Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3466867 times)

halftimer

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5600 on: December 27, 2019, 09:30:06 PM »
Removed ourselves from family drama a few years ago, so this info is from reliable second-hand sources who are still in the thick of it.  The parents are living well beyond their means and are underemployed (at retirement age) to afford the home they are in. They had some rent and living cost help for more than a year while housing another family member, but that was never enough to cover true expenses and now that room is empty again and the gap is getting wider each month. Many of us gave money in the last few years, but after we gave 'emergency' help and later saw it going towards unnecessary renovations instead of food and mortgage we stepped way back. We recognized that we could not control where money given was spent, and did not like how the emergency persisted even as flooring was upgraded and other decorating took precedence.
Present day: the sole worker in the family had planned surgery and was off work for a month, so the emergency calls for money to cover mortgage went out the day before it was due. 2 people were moved to wire funds immediately to help out (although they later said, what kind of plan for optional surgery wouldn't account for this main expense?). Apparently they did plan - by calling the bank and getting the credit limit stretched (yikes). The next day the update is that mom has ordered a new mattress with the line of credit. Because - free money! and 'we needed it'. The people who did contribute are currently making plans to not be reachable during the next 'emergency'. Which is of course, now since they are actually, finally moving but don't have a last months payment on the mortgage. I'm sure they also won't have the funds for the moving truck, but I'm not going to ask questions to that effect.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5601 on: December 28, 2019, 01:49:14 AM »
@GatorNation That's frustrating. If I were BIL/FIL I would use the inheritance to pay off the credit cards then use the entire remaining amount to buy an annuity. At least then he can't piss the value away and he doesn't need to engage in any complex (or even simple) investment management.

auntie_betty

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5602 on: December 28, 2019, 04:08:11 AM »


Quote
You had a home printer before retiring? What kind of monster are you? I bet you're one of those sickos who buys their own pens too.


I did ;(

My almost five year pen stash is running out. I bought a pack of pens. Different colours. Oh, pretty :)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 04:19:52 AM by auntie_betty »

GatorNation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5603 on: December 28, 2019, 04:55:22 AM »
@GatorNation That's frustrating. If I were BIL/FIL I would use the inheritance to pay off the credit cards then use the entire remaining amount to buy an annuity. At least then he can't piss the value away and he doesn't need to engage in any complex (or even simple) investment management.

Agreed.  My BIL wants his dad to invest the money in mutual funds and similar investments.  I told my BIL that i believe the main goal here is wealth preservation.  You can put the money in a CD for all that i care...as long as he doesn't spend it.

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5604 on: December 30, 2019, 03:40:00 PM »
This is minor, but it's annoying. I need new cooking spoons and spatulas. Nothing fancy, I'm not a big cook or anything, I just need some basic wooden spoons and spatulas. I asked for them for Christmas.

My mom bought these Rubbermaid professional line spatulas. Like, um, you could have just gone to the grocery store and picked up a package of whatever they had. Which I will now have to do, because these things are ridiculous.

Wait, Iím lost. Whatís wrong with the rubbermade ones? What makes them ridiculous?

The smaller one the rubber head thing is 3 inches long. That one I can use, though it doesn't actually bend enough to follow the edges of the bowl so I might end up not using it much. The bigger one is about double the size and doesn't fit in the drawer.

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5605 on: December 31, 2019, 11:09:55 PM »
Heard a good one. Relative talks about saving money. Selling the spare vehicle b/c they don't drive it. Might need a timing belt soon (it has a timing chain). Cost of insurance for a vehicle that is parked most of the time. Second driver is hardly able to drive. It probably (they theorized) needs maintenance (simple, cheap, easy to do DIY stuff that I would have gladly done for them). Good news, it sold!

DW and I should have bought it probably. It has a decade of life left in it or more.

Less than 24 hours later - folks are talking about buying the same kind of vehicle to carry off recycling and whatnot. A task their first and former second vehicle are both perfectly capable of. Total cost of ownership just to carry off recycling.

Ugh... And they talk about a thin budget.... I wish I could reshape their priorities. Good people that might be living on a shoestring b/c they can't/won't stop spending.

Edited b/c I missed a couple of little context words.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 03:00:57 PM by Just Joe »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5606 on: January 01, 2020, 01:49:15 PM »
I had an enormous personal breakthrough when I realized that "Hmm." is a complete sentence. It's basically a mouth noise that can mean approval, agreement, sympathy, disapproval, or whatever. There are variations: "Mm," "Mmph", and others.

By uttering this syllable, I can satisfy my psychological and emotional need to say something. The urge to say something in response to another person's emotional core-dump is a comfort-giving, altruistic, social-relationship-affirming instinct that a lot of people have. The challenge, in my case, is to not go too far and assume even partial responsibility for the other adult's situation. Offering to help clean up the mess another adult created as a result of bad decision making-- "wiping butt" as I put it when I'm in a vulgar mood-- tends to result in me being treated like toilet paper. Since being used, discardedm and treated with contempt isn't an experience I like, I've learned to make sure I don't open my stupid mouth and give too much or accidentally accept responsibility for the other person's situation.

East Indians have a solution for this, it should be more widely adopted. 

