the freedom to make their own decisions even if those decisions aren't optimal.

I guess the problem comes in whether or not the charged lemonade was clearly labeled as an energy drink. If not, I think that is genuinely negligent.

[Smokystache]

Interesting to see the different levels of caffeine. At first, I didn't like the differences in ounces. However, we often tend to think in terms of "1 drink" based on what we order. I'm going to guess that the average person wasn't realizing that their 1 large Charged Lemonade (30 oz) was the equivalent caffeine of 2.5 cans of Monster Energy OR almost 5 cans of Red Bull. Not to mention many of us would want to "get our money's worth" and get a self-service refill to take with us.





Although I also don't think the average person realizes how much caffeine is in a large/venti Starbucks or DD coffee

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Can confirm that the Charged Lemonade was in the customer self-fill area.  One of my knitting friends regularly got it.

Of all the things I truly would not prefer to have with knitting needles in my hands. Not in the interests of public safety.

[Psychstache]

Every region has their very much overhyped, mediocre food/beverage dispensary. Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Peat's Coffee, In-and-Out, Buckee's (gas station but has food). You get the idea. If someone wants to be overly obsessed, that's their choice. Only good thing is they tend to not be disgusting and to have a certain level of uniformity, so you know what you're getting.

So, I am assuming you are referring to the Texas gas station. If so, they do have a legitimate reason to stand out: It is THE place to stop if you are in the middle of nowhere in Texas and need to go to the bathroom. While they have all the advertising cult of the beaver and mediocre food, their promise of plentiful and clean bathrooms is a true differentiator.

[getsorted]

Lol, thanks to this thread I'm getting Panera memes on FB and one just popped up saying that Panera is just bougie hospital food. Lol.

I have also seen "Panera is fast food for people who think they are above fast food."

I always associate Panera with hospitals because it was the only restaurant in walking distance from a hospital where I spent a lot of time 15 years ago. But then the hospital upgraded its cafeteria, and we all agreed it was now much better than Panera!

[Sibley]

Every region has their very much overhyped, mediocre food/beverage dispensary. Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Peat's Coffee, In-and-Out, Buckee's (gas station but has food). You get the idea. If someone wants to be overly obsessed, that's their choice. Only good thing is they tend to not be disgusting and to have a certain level of uniformity, so you know what you're getting.

So, I am assuming you are referring to the Texas gas station. If so, they do have a legitimate reason to stand out: It is THE place to stop if you are in the middle of nowhere in Texas and need to go to the bathroom. While they have all the advertising cult of the beaver and mediocre food, their promise of plentiful and clean bathrooms is a true differentiator.

The availability or cleanliness of the bathrooms has never made the list of why Buckee's is so great in the conversations I've had.

[Shrinkydink8]

Chuckling at the Panera Sip Club comments.  So, no face punches, but I actually joined the Sip Club.  I was on a business trip and ordered Panera and a pop-up came on screen asking me if I'd like to join the club, for $5 for 2 months.  My ice tea was going to be 3.69 anyway, so I joined it.  The Panera was between my hotel and the office, so I happily stopped there 3x/day to get some tea.  I really love tea in all its forms.  I go there now only if I end up near it anyway.  Yeah, I'll miss it when my subscription is up at the end of this month, but no way I'm going to renew.  Oh yeah, and once a week I get a coupon for a $2 pastry.  That sucks me in every time.

[iluvzbeach]

Every region has their very much overhyped, mediocre food/beverage dispensary. Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Peat's Coffee, In-and-Out, Buckee's (gas station but has food). You get the idea. If someone wants to be overly obsessed, that's their choice. Only good thing is they tend to not be disgusting and to have a certain level of uniformity, so you know what you're getting.

So, I am assuming you are referring to the Texas gas station. If so, they do have a legitimate reason to stand out: It is THE place to stop if you are in the middle of nowhere in Texas and need to go to the bathroom. While they have all the advertising cult of the beaver and mediocre food, their promise of plentiful and clean bathrooms is a true differentiator.

The availability or cleanliness of the bathrooms has never made the list of why Buckee's is so great in the conversations I've had.

Oh, yes. The restrooms at Buc-ee’s are outstanding. Extremely plentiful, spotless and stalls that are very private in comparison to regular public restroom stalls. The quality of their restrooms is well known amongst women who live in, or drive through, areas where Buc-ee’s gas stations are.

