Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3464251 times)

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5350 on: June 22, 2019, 07:42:00 AM »
I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.

flipboard

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5351 on: June 22, 2019, 08:44:52 AM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

Tass

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5352 on: June 22, 2019, 09:38:11 AM »
Well, or shifting the costs to the people who actually buy those things. Obviously we all rely on shipping, but not all to the same extent.

Not even arguing for it, but I think the effects would be more complex than "moving your own costs around."

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5353 on: June 22, 2019, 10:33:11 AM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.
More likely is that economics would kick in and some shipping would be shifted to less expensive method. Maybe we would use more rail and accept thugs arriving in five days instead of two. In any case a new equilibrium would be found.

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5354 on: June 22, 2019, 12:30:57 PM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.

And it pushes the trucking industry toward buying cleaner, more efficient new trucks - take the inefficient old smokers to the scrapyard.

Plus, I don't buy that much stuff.

Win-win.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5355 on: June 22, 2019, 12:56:25 PM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.
Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.

flipboard

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5356 on: June 22, 2019, 10:28:51 PM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.
Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.
It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5357 on: June 23, 2019, 05:01:17 AM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.
Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.
It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.

flipboard

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5358 on: June 23, 2019, 10:08:47 AM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.
Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.
It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.
Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

Where I live, only the main road is regularly used by trucks. 2 lorries use it per day (not even 9t), to supply the local supermarket (after the main road, they get onto the motorway - which is funded by federal money as opposed to local money). Local roads other than the main road aren't used by trucks, except for construction... and deliveries directly to people living there. Effectively, truck traffic on locally funded roads is mostly non-existent.

Now I lied when I said 2 trucks - 2 trucks from far away use the road. Waste disposal lorries use each road once a week, but they're completely local, funded by local taxes - so you'd shift one local tax into a different local tax. Oh, and the local buses. Public transport is _definitely_ something that should be subsidised by road taxes.

Uturn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5359 on: June 24, 2019, 06:14:04 AM »
.. and accept thugs arriving in five days instead of two.

Nope.  When I call for a thug, I need them rather quickly. 

former player

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5360 on: June 24, 2019, 08:16:25 AM »
.. and accept thugs arriving in five days instead of two.

Nope.  When I call for a thug, I need them rather quickly.

From now on I shall think of you as living the life I read about in thrillers.

Slow&Steady

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5361 on: June 24, 2019, 08:49:09 AM »
My SO was telling me the other day that while talking to a sibling it was discussed that SO would probably be retiring around 45.  This is the recap I got from SO.

SO: Yeah so if all of our planning goes correctly, I should be retiring around 45.
Sib: That would be great, how are you going to do that?
SO: While Slow will probably still be working for insurance and such but we are prioritizing retirement savings over other material things.
Sib: What do you mean?
SO:  Slow puts a lot in to 401k options, we also use IRAs and we are looking at opening a individual 401k for my business so we can shovel more money in to tax sheltered accounts.
Sib: Oh how much do you put in to 401k?  We don't trust the stock market so we don't put money in there.  Plus we cashed out the 401K that Sib-in-law had previously so that we could move.
SO: Oh, we put a decent % into those retirement accounts and don't have trust issues with the stock market. Are the kids enjoying summer? ...

ambimammular

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5362 on: June 24, 2019, 01:35:35 PM »
My SO was telling me the other day that while talking to a sibling it was discussed that SO would probably be retiring around 45.  This is the recap I got from SO.

SO: Yeah so if all of our planning goes correctly, I should be retiring around 45.
Sib: That would be great, how are you going to do that?
SO: While Slow will probably still be working for insurance and such but we are prioritizing retirement savings over other material things.
Sib: What do you mean?
SO:  Slow puts a lot in to 401k options, we also use IRAs and we are looking at opening a individual 401k for my business so we can shovel more money in to tax sheltered accounts.
Sib: Oh how much do you put in to 401k?  We don't trust the stock market so we don't put money in there.  Plus we cashed out the 401K that Sib-in-law had previously so that we could move.
SO: Oh, we put a decent % into those retirement accounts and don't have trust issues with the stock market. Are the kids enjoying summer? ...