Let's try this again, attaching a gif won't animate:

« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 01:51:35 PM by Wrenchturner »

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5607 on: January 01, 2020, 03:23:56 PM »
Bottom line, just like your post seems to indicate, sometimes keeping the cheapo car is a good idea when people have other levels of instability going on; it might keep them from doing dumb things.     

If you are replying to me: they had two cars and one adult driver. Second adult has health issues and rarely drives, really shouldn't be driving to be honest to mobility issues.

Long story shorter: first there were excuses for why they needed to sell the second car, some which were valid. Reasons included saving money b/c less insurance, less maintenance, less depreciation. They may be having a budget crunch due to comments recently made. As soon as the second vehicle was sold (within 24 hrs), they started listing reasons why they needed a second vehicle again. All the tasks could have been completed by the now sold second vehicle or the first vehicle which they continue to own. In other words no reason whatsoever to own a second vehicle especially since the second driver shouldn't really be driving anyhow. Not just seller's remorse.

Their logic seems to allow saving money and spending more money at the same time. ;)

It'll cost them more money to replace what they sold but they won't get anymore utility out of the next purchase than they were getting from the last. Higher pricetag, higher insurance rates perhaps, transaction fees (sales tax, etc).

They have been car hoppers for as long as I've known them. I think they just get tired of owning the same vehicle for more than 18 months or so. Its comment worthy for DW and I because we keep our vehicles for twenty+ years. Just wish they would get debt free and stay that way but apparently not a motivator.

Monerexia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5608 on: January 01, 2020, 05:12:07 PM »
Rather than lamenting that others are wired different, I've found it helpful to provide incentives they can understand. I can go into and understand their world, they cannot come into mine--they cannot even see it. Of course this is an old, old idea. So far so good.

Model96

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5609 on: January 01, 2020, 05:34:50 PM »
In the meantime when FIL starts with the whining and complaining about this-and-that you can practice the "cool, bummer, wow" communication method where you hear him but do not try to solve any problems for him.  Let him vent, say cool, bummer, or wow as appropriate, and practice releasing the misplaced guilt.  It is obvious FIL does not really want your help.
I had an enormous personal breakthrough when I realized that "Hmm." is a complete sentence. It's basically a mouth noise that can mean approval, agreement, sympathy, disapproval, or whatever. There are variations: "Mm," "Mmph", and others.

By uttering this syllable, I can satisfy my psychological and emotional need to say something. The urge to say something in response to another person's emotional core-dump is a comfort-giving, altruistic, social-relationship-affirming instinct that a lot of people have. The challenge, in my case, is to not go too far and assume even partial responsibility for the other adult's situation. Offering to help clean up the mess another adult created as a result of bad decision making-- "wiping butt" as I put it when I'm in a vulgar mood-- tends to result in me being treated like toilet paper. Since being used, discardedm and treated with contempt isn't an experience I like, I've learned to make sure I don't open my stupid mouth and give too much or accidentally accept responsibility for the other person's situation.

In the past, I've had a habit of making unwise offers or causing the other person to believe I support whatever dumbass decision got them into their self-inflicted trouble. My motives have been reasonably good-- I want to help the other person, relieve their pain, and put them on a more stable footing. Sadly, the other person frequently does not WANT to be on a stable footing, and generally when I put forth effort or make sacrifices to get them there, they jump right back into the quicksand. What I intend to be guidance and support comes across as controlling behavior. Furthermore, I've found that there are large numbers of people who are far better at creating disaster than I am at cleaning it up. So, asking if there's anything I can do is a particularly idiotic move and I found my life got a lot better when I stopped doing it.

I really like that, I'll now use 'hmmm' a lot more !
In Australia we have an old, seldom used saying that may summarise for you....
'Cradle a fool, and he'll die in your arms'....

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5610 on: January 01, 2020, 11:45:41 PM »
Rather than lamenting that others are wired different, I've found it helpful to provide incentives they can understand. I can go into and understand their world, they cannot come into mine--they cannot even see it. Of course this is an old, old idea. So far so good.

I only lament here, my place to anonymously roll my eyes. In real life I've offered my share of helpful suggestions but I won't beat anyone over the head for their choices vs mine. We lead by example. People don't see it or can't see it or can't delay their gratification.

Abundant life

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5611 on: January 02, 2020, 07:51:11 AM »
In the meantime when FIL starts with the whining and complaining about this-and-that you can practice the "cool, bummer, wow" communication method where you hear him but do not try to solve any problems for him.  Let him vent, say cool, bummer, or wow as appropriate, and practice releasing the misplaced guilt.  It is obvious FIL does not really want your help.
I had an enormous personal breakthrough when I realized that "Hmm." is a complete sentence. It's basically a mouth noise that can mean approval, agreement, sympathy, disapproval, or whatever. There are variations: "Mm," "Mmph", and others.

By uttering this syllable, I can satisfy my psychological and emotional need to say something. The urge to say something in response to another person's emotional core-dump is a comfort-giving, altruistic, social-relationship-affirming instinct that a lot of people have. The challenge, in my case, is to not go too far and assume even partial responsibility for the other adult's situation. Offering to help clean up the mess another adult created as a result of bad decision making-- "wiping butt" as I put it when I'm in a vulgar mood-- tends to result in me being treated like toilet paper. Since being used, discardedm and treated with contempt isn't an experience I like, I've learned to make sure I don't open my stupid mouth and give too much or accidentally accept responsibility for the other person's situation.

