Relatives who just don't get it

[RetiredAt63]

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

In the part of the states that I live in, there are three observations. The first is that the ratio need not be in number of vehicles, but in miles per vehicle. An American might only drive for a couple hours a day, factoring in errands and averaging in a three four hour trip once a month. While a lorrie drives for nine to twelve hours without stopping: each truck is worth six to twenty four regular cars in time on the road.
Secondly, trucks drive in many places people do not: the company I work for receives a flatbed worth of materials from New Jersey every two weeks. A person who had to travel one third the width of the country every other week would probably fly. If you drive in between the big cities of the Midwest, perhaps one car in fifty is a lorrie of some kind.
Thirdly, to avoid congestion, trucks drive at many times people do not. If you are up and driving between four and six in the morning, perhaps one car in thirty is a lorrie.

I've driven major highways at times when at least half the vehicles were tractor trailers.  Late at night most people are not driving long distances, but the truckers are out in force.

In the past I've also seen highways in Quebec where the right hand land literally had depressions from the weight of the trucks.  You could see it clearly when the light was right, and they wee clearly from trucks, not cars becasue of the size.

[AlanStache]

Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn

Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

When we first moved in we had roommates, but over time they all moved out and we never backfilled. Now it's just the wife and I with no plans for kids. The 3 empty bedrooms stay shut for weeks at a time, I closed off the AC vents to them. Hopefully that'll keep dust from accumulating. The smaller homes that are closer to fitting what we want run double what we paid for this one >_>

... That's just absolutely ridiculous. If it was just me and my husband, I'd definitely be looking for a way smaller space, just for maintenance. Ridiculous.

With kids, you DO ... well, I don't wanna say 'need', but you definitely appreciate extra space. Not 4K square feet of space (wtf), but even with 2300sqft we're gonna have shared bedrooms going on, so.

I am in a similar situation with one of three bedrooms 'permanently' closed up.  House is 1400sq and much of it is never used but there are few homes that are that much smaller and the transaction cost to move would probably not be worth it.  And who knows maybe one day I will want a yoga room or vr flight simulator room :-)

[Gangly1]

Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

You are way underestimating the amount of truck traffic (at least for the US, but I'd assume the UK also).  In 2015, commercial trucks accounted for about 9% of all vehicle miles traveled.  So that is about 1:11 trucks:cars.  https://www.bts.gov/bts-publications/freight-facts-and-figures/freight-facts-figures-2017-chapter-3-freight

[OtherJen]

For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

Yeah, our friends tend to think that we're poor. Husband and I live in a small fixer-upper that we've been slowly fixing up over the last 15 years. We've replaced the roof, gutted and rebuilt the kitchen and bathroom, bought new appliances, a new furnace, and water heater, and installed vinyl siding, new flooring and paint in all rooms, and a new garage door.

We do one project at a time so that we don't take on large amounts of debt. Currently, our only debt other than our $54K mortgage balance is $2300 on a 0% interest credit card to cover the unexpectedly large roof cost this spring (our home improvement cash savings for this covered all but $3000). I spent a lot of time yesterday in a Discount Tire waiting room waiting for a tire patch and listened to several discussions about financing because others couldn't afford $500 for new tires. I could have covered cost that in cash yesterday if needed, and have done so in the past.

We live differently from other people. I'm okay with that.

[theskyisblue]

Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

Maybe what he was trying to say is this:  "You're my girl and I want to protect you and knowing that you are riding around on a bike in traffic scares the sh*t out of me.  Please, please, please rent a big SUV so that I know you're safe and I don't have to worry about you even on a work trip when someone else is paying for the damn car!  Gheesh!" 

But because he can't say that he had to make up a crazy financial argument b/c he thinks it will be more effective since you care about financial things.

[A Fella from Stella]

For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

Yeah, our friends tend to think that we're poor. Husband and I live in a small fixer-upper that we've been slowly fixing up over the last 15 years. We've replaced the roof, gutted and rebuilt the kitchen and bathroom, bought new appliances, a new furnace, and water heater, and installed vinyl siding, new flooring and paint in all rooms, and a new garage door.

