Relatives who just don't get it

[Wrenchturner]

My mother seems to be running low on cash.  She won't talk specifics with me or my brother.  She's 61, four years from some nice government cash.

She lives in a 3 bedroom house and unscrews the CFL bulbs to save energy.  I'm trying to get her to downsize since her mortgage is almost paid off.  If she would only position herself to be mortgage free she'd have a much better time with her cashflow.  She works odd jobs here and there and hasn't been saving money for her taxes owing.  Deferred everything as soon as she could with the COVID situation.

Really hard to watch someone maintain their stubbornness when their position could be so much better.

Hopefully when the cats pass on she will move into a duplex/townhouse(or sooner).  I'm laying the groundwork for this conversation to anticipate the inevitable begging for money.

The crazy thing is--she's otherwise pretty good with money.  Doesn't buy useless stuff, doesn't carry debt, but she has this horrible anxiety towards change.  It took me years to get her to retire her old Buick that was nickel and diming her.

Is she running low on cash, or is her anxiety making her fear she is? Because if she won't talk specifics, there really is no way to tell which it is. Anxiety, if it's clinical level, is not necessarily going to just stick to the same old thing. Especially given the current environment, she might be spiraling.

I don't know.  She doesn't budget.  She got hit with a big tax bill this year and I think that's where her anxiety is coming from.  Her mortgage payments and taxes/utilities probably don't help.  Plus the occasional car trouble/computer trouble.  She's just always behind the eight ball it seems, and doesn't really plan ahead.  I know she has some mutual funds and my uncle cuts her a cheque every year for some land use for farming.  Since she doesn't really paint a clear picture of her finances I don't think SHE even knows if she's running out of money.

She's always been anxious.  It's not a new thing.  I don't know that she has ever "spiraled".  She's just mostly very avoidant.  Luckily she was approved for the CERB benefit in Canada which provides $2k a month for the next four months.

[DadJokes]

On the phone with my 55 y.o. father yesterday:

Him: I got a new truck! Well, new-to-me truck. It's a 2015 Sierra
Me: I'm glad you went down the used route. What was wrong with your old vehicle?
Him: It started having some mechanical issues, so I decided to get a new one rather than deal with the hassle.
Me: ...
Him: We just paid off my wife's car in November, so all we did was trade a payment for a payment.
Me: O...kay? How long is the loan?
Him: 72 months. Our only debts now are the truck, the mortgage, and a home improvement loan (rolled into mortgage).
Me: I guess that's not too bad.
Him: Oh, and the 401(k) loan I took out to pay off the credit cards last year, but that's almost paid off.

Follow up!

Him: Did I tell you I got a new motorcycle?
Me: No...Didn't you just get a truck a couple weeks ago?
My wife overhearing: Be nice
Him: Yeah
Me: And aren't you also planning to get an RV?
Him: We're not getting the RV anytime soon. That's more of a retirement plan.
Me: And when is that going to be?
Him: Well, one of my co-workers is still working at 69, and I think I'll have him beat.

That means my father, who is a truck driver for an oil company, plans to be working for another 14 years at a minimum. As such, I should in fact retire before my own father. He went on to say that he makes about $115k per year, which is more than our household income, and he lives in an extremely low cost of living area.

During our weekly phone call last night, I learned that he expects to be reduced to a 40 hour limit, which would effectively reduce his pay by half. He's already looking into getting a deferment on his truck loan.

[By the River]

During our weekly phone call last night, I learned that he expects to be reduced to a 40 hour limit, which would effectively reduce his pay by half. He's already looking into getting a deferment on his truck loan.

I hope this super-low oil price ends soon for his sake, for my many friends in the oil field and the country as well.  (not that higher oil prices will help the US economy but that an improved US economy can increase demand for oil and thus higher prices). 

[Sibley]

My mother seems to be running low on cash.  She won't talk specifics with me or my brother.  She's 61, four years from some nice government cash.

She lives in a 3 bedroom house and unscrews the CFL bulbs to save energy.  I'm trying to get her to downsize since her mortgage is almost paid off.  If she would only position herself to be mortgage free she'd have a much better time with her cashflow.  She works odd jobs here and there and hasn't been saving money for her taxes owing.  Deferred everything as soon as she could with the COVID situation.

Really hard to watch someone maintain their stubbornness when their position could be so much better.

Hopefully when the cats pass on she will move into a duplex/townhouse(or sooner).  I'm laying the groundwork for this conversation to anticipate the inevitable begging for money.

The crazy thing is--she's otherwise pretty good with money.  Doesn't buy useless stuff, doesn't carry debt, but she has this horrible anxiety towards change.  It took me years to get her to retire her old Buick that was nickel and diming her.

