Relatives who just don't get it

[markbike528CBX]

And cryogenic frozen butterflies.

Dammit, you made me look this up.   Not frozen, but the butterflies are a thing.  Now I can't unthink that thought.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/reasons-to-think-twice-about-releasing-butterflies-at-your-wedding_288800.html

I don't remember them on the list in the chapel in Vegas.

[Inaya]

And cryogenic frozen butterflies.

Dammit, you made me look this up.   Not frozen, but the butterflies are a thing.  Now I can't unthink that thought.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/reasons-to-think-twice-about-releasing-butterflies-at-your-wedding_288800.html

I don't remember them on the list in the chapel in Vegas.

Nothing says a future of wedded bliss like a box of dead bugs.

[PrairieBeardstache]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

[2Cent]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

[Kitsune]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I know one guy who threw a party when he paid off his wedding the same week as he signed his divorce papers.

... 2 months before his second wedding.

[SwordGuy]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

In my mom's final years she had a lady come in and clean for her.   The lady got divorced from her husband.   But neither of them could afford to live alone so they continued to live together.

Damn, but if that isn't a motivation for getting your finances in order, I don't know what is.

[Playing with Fire UK]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I know one guy who threw a party when he paid off his wedding the same week as he signed his divorce papers.

... 2 months before his second wedding.

Wow: chin, meet floor. Any chance the second wedding was a more modest affair? Or did the new partner demand everything and more from the first one?

[Kitsune]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I know one guy who threw a party when he paid off his wedding the same week as he signed his divorce papers.

... 2 months before his second wedding.

Wow: chin, meet floor. Any chance the second wedding was a more modest affair? Or did the new partner demand everything and more from the first one?

The second wedding was... not what I would consider modest, but honestly was probably more reasonable. And they're still happily together 10 years later, so it wasn't a horrible idea overall.

[cassafrass]

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens,

My husband and I did a semi-elopement. We told our parents and siblings we were planning on getting married on X day about a month in the future and they were invited if they were willing/able to come. We hired an officiant, walked out into some pretty nature and said our vows while our family stood around us. Then my FIL treated us all to a fancy dinner. It was a great day and I'm so glad we did it that way.

By telling our parents what was going on, we avoided hurt feelings. But we presented our plans in a take-it-or-leave-it way, as in: this is what we're doing and we'd love you to come, but we're not budging on how this day will go down. Maybe you could try something similar @Imma

[PrairieBeardstache]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I feel bad admitting this, but I don't know if it will last so I do expect to be offering him a place to stay to recover from his crippling debt should his marriage fail. I don't know that he'll ever be able to actually live a life that he wants but should he fall I can offer him a place to land.

[Imma]

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens,

My husband and I did a semi-elopement. We told our parents and siblings we were planning on getting married on X day about a month in the future and they were invited if they were willing/able to come. We hired an officiant, walked out into some pretty nature and said our vows while our family stood around us. Then my FIL treated us all to a fancy dinner. It was a great day and I'm so glad we did it that way.

By telling our parents what was going on, we avoided hurt feelings. But we presented our plans in a take-it-or-leave-it way, as in: this is what we're doing and we'd love you to come, but we're not budging on how this day will go down. Maybe you could try something similar @Imma

Yeah I wish. That sounds like my dream wedding: nothing fancy, but all our loved ones present.

Sadly in our case the family's expectations are more like "you can't invite this person, you must invite that person, or we're not attending". Both sets of parents are divorced and both sets of siblings also have had big fights. It's totally impossible to get all our close relatives together in one room. It hasn't happened in a very long time.

[markbike528CBX]

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens,

My husband and I did a semi-elopement. We told our parents and siblings we were planning on getting married on X day about a month in the future and they were invited if they were willing/able to come. We hired an officiant, walked out into some pretty nature and said our vows while our family stood around us. Then my FIL treated us all to a fancy dinner. It was a great day and I'm so glad we did it that way.

By telling our parents what was going on, we avoided hurt feelings. But we presented our plans in a take-it-or-leave-it way, as in: this is what we're doing and we'd love you to come, but we're not budging on how this day will go down. Maybe you could try something similar @Imma

Yeah I wish. That sounds like my dream wedding: nothing fancy, but all our loved ones present.

Sadly in our case the family's expectations are more like "you can't invite this person, you must invite that person, or we're not attending". Both sets of parents are divorced and both sets of siblings also have had big fights. It's totally impossible to get all our close relatives together in one room. It hasn't happened in a very long time.

A wedding is Your time ( unless someone else is paying).  The mentioned approach is precisely what you need to do to solve the attendance problem. Make the problem not yours, and it will sort itself out.