[Villanelle]

I thought of all of you yesterday when I had lunch at Panera. I needed to pick up some items as part of a fundraiser I'm working on with a women's education group.  I reached out the woman who had the items for me and to arrange pick up.  She suggested 1130 later that day, and said, "and maybe we could grab a quick lunch, too."  I'd intended to just do a quick drive-by, but I enjoy this woman's company so I agreed.  She suggested Panera and my heart was warmed by the thought of their broccoli cheddar soup.

I did not join the sip club.  I also didn't see the "charged" drinks, but I only half looked.  (I had iced tea.)

It was a lovely place for sitting and getting to know better this interesting woman for an hour.  (No pants were harmed in the making of this post.)

[Morning Glory]

Every region has their very much overhyped, mediocre food/beverage dispensary. Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Peat's Coffee, In-and-Out, Buckee's (gas station but has food). You get the idea. If someone wants to be overly obsessed, that's their choice. Only good thing is they tend to not be disgusting and to have a certain level of uniformity, so you know what you're getting.

So, I am assuming you are referring to the Texas gas station. If so, they do have a legitimate reason to stand out: It is THE place to stop if you are in the middle of nowhere in Texas and need to go to the bathroom. While they have all the advertising cult of the beaver and mediocre food, their promise of plentiful and clean bathrooms is a true differentiator.

The availability or cleanliness of the bathrooms has never made the list of why Buckee's is so great in the conversations I've had.

Oh, yes. The restrooms at Buc-ee’s are outstanding. Extremely plentiful, spotless and stalls that are very private in comparison to regular public restroom stalls. The quality of their restrooms is well known amongst women who live in, or drive through, areas where Buc-ee’s gas stations are.

So it's like Kwik Trip but without the loss-leader dairy products and bananas?

[oneday]

Although I also don't think the average person realizes how much caffeine is in a large/venti Starbucks or DD coffee

FYI, I was going to reply that 16 oz is a medium/grande at Sbux, but in the reply I am seeing you have a second image, which is not showing for me.

In case anyone else can't see it: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9e_noGXkAA_OkD?format=jpg&name=small

[iluvzbeach]

Every region has their very much overhyped, mediocre food/beverage dispensary. Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Peat's Coffee, In-and-Out, Buckee's (gas station but has food). You get the idea. If someone wants to be overly obsessed, that's their choice. Only good thing is they tend to not be disgusting and to have a certain level of uniformity, so you know what you're getting.

So, I am assuming you are referring to the Texas gas station. If so, they do have a legitimate reason to stand out: It is THE place to stop if you are in the middle of nowhere in Texas and need to go to the bathroom. While they have all the advertising cult of the beaver and mediocre food, their promise of plentiful and clean bathrooms is a true differentiator.

The availability or cleanliness of the bathrooms has never made the list of why Buckee's is so great in the conversations I've had.

Oh, yes. The restrooms at Buc-ee’s are outstanding. Extremely plentiful, spotless and stalls that are very private in comparison to regular public restroom stalls. The quality of their restrooms is well known amongst women who live in, or drive through, areas where Buc-ee’s gas stations are.

So it's like Kwik Trip but without the loss-leader dairy products and bananas?

Don’t know. Am not familiar with Kwik Trip.

[ixtap]

Every region has their very much overhyped, mediocre food/beverage dispensary. Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Peat's Coffee, In-and-Out, Buckee's (gas station but has food). You get the idea. If someone wants to be overly obsessed, that's their choice. Only good thing is they tend to not be disgusting and to have a certain level of uniformity, so you know what you're getting.

So, I am assuming you are referring to the Texas gas station. If so, they do have a legitimate reason to stand out: It is THE place to stop if you are in the middle of nowhere in Texas and need to go to the bathroom. While they have all the advertising cult of the beaver and mediocre food, their promise of plentiful and clean bathrooms is a true differentiator.

The availability or cleanliness of the bathrooms has never made the list of why Buckee's is so great in the conversations I've had.

Oh, yes. The restrooms at Buc-ee’s are outstanding. Extremely plentiful, spotless and stalls that are very private in comparison to regular public restroom stalls. The quality of their restrooms is well known amongst women who live in, or drive through, areas where Buc-ee’s gas stations are.

So it's like Kwik Trip but without the loss-leader dairy products and bananas?

Don’t know. Am not familiar with Kwik Trip.

