Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3522946 times)

Apples

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6100 on: January 06, 2021, 08:59:49 AM »
To those who rationalize the "split expenses with separate incomes" strategy - why don't you view yourselves as a household that makes joint decisions, and then you each get a set amount of spending money to do whatever with?  If the higher earner's job requires living in a HCOLA, then that severely disadvantages the lower earner (this exact situation happened with a friend of mine).  Partner1 is an aerospace engineer, and lives in and around major cities, because that's where big airports are.  Partner2 had online work that could be done anywhere, but had no bump for living in a HCOLA.  Keeping their incomes separate was deeply unfair, in my opinion, to Parter2.  Another friend couple has PartnerA in the military, so while they get pay bumps/decreases based on where they live, PartnerB has to reapply for jobs in the new area, and has has more and less success depending on where they live.  Again, another situation where splitting expenses evenly is unfair to the second partner.

Finally, relationships and marriage are mini socialism.  You take care of each other.  What would you do, income and budget-wise, if one person is out of work for 6 months? A year?  Got Covid and is in the hospital for a month?  The split arrangement doesn't accommodate those much.

sherr

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6101 on: January 06, 2021, 09:13:19 AM »
To those who rationalize the "split expenses with separate incomes" strategy - why don't you view yourselves as a household that makes joint decisions, and then you each get a set amount of spending money to do whatever with?

So my wife and I do have combined finances, and I agree with you as to the specific examples you gave. But people are free to work out their own relationships as they wish to, I'm not going to prescribe to them that they must do it my way. Split finances can also help in a number of situations, such as when one spouse is much spender than the other. It's a lot easier to not feel resentful about that if they're merely spending "their money" and you're saving "your money". Pooling it and giving allowances merely invites arguments about how big the allowances should be to some people.

Zikoris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6102 on: January 06, 2021, 09:24:29 AM »
To those who rationalize the "split expenses with separate incomes" strategy - why don't you view yourselves as a household that makes joint decisions, and then you each get a set amount of spending money to do whatever with?  If the higher earner's job requires living in a HCOLA, then that severely disadvantages the lower earner (this exact situation happened with a friend of mine).  Partner1 is an aerospace engineer, and lives in and around major cities, because that's where big airports are.  Partner2 had online work that could be done anywhere, but had no bump for living in a HCOLA.  Keeping their incomes separate was deeply unfair, in my opinion, to Parter2.  Another friend couple has PartnerA in the military, so while they get pay bumps/decreases based on where they live, PartnerB has to reapply for jobs in the new area, and has has more and less success depending on where they live.  Again, another situation where splitting expenses evenly is unfair to the second partner.

Finally, relationships and marriage are mini socialism.  You take care of each other.  What would you do, income and budget-wise, if one person is out of work for 6 months? A year?  Got Covid and is in the hospital for a month?  The split arrangement doesn't accommodate those much.

Because to people like us, that's just really unappealing and we have no desire to do so? I personally don't believe in having "spending money". It's not how I operate. Some people, like me, just have a personality type where they need total autonomy in such regards, and the idea of joint finances is really repulsive.

Now, for how I'd handle each of those situations.

There's no such thing as HCOL in my opinion. Any city you look at, you'll have people spending at all different levels. I've lived very cheaply in the most expensive city in Canada for most of my adult life. So for the first situation, I would say just find a way to live cheaply in the so-called HCOL place, that's no problem.

If I was going to be moving a lot for the sake of a partner, I would steer my job path towards remote work or highly transferable skills that let me find work quickly.

I would never be out of work for long periods of time, because I'm not like that. I'm the kind of person who's happy to take whatever job there is if I can't find something perfect. Office, factory, labour, whatever, no problem.

It would suck being in the hospital with COVID, but I'm not sure what the problem there would be with regards to separate finances? It's not like I'd be spending anything while hooked up to machines in the hospital.

For what it's worth, I don't think there's only one holy grail system for this stuff, because every person's relationship and feelings on the matter are different. But I do think it's funny how like clockwork, the two sides on this issue are always the same. Separate finances people are like "This is how we do things, one option among many" and the joint people are like "This is the only way, otherwise you're basically not even married, do you even TEAM". Seriously, like clockwork.

sherr

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6103 on: January 06, 2021, 09:26:53 AM »
It would suck being in the hospital with COVID, but I'm not sure what the problem there would be with regards to separate finances? It's not like I'd be spending anything while hooked up to machines in the hospital.

Lol, what a not-American (USAican?) thing to say.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6104 on: January 06, 2021, 09:37:44 AM »
To those who rationalize the "split expenses with separate incomes" strategy - why don't you view yourselves as a household that makes joint decisions, and then you each get a set amount of spending money to do whatever with?

So my wife and I do have combined finances, and I agree with you as to the specific examples you gave. But people are free to work out their own relationships as they wish to, I'm not going to prescribe to them that they must do it my way. Split finances can also help in a number of situations, such as when one spouse is much spender than the other. It's a lot easier to not feel resentful about that if they're merely spending "their money" and you're saving "your money". Pooling it and giving allowances merely invites arguments about how big the allowances should be to some people.

