Relatives who just don't get it

[Zamboni]

. . . . entitlement class parents who are tech-savvy enough to set up all kinds of electronic subscriptions for themselves refuse to set up education funds for their children or retirement investments for themselves.

This sums up the essence of my step mom perfectly, and she comes with a healthy dose of con artist mentality thrown in for seasoning. Plus, she wants a pat on the head for finding and canceling a few of the idiotic subscriptions and gazingus-pin-of-the-month clubs that she signed up for.

[Metalcat]

. . . . entitlement class parents who are tech-savvy enough to set up all kinds of electronic subscriptions for themselves refuse to set up education funds for their children or retirement investments for themselves.

This sums up the essence of my step mom perfectly, and she comes with a healthy dose of con artist mentality thrown in for seasoning. Plus, she wants a pat on the head for finding and canceling a few of the idiotic subscriptions and gazingus-pin-of-the-month clubs that she signed up for.

Yeah your thread about her is horrifying. It didn't surprise me when forum members started worrying that she might try to actually kill your father.

[DutchGirl]

It's the early 2000s. Boy meets girl. Boy and girl fall in love. Boy and girl marry. Aaaaawwww. Girl has high school diploma, boy has university diploma in IT. They want to have kids. Aaaaawwww. Girl (okay, woman by now) will quit working as a shop assistant because she wants to be a stay-at-home mom, and the father-to-be will probably make the big bucks anyway, right?

They first have a boy, and then a girl. By 2012, they move to a bigger house because their growing family deserves the space, right? The man starts to make more money because he is good at his job. The woman continues to stay home with the kids, even when they're in school for most of the day. The family goes on three holidays per year: one long summer holiday by plane to a hot country to explore (a bit), one autumn holiday by plane to an all-inclusive-resort in a hot country somewhere to just bake and rest, and one winter holiday by plane to an all-inclusive-resort to rest and get some sun. During the summer, the kids are also sent to expensive but fun camps, and they get to stay a week or two with grandma and grandpa, who love them very much.

Meeting them during family celebrations, they talk about their trips, and they discuss possibly investing in a holiday house to rent out and maybe to spend some time in, too. This plan never comes to fruition. They also talk about how well they did buying the bigger house, because it has already increased in value quite nicely. Every five years or so, the husband shows off a nice new car. Additionally, the wife has a cute small car to bring the kids to their sports and hobbies and to get the groceries.

Their boy is in the last year of his studies (while living at home), their girl will start uni after the summer. They decide to support her by buying her a house in the city that she'll live in. Talking to us, they explain that it is hard to find student housing, and particularly student housing of any quality. The girl could temporarily travel to uni until she finds a room, it would probably take 1.5 hours one way, but that's too much, they decide. Besides, she will live there for four to six years and then the parents will sell the house again and probably see a nice profit. The house is bought, and the girl starts her studies.

Then, the big collapse: the couple has been fighting for a while, but now they have one big nasty fight and the husband wants to divorce. Their assets will need to be equally split in two.

The family house is estimated to be worth about 700k, down from 800k the year before because the housing market is cooling down. The house hasn't been sold yet, so maybe it will sell for more... hopefully. Turns out they got a interest-only mortgage, meaning that the 400k loan they took out 10 years ago is still a 400k loan. The house that they just bought for their daughter will probably need to be sold as well. They took out a mortgage for 80% of the value and they took out a personal loan for the other 20% (at 7% interest). They will probably lose 50k on that with all the costs and taxes involved in first buying, getting a mortgage, paying taxes, and then now selling it again (in a cooling market).
The husband apparently didn't put money aside for retirement, although he does have life insurance and disability insurance.

And that's it. They're in their fifties, and each of them will walk away with maybe 200k of assets. The woman is going to be a nurse's aid, part time. The man will hopefully continue to make his big salary for a few more years. Due to local laws, he will need to support his daughter financially until she finishes her studies or until she's 23, whatever happens first. Also, he will need to support his ex-wife financially for five more years.

The ex-wife, meanwhile, plans to buy a new house as soon as she can. After all, renting is throwing away money.

