Relatives who just don't get it

[MissNancyPryor]

~snip~  sous vide talk  ~snip~

I heard a lot about these and checked out what the deal was some time back.  When I saw the wattage they take I realized that using one for the very long time required to produce food felt akin to turning on a hair dryer and letting it run for many, many hours.  These things are 1000W vs 250W for a crock pot.  Just doesn't seem worth it.  Am I thinking about this wrong? 

OK, going back to read Hunny's post. 

[SwordGuy]

Choices have consequences.
Some people figure that out the easy way.
Some people need to learn that the hard way.
Some people refuse to learn the lesson even when life rubs their nose in it.

I agree with you completely.  Your FIL appears to solidly be in the last category.

I feel for your spouse having to deal with it.   The feelings of guilt are real.  The fact that they aren't justified by anything your spouse has done doesn't really matter.

We were lucky that our parents didn't need financial help at all. 

But we both know what it's like to have to set strong, firm boundaries on our parent's misbehavior and harshly remind them not to cross those boundaries.
It's not pleasant.  It's not fun.   But it **is** necessary at times.

Best of luck to you both.   Give your spouse a bit more time to come to terms with it.   If need be, work a few more months and set that money aside for true FIL emergencies.   2 to 6 months isn't that much time and it gives a real internal boundary to the amount of help you're willing to give.

If the trailer isn't paid for in full, that would be a simple goal.  That way, he doesn't end up without a place to stay (assuming the trailer can be moved if the trailer park gets sold and shut down).

[zolotiyeruki]

... To me, this looks like an act of defiance; lots of nodding in agreement and understanding the need to keep an eye on his monthly spend, but he's just not going to do it.  Fine, I'm done!  I know hubby has been concerned, b/c he plans to RE in 15 months, and our plans do NOT include financing his Dad when he screws up and runs out of money.  Hubby feels a sense of obligation and guilt, even though he has seen a lifetime of bad financial decisions by his parents.  So when hubby woke up, I told him about the transfer of funds, and suggested that he not go out of his way to help his Dad clean up his accounts or feel guilty about this anymore. I told him, I'm not wasting my time on this anymore; it's obvious that the advice is being ignored, so let him do what he wants, and if he does run out of money, he can figure it out on his own.

I have a wise relative who sums it up thus: "You can't care about someone else's problems more than they do."

[MissNancyPryor]

Fortunately he expressed disdain for sleeping on the blow up mattress.  If he loses his home that should be all that remains available if he continues with this reckless attitude.  As you and others note, you just can't fix some things. 

[Wrenchturner]

~snip~  sous vide talk  ~snip~

I heard a lot about these and checked out what the deal was some time back.  When I saw the wattage they take I realized that using one for the very long time required to produce food felt akin to turning on a hair dryer and letting it run for many, many hours.  These things are 1000W vs 250W for a crock pot.  Just doesn't seem worth it.  Am I thinking about this wrong? 

OK, going back to read Hunny's post.

"Waste heat" within the confines of a house in the winter when you're heating it isn't wasted.  The only loss is the difference in cost between heating your house with electricity and heating your house with natural gas.

The exception would be running a heater in a room that is pulling air out; eg using a hair dryer for a long time in a bathroom with the exhaust fan on.

[shuffler]

~snip~  sous vide talk  ~snip~

These things are 1000W vs 250W for a crock pot.  Just doesn't seem worth it.  Am I thinking about this wrong? 

It may draw that wattage initially when bringing the water up to temp, but energy consumption will be much lower for the duration of the cook while simply maintaining the temp.  (So it's rather *unlike* a hair dryer, which would draw the same wattage the entire time it's turned on.)

It also gets better (more efficient) when you insulate the bath, which you'd want to do anyway to reduce water loss.

Here's an old-ish article:  https://www.amazingfoodmadeeasy.com/info/modernist-cooking-blog/more/how-much-energy-does-sous-vide-use

[MissNancyPryor]

~snip~  sous vide talk  ~snip~

I heard a lot about these and checked out what the deal was some time back.  When I saw the wattage they take I realized that using one for the very long time required to produce food felt akin to turning on a hair dryer and letting it run for many, many hours.  These things are 1000W vs 250W for a crock pot.  Just doesn't seem worth it.  Am I thinking about this wrong? 

OK, going back to read Hunny's post.

"Waste heat" within the confines of a house in the winter when you're heating it isn't wasted.  The only loss is the difference in cost between heating your house with electricity and heating your house with natural gas.

The exception would be running a heater in a room that is pulling air out; eg using a hair dryer for a long time in a bathroom with the exhaust fan on.

Fuel and thermal distribution matters though; running a space heater that uses a resistance element is far more costly than the whole-house gas furnace, and the fact the heat is ducted to the extents of the home with a furnace means it will run less than a device placed at a single point within the same walls.  Perhaps comfort vs. consumption is the way to put it-  the room with the space heater is going to be too hot while the far off bedroom is an icebox.  Eventually thermal mixing will even it out to equilibrium but not efficiently and as long as the space heater is on it is too hot in that room. 