I prefer Kwik Trip. Buccees is so large and popular it can be hard to get in and out.

[eyesonthehorizon]

Every region has their very much overhyped, mediocre food/beverage dispensary. Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Peat's Coffee, In-and-Out, Buckee's (gas station but has food). You get the idea. If someone wants to be overly obsessed, that's their choice. Only good thing is they tend to not be disgusting and to have a certain level of uniformity, so you know what you're getting.

So, I am assuming you are referring to the Texas gas station. If so, they do have a legitimate reason to stand out: It is THE place to stop if you are in the middle of nowhere in Texas and need to go to the bathroom. While they have all the advertising cult of the beaver and mediocre food, their promise of plentiful and clean bathrooms is a true differentiator.

The availability or cleanliness of the bathrooms has never made the list of why Buckee's is so great in the conversations I've had.

It depends on how recently they discovered Buc-ee's or got one nearby, & the length of the drives/ proximity to alternatives. If there are lots of options, or it is an ongoing fixture of your area or travel route, the bathrooms are a known unchanging thing, so the conversation goes elsewhere. But if the route is uncertain or under-supplied, the first thing women are likely to address to each other is that it is a clean, secured, well-lit place to pee with functional sinks, because gas station bathrooms at least in the middle of Texas nowhere can get pretty scary. Unisex filthy single bathroom lit by a single bare bulb, not only placed outside the station but not in view of the interior of the station was a personal worst. Fortunately we were in a group & could stand guard for each other, because that door had a two inch gap underneath, elevated a couple feet off the ground, & barely latched shut, although there was a sign to ask for a key to use it. No privacy or security.

This is of course less a concern now that you can just pull an up-to-date smartphone map of available bathrooms, but back in the day it was all subject to the ruthless logic of "when you gotta go, you gotta go."

[Metalcat]

Sorry to derail the rest stop bathroom chat, but I have a relative story to share.

I keep rolling my eye HARD at a relative who is bragging/complaining to me constantly about how they're being "extremely frugal" by downsizing to a "tiny house."

The house they are putting an offer on is larger than my house AND has a whole separate bunky on the lot. The price also happens to be the *exact same* purchase price of all 4 of the units I recently bought COMBINED.

It's also renovated to within an inch of its life with the most high end, craftsman style finishes. The house is truly stunning, but my issue with that is that the husband is a frickin' contractor!

These are retired folks who are depending entirely on selling their house to fund their retirement, so you think they would be trying to maximize the money they keep from the sale. But nope, they have always been entitled and still feel entitled to the best of everything. This move is actually them being WAY MORE reasonable than they've ever been before. This is a massive improvement.

But now I get to hear endlessly about the hardship of having to downsize to a "tiny house" that's bigger than mine.

And yes, they know what a tiny house actually is, they know that the Bunkie alone is the size of a typical "tiny house," and yet that's what they insist on telling everyone they're buying.

[Tass]

I have also observed relatives using "frugal" to mean "bought something for cheaper than I otherwise might have" rather than "tried not to buy something unless necessary."

On a different scale than home buying, but still.

[ixtap]

Sorry to derail the rest stop bathroom chat, but I have a relative story to share.

I keep rolling my eye HARD at a relative who is bragging/complaining to me constantly about how they're being "extremely frugal" by downsizing to a "tiny house."

Oh, I forgot. I was chatting with SIL the other day and she said they are thinking of moving "to be closer to take care of (her) Mother." They had fallen in love with a newly remodeled house with her dream kitchen. It was a little more than twice the Zillow estimate for their current house..they are mid to late fifties, I have no reason to think they have any retirement savings. It is possible they have paid off the current house or are about too (in which case those missing mortgage payments would be burning a hole in their collective pocket). Just before COVID she was talking about almost being out of consumer debt, just a family loan left to go. Well, that family loan is to my parents, so I happen to know they still haven't made any payments on it. I also happen to know it has been weighing on my Mom lately. She brought it up when we were talking about planning their upcoming 60th anniversary and how they could afford to do anything they could dream of if that were paid back. I am working on planning something fabulous within their unpaid back budget, anyway.

[Dicey]

Sorry to derail the rest stop bathroom chat, but I have a relative story to share.

I keep rolling my eye HARD at a relative who is bragging/complaining to me constantly about how they're being "extremely frugal" by downsizing to a "tiny house."