We do one project at a time so that we don't take on large amounts of debt. Currently, our only debt other than our $54K mortgage balance is $2300 on a 0% interest credit card to cover the unexpectedly large roof cost this spring (our home improvement cash savings for this covered all but $3000). I spent a lot of time yesterday in a Discount Tire waiting room waiting for a tire patch and listened to several discussions about financing because others couldn't afford $500 for new tires. I could have covered cost that in cash yesterday if needed, and have done so in the past.

We live differently from other people. I'm okay with that.

@OtherJen, that's fantastic.

With such low debt, you must feel at ease with your finances. I certainly hope so.

We have much more debt than that, but we were pre-mustache for a very long time.

[A Fella from Stella]

Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

Maybe what he was trying to say is this:  "You're my girl and I want to protect you and knowing that you are riding around on a bike in traffic scares the sh*t out of me.  Please, please, please rent a big SUV so that I know you're safe and I don't have to worry about you even on a work trip when someone else is paying for the damn car!  Gheesh!" 

But because he can't say that he had to make up a crazy financial argument b/c he thinks it will be more effective since you care about financial things.

That's very kind of you. I'll add that maybe he's just disagreeable; like the kind of guy who thinks it's smart-sounding to disagree, just like someone who can't think, so they say they can "see both sides" when one side is so obviously wrong, therefore, in seeing both sides, choosing one would be easy.

Who calls not paying outrageous rental car tax rates "freeloading"? And even if you are, isn't that a good thing - to find a loophole? Wouldn't it be worse, then, to drive your own car and wear out the road when you didn't pay the taxes? How about if you bring your own food so you don't have to stop along the way?

[Just Joe]

But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

[GreenToTheCore]

Thanks all for the great responses. I was really feeling that the world had shifted on its axis a bit.

Kudos @happypigday for trying to figure out a positive spin on it. Reminds me that I should send my parents a safety study I just read. 

[Imma]

But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

I used to have a boss who would in all seriousness argue that him driving to work in his big Mercedes was better for the environment than me cycling, because it would be years before the pollution from the production of the steel my bike was made from was compensated and it would take even longer because I need to eat extra food due to all my cycling. Of course his Merc wasn't made from metal and doesn't need fuel :/

Guy even used the "trust me I'm an engineer" argument.

[TomTX]

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

That chart caps out at some pretty lightweight lorries. In the USA, the common 18-wheeler starts out at ~18 tons EMPTY, with a legal limit of 40 tons full.

Note that approximate doubling of weight from the Hummer to the 9 ton lorry makes the damage go up 20x. That would put an empty 18-wheeler at around 8,200x damage of a car and a full one at 164,000x

Between that and 9% of vehicle miles traveled, I did lowball things above - it's more like >99% of road damage in the USA is from trucks. State road planners in Texas completely ignore cars for road damage calculations (not for congestion, just damage).

[2Cent]

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

That chart caps out at some pretty lightweight lorries. In the USA, the common 18-wheeler starts out at ~18 tons EMPTY, with a legal limit of 40 tons full.

Note that approximate doubling of weight from the Hummer to the 9 ton lorry makes the damage go up 20x. That would put an empty 18-wheeler at around 8,200x damage of a car and a full one at 164,000x

Between that and 9% of vehicle miles traveled, I did lowball things above - it's more like >99% of road damage in the USA is from trucks. State road planners in Texas completely ignore cars for road damage calculations (not for congestion, just damage).

You have to divide by the amount of wheels as the damage = nr of wheels * weitght/wheels. So two 4 wheelers of 1 ton are the same as 1 2 ton 8 wheeler. Also larger wheels would be less damaging. It's still a huge difference though.

[Dragonswan]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.

It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

[Just Joe]

But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

I used to have a boss who would in all seriousness argue that him driving to work in his big Mercedes was better for the environment than me cycling, because it would be years before the pollution from the production of the steel my bike was made from was compensated and it would take even longer because I need to eat extra food due to all my cycling. Of course his Merc wasn't made from metal and doesn't need fuel :/

Guy even used the "trust me I'm an engineer" argument.