In the past, I've had a habit of making unwise offers or causing the other person to believe I support whatever dumbass decision got them into their self-inflicted trouble. My motives have been reasonably good-- I want to help the other person, relieve their pain, and put them on a more stable footing. Sadly, the other person frequently does not WANT to be on a stable footing, and generally when I put forth effort or make sacrifices to get them there, they jump right back into the quicksand. What I intend to be guidance and support comes across as controlling behavior. Furthermore, I've found that there are large numbers of people who are far better at creating disaster than I am at cleaning it up. So, asking if there's anything I can do is a particularly idiotic move and I found my life got a lot better when I stopped doing it.

I really like that, I'll now use 'hmmm' a lot more !
In Australia we have an old, seldom used saying that may summarise for you....
'Cradle a fool, and he'll die in your arms'....
I'm Australian and have never heard that saying - I like it!

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5612 on: January 02, 2020, 03:04:34 PM »
Quote
The next morning, I wake up and recall that when MIL died, there still was some cash in that savings account, which we didn't account for the night before.  Uh oh, that means his monthly burn rate is higher than we were seeing; there haven't been any major expenses, as Hubby and his brother split the funeral costs, so FIL didn't use any $$ for that.  I decide to quickly login to his account and check what the amount was in savings when she passed; looks like another $10K wasn't accounted for, that's a problem; he's burning over $1,200/mo in addition to his SSA.  As I'm about to logout, I notice that the savings account balance has dropped overnight as well!  Sure enough, FIL wasn't too tired to login to his account when he got home, and transfer half the money right back into checking. To me, this looks like an act of defiance; lots of nodding in agreement and understanding the need to keep an eye on his monthly spend, but he's just not going to do it.  Fine, I'm done!  I know hubby has been concerned, b/c he plans to RE in 15 months, and our plans do NOT include financing his Dad when he screws up and runs out of money. Hubby feels a sense of obligation and guilt, even though he has seen a lifetime of bad financial decisions by his parents.  So when hubby woke up, I told him about the transfer of funds, and suggested that he not go out of his way to help his Dad clean up his accounts or feel guilty about this anymore. I told him, I'm not wasting my time on this anymore; it's obvious that the advice is being ignored, so let him do what he wants, and if he does run out of money, he can figure it out on his own.  Still, I feel bad for hubby; that's easier said than done.  We just have to keep reminding ourselves:

Ah, how do you know what kind of retiree you will be?  My parents are both gone, as are all of my grandparents.

My husband's grandparents - one set of them was much like this when they retired.  They were so defiant they turned into children!  I guess 2 out of 6 isn't bad?  I'm not sure why they were like this.  My husband's parents tried to help guide them into looking after their own interests.  They would nod their heads and agree, then do what they wanted and laugh afterwards.  Disengage is all I can say.  To be honest, both of them ended up in a home eventually - the grandfather did not last long (he'd had a stroke) and the grandmother lived in the home (a depressing state home, because that's all the state would cover) for 15-20 years?  She was 95 or 97 when she died.

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5613 on: January 03, 2020, 11:17:23 AM »
I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here? 

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5614 on: January 03, 2020, 12:16:09 PM »
I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here?

Pretty much everyone has at least one stupid and/or crazy relative!

solon

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5615 on: January 03, 2020, 01:37:03 PM »
I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here?

Pretty much everyone has at least one stupid and/or crazy relative!

and if you don't...

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5616 on: January 03, 2020, 01:40:02 PM »
I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here?

Pretty much everyone has at least one stupid and/or crazy relative!

and if you don't...

Then either you're very lucky or you're their crazy relative! :)

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5617 on: January 03, 2020, 06:07:43 PM »
I am not a fan of these mega-threads, because it's hard to tell which are original posts and which are responses.  And it also makes it so fewer threads are on the first page.  Are there really this many musings that we need mega-threads here?

Feel free to skip them instead of making them even longer! ;)

dmac680chi

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5618 on: January 05, 2020, 12:19:21 PM »
So I gotta talk a bit about my parents. For context, I'm 26-year-old guy who moved out of my parent's house in October.

My parents have worked in the financial sector for the last 20+ years each. They've been very successful and before the 2008 recession made boatloads of money being able to afford quite a nice lifestyle. As such my parents have a nice condo in a major city that's really nice. This time last year my mom lost her job as her company was restructuring. She'd been working for the same company for 15+ years. Currently, she's "looking" for work. The original plan for my dad to retire when his older boss steps down or dies and my mom to work till 60 or so. My dad is panicked as somehow my mom (my dad claims not sure about the numbers) has managed to spend $10-15k a month even when unemployed. She obviously needs a job. This spending makes me worried and makes me want to emphasize communication with whoever I settle down with. I'd also say they probably need marriage counseling because of this but they're still stubborn and won't do that.

