Relatives who just don't get it

[chaskavitch]

A fellow I worked with taught me this many decades ago and it stuck with me because it's universally applicable.

It's The Wendelken Law of Pain Management.

The Law applies whenever there is a long running problem between people or groups of people.  If simple niceness hasn't already solved the problem, it's because those who cause the pain don't care and they are not those who feel the pain.   The way to solve the problem is to transfer the pain back to the person who caused it.     

Swordguy, this is well said. I couldn't find anything on The Wendelken Law of Pain Management by searching the intertubes. Is the name just something you based on your friend or is it more formal?

He came up with it so he gets the credit.   And he came up with it long before there was an internet for the general public to use, so it's not surprising it didn't get famous.

It took me a long time to figure this one out on my own, and have a few relatives that eventually needed some Wendelken Pain Management. I shall do my part to make his law known more widely!

He also played a fair bit of cards in the student center in college (Spades primarily) and was a very good card player but with bad card luck.    His friends named a hand after him, the Wendelken Hand.   It was the 2, 3, 4 and 5 of diamonds, hearts and clubs, and the King of spades when his partner didn't have the Ace.     Couldn't take a trick unless he bid that he would take none, and then was pretty much guaranteed to be forced to take one.

That is just such a terrible hand.  Wow.  Yeah, there's not much you can do with that at all.

[Sugaree]

Uncle Dumbass is at it again.  When we last left off, he had screwed up his taxes somehow (my guess is that he "forgot" that he sold a house) and owed the IRS a pile of money.  He just got word that the K-1 for his "fiancé" has been approved so she and her kids will be here soon.  My mother has been terrified that she will be asked to be a joint sponsor in the event that her brother is unable to work anymore (he's 67 and has been doing the travel nurse thing since retiring from his permanent hospital).  I'm hoping that now that the K-1 has been approved that this is no longer a possibility because while I'm pretty sure dad wouldn't let her do anything stupid, it doesn't mean her brother wouldn't try something sneaky.

[Mighty Eyebrows]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

[Monerexia]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

[ysette9]

She is the type of person you have to be blunt towards

Sometimes I worry I am this type of person, and I am very grateful when people spell things out for me instead of trying to be subtle for the sake of politeness. Clarity of communication is precious.

Me three. If I had a dollar for every time I said, "But that's not what I meant!" I'd be FIRE. Oh, wait a minute...

Wouldn’t the world be a lot nicer if people were more direct instead of wrapping it up in a lot of politness and diluting the message. And yes there is a difference between being rude and spelling things out.

I had a former boss like this. He prided himself in being “diplomatic” and said so several times. The problem was, he was so diplomatic he couldn’t just come out and say what he thought. So every conversation took 3x as long as it should and required me to interpret his examples, parrot back to him “so I am hearing that you are trying to say X”, have him say “not quite”, and then sit through another round of stories and examples for me to decipher. It was exhausting and I never knew where I stood with him.

[sonofsven]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

[Monerexia]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

[DadJokes]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

[ducky19]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

+1 (x1000).

[solon]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

It sounds like the niece might be petty enough that, if she learned that, she might contest the will and make life horrible for the legit heirs.

[Monerexia]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

It sounds like the niece might be petty enough that, if she learned that, she might contest the will and make life horrible for the legit heirs.

Yes. Best route for me is complete and total radio silence under all circumstances. Anybody who would do that: borrow money from their uncle (which is strange in itself; I never did that and I was very, very broke at times. It never even occurred to me), string them along and then ghost them, just not respond. In the penultimate text I asked them to pay $50/month, which is $1.67/day, or $.55/day for each of the three of them. No response. The last text, weeks later, was asking my niece to please contact me and set up a payment plan that works for her, as she had promised. The End.

[Tigerpine]

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

It sounds like the niece might be petty enough that, if she learned that, she might contest the will and make life horrible for the legit heirs.

Yes. Best route for me is complete and total radio silence under all circumstances. Anybody who would do that: borrow money from their uncle (which is strange in itself; I never did that and I was very, very broke at times. It never even occurred to me), string them along and then ghost them, just not respond. In the penultimate text I asked them to pay $50/month, which is $1.67/day, or $.55/day for each of the three of them. No response. The last text, weeks later, was asking my niece to please contact me and set up a payment plan that works for her, as she had promised. The End.