Yes, it has to be correct that it won't be identical to simply running a blasting hair dryer for an extended period because 1000W of constant energy into food would cook it very quickly rather than the slow warm bath that makes the food yummy. 

Good conversation though. 

[Hunny156]

Thanks everyone - sometimes I feel like I'm too sensitive, or I push too hard, so it's good to get some feedback that I wasn't wrong when I saw that transfer back into checking.

The trailer is fully paid for; MIL wanted to finance it, but we put our foot down on that one, for this very reason, and hubby is in sales, he negotiated a screaming good price for it b/c it was a cash sale.  We knew it was going to be hard enough for these two to live on a fixed income; adding a mortgage payment would have been disastrous.  When FIL was complaining about his lot rent going up $50/mo next month (to $575), I reminded him that the low cost elder apartment complexes in the area charge $1,100 for a small 1 Bed, 1 Bath unit, and they go up every year too, without fail.  He's got a 4 year old, high quality single wide 3 BR, 2 Ba unit, with a split floor plan, making it very easy to take on a roommate and only have to share the kitchen.  That too, he doesn't want to do.  Have it your way, then!

The mobile home park is thriving and actually doubling in size right now; it's not your typical place; this thing is gated and has a clubhouse, pool, gym, amenity center, community garden, etc.  Location is actually a hidden gem in proximity to our nearest big city; my concern there is that the lot rents will continue to go up b/c the land is becoming more valuable.  Moving it would be a $10K expense, that thing isn't going anywhere!

I completely understand Hubby's guilt, I've got a sibling somewhere who will come knocking when her options are live in her car or the homeless shelter, and she's adopted a scorched earth policy w/me, but she'll forget all about it once she's desperate enough.  In her case, she's done too much damage; I have to walk away, and I've made my peace w/it.  I did give hubby the option of working another year or so, just to cover his Dad, and his response was a quick, flat out no, which I completely understand, but it's still family, and I can't imagine we wouldn't at least provide groceries down the line, if it came to that.  But if I'm paying, I'm picking, and I don't shop at the most expensive grocer in the area like he does.

[OtherJen]

I can't imagine we wouldn't at least provide groceries down the line, if it came to that.  But if I'm paying, I'm picking, and I don't shop at the most expensive grocer in the area like he does.

There's always the option to provide gift cards from the less expensive grocer. He may be more receptive to making his own choices within that constraint.

Otherwise, I think you've taken a realistic view of a very difficult situation.

[MissNancyPryor]

@Hunny156 it sounds like you are being wise and I hope your hubby shares your resolve when things get rough.  You both could immediately agree to never speak of it to your FIL again unless he is the one who initiates the conversation--that would be an obvious test of who cares about it the most.  If you agree with your hubby on that single point and why that hurdle is important then it will tell you a lot about what it will look like down the road.  You made ample offers to spend more time educating, instructing, and guiding, and you were rebuffed instantly with that movement of funds.  Don't take that lightly, it was on purpose.   

In the meantime when FIL starts with the whining and complaining about this-and-that you can practice the "cool, bummer, wow" communication method where you hear him but do not try to solve any problems for him.  Let him vent, say cool, bummer, or wow as appropriate, and practice releasing the misplaced guilt.  It is obvious FIL does not really want your help.

My sister is a nutter, too.  At age 19 she had decided to become the second wife of a 28YO abusive dude and I, at age 17, begged her to just come back home and I was certain mom and dad would welcome her back.  She said, "Listen LITTLE GIRL, I am making MY OWN DECISIONS now!!!"  So I have let her do exactly that and stopped trying to intervene in any way.  Her life is a mess with multiple marriages, idiot children, and no money.  But I will never forget that she chose it and made sure to tweak my nose while she did it.

I hope you and hubby remain on the same page, it sounds like things are at least headed in that direction.             

[iris lily]

The Welfare Queen branch of my family experienced yet another premature death in this, thenHoliday Season.  And while sad, they didn’t let this opportunity for grifting go by. The funeral notice suggested memorial donations  go to family of the deceased. Funeral was free, provided by a funeral home that does this for children, no need for $.

The dead child’s obit listed many “daddies” but no father was mentioned.

They are a tribe of strong, independent women! Yeah, that and their government checks keep their families afloat.