[SwordGuy]

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens,

My husband and I did a semi-elopement. We told our parents and siblings we were planning on getting married on X day about a month in the future and they were invited if they were willing/able to come. We hired an officiant, walked out into some pretty nature and said our vows while our family stood around us. Then my FIL treated us all to a fancy dinner. It was a great day and I'm so glad we did it that way.

By telling our parents what was going on, we avoided hurt feelings. But we presented our plans in a take-it-or-leave-it way, as in: this is what we're doing and we'd love you to come, but we're not budging on how this day will go down. Maybe you could try something similar @Imma

Yeah I wish. That sounds like my dream wedding: nothing fancy, but all our loved ones present.

Sadly in our case the family's expectations are more like "you can't invite this person, you must invite that person, or we're not attending". Both sets of parents are divorced and both sets of siblings also have had big fights. It's totally impossible to get all our close relatives together in one room. It hasn't happened in a very long time.

I guess I'm just simple.  I don't put up with crap like that and I let them know it in no uncertain words.

[Maenad]

There were... issues between my MIL and her sisters when DH and I got married. We "returned the awkwardness to sender" and told them that their interpersonal issues were their own to deal with, not ours. (Politely but firmly.)

I do highly recommend it. Trying to dance around who-hates-who is exhausting, and you'll never do it right. Their fights were not caused by you, and can't be fixed by you. Please take care of yourself and release yourself from this particular responsibility.

[Imma]

We are definitely not putting up with that kind of crap - that's why we aren't married yet and will elope in the future. Sadly, we know for a fact that none of out relatives will turn up if it hasn't been discussed beforehand who is attending and who isn't. We have tried the approach of inviting everyone and letting them deal with their own issues and on previous occasions that has just lead to more crap and no attendees. I'm not going to risk organising a wedding and not having anyone turn up. I'd much rather spend that money on eloping to a nice place and have our honeymoon there.

[MishMash]

Sounds like my husbands ex wife, she married husband number 3 (prior to age 30) 5 days after the divorce was finalized.  Husband three took out a six figure second mortgage (high of the market boom) paid for a huge wedding and a boat and truck.  Market turned 6 months later and they are so underwater on the mortgage they will never move.

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I know one guy who threw a party when he paid off his wedding the same week as he signed his divorce papers.

... 2 months before his second wedding.

Wow: chin, meet floor. Any chance the second wedding was a more modest affair? Or did the new partner demand everything and more from the first one?

[KathrinS]

His son (18) wants to be an ice hockey player, so obviously he needs all of the best, professional gear.  He needs new, expensive hockey sticks (over $100) every few weeks because when he loses, he smashes them on the ground in rage.

The daughter (20) has a boyfriend who regularly orders things from her phone and accounts, but then doesn't pay for them. Her online shopping accounts have repeatedly been blocked because of this, and my uncle's family is constantly paying off the boyfriend's debt. In addition, she has an online shopping addiction, with new things being delivered every week for the last 4-5 years.

So, I'm back with family over Easter and catching up with all the family gossip. This family runs a hotel and on the ground floor, there's a large hall that can hold 400 people for events. This hasn't been used in many years, but the father's cars are stored there and it serves as an entertainment room for the kids. There's  a TV and sofa, a full wall of mirrors and a stage. The son uses it to watch hockey matches, and the daughter for occasional parties. Recently it's come to light that the costs of running this hall (utilities, maintenance etc) is around $16 000 a year. I just ... don't even really know what to say.

[Hula Hoop]

We are definitely not putting up with that kind of crap - that's why we aren't married yet and will elope in the future. Sadly, we know for a fact that none of out relatives will turn up if it hasn't been discussed beforehand who is attending and who isn't. We have tried the approach of inviting everyone and letting them deal with their own issues and on previous occasions that has just lead to more crap and no attendees. I'm not going to risk organising a wedding and not having anyone turn up. I'd much rather spend that money on eloping to a nice place and have our honeymoon there.

In that situation, eloping sounds like a perfect solution.

[Just Joe]

Had a conversation with a relative who expressed a strong desire to buy a pickup truck to go along with their SUV. They currently have two vehicles and one member of their marriage is no longer able to drive. They have zero projects, zero things to tow, nothing to carry in said pickup truck. They are late in life and really ought to just sell one of their vehicles b/c they never drive the second vehicle. Soaks up insurance and registration fees. Also complained about their limited parking. I just nodded along. I truly want to help them see their folly but I didn't know what to say.