You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.

[zolotiyeruki]

You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.

I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.

[SwordGuy]

You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.

I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.

Bound to be a dried dog turd lying about that you can store in some tupperware you would otherwise throw away.   

"Niece:  I bequeath this tupperwared dog turd in memory of the $2,500 loan I gave you; and that you stiffed me on.   Enjoy it with my best wishes.  After much thoughtful deliberation, I can't think a a niece who deserves it more."

There, you're being inclusive.   And giving.   And very clear on your intent.  :)

[NumberJohnny5]

What "I" would love to do in such a situation, is to have it worded so the niece thinks she's getting a rather large portion of the pie. Make it look like a pretty even split too, i.e. person A gets $120k, person B gets $120k, person C gets $120k, niece gets $120k, whatever is left goes to charity. But then the will goes into how each amount is reduced; only the niece has an unpaid loan of $2,500, which after interest, late fees, mega late fees, much higher interest rate after going into default, all compounded over X years, now has an amount owed of...$125k. The $120k amount that has been willed to the niece can be applied to the amount owed by the niece, and any remaining amount will either be paid to the niece (if there was any left over) or forgiven (if there was none left over...and there will of course be none left over). The idea is to make it look like this was the original wording in an old, and occasionally updated will. This way the niece will realize that if she had paid back the $2,500, she would have gotten a BIG payday.

But of course this will just cause the will to be contested, and the others in the will having to wait to get their rightful inheritance (which will end up being reduced by legal fees...and possibly by a buyout to get niece to sign-off and release the funds). So, absolutely don't do this. Heck, I'd be leery of even something like "and to niece I forgive the $2,500 loan I gave her plus all the late fees and interest it had accrued over all these years" because all she has to do is say "oh, I paid, here's proof, so now give me the $2,500 plus late fees and interest it accrued over all these years." I'd just bequeath something neutral, like the Mainstays Dinnerware set she enjoyed at Thanksgiving or the Timex Atomic wall clock she seemed to like so much whenever she visited.

[Adventine]

You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.

I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.

Bound to be a dried dog turd lying about that you can store in some tupperware you would otherwise throw away.   

"Niece:  I bequeath this tupperwared dog turd in memory of the $2,500 loan I gave you; and that you stiffed me on.   Enjoy it with my best wishes.  After much thoughtful deliberation, I can't think a a niece who deserves it more."

There, you're being inclusive.   And giving.   And very clear on your intent.  :)

Fiendishly clever plan!

[Mighty Eyebrows]

I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.

I am sure it varies by legal jurisdiction, but I would be surprised if a niece would have any legal standing to challenge a will. Spouse(s) and children would obviously have much more ability to challenge. However, if anyone has examples contradicting my assumption, I would be very interested.

[DadJokes]

On the phone with my 55 y.o. father yesterday:

Him: I got a new truck! Well, new-to-me truck. It's a 2015 Sierra
Me: I'm glad you went down the used route. What was wrong with your old vehicle?
Him: It started having some mechanical issues, so I decided to get a new one rather than deal with the hassle.
Me: ...
Him: We just paid off my wife's car in November, so all we did was trade a payment for a payment.
Me: O...kay? How long is the loan?
Him: 72 months. Our only debts now are the truck, the mortgage, and a home improvement loan (rolled into mortgage).
Me: I guess that's not too bad.
Him: Oh, and the 401(k) loan I took out to pay off the credit cards last year, but that's almost paid off.

Follow up!

Him: Did I tell you I got a new motorcycle?
Me: No...Didn't you just get a truck a couple weeks ago?
My wife overhearing: Be nice
Him: Yeah
Me: And aren't you also planning to get an RV?
Him: We're not getting the RV anytime soon. That's more of a retirement plan.
Me: And when is that going to be?
Him: Well, one of my co-workers is still working at 69, and I think I'll have him beat.

That means my father, who is a truck driver for an oil company, plans to be working for another 14 years at a minimum. As such, I should in fact retire before my own father. He went on to say that he makes about $115k per year, which is more than our household income, and he lives in an extremely low cost of living area.