[Ann]

....
After dinner, it was time to open the gifts. I had decided to splurge this year and bought several jewellery pieces that were more expensive than normal, because I wanted to support the charity selling them. So our gifts to others cost a total of around $200 for 6 people. So then everyone started opening everyone else's gifts. One family member is on disability and working part time. She's on full-on EOC living rent-free and driving her parents' car. Oh, and she's 40. DH and I are kind of the black sheep/outcasts in the family, so my gifts from her consisted of a cheap candle and a perfume sample. That's not the interesting part though. The interesting part was the other gifts she gave, including a $350 Coach purse ("It's the real thing! It's real leather!"), a $150 strainer ("I bought the best brand, so it should last a long time"), a giant bag full of Sephora make up, and $200 in gift cards. When you add up everything, she must have spent over $1000. This person literally spends every cent she has. It's like she has no concept of delayed gratification or longer term planning. The extremely poor executive functioning skills she exhibits is actually quite fascinating, provided that I do not have to act as her case manager or intertwine my finances with hers in any way.

How did the recipients of those expensive gifts react when they opened a gift they (likely?) knew the giver couldn’t afford? That just sounds crazy stressful.

The receiver of the gift cards smiled wanly and said thank you and murmured niceties about how the gift was thoughtful. She’s an environmentally conscious type who tries to be careful with money. The receivers of the other gifts? Oh my god! Thank you SOOOO much! It’s exactly what I wanted! I’ve been asking my mom to buy me one. This is AWESOME! I’m definitely going to use it! They’re as shortsighted and spendy as the giver.

I genuinely wonder what the proper nuanced response would be.  One the one hand, you really don’t want to encourage this person to put her own financial health at risk by buying presents in the future.  On the other hand, what about gracious and genuine — even enthusiastic— appreciation?

If they paid attention (knew it was something you wanted) and sacrificed to get it for you, wouldn’t it be condescending to judge them for making their own decision about how to handle their own finances?

I don’t know.  I don’t want to get extravagant gifts from people who would be strained to give them.  I mean, I kind of don’t want extravagant gifts at all, but it may depend on the definition.  A gift over $25 vs  $100 vs $200 or >$500 .... I wouldn’t want a coworker to go above $20 (even then) but a close financially stable relative it could be $100.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

In the meantime when FIL starts with the whining and complaining about this-and-that you can practice the "cool, bummer, wow" communication method where you hear him but do not try to solve any problems for him.  Let him vent, say cool, bummer, or wow as appropriate, and practice releasing the misplaced guilt.  It is obvious FIL does not really want your help.

I had an enormous personal breakthrough when I realized that "Hmm." is a complete sentence. It's basically a mouth noise that can mean approval, agreement, sympathy, disapproval, or whatever. There are variations: "Mm," "Mmph", and others.

By uttering this syllable, I can satisfy my psychological and emotional need to say something. The urge to say something in response to another person's emotional core-dump is a comfort-giving, altruistic, social-relationship-affirming instinct that a lot of people have. The challenge, in my case, is to not go too far and assume even partial responsibility for the other adult's situation. Offering to help clean up the mess another adult created as a result of bad decision making-- "wiping butt" as I put it when I'm in a vulgar mood-- tends to result in me being treated like toilet paper. Since being used, discardedm and treated with contempt isn't an experience I like, I've learned to make sure I don't open my stupid mouth and give too much or accidentally accept responsibility for the other person's situation.

In the past, I've had a habit of making unwise offers or causing the other person to believe I support whatever dumbass decision got them into their self-inflicted trouble. My motives have been reasonably good-- I want to help the other person, relieve their pain, and put them on a more stable footing. Sadly, the other person frequently does not WANT to be on a stable footing, and generally when I put forth effort or make sacrifices to get them there, they jump right back into the quicksand. What I intend to be guidance and support comes across as controlling behavior. Furthermore, I've found that there are large numbers of people who are far better at creating disaster than I am at cleaning it up. So, asking if there's anything I can do is a particularly idiotic move and I found my life got a lot better when I stopped doing it.

[SunnyDays]

Don’t deprive others of the chance to learn life lessons!

[Hunny156]

All really good points, not to consider, but to actually employ with FIL going forward.  I suspect this will be easier for me than hubby, partially b/c it's his Dad, and partially b/c the man is great at acting helpless, and hubby wants to help solve problems.

I think I'll focus on not getting involved in the financial piece going forward; that's where hubby and I can present a United front the most.  Car stuff, home stuff, etc, I'll probably just suggest checking Google for more info, and just change the subject.  Doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity!

I've sort of already implemented this policy in regards to family get togethers.  FIL has developed a habit of last minute cancellation of plans, citing not feeling well, but when hubby asks if he is going to a Dr, of course not.  These antics recently cost us some money, as I had to book non refundable hotel rooms for both of us, and ate the whole cost when he did exactly what I knew he would.  So, we stopped trying to set things up.  FIL reached out to us for this holiday; rather than setting up a traditional holiday at home, we just told him our plans and said he could tag along.  This time, it worked.  We'll see how it goes in the future.