That doesn't help much in the case of divorce.  The shared assets accumulated during the marriage generally get split.  So if A is a saver and B is a spender, then A's assets will get split with B.  They would need some sort of pre- or post-nup to protect A's savings.

In Canada RRSPs are set up so that the higher earner (married) can contribute to the lower earner's RRSP.  It evens out income after retirement, but it also gives the lower earner some financial acknowledgement/benefit if they divorce.

Financial arrangements are also usually different in late marriages/second marriages, where assets built over over time come into the marriage.  I know that if I were to get married again (nope, never) I would do the financial arrangements much differently, simply because of my stage in life.

@Zikoris, we have good health care.  Someone without good health care might really be nailed if they got a serious case of Covid, or anything else.  Plus there is always the issue of lost income during illness, without good insurance.  When I had pneumonia for over a month many years ago, I was fine financially because I had short term health insurance so no loss of income, I took sick leave from work, and my workplace insurance covered the drugs.  Quebec healthcare covered the x-rays and so on, and would have covered hospital costs if I had needed hospitalization.  Financially it was nothing.

@sherr   Definitely not an American thing to say  But it could have been Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, most/all of the EU, etc.  Americans have a health system not worthy of their nation's economic status.

sherr

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6105 on: January 06, 2021, 10:02:11 AM »
@sherr   Definitely not an American thing to say  But it could have been Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, most/all of the EU, etc.  Americans have a health system not worthy of their nation's economic status.

Oh I know. I said it was a "not-American" thing to say on purpose, not a "Canadian" thing to say.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6106 on: January 06, 2021, 10:03:46 AM »
To those who rationalize the "split expenses with separate incomes" strategy - why don't you view yourselves as a household that makes joint decisions, and then you each get a set amount of spending money to do whatever with?  If the higher earner's job requires living in a HCOLA, then that severely disadvantages the lower earner (this exact situation happened with a friend of mine).  Partner1 is an aerospace engineer, and lives in and around major cities, because that's where big airports are.  Partner2 had online work that could be done anywhere, but had no bump for living in a HCOLA.  Keeping their incomes separate was deeply unfair, in my opinion, to Parter2.  Another friend couple has PartnerA in the military, so while they get pay bumps/decreases based on where they live, PartnerB has to reapply for jobs in the new area, and has has more and less success depending on where they live.  Again, another situation where splitting expenses evenly is unfair to the second partner.

Finally, relationships and marriage are mini socialism.  You take care of each other.  What would you do, income and budget-wise, if one person is out of work for 6 months? A year?  Got Covid and is in the hospital for a month?  The split arrangement doesn't accommodate those much.

Because to people like us, that's just really unappealing and we have no desire to do so? I personally don't believe in having "spending money". It's not how I operate. Some people, like me, just have a personality type where they need total autonomy in such regards, and the idea of joint finances is really repulsive.

Now, for how I'd handle each of those situations.

There's no such thing as HCOL in my opinion. Any city you look at, you'll have people spending at all different levels. I've lived very cheaply in the most expensive city in Canada for most of my adult life. So for the first situation, I would say just find a way to live cheaply in the so-called HCOL place, that's no problem.

If I was going to be moving a lot for the sake of a partner, I would steer my job path towards remote work or highly transferable skills that let me find work quickly.

I would never be out of work for long periods of time, because I'm not like that. I'm the kind of person who's happy to take whatever job there is if I can't find something perfect. Office, factory, labour, whatever, no problem.

It would suck being in the hospital with COVID, but I'm not sure what the problem there would be with regards to separate finances? It's not like I'd be spending anything while hooked up to machines in the hospital.

For what it's worth, I don't think there's only one holy grail system for this stuff, because every person's relationship and feelings on the matter are different. But I do think it's funny how like clockwork, the two sides on this issue are always the same. Separate finances people are like "This is how we do things, one option among many" and the joint people are like "This is the only way, otherwise you're basically not even married, do you even TEAM". Seriously, like clockwork.

I was going to type this but you already did. We all make choices and with some life choices, separate finances may be more difficult to maintain. For some people, like me, the one pot approach would be extremely difficult. My partner makes the choice, for himself, to work as little as possible, to focus on his art. That was a 'take it or leave it' deal from the start. I took the deal knowing full well what the consequences would be for me. And he knew from the start that I always want to have access to money that's exclusively mine.

Which is, for example, a reason that I'd never start a relationship with someone in the military. I know that I'm the type of person that needs to put down roots. I wouldn't be suited to that life. My friend's husband is in the military and she did what Zikoris already suggested, she became an excellent interim office manager/PA/secretary. She is very well paid and has turned the frequent moving into something that's actually a career advantage in her case.