[sapphail]

His son (18) wants to be an ice hockey player, so obviously he needs all of the best, professional gear.  He needs new, expensive hockey sticks (over $100) every few weeks because when he loses, he smashes them on the ground in rage.

The daughter (20) has a boyfriend who regularly orders things from her phone and accounts, but then doesn't pay for them. Her online shopping accounts have repeatedly been blocked because of this, and my uncle's family is constantly paying off the boyfriend's debt. In addition, she has an online shopping addiction, with new things being delivered every week for the last 4-5 years.

So, I'm back with family over Easter and catching up with all the family gossip. This family runs a hotel and on the ground floor, there's a large hall that can hold 400 people for events. This hasn't been used in many years, but the father's cars are stored there and it serves as an entertainment room for the kids. There's  a TV and sofa, a full wall of mirrors and a stage. The son uses it to watch hockey matches, and the daughter for occasional parties. Recently it's come to light that the costs of running this hall (utilities, maintenance etc) is around $16 000 a year. I just ... don't even really know what to say.

All of my what. So, so many questions here. First among them being 'Whyyyyyyyy?!'

[six-car-habit]

So, I'm back with family over Easter and catching up with all the family gossip. This family runs a hotel and on the ground floor, there's a large hall that can hold 400 people for events. This hasn't been used in many years, but the father's cars are stored there and it serves as an entertainment room for the kids. There's  a TV and sofa, a full wall of mirrors and a stage. The son uses it to watch hockey matches, and the daughter for occasional parties. Recently it's come to light that the costs of running this hall (utilities, maintenance etc) is around $16 000 a year. I just ... don't even really know what to say.

 If its rated to hold 400 guests it must be pretty sizable.   In car terms, this sounds like a place that can hold 10 + vehicles, in safe, dry, warm inside storage. Plus+ a hang out space and probably plenty of room for air hockey and pinball machines, library corner , probably has large bathrooms, etc.     Must have a garage door [?]
   Bring down a microwave + electric griddle, plug in a fridge.  You've basically got a massive studio apartment + inside storage for 10 vehicles for $1300 a month. Build up some walls or partitions .  Sounds great actually.....
   Kind of strange with a hotel just above it though, and hopefuly hockey son doesn't make it a long time domain.  But i understand the dad storing his cars in it, haha.

[KathrinS]

So, I'm back with family over Easter and catching up with all the family gossip. This family runs a hotel and on the ground floor, there's a large hall that can hold 400 people for events. This hasn't been used in many years, but the father's cars are stored there and it serves as an entertainment room for the kids. There's  a TV and sofa, a full wall of mirrors and a stage. The son uses it to watch hockey matches, and the daughter for occasional parties. Recently it's come to light that the costs of running this hall (utilities, maintenance etc) is around $16 000 a year. I just ... don't even really know what to say.

 If its rated to hold 400 guests it must be pretty sizable.   In car terms, this sounds like a place that can hold 10 + vehicles, in safe, dry, warm inside storage. Plus+ a hang out space and probably plenty of room for air hockey and pinball machines, library corner , probably has large bathrooms, etc.     Must have a garage door [?]
   Bring down a microwave + electric griddle, plug in a fridge.  You've basically got a massive studio apartment + inside storage for 10 vehicles for $1300 a month. Build up some walls or partitions .  Sounds great actually.....
   Kind of strange with a hotel just above it though, and hopefuly hockey son doesn't make it a long time domain.  But i understand the dad storing his cars in it, haha.

Well, when my grandparents managed it, the hotel used to also be a restaurant, so they used to hold the larger events in there. It also has a stage, so every year there would be theater shows and concerts. But ever since my uncle took over and changed it into just a hotel about 8 years ago, it hasn't been used. He just let his kids play in it and hold their parties. Just seems very decadent to me. Oh, and I forgot to mention that the son has a fully equipped fitness studio in there, as well. To himself, no hotel guests allowed.

It seems that it'll be under new management soon, so this all will stop. It'll probably start being used again for some of the things you suggested, or maybe rented out to a business. Would be a great space for exercise classes, for example.

[ambimammular]

I love my brother but, damn, that guy can spend. And justify it too!

They've got two little kidlets and a nice house. And my bro needed a powerhouse of a truck. (Truely needs it for the business; hauls trailers through fields on a weekly basis.) But he bought one that was too big to fit in his garage. He has to park in the driveway.

So naturally, you've got to sell the house! And get one with a shop to hold the truck and camper. Sure, there is the new shop that he literally built last year on an acre of land that has been just fine for holding the camper until this point. And you could always park at the old shop which is just as large. Or even, park the work truck and camper outdoors. But what do I know.