Is she running low on cash, or is her anxiety making her fear she is? Because if she won't talk specifics, there really is no way to tell which it is. Anxiety, if it's clinical level, is not necessarily going to just stick to the same old thing. Especially given the current environment, she might be spiraling.

I don't know.  She doesn't budget.  She got hit with a big tax bill this year and I think that's where her anxiety is coming from.  Her mortgage payments and taxes/utilities probably don't help.  Plus the occasional car trouble/computer trouble.  She's just always behind the eight ball it seems, and doesn't really plan ahead.  I know she has some mutual funds and my uncle cuts her a cheque every year for some land use for farming.  Since she doesn't really paint a clear picture of her finances I don't think SHE even knows if she's running out of money.

She's always been anxious.  It's not a new thing.  I don't know that she has ever "spiraled".  She's just mostly very avoidant.  Luckily she was approved for the CERB benefit in Canada which provides $2k a month for the next four months.

That's rough. I would keep an eye on her as best you can, the stress of the pandemic is pushing people who are normally stable/functional but have some minor issues over the edge into a bigger problem.

[fredbear]

... the stress of the pandemic is pushing people who are normally stable/functional but have some minor issues over the edge into a bigger problem.

Spot on.  The president of a group I volunteer for has largely forgotten what the group and the board actually do, in the rush of dumping boluses of unsnopsed internet drivel about Covid-19 onto us.  I guess tactfully one says it has 'touched a nerve,' but what it really seems is that he is grasping at this to keep from disintegrating or is gratifying some self-ideal of 'leadership.' 

[iris lily]

... the stress of the pandemic is pushing people who are normally stable/functional but have some minor issues over the edge into a bigger problem.

Spot on.  The president of a group I volunteer for has largely forgotten what the group and the board actually do, in the rush of dumping boluses of unsnopsed internet drivel about Covid-19 onto us.  I guess tactfully one says it has 'touched a nerve,' but what it really seems is that he is grasping at this to keep from disintegrating or is gratifying some self-ideal of 'leadership.'

“Boluses of unsnoped drivel...” is such a fabulous phrase! Love it!

[fell-like-rain]

I was in a big group call with a particular branch of my family recently, and during the chit-chat someone mentioned they were hoping things improve soon “so we can get back into equities.” From further context, it sounds like a bunch of them sold everything and went into fixed-income, probably on the advice of the one cousin who is a professional investment manager.

 Of course, there are investing strategies other than buy-and-hold, and it’s certainly possible that they’ll beat the market, but there’s already been a big jump from the bottom... if they sold out in Feb or early March, they’re sitting pretty for the moment, but later than that and it’s looking like trouble. I kinda wanted to start asking questions, but then I reminded myself that these people have more money than I’ll ever see and they’ll be doing just fine no matter what, so I held my tongue.

[Just Joe]

I wonder if the any MMM people tell you that there are advantages to having a mortgage late in life.

We know of an elderly couple who went upscale just as their money got tight in retirement. Nice place they moved to and a good move otherwise b/c it is easier to maneuver around in being one level. Then sickness came for one of them (now partially recovered) and money is even tighter.

No idea if this virus will take the weaker one but we worry about the remaining spouse b/c we're not sure they can afford to stay there by themselves. Might have been better for them to have looked for a real estate deal that didn't cost so much.

DW and I sure wish we were mortgage free right now with the virus uncertainty... Our goal is to be mortgage free before we retire.

At the heart of this, wouldn't it essentially be the "rent versus buy" decision? 

 If they could find the same place, to rent, for the same or less money (total), then rent.   If they could not find ANY rentals that met basic needs (single floor, ability to install handrails for safety, close to shops, doctors, exercise opportunities), and were to likely stay for 5-10 years then the mortgage route could make sense, assuming they had their "leave" plans in place for various scenarios.

If so, then the only variable about being "retired" is the impact that aging has on the ability to leave a place.  This could sway them in favor of long term buying versus renting as no landlord to surprise you with a move out notice, you have the ability to reverse mortgage or get a renter and stay in place despite income issues, or conversely, age could sway them to rent because it is easier to leave if health changes, and protect remaining assets.

Most likely, they are falling into the YOLO trap of wanting to live in a place they love because YOLO, and when you are older, if not now, then when?  Which, honestly, is a pretty strong argument even with its dangers.

Your exactly right. We're concerned about them spending down their savings b/c they went too far upscale and then later one or both of them will need living assistance and won't have the $$$ to afford something comfortable. They have always been spenders as long as we've known them.

[LWYRUP]

... the stress of the pandemic is pushing people who are normally stable/functional but have some minor issues over the edge into a bigger problem.