[Dicey]

I can't watch and I can't look away. Ugh.

[Zamboni]

It makes me really sad to read that someone gets to their 50's and hasn't saved for their retirement at all. It's all too common.

That said, $200K each is a lot better than a poke in the eye.

It's not five million dollars, though, so let's not get carried away, and besides would $5MM even be enough?
Greg: “I’m good, anyway,” because Uncle Ewan will “leave me five million anyway, so, I’m golden, baby.”
Connor: “You can’t do anything with five, Greg. Five’s a nightmare. Can’t retire, not worth it to work. Oh yes, five will drive you un poco loco.”
Tom: “Poorest rich person in America. The world’s tallest dwarf.”

Unfortunately the girl and the boy in the story may actually think the ~$200K is a lot of money . . . and of course it is! In a way. But at the same time, in your 50's of course it is not enough to last very long, especially since when they divorce girl doesn't really have another good income stream and even when she reaches retirement age I think the girl is only eligible to draw on half of his social security level.

The boy may hem and haw about "having to shell out all of this money" to his ex but let's be honest: unless he loses his job, he is probably financially fine if he stops being stupid about retirement savings.

The girl, on the other hand, is in a rough situation financially and needs to get serious about becoming fully employed and putting a big percentage of that money away. Nurses aids are in high demand, but CNA's aren't exactly making bank. If she can be patient and rent for a year or three, then the housing market will likely have corrected (depending on where she lives) and she may well be able to get a great deal on a house. Buying now, though? I wouldn't . . . but that gets us back to the title of this thread.

Lol, all of this is probably why my divorce atty tried to hire me as a financial consultant for his female clients (and I am entirely unqualified to be a financial advisor, but apparently he was in awe of my spreadsheets). Long story short: atty thought I'd go for it bc he would pay me equal to my little part time Mom job, which he assured me I could keep in additional to "helping his other clients." But, I knew divorcing meant I'd need to be moving on from my little part time fun gig, and that meant he couldn't afford me.

In any case, I hope boy and girl both figure things out. Divorce sucks all around in the moment, even when the people end up much happier or better off financially in the long run.

[Roadrunner53]

Girl needs to buckle down and work full time! She needs a job some place where they offer a 401K savings plan and dump as much as she can into it. A friend of mine worked at Walmart, didn't make a lot of money but managed to put in the amount to get the company match. Girl definitely needs to talk to someone who can advise her on how to manage the $200K she will get, the money her husband will give her for support for 5 years and needs a kick in the butt and work full time if not one full time job and a part time job on top of that. She has no reason not to. Her kids are grown. She has very little time to save some money and even if she puts her nose to the grindstone, her savings will not be astronomical. No more fancy vacations either. Girl really needs to hold onto every penny she can! Her only salvation is she can get social security later on based on her husbands earnings. Even if she works 15+ years she probably won't get as much SS as she would to claim spousal SS.

[Zamboni]

Just met family members at Panera at their request. Sure, I'll go, I like Panera okay. Haven't been there in ages, so special treat time for me.

While we're waiting in line the family member chimes "we like to come here a lot because it is such a good deal."
"Oh," I say "I always thought Panera is kind of expensive for a quick meal type place."
Family member then assures me that no, it's not expensive, it's a really good deal for them because they both belong to the "bottomless sip club", so they get all their drinks "for free." That's why they eat lunch there at least once a week, she explains. Also, they really like Panera's soup, she says.

I didn't argue with her or even ask follow up questions because it's pointless.

In case you are wondering, I looked it up afterwards and it's $11.99 a month per person for the bottomless sip club, and of course your membership renews perpetually until you turn it off.
So $24 a month. For "free" drinks when they go to lunch at Panera to buy their expensive but undeniably yummy soup.
No doubt their membership in the sip club is the type of thing they consider an "investment."

And they wonder why they can't even balance their budget on paper.
And they wonder why I decline to give them money when they can't pay their bills, which unfortunately has been an issue many times.

[Roadrunner53]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

[ixtap]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Looks like most of the eligible drinks are bottomless with or without the club, the membership just means you don't get charged each visit. The eligible drinks seem to average out to about $3, so at once a week they are coming out ahead by $0.01 a month ..

