Relatives who just don't get it

[LWYRUP]

... the stress of the pandemic is pushing people who are normally stable/functional but have some minor issues over the edge into a bigger problem.

Spot on.  The president of a group I volunteer for has largely forgotten what the group and the board actually do, in the rush of dumping boluses of unsnopsed internet drivel about Covid-19 onto us.  I guess tactfully one says it has 'touched a nerve,' but what it really seems is that he is grasping at this to keep from disintegrating or is gratifying some self-ideal of 'leadership.'

Maybe mustachians will relate to this.  Does anyone else get irritated about all the pop-business talk about "leadership?"  Most of what I want from people in positions of power / influence over me is to leave me the fuck alone, and in turn I assume that people who I have power / influence over also just want me to leave them the fuck alone. 

But apparently I am a tiny minority in this and everyone else is just sitting around desperately looking for leaders to lead them? 

[Wrenchturner]

Maybe mustachians will relate to this.  Does anyone else get irritated about all the pop-business talk about "leadership?"  Most of what I want from people in positions of power / influence over me is to leave me the fuck alone, and in turn I assume that people who I have power / influence over also just want me to leave them the fuck alone. 

But apparently I am a tiny minority in this and everyone else is just sitting around desperately looking for leaders to lead them?

I think this is usually a type of bureaucratic busybodying.  If they can mire themselves in the rabbit hole of "leadership", they can justify their own salaried existence and probably hire more people like them to discuss leadership with.

[rockstache]

I think a lot of people DO want to be led but can’t/won’t admit it, or else don’t spend much time considering it. I think the overlap between that group and mustachians is probably quite small.

[penguintroopers]

I generally want leadership in the form of information and advocacy. If bigger corporate makes a rule and I find that it’s impeding my work, I don’t want my boss telling me “tough luck”. When crap is up in the air, I want leadership announcing their plans, finding answers and making decisions in a clear, efficient manner.

[fredbear]

Maybe mustachians will relate to this.  Does anyone else get irritated about all the pop-business talk about "leadership?"  Most of what I want from people in positions of power / influence over me is to leave me the fuck alone, and in turn I assume that people who I have power / influence over also just want me to leave them the fuck alone. 

But apparently I am a tiny minority in this and everyone else is just sitting around desperately looking for leaders to lead them?

What I want from leadership is clear definition of goal and timeline, clear definition of who reports to whom, clear milestones, clear resource allocation, clarity about what comprises success at the task.  Pellucidity thy name is fredbear.  Sort of a combination of the Incident Command System, and good-practice software development techniques.  I loathe good-feels.  Sort of destroyed a meeting where X finished going over what was to happen, and then decided to have a touchy-feely round robin.  "Now fredbear, how do you feel about your assignment?"  "You mean like, breathless anticipation?  Queasy revulsion?  I can't believe you asked that.  How do I feel about my assignment?  I'm going to do it, accurately and on time.  I have no idea how I feel about it, and no idea what difference it would make.  How I feel about it has nothing to do with getting the assignment done."

It was a long route, but a logical one, from fredbear, problematic employee, to fredbear, problematic commenter.

[okonumiyaki]

Some relatives of mine, an elderly couple, have always been on the spendypants side despite being quite affluent and high-earning. They retired early and are now in their 70s but have saved only a few million, most of which is tied up in commercial real estate. About five years ago they moved out of one McMansion and into another even bigger one, which for a variety of reasons was mortgaged. Anyway, they just got a communication from their commercial tenant that due to COVID-19 the tenant needs a rent reduction to stay in business. The type of commercial tenants they have are "critical" per federal and local guidelines so they are staying open, but not all the locations are doing well. This combined with the stock market crash has them freaking out, but who in their right mind has a mortgage at age 70+? I do worry about this couple. They're a nice couple but not at all savvy financially.

They are 70+ with a few million?  I think they will make it fine until they die.

[Wrenchturner]

Maybe mustachians will relate to this.  Does anyone else get irritated about all the pop-business talk about "leadership?"  Most of what I want from people in positions of power / influence over me is to leave me the fuck alone, and in turn I assume that people who I have power / influence over also just want me to leave them the fuck alone. 

But apparently I am a tiny minority in this and everyone else is just sitting around desperately looking for leaders to lead them?