I'm from a country with decent social security so if my partner was unemployed or disabled or in hospital with Covid that would not affect our household finances at all. All those benefits would by the way go to him, personally, and would be based on his income, because in our country, for the purpose of social security, there's no such thing as a household, only individual tax payers.

The only way our household finances would be affected is when he would quit working without having a stash or any kind of claim to social security, so just quitting a job to basically sit on his ass all day. If he did that I would kick him out and I'd live on my own income and I'd still have more than enough.

We do have access to each others bank accounts, so in case of emergency, if I ran out of money while he was in a coma, I could take money out of his account. We've been together for years and years so I trust his judgement with my money when I'm unconscious.

@RetiredAt63 I assume that people with seperate finances usually have pre-nups. Otherwise you don't really have seperate finances, just separate wallets. That's a bad idea, because you don't know what you're spouse is doing but you are still responsible. Like my unmarried housewife friend. It's fine if you choose to have a traditional relationship with a breadwinner and a housewife, but please make sure you get the protective framework of marriage.

The standard legal contract of marriage isn't for everyone, but it's better than not having any legal document in place. The best option is to go to a lawyer and have them draw up all the paperwork you need in your unique situation. We did that but it's not cheap.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6107 on: January 06, 2021, 10:31:56 AM »

@RetiredAt63 I assume that people with seperate finances usually have pre-nups. Otherwise you don't really have seperate finances, just separate wallets. That's a bad idea, because you don't know what you're spouse is doing but you are still responsible. Like my unmarried housewife friend. It's fine if you choose to have a traditional relationship with a breadwinner and a housewife, but please make sure you get the protective framework of marriage.

The standard legal contract of marriage isn't for everyone, but it's better than not having any legal document in place. The best option is to go to a lawyer and have them draw up all the paperwork you need in your unique situation. We did that but it's not cheap.

I agree about the pre-nup, but lots of people (especially young and in love and idealistic people) don't realize that separate wallets =/= separate finances.

Plus here civil law (including marriage and divorce) are provincial, so some provinces recognize common-law marriages and some don't.  So if someone assumes common-law rules in a province where they don't exist, things can get iffy.  And it can go the other way, room-mates of opposite sex can find Revenue Canada thinks they are common-law married!  I had a friend who had to work very hard to kill that idea.  I have friends who have been together forever without actually being married, but they don't have kids.  Given our civil laws, I think here getting married once there are kids planned is essential.

I was one of those young and in love and idealistic people when I got married, and our pre-marriage counseling really didn't cover finances. I didn't even know he had student loan debt! And at that point we were both undergrads heading to grad school so neither of us had any money.  It wasn't until we were working that our different spending/saving habits started to show.

Mighty Eyebrows

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6108 on: January 06, 2021, 07:01:48 PM »
For the children, yes, but not for herself. In my country most divorced parents share care 50/50 (so you only receive child support for the days the child is with you) and child support is a standard amount based on tables, not a matter for endless discussion like in American courts. In their income situation she'd get maybe Ä400 in total child support if she's lucky.

If she was married, she would be entitled to spousal support, and she would automatically be classified as a tenant in their home. That means her in-laws wouldn't easily be able to evict her - the deal that they made with her husband would automatically transfer to her.

That is surprising to me, in a progressive country like the Netherlands. In BC (Canada), if you have lived together for 2 years, you are considered equivalent to married (common-law) for any family law matters.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/life-events/divorce/family-justice/family-law/dealing-with-property-and-debt/common-law

As said above, it is worthwhile to write down the partnership assumptions together before getting to this point!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 07:03:39 PM by Mighty Eyebrows »

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6109 on: January 06, 2021, 08:06:03 PM »
Are there any compelling reasons for a couple to avoid getting married in these different countries?

Plina

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6110 on: January 07, 2021, 05:14:06 AM »
Are there any compelling reasons for a couple to avoid getting married in these different countries?

Mostly there is no compelling reason to get married. In Sweden, it is extremely rare to get spousal support in case of divorce. Housewifes are basically extinct. You can get childsupport. You can not inherit your spouse if you are not married but you can be beneficiary to their retirementsavings. Otherwise there are no advantages today of getting married. You could partly fix the inheritance part through  a testament. On a societal level it is not frowned upon on staying unmarried.

Apples

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6111 on: January 07, 2021, 09:06:13 AM »
@Zikoris fair enough.  Yeah, the Covid hospital situation is American-based - you rack up dozens or hundreds of thousands in medical costs, which wipe out your savings *unless you have excellent health insurance, which a lot of the population doesn't have*.  Also, for those about to say "out-of-pocket limits", I raise you with "balance billing". 

And finally, here in the US, maternity leave.  The thing that gets a lot of people onto joint finances is that it's unfair to expect the birthing half of the couple to be responsible for covering expenses while on an unpaid maternity leave.

I think I said that marriage is mini socialism.  I guess if you have actual socialism is makes is less necessary to view marriage as such.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6112 on: January 07, 2021, 11:47:08 AM »
Are there any compelling reasons for a couple to avoid getting married in these different countries?