[Zamboni]

Yeah, that's the math of it.

I think the bigger problem is broke people using the sip club to justify going out to eat regularly.

[ixtap]

My niece's current life plan is to work just enough to support herself while staying under the income limit to repay her loans, then work more when they are forgiven. When she will be in her 50s.

To be fair, her parents are in their late 50s and just starting to think about saving for retirement, and based on their own comments, not doing a very good job of it.

[Metalcat]

Yeah, that's the math of it.

I think the bigger problem is broke people using the sip club to justify going out to eat regularly.

Man...Panera knows their target market...I would think a program like that would make patrons feel like their intelligence is being insulted, but I guess Panera regulars really want to be pushed to go more often.

[BlueHouse]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

[iris lily]

It makes me really sad to read that someone gets to their 50's and hasn't saved for their retirement at all. It's all too common.

That said, $200K each is a lot better than a poke in the eye.

It's not five million dollars, though, so let's not get carried away, and besides would $5MM even be enough?
Greg: “I’m good, anyway,” because Uncle Ewan will “leave me five million anyway, so, I’m golden, baby.”
Connor: “You can’t do anything with five, Greg. Five’s a nightmare. Can’t retire, not worth it to work. Oh yes, five will drive you un poco loco.”
Tom: “Poorest rich person in America. The world’s tallest dwarf.”

Unfortunately the girl and the boy in the story may actually think the ~$200K is a lot of money . . . and of course it is! In a way. But at the same time, in your 50's of course it is not enough to last very long, especially since when they divorce girl doesn't really have another good income stream and even when she reaches retirement age I think the girl is only eligible to draw on half of his social security level.

The boy may hem and haw about "having to shell out all of this money" to his ex but let's be honest: unless he loses his job, he is probably financially fine if he stops being stupid about retirement savings.

The girl, on the other hand, is in a rough situation financially and needs to get serious about becoming fully employed and putting a big percentage of that money away. Nurses aids are in high demand, but CNA's aren't exactly making bank. If she can be patient and rent for a year or three, then the housing market will likely have corrected (depending on where she lives) and she may well be able to get a great deal on a house. Buying now, though? I wouldn't . . . but that gets us back to the title of this thread.

Lol, all of this is probably why my divorce atty tried to hire me as a financial consultant for his female clients (and I am entirely unqualified to be a financial advisor, but apparently he was in awe of my spreadsheets). Long story short: atty thought I'd go for it bc he would pay me equal to my little part time Mom job, which he assured me I could keep in additional to "helping his other clients." But, I knew divorcing meant I'd need to be moving on from my little part time fun gig, and that meant he couldn't afford me.

In any case, I hope boy and girl both figure things out. Divorce sucks all around in the moment, even when the people end up much happier or better off financially in the long run.

I compliment and applaud any reference to Succession.

And Panera soup is crappy, full of salt. Blech.

[Metalcat]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

Wait, is the panera "sip club" for alcoholic drinks or regular drinks?

At $3/bev I assumed they were not alcoholic drinks.

[Villanelle]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

Wait, is the panera "sip club" for alcoholic drinks or regular drinks?

At $3/bev I assumed they were not alcoholic drinks.

Panera (at least the ones I've been too) doesn't sell alcohol.  The brunch mentioned was, I think, a separate conversation from Panera.

I love panera.  I love their broccoli cheddar soup and their bacon turkey bravo sandwich.  It's a special treat in which I occasionally indulge.  Also, due to a very special day we spent together that happened to wind up at Panera for dinner, it's become a special place for my mom and me.  We don't see each other all that often, but we we do, we sometimes end up at Panera because it brings back great memories and we both like having "our place", even it is is a fairly unremarkable fast-casual place.  But I can't imagine gong there weekly.  Also, even if these people go 1/week, their "free" drinks are still costing them about $3.  I just checked and a fountain drink is $3.79.  So they are barely saving anything, and that's before the math on committing to eat out at one specific place, once a week (and not just drink water!). 