During our weekly phone call last night, I learned that he expects to be reduced to a 40 hour limit, which would effectively reduce his pay by half. He's already looking into getting a deferment on his truck loan.

The saga continues!

As previously mentioned, my father got a new motorcycle sometime around January/February. He had a motorcycle previously that hadn't run in years (2005 touring bike with ~100k miles). He decided to give the old bike to my step-sister's fiance (we'll just call him Jon). Jon was supposed to get the bike fixed, get a motorcycle license, get the bike registered in his name, and get the bike insured.

Instead, Jon got the bike fixed and was riding the bike without a license, uninsured, and with expired registration still in my father's name. Jon is a pilot, so you'd think that he has some common sense, but apparently that's not the case. While taking a curve too fast, he drifted out of his lane and hit a pickup.

Jon miraculously didn't die, though he has a handful of broken bones and a lot of road rash. However, now we have to wonder how this is all going to play out financially. The pickup will probably be written off as totaled, and I'm sure this could come back on my father, as the bike was still legally his property. Jon can probably afford to pay for the pickup with his income, but who knows what else is going to come of this?

I don't know why, but it just seems that people who make bad decisions with money have more bad things happen to them. This is just one of those things. It's certainly more Jon's fault than my father's, but my father has already put himself in a hole from previous mistakes.

My father is the story that just keeps giving.

He rode his motorcycle halfway across the country to see us for a couple days, so I got to spend some time talking...well, listening. I try to bite my tongue to keep the wife happy.

I was under the impression that the RV (see bold above) was supposed to be part of his eventual retirement plan. Now he is planning on getting it next year. In fact, it's actually the reason he got his truck, apparently. So that'll be a truck, motorcycle, and RV all within a couple years.

But wait, there's more!

He's also planning on expanding his front porch, despite the facts that: 1) he already has a back porch, and 2) the wind in West Texas makes being in front of the house unpleasant fairly often, while the back porch is shielded from wind by the house. His reasoning? On the back porch, their view is just the fence. If they had a porch in front of the house, they would have a view of...fields, which are dirt most of the year anyway.

Update!

My father called me a few days ago and told me that he has a buyer for the RV. Since he only bought it nine months or so ago, I was surprised and asked why. "Because we don't have time to use it." Yeah, because you're so busy working to make all of your payments.

But hey, he already has a buyer, and he's selling the RV for more than he paid (at least up front - I'm sure they've sunk money into it in the past nine months that he isn't accounting for). The buyer even sent a check for earnest money, and for some reason he sent more than he said he would...

If you're familiar with buying and selling on Craigslist, then you probably know where this is going.

A couple days later, the buyer contacts my father and asks if my father can refund the extra portion of the earnest money that was sent by mistake. Yeah, just send a money order for the extra few thousand dollars.

Thankfully, my father realized that something was off by then. He asked the bank to hold the check and let him know whether or not it clears and is not sending anything back.

My father still holds out hope that it's not a scam and that the buyer will be by to inspect the RV in the next couple days. However, the RV that he hoped was sold is now not sold.

[Dogastrophe]

A couple days later, the buyer contacts my father and asks if my father can refund the extra portion of the earnest money that was sent by mistake. Yeah, just send a money order for the extra few thousand dollars.

Thankfully, my father realized that something was off by then. He asked the bank to hold the check and let him know whether or not it clears and is not sending anything back.

My father still holds out hope that it's not a scam and that the buyer will be by to inspect the RV in the next couple days. However, the RV that he hoped was sold is now not sold.

Yup, it's likely that today's message will be that the buyer is stationed overseas in Scamastan and not able to come by and pick up the RV but he has contracted Scam Bros Movers to pick it up for him.

[Sugaree]

Apparently my brother and his wife are moving back in with my parents in order to pay off some debt.  I'll admit to being curious as to how they were holding everything together, but I didn't think it was this bad.  My suspicion is that his new promotion is not being held up because they can't find someone to replace him at his old position, but that there is an issue with his credit.  Hopefully, this will be the kick in the ass they need to get it together.