Spot on.  The president of a group I volunteer for has largely forgotten what the group and the board actually do, in the rush of dumping boluses of unsnopsed internet drivel about Covid-19 onto us.  I guess tactfully one says it has 'touched a nerve,' but what it really seems is that he is grasping at this to keep from disintegrating or is gratifying some self-ideal of 'leadership.'

Maybe mustachians will relate to this.  Does anyone else get irritated about all the pop-business talk about "leadership?"  Most of what I want from people in positions of power / influence over me is to leave me the fuck alone, and in turn I assume that people who I have power / influence over also just want me to leave them the fuck alone. 

But apparently I am a tiny minority in this and everyone else is just sitting around desperately looking for leaders to lead them? 

[Wrenchturner]

Maybe mustachians will relate to this.  Does anyone else get irritated about all the pop-business talk about "leadership?"  Most of what I want from people in positions of power / influence over me is to leave me the fuck alone, and in turn I assume that people who I have power / influence over also just want me to leave them the fuck alone. 

But apparently I am a tiny minority in this and everyone else is just sitting around desperately looking for leaders to lead them?

I think this is usually a type of bureaucratic busybodying.  If they can mire themselves in the rabbit hole of "leadership", they can justify their own salaried existence and probably hire more people like them to discuss leadership with.

[rockstache]

I think a lot of people DO want to be led but can’t/won’t admit it, or else don’t spend much time considering it. I think the overlap between that group and mustachians is probably quite small.

[penguintroopers]

I generally want leadership in the form of information and advocacy. If bigger corporate makes a rule and I find that it’s impeding my work, I don’t want my boss telling me “tough luck”. When crap is up in the air, I want leadership announcing their plans, finding answers and making decisions in a clear, efficient manner.

[fredbear]

Maybe mustachians will relate to this.  Does anyone else get irritated about all the pop-business talk about "leadership?"  Most of what I want from people in positions of power / influence over me is to leave me the fuck alone, and in turn I assume that people who I have power / influence over also just want me to leave them the fuck alone. 

But apparently I am a tiny minority in this and everyone else is just sitting around desperately looking for leaders to lead them?

What I want from leadership is clear definition of goal and timeline, clear definition of who reports to whom, clear milestones, clear resource allocation, clarity about what comprises success at the task.  Pellucidity thy name is fredbear.  Sort of a combination of the Incident Command System, and good-practice software development techniques.  I loathe good-feels.  Sort of destroyed a meeting where X finished going over what was to happen, and then decided to have a touchy-feely round robin.  "Now fredbear, how do you feel about your assignment?"  "You mean like, breathless anticipation?  Queasy revulsion?  I can't believe you asked that.  How do I feel about my assignment?  I'm going to do it, accurately and on time.  I have no idea how I feel about it, and no idea what difference it would make.  How I feel about it has nothing to do with getting the assignment done."

It was a long route, but a logical one, from fredbear, problematic employee, to fredbear, problematic commenter.

[okonumiyaki]

Some relatives of mine, an elderly couple, have always been on the spendypants side despite being quite affluent and high-earning. They retired early and are now in their 70s but have saved only a few million, most of which is tied up in commercial real estate. About five years ago they moved out of one McMansion and into another even bigger one, which for a variety of reasons was mortgaged. Anyway, they just got a communication from their commercial tenant that due to COVID-19 the tenant needs a rent reduction to stay in business. The type of commercial tenants they have are "critical" per federal and local guidelines so they are staying open, but not all the locations are doing well. This combined with the stock market crash has them freaking out, but who in their right mind has a mortgage at age 70+? I do worry about this couple. They're a nice couple but not at all savvy financially.

They are 70+ with a few million?  I think they will make it fine until they die.

[Wrenchturner]

Maybe mustachians will relate to this.  Does anyone else get irritated about all the pop-business talk about "leadership?"  Most of what I want from people in positions of power / influence over me is to leave me the fuck alone, and in turn I assume that people who I have power / influence over also just want me to leave them the fuck alone. 

But apparently I am a tiny minority in this and everyone else is just sitting around desperately looking for leaders to lead them?

What I want from leadership is clear definition of goal and timeline, clear definition of who reports to whom, clear milestones, clear resource allocation, clarity about what comprises success at the task.  Pellucidity thy name is fredbear.  Sort of a combination of the Incident Command System, and good-practice software development techniques.  I loathe good-feels.  Sort of destroyed a meeting where X finished going over what was to happen, and then decided to have a touchy-feely round robin.  "Now fredbear, how do you feel about your assignment?"  "You mean like, breathless anticipation?  Queasy revulsion?  I can't believe you asked that.  How do I feel about my assignment?  I'm going to do it, accurately and on time.  I have no idea how I feel about it, and no idea what difference it would make.  How I feel about it has nothing to do with getting the assignment done."