[Zamboni]

No booze at my local Panera either. I'm not sure if any of the Panera locations sell booze, but the sip club is lemonade, coffee, tea, and soda. Basically the drinks that cost Panera less to fill the cup than the cost of the cup itself.

Lol, looking again I now see that there is also an option to pay yearly for the sip club at $120. Wow, an EVEN BETTER deal! Because of the amount it reminds me of the $120 a year I pay for a permanent locker at my gym so I can leave my swimming and showering stuff there . . . I should go to the gym more. But at least I don't spend more money every time I go to the gym; the gym is not a spend-to-save proposition for me.

If someone has plenty of extra walking around money, doesn't have financial problems, and wants to join the sip club because they go there daily for coffee and they are going to anyway, then it makes sense to me. There's probably a few people who go to Panera every single day to use the internet. Sure, $12 a month is cheaper than paying for home internet, and Panera has much longer hours than the local library. I can see situations where it makes sense.

For example, there is a little group of elderly retired men who meet up at my local McDonald's on weekday mornings. They all get coffee and share reading the "complimentary" newspaper and chit chat. Sure, it would be cheaper to go to each other's houses, but some people don't like visitors in their house. And, it could be that these men all have wives or family who enjoy having them out of the house, or maybe they just like to have routine, so it gives them a reason to head out and see their friends with a routine. They are paying for the social time in addition to the coffee. When my kids were tots sometimes I'd take them to my local McDonald's at 6-7 am so they could run around and climb in the indoor play area. I was a sleep deprived Zombie and I'd sit there in a stupor with my refillable small drink while the tots had a blast and wore themselves out. Usually I'd buy a McGriddle sandwich, eat the insides, and give each kid one of the McGriddles. After all, it is customary to make a small purchase when using a business's facilities. We probably did that about once a month in winter. The retired group was always there sitting in the same spot away from the play area, and I made sure my kids didn't bother them. Everybody happy.

As long as someone has the money, then I don't see a problem with it at all. But if you are beyond broke and literally panicking because you can't pay to keep your house heated in winter, then justifying $24 a month recurring expense at a local restaurant as your reason it is a good deal to eat there . . . what can I even say about that?

[AlanStache]

I think if Panera is your "best" option for a coffee shop to work within for wifi then you need to be looking at how your life and "community" are structured.  But maybe I have just been watching too much NotJustBikes and living in a people centered neighborhood to long.

What thread was it in here were we were recently discussing how far it took to walk to get a good loaf of bread?  Anyway I forgot there is a Panera a few blocks down.  shrug - not been there in years.   

[Log]

I think if Panera is your "best" option for a coffee shop to work within for wifi then you need to be looking at how your life and "community" are structured.  But maybe I have just been watching too much NotJustBikes and living in a people centered neighborhood to long.

What thread was it in here were we were recently discussing how far it took to walk to get a good loaf of bread?  Anyway I forgot there is a Panera a few blocks down.  shrug - not been there in years.

But those other coffee shops might not offer daily coffee for $120/year. If you really are using Panera as your daily work space, and you're mindful about not using is as an excuse to buy over-priced meals there every day, that is kind of a good deal for a start-up entrepreneur or starving-artist type to have a space away from home to work.

Having that daily routine of getting out of bed and out the door to get your morning coffee has a lot of value if you don't have an externally-imposed structure for your work day, and that certainly beats paying regular price for a coffee, if you're actually using it that often.

Now we're obviously far away from the original example from Zamboni, I'm just saying I can see this deal as a compelling case for going to Panera over a nice local coffee shop, if it's primarily about ritual of getting out of the house to do work.

[Metalcat]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

Wait, is the panera "sip club" for alcoholic drinks or regular drinks?

At $3/bev I assumed they were not alcoholic drinks.

Panera (at least the ones I've been too) doesn't sell alcohol.  The brunch mentioned was, I think, a separate conversation from Panera.