Oh, I forgot. I was chatting with SIL the other day and she said they are thinking of moving "to be closer to take care of (her) Mother." They had fallen in love with a newly remodeled house with her dream kitchen. It was a little more than twice the Zillow estimate for their current house..they are mid to late fifties, I have no reason to think they have any retirement savings. It is possible they have paid off the current house or are about too (in which case those missing mortgage payments would be burning a hole in their collective pocket). Just before COVID she was talking about almost being out of consumer debt, just a family loan left to go. Well, that family loan is to my parents, so I happen to know they still haven't made any payments on it. I also happen to know it has been weighing on my Mom lately. She brought it up when we were talking about planning their upcoming 60th anniversary and how they could afford to do anything they could dream of if that were paid back. I am working on planning something fabulous within their unpaid back budget, anyway.

Good for you!

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Sorry to derail the rest stop bathroom chat, but I have a relative story to share.

I keep rolling my eye HARD at a relative who is bragging/complaining to me constantly about how they're being "extremely frugal" by downsizing to a "tiny house."

The house they are putting an offer on is larger than my house AND has a whole separate bunky on the lot. The price also happens to be the *exact same* purchase price of all 4 of the units I recently bought COMBINED.

It's also renovated to within an inch of its life with the most high end, craftsman style finishes. The house is truly stunning, but my issue with that is that the husband is a frickin' contractor!

These are retired folks who are depending entirely on selling their house to fund their retirement, so you think they would be trying to maximize the money they keep from the sale. But nope, they have always been entitled and still feel entitled to the best of everything. This move is actually them being WAY MORE reasonable than they've ever been before. This is a massive improvement.

But now I get to hear endlessly about the hardship of having to downsize to a "tiny house" that's bigger than mine.

And yes, they know what a tiny house actually is, they know that the Bunkie alone is the size of a typical "tiny house," and yet that's what they insist on telling everyone they're buying.

Maybe they'll shock everyone's socks off by living in the Bunkie and renting out the larger home.

[Log]

Oof. Was just out with my brothers this morning and one brother made some comment about how we're obviously in a recession. When I tried to say that the economy is growing, which is literally the opposite of a recession, he said that the stock market doesn't count because the stock market is just fake money for rich people. I asked if he had a 401k and he said no (but that he was going to start one soon, so there's that at least!) Other brother also piled on with him about how the stock market is evil and fake and bad "because billionaires," or whatever 🙄.

They are 29 and 33, so at least they still have time. Maybe I should have tried at some point to take the conversation back to how we are definitely not in a recession, but instead they dragged the conversation down into how developers are evil and the city councilors who allow development are all corrupt and bad.

[Metalcat]

Sorry to derail the rest stop bathroom chat, but I have a relative story to share.

I keep rolling my eye HARD at a relative who is bragging/complaining to me constantly about how they're being "extremely frugal" by downsizing to a "tiny house."

The house they are putting an offer on is larger than my house AND has a whole separate bunky on the lot. The price also happens to be the *exact same* purchase price of all 4 of the units I recently bought COMBINED.

It's also renovated to within an inch of its life with the most high end, craftsman style finishes. The house is truly stunning, but my issue with that is that the husband is a frickin' contractor!

These are retired folks who are depending entirely on selling their house to fund their retirement, so you think they would be trying to maximize the money they keep from the sale. But nope, they have always been entitled and still feel entitled to the best of everything. This move is actually them being WAY MORE reasonable than they've ever been before. This is a massive improvement.

But now I get to hear endlessly about the hardship of having to downsize to a "tiny house" that's bigger than mine.

And yes, they know what a tiny house actually is, they know that the Bunkie alone is the size of a typical "tiny house," and yet that's what they insist on telling everyone they're buying.

Maybe they'll shock everyone's socks off by living in the Bunkie and renting out the larger home.

The bunkie is planned to be their dedicated gym space. Only one of them works out and she usually pays to go to Pilates class.

[ATtiny85]

Oof. Was just out with my brothers this morning and one brother made some comment about how we're obviously in a recession. When I tried to say that the economy is growing, which is literally the opposite of a recession, he said that the stock market doesn't count because the stock market is just fake money for rich people. I asked if he had a 401k and he said no (but that he was going to start one soon, so there's that at least!) Other brother also piled on with him about how the stock market is evil and fake and bad "because billionaires," or whatever 🙄.