'It's going to be a long hard climb without the stock market escalator.

A Fella from Stella

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5363 on: June 25, 2019, 08:45:37 AM »
For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

2Cent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5364 on: June 25, 2019, 08:54:40 AM »
For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.
Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn

Philociraptor

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5365 on: June 25, 2019, 11:40:32 AM »
Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn


Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5366 on: June 25, 2019, 11:46:35 AM »
Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn


Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

Philociraptor

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5367 on: June 25, 2019, 12:33:59 PM »
Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn


Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

When we first moved in we had roommates, but over time they all moved out and we never backfilled. Now it's just the wife and I with no plans for kids. The 3 empty bedrooms stay shut for weeks at a time, I closed off the AC vents to them. Hopefully that'll keep dust from accumulating. The smaller homes that are closer to fitting what we want run double what we paid for this one >_>

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5368 on: June 25, 2019, 12:59:35 PM »
Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn


Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

When we first moved in we had roommates, but over time they all moved out and we never backfilled. Now it's just the wife and I with no plans for kids. The 3 empty bedrooms stay shut for weeks at a time, I closed off the AC vents to them. Hopefully that'll keep dust from accumulating. The smaller homes that are closer to fitting what we want run double what we paid for this one >_>

... That's just absolutely ridiculous. If it was just me and my husband, I'd definitely be looking for a way smaller space, just for maintenance. Ridiculous.

With kids, you DO ... well, I don't wanna say 'need', but you definitely appreciate extra space. Not 4K square feet of space (wtf), but even with 2300sqft we're gonna have shared bedrooms going on, so.

Nicholas Carter

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5369 on: June 25, 2019, 05:39:08 PM »
According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/
In the part of the states that I live in, there are three observations. The first is that the ratio need not be in number of vehicles, but in miles per vehicle. An American might only drive for a couple hours a day, factoring in errands and averaging in a three four hour trip once a month. While a lorrie drives for nine to twelve hours without stopping: each truck is worth six to twenty four regular cars in time on the road.
Secondly, trucks drive in many places people do not: the company I work for receives a flatbed worth of materials from New Jersey every two weeks. A person who had to travel one third the width of the country every other week would probably fly. If you drive in between the big cities of the Midwest, perhaps one car in fifty is a lorrie of some kind.
Thirdly, to avoid congestion, trucks drive at many times people do not. If you are up and driving between four and six in the morning, perhaps one car in thirty is a lorrie.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5370 on: June 25, 2019, 06:18:40 PM »
According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/
In the part of the states that I live in, there are three observations. The first is that the ratio need not be in number of vehicles, but in miles per vehicle. An American might only drive for a couple hours a day, factoring in errands and averaging in a three four hour trip once a month. While a lorrie drives for nine to twelve hours without stopping: each truck is worth six to twenty four regular cars in time on the road.
Secondly, trucks drive in many places people do not: the company I work for receives a flatbed worth of materials from New Jersey every two weeks. A person who had to travel one third the width of the country every other week would probably fly. If you drive in between the big cities of the Midwest, perhaps one car in fifty is a lorrie of some kind.
Thirdly, to avoid congestion, trucks drive at many times people do not. If you are up and driving between four and six in the morning, perhaps one car in thirty is a lorrie.

I've driven major highways at times when at least half the vehicles were tractor trailers.  Late at night most people are not driving long distances, but the truckers are out in force.

In the past I've also seen highways in Quebec where the right hand land literally had depressions from the weight of the trucks.  You could see it clearly when the light was right, and they wee clearly from trucks, not cars becasue of the size.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5371 on: June 26, 2019, 08:44:06 AM »
Maybe there is a bargain waiting for you:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-growing-problem-in-real-estate-too-many-too-big-houses-11553181782?mod=rsswn


Hell, the wife and I bought a 2,200 square foot "starter home" in 2012 (4/2 with formal dining, den, and sun room), but would like to find something around half that (2/2 with large kitchen and living room, no formal dining or den) with a large covered outdoor area and no yard. Turns out these homes don't exist, at least not in the area of DFW we are looking.