@Mighty Eyebrows we are not a common law country in the Netherlands, that's why we can't have a common law spouse. But except for marriage you can also choose a civil partnership (legally nearly the same thing as marriage but sounds less traditional) and a cohabitation agreement where you and your partner can make your own set of rules. Like in Sweden we can also transfer pension rights to a partner we have a cohabitation agreement with. If you want to leave your estate to a partner you cohabitate with you need a will, but you qualify for the same inheritance tax rate as married or civil partnered (?) couple and in all situations it's easy to become a co-tenant if you rent.
 
 Why so many smart, educated people choose to arrange nothing at all even though there are so many options? I don't know. I think maybe some people don't want to think of bad things that can happen, or maybe because so many people are unmarried these days, they think of marriage or the legal alternatives as a religious ritual and not as something that has serious legal consequences.

@Plina I'm surprised spousal support is rare in Sweden. Do you not have a gender pay gap anymore? Or do you only qualify for spousal support if you don't work at all? In the Netherlands spousal support is still fairly common. The duration is usually only a couple of years but our courts don't think it's fair that a lower earning spouse suddenly has to pay all of their own bills without the support of the high earning spouse, so they basically create a transition period during which the lower earning partner can find a better job or go back to school.

@Apples in this socialist country parents of both genders get paid parental leave. Even female business owners get paid maternity leave. It would be extremely unfair if the woman would have to pay for that on her own.

Plina

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6113 on: January 07, 2021, 01:14:14 PM »
@Imma We do have a gender gap. Therefore women are encouraged to share the parental leave with the father and the sick days for kids so that they will not be punished when it comes to retirement for ex. You basically have to be a housewife or without income for some other reason to get spousal support. The spousal support would still be limited in time. The kids have a right to maintain the same living standard as they have previously had. So the child support are higher in those cases but that is only the case until the kids are 18 or until they finish high school.

Our social system is mostly based on individuals. Everybody is taxed separately. The parental leave can be taken by both of the parents according to their choices and is based on the income of the parent taking it. The state pension is less if you are married and if you are low income who needs help with rent the income of all people in the household is counted. The sick leave is dependent on your income. We donít have any inheritance tax.

alienbogey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6114 on: January 07, 2021, 10:57:22 PM »
The poster didnít want to spend the money on new tires so she just traded her car in for the newest model. I canít even imagine thinking this would be better than getting the new tires.

They did get new tires.  They came with the new car. 

iluvzbeach

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6115 on: January 08, 2021, 05:19:56 PM »
Haha @alienbogey. You are so right. I stand corrected. 😜

Extraordinarily expensive new tires, but new nonetheless.

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6116 on: January 08, 2021, 06:04:08 PM »
The poster didnít want to spend the money on new tires so she just traded her car in for the newest model. I canít even imagine thinking this would be better than getting the new tires.

They did get new tires.  They came with the new car.

Haha, yes. Much better to spend hundreds of dollars per month for years than to spend $600 once every several years (like my husband just did to replace all the tires on his 20-year-old car).

Syonyk

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6117 on: January 08, 2021, 06:47:24 PM »
Haha, yes. Much better to spend hundreds of dollars per month for years than to spend $600 once every several years (like my husband just did to replace all the tires on his 20-year-old car).

When your definition of "finances" is "monthly cashflow based," then, quite literally, yes.

A set of tires for a newer car is typically closer to $1000 - depending on wheel size and such, it can be higher.  Of course, that's an unplanned emergency expense, because who knew tires wear out?  If you're spending, say, $500/mo on your car, and have no savings and no slack room in your budget, then rolling it into a new car at $500/mo, with a loan term of "Well, who cares, nobody ever pays off a car anyway..." with the residual loan balance means that you've "saved money" by keeping your monthly payment the same!  That you have a 150 month loan, well... I mean, that's way down the road, so who cares?

It makes sense, from a particular (and depressingly common) point of view about finances.

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6118 on: January 08, 2021, 10:16:54 PM »
Tire prices are another great reason to drive an older car with more average tires - not high speed, not low profile, not really wide.

My 20 year old V6 domestic sedan tires cost ~$65 each at WalMart. As low as $48 if cost is a major concern.

A modern SUV with 19 inch tires or so are ~$175 or so.

WerKater

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6119 on: January 09, 2021, 06:39:50 AM »
Or you could just not wash it.... like my embarrassing car.
My car is seven and a half years old. I have not washed it once.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6120 on: January 09, 2021, 09:45:27 AM »
Or you could just not wash it.... like my embarrassing car.
My car is seven and a half years old. I have not washed it once.

I assume that your area doesn't salt the roads? In the US, the Rust Belt came by its name honestly - salting the roads in winter results in salt on the vehicle, which results in rust over time. Not washing your car, at least to get the salt off, is a really bad idea.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6121 on: January 09, 2021, 10:08:44 AM »
My area salts the roads and I have never washed a car. Itís been fine.