[halftimer]

Removed ourselves from family drama a few years ago, so this info is from reliable second-hand sources who are still in the thick of it.  The parents are living well beyond their means and are underemployed (at retirement age) to afford the home they are in. They had some rent and living cost help for more than a year while housing another family member, but that was never enough to cover true expenses and now that room is empty again and the gap is getting wider each month. Many of us gave money in the last few years, but after we gave 'emergency' help and later saw it going towards unnecessary renovations instead of food and mortgage we stepped way back. We recognized that we could not control where money given was spent, and did not like how the emergency persisted even as flooring was upgraded and other decorating took precedence.
Present day: the sole worker in the family had planned surgery and was off work for a month, so the emergency calls for money to cover mortgage went out the day before it was due. 2 people were moved to wire funds immediately to help out (although they later said, what kind of plan for optional surgery wouldn't account for this main expense?). Apparently they did plan - by calling the bank and getting the credit limit stretched (yikes). The next day the update is that mom has ordered a new mattress with the line of credit. Because - free money! and 'we needed it'. The people who did contribute are currently making plans to not be reachable during the next 'emergency'. Which is of course, now since they are actually, finally moving but don't have a last months payment on the mortgage. I'm sure they also won't have the funds for the moving truck, but I'm not going to ask questions to that effect.

[shelivesthedream]

@GatorNation That's frustrating. If I were BIL/FIL I would use the inheritance to pay off the credit cards then use the entire remaining amount to buy an annuity. At least then he can't piss the value away and he doesn't need to engage in any complex (or even simple) investment management.

[auntie_betty]

You had a home printer before retiring? What kind of monster are you? I bet you're one of those sickos who buys their own pens too.

I did ;(

My almost five year pen stash is running out. I bought a pack of pens. Different colours. Oh, pretty :)

[GatorNation]

@GatorNation That's frustrating. If I were BIL/FIL I would use the inheritance to pay off the credit cards then use the entire remaining amount to buy an annuity. At least then he can't piss the value away and he doesn't need to engage in any complex (or even simple) investment management.

Agreed.  My BIL wants his dad to invest the money in mutual funds and similar investments.  I told my BIL that i believe the main goal here is wealth preservation.  You can put the money in a CD for all that i care...as long as he doesn't spend it.

[Sibley]

This is minor, but it's annoying. I need new cooking spoons and spatulas. Nothing fancy, I'm not a big cook or anything, I just need some basic wooden spoons and spatulas. I asked for them for Christmas.

My mom bought these Rubbermaid professional line spatulas. Like, um, you could have just gone to the grocery store and picked up a package of whatever they had. Which I will now have to do, because these things are ridiculous.

Wait, I’m lost. What’s wrong with the rubbermade ones? What makes them ridiculous?

The smaller one the rubber head thing is 3 inches long. That one I can use, though it doesn't actually bend enough to follow the edges of the bowl so I might end up not using it much. The bigger one is about double the size and doesn't fit in the drawer.

[Just Joe]

Heard a good one. Relative talks about saving money. Selling the spare vehicle b/c they don't drive it. Might need a timing belt soon (it has a timing chain). Cost of insurance for a vehicle that is parked most of the time. Second driver is hardly able to drive. It probably (they theorized) needs maintenance (simple, cheap, easy to do DIY stuff that I would have gladly done for them). Good news, it sold!

DW and I should have bought it probably. It has a decade of life left in it or more.

Less than 24 hours later - folks are talking about buying the same kind of vehicle to carry off recycling and whatnot. A task their first and former second vehicle are both perfectly capable of. Total cost of ownership just to carry off recycling.

Ugh... And they talk about a thin budget.... I wish I could reshape their priorities. Good people that might be living on a shoestring b/c they can't/won't stop spending.

Edited b/c I missed a couple of little context words.

[Wrenchturner]

I had an enormous personal breakthrough when I realized that "Hmm." is a complete sentence. It's basically a mouth noise that can mean approval, agreement, sympathy, disapproval, or whatever. There are variations: "Mm," "Mmph", and others.

By uttering this syllable, I can satisfy my psychological and emotional need to say something. The urge to say something in response to another person's emotional core-dump is a comfort-giving, altruistic, social-relationship-affirming instinct that a lot of people have. The challenge, in my case, is to not go too far and assume even partial responsibility for the other adult's situation. Offering to help clean up the mess another adult created as a result of bad decision making-- "wiping butt" as I put it when I'm in a vulgar mood-- tends to result in me being treated like toilet paper. Since being used, discardedm and treated with contempt isn't an experience I like, I've learned to make sure I don't open my stupid mouth and give too much or accidentally accept responsibility for the other person's situation.

East Indians have a solution for this, it should be more widely adopted. 

Let's try this again, attaching a gif won't animate:

[Just Joe]

Bottom line, just like your post seems to indicate, sometimes keeping the cheapo car is a good idea when people have other levels of instability going on; it might keep them from doing dumb things.     