They are 29 and 33, so at least they still have time. Maybe I should have tried at some point to take the conversation back to how we are definitely not in a recession, but instead they dragged the conversation down into how developers are evil and the city councilors who allow development are all corrupt and bad.

OK, so no stock market and no real estate. Crypto is left, gold is sort of left. Most important is to make it clear early that “bank-of-Log” is definitely not an option. Giving them 20+ years notice should be enough.

[Log]

Oof. Was just out with my brothers this morning and one brother made some comment about how we're obviously in a recession. When I tried to say that the economy is growing, which is literally the opposite of a recession, he said that the stock market doesn't count because the stock market is just fake money for rich people. I asked if he had a 401k and he said no (but that he was going to start one soon, so there's that at least!) Other brother also piled on with him about how the stock market is evil and fake and bad "because billionaires," or whatever 🙄.

They are 29 and 33, so at least they still have time. Maybe I should have tried at some point to take the conversation back to how we are definitely not in a recession, but instead they dragged the conversation down into how developers are evil and the city councilors who allow development are all corrupt and bad.

OK, so no stock market and no real estate. Crypto is left, gold is sort of left. Most important is to make it clear early that “bank-of-Log” is definitely not an option. Giving them 20+ years notice should be enough.

They're definitely not crypto bros, just operating under a morality system where having wealth at all is bad and evil. I think that way of thinking is much more common than many of us realize.

Maybe instead of asking whether he had a 401k, I should have pointed out that our mom has a 401k, but her wealth on paper is not especially significant since most of her retirement is reliant on a public sector pension, so that perhaps reinforces my brothers' belief that only rich people have stocks. Unfortunately, no pensions on the way for my brothers. (See the thread on "what's so good about pensions" - at least they force oblivious people to save.)

One brother's fiancee owns a house outright from a windfall, so they've got a huge financial head start despite their financial obliviousness.

The other brother has been living off military disability for the last few years, enjoying unemployed videogame addiction and racking up some credit card debt along the way. He's been getting therapy and is using his GI Bill now to go to community college, so maybe he'll get his shit together.

[SwordGuy]

just operating under a morality system where having wealth at all is bad and evil.

Money doesn't make people good or evil.  It just makes it much easier for them to act like the people they already are. 

I think that way of thinking is much more common than many of us realize.

I was surprised to find that out some years back.  It's very self-defeating.

[Tass]

They're definitely not crypto bros, just operating under a morality system where having wealth at all is bad and evil. I think that way of thinking is much more common than many of us realize.

Oh, my in-laws (who I live near) have a strong streak of this. I don't think they apply it to us, but I always feel a little cautious that someday they might. It's a good thing we are not remotely interested in real estate, because becoming landlords would be judged extremely harshly.

[Log]

just operating under a morality system where having wealth at all is bad and evil.

Money doesn't make people good or evil.  It just makes it much easier for them to act like the people they already are. 

I think that way of thinking is much more common than many of us realize.

I was surprised to find that out some years back.  It's very self-defeating.

To be fair, coming from the same upbringing as them, I easily could have ended up in the same mode of thinking. Stumbling upon the right mentors at the right time was pivotal for me, both real and parasocial. I could chalk it up to finding MMM, but if I think about sending MMM to my brothers, I can foresee them rejecting the message for various reasons (namely just saying that this is only possible on a fancy tech salary.) I was only amenable to the message because I passed through the right pipeline of other influences along the way.

[DutchGirl]

Hopefully the one brother who is talking to a psychologist will at some point explore what earning money and/or accumulating wealth means to them.

Personally, I do not need to become rich, but I do want to have financial independence. Not an extreme lot of money is needed for that, especially if you are smart and frugal and resourceful. Maybe that tickles their fancy some more? Develop skills so that you are less reliant on those evil billionaires and all the things they wanna sell to you?

[Zamboni]

^This is a good tactic: putting your money to work so you become independent from "the man."