It was a long route, but a logical one, from fredbear, problematic employee, to fredbear, problematic commenter.

I generally want leadership in the form of information and advocacy. If bigger corporate makes a rule and I find that it’s impeding my work, I don’t want my boss telling me “tough luck”. When crap is up in the air, I want leadership announcing their plans, finding answers and making decisions in a clear, efficient manner.

Pretty much these points.  Managers often try to avoid difficult systemic issues in favor of trying to assuage peoples' feelings through some second-tier strategy, like team building or feely feel exercises.  Management is hard and uncomfortable which is why most people likely don't want to be managers, and those that do often underestimate the challenge or prefer to engage in this pie-in-the-sky strategy so they can conjure up some solvable problems so they don't have to face the real ones.

To be fair, though, many people operate in a more... context dependent framework and they actually do produce better when they have some dreamy empowerment over their tasks. 

[ducky19]

Some relatives of mine, an elderly couple, have always been on the spendypants side despite being quite affluent and high-earning. They retired early and are now in their 70s but have saved only a few million, most of which is tied up in commercial real estate. About five years ago they moved out of one McMansion and into another even bigger one, which for a variety of reasons was mortgaged. Anyway, they just got a communication from their commercial tenant that due to COVID-19 the tenant needs a rent reduction to stay in business. The type of commercial tenants they have are "critical" per federal and local guidelines so they are staying open, but not all the locations are doing well. This combined with the stock market crash has them freaking out, but who in their right mind has a mortgage at age 70+? I do worry about this couple. They're a nice couple but not at all savvy financially.

They are 70+ with a few million?  I think they will make it fine until they die.

If they had a few million in cash or liquid investments, I'd be prone to agree with you. If most of it is tied up in commercial real estate though, I can see where they might be freaking out - especially having a mortgage! Real estate in general is a good investment, however it the SHTF and they have very little cash cushion, it could take a substantial amount of time to liquidate their property and potentially at a substantial discount. Underscores the importance of diversifying your investments!

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Some relatives of mine, an elderly couple, have always been on the spendypants side despite being quite affluent and high-earning. They retired early and are now in their 70s but have saved only a few million, most of which is tied up in commercial real estate. About five years ago they moved out of one McMansion and into another even bigger one, which for a variety of reasons was mortgaged. Anyway, they just got a communication from their commercial tenant that due to COVID-19 the tenant needs a rent reduction to stay in business. The type of commercial tenants they have are "critical" per federal and local guidelines so they are staying open, but not all the locations are doing well. This combined with the stock market crash has them freaking out, but who in their right mind has a mortgage at age 70+? I do worry about this couple. They're a nice couple but not at all savvy financially.

They are 70+ with a few million?  I think they will make it fine until they die.

If they had a few million in cash or liquid investments, I'd be prone to agree with you. If most of it is tied up in commercial real estate though, I can see where they might be freaking out - especially having a mortgage! Real estate in general is a good investment, however it the SHTF and they have very little cash cushion, it could take a substantial amount of time to liquidate their property and potentially at a substantial discount. Underscores the importance of diversifying your investments!

Update on the elderly couple. Most of their net worth is tied up in real estate and less-than-liquid possessions. The commercial properties and their non-real-estate investments produced more than enough cash flow until they bought the new house, which cost more than double the (paid-off) house they moved out of. It's not just the service on the mortgage debt; they've got an entire Diderot effect in progress. You see, the new house required about $40k for window treatments, $10k to have it repainted, several thousand for new furniture... etc... etc. I've seen the new house in question and the only thing about it that I like is the view. Originally they planned to pay off the mortgage when their last place sold, but the "improvements" to the fancier place ate up the principal. The end result is that their savings have been mostly drained and their non-real-estate income is only about 20% of what they need to cover their expenses. They also took on the living expenses of a 40+ year old child who moved in with them. Loads of fun. If anything happens to even one of the commercial tenants they will be up the creek without a paddle.

[SunnyDays]

40 K for window treatments!  That’s mind blowing!

[Taran Wanderer]

That seems excessive, but if you have a big house, even decent blinds can add up.  When we built our house, we designed it with essentially two windows for every "window".  For example, in the bedrooms, there is one fixed pane and one operable pane that opens like a door with a crank handle.  Guess what!  Two blinds needed instead of one!  Brilliant design, thank you.  We haven't put blinds in every window in house, but we have put blinds in something like 9 sets of windows with 22 total blinds.  It cost us $7,000 over about 5 years.  Fortunately the way the house is designed, only 4 of those blinds block views into the house from off of our lot.

$40,000 is an unfortunate number (so is $7,000), but it reflects more than just decisions on blinds - it's house and size and design decisions also.