Yeah, that's the size of home my husband and I bought as a 'this is where we want to raise 3-4 kids' kind of house (no formal dining space, no formal living room, but big open kitchen and table that easily fits 10 and can stretch to fit 20, because we do a LOT of cooking and entertaining). I can't imagine that amount of space with 1 kid or no kids - like, you want me to maintain HOW MUCH space???

When we first moved in we had roommates, but over time they all moved out and we never backfilled. Now it's just the wife and I with no plans for kids. The 3 empty bedrooms stay shut for weeks at a time, I closed off the AC vents to them. Hopefully that'll keep dust from accumulating. The smaller homes that are closer to fitting what we want run double what we paid for this one >_>

... That's just absolutely ridiculous. If it was just me and my husband, I'd definitely be looking for a way smaller space, just for maintenance. Ridiculous.

With kids, you DO ... well, I don't wanna say 'need', but you definitely appreciate extra space. Not 4K square feet of space (wtf), but even with 2300sqft we're gonna have shared bedrooms going on, so.

I am in a similar situation with one of three bedrooms 'permanently' closed up.  House is 1400sq and much of it is never used but there are few homes that are that much smaller and the transaction cost to move would probably not be worth it.  And who knows maybe one day I will want a yoga room or vr flight simulator room :-)

Gangly1

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5372 on: June 26, 2019, 10:35:32 AM »
Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/

You are way underestimating the amount of truck traffic (at least for the US, but I'd assume the UK also).  In 2015, commercial trucks accounted for about 9% of all vehicle miles traveled.  So that is about 1:11 trucks:cars.  https://www.bts.gov/bts-publications/freight-facts-and-figures/freight-facts-figures-2017-chapter-3-freight

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5373 on: June 26, 2019, 11:53:06 AM »
For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

Yeah, our friends tend to think that we're poor. Husband and I live in a small fixer-upper that we've been slowly fixing up over the last 15 years. We've replaced the roof, gutted and rebuilt the kitchen and bathroom, bought new appliances, a new furnace, and water heater, and installed vinyl siding, new flooring and paint in all rooms, and a new garage door.

We do one project at a time so that we don't take on large amounts of debt. Currently, our only debt other than our $54K mortgage balance is $2300 on a 0% interest credit card to cover the unexpectedly large roof cost this spring (our home improvement cash savings for this covered all but $3000). I spent a lot of time yesterday in a Discount Tire waiting room waiting for a tire patch and listened to several discussions about financing because others couldn't afford $500 for new tires. I could have covered cost that in cash yesterday if needed, and have done so in the past.

We live differently from other people. I'm okay with that.

theskyisblue

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5374 on: July 23, 2019, 03:15:29 PM »
Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

Maybe what he was trying to say is this:  "You're my girl and I want to protect you and knowing that you are riding around on a bike in traffic scares the sh*t out of me.  Please, please, please rent a big SUV so that I know you're safe and I don't have to worry about you even on a work trip when someone else is paying for the damn car!  Gheesh!" 

But because he can't say that he had to make up a crazy financial argument b/c he thinks it will be more effective since you care about financial things.

A Fella from Stella

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5375 on: July 23, 2019, 03:24:47 PM »
For 5 years I've had a house that needs many updates. We are slowly working on it. For example, last week my wife and daughters finished the deck with me. Later this year we'll take out a 0% Lowe's loan to get some other work done.

FAMILY: They think we must be poor; that we are struggling. It's the opposite. For example, after an auto accident last year I paid $9k cash to replace my car while negotiating with the insurance co to get their lowball offers up. After 3 weeks they came up to an acceptable amount, but you only get the rental car for 10 days, so they know most people are in a bind. I was not.

I'd like a nice house, but not at the expense of everything else.

Yeah, our friends tend to think that we're poor. Husband and I live in a small fixer-upper that we've been slowly fixing up over the last 15 years. We've replaced the roof, gutted and rebuilt the kitchen and bathroom, bought new appliances, a new furnace, and water heater, and installed vinyl siding, new flooring and paint in all rooms, and a new garage door.