I love panera.  I love their broccoli cheddar soup and their bacon turkey bravo sandwich.  It's a special treat in which I occasionally indulge.  Also, due to a very special day we spent together that happened to wind up at Panera for dinner, it's become a special place for my mom and me.  We don't see each other all that often, but we we do, we sometimes end up at Panera because it brings back great memories and we both like having "our place", even it is is a fairly unremarkable fast-casual place.  But I can't imagine gong there weekly.  Also, even if these people go 1/week, their "free" drinks are still costing them about $3.  I just checked and a fountain drink is $3.79.  So they are barely saving anything, and that's before the math on committing to eat out at one specific place, once a week (and not just drink water!).

It was a response to the question of how many drinks one could consume, so it made me question if the sip club was also including alcoholic drinks.

I've never been to a Panera, so I know nothing.

[Villanelle]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

Wait, is the panera "sip club" for alcoholic drinks or regular drinks?

At $3/bev I assumed they were not alcoholic drinks.

Panera (at least the ones I've been too) doesn't sell alcohol.  The brunch mentioned was, I think, a separate conversation from Panera.

I love panera.  I love their broccoli cheddar soup and their bacon turkey bravo sandwich.  It's a special treat in which I occasionally indulge.  Also, due to a very special day we spent together that happened to wind up at Panera for dinner, it's become a special place for my mom and me.  We don't see each other all that often, but we we do, we sometimes end up at Panera because it brings back great memories and we both like having "our place", even it is is a fairly unremarkable fast-casual place.  But I can't imagine gong there weekly.  Also, even if these people go 1/week, their "free" drinks are still costing them about $3.  I just checked and a fountain drink is $3.79.  So they are barely saving anything, and that's before the math on committing to eat out at one specific place, once a week (and not just drink water!).

It was a response to the question of how many drinks one could consume, so it made me question if the sip club was also including alcoholic drinks.

I've never been to a Panera, so I know nothing.

Imagine a quaint cafe that sells baked goods, coffee beverages, sandwiches and soups.  Then remove most of the personality from it and make it a chain restaurant.  Now you have Panera.

Fun, unrelated fact: I once shit my pants at a Panera lunch with coworkers.  (Had been having bowel issues all morning, and an unexpected sneeze proved too much.) Nothing turns casual work-friends to IRL friends quite like having one run to the nearby Target to buy you a new pair of pants, and everyone agreeing to share the lie that you spilled a drink on your pants at lunch, in order to explain the mid-day wardrobe change.  The lie did not include details on whether that spilled beverage was part of a drink subscription package. 

[Metalcat]

Imagine a quaint cafe that sells baked goods, coffee beverages, sandwiches and soups.  Then remove most of the personality from it and make it a chain restaurant.  Now you have Panera.

Fun, unrelated fact: I once shit my pants at a Panera lunch with coworkers.  (Had been having bowel issues all morning, and an unexpected sneeze proved too much.) Nothing turns casual work-friends to IRL friends quite like having one run to the nearby Target to buy you a new pair of pants, and everyone agreeing to share the lie that you spilled a drink on your pants at lunch, in order to explain the mid-day wardrobe change.  The lie did not include details on whether that spilled beverage was part of a drink subscription package.

I love this story so much.

Also, it sounds like I'm not missing out on much by never having been to a Panera. I'm pretty sure we have one in one of the soulless sectors of my city where I only ever drive through and never stop, but I've always been curious about what the draw is since so many people seem to absolutely rave about it, and obviously there are people who go so often that they have a beverage subscription.

[iris lily]

Here at Panera Central (St. Louis is where it all started) we all affectionally call it “BreadCo” since it started out as “St. Louis bread Company” and was once much better. Turning it into a nationwide chain did the food no service.

I do like their sourdough loaves and so that’s the only reason I go there anymore. Man, that bread is SOUR which I like!

[Just Joe]

Places like Panera serve a purpose for me as a waiting room in the big city.

Once or twice a year (until our teen grew up) I would drop teen and friends at a concert. Then I'd go spend an hour or so at a nearby Panera and then the second hour (or whatever was left) at a specific parking lot where I could sit in the car for free and use the web or watch a downloaded TV show. After the concert, they would walk to me for the ride back to our smallish town.

[RetiredAt63]

It's an upscale Tim's!