Some people are so over the top ridiculous and can't even see it. Did you manage a straight face?

[DadJokes]

Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

Are weigh stations even used? I don't know if I've ever seen one that was open.

[Dragonswan]

They are in my neck of the woods.  Though I'll admit it's 50/50 if the station is open.

[Fi(re) on the Farm]

Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

Are weigh stations even used? I don't know if I've ever seen one that was open.

My brother is a long haul trucker and probably breaks the law all the time. No trucker worth his shit goes through a weigh station. They all get off the highway the exit before and get off the exit after. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just stating a fact.

[Dragonswan]

Really!?  Because when the thing is open, there's always a steady line of trucks pushing their way back onto the highway.  Is there any sort of paperwork the weigh station gives the driver  (or electronically put in a system by license plate) so if they get stopped by cops they can prove they went through?  I mean there has to be some kind of deterrent to flaunting the law.

[ysette9]

I can think of one weigh station in my larger metropolitan area and I’ve never seen it open

[EricEng]

Really!?  Because when the thing is open, there's always a steady line of trucks pushing their way back onto the highway.  Is there any sort of paperwork the weigh station gives the driver  (or electronically put in a system by license plate) so if they get stopped by cops they can prove they went through?  I mean there has to be some kind of deterrent to flaunting the law.

Yes there is.  Coworker used to be a cop who sole responsibility was to enforce weigh stations.

Active weigh stations tend to be on main freeway artery for long haul.  Too easy to bypass near major cities.

[Dragonswan]

Thank you.  That would explain why the one near me is open a lot and busy.

[Sugaree]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent. 

[TomTX]

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.

It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

Perhaps where you live. In the USA, trucks do grossly disproportionate damage compared to the amount they pay.

[SwordGuy]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

[Sugaree]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

[Sibley]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Given that information, if your father passes, be prepared to either buy the house at market value or move so the house can be sold. Your mother may need the money from the house.

[Sugaree]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Given that information, if your father passes, be prepared to either buy the house at market value or move so the house can be sold. Your mother may need the money from the house.

Yeah, the only other option is for my mother to move in with us and that won't go well at all.

[Kris]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Ugh.

I would try to have this conversation again. And when she says, "Stay in your own lane," then respond, "Okay, that's fine. But to be clear, if this is what you want, then 'my lane' doesn't include bailing you out in the future if you screw this up. Agreed?"

[Dragonswan]

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.
[/quote]

There are laws against age discrimination in lending. Most banks don't expect, and most buyers don't either, to be in the same house for 30 years to pay a mortgage off in this manner.  People are much more mobile than years ago and don't necessarily view their homes as forever homes.  I intend to buy my next house when I'm 60 and whether or not I get a loan will be based on my credit history, salary, down payment, and debt to income ratio.  It won't be based on if the bank thinks I'll live to 90 to pay it off.

About your specific situation, would your father agree to let you take out a life insurance policy on him?

[Sugaree]

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

There are laws against age discrimination in lending. Most banks don't expect, and most buyers don't either, to be in the same house for 30 years to pay a mortgage off in this manner.  People are much more mobile than years ago and don't necessarily view their homes as forever homes.  I intend to buy my next house when I'm 60 and whether or not I get a loan will be based on my credit history, salary, down payment, and debt to income ratio.  It won't be based on if the bank thinks I'll live to 90 to pay it off.

About your specific situation, would your father agree to let you take out a life insurance policy on him?
[/quote]

That's interesting because my father in law was turned down a few weeks ago for a car loan and age was mentioned as a reason.  Though his credit probably sucks because he pays cash for everything.

[Dragonswan]

Hmmm.  Were you with him when they turned him down?  Because he might be just saying that to save face, not realizing that his credit score is poor for a good reason.

[Frankies Girl]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Um... I honestly wouldn't say another word to them including that you mom is on her own if your dad dies. I think you have a blindspot towards your position vs their position. You are not standing on a firm foundation of being 100% self-supporting yourself.