If you are replying to me: they had two cars and one adult driver. Second adult has health issues and rarely drives, really shouldn't be driving to be honest to mobility issues.

Long story shorter: first there were excuses for why they needed to sell the second car, some which were valid. Reasons included saving money b/c less insurance, less maintenance, less depreciation. They may be having a budget crunch due to comments recently made. As soon as the second vehicle was sold (within 24 hrs), they started listing reasons why they needed a second vehicle again. All the tasks could have been completed by the now sold second vehicle or the first vehicle which they continue to own. In other words no reason whatsoever to own a second vehicle especially since the second driver shouldn't really be driving anyhow. Not just seller's remorse.

Their logic seems to allow saving money and spending more money at the same time. ;)

It'll cost them more money to replace what they sold but they won't get anymore utility out of the next purchase than they were getting from the last. Higher pricetag, higher insurance rates perhaps, transaction fees (sales tax, etc).

They have been car hoppers for as long as I've known them. I think they just get tired of owning the same vehicle for more than 18 months or so. Its comment worthy for DW and I because we keep our vehicles for twenty+ years. Just wish they would get debt free and stay that way but apparently not a motivator.

[Monerexia]

Rather than lamenting that others are wired different, I've found it helpful to provide incentives they can understand. I can go into and understand their world, they cannot come into mine--they cannot even see it. Of course this is an old, old idea. So far so good.

[Model96]

In the meantime when FIL starts with the whining and complaining about this-and-that you can practice the "cool, bummer, wow" communication method where you hear him but do not try to solve any problems for him.  Let him vent, say cool, bummer, or wow as appropriate, and practice releasing the misplaced guilt.  It is obvious FIL does not really want your help.

I had an enormous personal breakthrough when I realized that "Hmm." is a complete sentence. It's basically a mouth noise that can mean approval, agreement, sympathy, disapproval, or whatever. There are variations: "Mm," "Mmph", and others.

By uttering this syllable, I can satisfy my psychological and emotional need to say something. The urge to say something in response to another person's emotional core-dump is a comfort-giving, altruistic, social-relationship-affirming instinct that a lot of people have. The challenge, in my case, is to not go too far and assume even partial responsibility for the other adult's situation. Offering to help clean up the mess another adult created as a result of bad decision making-- "wiping butt" as I put it when I'm in a vulgar mood-- tends to result in me being treated like toilet paper. Since being used, discardedm and treated with contempt isn't an experience I like, I've learned to make sure I don't open my stupid mouth and give too much or accidentally accept responsibility for the other person's situation.

In the past, I've had a habit of making unwise offers or causing the other person to believe I support whatever dumbass decision got them into their self-inflicted trouble. My motives have been reasonably good-- I want to help the other person, relieve their pain, and put them on a more stable footing. Sadly, the other person frequently does not WANT to be on a stable footing, and generally when I put forth effort or make sacrifices to get them there, they jump right back into the quicksand. What I intend to be guidance and support comes across as controlling behavior. Furthermore, I've found that there are large numbers of people who are far better at creating disaster than I am at cleaning it up. So, asking if there's anything I can do is a particularly idiotic move and I found my life got a lot better when I stopped doing it.

I really like that, I'll now use 'hmmm' a lot more !
In Australia we have an old, seldom used saying that may summarise for you....
'Cradle a fool, and he'll die in your arms'....

[Just Joe]

Rather than lamenting that others are wired different, I've found it helpful to provide incentives they can understand. I can go into and understand their world, they cannot come into mine--they cannot even see it. Of course this is an old, old idea. So far so good.

I only lament here, my place to anonymously roll my eyes. In real life I've offered my share of helpful suggestions but I won't beat anyone over the head for their choices vs mine. We lead by example. People don't see it or can't see it or can't delay their gratification.

[Abundant life]

In the meantime when FIL starts with the whining and complaining about this-and-that you can practice the "cool, bummer, wow" communication method where you hear him but do not try to solve any problems for him.  Let him vent, say cool, bummer, or wow as appropriate, and practice releasing the misplaced guilt.  It is obvious FIL does not really want your help.

I had an enormous personal breakthrough when I realized that "Hmm." is a complete sentence. It's basically a mouth noise that can mean approval, agreement, sympathy, disapproval, or whatever. There are variations: "Mm," "Mmph", and others.

By uttering this syllable, I can satisfy my psychological and emotional need to say something. The urge to say something in response to another person's emotional core-dump is a comfort-giving, altruistic, social-relationship-affirming instinct that a lot of people have. The challenge, in my case, is to not go too far and assume even partial responsibility for the other adult's situation. Offering to help clean up the mess another adult created as a result of bad decision making-- "wiping butt" as I put it when I'm in a vulgar mood-- tends to result in me being treated like toilet paper. Since being used, discardedm and treated with contempt isn't an experience I like, I've learned to make sure I don't open my stupid mouth and give too much or accidentally accept responsibility for the other person's situation.