[Metalcat]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

[PMG]

I’ll say Panera is one of my preferred choices when interstate traveling. You can get some slightly less fast food options. I only go every couple years so I am always uncomfortably confused with the ordering process.

We’ve also used Panera as a meeting place with difficult relatives (who just don’t get it). We even had a family Christmas there one time. It has a comfy enough vibe, if the visit goes well you can linger a bit, but it’s enough of a chain that it provided some boundaries, if that makes any sense?  Meeting difficult/abusive relatives in a home or at my favorite coffee shop would make me very vulnerable, but meeting at Panera… lets it all blend into the genericness. Of course NOT meeting with them is even better, but it took years of boundary drawing before I was able to flat out refuse.

[charis]

My niece's current life plan is to work just enough to support herself while staying under the income limit to repay her loans, then work more when they are forgiven. When she will be in her 50s.

To be fair, her parents are in their late 50s and just starting to think about saving for retirement, and based on their own comments, not doing a very good job of it.

I think there needs to be more info here.  What is the income limit for the loan forgiveness program and how long does she need to be on it to get forgiveness?  My position is that someone should not intentionally limit their income to achieve forgiveness (ie, turn down/refuse to seek promotion), but frugal folk like myself and others who work in the public sector have been able to save a lot of $$, get forgiveness, and maintain a good income all at the same time.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

I tried their soup ounce and found it very salty, like most commercial food.

Restaurants and packaged food manufacturers tend to add unnecessary salt, grease, and sugar to most foods, to make them "taste better" by appealing to the body's very primitive response to certain chemicals. It exploits a trait that allowed our ancestors to survive during periods of famine by binging on fatty, sweet food that is high in calories but scarce in nature. That's nice for the restaurant (it helps them make money and get repeat customers), but it's physically hard on the customers who aren't genetically designed to withstand that very often.

[ixtap]

My niece's current life plan is to work just enough to support herself while staying under the income limit to repay her loans, then work more when they are forgiven. When she will be in her 50s.

To be fair, her parents are in their late 50s and just starting to think about saving for retirement, and based on their own comments, not doing a very good job of it.

I think there needs to be more info here.  What is the income limit for the loan forgiveness program and how long does she need to be on it to get forgiveness?  My position is that someone should not intentionally limit their income to achieve forgiveness (ie, turn down/refuse to seek promotion), but frugal folk like myself and others who work in the public sector have been able to save a lot of $$, get forgiveness, and maintain a good income all at the same time.

She is basing this plan on the new income based payments with 20 year forgiveness, not the 10 year public sector program.

I doubt she will follow through in the long run; she is also starting to desire a more permanent home. Today's news is that she is talking about getting a permanent job near her grandparents.

[RetiredAt63]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

I'm guessing, never been in one.  But that is what it sounds like.    ;-)

[Metalcat]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

I'm guessing, never been in one.  But that is what it sounds like.    ;-)

Lol, I thought it sounded like a more trendy Olive Garden, although I've never been to one of those either. I base my entire understanding of Olive Garden off of American TV/movies.

[charis]

My niece's current life plan is to work just enough to support herself while staying under the income limit to repay her loans, then work more when they are forgiven. When she will be in her 50s.

To be fair, her parents are in their late 50s and just starting to think about saving for retirement, and based on their own comments, not doing a very good job of it.

I think there needs to be more info here.  What is the income limit for the loan forgiveness program and how long does she need to be on it to get forgiveness?  My position is that someone should not intentionally limit their income to achieve forgiveness (ie, turn down/refuse to seek promotion), but frugal folk like myself and others who work in the public sector have been able to save a lot of $$, get forgiveness, and maintain a good income all at the same time.

She is basing this plan on the new income based payments with 20 year forgiveness, not the 10 year public sector program.

I doubt she will follow through in the long run; she is also starting to desire a more permanent home. Today's news is that she is talking about getting a permanent job near her grandparents.

You don't have be on only the 10 year plan for the forgiveness to pay off, you just have to use it correctly.  I was just referring to public sector because salaries tend to be lower, but folks who live well under their means do very well for themselves.  (Not sure what bearing a permanent home/job has on whether she will follow through.  Aren't most people looking for that?).