What I want from leadership is clear definition of goal and timeline, clear definition of who reports to whom, clear milestones, clear resource allocation, clarity about what comprises success at the task.  Pellucidity thy name is fredbear.  Sort of a combination of the Incident Command System, and good-practice software development techniques.  I loathe good-feels.  Sort of destroyed a meeting where X finished going over what was to happen, and then decided to have a touchy-feely round robin.  "Now fredbear, how do you feel about your assignment?"  "You mean like, breathless anticipation?  Queasy revulsion?  I can't believe you asked that.  How do I feel about my assignment?  I'm going to do it, accurately and on time.  I have no idea how I feel about it, and no idea what difference it would make.  How I feel about it has nothing to do with getting the assignment done."

It was a long route, but a logical one, from fredbear, problematic employee, to fredbear, problematic commenter.

I generally want leadership in the form of information and advocacy. If bigger corporate makes a rule and I find that it’s impeding my work, I don’t want my boss telling me “tough luck”. When crap is up in the air, I want leadership announcing their plans, finding answers and making decisions in a clear, efficient manner.

Pretty much these points.  Managers often try to avoid difficult systemic issues in favor of trying to assuage peoples' feelings through some second-tier strategy, like team building or feely feel exercises.  Management is hard and uncomfortable which is why most people likely don't want to be managers, and those that do often underestimate the challenge or prefer to engage in this pie-in-the-sky strategy so they can conjure up some solvable problems so they don't have to face the real ones.

To be fair, though, many people operate in a more... context dependent framework and they actually do produce better when they have some dreamy empowerment over their tasks. 

[ducky19]

Some relatives of mine, an elderly couple, have always been on the spendypants side despite being quite affluent and high-earning. They retired early and are now in their 70s but have saved only a few million, most of which is tied up in commercial real estate. About five years ago they moved out of one McMansion and into another even bigger one, which for a variety of reasons was mortgaged. Anyway, they just got a communication from their commercial tenant that due to COVID-19 the tenant needs a rent reduction to stay in business. The type of commercial tenants they have are "critical" per federal and local guidelines so they are staying open, but not all the locations are doing well. This combined with the stock market crash has them freaking out, but who in their right mind has a mortgage at age 70+? I do worry about this couple. They're a nice couple but not at all savvy financially.

They are 70+ with a few million?  I think they will make it fine until they die.

If they had a few million in cash or liquid investments, I'd be prone to agree with you. If most of it is tied up in commercial real estate though, I can see where they might be freaking out - especially having a mortgage! Real estate in general is a good investment, however it the SHTF and they have very little cash cushion, it could take a substantial amount of time to liquidate their property and potentially at a substantial discount. Underscores the importance of diversifying your investments!

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Some relatives of mine, an elderly couple, have always been on the spendypants side despite being quite affluent and high-earning. They retired early and are now in their 70s but have saved only a few million, most of which is tied up in commercial real estate. About five years ago they moved out of one McMansion and into another even bigger one, which for a variety of reasons was mortgaged. Anyway, they just got a communication from their commercial tenant that due to COVID-19 the tenant needs a rent reduction to stay in business. The type of commercial tenants they have are "critical" per federal and local guidelines so they are staying open, but not all the locations are doing well. This combined with the stock market crash has them freaking out, but who in their right mind has a mortgage at age 70+? I do worry about this couple. They're a nice couple but not at all savvy financially.

They are 70+ with a few million?  I think they will make it fine until they die.

If they had a few million in cash or liquid investments, I'd be prone to agree with you. If most of it is tied up in commercial real estate though, I can see where they might be freaking out - especially having a mortgage! Real estate in general is a good investment, however it the SHTF and they have very little cash cushion, it could take a substantial amount of time to liquidate their property and potentially at a substantial discount. Underscores the importance of diversifying your investments!

Update on the elderly couple. Most of their net worth is tied up in real estate and less-than-liquid possessions. The commercial properties and their non-real-estate investments produced more than enough cash flow until they bought the new house, which cost more than double the (paid-off) house they moved out of. It's not just the service on the mortgage debt; they've got an entire Diderot effect in progress. You see, the new house required about $40k for window treatments, $10k to have it repainted, several thousand for new furniture... etc... etc. I've seen the new house in question and the only thing about it that I like is the view. Originally they planned to pay off the mortgage when their last place sold, but the "improvements" to the fancier place ate up the principal. The end result is that their savings have been mostly drained and their non-real-estate income is only about 20% of what they need to cover their expenses. They also took on the living expenses of a 40+ year old child who moved in with them. Loads of fun. If anything happens to even one of the commercial tenants they will be up the creek without a paddle.