Your living in a house heavily subsidized by their generosity. Getting a house for prop taxes/maintenance - so rent/mortgage free - seems kind of tone deaf to be overly critical of their money choices. And to say you're not going to help them when they are obviously helping you? I really think it's kind of bad to do this. They've avoided selling that house you're living in for reasons only they know, and your 65 year old dad refinanced their own house instead of just telling you to either buy the one you are living in or get ready to move as they're selling it.

I'm hoping this is just me reading this wrong, but you are coming off to me as very ungrateful and taking advantage of them by not paying at least fair market rate rent AND now are criticizing their attempts to stay solvent. Sure they likely are too spendy, but that could have been solved (or at least kicked the can down the road a ways) by selling your house or charging you actual rent...  I truly am not trying to be mean or hurtful to you/about you, but this is how it's coming across to me. :(

[better late]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Given that information, if your father passes, be prepared to either buy the house at market value or move so the house can be sold. Your mother may need the money from the house.

Yeah, the only other option is for my mother to move in with us and that won't go well at all.

What am I missing?
Couldn’t she move into the house you are living in rent free and either allow you to live with her or she could ask you to leave...?

[Sugaree]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Um... I honestly wouldn't say another word to them including that you mom is on her own if your dad dies. I think you have a blindspot towards your position vs their position. You are not standing on a firm foundation of being 100% self-supporting yourself.

Your living in a house heavily subsidized by their generosity. Getting a house for prop taxes/maintenance - so rent/mortgage free - seems kind of tone deaf to be overly critical of their money choices. And to say you're not going to help them when they are obviously helping you? I really think it's kind of bad to do this. They've avoided selling that house you're living in for reasons only they know, and your 65 year old dad refinanced their own house instead of just telling you to either buy the one you are living in or get ready to move as they're selling it.

I'm hoping this is just me reading this wrong, but you are coming off to me as very ungrateful and taking advantage of them by not paying at least fair market rate rent AND now are criticizing their attempts to stay solvent. Sure they likely are too spendy, but that could have been solved (or at least kicked the can down the road a ways) by selling your house or charging you actual rent...  I truly am not trying to be mean or hurtful to you/about you, but this is how it's coming across to me. :(

This is exactly why I don't talk about my housing situation often.  The reality of the situation is more nuanced than just "I'm being subsidized.". First off, if they *could* have rented this place out to non-family then they would have.  They tried to sell it and rent it and weren't successful at either.  To get a rental license from the city, the house needed several tens of thousands of dollars worth of work.  Rewiring the entire house more of less was the big one plus a whole list of little stuff like the rail on the front porch steps is 2" too short. They didn't have the money to bring it up to code.  I was asked to move in to keep the place from sitting empty (needed it to be occupied for the insurance or something).  Because I'm family, the city doesn't require a rental license for me to live here.  I guess it's okay for family members to live in a deathtrap or something (kidding...It's not that bad...anymore).  Living here was never my idea, and it's still not my forever plan, but  decisions have been made based on the assurances that I was given that it's mine as long as I want it.  Since that time, I've put nearly $20k into it.  I've had to replace the water heater, furnace (almost died from a gas leak that first winter), stove, dishwasher, fridge, six windows, and floors(though to be fair, the flooring and one of the windows was at least partially subsidized by insurance).  I am anticipating having to replace the HVAC compressor in the spring.  And the 1950s wiring is still an issue that's going to have to be addressed sooner rather than later.  It turns out that FMV rent would have been a hell of a lot cheaper, at least in the short term. 

[Sugaree]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Um... I honestly wouldn't say another word to them including that you mom is on her own if your dad dies. I think you have a blindspot towards your position vs their position. You are not standing on a firm foundation of being 100% self-supporting yourself.

Your living in a house heavily subsidized by their generosity. Getting a house for prop taxes/maintenance - so rent/mortgage free - seems kind of tone deaf to be overly critical of their money choices. And to say you're not going to help them when they are obviously helping you? I really think it's kind of bad to do this. They've avoided selling that house you're living in for reasons only they know, and your 65 year old dad refinanced their own house instead of just telling you to either buy the one you are living in or get ready to move as they're selling it.