[BeautifulDay]

My niece is getting married.  There’s been some talk of getting married in Mexico.  But yesterday she decided to get married at a venue slightly closer to home. Not sure that this will help the wedding itself be cheaper.  But this will be cheaper for me and the time of year is better for me as well. So selfishly I was glad.

I told me brother I was glad of the change because the prior dates were a no go for my schedule. Brother proceeds to tell me how great the Mexico trip would have been with all these excursions he had planned for everyone, and anyway “Dad (our dad) will be paying for everything.” 

The fleecing of my elderly father absolutely pisses me off.

So asked my mom if dad was paying for the niece’s wedding. Mom says no, brother is remortgaging the house and business to pay for the wedding. Mom then says dad is just helping my brother with his business and not with the wedding.

So in other words, when brother defaults on the business loan dad will end up bailing him out. This is almost guaranteed to happen since brother is already relying on on dad to keep business going without the additional debt. One way or another dad pays for the wedding.

[Cassie]

BF, can you talk your parents out of this? I would hate to see your parents broke in their old age. We are in our 60’s and you cannot recover financially at this age.

[BeautifulDay]

I’ve tried. I get nowhere with them.  They break my heart.

[Just Joe]

Tell brother that if the parents go broke they will be living with him...

[BeautifulDay]

Tell brother that if the parents go broke they will be living with him...

Agreed.  I’d help my mom, but not my dad.  Mom has no control over this shit show.

And when my brother eventually goes broke, he won’t get a dime from me.

[Misstachian]

Husband's family member is about to try medical fixes to fertility challenges, which I'm super empathetic about as we faced these as well. (As has been well noted in other threads, yes we know there are other ways to have kids, no adoption and fostering are not cheap, easy, or for everyone at every moment of life.) When I first heard about their plans a few months ago, I suggested she try to save some money then, since I know they live paycheck to paycheck. She said she couldn't, and eating out many nights a week is her great joy. They live their lives very publicly on social media so it's hard to miss just how often they're eating out, etc.

Now it's getting real, though. She freaked out to me about the money when she learned insurance will cover none of it, so I gently noted that even if she wanted to keep eating out, maybe she could try to do that only once or twice a week? Or, since in the last two weeks she has posted about five Target outings for fancy clothes, shoes, and handbags, I suggested trying not to shop for anything but essentials?

No. She said she needs to eat out to be happy and she needs to shop to feel better about her life. At that point I realized I was rather rudely offering advice no one had asked for and stopped, and I guess it's self-aware to an extent that she knows why she spends, but I feel sad for her. She's so stressed, and I know how miserable she feels, but it's hard to hear "having a baby is the most important thing" while also hearing "restaurants and shopping are the most important thing" without wanting to shake her a bit.

Update:
Relative's fertility challenges continued and the cheaper fixes failed. (I was/am very empathetic, we had the same trials and we were in touch about the process frequently.)

She and her husband took out a $20,000 loan for IVF. They spent something like $19k plus had to do lots of meds and it took lots of blood, sweat, and tears to get an embryo.

At that point they realized their marriage wasn’t working and sought, and got, a divorce.

She told me that in addition to the $20k fertility loan, and their mortgage, they also have sizable credit card debt across three cards. "We’re still paying for his wedding suit!" Dividing that up was very stressful. We spent a lot of time researching how this could be done fairly, and I answered a bunch of money questions and encouraged and cheerleaded.

She began dating someone else quickly (great! Glad she’s happier). Then she shamefacedly announced to me that they’d booked a 7 night trip to Mexico at an all-inclusive resort. "I know, I know. You only live once, Misstachian!"

(She hasn’t sought financial advice since. And needless to say I haven’t offered!)

[cloudsail]

It's really hard watching these train wrecks happen especially when they're someone close to you. The huge disconnect between indiscriminate spending and financial hardship is something I've never been able to understand, yet it afflicts a tragically large percentage of the population.

[GreenToTheCore]

Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

[flipboard]

Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

I have noticed that people in some places/countries are very anti-bike indoctrinated. (Very noticeable when they then start spouting off about people without bicycle helmets after moving to other countries and seeing how people cycle there.)

(And no, car taxes don't actually cover road costs either. Never mind the externalisation of pollution and noise costs that definitely isn't covered.)

[Dan408]

Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

"If people didn't drive so many cars, the infrastructure wouldn't be so expensive."

or

"A car weighs 100x what a bike does. I'm using 100x less infrastructure."

or, if he's very conservative

"Why should I pay for a road built for someone else's car? That's socialism. Why are you promoting needlessly paying taxes? You sound like a Democrat"

[Kris]

Well, my father just threw me for a loop.