[Dollar Slice]

Lol, I thought it sounded like a more trendy Olive Garden, although I've never been to one of those either. I base my entire understanding of Olive Garden off of American TV/movies.

Olive Garden is a chain restaurant with sit-down service trying to be Italian. Panera is fast food with counter service trying to be a cafe.

Neither is approaching "trendy" or "upscale".

[zolotiyeruki]

Lol, I thought it sounded like a more trendy Olive Garden, although I've never been to one of those either. I base my entire understanding of Olive Garden off of American TV/movies.

Olive Garden is a chain restaurant with sit-down service trying to be Italian. Panera is fast food with counter service trying to be a cafe.

Neither is approaching "trendy" or "upscale".

"trendy" and "upscale" probably don't mean a whole lot to people around these forums.  For DW and me, it's all about "how good is the food?" vs "how expensive is it?"  Is Olive Garden authentic (to anything)?  Nah, and we don't care.  It's delicious.  That said, after watching their prices increase by 40% over the last three years, we've moved Olive Garden into our "too expensive except for very special occasions" category.

[Dollar Slice]

"trendy" and "upscale" probably don't mean a whole lot to people around these forums.  For DW and me, it's all about "how good is the food?" vs "how expensive is it?"  Is Olive Garden authentic (to anything)?  Nah, and we don't care.  It's delicious.  That said, after watching their prices increase by 40% over the last three years, we've moved Olive Garden into our "too expensive except for very special occasions" category.

Just trying to describe it to someone who doesn't know what it is, no judgment. I don't really go to sit-down restaurants much at all. I haven't been to an Olive Garden since the 90s. Mostly if I do go out, it's to nicer places since I only go on special occasions (Mom's birthday etc). Not just "it's Friday".

[Villanelle]

I think Panera is a a cafe as starbucks is to a coffee shop.  Like, some effort has been put in to give it a "vibe", but ultimately, it feels commercial.  It's far nicer than a fast food restaurant like Mcdonalds, in service, decor, and food.  You have real plates and flatware.  But you order at a counter and dispense your own fountain drinks and tea.  So it's a step above fast food, but a step down from a waiter-ed sit down place like Olive Garden.  I haven't been to an Olive Garden in a decade or more, but I'm guessing Panera also falls between Olive Garden and McDonald's as far as price, too. 

[ScreamingHeadGuy]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

I'm guessing, never been in one.  But that is what it sounds like.    ;-)

Lol, I thought it sounded like a more trendy Olive Garden, although I've never been to one of those either. I base my entire understanding of Olive Garden off of American TV/movies.

So I can assume a Tim’s is a downscale Panera?

[Metalcat]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

I'm guessing, never been in one.  But that is what it sounds like.    ;-)

Lol, I thought it sounded like a more trendy Olive Garden, although I've never been to one of those either. I base my entire understanding of Olive Garden off of American TV/movies.

So I can assume a Tim’s is a downscale Panera?

Tim's is essentially Canadian Dunkin' Donuts.

[Villanelle]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

I'm guessing, never been in one.  But that is what it sounds like.    ;-)

Lol, I thought it sounded like a more trendy Olive Garden, although I've never been to one of those either. I base my entire understanding of Olive Garden off of American TV/movies.

So I can assume a Tim’s is a downscale Panera?

Tim's is essentially Canadian Dunkin' Donuts.

Oh, *that* Tim's.  In that case, based on the one Tim's I've been to, Panera is a bit more restaurant like, and less coffee/donut shop.  Definitely more of a place where you'd sit down and have a meal (more of a lunch feel than dinner) or even a casual business meeting.   

[iris lily]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

I'm guessing, never been in one.  But that is what it sounds like.    ;-)

Lol, I thought it sounded like a more trendy Olive Garden, although I've never been to one of those either. I base my entire understanding of Olive Garden off of American TV/movies.

Timmy Horton lasted about a year in my neighborhood, probably less. I didn’t go in it. It just didn’t look like anything other than a donut and coffee shop from the outside.