I'm hoping this is just me reading this wrong, but you are coming off to me as very ungrateful and taking advantage of them by not paying at least fair market rate rent AND now are criticizing their attempts to stay solvent. Sure they likely are too spendy, but that could have been solved (or at least kicked the can down the road a ways) by selling your house or charging you actual rent...  I truly am not trying to be mean or hurtful to you/about you, but this is how it's coming across to me. :(

ETA:  Nevermind.  This is exactly why I don't talk about my housing situation often.  There's more to it than "I live here rent-free."  What I've paid keeping the place from falling apart is way more than rent would be. 

[Frankies Girl]

My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Um... I honestly wouldn't say another word to them including that you mom is on her own if your dad dies. I think you have a blindspot towards your position vs their position. You are not standing on a firm foundation of being 100% self-supporting yourself.

Your living in a house heavily subsidized by their generosity. Getting a house for prop taxes/maintenance - so rent/mortgage free - seems kind of tone deaf to be overly critical of their money choices. And to say you're not going to help them when they are obviously helping you? I really think it's kind of bad to do this. They've avoided selling that house you're living in for reasons only they know, and your 65 year old dad refinanced their own house instead of just telling you to either buy the one you are living in or get ready to move as they're selling it.

I'm hoping this is just me reading this wrong, but you are coming off to me as very ungrateful and taking advantage of them by not paying at least fair market rate rent AND now are criticizing their attempts to stay solvent. Sure they likely are too spendy, but that could have been solved (or at least kicked the can down the road a ways) by selling your house or charging you actual rent...  I truly am not trying to be mean or hurtful to you/about you, but this is how it's coming across to me. :(

This is exactly why I don't talk about my housing situation often.  The reality of the situation is more nuanced than just "I'm being subsidized.". First off, if they *could* have rented this place out to non-family then they would have.  They tried to sell it and rent it and weren't successful at either.  To get a rental license from the city, the house needed several tens of thousands of dollars worth of work.  Rewiring the entire house more of less was the big one plus a whole list of little stuff like the rail on the front porch steps is 2" too short. They didn't have the money to bring it up to code.  I was asked to move in to keep the place from sitting empty (needed it to be occupied for the insurance or something).  Because I'm family, the city doesn't require a rental license for me to live here.  I guess it's okay for family members to live in a deathtrap or something (kidding...It's not that bad...anymore).  Living here was never my idea, and it's still not my forever plan, but  decisions have been made based on the assurances that I was given that it's mine as long as I want it.  Since that time, I've put nearly $20k into it.  I've had to replace the water heater, furnace (almost died from a gas leak that first winter), stove, dishwasher, fridge, six windows, and floors(though to be fair, the flooring and one of the windows was at least partially subsidized by insurance).  I am anticipating having to replace the HVAC compressor in the spring.  And the 1950s wiring is still an issue that's going to have to be addressed sooner rather than later.  It turns out that FMV rent would have been a hell of a lot cheaper, at least in the short term.

As I said the bare facts you stated sounded like they were giving you a house for bare minimum $, but with the additional info, in fact you're helping them out more than they're helping you. SO definitely more gray than black and white. That's why I said I may be reading it wrong, and I do hope you get that based only on the initial post, it did cast you in a bad light considering. Definitely not being ungrateful (and apologies for jumping to that).

I am pretty sure they could sell the house even if they wouldn't get anything like market rate similar to updated homes in the same neighborhood. Pricing a house correctly ALWAYS fixes the problem. So saying that they couldn't get buyers really means they didn't want to price it low enough to sell. And you can get insurance on empty properties, but you have to track down insurers that will work with you... otherwise all the houses being sold/build/renovated would be in trouble! We got basic structure (no furnishings/property) coverage during the year + my dad's hoarder house was being worked on/sat vacant.

I'd consider telling your parents to sell the house you're living in and get out of there as soon as you can. Definitely stop pouring your money into fixing it up (get out before the HVAC goes!) Go find a nice, better maintained living space you actually like. Sounds like a terrible property and you shouldn't stay there if you don't like it anyway!