Mighty Eyebrows

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6122 on: January 09, 2021, 10:33:35 AM »
My area salts the roads and I have never washed a car. Itís been fine.

Caring for one's tools is a sign of respect for the materials and effort that went into making them. It also helps them last longer and work better and so is kinder on the environment, as well.

Some people wash their car too much, but that doesn't make mindlessly rebelling against the stereotype a good idea either.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6123 on: January 09, 2021, 11:44:44 AM »
My area salts the roads and I have never washed a car. Itís been fine.

My area salts the roads and I didn't wash my first car and the suspension rusted out.

Now I wash and rust proof my cars.

WerKater

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6124 on: January 09, 2021, 12:16:31 PM »
Or you could just not wash it.... like my embarrassing car.
My car is seven and a half years old. I have not washed it once.

I assume that your area doesn't salt the roads? In the US, the Rust Belt came by its name honestly - salting the roads in winter results in salt on the vehicle, which results in rust over time. Not washing your car, at least to get the salt off, is a really bad idea.
I was not aware of that. They do salt the roads here, although I have not had a problem yet. How often would you suggest to wash it? And would it suffice to hose it down?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6125 on: January 09, 2021, 01:09:10 PM »
I was not aware of that. They do salt the roads here, although I have not had a problem yet. How often would you suggest to wash it? And would it suffice to hose it down?

I believe modern road salting agents are a bit less corrosive than the actual salt used in the past (and certainly less hostile to roadside vegetation, for better or for worse).  However, the areas of concern are the underside, and a hose probably won't do a good job of getting the salt out of the various places it's been splashed under the car.

Car washes with a good undercarriage wash exist for a reason, and really do make a difference in areas with a lot of road salt.

rockstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6126 on: January 09, 2021, 02:23:43 PM »
My area salts the roads and I have never washed a car. Itís been fine.

Caring for one's tools is a sign of respect for the materials and effort that went into making them. It also helps them last longer and work better and so is kinder on the environment, as well.

Some people wash their car too much, but that doesn't make mindlessly rebelling against the stereotype a good idea either.
I take good care of my cars and they have all lasted well over 200k miles. I have quite accidentally found that car washing is totally unnecessary for me. I donít know what the stereotype youíre referring to is in this case, Iím just sharing what I do in a salty snowy climate. You do you, of course.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6127 on: January 09, 2021, 02:57:01 PM »
I was not aware of that. They do salt the roads here, although I have not had a problem yet. How often would you suggest to wash it? And would it suffice to hose it down?

I believe modern road salting agents are a bit less corrosive than the actual salt used in the past (and certainly less hostile to roadside vegetation, for better or for worse).  However, the areas of concern are the underside, and a hose probably won't do a good job of getting the salt out of the various places it's been splashed under the car.

Car washes with a good undercarriage wash exist for a reason, and really do make a difference in areas with a lot of road salt.

I think it depends on where you are. Here the ground is saturated in car eating salt. It chews through bikes and winter boots as well.

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6128 on: January 09, 2021, 03:54:30 PM »
Or you could just not wash it.... like my embarrassing car.
My car is seven and a half years old. I have not washed it once.

I assume that your area doesn't salt the roads? In the US, the Rust Belt came by its name honestly - salting the roads in winter results in salt on the vehicle, which results in rust over time. Not washing your car, at least to get the salt off, is a really bad idea.
Oh heavens, no. I donít live where that white stuff falls from the sky. :)

In subject, I got out the vacuum and sucked up the worst of the crumbs and dirt in the car this afternoon. It is significantly less embarrassing than before. Iíd need to shampoo the back seat to undo all the mess from my kids if I really wanted it clean. One day...

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6129 on: January 09, 2021, 07:13:06 PM »
Or you could just not wash it.... like my embarrassing car.
My car is seven and a half years old. I have not washed it once.

I assume that your area doesn't salt the roads? In the US, the Rust Belt came by its name honestly - salting the roads in winter results in salt on the vehicle, which results in rust over time. Not washing your car, at least to get the salt off, is a really bad idea.
I was not aware of that. They do salt the roads here, although I have not had a problem yet. How often would you suggest to wash it? And would it suffice to hose it down?

Go through a car wash that has an undercarriage wash. In the spring after all the snow has melted (and the salt/equivalents) are washed away. That will get you the most benefit with least effort. If there's a lot of salt used, maybe take advantage of a warm spell during the winter to do the same. A hose will help, but not as much as an undercarriage wash.

Rusting out the undercarriage doesn't happen overnight, it takes years, but it will sneak up on you distressingly quickly. And you can't prevent it entirely, but washing it off will greatly slow it down.

IsThisAGoodUsername

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6130 on: January 09, 2021, 07:34:17 PM »
A hose will help, but not as much as an undercarriage wash.

I'd love to get a good undercarriage wash.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6131 on: January 09, 2021, 07:45:39 PM »
A hose will help, but not as much as an undercarriage wash.