[SunnyDays]

40 K for window treatments!  That’s mind blowing!

[Taran Wanderer]

That seems excessive, but if you have a big house, even decent blinds can add up.  When we built our house, we designed it with essentially two windows for every "window".  For example, in the bedrooms, there is one fixed pane and one operable pane that opens like a door with a crank handle.  Guess what!  Two blinds needed instead of one!  Brilliant design, thank you.  We haven't put blinds in every window in house, but we have put blinds in something like 9 sets of windows with 22 total blinds.  It cost us $7,000 over about 5 years.  Fortunately the way the house is designed, only 4 of those blinds block views into the house from off of our lot.

$40,000 is an unfortunate number (so is $7,000), but it reflects more than just decisions on blinds - it's house and size and design decisions also.

[LWYRUP]

I am not particularly handy, but blinds I did.  You can go to home depot and buy them.  You just need to measure very carefully, and then be able to use a screwdriver, a drill and a stepladder. 

[SwordGuy]

That seems excessive, but if you have a big house, even decent blinds can add up.  When we built our house, we designed it with essentially two windows for every "window".  For example, in the bedrooms, there is one fixed pane and one operable pane that opens like a door with a crank handle.  Guess what!  Two blinds needed instead of one!  Brilliant design, thank you.  We haven't put blinds in every window in house, but we have put blinds in something like 9 sets of windows with 22 total blinds.  It cost us $7,000 over about 5 years.  Fortunately the way the house is designed, only 4 of those blinds block views into the house from off of our lot.

$40,000 is an unfortunate number (so is $7,000), but it reflects more than just decisions on blinds - it's house and size and design decisions also.

Wow.    I thought the $520 I just spent on 13 blinds was wastefully high.   I needed them to make a trashed rental rent-ready again, but didn't want to spend a lot of time at Lowes with a bazillion goobers who won't social distance and won't wear masks while I drove around town to find the best deal.   So I just ordered them online when I found some that I knew would work.

Wow again.   I can't imaging $7,000 OR $40,000 for window treatments. 

[almcclur]

My sister is a generally kind and reasonable person. She doesn't have terrible habits and our relationship isn't unhealthy, so I've never shared this because everyone else's stories are just so terrible it didn't seem to fit. But there is no where else I would dare complain about this and it does niggle at me so I'm going to do it here anonymously where it can't hurt anyone!

So my younger sister spent a lot of time in school. That's fine. She took out the loans herself and really followed her dreams, taking two years in foreign countries and then going to grad school. She worked during school. She's not some princess so I don't want to make her seem like she is. She graduated and got a mediocre job temporarily until she could find something better, all the while paying the min on her $30k loans. Fine.

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full. She didn't jump on it and wasn't overjoyed at the prospect so we looked at how she could do it in 2-3 years instead and really increase her standard of living. None of that ever happened, which is also fine.

She bought a nice house--not crazy, but nice. She's married now and they both have nice cars. Again, nothing crazy. They go out to eat regularly and she does the random clothing subscription box things that seem to be popular among this age group. It's the type of life that I put on hold for a few years so I could pay off my student loan debts. But to each her own.

The frustrating part is that she is forever posting on FB about how she (and all millennials) have gotten screwed with unmanageable student loan debt and how the man is crushing her soul. Lots of stuff from occupy democrats about how her student loans should be forgiven and no amount of financial education could have helped this problem. Like constantly. All her friends pipe in with approval and their own tales of woe and her real story makes me distrust every one of them. I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year, but I just wonder, did she forget that I know this? How can she say this stuff with a straight face?

Anyway, I told you it wasn't as terrible as most of these. But it's all I've got.

[ysette9]

My sister is a generally kind and reasonable person. She doesn't have terrible habits and our relationship isn't unhealthy, so I've never shared this because everyone else's stories are just so terrible it didn't seem to fit. But there is no where else I would dare complain about this and it does niggle at me so I'm going to do it here anonymously where it can't hurt anyone!

So my younger sister spent a lot of time in school. That's fine. She took out the loans herself and really followed her dreams, taking two years in foreign countries and then going to grad school. She worked during school. She's not some princess so I don't want to make her seem like she is. She graduated and got a mediocre job temporarily until she could find something better, all the while paying the min on her $30k loans. Fine.