The other aspect of this is my mom grew up wealthy, having money taken from the trust of her grandparents. As such my grandparents have spent gobs and gobs of money over the years, also not quite surprising the money from the trust was mismanaged and mishandled. To my understanding, my grandparents didn't think much about retirement and now they (my mom's parents) have ongoing health issues. They moved into a semi-assisted living facility which is good given their health issues. That said since they pretty much have drained everything from that trust, they want my parents to contribute $100k or more to help their retirement, I think it's more like $300k. Although I want them to still be alive being expecting to give that kind of money seems excessive and ridiculous. Also, last I heard they might get half the money they contribute back but even then it seems too good to be true plus stupid.

Surprise surprise, my parents and grandparents don't budget at all. I myself have found the app You Need A Budget (YNAB) really helpful to help manage my spending. That said they're too stubborn to budget. My aunt discovered my grandparents were spending $800 a month at Costco....not sure how that's possible.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5619 on: January 05, 2020, 12:31:05 PM »
Here's your situation in a nutshell:

1) You should not plan to get an inheritance.   You have 3 to 4 spendthrifts between you and whatever is left.   
(No one should ever make their sole plan to get an inheritance anyway, so you haven't lost anything.)

2) It's only your business if you make it your business.   Say your piece.  Said comments, if you make them, should include "You need to plan for your retirement because I'm not going to be able to handle my own AND yours.   Since you've said they are too stubborn to listen anyway, I suggest saying nothing.

3) In your FI plans, include a smallish amount that will set them up in a very cheap home in a very LCOL area and cover their moving costs.  This could be a trailer home on a small plot of land or an inexpensive house (~$30k-60k).  At that point, their social security should cover their living costs.   Expect them to destroy the house thru lack of maintenance.  Give them the house, you do not want your finances or LIABILITIES mixed up with their behavior.  Other than that, you're done.     Frankly, choices have consequences and I would not chastise you if you just let them deal with the consequences of their stubbornness.   We're not talking about people who had no or limited chances in life to get it right.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 03:03:51 PM by SwordGuy »

DaMa

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5620 on: January 05, 2020, 02:22:14 PM »
I've spent a lot of time with my DSIL, and have shared some low key cost cutting options...like cutting cable and MVNOs for cheaper cell service.  Her husband, DBIL uses and old flip phone and only talk and text.  So I mentioned he could probably get that super cheap.  So she texts me this morning asking about Boost Mobile.  I go google cheapest cell plans and find Twigby.com for talk/text only.  Search "Twigby" in MMM forums and find some positive reviews.  I check out the Twigby website -- $9.75/mo for 6 months.  So I send DSIL the info.

She calls me and tells me she just got off the phone with Sprint, her current carrier.  They can give her a plan for $35 a line - $105 for 3 lines, compared to the $190 she has been paying them.  So I tell her that she could go $10 for DBIL, $15 on another for her (uses <1 gB data per month) and daughter could go get her own plan (since she is MARRIED and works fulltime and is not at all strapped financially -- I didn't actually say this part out loud).

She says, well I'm already saving almost $100 so why go to the trouble of changing?

Monerexia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5621 on: January 06, 2020, 10:07:11 PM »
Rather than lamenting that others are wired different, I've found it helpful to provide incentives they can understand. I can go into and understand their world, they cannot come into mine--they cannot even see it. Of course this is an old, old idea. So far so good.

I only lament here, my place to anonymously roll my eyes. In real life I've offered my share of helpful suggestions but I won't beat anyone over the head for their choices vs mine. We lead by example. People don't see it or can't see it or can't delay their gratification.

Nah I just loan them money. 5K is requested. 18% $100 processing fee $249/month for two years. Done this several times with varying amounts over the years. So far so good...:)

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5622 on: January 08, 2020, 07:49:51 AM »
She says, well I'm already saving almost $100 so why go to the trouble of changing?

Well b/c with a $10 a month plan, your relative would be saving almost another $100 for a total of almost $200 a month saved on cell phones.

Side note: dropped and broke my phone over the holidays. Determined I could happily go without again I've decided.

Have a ~$10 PAYGO plan but alas Dad duties dictate keeping a phone. Will buy another cheap one soon I've promised.

Step37

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5623 on: January 11, 2020, 09:22:49 PM »
Just spent five days visiting my sister. Iíd assumed the third vehicle (Mercedes coupe) in the driveway belonged to the person whoís temporarily staying with them, so I was confused on day three when she said I could take it on an errand. My sister and BIL are very spendy people who have had to borrow money from me at times when business was slow (currently owe me nothing). They are hoping to sell their property soon, as they are tapped out with the business theyíre in. Imagine my surprise to learn that the Mercedes belongs to my sister. I was unable to hide my initial reaction of incredulous horror, and it got a little awkward... Says sister, ďDonít worry, itís only $400/mo for the lease, and Iíve always wanted a Mercedes.Ē Never mind that there are two perfectly nice vehicles, that they have recently bought out leases on, sitting right there. I mean, why bother trying to get your monthly expenses down to the bare minimum when you want to sell everything and move?


ender

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5624 on: January 12, 2020, 07:57:42 AM »
Just spent five days visiting my sister. Iíd assumed the third vehicle (Mercedes coupe) in the driveway belonged to the person whoís temporarily staying with them, so I was confused on day three when she said I could take it on an errand. My sister and BIL are very spendy people who have had to borrow money from me at times when business was slow (currently owe me nothing). They are hoping to sell their property soon, as they are tapped out with the business theyíre in. Imagine my surprise to learn that the Mercedes belongs to my sister. I was unable to hide my initial reaction of incredulous horror, and it got a little awkward... Says sister, ďDonít worry, itís only $400/mo for the lease, and Iíve always wanted a Mercedes.Ē Never mind that there are two perfectly nice vehicles, that they have recently bought out leases on, sitting right there. I mean, why bother trying to get your monthly expenses down to the bare minimum when you want to sell everything and move?