[LWYRUP]

I am not particularly handy, but blinds I did.  You can go to home depot and buy them.  You just need to measure very carefully, and then be able to use a screwdriver, a drill and a stepladder. 

[SwordGuy]

That seems excessive, but if you have a big house, even decent blinds can add up.  When we built our house, we designed it with essentially two windows for every "window".  For example, in the bedrooms, there is one fixed pane and one operable pane that opens like a door with a crank handle.  Guess what!  Two blinds needed instead of one!  Brilliant design, thank you.  We haven't put blinds in every window in house, but we have put blinds in something like 9 sets of windows with 22 total blinds.  It cost us $7,000 over about 5 years.  Fortunately the way the house is designed, only 4 of those blinds block views into the house from off of our lot.

$40,000 is an unfortunate number (so is $7,000), but it reflects more than just decisions on blinds - it's house and size and design decisions also.

Wow.    I thought the $520 I just spent on 13 blinds was wastefully high.   I needed them to make a trashed rental rent-ready again, but didn't want to spend a lot of time at Lowes with a bazillion goobers who won't social distance and won't wear masks while I drove around town to find the best deal.   So I just ordered them online when I found some that I knew would work.

Wow again.   I can't imaging $7,000 OR $40,000 for window treatments. 

[almcclur]

My sister is a generally kind and reasonable person. She doesn't have terrible habits and our relationship isn't unhealthy, so I've never shared this because everyone else's stories are just so terrible it didn't seem to fit. But there is no where else I would dare complain about this and it does niggle at me so I'm going to do it here anonymously where it can't hurt anyone!

So my younger sister spent a lot of time in school. That's fine. She took out the loans herself and really followed her dreams, taking two years in foreign countries and then going to grad school. She worked during school. She's not some princess so I don't want to make her seem like she is. She graduated and got a mediocre job temporarily until she could find something better, all the while paying the min on her $30k loans. Fine.

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full. She didn't jump on it and wasn't overjoyed at the prospect so we looked at how she could do it in 2-3 years instead and really increase her standard of living. None of that ever happened, which is also fine.

She bought a nice house--not crazy, but nice. She's married now and they both have nice cars. Again, nothing crazy. They go out to eat regularly and she does the random clothing subscription box things that seem to be popular among this age group. It's the type of life that I put on hold for a few years so I could pay off my student loan debts. But to each her own.

The frustrating part is that she is forever posting on FB about how she (and all millennials) have gotten screwed with unmanageable student loan debt and how the man is crushing her soul. Lots of stuff from occupy democrats about how her student loans should be forgiven and no amount of financial education could have helped this problem. Like constantly. All her friends pipe in with approval and their own tales of woe and her real story makes me distrust every one of them. I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year, but I just wonder, did she forget that I know this? How can she say this stuff with a straight face?

Anyway, I told you it wasn't as terrible as most of these. But it's all I've got.

[ysette9]

My sister is a generally kind and reasonable person. She doesn't have terrible habits and our relationship isn't unhealthy, so I've never shared this because everyone else's stories are just so terrible it didn't seem to fit. But there is no where else I would dare complain about this and it does niggle at me so I'm going to do it here anonymously where it can't hurt anyone!

So my younger sister spent a lot of time in school. That's fine. She took out the loans herself and really followed her dreams, taking two years in foreign countries and then going to grad school. She worked during school. She's not some princess so I don't want to make her seem like she is. She graduated and got a mediocre job temporarily until she could find something better, all the while paying the min on her $30k loans. Fine.

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full. She didn't jump on it and wasn't overjoyed at the prospect so we looked at how she could do it in 2-3 years instead and really increase her standard of living. None of that ever happened, which is also fine.

She bought a nice house--not crazy, but nice. She's married now and they both have nice cars. Again, nothing crazy. They go out to eat regularly and she does the random clothing subscription box things that seem to be popular among this age group. It's the type of life that I put on hold for a few years so I could pay off my student loan debts. But to each her own.

The frustrating part is that she is forever posting on FB about how she (and all millennials) have gotten screwed with unmanageable student loan debt and how the man is crushing her soul. Lots of stuff from occupy democrats about how her student loans should be forgiven and no amount of financial education could have helped this problem. Like constantly. All her friends pipe in with approval and their own tales of woe and her real story makes me distrust every one of them. I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year, but I just wonder, did she forget that I know this? How can she say this stuff with a straight face?

Anyway, I told you it wasn't as terrible as most of these. But it's all I've got.

I think that is a fair gripe. The problem with people who didn’t make the responsible decisions and could have wiped out their debt is that they kill the sympathy for the people who really are in impossible situations. This slows the momentum needed to fix a system that allows children to take on massive amounts of unsecured debt that will haunt them to their graves. There should be checks and balances in place to prevent someone from borrowing $200k for a non-lucrative degree.