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full. She didn't jump on it and wasn't overjoyed at the prospect so we looked at how she could do it in 2-3 years instead and really increase her standard of living. None of that ever happened, which is also fine.

She bought a nice house--not crazy, but nice. She's married now and they both have nice cars. Again, nothing crazy. They go out to eat regularly and she does the random clothing subscription box things that seem to be popular among this age group. It's the type of life that I put on hold for a few years so I could pay off my student loan debts. But to each her own.

The frustrating part is that she is forever posting on FB about how she (and all millennials) have gotten screwed with unmanageable student loan debt and how the man is crushing her soul. Lots of stuff from occupy democrats about how her student loans should be forgiven and no amount of financial education could have helped this problem. Like constantly. All her friends pipe in with approval and their own tales of woe and her real story makes me distrust every one of them. I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year, but I just wonder, did she forget that I know this? How can she say this stuff with a straight face?

Anyway, I told you it wasn't as terrible as most of these. But it's all I've got.

I think that is a fair gripe. The problem with people who didn’t make the responsible decisions and could have wiped out their debt is that they kill the sympathy for the people who really are in impossible situations. This slows the momentum needed to fix a system that allows children to take on massive amounts of unsecured debt that will haunt them to their graves. There should be checks and balances in place to prevent someone from borrowing $200k for a non-lucrative degree.

[SwordGuy]

My sister is a generally kind and reasonable person. She doesn't have terrible habits and our relationship isn't unhealthy, so I've never shared this because everyone else's stories are just so terrible it didn't seem to fit. But there is no where else I would dare complain about this and it does niggle at me so I'm going to do it here anonymously where it can't hurt anyone!

So my younger sister spent a lot of time in school. That's fine. She took out the loans herself and really followed her dreams, taking two years in foreign countries and then going to grad school. She worked during school. She's not some princess so I don't want to make her seem like she is. She graduated and got a mediocre job temporarily until she could find something better, all the while paying the min on her $30k loans. Fine.

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full. She didn't jump on it and wasn't overjoyed at the prospect so we looked at how she could do it in 2-3 years instead and really increase her standard of living. None of that ever happened, which is also fine.

She bought a nice house--not crazy, but nice. She's married now and they both have nice cars. Again, nothing crazy. They go out to eat regularly and she does the random clothing subscription box things that seem to be popular among this age group. It's the type of life that I put on hold for a few years so I could pay off my student loan debts. But to each her own.

The frustrating part is that she is forever posting on FB about how she (and all millennials) have gotten screwed with unmanageable student loan debt and how the man is crushing her soul. Lots of stuff from occupy democrats about how her student loans should be forgiven and no amount of financial education could have helped this problem. Like constantly. All her friends pipe in with approval and their own tales of woe and her real story makes me distrust every one of them. I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year, but I just wonder, did she forget that I know this? How can she say this stuff with a straight face?

Anyway, I told you it wasn't as terrible as most of these. But it's all I've got.

Tough love is an important action in life.

I would call her on it.

"Sis, I love you, but back when you first graduated I showed you how you could have easily paid off these student loans in a year.    You chose not to.   Choices have consequences, so stop whining about yours.  Nobody likes a whiner."

Then again, my weapon hand starts itching to pick up an axe and go all Lizzie Borden on whiners, so that might color my opinion on how to respond to her whining lies.

[SunnyDays]

 
I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year 

Why not?

[kina]

 
I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year 

Why not?

Because there's no point? The sister isn't going to change and their relationship would be damaged. Saying "I told you so" rarely goes over well, even when it is 100% the truth. Sometimes it's just better to say nothing.

[OtherJen]

 
I'm obviously not going to pipe up and remind her of how she could easily have paid them all off in one year 

Why not?

Because there's no point? The sister isn't going to change and their relationship would be damaged. Saying "I told you so" rarely goes over well, even when it is 100% the truth. Sometimes it's just better to say nothing.

If the sister whines at AL-Mc-Lu directly, then I would consider it fair game to say something privately. If nothing else, the sister would probably not consider them a receptive target for financial whining in future. But no good will come of publicly shaming the sister in front of her friends on FB.