I'd love to get a good undercarriage wash.

What you yankees need is a bidet for cars.

IsThisAGoodUsername

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6132 on: January 09, 2021, 07:49:36 PM »
What you yankees need is a bidet for cars.

THAT is a brilliant idea! How do we make it happen!?!

Cadman

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6133 on: January 09, 2021, 08:03:46 PM »
Actually, what's being put down on the roads now by the DOT is actually MORE corrosive than the old rock salt, but it is more effective at lower temps. I live in the rust belt and if it's a car I actually care about, a weekly undercarriage wash would be about the right cadence. I've seen first hand what a single season of winter driving can do to the virgin frame of a southern car, and it's not pretty.

Frame aside, it's the brake and fuel lines that really take a beating. An easy fix if you're handy; a good excuse to sell an otherwise decent car if you're clueless.


SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6134 on: January 09, 2021, 08:07:33 PM »
What you yankees need is a bidet for cars.

THAT is a brilliant idea! How do we make it happen!?!

Not a clue.   But the old style yard sprinklers, the kind that are on sort of an a-frame and the top pipe has a curve in it that rotates the water spray from side to-side, if tied to a stick, might be a cheap way to wash out the undercarriage.

Syonyk

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6135 on: January 09, 2021, 08:13:58 PM »
Not a clue.   But the old style yard sprinklers, the kind that are on sort of an a-frame and the top pipe has a curve in it that rotates the water spray from side to-side, if tied to a stick, might be a cheap way to wash out the undercarriage.

FFS.  Spend the $5 in the spring, after you fill up, or the $10 if you have an electric, and get a proper car wash.  The pressure they use is far higher than your garden hose will generate.

There's a difference between being frugal and being cheap, and refusing to use a good car wash a couple times a year on what is probably a several thousand dollar asset or more, is dumb.

Cadman

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6136 on: January 09, 2021, 08:23:05 PM »
What you yankees need is a bidet for cars.

THAT is a brilliant idea! How do we make it happen!?!

Not a clue.   But the old style yard sprinklers, the kind that are on sort of an a-frame and the top pipe has a curve in it that rotates the water spray from side to-side, if tied to a stick, might be a cheap way to wash out the undercarriage.

Boom! https://www.toolbarn.com/be-pressure-85-400-062.html

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6137 on: January 09, 2021, 08:29:07 PM »
What you yankees need is a bidet for cars.

THAT is a brilliant idea! How do we make it happen!?!

Not a clue.   But the old style yard sprinklers, the kind that are on sort of an a-frame and the top pipe has a curve in it that rotates the water spray from side to-side, if tied to a stick, might be a cheap way to wash out the undercarriage.

Boom! https://www.toolbarn.com/be-pressure-85-400-062.html

Looks like a plausible and cheap solution if you've already got a pressure washer or intend to get one anyway.

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6138 on: January 10, 2021, 10:31:57 AM »
Actually, what's being put down on the roads now by the DOT is actually MORE corrosive than the old rock salt, but it is more effective at lower temps. I live in the rust belt and if it's a car I actually care about, a weekly undercarriage wash would be about the right cadence. I've seen first hand what a single season of winter driving can do to the virgin frame of a southern car, and it's not pretty.

Frame aside, it's the brake and fuel lines that really take a beating. An easy fix if you're handy; a good excuse to sell an otherwise decent car if you're clueless.

Well, that's yucky. And unfortunately, if it's below freezing, you can't do much about it. Icing up the underneath of a car can't be good for it, at least on a regular basis.

Metalcat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6139 on: January 10, 2021, 03:32:35 PM »
Actually, what's being put down on the roads now by the DOT is actually MORE corrosive than the old rock salt, but it is more effective at lower temps. I live in the rust belt and if it's a car I actually care about, a weekly undercarriage wash would be about the right cadence. I've seen first hand what a single season of winter driving can do to the virgin frame of a southern car, and it's not pretty.

Frame aside, it's the brake and fuel lines that really take a beating. An easy fix if you're handy; a good excuse to sell an otherwise decent car if you're clueless.

Well, that's yucky. And unfortunately, if it's below freezing, you can't do much about it. Icing up the underneath of a car can't be good for it, at least on a regular basis.

It doesn't ice up the bottom of the car though. Cars are hot while they're on, so the water doesn't get a chance to freeze in place any more than normal road water.

But yeah, I reserve car washes for warmer winter days, like -5C, otherwise the doors can freeze shut.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 03:34:08 PM by Malcat »

Plina

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6140 on: January 10, 2021, 10:34:30 PM »
Actually, what's being put down on the roads now by the DOT is actually MORE corrosive than the old rock salt, but it is more effective at lower temps. I live in the rust belt and if it's a car I actually care about, a weekly undercarriage wash would be about the right cadence. I've seen first hand what a single season of winter driving can do to the virgin frame of a southern car, and it's not pretty.