In the past, I've had a habit of making unwise offers or causing the other person to believe I support whatever dumbass decision got them into their self-inflicted trouble. My motives have been reasonably good-- I want to help the other person, relieve their pain, and put them on a more stable footing. Sadly, the other person frequently does not WANT to be on a stable footing, and generally when I put forth effort or make sacrifices to get them there, they jump right back into the quicksand. What I intend to be guidance and support comes across as controlling behavior. Furthermore, I've found that there are large numbers of people who are far better at creating disaster than I am at cleaning it up. So, asking if there's anything I can do is a particularly idiotic move and I found my life got a lot better when I stopped doing it.

I really like that, I'll now use 'hmmm' a lot more !
In Australia we have an old, seldom used saying that may summarise for you....
'Cradle a fool, and he'll die in your arms'....

I'm Australian and have never heard that saying - I like it!

[mm1970]

The next morning, I wake up and recall that when MIL died, there still was some cash in that savings account, which we didn't account for the night before.  Uh oh, that means his monthly burn rate is higher than we were seeing; there haven't been any major expenses, as Hubby and his brother split the funeral costs, so FIL didn't use any $$ for that.  I decide to quickly login to his account and check what the amount was in savings when she passed; looks like another $10K wasn't accounted for, that's a problem; he's burning over $1,200/mo in addition to his SSA.  As I'm about to logout, I notice that the savings account balance has dropped overnight as well!  Sure enough, FIL wasn't too tired to login to his account when he got home, and transfer half the money right back into checking. To me, this looks like an act of defiance; lots of nodding in agreement and understanding the need to keep an eye on his monthly spend, but he's just not going to do it.  Fine, I'm done!  I know hubby has been concerned, b/c he plans to RE in 15 months, and our plans do NOT include financing his Dad when he screws up and runs out of money. Hubby feels a sense of obligation and guilt, even though he has seen a lifetime of bad financial decisions by his parents.  So when hubby woke up, I told him about the transfer of funds, and suggested that he not go out of his way to help his Dad clean up his accounts or feel guilty about this anymore. I told him, I'm not wasting my time on this anymore; it's obvious that the advice is being ignored, so let him do what he wants, and if he does run out of money, he can figure it out on his own.  Still, I feel bad for hubby; that's easier said than done.  We just have to keep reminding ourselves:

Ah, how do you know what kind of retiree you will be?  My parents are both gone, as are all of my grandparents.

My husband's grandparents - one set of them was much like this when they retired.  They were so defiant they turned into children!  I guess 2 out of 6 isn't bad?  I'm not sure why they were like this.  My husband's parents tried to help guide them into looking after their own interests.  They would nod their heads and agree, then do what they wanted and laugh afterwards.  Disengage is all I can say.  To be honest, both of them ended up in a home eventually - the grandfather did not last long (he'd had a stroke) and the grandmother lived in the home (a depressing state home, because that's all the state would cover) for 15-20 years?  She was 95 or 97 when she died.

[Daisyedwards800]

I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here? 

[SwordGuy]

I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here?

Pretty much everyone has at least one stupid and/or crazy relative!

[solon]

I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here?

Pretty much everyone has at least one stupid and/or crazy relative!

and if you don't...

[SwordGuy]

I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here?

Pretty much everyone has at least one stupid and/or crazy relative!

and if you don't...

Then either you're very lucky or you're their crazy relative! :)

[TomTX]

I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here?

Feel free to skip them instead of making them even longer! ;)

[dmac680chi]

So I gotta talk a bit about my parents. For context, I'm 26-year-old guy who moved out of my parent's house in October.

My parents have worked in the financial sector for the last 20+ years each. They've been very successful and before the 2008 recession made boatloads of money being able to afford quite a nice lifestyle. As such my parents have a nice condo in a major city that's really nice. This time last year my mom lost her job as her company was restructuring. She'd been working for the same company for 15+ years. Currently, she's "looking" for work. The original plan for my dad to retire when his older boss steps down or dies and my mom to work till 60 or so. My dad is panicked as somehow my mom (my dad claims not sure about the numbers) has managed to spend $10-15k a month even when unemployed. She obviously needs a job. This spending makes me worried and makes me want to emphasize communication with whoever I settle down with. I'd also say they probably need marriage counseling because of this but they're still stubborn and won't do that.

The other aspect of this is my mom grew up wealthy, having money taken from the trust of her grandparents. As such my grandparents have spent gobs and gobs of money over the years, also not quite surprising the money from the trust was mismanaged and mishandled. To my understanding, my grandparents didn't think much about retirement and now they (my mom's parents) have ongoing health issues. They moved into a semi-assisted living facility which is good given their health issues. That said since they pretty much have drained everything from that trust, they want my parents to contribute $100k or more to help their retirement, I think it's more like $300k. Although I want them to still be alive being expecting to give that kind of money seems excessive and ridiculous. Also, last I heard they might get half the money they contribute back but even then it seems too good to be true plus stupid.