[DadJokes]

Anybody that whines on social media is fair game. Worst case scenario: you burn a bridge with that person (or the whole family if people would side with her). Up to AL-Mc-Lu if that's worth it.

But I don't put up with whining, so I'd totally do it.

[almcclur]

Yeah, no. The relationship is otherwise very good. Our whole family is remarkably drama free and she doesn't ask for my opinion personally on this debt anymore. I'm just venting the frustration a little, but I don't think there's actually anything productive to be done.

Occasionally I have made  small comments on other things she posts about how terrible debt is for her cohort with a seemingly benign "I think personal finance should be mandatory in high schools" or something like that, and she comes back hard about how it wouldn't help bc the system is rigged against them, blah blah gov't has to forgive the debt. It just blows my mind. She must literally have purged that whole conversation from her memory.

And thank you for the responses. It has been an ongoing act of self control to never comment about this and I feel like hopefully this gets it all out of my system.

[AlanStache]

People are wired differently and are more or less open to different ideas at different times.  I would not expect one conversation about diet and exercise to be sufficient to change all peoples habits.  On one given day a full conversation about paying off college debt maybe not have had any effect, where half a sentence in some other context may have changed everything or vice versa.  Actions have consequences and all that; just sometimes we in the forums need to keep perspective of how different what we are doing when viewed from the outside.  I know it all seems so simple once you are within the 'cult'.

[SunnyDays]

Well, like Simon and Garfunkel sang in The Boxer:  “All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” 

[gatortator]

best advice I have ever seen about how to deal with type of situation....

... I trecently learned about what seems to me to be a constructive way to handle someone who constantly complains to you about the same thing. It's sort of a three strikes thing:

Next time they bring it up: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What do you think you're going to do about it?"

Next time after that: "Yes, I remember you mentioning this before. What did you do about it?"

Third time: "We're talked about this before. If it's not important enough to you to do anything about it, then it's not important enough for us to waste our time talking about it. Until you start taking action to change what you're complaining about it, I don't think you and I should talk about it. <change subject>"

[SwordGuy]

best advice I have ever seen about how to deal with type of situation....

... I trecently learned about what seems to me to be a constructive way to handle someone who constantly complains to you about the same thing. It's sort of a three strikes thing:

Next time they bring it up: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What do you think you're going to do about it?"

Next time after that: "Yes, I remember you mentioning this before. What did you do about it?"

Third time: "We're talked about this before. If it's not important enough to you to do anything about it, then it's not important enough for us to waste our time talking about it. Until you start taking action to change what you're complaining about it, I don't think you and I should talk about it. <change subject>"

Fabulous!

[Psychstache]

Yeah, no. The relationship is otherwise very good. Our whole family is remarkably drama free and she doesn't ask for my opinion personally on this debt anymore. I'm just venting the frustration a little, but I don't think there's actually anything productive to be done.

Occasionally I have made  small comments on other things she posts about how terrible debt is for her cohort with a seemingly benign "I think personal finance should be mandatory in high schools" or something like that, and she comes back hard about how it wouldn't help bc the system is rigged against them, blah blah gov't has to forgive the debt. It just blows my mind. She must literally have purged that whole conversation from her memory.

And thank you for the responses. It has been an ongoing act of self control to never comment about this and I feel like hopefully this gets it all out of my system.

My guess would be that she has vague memories of you presenting her with some crazy idea of living like a monk to try and pay off her insurmountable debt and that the plan was way out of line and not realistic and wouldn't have been a sustainable way to live, ie the system is rigged.

So more revisionist history than forgetting.

[ysette9]

best advice I have ever seen about how to deal with type of situation....

... I trecently learned about what seems to me to be a constructive way to handle someone who constantly complains to you about the same thing. It's sort of a three strikes thing:

Next time they bring it up: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What do you think you're going to do about it?"

Next time after that: "Yes, I remember you mentioning this before. What did you do about it?"

Third time: "We're talked about this before. If it's not important enough to you to do anything about it, then it's not important enough for us to waste our time talking about it. Until you start taking action to change what you're complaining about it, I don't think you and I should talk about it. <change subject>"

Fabulous!

That is excellent advice

[remizidae]

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full.

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

[almcclur]

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full.

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

She was living basically like a college student with two roommates. Already had a junky paid off used car. Plus $30k was the total and she had been paying minimums for a couple of years so it was slightly less, but I don't remember what. The stars were aligned. I really thought, what's one more year of austerity to knock this thing out fast? But 2-3 years was really very reasonable.