Update:  This has not been the kick in the ass that they needed.  When they moved in with mom and dad, they brought a roommate with them.  So my parents have three extra adults and four extra dogs living with them now.  The debt situation is much, much worse than first thought.  And instead of using their stimulus check to pay things down....they bought a trailer to haul their kayaks.

[Just Joe]

Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

[Sugaree]

Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

Pretty much.  Much more than I would have had. 

[SunnyDays]

Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

[Metalcat]

Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

[Sugaree]

Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

The way I understand it, the roommate is the only one paying rent.

[AlanStache]

Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

The way I understand it, the roommate is the only one paying rent.

Or they all are in a three way relationship. 

[Sugaree]

Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

The way I understand it, the roommate is the only one paying rent.

Or they all are in a three way relationship.

Well, that's definitely a possibility that I hadn't considered.  And one that requires a gallon of mental bleach.

[Just Joe]

Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

The way I understand it, the roommate is the only one paying rent.

Or they all are in a three way relationship.

Honestly that I had that idea too. Sorry Sugaree.

[Tinker]

You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.

I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.

i think 2500$ sounds about right in this instance

[UpNAtom]

You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.

I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.

i think 2500$ sounds about right in this instance

If I was feeling particularly evil at the time, I would be asking my lawyer if I could add the debt to the estate: to my estate, in addition to my accounts that shall ever so graciously be split among my favourites, do remember that niece dearest owes $2500.  I leave a gift of forgiveness of copious amounts of interest and fees over the years.  The estate may choose to forgive or pursue the $2500 with my blessing.   

[brandon4454]

I was visiting my brother's family, my mother, and my girlfriend for Easter. My brother and his wife make around $200k, but spend every dime on cars, vacations, and their large house. I have a small 1950's house that is brick with wood floor that I bought a year ago for $60k. My brothers wife says I am the cheapest person she has ever met. Before I can reply my mother who owes $10k in credit card debt says I need to enjoy my money and my life a little more.

I live far from a spartan lifestyle. I took three vacations this year to a state park, the grand canyon, and to see them for easter. My brother and his wife are looking to retire in the next 10 years. I'm much younger and tell them congratulations and that I should be retiring the same time. I don't think they will ever be able to retire. I got a text yesterday that they were in my area on their way to the beach...again.

[partgypsy]

Honestly one of my dream type houses are 1950s brick ranches. Low maintenance, but still roomy enough, cozy and simple.  My lil brother once owned one and I loved it.

[Uturn]

Before I can reply my mother who owes $10k in credit card debt says I need to enjoy my money and my life a little more.

I have a family member who used to call me cheap and tell me I need to treat myself.  I finally got fed up and said, "you know what's a treat?  I am debt free and have a year's worth of expenses in the bank.  That means no company, boss, bill collector, or layoff list has any power over me."  We never had a treat yourself conversation again. 

[Adventine]

Before I can reply my mother who owes $10k in credit card debt says I need to enjoy my money and my life a little more.

I have a family member who used to call me cheap and tell me I need to treat myself.  I finally got fed up and said, "you know what's a treat?  I am debt free and have a year's worth of expenses in the bank.  That means no company, boss, bill collector, or layoff list has any power over me."  We never had a treat yourself conversation again.

I like it, I like it!

[Sandi_k]

Oooof. Just got word that a family member just got laid off. The only earner for a family of 5, and they have a BIG lifestyle.

They hit the wall in 2009, lost a job, and had to move cross-country for another, and negotiate a short sale of their house. I had hoped they had learned from that experience...

Nope. Exactly the same circumstances this time, but now they have three teenagers. The only ray of light is that they are done with the big renovation/expansion project on their house, and they are not upside down. So if they do sell, they'll have a stash, instead of debt....

So yeah - FI really matters. I've been slow, and conservative, and careful. But here I am, able to retire if I have to, and I will never have had the big swings in income and circumstance. For which I am very grateful.

[ysette9]

My husband has an older sister and an older brother, each of whom has a child. A couple
Of years before starting our own family we offered each of them to open up a 529 for their kids. One said yes and then never followed up with providing their kid’s SSN to be named beneficiary. The second shared some stuff about not wanting to reduce possible student aid eligibility in the future and preferred to be given cash to keep under the mattress. Which of course we did not agree to. So neither of them took us up on our offer.