Something tells me this won't change anytime soon now..

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5625 on: January 12, 2020, 09:35:51 AM »
Just spent five days visiting my sister. Iíd assumed the third vehicle (Mercedes coupe) in the driveway belonged to the person whoís temporarily staying with them, so I was confused on day three when she said I could take it on an errand. My sister and BIL are very spendy people who have had to borrow money from me at times when business was slow (currently owe me nothing). They are hoping to sell their property soon, as they are tapped out with the business theyíre in. Imagine my surprise to learn that the Mercedes belongs to my sister. I was unable to hide my initial reaction of incredulous horror, and it got a little awkward... Says sister, ďDonít worry, itís only $400/mo for the lease, and Iíve always wanted a Mercedes.Ē Never mind that there are two perfectly nice vehicles, that they have recently bought out leases on, sitting right there. I mean, why bother trying to get your monthly expenses down to the bare minimum when you want to sell everything and move?

Don't lend them any more money.

Step37

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5626 on: January 12, 2020, 09:54:07 AM »
@ender  @Sibley

No, there will be no further money lending. Itís one irresponsible, short-sighted decision after another with these two... I didnít even mention that they live ON THE PROPERTY where they run the business, so could quite likely get by with one car with a bit of planning and the occasional rental.

They are very likeable, kind people and I donít want to damage our relationship by lending them money again (and they have not asked - things are stable. For now.). I will offer advice only (if asked).

Jouer

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5627 on: January 13, 2020, 07:46:26 AM »
Massive job loss in Alberta, which has been tricking down to many businesses. Better lease a luxury car.

Dear lord.

Step37

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5628 on: January 13, 2020, 09:36:53 AM »
Massive job loss in Alberta, which has been tricking down to many businesses. Better lease a luxury car.

Dear lord.

Theyíre actually in SoCal, but a poor decision regardless!

Zamboni

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5629 on: January 13, 2020, 05:41:17 PM »
I have a relative who has always been a very high earner (low-mid six figure salary), but who also has always told tales of whoa about money to anyone who will listen. Said relative has a child who plays an extremely expensive national travel sport . . . and I am also sometimes at the same events since my child also plays.

I don't always go, though, due to financial goals and and also a desire for my child to gain independence. You see, the teams travel without parents, and this is paid for up front when your kid makes a team. But, parents can pay for their own travel separately if they would like to watch. This relative ALWAYS travels to these events, which often require flights and multi-night hotel stays at places like Hiltons and Marriotts. I am absolutely certain he has not missed a single event in the past 5 years. For some of this time he has had a high income, and for other times he has been unemployed.

Anyway, at one of the events, a player mom from his daughter's team approached me. She told me she had been sitting with him watching the event, and that he had told her he was in serious financial trouble. At that point, he had been unemployed for some time (was actually unemployed prior to team tryouts and this was near the end of the season), but his spending had not slowed down one iota. He told her he was close to bankruptcy. She told me his tale of whoa and said she was taking up a collection from all of the parents on his daughters team to help him, and she wanted to know if I also wanted to contribute since I am related. Some of the parents are very well off, so I'm sure she had a good amount of money already at that point. I told her that is kind of her, but I declined to contribute.

She seemed shocked . . . lol, but it wore off I bet! On the last day of the event I saw him an asked how things were going. He told me with great delight that the other parents had given him a cash gift the night before, so he went out to celebrate at Joe's Crab Shack. He got a boil pot, whatever that is. Nothing says "OMG thank you for saving me from bankruptcy!" like buying yourself a $50 crab dinner.

(Just for the record, when I do go to these things, I usually grocery shop and eat in my room at these events. I will sometimes attend one "team meal" to socialize with other parents, but that's it.)

RWD

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5630 on: January 13, 2020, 06:19:43 PM »
tales of whoa

The phrase is "tales of woe". Silly English language and its homonyms!

Kris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5631 on: January 13, 2020, 06:22:29 PM »
tales of whoa

The phrase is "tales of woe". Silly English language and its homonyms!


Ha... I wasnít going to say anything...

Zamboni

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5632 on: January 13, 2020, 07:59:29 PM »
Hahaha, yes, worth it just to see that!

Edited to add that I am completely homonym challenged. Somehow I can keep their, there, and they're straight, but I will accidentally type the wrong form of one/won. Meh.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 08:01:54 PM by Zamboni »

PMG

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5633 on: January 13, 2020, 08:44:09 PM »
I think there is some whoa in that story as well as woe.