[SwordGuy]

My sister is a generally kind and reasonable person. She doesn't have terrible habits and our relationship isn't unhealthy, so I've never shared this because everyone else's stories are just so terrible it didn't seem to fit. But there is no where else I would dare complain about this and it does niggle at me so I'm going to do it here anonymously where it can't hurt anyone!

So my younger sister spent a lot of time in school. That's fine. She took out the loans herself and really followed her dreams, taking two years in foreign countries and then going to grad school. She worked during school. She's not some princess so I don't want to make her seem like she is. She graduated and got a mediocre job temporarily until she could find something better, all the while paying the min on her $30k loans. Fine.

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full. She didn't jump on it and wasn't overjoyed at the prospect so we looked at how she could do it in 2-3 years instead and really increase her standard of living. None of that ever happened, which is also fine.

She bought a nice house--not crazy, but nice. She's married now and they both have nice cars. Again, nothing crazy. They go out to eat regularly and she does the random clothing subscription box things that seem to be popular among this age group. It's the type of life that I put on hold for a few years so I could pay off my student loan debts. But to each her own.

The frustrating part is that she is forever posting on FB about how she (and all millennials) have gotten screwed with unmanageable student loan debt and how the man is crushing her soul. Lots of stuff from occupy democrats about how her student loans should be forgiven and no amount of financial education could have helped this problem. Like constantly. All her friends pipe in with approval and their own tales of woe and her real story makes me distrust every one of them. I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year, but I just wonder, did she forget that I know this? How can she say this stuff with a straight face?

Anyway, I told you it wasn't as terrible as most of these. But it's all I've got.

Tough love is an important action in life.

I would call her on it.

"Sis, I love you, but back when you first graduated I showed you how you could have easily paid off these student loans in a year.    You chose not to.   Choices have consequences, so stop whining about yours.  Nobody likes a whiner."

Then again, my weapon hand starts itching to pick up an axe and go all Lizzie Borden on whiners, so that might color my opinion on how to respond to her whining lies.

[SunnyDays]

 
I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year 

Why not?

[kina]

 
I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year 

Why not?

Because there's no point? The sister isn't going to change and their relationship would be damaged. Saying "I told you so" rarely goes over well, even when it is 100% the truth. Sometimes it's just better to say nothing.

[OtherJen]

 
I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year 

Why not?

Because there's no point? The sister isn't going to change and their relationship would be damaged. Saying "I told you so" rarely goes over well, even when it is 100% the truth. Sometimes it's just better to say nothing.

If the sister whines at AL-Mc-Lu directly, then I would consider it fair game to say something privately. If nothing else, the sister would probably not consider them a receptive target for financial whining in future. But no good will come of publicly shaming the sister in front of her friends on FB.

[DadJokes]

Anybody that whines on social media is fair game. Worst case scenario: you burn a bridge with that person (or the whole family if people would side with her). Up to AL-Mc-Lu if that's worth it.

But I don't put up with whining, so I'd totally do it.

[almcclur]

Yeah, no. The relationship is otherwise very good. Our whole family is remarkably drama free and she doesn't ask for my opinion personally on this debt anymore. I'm just venting the frustration a little, but I don't think there's actually anything productive to be done.

Occasionally I have made  small comments on other things she posts about how terrible debt is for her cohort with a seemingly benign "I think personal finance should be mandatory in high schools" or something like that, and she comes back hard about how it wouldn't help bc the system is rigged against them, blah blah gov't has to forgive the debt. It just blows my mind. She must literally have purged that whole conversation from her memory.

And thank you for the responses. It has been an ongoing act of self control to never comment about this and I feel like hopefully this gets it all out of my system.

[AlanStache]

People are wired differently and are more or less open to different ideas at different times.  I would not expect one conversation about diet and exercise to be sufficient to change all peoples habits.  On one given day a full conversation about paying off college debt maybe not have had any effect, where half a sentence in some other context may have changed everything or vice versa.  Actions have consequences and all that; just sometimes we in the forums need to keep perspective of how different what we are doing when viewed from the outside.  I know it all seems so simple once you are within the 'cult'.

[SunnyDays]

Well, like Simon and Garfunkel sang in The Boxer:  “All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” 

[gatortator]

best advice I have ever seen about how to deal with type of situation....

... I trecently learned about what seems to me to be a constructive way to handle someone who constantly complains to you about the same thing. It's sort of a three strikes thing:

Next time they bring it up: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What do you think you're going to do about it?"

Next time after that: "Yes, I remember you mentioning this before. What did you do about it?"