Frame aside, it's the brake and fuel lines that really take a beating. An easy fix if you're handy; a good excuse to sell an otherwise decent car if you're clueless.

Well, that's yucky. And unfortunately, if it's below freezing, you can't do much about it. Icing up the underneath of a car can't be good for it, at least on a regular basis.

It doesn't ice up the bottom of the car though. Cars are hot while they're on, so the water doesn't get a chance to freeze in place any more than normal road water.

But yeah, I reserve car washes for warmer winter days, like -5C, otherwise the doors can freeze shut.

Not that I washed my car when it was really cold when I had one but would not the dryer in the car wash prevent the Doors from freezing shut?

Metalcat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6141 on: January 11, 2021, 12:38:50 AM »
Actually, what's being put down on the roads now by the DOT is actually MORE corrosive than the old rock salt, but it is more effective at lower temps. I live in the rust belt and if it's a car I actually care about, a weekly undercarriage wash would be about the right cadence. I've seen first hand what a single season of winter driving can do to the virgin frame of a southern car, and it's not pretty.

Frame aside, it's the brake and fuel lines that really take a beating. An easy fix if you're handy; a good excuse to sell an otherwise decent car if you're clueless.

Well, that's yucky. And unfortunately, if it's below freezing, you can't do much about it. Icing up the underneath of a car can't be good for it, at least on a regular basis.

It doesn't ice up the bottom of the car though. Cars are hot while they're on, so the water doesn't get a chance to freeze in place any more than normal road water.

But yeah, I reserve car washes for warmer winter days, like -5C, otherwise the doors can freeze shut.

Not that I washed my car when it was really cold when I had one but would not the dryer in the car wash prevent the Doors from freezing shut?

I don't know about the dryers where you are, but my car is always still covered in a ton of droplets when I get out of the car wash. Also, it gets extremely cold where I live, like Alaska cold, and it doesn't take a ton of water to freeze a door or lock.

Kris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6142 on: January 11, 2021, 06:25:44 AM »
A hose will help, but not as much as an undercarriage wash.

I'd love to get a good undercarriage wash.

What you yankees need is a bidet for cars.

What we yanks need is a bidet for humans.

Metalcat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6143 on: January 11, 2021, 02:52:02 PM »
A hose will help, but not as much as an undercarriage wash.

I'd love to get a good undercarriage wash.

What you yankees need is a bidet for cars.

What we yanks need is a bidet for humans.

So...a bidet??

martyconlonontherun

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6144 on: January 11, 2021, 03:27:45 PM »
To those who rationalize the "split expenses with separate incomes" strategy - why don't you view yourselves as a household that makes joint decisions, and then you each get a set amount of spending money to do whatever with?  If the higher earner's job requires living in a HCOLA, then that severely disadvantages the lower earner (this exact situation happened with a friend of mine).  Partner1 is an aerospace engineer, and lives in and around major cities, because that's where big airports are.  Partner2 had online work that could be done anywhere, but had no bump for living in a HCOLA.  Keeping their incomes separate was deeply unfair, in my opinion, to Parter2.  Another friend couple has PartnerA in the military, so while they get pay bumps/decreases based on where they live, PartnerB has to reapply for jobs in the new area, and has has more and less success depending on where they live.  Again, another situation where splitting expenses evenly is unfair to the second partner.

Finally, relationships and marriage are mini socialism.  You take care of each other.  What would you do, income and budget-wise, if one person is out of work for 6 months? A year?  Got Covid and is in the hospital for a month?  The split arrangement doesn't accommodate those much.
So because it can't work for some people, no one should take that strategy? I work more and have a less fulfilling job. I'm not holding her back and fully supportive of what she does. In our situation, we live way below our means so we don't have any big desires. We split our mortgage and child costs (which are more clear cut now since it daycare and diapers). It saves from a thousand little grievances on things she buys and things I buy which are totally different.

As for non-financial household contributions, she probably does more around the house daily but I take care of all the yard work and have fixed up two rooms in the last year so I'm guessing total time spent is 50/50. She takes care of the kid more often, but I drive to pick him up/drop him off for 5 hours a weeks.

Also you are assuming these are hard rules. They are not. We have an emergency fund so we could roll with that if either of us loss our job. I had a 8% cut due to furloughs and I ate it, but I'm sure if something really bad happened we would be a "joint-household". It is just a mind-set that this is your money to spend how you feel best and this is the money I spend. We don't have a pre-nup so legally she has half of everything.

It also helps we don't spend a ton of non-required money. We travel but mostly on points I'm in charge of so it doesn't really matter so no fighting about splitting a vacation one person is more excited about. I naturally don't like to eat out, so luckily I win that argument now due to COVID.

MayDay

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6145 on: January 12, 2021, 04:56:39 AM »
Regarding the car washes.... I am curious what age the cars were for those who have experienced dire circumstances. Because coating technology has improved significantly. The entire undercarriage of your reasonably newish car (let's say 2000 and newer, I can't remember exactly when the technology emerged) has been coated with an e-coat which gets into every nook and cranny of anything metal. Floorboards rusting out are no longer a thing. Of you have a rust problem it is now 99% likely either a manufacturing defect that no amount of washing will overcome, or damage to the coating, which no amount of washing will overcome.