Edit to add: I forgot I was also factoring in a summer job that paid roughly $3000 for a month of work when school was out. She has said she's too wiped out after the school year to do the summer job, which I can understand bc kids are crazy! But anyway, that's how the numbers worked out.

[zolotiyeruki]

Too wiped out after a year of school to do a summer job?  Really?  C'mon, now.  I studied engineering and carried a far heavier course load than normal, and still had more than enough time for an active social life and plenty of video games.

And really, if school were really that strenuous, how much time do you really need to recover?  Or perhaps it's all the...ah...extracurriculars she needed a break from? :P

[PMG]

Sounds like she was the teacher. I’m not a teacher but lived with a roommate during her first year. She went to bed by 7pm every night and was just miserable and exhausted. Her second year she had much more energy, but that first year took everything out of her.

[zolotiyeruki]

Sounds like she was the teacher. I’m not a teacher but lived with a roommate during her first year. She went to bed by 7pm every night and was just miserable and exhausted. Her second year she had much more energy, but that first year took everything out of her.

Ah, that makes so much more sense!

[remizidae]

So after a couple of years she got a nice solid teaching job making $60k. She was excited and called to talk to me about the finances bc I'm the one in the family people get financial advice from. I outlined a pretty simple plan to apply all her new extra money to her student loans for ONE year, and even included an extra $400/month for fun discretionary spending so she didn't feel like she was suffering too much. At the end of one year her loans would be paid in full.

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

She was living basically like a college student with two roommates. Already had a junky paid off used car. Plus $30k was the total and she had been paying minimums for a couple of years so it was slightly less, but I don't remember what. The stars were aligned. I really thought, what's one more year of austerity to knock this thing out fast? But 2-3 years was really very reasonable.

Edit to add: I forgot I was also factoring in a summer job that paid roughly $3000 for a month of work when school was out. She has said she's too wiped out after the school year to do the summer job, which I can understand bc kids are crazy! But anyway, that's how the numbers worked out.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity :)

[Master of None]

You know...some days I can't help but shake my head at my father's decision making. He and my Mom have been furloughed since the beginning of this pandemic as they both work in a casino. They haven't always made the best financial decisions and did a shit job at teaching their children about personal finance, except how not to do it. Well here are a few hits from over the past couple 2 months. Since they are off of work they have been doing some home renovations which seem reasonable. Well if you are doing some updating you need new tools so in comes a new table saw and a new miter saw. I would say at minimum $500-$600 so not horrible if you will be using it for a lot of projects. Lots of building materials purchased for said projects. Now I will say that they have done a great job completing those projects and they do look really good. They have a few more projects on their list but I can almost bet some of you can see what is coming next. Just got word of a new purchase made today. I'll put it in a spoiler below if you would like to take a guess before looking. I try not to stress about their decisions since they differ so much from what I would do, but its their money and hopefully it doesn't bite them in the butt in the future.

 

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

edited to fix spelling

[jinga nation]

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

Oof! I know Lowes and HD have truck rentals... I can't even imagine the.... I have to congratulate the truck salesman.

[penguintroopers]

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

Oof! I know Lowes and HD have truck rentals... I can't even imagine the.... I have to congratulate the truck salesman.

I underestimated with fancy-pants lawnmower.

Now, how on earth did two furloughed employees get approved for the loan?!

[GreenToTheCore]

Just got word of a new purchase made today.

Damn.
How has this become a normal expectation?

[Wrenchturner]

You know...some days I can't help but shake my head at my father's decision making. He and my Mom have been furloughed since the beginning of this pandemic as they both work in a casino. They haven't always made the best financial decisions and did a shit job at teaching their children about personal finance, except how not to do it. Well here are a few hits from over the past couple 2 months. Since they are off of work they have been doing some home renovations which seem reasonable. Well if you are doing some updating you need new tools so in comes a new table saw and a new miter saw. I would say at minimum $500-$600 so not horrible if you will be using it for a lot of projects. Lots of building materials purchased for said projects. Now I will say that they have done a great job completing those projects and they do look really good. They have a few more projects on their list but I can almost bet some of you can see what is coming next. Just got word of a new purchase made today. I'll put it in a spoiler below if you would like to take a guess before looking. I try not to stress about their decisions since they differ so much from what I would do, but its their money and hopefully it doesn't bite them in the butt in the future.