We now have three sprogs of our own so are busy with their 529s.

[partgypsy]

My husband has an older sister and an older brother, each of whom has a child. A couple
Of years before starting our own family we offered each of them to open up a 529 for their kids. One said yes and then never followed up with providing their kid’s SSN to be named beneficiary. The second shared some stuff about not wanting to reduce possible student aid eligibility in the future and preferred to be given cash to keep under the mattress. Which of course we did not agree to. So neither of them took us up on our offer.

We now have three sprogs of our own so are busy with their 529s.

that was very nice of you. Otoh I had 529s opened for both kids, shared the info with the grandparents the account info, how to contribute. Also when asked "what should I get for xmas, etc?" Grandparents (or other relatives) never contributed directly, main reasons being "it's boring" "I want them to have something they can open up", etc. Sigh. When the kids got older I did give them the option that if they took bday money etc and put it in their 529, I would match it, so that's what we did instead.

[charis]

My husband has an older sister and an older brother, each of whom has a child. A couple
Of years before starting our own family we offered each of them to open up a 529 for their kids. One said yes and then never followed up with providing their kid’s SSN to be named beneficiary. The second shared some stuff about not wanting to reduce possible student aid eligibility in the future and preferred to be given cash to keep under the mattress. Which of course we did not agree to. So neither of them took us up on our offer.

We now have three sprogs of our own so are busy with their 529s.

that was very nice of you. Otoh I had 529s opened for both kids, shared the info with the grandparents the account info, how to contribute. Also when asked "what should I get for xmas, etc?" Grandparents (or other relatives)  contributed directly, main reasons being "it's boring" "I want them to have something they can open up", etc. Sigh. When the kids got older I did give them the option that if they took bday money etc and put it in their 529, I would match it, so that's what we did instead.

My parents offered to open up an education account for our children and we declined, but offered that they could contribute to the accounts that we had established. My parents have a history of trying to manipulate relationships with money and I want no part of that.  I also did not want them to have the kids SS#s because they make questionable financial decisions and routinely have computer security breaches.

[rockstache]

My husband has an older sister and an older brother, each of whom has a child. A couple
Of years before starting our own family we offered each of them to open up a 529 for their kids. One said yes and then never followed up with providing their kid’s SSN to be named beneficiary. The second shared some stuff about not wanting to reduce possible student aid eligibility in the future and preferred to be given cash to keep under the mattress. Which of course we did not agree to. So neither of them took us up on our offer.

We now have three sprogs of our own so are busy with their 529s.

that was very nice of you. Otoh I had 529s opened for both kids, shared the info with the grandparents the account info, how to contribute. Also when asked "what should I get for xmas, etc?" Grandparents (or other relatives)  contributed directly, main reasons being "it's boring" "I want them to have something they can open up", etc. Sigh. When the kids got older I did give them the option that if they took bday money etc and put it in their 529, I would match it, so that's what we did instead.

My parents offered to open up an education account for our children and we declined, but offered that they could contribute to the accounts that we had established. My parents have a history of trying to manipulate relationships with money and I want no part of that.  I also did not want them to have the kids SS#s because they make questionable financial decisions and routinely have computer security breaches.

We did this with my in laws. They were not happy that we wouldn’t give them the kids socials but oh well. As a parent, it’s my job to protect them and I feel like that includes their identity, at least to the best of my ability. They won’t contribute to the 529 we set up because they want control of it. Lol nope.

[partgypsy]

I meant to say, never contributed directly. To contribute they didn't need the social, just the name and account number. But never took us up on it.
I don't think any of the grandparents would have done anything bad with social security numbers or been untrustworthy in that way.

[rockstache]

I meant to say, never contributed directly. To contribute they didn't need the social, just the name and account number. But never took us up on it.
I don't think any of the grandparents would have done anything bad with social security numbers or been untrustworthy in that way.

Ours wouldn’t steal it directly, but they’re rather careless with leaving paperwork around/out in the open. One relative with a known drug problem has open access to their house, so....no. Once the SSN is given away there’s no getting it back.

[ender]

Can't 529s be transferred to someone else anyways?

Why not tell grandparents to put the 529 in their name and then transfer it to the kiddo when they are college age?