We do one project at a time so that we don't take on large amounts of debt. Currently, our only debt other than our $54K mortgage balance is $2300 on a 0% interest credit card to cover the unexpectedly large roof cost this spring (our home improvement cash savings for this covered all but $3000). I spent a lot of time yesterday in a Discount Tire waiting room waiting for a tire patch and listened to several discussions about financing because others couldn't afford $500 for new tires. I could have covered cost that in cash yesterday if needed, and have done so in the past.

We live differently from other people. I'm okay with that.

@OtherJen, that's fantastic.

With such low debt, you must feel at ease with your finances. I certainly hope so.

We have much more debt than that, but we were pre-mustache for a very long time.

A Fella from Stella

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5376 on: July 23, 2019, 03:29:06 PM »
Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

Maybe what he was trying to say is this:  "You're my girl and I want to protect you and knowing that you are riding around on a bike in traffic scares the sh*t out of me.  Please, please, please rent a big SUV so that I know you're safe and I don't have to worry about you even on a work trip when someone else is paying for the damn car!  Gheesh!" 

But because he can't say that he had to make up a crazy financial argument b/c he thinks it will be more effective since you care about financial things.

That's very kind of you. I'll add that maybe he's just disagreeable; like the kind of guy who thinks it's smart-sounding to disagree, just like someone who can't think, so they say they can "see both sides" when one side is so obviously wrong, therefore, in seeing both sides, choosing one would be easy.

Who calls not paying outrageous rental car tax rates "freeloading"? And even if you are, isn't that a good thing - to find a loophole? Wouldn't it be worse, then, to drive your own car and wear out the road when you didn't pay the taxes? How about if you bring your own food so you don't have to stop along the way?

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5377 on: July 24, 2019, 12:15:56 PM »
But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

GreenToTheCore

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5378 on: July 27, 2019, 12:17:52 AM »
Thanks all for the great responses. I was really feeling that the world had shifted on its axis a bit.

Kudos @happypigday for trying to figure out a positive spin on it. Reminds me that I should send my parents a safety study I just read. 

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5379 on: July 27, 2019, 12:44:56 AM »
But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

I used to have a boss who would in all seriousness argue that him driving to work in his big Mercedes was better for the environment than me cycling, because it would be years before the pollution from the production of the steel my bike was made from was compensated and it would take even longer because I need to eat extra food due to all my cycling. Of course his Merc wasn't made from metal and doesn't need fuel :/

Guy even used the "trust me I'm an engineer" argument.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5380 on: July 27, 2019, 06:26:34 AM »
Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.
Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/


That chart caps out at some pretty lightweight lorries. In the USA, the common 18-wheeler starts out at ~18 tons EMPTY, with a legal limit of 40 tons full.

Note that approximate doubling of weight from the Hummer to the 9 ton lorry makes the damage go up 20x. That would put an empty 18-wheeler at around 8,200x damage of a car and a full one at 164,000x

Between that and 9% of vehicle miles traveled, I did lowball things above - it's more like >99% of road damage in the USA is from trucks. State road planners in Texas completely ignore cars for road damage calculations (not for congestion, just damage).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 06:34:07 AM by TomTX »

2Cent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5381 on: July 29, 2019, 02:47:31 AM »
Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.
Not that I don't believe you - but do you have any citations, since I'm having trouble finding data backing up your 90% claim.

According to this page, lorries cause 400x the damage that a car does. So if your numbers are right, the car:truck ratio is 1:44. Even when I visit america, the ratio of trucsk to cars is nowhere near 1:44 (more like 1:5000).
https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/


That chart caps out at some pretty lightweight lorries. In the USA, the common 18-wheeler starts out at ~18 tons EMPTY, with a legal limit of 40 tons full.