 

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

edited to fix spelling

Lol I guessed it would be a truck!

[eyesonthehorizon]

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

I didn't see if it was mentioned where in the country the sister was, but $1440/mo is substantially more than I'm living on now, and I'm a decade out from my student days, with lots of fancy tastes in imported cheese, alcohol, and whatever tech toys I like - my rent eats $800/mo. You can get a lot of life out of a few hundred bucks every month!

If I'd had access to her kind of income 'a couple years' after my schooling, and only $30k of student debt after travel and grad school (I had double that after undergrad, and I stopped there) I'd be fat-FIREd by now. I can definitely see why hearing a charmed, bliss-chasing life like that cast as some tale of deprivation and woe would be irksome.

[Tass]

I don't  understand how it would be possible to pay $30k of loans in one year on a $60k income. Using very rough numbers, she's taking home about 47k after taxes. If 30k goes to loans, she's left with $1441/month. At least 500-1000 of that goes to rent or mortgage. I just don't see how that's feasible. Unless she had free housing or something?

Edit: now, stretch it to 3-4 years and it would be feasible.

I didn't see if it was mentioned where in the country the sister was, but $1440/mo is substantially more than I'm living on now, and I'm a decade out from my student days, with lots of fancy tastes in imported cheese, alcohol, and whatever tech toys I like - my rent eats $800/mo. You can get a lot of life out of a few hundred bucks every month!

Yeah, I spend under $1200/month in a HCOLA. Granted, I am a student and live like one, but we've already established this person lived with roommates, which is the most important prerequisite.

Trying not to get into any moral judgements on the sister here, but the idea that $1450/month is infeasible is a silly one for this forum.

Edit: looked up my actual average spending.

[Master of None]

Spoiler: show

New purchase= 2020 Ford F-150 quad cab. Needed a truck to haul all those construction materials for household projects

Oof! I know Lowes and HD have truck rentals... I can't even imagine the.... I have to congratulate the truck salesman.

I was talking with my mother about this last night and I asked why he decided to go with a truck at this time while everything is so uncertain. She stated that he has been talking about getting one for over a year and he was tired of borrowing them from family members. That's right, we have at least 3 family members that live within 15 miles that own trucks. Now I get not wanting to overdue it and ask too much but come on. Hell, I bought a "truck", 2011 Honda Ridgeline, last year but we do live 2.5 hours away. So i don't hate trucks I just thought maybe buy a 10-15 year old beater if you are just wanting to haul stuff and keep your other paid off car. I do have to give my father some credit. He had his last car for 7 years. I'm 36 and I have never seen him keep a vehicle that long. It has constantly been a cycle of new shiny objects, but come on man. And the fact that he has been talking about doing it for a year and just finally did it does so a little self control. Just goes to show how when normal life is thrown out of wack our decision making can suffer. I mean we do have a thread on the MMM forum talking about being Unmustachian during this crisis. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/unmustachian-things-we're-doing-due-to-coronavirus/ Even the followers of the stache don't always make the right choices.

[Sugaree]

Speaking of trucks, my brother called me today to see if I was still looking for a truck for my husband (no, he decided to replace the motor in his old one instead of buying a new one and this was two years ago now).  He's trying to sell his 2004 Ranger to raise the downpayment on a 2013 Wrangler.

[ysette9]

Speaking of trucks, my brother called me today to see if I was still looking for a truck for my husband (no, he decided to replace the motor in his old one instead of buying a new one and this was two years ago now).  He's trying to sell his 2004 Ranger to raise the downpayment on a 2013 Wrangler.

To raise a down payment on a used car....

Everything about that phrase screams “I can’t afford this!” to me.

[Paul der Krake]

Jeep Wranglers are terrible cars when they roll off the assembly line...

Can't imagine what a 7 year old Jeep Wrangler would be like. Shouldn't they pay him to take it off their hands?

[LWYRUP]

Ok, related random Jeep question. 

So my dad wants to buy a fancy Jeep to do offroading & such.  Assume this is sort of a luxury limited edition type thing.  He is is 65 recently retired and can comfortably afford it. 

His stated purpose is to drive it along the beach (there's a legal area in the regional beach location near us) and also out on road trips like to Utah and then in the desert.  I know zero about cars but assume he has researched this. 