[Sugaree]

Yeah, that's why I don't talk about it a lot.  There's always a lot of assumptions made.  I know I'm not the first person to move into a place and fix it up in exchange for a sweetheart deal on rent.  And on paper, it looks awesome.  I'm probably also not the first person to find out that kind of deal is too good to be true.

I've always suspected that they priced it too high because my mom didn't really want it to sell.  I know that my grandfather requested, on his deathbed, that it stay in the family and I think she always felt guilty about even thinking about selling.  It was the house mom grew up in and the house I spent a ton of time in as a kid.  There's plenty of sentimental attachment to go around.  It's next door to both my parents and my in-laws (which can be both a good and bad thing).  All of that is what keeps us rooted here for at least the time being. 

[AlanStache]

This shows the limitations of written communication and why I dont always like bothering.  Adding the nuance or details would make the original post a wall of text but not adding it can make the OP come off in a bad light.  I dont have a solution*, its just one of many things that have bugged me about writing and written communication.

solution*: maybe put the nuance within a "Spoiler" field so it looks smaller but interested parties can see more information?  Or maybe tool tips?

I've always suspected that they priced it too high because my mom didn't really want it to sell.

Spoiler: show

 I know that my grandfather requested, on his deathbed, that it stay in the family and I think she always felt guilty about even thinking about selling.

  It was the house mom grew up in and the house I spent a ton of time in as a kid.  There's plenty of sentimental attachment to go around. 

Spoiler: show

It's next door to both my parents and my in-laws (which can be both a good and bad thing).

  All of that is what keeps us rooted here for at least the time being.

[runbikerun]

There are laws against age discrimination in lending. Most banks don't expect, and most buyers don't either, to be in the same house for 30 years to pay a mortgage off in this manner.  People are much more mobile than years ago and don't necessarily view their homes as forever homes.  I intend to buy my next house when I'm 60 and whether or not I get a loan will be based on my credit history, salary, down payment, and debt to income ratio.  It won't be based on if the bank thinks I'll live to 90 to pay it off.

I can't speak on the law in the States, but in Europe age absolutely can and should be taken into account as a factor for mortgage applications. I worked for a few years in mortgage lending, and applications which involved a repayment schedule going beyond age 75 for a borrower were outright banned - I never saw one, and never heard of one ever being done. Even getting approval for a mortgage that went beyond seventy was a serious challenge and required a very thorough explanation.

It's illegal to discriminate, but legitimate exceptions do exist, and I'd argue that taking age into account for mortgage lending is definitely a legitimate exception.

[Imma]

In my European country it's possible to have a mortgage until a very high age, but you would have to prove your pension is sufficient. The income from drawing down investments would probably not qualify as a pension because you'd be dependent on the market.

[Gail2000]

Funny, my brother just left from a visit. He was happy to eat my food and watch my tv and revealed he has no debt but only 2k in savings at 38. I am terrified for him but learning I can’t help him. Feeling a bit sad actually.

[PrairieBeardstache]

Funny, my brother just left from a visit. He was happy to eat my food and watch my tv and revealed he has no debt but only 2k in savings at 38. I am terrified for him but learning I can’t help him. Feeling a bit sad actually.

If it's any consolation, he's actually in a better position than many others. He has no hole to dig out of.

[charis]

Funny, my brother just left from a visit. He was happy to eat my food and watch my tv and revealed he has no debt but only 2k in savings at 38. I am terrified for him but learning I can’t help him. Feeling a bit sad actually.

If it's any consolation, he's actually in a better position than many others. He has no hole to dig out of.

Do you know whether he has any retirement/brokerage accounts?  Most people don't count retirement accounts when they think about "savings."  But he is better off than many.  I also have a brother in mid 30s - chunk of private student loan debt, extended car note, can barely pay rent, and needs parental financial support.  Yet constantly complaining about how tough it is, financially, for "millenials" (we are two years apart in age).  You'd think he'd consider getting a smaller apt (going from 2-br apartment to 1-br), creating a budget, and stop eating out all the time, but that's not the problem, of course. Yes, I can sympathize that wages have been stagnant and well-paying employment can be hard to find (for people actually looking), but that has nothing to do with one's ability to budget.