Monerexia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5634 on: January 13, 2020, 10:02:20 PM »
And now, another tale of whoa: Spoke with my sister today about how my brother, who lives with my mother in his mid forties, has again charged unauthorized charges on her credit card. My sister is still in "help him" mode, even though this person has ripped all of us off over the decades, and is stunningly lazy, corrupt and abusive. Almost impressive actually. She said something like the problem is "he needs to learn to live within his means." First off, he has no means as he's chronically unemployed and works fewer hours in a year than I do in a week. Secondarily he has no need to get any means as he has a herd of enablers around him to "help help help." So embarrassed to be related to this clown haha

TheFrenchCat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5635 on: January 14, 2020, 08:25:07 AM »
And now, another tale of whoa: Spoke with my sister today about how my brother, who lives with my mother in his mid forties, has again charged unauthorized charges on her credit card. My sister is still in "help him" mode, even though this person has ripped all of us off over the decades, and is stunningly lazy, corrupt and abusive. Almost impressive actually. She said something like the problem is "he needs to learn to live within his means." First off, he has no means as he's chronically unemployed and works fewer hours in a year than I do in a week. Secondarily he has no need to get any means as he has a herd of enablers around him to "help help help." So embarrassed to be related to this clown haha

Goodness, this is what I'm so scared my brother's going to end up like.  They sound so similar, except my brother is in his mid twenties.  And it's pretty much just my mom enabling.  Which makes me worry about her retirement, especially since she pays a car loan on a car for him and is in almost 10k of credit card debt. 

If you don't mind my asking, do you still have a relationship with him?  If so, do you have any advice on how to navigate that?  If not, do you have any advice on how to maintain your relationship with your mom while he lives with her?  Thanks.

economista

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5636 on: January 14, 2020, 10:37:04 AM »
My sister is a giant train wreck, but she is only 24 so she will hopefully grow out of it at some point. I just looked at facebook and apparently her dog is sick. She said the dog has has bloody stool for the past few days and now it is basically all blood. She made a post about how vets are too expensive and how  unfair it is that they won't work with her. Digging into the post and her comments under it, the vet said he is pretty sure what the issue is but it will cost $200 for the visit, blood work, and meds. My sister says she doesn't have $200 and they won't work with her on payments. She said they only offer care credit and she was denied. She set up a facebook fundraiser but then saw that it said it would take up to 7 days for her to receive the money so she closed it, and made a post listing her paypal account and asking people to please donate directly to it to help save her dog. Someone commented and told her she should go to the local payday loan place, but she said she can't because she took out a loan from them a few months ago and she is still paying on it so they won't give her another one. It is utterly crazy to me that she would choose to own a dog when she can't afford to take care of it! She is barely able to feed herself and she doesn't even have a penny in savings.

MissNancyPryor

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5637 on: January 14, 2020, 11:36:59 AM »
Ugh, so sad for that dog.  Just the other day I made an appt for my cat and stumbled across a similarly-named vet clinic in another state that had a FB page.  Some dum-dum posted a scathing review of the place because they read somewhere else that the clinic had denied free service to someone who wanted a C-section for their dog.  Then other people had piled on (keep in mind none of the people complaining were directly involved but rather saw some sob story elsewhere and they decided to pollute the clinic's FB page.)

People tried to defend the clinic saying that there is no reason it is their fault that 1) the dog was allowed to become pregnant in a household that had zero resources, and 2) The clinic has no obligation to give services away for free just because someone said they needed it. 

This is not the same as a child showing up at the emergency room where the unpaid costs of service are managed entirely differently and there is an unmistakeable moral obligation.  It is much more like someone showing up to a mechanic demanding their car be fixed for free because they need it because (sob story reasons), only with the heartbreak that there is an innocent animal suffering the consequences.  Both providers may occasionally do some pro bono work as they choose but there is no obligation to do so.   

As predicted the dum-dum just doubled down and declared that everyone holding a different opinion was pure devil's spawn and that the person had a right to do with their dog what they wanted.  Gross.     

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5638 on: January 14, 2020, 11:49:17 AM »
These are the people driving the high suicide rate among veterinarians

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5639 on: January 14, 2020, 12:21:23 PM »
These are the people driving the high suicide rate among veterinarians

That's really sad.  I didn't know that they had a high suicide rate.

I have a cousin like the siblings you describe above. Luckily no pets though. Why do parents (it seems more often to be mothers) do this to their children?  Apparently my cousin has been spoiled more or less since birth.  Other family members told me stories of him waking up in the middle of the night when he was around 5 insisting that his mother cook his favorite foods for him - and she actually did it.  And it was all downhill from there.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5640 on: January 14, 2020, 12:57:23 PM »
@economista , can you find it in your heart to pay the dog's vet bill?  It shouldn't have to suffer because of it's owner.  Poor dog must be in pain.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5641 on: January 14, 2020, 01:09:15 PM »
I think there is some whoa in that story as well as woe.
Definitely!

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5642 on: January 14, 2020, 01:10:32 PM »
These are the people driving the high suicide rate among veterinarians

That's really sad.  I didn't know that they had a high suicide rate.




We just lost one of our favorite vets to suicide at the practice we go to.