Note that approximate doubling of weight from the Hummer to the 9 ton lorry makes the damage go up 20x. That would put an empty 18-wheeler at around 8,200x damage of a car and a full one at 164,000x

Between that and 9% of vehicle miles traveled, I did lowball things above - it's more like >99% of road damage in the USA is from trucks. State road planners in Texas completely ignore cars for road damage calculations (not for congestion, just damage).
You have to divide by the amount of wheels as the damage = nr of wheels * weitght/wheels. So two 4 wheelers of 1 ton are the same as 1 2 ton 8 wheeler. Also larger wheels would be less damaging. It's still a huge difference though.

Dragonswan

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5382 on: July 29, 2019, 11:49:39 AM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.
Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.
It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.
Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5383 on: July 29, 2019, 06:50:48 PM »
But think about all the CO2 you are exhaling! You should be ashamed...  /s

I used to have a boss who would in all seriousness argue that him driving to work in his big Mercedes was better for the environment than me cycling, because it would be years before the pollution from the production of the steel my bike was made from was compensated and it would take even longer because I need to eat extra food due to all my cycling. Of course his Merc wasn't made from metal and doesn't need fuel :/

Guy even used the "trust me I'm an engineer" argument.

Some people are so over the top ridiculous and can't even see it. Did you manage a straight face?

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5384 on: July 30, 2019, 07:26:30 AM »
Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

Are weigh stations even used? I don't know if I've ever seen one that was open.

Dragonswan

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5385 on: July 30, 2019, 10:50:19 AM »
They are in my neck of the woods.  Though I'll admit it's 50/50 if the station is open.

Fi(re) on the Farm

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5386 on: July 30, 2019, 05:55:59 PM »
Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

Are weigh stations even used? I don't know if I've ever seen one that was open.

My brother is a long haul trucker and probably breaks the law all the time. No trucker worth his shit goes through a weigh station. They all get off the highway the exit before and get off the exit after. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just stating a fact.

Dragonswan

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5387 on: July 31, 2019, 11:05:44 AM »
Really!?  Because when the thing is open, there's always a steady line of trucks pushing their way back onto the highway.  Is there any sort of paperwork the weigh station gives the driver  (or electronically put in a system by license plate) so if they get stopped by cops they can prove they went through?  I mean there has to be some kind of deterrent to flaunting the law.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5388 on: July 31, 2019, 11:59:00 AM »
I can think of one weigh station in my larger metropolitan area and Iíve never seen it open

EricEng

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5389 on: July 31, 2019, 12:05:26 PM »
Really!?  Because when the thing is open, there's always a steady line of trucks pushing their way back onto the highway.  Is there any sort of paperwork the weigh station gives the driver  (or electronically put in a system by license plate) so if they get stopped by cops they can prove they went through?  I mean there has to be some kind of deterrent to flaunting the law.
Yes there is.  Coworker used to be a cop who sole responsibility was to enforce weigh stations.

Active weigh stations tend to be on main freeway artery for long haul.  Too easy to bypass near major cities.

Dragonswan

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5390 on: July 31, 2019, 03:18:31 PM »
Thank you.  That would explain why the one near me is open a lot and busy.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5391 on: August 05, 2019, 07:59:33 AM »
My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent. 

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5392 on: August 05, 2019, 08:26:53 AM »
It's ridiculous, because an 18-wheeler does literally thousands of times the damage to the road. Road damage is affected by weight to the 4th power.

Cars are basically irrelevant. Bikes are far below that.

Based on upkeep costs, diesel tax should be >$10/gallon, and the annual registration fee should be more like $5k.
Those "18-wheeler"s are carrying all the things you buy in shops, the materials to build your house... and even materials to build roads with. All you'd be doing is shifting your own costs around.
Yes, it'd be shifting costs around, but it would shift those costs to those products/activities that create those costs in the first place.
It would actually be worse. The additional admin of billing out-of-state transports traversing your state would increase total cost significantly.

And people living in a specific location are still those using the roads most frequently. And deriving the most gain from the their existence. Would be different if road track were 90% truck.

Road damage from vehicles is >90% caused by trucks.
Also, trucks are charged for the road damage they do.  That's what weigh stations are for.  Once the truck is weighed the state collects taxes based on the weight of the goods being transported.  As consumers, this tax is already built into our prices.  The registration fees, gas taxes (and in some states personal property tax) are how the states get us to pay for our tiny share of the damage.  I'm still miffed that I have an extra registration fee for my electric car.