[SwordGuy]

Can't 529s be transferred to someone else anyways?

Why not tell grandparents to put the 529 in their name and then transfer it to the kiddo when they are college age?

It may be a control thing.    Some people would use it to blackmail the kids into doing what they want instead of what the kid wants.

[iluvzbeach]

I meant to say, never contributed directly. To contribute they didn't need the social, just the name and account number. But never took us up on it.
I don't think any of the grandparents would have done anything bad with social security numbers or been untrustworthy in that way.

Ours wouldn’t steal it directly, but they’re rather careless with leaving paperwork around/out in the open. One relative with a known drug problem has open access to their house, so....no. Once the SSN is given away there’s no getting it back.

I help my mother manage her finances and several years back she emailed (!!!) me a Word document that she used to track all of her website logins, passwords, secret questions & answers, etc. Not only was I horrified she maintained the data in this format & sent it by email, but even moreso when I found she had all of MY personal identifying data recorded on it, including my SSN. At some point she’d probably asked for my SSN to list me as a beneficiary on one of her accounts, never did I dream she’d record it in a Word doc and send it via email. Facepalm.

I realize my SSN is in all sorts of places that anyone who really wants to find it can get to it, but I never thought my own parent would (innocently) be so careless with it. I totally understand others’ decision not to share their own children’s SSNs with family members.

[charis]

I meant to say, never contributed directly. To contribute they didn't need the social, just the name and account number. But never took us up on it.
I don't think any of the grandparents would have done anything bad with social security numbers or been untrustworthy in that way.

Ours wouldn’t steal it directly, but they’re rather careless with leaving paperwork around/out in the open. One relative with a known drug problem has open access to their house, so....no. Once the SSN is given away there’s no getting it back.

Same here (a sibling's boyfriend who had free access to the house was the problem).  I meant to reply to the other poster who said that their relatives turned down their offer of a 529.  I am not clear what the implication was (it seemed like a criticism of the relatives).  I think it's somewhat reasonable that they might not be comfortable with the idea, for a variety of reasons.

[ysette9]

Can't 529s be transferred to someone else anyways?

Why not tell grandparents to put the 529 in their name and then transfer it to the kiddo when they are college age?

I believe you lose some of the tax benefits when you pass a 529 down two generations like that.

[BFive55]

My brother has been living in a ~2400 square foot house for ~4 years.  About a year and half ago he got married.  They just announced they're moving into a 3800 square foot house.  He's an engineer, and she will be when she graduates, so they can afford it, but I just don't understand.  When he got the 2400 sqft house, he had two or three good friends move in with him, so it didn't seem so bad.  Our dad retired early, so it's not like the idea is alien to him. 

I just want to ask WHHHHHHHHYYYYY?  Everything was finalized before I learned about it, so there's not much point in having a conversation about it.  I wish them the best.  It's just my brain hurts when I think about it.

My house is about 1,200-1,300 square feet, can't recall exactly. But where I am it was cheaper to buy a home than continue to rent an apartment in any decent building. My rent for my last apartment was like $400 more a month than my house in an apartment building I would rate as "nice" but hardly luxury. Even mid-tier apartments here would be upwards of $1,200-$1,400 a month.

Maybe your brother and his wife are planning on having a few kids and want to buy now when the rates are good? It could be a good long term decision even if it doesn't make sense right now. Is housing in demand there? Or it is a hot market?

[Imma]

My brother has been living in a ~2400 square foot house for ~4 years.  About a year and half ago he got married.  They just announced they're moving into a 3800 square foot house.  He's an engineer, and she will be when she graduates, so they can afford it, but I just don't understand.  When he got the 2400 sqft house, he had two or three good friends move in with him, so it didn't seem so bad.  Our dad retired early, so it's not like the idea is alien to him. 

I just want to ask WHHHHHHHHYYYYY?  Everything was finalized before I learned about it, so there's not much point in having a conversation about it.  I wish them the best.  It's just my brain hurts when I think about it.

My house is about 1,200-1,300 square feet, can't recall exactly. But where I am it was cheaper to buy a home than continue to rent an apartment in any decent building. My rent for my last apartment was like $400 more a month than my house in an apartment building I would rate as "nice" but hardly luxury. Even mid-tier apartments here would be upwards of $1,200-$1,400 a month.