Surprise surprise, my parents and grandparents don't budget at all. I myself have found the app You Need A Budget (YNAB) really helpful to help manage my spending. That said they're too stubborn to budget. My aunt discovered my grandparents were spending $800 a month at Costco....not sure how that's possible.

[SwordGuy]

Here's your situation in a nutshell:

1) You should not plan to get an inheritance.   You have 3 to 4 spendthrifts between you and whatever is left.   
(No one should ever make their sole plan to get an inheritance anyway, so you haven't lost anything.)

2) It's only your business if you make it your business.   Say your piece.  Said comments, if you make them, should include "You need to plan for your retirement because I'm not going to be able to handle my own AND yours.   Since you've said they are too stubborn to listen anyway, I suggest saying nothing.

3) In your FI plans, include a smallish amount that will set them up in a very cheap home in a very LCOL area and cover their moving costs.  This could be a trailer home on a small plot of land or an inexpensive house (~$30k-60k).  At that point, their social security should cover their living costs.   Expect them to destroy the house thru lack of maintenance.  Give them the house, you do not want your finances or LIABILITIES mixed up with their behavior.  Other than that, you're done.     Frankly, choices have consequences and I would not chastise you if you just let them deal with the consequences of their stubbornness.   We're not talking about people who had no or limited chances in life to get it right.

[DaMa]

I've spent a lot of time with my DSIL, and have shared some low key cost cutting options...like cutting cable and MVNOs for cheaper cell service.  Her husband, DBIL uses and old flip phone and only talk and text.  So I mentioned he could probably get that super cheap.  So she texts me this morning asking about Boost Mobile.  I go google cheapest cell plans and find Twigby.com for talk/text only.  Search "Twigby" in MMM forums and find some positive reviews.  I check out the Twigby website -- $9.75/mo for 6 months.  So I send DSIL the info.

She calls me and tells me she just got off the phone with Sprint, her current carrier.  They can give her a plan for $35 a line - $105 for 3 lines, compared to the $190 she has been paying them.  So I tell her that she could go $10 for DBIL, $15 on another for her (uses <1 gB data per month) and daughter could go get her own plan (since she is MARRIED and works fulltime and is not at all strapped financially -- I didn't actually say this part out loud).

She says, well I'm already saving almost $100 so why go to the trouble of changing?

[Monerexia]

Rather than lamenting that others are wired different, I've found it helpful to provide incentives they can understand. I can go into and understand their world, they cannot come into mine--they cannot even see it. Of course this is an old, old idea. So far so good.

I only lament here, my place to anonymously roll my eyes. In real life I've offered my share of helpful suggestions but I won't beat anyone over the head for their choices vs mine. We lead by example. People don't see it or can't see it or can't delay their gratification.

Nah I just loan them money. 5K is requested. 18% $100 processing fee $249/month for two years. Done this several times with varying amounts over the years. So far so good...:)

[Just Joe]

She says, well I'm already saving almost $100 so why go to the trouble of changing?

Well b/c with a $10 a month plan, your relative would be saving almost another $100 for a total of almost $200 a month saved on cell phones.

Side note: dropped and broke my phone over the holidays. Determined I could happily go without again I've decided.

Have a ~$10 PAYGO plan but alas Dad duties dictate keeping a phone. Will buy another cheap one soon I've promised.

[Step37]

Just spent five days visiting my sister. I’d assumed the third vehicle (Mercedes coupe) in the driveway belonged to the person who’s temporarily staying with them, so I was confused on day three when she said I could take it on an errand. My sister and BIL are very spendy people who have had to borrow money from me at times when business was slow (currently owe me nothing). They are hoping to sell their property soon, as they are tapped out with the business they’re in. Imagine my surprise to learn that the Mercedes belongs to my sister. I was unable to hide my initial reaction of incredulous horror, and it got a little awkward... Says sister, “Don’t worry, it’s only $400/mo for the lease, and I’ve always wanted a Mercedes.” Never mind that there are two perfectly nice vehicles, that they have recently bought out leases on, sitting right there. I mean, why bother trying to get your monthly expenses down to the bare minimum when you want to sell everything and move?

[ender]

Just spent five days visiting my sister. I’d assumed the third vehicle (Mercedes coupe) in the driveway belonged to the person who’s temporarily staying with them, so I was confused on day three when she said I could take it on an errand. My sister and BIL are very spendy people who have had to borrow money from me at times when business was slow (currently owe me nothing). They are hoping to sell their property soon, as they are tapped out with the business they’re in. Imagine my surprise to learn that the Mercedes belongs to my sister. I was unable to hide my initial reaction of incredulous horror, and it got a little awkward... Says sister, “Don’t worry, it’s only $400/mo for the lease, and I’ve always wanted a Mercedes.” Never mind that there are two perfectly nice vehicles, that they have recently bought out leases on, sitting right there. I mean, why bother trying to get your monthly expenses down to the bare minimum when you want to sell everything and move?