I'm inclined to say "cool, dad, hope you have an awesome time with the Jeep, YOLO," which since he's 65, it's sort of now or never.  I would not do it myself for many reasons, but am not really comfortable getting into that with him.  His job involved doing things that in fact easily saved tens of thousands of lives (very accomplished medical researcher who developed new tests, medical devices, etc.) so I didn't feel it was appropriate to guilt trip him about climate change -- he's done enough to benefit humanity to justify his carbon emissions.  Also don't want to make it seem like I'm angling after any inheritance -- I'm happy for him to spend what he likes, though I'd prefer it was like new solar panels or something.   

Anyways in this instance should I just go with the flow or should I be trying to steer him to some sort of different vehicle?  Something less terrible that still would do what he's looking for?

Edit:  I think it might be the Rubicon? 

[Paul der Krake]

Ok, related random Jeep question. 

So my dad wants to buy a fancy Jeep to do offroading & such.  Assume this is sort of a luxury limited edition type thing.  He is is 65 recently retired and can comfortably afford it. 

His stated purpose is to drive it along the beach (there's a legal area in the regional beach location near us) and also out on road trips like to Utah and then in the desert.  I know zero about cars but assume he has researched this. 

I'm inclined to say "cool, dad, hope you have an awesome time with the Jeep, YOLO," which since he's 65, it's sort of now or never.  I would not do it myself for many reasons, but am not really comfortable getting into that with him.  His job involved doing things that in fact easily saved tens of thousands of lives (very accomplished medical researcher who developed new tests, medical devices, etc.) so I didn't feel it was appropriate to guilt trip him about climate change -- he's done enough to benefit humanity to justify his carbon emissions.  Also don't want to make it seem like I'm angling after any inheritance -- I'm happy for him to spend what he likes, though I'd prefer it was like new solar panels or something.   

Anyways in this instance should I just go with the flow or should I be trying to steer him to some sort of different vehicle?  Something less terrible that still would do what he's looking for?

Sounds like the right usage for a jeep to me, assuming he does it regularly, instead of the hypothetical offroad adventure that ends up happening once or twice a year at most.

[LWYRUP]

I think the beach will be a semi-regular thing since they will also be moving near there.  It's also about three hours from where we are now so I'm sure my family (me, DW, kids) will go there on summer weekends, though more like once a month or so.

I'm guessing the Utah trip happens like once a year and other local trips happen a couple times a year.  And that it's a toy that he sort of winds down on and then when he's in his 70s it spends a lot of time sitting next to the house. 

All fine, the only awkward part may be if he tries to give it to me in 10 years and I refuse because I don't want to pay upkeep (insurance, maintenance, gas).  But I don't think he'll be mortally offended, so maybe it's just all fine as a "golden years" toy. 

[zolotiyeruki]

All fine, the only awkward part may be if he tries to give it to me in 10 years and I refuse because I don't want to pay upkeep (insurance, maintenance, gas).  But I don't think he'll be mortally offended, so maybe it's just all fine as a "golden years" toy.

If he does give it to you in ten years, you could simply sell it ("I'm sorry, it really wasn't meeting my needs, but selling it allowed me to do <insert more important thing here>, so I really appreciate your generosity").

[Sugaree]

Jeep Wranglers are terrible cars when they roll off the assembly line...

Can't imagine what a 7 year old Jeep Wrangler would be like. Shouldn't they pay him to take it off their hands?

You know, I've heard this a lot and my brother has had a ton of problems out if his wife's Wrangler.  On the other hand, I've had two 2013 Wranglers and have had no problems with them (other than my husband totaling the first one).  My husband now drives my old 1999 Wrangler and didn't have any major problems until about 200k miles.  Maybe we've just been lucky.

[Sugaree]

Speaking of trucks, my brother called me today to see if I was still looking for a truck for my husband (no, he decided to replace the motor in his old one instead of buying a new one and this was two years ago now).  He's trying to sell his 2004 Ranger to raise the downpayment on a 2013 Wrangler.

To raise a down payment on a used car....

Everything about that phrase screams “I can’t afford this!” to me.

That was my thought too.  Sadly, my brother has bought into the idea that if he can afford the payment he can afford whatever it is he's financing (does it surprise anyone that he works as a loan officer at a bank?).  I thought he was getting better a few years ago when he sold the car that had payments to keep this truck that's been paid off for years.