Maybe your brother and his wife are planning on having a few kids and want to buy now when the rates are good? It could be a good long term decision even if it doesn't make sense right now. Is housing in demand there? Or it is a hot market?

Well, sure, but we are mustachians. If the brother lives in a 2400 square ft. house right now, that's already a large family home. 3800 square ft is just insanely big, unless they're planning to have 10 kids that house is just unmustachian.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

My brother has been living in a ~2400 square foot house for ~4 years.  About a year and half ago he got married.  They just announced they're moving into a 3800 square foot house.  He's an engineer, and she will be when she graduates, so they can afford it, but I just don't understand.  When he got the 2400 sqft house, he had two or three good friends move in with him, so it didn't seem so bad.  Our dad retired early, so it's not like the idea is alien to him. 

I just want to ask WHHHHHHHHYYYYY?  Everything was finalized before I learned about it, so there's not much point in having a conversation about it.  I wish them the best.  It's just my brain hurts when I think about it.

My house is about 1,200-1,300 square feet, can't recall exactly. But where I am it was cheaper to buy a home than continue to rent an apartment in any decent building. My rent for my last apartment was like $400 more a month than my house in an apartment building I would rate as "nice" but hardly luxury. Even mid-tier apartments here would be upwards of $1,200-$1,400 a month.

Maybe your brother and his wife are planning on having a few kids and want to buy now when the rates are good? It could be a good long term decision even if it doesn't make sense right now. Is housing in demand there? Or it is a hot market?

Well, sure, but we are mustachians. If the brother lives in a 2400 square ft. house right now, that's already a large family home. 3800 square ft is just insanely big, unless they're planning to have 10 kids that house is just unmustachian.

On the one hand, yes, there is no justification for it. On the other hand, my grandmother lives alone in a house that is larger than that and... it doesn't make sense, but she can afford it and for now she is able to take care of herself there. I have an aunt who also lives alone in an enormous house, but she has 7 grown children plus their spouses and kids and maybe she wants to have room for lots of visitors? I dunno. Some people choose to spend their money in ways that seem odd to me.

[Imma]

My brother has been living in a ~2400 square foot house for ~4 years.  About a year and half ago he got married.  They just announced they're moving into a 3800 square foot house.  He's an engineer, and she will be when she graduates, so they can afford it, but I just don't understand.  When he got the 2400 sqft house, he had two or three good friends move in with him, so it didn't seem so bad.  Our dad retired early, so it's not like the idea is alien to him. 

I just want to ask WHHHHHHHHYYYYY?  Everything was finalized before I learned about it, so there's not much point in having a conversation about it.  I wish them the best.  It's just my brain hurts when I think about it.

My house is about 1,200-1,300 square feet, can't recall exactly. But where I am it was cheaper to buy a home than continue to rent an apartment in any decent building. My rent for my last apartment was like $400 more a month than my house in an apartment building I would rate as "nice" but hardly luxury. Even mid-tier apartments here would be upwards of $1,200-$1,400 a month.

Maybe your brother and his wife are planning on having a few kids and want to buy now when the rates are good? It could be a good long term decision even if it doesn't make sense right now. Is housing in demand there? Or it is a hot market?

Well, sure, but we are mustachians. If the brother lives in a 2400 square ft. house right now, that's already a large family home. 3800 square ft is just insanely big, unless they're planning to have 10 kids that house is just unmustachian.

On the one hand, yes, there is no justification for it. On the other hand, my grandmother lives alone in a house that is larger than that and... it doesn't make sense, but she can afford it and for now she is able to take care of herself there. I have an aunt who also lives alone in an enormous house, but she has 7 grown children plus their spouses and kids and maybe she wants to have room for lots of visitors? I dunno. Some people choose to spend their money in ways that seem odd to me.

Being from urban Europe, I don't think I've ever even been in a house that big. There are 10 homes 3800 square ft or bigger for sale in my city and there are several million € homes. They look like castles to me.

Sure, if people can afford it and can look after themselves and the property, it's their choice and good luck to them. It just feels like a colossal waste of space and resources to build, maintain, heat etc a house like that.