Something tells me this won't change anytime soon now..

[Sibley]

Just spent five days visiting my sister. I’d assumed the third vehicle (Mercedes coupe) in the driveway belonged to the person who’s temporarily staying with them, so I was confused on day three when she said I could take it on an errand. My sister and BIL are very spendy people who have had to borrow money from me at times when business was slow (currently owe me nothing). They are hoping to sell their property soon, as they are tapped out with the business they’re in. Imagine my surprise to learn that the Mercedes belongs to my sister. I was unable to hide my initial reaction of incredulous horror, and it got a little awkward... Says sister, “Don’t worry, it’s only $400/mo for the lease, and I’ve always wanted a Mercedes.” Never mind that there are two perfectly nice vehicles, that they have recently bought out leases on, sitting right there. I mean, why bother trying to get your monthly expenses down to the bare minimum when you want to sell everything and move?

Don't lend them any more money.

[Step37]

@ender  @Sibley

No, there will be no further money lending. It’s one irresponsible, short-sighted decision after another with these two... I didn’t even mention that they live ON THE PROPERTY where they run the business, so could quite likely get by with one car with a bit of planning and the occasional rental.

They are very likeable, kind people and I don’t want to damage our relationship by lending them money again (and they have not asked - things are stable. For now.). I will offer advice only (if asked).

[Jouer]

Massive job loss in Alberta, which has been tricking down to many businesses. Better lease a luxury car.

Dear lord.

[Step37]

Massive job loss in Alberta, which has been tricking down to many businesses. Better lease a luxury car.

Dear lord.

They’re actually in SoCal, but a poor decision regardless!

[Zamboni]

I have a relative who has always been a very high earner (low-mid six figure salary), but who also has always told tales of whoa about money to anyone who will listen. Said relative has a child who plays an extremely expensive national travel sport . . . and I am also sometimes at the same events since my child also plays.

I don't always go, though, due to financial goals and and also a desire for my child to gain independence. You see, the teams travel without parents, and this is paid for up front when your kid makes a team. But, parents can pay for their own travel separately if they would like to watch. This relative ALWAYS travels to these events, which often require flights and multi-night hotel stays at places like Hiltons and Marriotts. I am absolutely certain he has not missed a single event in the past 5 years. For some of this time he has had a high income, and for other times he has been unemployed.

Anyway, at one of the events, a player mom from his daughter's team approached me. She told me she had been sitting with him watching the event, and that he had told her he was in serious financial trouble. At that point, he had been unemployed for some time (was actually unemployed prior to team tryouts and this was near the end of the season), but his spending had not slowed down one iota. He told her he was close to bankruptcy. She told me his tale of whoa and said she was taking up a collection from all of the parents on his daughters team to help him, and she wanted to know if I also wanted to contribute since I am related. Some of the parents are very well off, so I'm sure she had a good amount of money already at that point. I told her that is kind of her, but I declined to contribute.

She seemed shocked . . . lol, but it wore off I bet! On the last day of the event I saw him an asked how things were going. He told me with great delight that the other parents had given him a cash gift the night before, so he went out to celebrate at Joe's Crab Shack. He got a boil pot, whatever that is. Nothing says "OMG thank you for saving me from bankruptcy!" like buying yourself a $50 crab dinner.

(Just for the record, when I do go to these things, I usually grocery shop and eat in my room at these events. I will sometimes attend one "team meal" to socialize with other parents, but that's it.)

[RWD]

tales of whoa

The phrase is "tales of woe". Silly English language and its homonyms!

[Kris]

tales of whoa

The phrase is "tales of woe". Silly English language and its homonyms!

Ha... I wasn’t going to say anything...

[Zamboni]

Hahaha, yes, worth it just to see that!

Edited to add that I am completely homonym challenged. Somehow I can keep their, there, and they're straight, but I will accidentally type the wrong form of one/won. Meh.

[PMG]

I think there is some whoa in that story as well as woe.

[Monerexia]

And now, another tale of whoa: Spoke with my sister today about how my brother, who lives with my mother in his mid forties, has again charged unauthorized charges on her credit card. My sister is still in "help him" mode, even though this person has ripped all of us off over the decades, and is stunningly lazy, corrupt and abusive. Almost impressive actually. She said something like the problem is "he needs to learn to live within his means." First off, he has no means as he's chronically unemployed and works fewer hours in a year than I do in a week. Secondarily he has no need to get any means as he has a herd of enablers around him to "help help help." So embarrassed to be related to this clown haha