Also: higher salt concentrations actually inhibit corrosion.

^^This is my area of technical expertise, an I overrule the various anecdotes that people share about their car washing routines. Additionally I counter them with my 18 year old civic that was rarely washed and I ly had corrosion at the spots my bike rack rubbed the paint off, and our 17 year old van that only has corrosion where the previous owner crunched it up a bit.

Of course I still washed my car last week because it had so much salt on it that visibility out the windows was becoming a problem.

Morning Glory

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6146 on: January 12, 2021, 05:22:11 AM »
My car is 17 years old but low mileage. The frame is getting rusty and my husband says he has to be careful where he puts the jack when switching tires. It has rust on the doors too. We live in a place where they use a ton of salt, and it maybe gets washed 2x/ year. I park on the street when I work so there's no sense in having anything too nice. I plan to keep that car for as long as the heat and AC work, or until the frame rusts through, whichever comes first.

Out old pickup has holes in the bed and floorboards from rust.

Model96

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6147 on: January 12, 2021, 05:35:58 AM »
Regarding the car washes.... I am curious what age the cars were for those who have experienced dire circumstances. Because coating technology has improved significantly. The entire undercarriage of your reasonably newish car (let's say 2000 and newer, I can't remember exactly when the technology emerged) has been coated with an e-coat which gets into every nook and cranny of anything metal. Floorboards rusting out are no longer a thing. Of you have a rust problem it is now 99% likely either a manufacturing defect that no amount of washing will overcome, or damage to the coating, which no amount of washing will overcome.

Also: higher salt concentrations actually inhibit corrosion.

^^This is my area of technical expertise, an I overrule the various anecdotes that people share about their car washing routines. Additionally I counter them with my 18 year old civic that was rarely washed and I ly had corrosion at the spots my bike rack rubbed the paint off, and our 17 year old van that only has corrosion where the previous owner crunched it up a bit.

Of course I still washed my car last week because it had so much salt on it that visibility out the windows was becoming a problem.

Some Japanes and European vehicles have had galvanised panels since the mid eighties, slows the formation of rust for many years.
Worst period for rusting cars was the late 60's to late 70ís, lead coatings were banned but no decent alternatives available..

Segare

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6148 on: January 12, 2021, 05:48:10 AM »
Haha, yes. Much better to spend hundreds of dollars per month for years than to spend $600 once every several years (like my husband just did to replace all the tires on his 20-year-old car).

When your definition of "finances" is "monthly cashflow based," then, quite literally, yes.

A set of tires for a newer car is typically closer to $1000 - depending on wheel size and such, it can be higher.  Of course, that's an unplanned emergency expense, because who knew tires wear out?  If you're spending, say, $500/mo on your car, and have no savings and no slack room in your budget, then rolling it into a new car at $500/mo, with a loan term of "Well, who cares, nobody ever pays off a car anyway..." with the residual loan balance means that you've "saved money" by keeping your monthly payment the same!  That you have a 150 month loan, well... I mean, that's way down the road, so who cares?

It makes sense, from a particular (and depressingly common) point of view about finances.

Must depend on the vehicle. Our Kia Souls and old VW's are $360 to $420 for a set of four times balanced and installed at the local small tire shop near us.   Six tires for my RV was a bit over $1100, those are load range E tires.

Morning Glory

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6149 on: January 12, 2021, 06:20:43 AM »
Haha, yes. Much better to spend hundreds of dollars per month for years than to spend $600 once every several years (like my husband just did to replace all the tires on his 20-year-old car).

When your definition of "finances" is "monthly cashflow based," then, quite literally, yes.

A set of tires for a newer car is typically closer to $1000 - depending on wheel size and such, it can be higher.  Of course, that's an unplanned emergency expense, because who knew tires wear out?  If you're spending, say, $500/mo on your car, and have no savings and no slack room in your budget, then rolling it into a new car at $500/mo, with a loan term of "Well, who cares, nobody ever pays off a car anyway..." with the residual loan balance means that you've "saved money" by keeping your monthly payment the same!  That you have a 150 month loan, well... I mean, that's way down the road, so who cares?

It makes sense, from a particular (and depressingly common) point of view about finances.

Must depend on the vehicle. Our Kia Souls and old VW's are $360 to $420 for a set of four times balanced and installed at the local small tire shop near us.   Six tires for my RV was a bit over $1100, those are load range E tires.

My car came with 17" rims and stupid low profile tires. We got a set of 16" rims at the junkyard so I could use real winter tires. The car is a lot safer to drive with those on, and the tires are cheaper and last longer too.

 We buy most of our tires at the junkyard. We have a device for putting tires on and off rims, then we take them to Costco to get balanced.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!