[zolotiyeruki]

It's illegal to discriminate, but legitimate exceptions do exist, and I'd argue that taking age into account for mortgage lending is definitely a legitimate exception.

I guess I don't understand why a lender would care about the age of the borrower, outside of the borrower's ability to make the monthly payments.  If the borrower dies, the lien on the house is still there, so the lender gets their due either way unless the house is under water.  Is there some other risk I'm missing?

[DadJokes]

It's illegal to discriminate, but legitimate exceptions do exist, and I'd argue that taking age into account for mortgage lending is definitely a legitimate exception.

I guess I don't understand why a lender would care about the age of the borrower, outside of the borrower's ability to make the monthly payments.  If the borrower dies, the lien on the house is still there, so the lender gets their due either way unless the house is under water.  Is there some other risk I'm missing?

There is probably some concern about the house being underwater. The more recently the loan was taken out, the less likely it is that the bank can recoup the full cost when all the fees are included. If someone is old enough that death within the next five years is a real possibility, I can understand the reluctance to issue a mortgage. I have no idea if that's legal or not though.

[runbikerun]

It's illegal to discriminate, but legitimate exceptions do exist, and I'd argue that taking age into account for mortgage lending is definitely a legitimate exception.

I guess I don't understand why a lender would care about the age of the borrower, outside of the borrower's ability to make the monthly payments.  If the borrower dies, the lien on the house is still there, so the lender gets their due either way unless the house is under water.  Is there some other risk I'm missing?

The borrower's ability to meet repayments is, in 99.99% of mortgage applications, dependent on their salary income. Extending the mortgage term beyond retirement age leaves the mortgage reliant on an income stream that no longer exists.

[Dragonswan]

Well a couple of things.  In most cases in the US a person of a certain age isn't purchasing their first home so would be able to put down at least 20% which will cover fees if the person dies moments after the property is bought.  Lenders can require a certain down payment to get a loan.  In their mind they can rationalize that it's because of their age but they better have  a different reason on paper to avoid legal issues.

The income verification is real and would be the number one reason a mortgage is denied for older folks.  However, new regulations have come in the last few years that have formula for taking into account investments (retirement accounts included) into the calculation of being able to afford the mortgage.  They can also take into account pensions and social security payments as well.  However it is easier to prove sufficient income while still working.

Lastly, in Europe, are elderly people only given the choice to live in an apartment or their children (if they have any) if they don't have enough money to pay cash for a property because giving them a loan at their age is too risky?  Is there no such thing as mortgage insurance that can be added to the mortgage?  Can they require a larger down payment to cover any fees to sell the property after the buyer's death (like I mention above)? I understand being risk adverse, but this makes the elderly second class citizens with less rights than the young.

[partgypsy]

My mother who sold her old house and is now renting, is 75 and would not be able to get a mortgage based on her income. She would have to buy the house outright. We were considering her buying a cheap house that she could afford the payments with my sister chipping in (who due to irratic income also doesn't qualify) but that didn't seem to be an option (she could only buy a house with cash).

[Goldielocks]

Thank you.  That would explain why the one near me is open a lot and busy.

Another reason they are used is that many businesses sell product by the truck loaded weight (produce, wood, etc) and use the official scale tickets on their invoices to be paid...   most businesses can't afford to have their own truck scale and keep it calibrated.

[runbikerun]

In the majority of cases, I'd have been dealing with people with a 20% deposit or more.

Repayment capacity on a monthly basis is treated separately to the deposit, though - the deposit protects the customer and the bank against negative equity in the event of price falls, while checking for repayment capacity protects the customer and the bank by ensuring that the customer is unlikely to have difficulties making repayments at any point in the life of the mortgage based on what is known at the time of the application.

There may be specific cases where scope might exist to work off pension income, but I've never seen one, or heard of one being done. My suspicion is that there's a huge risk of the regulatory authority taking a dim view and ordering the bank to write off the mortgage.

As far as what happens to older people: unfortunately, banks don't have much by way of options on that front. They're required to show that customers can afford repayments, and if they can't establish that then there's very little that can be done.