Third time: "We're talked about this before. If it's not important enough to you to do anything about it, then it's not important enough for us to waste our time talking about it. Until you start taking action to change what you're complaining about it, I don't think you and I should talk about it. <change subject>"

[SwordGuy]

best advice I have ever seen about how to deal with type of situation....

... I trecently learned about what seems to me to be a constructive way to handle someone who constantly complains to you about the same thing. It's sort of a three strikes thing:

Next time they bring it up: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What do you think you're going to do about it?"

Next time after that: "Yes, I remember you mentioning this before. What did you do about it?"

Third time: "We're talked about this before. If it's not important enough to you to do anything about it, then it's not important enough for us to waste our time talking about it. Until you start taking action to change what you're complaining about it, I don't think you and I should talk about it. <change subject>"

Fabulous!

[Psychstache]

Yeah, no. The relationship is otherwise very good. Our whole family is remarkably drama free and she doesn't ask for my opinion personally on this debt anymore. I'm just venting the frustration a little, but I don't think there's actually anything productive to be done.

Occasionally I have made  small comments on other things she posts about how terrible debt is for her cohort with a seemingly benign "I think personal finance should be mandatory in high schools" or something like that, and she comes back hard about how it wouldn't help bc the system is rigged against them, blah blah gov't has to forgive the debt. It just blows my mind. She must literally have purged that whole conversation from her memory.

And thank you for the responses. It has been an ongoing act of self control to never comment about this and I feel like hopefully this gets it all out of my system.

My guess would be that she has vague memories of you presenting her with some crazy idea of living like a monk to try and pay off her insurmountable debt and that the plan was way out of line and not realistic and wouldn't have been a sustainable way to live, ie the system is rigged.

So more revisionist history than forgetting.

[ysette9]

best advice I have ever seen about how to deal with type of situation....

... I trecently learned about what seems to me to be a constructive way to handle someone who constantly complains to you about the same thing. It's sort of a three strikes thing:

Next time they bring it up: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What do you think you're going to do about it?"

Next time after that: "Yes, I remember you mentioning this before. What did you do about it?"

Third time: "We're talked about this before. If it's not important enough to you to do anything about it, then it's not important enough for us to waste our time talking about it. Until you start taking action to change what you're complaining about it, I don't think you and I should talk about it. <change subject>"

Fabulous!

That is excellent advice

[remizidae]

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full.

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

[almcclur]

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full.

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

She was living basically like a college student with two roommates. Already had a junky paid off used car. Plus $30k was the total and she had been paying minimums for a couple of years so it was slightly less, but I don't remember what. The stars were aligned. I really thought, what's one more year of austerity to knock this thing out fast? But 2-3 years was really very reasonable.

Edit to add: I forgot I was also factoring in a summer job that paid roughly $3000 for a month of work when school was out. She has said she's too wiped out after the school year to do the summer job, which I can understand bc kids are crazy! But anyway, that's how the numbers worked out.

[zolotiyeruki]

Too wiped out after a year of school to do a summer job?  Really?  C'mon, now.  I studied engineering and carried a far heavier course load than normal, and still had more than enough time for an active social life and plenty of video games.

And really, if school were really that strenuous, how much time do you really need to recover?  Or perhaps it's all the...ah...extracurriculars she needed a break from? :P

[PMG]

Sounds like she was the teacher. I’m not a teacher but lived with a roommate during her first year. She went to bed by 7pm every night and was just miserable and exhausted. Her second year she had much more energy, but that first year took everything out of her.

[zolotiyeruki]

Sounds like she was the teacher. I’m not a teacher but lived with a roommate during her first year. She went to bed by 7pm every night and was just miserable and exhausted. Her second year she had much more energy, but that first year took everything out of her.

Ah, that makes so much more sense!

[remizidae]

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full.

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

She was living basically like a college student with two roommates. Already had a junky paid off used car. Plus $30k was the total and she had been paying minimums for a couple of years so it was slightly less, but I don't remember what. The stars were aligned. I really thought, what's one more year of austerity to knock this thing out fast? But 2-3 years was really very reasonable.

Edit to add: I forgot I was also factoring in a summer job that paid roughly $3000 for a month of work when school was out. She has said she's too wiped out after the school year to do the summer job, which I can understand bc kids are crazy! But anyway, that's how the numbers worked out.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity :)

[Master of None]

You know...some days I can't help but shake my head at my father's decision making. He and my Mom have been furloughed since the beginning of this pandemic as they both work in a casino. They haven't always made the best financial decisions and did a shit job at teaching their children about personal finance, except how not to do it. Well here are a few hits from over the past couple 2 months. Since they are off of work they have been doing some home renovations which seem reasonable. Well if you are doing some updating you need new tools so in comes a new table saw and a new miter saw. I would say at minimum $500-$600 so not horrible if you will be using it for a lot of projects. Lots of building materials purchased for said projects. Now I will say that they have done a great job completing those projects and they do look really good. They have a few more projects on their list but I can almost bet some of you can see what is coming next. Just got word of a new purchase made today. I'll put it in a spoiler below if you would like to take a guess before looking. I try not to stress about their decisions since they differ so much from what I would do, but its their money and hopefully it doesn't bite them in the butt in the future.