Aside from issues like this, they have nearly the same job, schooling, and cost of medical doctors without the same pay (albeit probably with less malpractice insurance), and their patients cannot talk to them and are always frightened even when it is a normal checkup. Their patients are almost sure to die on them at some point while in their care (assuming both pet and vet stay at the same practice for most of their life/career), and they have to console the pet owners as well... And for a lot of them, all while trying to run a business.

Oh, and have you ever heard a doctor complain about WebMD? Well, same thing happens with pets, only there is more of it. A vet (friend of ours) was telling me that a patients owner (customer) was instructing her on the correct way to spay her cat. The vet handed her a scalpel and told her she was welcome to try it if she thought her internet research was better than her BS, MS, DVM, and PhD from a respected university.

Not to mention that rural vets are having a really hard time finding people to take the jobs - most vets coming out of school are female suburbanites who want to work on cats and dogs in the suburbs. Getting them to come out to Bismark, ND where they can't pay them much and will have to go stand in a muddy field at 11:30PM because a calf is breeched is a tough proposition, so the vets that ARE there are overworked.

MissNancyPryor

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5643 on: January 14, 2020, 01:10:50 PM »
These are the people driving the high suicide rate among veterinarians

That's really sad.  I didn't know that they had a high suicide rate.

I have a cousin like the siblings you describe above. Luckily no pets though. Why do parents (it seems more often to be mothers) do this to their children?  Apparently my cousin has been spoiled more or less since birth.  Other family members told me stories of him waking up in the middle of the night when he was around 5 insisting that his mother cook his favorite foods for him - and she actually did it.  And it was all downhill from there.

Those Kraft cheese commercials were the kid won't eat dinner unless it is mac n cheese or some other Kraft cheese thing make me unreasonably angry.  The little shit won't eat what is offered for dinner?  See you in the morning, Junior. 

My mom always said that the marker for parental indulgence and subsequent consequences for most humans is determined on the drive home from the hospital.  Kids whose parents could not bear the sound of that new infant crying in the car seat and stopped to remove them and hold them in their lap on the way home were likely to have a lot of discipline problems with those kids their whole lives.  Kids who had to cry their way through the ride but were immeasurably safer by being left in the car seat were going to be just fine.   

I am sure there are exceptions but it sounds about right to me.   

economista

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5644 on: January 14, 2020, 01:15:16 PM »
@economista , can you find it in your heart to pay the dog's vet bill?  It shouldn't have to suffer because of it's owner.  Poor dog must be in pain.

It's a difficult situation. Yes, I could pay it for her. My husband and I have discussed it and we both agreed years ago that her and my mom would never receive anymore handouts from me (us). If she is always bailed out she is never going to learn. She is also soliciting donations from her friends on facebook and since she didn't do it in a transparent manner, I can't see how much has already been donated. Honestly, if she stopped smoking cigarettes and pot she would have more than enough money to pay for the dog.

That all being said, this afternoon I plan to call my grandparents and see if she has gotten the money yet from them. They are pushovers and always end up giving her the money when she gives them a sob story. If she hasn't I will bring it up with my husband again. I'm not there to see it followed through on, but if I did give her the money I would tell her she needs to find a new family for the dog since she has demonstrated that she isn't responsible enough to own one.

BlueHouse

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5645 on: January 14, 2020, 01:29:58 PM »
Obviously, getting the journalism degree on student loans would have been better than an engineering one under the GI Bill, but hey, you live and learn, ama-right

I'm a fan of the non-traditional path. My kids are in a high school where they learn a trade half the day. I'm talking to the oldest about doing a year of community service/working before going to college. She's open to it.

But it's tough because some of her friends give off this vibe like they're better [off] than she is because they're going away to university. Where we live, it's like everyone has to go to college at 18. It's really not the right path for everyone, at least not at 18.

Yep - our eldest did a similar path as your daughter with HS vocational classes and friends here gave eldest the same vibe as your daughter got.

Fortunately eldest was wise enough to recognize that college money at that point in time would be waste as the eldest isn't ready for college. Is signed up for a state vocational school now. The school has a waiting list. We can afford to send eldest to a nearby state university later if that becomes a goal for eldest.

Live and learn: absolutely. Very happy with life's outcome but I definitely made some inefficient choices along the way aka mistakes. Should have far more money saved up and closer to retirement. We will still retire at ~60 with a comfortable situation.

My son graduated from a "prestigious" high school where everyone was expected to attend college.  The graduation program listed the kids' college choices.  One was listed as "gap year"  I asked my son about that and he replied "X isn't going to college, his grandparents own a large B&B.  He is going to work there for a couple of years and then the grandparents will retire and he will take over"   The school just couldn't write "no college"

This was the attitude in the time and place where I went to HS.  My family still has this attitude.  I remember when my brother told my mom he wasn't going to college.  My mom threw a bowl of milk at him (just the milk, not the bowl) and yelled "Fine, greasemonkey!"  I had never seen my mom react in anger before or since.  ever. 

My brother eventually went to college - we all did -- and graduated.  But it was torture for some of us.  At the time a college degree basically guaranteed your career success for people who looked like us (white) and who came from "a good family", so I'm glad i did it.  But if the choice were today, I can think of a million other things I could do to support myself. 