I will say that it is likely difficult to save money with a video game addiction. So many of the games are endorphin boosters and pay-to-play now . . .  anyone could get hooked and quickly be pouring more money than they have into the streaming game black hole. It's a way to have attainable daily or weekly goals auto-set for you by the game and makes your brain feel like you are successful and making progress each day. It feels like an accomplishment to reach the goals set by the game, and for many people it is a needed escape from other stressors. I've watched older relatives pour their life savings into Candy Crush (no joke), and the younger ones wipe out every brown penny with games like Fortnite, CoD, and NBA 2K. I've got nothing against these games, which can be quite fun: but beware, don't get addicted!
Here is one of the best videos I've seen about coping with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7aI9a0ACWc&t=818s

In addition, I wouldn't so easily write off Mr Money Mustache for your brothers, Log. He has a lot of self-reliant messaging that appeals to young men. Fix your own car, learn to do some construction trades, 50 ways to earn good money without a college degree, etc. I mean the dude painted the peeling roof of an old van that he bought with flat black paint and a paint brush! There are also some military vets who have posted a lot on the boards (like @Nords who wrote a book about turning military pensions into much bigger stashes.)

Finally, I have a brother who doesn't trust the stock market. He got burned very early on in life with a predatory advisor. He doesn't trust the stock market, and he hasn't saved a cash stash for retirement. What he has been willing to do recently is start putting money in money markets (like VMFXX and SPAXX.) Long term these aren't the greatest investments, but at the moment they are yielding 5+%, which is certainly better than a poke in the eye. It gives him a place to stash cash while he gets comfortable with holding money at places like Vanguard and Fidelity. Once he has a decent pile going I will suggest putting a "bucket" on the money into stocks long, but not right now (he's not ready and there are indeed lots of indicators of a looming recession.)

So, you could rave about that more conservative option for putting money in a Roth IRA . . . YOU NEVER HAVE TO PAY TAX ON THAT MONEY AGAIN! That might appeal to your brothers. I sure wish someone had repeatedly shoved the Roth IRA message down my throat when I was in my 20's.

[ixtap]

They're definitely not crypto bros, just operating under a morality system where having wealth at all is bad and evil. I think that way of thinking is much more common than many of us realize.

Oh, my in-laws (who I live near) have a strong streak of this. I don't think they apply it to us, but I always feel a little cautious that someday they might. It's a good thing we are not remotely interested in real estate, because becoming landlords would be judged extremely harshly.

I have a few family members who simultaneously buy into prosperity gospel crap and rail against the rich.

[former player]

^This is a good tactic: putting your money to work so you become independent from "the man."

I will say that it is likely difficult to save money with a video game addiction. So many of the games are endorphin boosters and pay-to-play now . . .  anyone could get hooked and quickly be pouring more money than they have into the streaming game black hole. It's a way to have attainable daily or weekly goals auto-set for you by the game and makes your brain feel like you are successful and making progress each day. It feels like an accomplishment to reach the goals set by the game, and for many people it is a needed escape from other stressors. I've watched older relatives pour their life savings into Candy Crush (no joke), and the younger ones wipe out every brown penny with games like Fortnite, CoD, and NBA 2K. I've got nothing against these games, which can be quite fun: but beware, don't get addicted!
Here is one of the best videos I've seen about coping with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7aI9a0ACWc&t=818s

I saw somewhere that the most expensive house in one of the most expensive squares in London is owned by the man who owns Candy Crush.  I vowed there and then never to put a single penny into streaming games.  (And honestly, if you can't beat Candy Crush without paying for it should you be playing video games at all?)

[Log]

...
In addition, I wouldn't so easily write off Mr Money Mustache for your brothers, Log. He has a lot of self-reliant messaging that appeals to young men. Fix your own car, learn to do some construction trades, 50 ways to earn good money without a college degree, etc. I mean the dude painted the peeling roof of an old van that he bought with flat black paint and a paint brush! There are also some military vets who have posted a lot on the boards (like @Nords who wrote a book about turning military pensions into much bigger stashes.)
...

That's valid, and perhaps some day sooner rather than later I should try to drop the hint. It's just that in addition to not knowing whether MMM is the right messenger, I question whether I'm the right messenger what with being their know-it-all younger brother with a fancy masters degree who lives in a big snobby expensive city (as they see it).

Still, I really do not want to be stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to their financial situations later in life, and with the right approach, I could help set them on the path towards independence now. I will just need to approach the subject with a very careful touch if I hope to actually get anything through to either of them.

[iluvzbeach]

Zamboni, that is an excellent post!  I really enjoyed it.

I had no idea that people pay to play video games, aside from the purchase of a console, cartridge or some sort of software.  So glad that this has never been a thing that DH or I were even remotely interested in.