 

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

edited to fix spelling

[jinga nation]

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

Oof! I know Lowes and HD have truck rentals... I can't even imagine the.... I have to congratulate the truck salesman.

[penguintroopers]

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

Oof! I know Lowes and HD have truck rentals... I can't even imagine the.... I have to congratulate the truck salesman.

I underestimated with fancy-pants lawnmower.

Now, how on earth did two furloughed employees get approved for the loan?!

[GreenToTheCore]

Just got word of a new purchase made today.

Damn.
How has this become a normal expectation?

[Wrenchturner]

You know...some days I can't help but shake my head at my father's decision making. He and my Mom have been furloughed since the beginning of this pandemic as they both work in a casino. They haven't always made the best financial decisions and did a shit job at teaching their children about personal finance, except how not to do it. Well here are a few hits from over the past couple 2 months. Since they are off of work they have been doing some home renovations which seem reasonable. Well if you are doing some updating you need new tools so in comes a new table saw and a new miter saw. I would say at minimum $500-$600 so not horrible if you will be using it for a lot of projects. Lots of building materials purchased for said projects. Now I will say that they have done a great job completing those projects and they do look really good. They have a few more projects on their list but I can almost bet some of you can see what is coming next. Just got word of a new purchase made today. I'll put it in a spoiler below if you would like to take a guess before looking. I try not to stress about their decisions since they differ so much from what I would do, but its their money and hopefully it doesn't bite them in the butt in the future.

 

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

edited to fix spelling

Lol I guessed it would be a truck!

[eyesonthehorizon]

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

I didn't see if it was mentioned where in the country the sister was, but $1440/mo is substantially more than I'm living on now, and I'm a decade out from my student days, with lots of fancy tastes in imported cheese, alcohol, and whatever tech toys I like - my rent eats $800/mo. You can get a lot of life out of a few hundred bucks every month!

If I'd had access to her kind of income 'a couple years' after my schooling, and only $30k of student debt after travel and grad school (I had double that after undergrad, and I stopped there) I'd be fat-FIREd by now. I can definitely see why hearing a charmed, bliss-chasing life like that cast as some tale of deprivation and woe would be irksome.

[Tass]

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

I didn't see if it was mentioned where in the country the sister was, but $1440/mo is substantially more than I'm living on now, and I'm a decade out from my student days, with lots of fancy tastes in imported cheese, alcohol, and whatever tech toys I like - my rent eats $800/mo. You can get a lot of life out of a few hundred bucks every month!

Yeah, I spend under $1200/month in a HCOLA. Granted, I am a student and live like one, but we've already established this person lived with roommates, which is the most important prerequisite.

Trying not to get into any moral judgements on the sister here, but the idea that $1450/month is infeasible is a silly one for this forum.

Edit: looked up my actual average spending.

[Master of None]

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

Oof! I know Lowes and HD have truck rentals... I can't even imagine the.... I have to congratulate the truck salesman.

I was talking with my mother about this last night and I asked why he decided to go with a truck at this time while everything is so uncertain. She stated that he has been talking about getting one for over a year and he was tired of borrowing them from family members. That's right, we have at least 3 family members that live within 15 miles that own trucks. Now I get not wanting to overdue it and ask too much but come on. Hell, I bought a "truck", 2011 Honda Ridgeline, last year but we do live 2.5 hours away. So i don't hate trucks I just thought maybe buy a 10-15 year old beater if you are just wanting to haul stuff and keep your other paid off car. I do have to give my father some credit. He had his last car for 7 years. I'm 36 and I have never seen him keep a vehicle that long. It has constantly been a cycle of new shiny objects, but come on man. And the fact that he has been talking about doing it for a year and just finally did it does so a little self control. Just goes to show how when normal life is thrown out of wack our decision making can suffer. I mean we do have a thread on the MMM forum talking about being Unmustachian during this crisis. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/unmustachian-things-we're-doing-due-to-coronavirus/ Even the followers of the stache don't always make the right choices.

[Sugaree]

Speaking of trucks, my brother called me today to see if I was still looking for a truck for my husband (no, he decided to replace the motor in his old one instead of buying a new one and this was two years ago now).  He's trying to sell his 2004 Ranger to raise the downpayment on a 2013 Wrangler.