AMandM

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5646 on: January 14, 2020, 02:47:18 PM »
My sister says she doesn't have $200 and they won't work with her on payments. She said they only offer care credit and she was denied. [...] Someone commented and told her she should go to the local payday loan place, but she said she can't because she took out a loan from them a few months ago and she is still paying on it so they won't give her another one.

Sounds like the vet is smart for not "working with her."

Monerexia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5647 on: January 14, 2020, 02:52:22 PM »
And now, another tale of whoa: Spoke with my sister today about how my brother, who lives with my mother in his mid forties, has again charged unauthorized charges on her credit card. My sister is still in "help him" mode, even though this person has ripped all of us off over the decades, and is stunningly lazy, corrupt and abusive. Almost impressive actually. She said something like the problem is "he needs to learn to live within his means." First off, he has no means as he's chronically unemployed and works fewer hours in a year than I do in a week. Secondarily he has no need to get any means as he has a herd of enablers around him to "help help help." So embarrassed to be related to this clown haha

Goodness, this is what I'm so scared my brother's going to end up like.  They sound so similar, except my brother is in his mid twenties.  And it's pretty much just my mom enabling.  Which makes me worry about her retirement, especially since she pays a car loan on a car for him and is in almost 10k of credit card debt. 

If you don't mind my asking, do you still have a relationship with him?  If so, do you have any advice on how to navigate that?  If not, do you have any advice on how to maintain your relationship with your mom while he lives with her?  Thanks.

Well, it's difficult because one can't properly have a relationship with a corrupt person. My family is so naive and think the best of people that they just believe his lies and excuses. This is his currency and they're still accepting it. The problem with maintaining my relationship with my mother is that he not only lives with her he insisted on living in the front room as his bedroom, which is now hoarderville as he smokes pot and takes benzos daily while watching TV. One has to go past him to get to my mother's room way in the back. As he is a true professional victim, incredibly abusive as well as being armed, it's best to stay away. We did try for a long time. We all strongly insisted he not be permitted to live in the front room but my mother, as always, protected him from the big bad siblings so now they pretty much live in hoarderville and I refuse to visit. We all make our choices.

As far as advice goes--this got away from us because of women in my family not being able to hold boundaries. Lazy abusive men find these kind of women and use them--even if not maliciously, just in a whiny pussified way haha. It's difficult to ask a mother to prosecute and evict, but that's always on my wish list and I'm not one to care about somebody's housing more than they do. Save yourself, kid. And that's how people learn, by facing challenges and getting a harsh reality check.

SunnyDays

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5648 on: January 14, 2020, 03:15:41 PM »
@economista , can you find it in your heart to pay the dog's vet bill?  It shouldn't have to suffer because of it's owner.  Poor dog must be in pain.

It's a difficult situation. Yes, I could pay it for her. My husband and I have discussed it and we both agreed years ago that her and my mom would never receive anymore handouts from me (us). If she is always bailed out she is never going to learn. She is also soliciting donations from her friends on facebook and since she didn't do it in a transparent manner, I can't see how much has already been donated. Honestly, if she stopped smoking cigarettes and pot she would have more than enough money to pay for the dog.

That all being said, this afternoon I plan to call my grandparents and see if she has gotten the money yet from them. They are pushovers and always end up giving her the money when she gives them a sob story. If she hasn't I will bring it up with my husband again. I'm not there to see it followed through on, but if I did give her the money I would tell her she needs to find a new family for the dog since she has demonstrated that she isn't responsible enough to own one.

If it comes down to it, you could notify the SPCA that an ill dog is not being treated and they will give your sister some amount of time to get it to a vet (maybe immediately if they feel itís justified or they can seize the dog themselves. Itís a drastic step but might be a good wake up call.

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5649 on: January 14, 2020, 03:21:45 PM »
These are the people driving the high suicide rate among veterinarians

That's really sad.  I didn't know that they had a high suicide rate.




We just lost one of our favorite vets to suicide at the practice we go to.

Aside from issues like this, they have nearly the same job, schooling, and cost of medical doctors without the same pay (albeit probably with less malpractice insurance), and their patients cannot talk to them and are always frightened even when it is a normal checkup. Their patients are almost sure to die on them at some point while in their care (assuming both pet and vet stay at the same practice for most of their life/career), and they have to console the pet owners as well... And for a lot of them, all while trying to run a business.

Oh, and have you ever heard a doctor complain about WebMD? Well, same thing happens with pets, only there is more of it. A vet (friend of ours) was telling me that a patients owner (customer) was instructing her on the correct way to spay her cat. The vet handed her a scalpel and told her she was welcome to try it if she thought her internet research was better than her BS, MS, DVM, and PhD from a respected university.

Not to mention that rural vets are having a really hard time finding people to take the jobs - most vets coming out of school are female suburbanites who want to work on cats and dogs in the suburbs. Getting them to come out to Bismark, ND where they can't pay them much and will have to go stand in a muddy field at 11:30PM because a calf is breeched is a tough proposition, so the vets that ARE there are overworked.

So sad. Our vets are amazing. We need to a better job of telling them so.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!