Perhaps where you live. In the USA, trucks do grossly disproportionate damage compared to the amount they pay.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5393 on: August 05, 2019, 08:29:25 AM »
My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5394 on: August 05, 2019, 09:16:58 AM »
My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.


Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5395 on: August 05, 2019, 09:26:57 AM »
My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.


Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Given that information, if your father passes, be prepared to either buy the house at market value or move so the house can be sold. Your mother may need the money from the house.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5396 on: August 05, 2019, 09:33:25 AM »
My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.


Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Given that information, if your father passes, be prepared to either buy the house at market value or move so the house can be sold. Your mother may need the money from the house.

Yeah, the only other option is for my mother to move in with us and that won't go well at all.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5397 on: August 05, 2019, 09:37:15 AM »
My dad told me this weekend that he and mom have refinanced their house.  Again.  I've lost track of how many times they've done this.  At least 4 or 5 since I've been old enough to understand what they're doing.  He says he's going to pay off the mortgage, a HELOC, and "some other bills" (i.e. they've run the credit cards up again and this should also take care of a loan they took out to cover some disasterous dealings with the SBA/FEMA).  Apparently it's a 30 year note that he plans on paying off when hell freezes over in six years. 

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

Sounds like a serious talk with your mom is in order.  As in, "Mom, if you don't have enough life insurance on Dad to pay off this house, I won't bail you out.   That means you write the damn check so he doesn't decide he doesn't need it and cancel it without telling you.  And while you're at it, take a closer look at your finances so you don't have to be like SwordGuy's mom, who didn't have an f'ing clue what the state of her finances was when her husband died.  She didn't know what they owed, who they owed it to, or how much money they had coming in."

Sometimes bluntness is what's needed.


Unfortunately, the last time I tried to have this talk with her, the response was basically "stay in your own lane." 

It's complicated a bit by the fact that the house I live in is the one she inherited from her parents.  I've been given the option to buy it, but have thus far chosen to keep "renting" for various reasons (what that means is that I pay the property tax and insurance plus handle any maintenance issues that arise).  As far as I know, the house I live in has not been put up as collateral for anything.

Ugh.

I would try to have this conversation again. And when she says, "Stay in your own lane," then respond, "Okay, that's fine. But to be clear, if this is what you want, then 'my lane' doesn't include bailing you out in the future if you screw this up. Agreed?"

Dragonswan

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5398 on: August 05, 2019, 02:02:46 PM »

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.
[/quote]

There are laws against age discrimination in lending. Most banks don't expect, and most buyers don't either, to be in the same house for 30 years to pay a mortgage off in this manner.  People are much more mobile than years ago and don't necessarily view their homes as forever homes.  I intend to buy my next house when I'm 60 and whether or not I get a loan will be based on my credit history, salary, down payment, and debt to income ratio.  It won't be based on if the bank thinks I'll live to 90 to pay it off.

About your specific situation, would your father agree to let you take out a life insurance policy on him?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5399 on: August 05, 2019, 02:17:05 PM »

First of all, who the hell approves a 65 year-old man a 30 year mortgage?  My concern right now is that the life insurance policy he took out 28 years ago when they built the house will end and then he'll die, leaving mom (who has never bothered to learn jack about the finances) to deal with the fallout.  The only, and I mean only, saving grace of all of this is that the interest rate is only 4 point something percent.

There are laws against age discrimination in lending. Most banks don't expect, and most buyers don't either, to be in the same house for 30 years to pay a mortgage off in this manner.  People are much more mobile than years ago and don't necessarily view their homes as forever homes.  I intend to buy my next house when I'm 60 and whether or not I get a loan will be based on my credit history, salary, down payment, and debt to income ratio.  It won't be based on if the bank thinks I'll live to 90 to pay it off.

About your specific situation, would your father agree to let you take out a life insurance policy on him?
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That's interesting because my father in law was turned down a few weeks ago for a car loan and age was mentioned as a reason.  Though his credit probably sucks because he pays cash for everything.