[Metalcat]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

I'm guessing, never been in one.  But that is what it sounds like.    ;-)

Lol, I thought it sounded like a more trendy Olive Garden, although I've never been to one of those either. I base my entire understanding of Olive Garden off of American TV/movies.

Timmy Horton lasted about a year in my neighborhood, probably less. I didn’t go in it. It just didn’t look like anything other than a donut and coffee shop from the outside.

Cuz it isn't.

There's absolutely nothing special about Tim Hortons other than really effective Canadiana advertising.

[Sibley]

Every region has their very much overhyped, mediocre food/beverage dispensary. Tim Hortons, Starbucks, Peat's Coffee, In-and-Out, Buckee's (gas station but has food). You get the idea. If someone wants to be overly obsessed, that's their choice. Only good thing is they tend to not be disgusting and to have a certain level of uniformity, so you know what you're getting.

[Apples]

I love Panera lol.  I got twice a month for my knitting group, we all have dinner then sit and work on our projects together for 2 hours.  It's great.  And they have a wide menu with decent food that's a step above a fast food place, and we don't want a place with a waiter because that would make the knitting awkward.  It's also a good place for a casual meeting, catching up with a friend or relative you don't see much, etc. 

[Dave1442397]

I like Panera too, but haven't been there since 2018. I used to go to conferences at the Hyatt in Reston, VA, and there's a Panera on site. The cinnamon bagels were delicious, and my lunch option was the Turkey Bravo sandwich.

Luckily the hotel is right next to the Washington and Old Dominion Trail, so I could go for a nice 50-mile bike ride to work off the bagels.

Fun fact, the elevation profile for the ride looks like Batman :)

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I heard that there's a second trial because Panera's hyper-caffeinated bottomless energy drinks keep killing people.

[getsorted]

I am from the part of the country where half of us still call Panera "Breadco" or "St. Louis Bread." I haven't actually eaten there in years, but I don't think I've attended a single breakfast business meeting that didn't have a box of their bagels in just as many years. I think their business model depends on 1. group orders that are just shy of catering level and 2. the fact that if you had to go there in a business suit, you wouldn't feel too incongruous?

As far as the food... Everything there is so salty, and their coffee... hard no from me.

[Just Joe]

I've found much of the big name coffee to be a big no. McDonald's and Tim's and Dunkin, etc. It seems "off" for one reason or another. However I'll buy food or coffee once or twice in a year when I travel for work with other people. I'll go along with the group.

Would rather have coffee we brew at home with beans from the grocery store.

[Villanelle]

Thanks to this thread, I really want Panera.  Damnit. 

[midweststache]

I've found much of the big name coffee to be a big no. McDonald's and Tim's and Dunkin, etc. It seems "off" for one reason or another. However I'll buy food or coffee once or twice in a year when I travel for work with other people. I'll go along with the group.

Would rather have coffee we brew at home with beans from the grocery store.

Agreed. I had to go into the office last week, and I left my carafe of coffee on the counter. I'm sitting on the train wondering why I'm so tired. Of course! I forgot my coffee! Due to a rampant caffeine addiction (I know.) I recognize I need coffee if I'm going to make it through my day sans caffeine-withdrawl-migraine. I stop in the Starbucks in my building lobby for a medium coffee. $4.04 for drip coffee, and it was awful. I much prefer brewing it at home, at the strength I want with whatever level of milk I'm craving that AM.

My parents have two coffee makers - a drip carafe and a Keriug - and they are still members of this Panera Coffee Club thing. (I think my mom does a weekly breakfast there with some other retired ladies, so maybe she thought it was a good idea for that?) But like, she'll drive to my sister's to watch the her kiddos and pick up a coffee from Panera on the way... when she has TWO perfectly good coffee makers that can make coffee to go in far less time than it takes for her to go to Panera, wait in the drive-through, and get a mediocre coffee. I just... ugh. Is it a conspicuous consumption thing if the only person seeing you consume it is not even 2?

The unfortunate thing is, I can chart my "let's just get dinner out" impetus - which is our big budget hole and has been for years - from this drive-through mentality in my upbringing. I'm still battling it and trying to train/organize myself around cooking and eating at home.