Told him how I rented a bike instead of a car for a work trip and he said I was mooching off of the city's infrastructure and preventing them from earning money from the tax on the rental car and gas.
The only thing I could think to say was "Well, then they should figure out a different revenue stream."
A "Good job, daughter. You're prioritizing your health and preventing a pot belly like mine that has caused numerous back problems," would've been nice.

What the actual flippin' ___.
What have we come to that not driving a car means we're unethical and damaging communities?

I have noticed that people in some places/countries are very anti-bike indoctrinated. (Very noticeable when they then start spouting off about people without bicycle helmets after moving to other countries and seeing how people cycle there.)

(And no, car taxes don't actually cover road costs either. Never mind the externalisation of pollution and noise costs that definitely isn't covered.)

Yep. An ex-friend of mine (we ran in the same crowd in h.s.) started the long process of becoming an ex-friend when she drove in from the suburbs in her freaking enormous SUV to pick me up for a shopping trip (that I didn’t even want to go on but I was trying to be nice and just go with what she wanted to do) and she spent a good ten minutes railing against all the people on bikes she had to share the road with. She admitted to me that she didn’t feel bikes had any place on city streets because they are “for cars” and slowed her down. There was real anger in her voice.

[Tasse]

I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

[DadJokes]

I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

[ysette9]

I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

What we really need to be doing is converting more roads to toll roads to make the clear connection between using something and paying for it.

[slugline]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there. I have a really hard time believing that there are any gas-burning car owners that are driving enough to pay $1000/year in gasoline taxes:

$1000 divided by 37 cents/gallon (IL gas tax) times 39 miles/gallon (CAFE standard for cars) = 105405 miles

Even taxis aren't driven that much!

[DadJokes]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there. I have a really hard time believing that there are any gas-burning car owners that are driving enough to pay $1000/year in gasoline taxes:

$1000 divided by 37 cents/gallon (IL gas tax) times 39 miles/gallon (CAFE standard for cars) = 105405 miles

Even taxis aren't driven that much!

No, Tennessee - I just looked it up and found out that the legislation was actually passed in 2017, but it's just an additional $100 added onto registration fees (normally ~$80). It would take 14.7k miles in a gas-powered car at 39 miles/gallon (not sure where that number is coming from). That's certainly on the high end, but not terribly unreasonable, since they are also getting out of the 18.4 cent federal gas tax.

I wonder if the federal government ever tries to come up with a way to tax miles on electric cars...

[Slow&Steady]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there. I have a really hard time believing that there are any gas-burning car owners that are driving enough to pay $1000/year in gasoline taxes:

$1000 divided by 37 cents/gallon (IL gas tax) times 39 miles/gallon (CAFE standard for cars) = 105405 miles

Even taxis aren't driven that much!

No, Tennessee - I just looked it up and found out that the legislation was actually passed in 2017, but it's just an additional $100 added onto registration fees (normally ~$80). It would take 14.7k miles in a gas-powered car at 39 miles/gallon (not sure where that number is coming from). That's certainly on the high end, but not terribly unreasonable, since they are also getting out of the 18.4 cent federal gas tax.

I wonder if the federal government ever tries to come up with a way to tax miles on electric cars...

I have heard rumors about this happening in my state too (none of the ones listed above).  I am an EV driver and agree with the toll road option but don't think that will really ever happen so paying an increased fee at registration seems like the fastest/easiest way for the state to collect money from me for the roads that I use.

Now if they could just figure out a way to maintain the roads I drive so that I am not replacing tires and tie-rods multiple times a year that would be awesome.  (Yes I should watch for potholes better, but when the damn thing wasn't there yesterday but is today and is bigger than my entire car I cannot avoid that without cause more damage)

[economista]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there. I have a really hard time believing that there are any gas-burning car owners that are driving enough to pay $1000/year in gasoline taxes:

$1000 divided by 37 cents/gallon (IL gas tax) times 39 miles/gallon (CAFE standard for cars) = 105405 miles

Even taxis aren't driven that much!

No, Tennessee - I just looked it up and found out that the legislation was actually passed in 2017, but it's just an additional $100 added onto registration fees (normally ~$80). It would take 14.7k miles in a gas-powered car at 39 miles/gallon (not sure where that number is coming from). That's certainly on the high end, but not terribly unreasonable, since they are also getting out of the 18.4 cent federal gas tax.

I wonder if the federal government ever tries to come up with a way to tax miles on electric cars...

I have heard rumors about this happening in my state too (none of the ones listed above).  I am an EV driver and agree with the toll road option but don't think that will really ever happen so paying an increased fee at registration seems like the fastest/easiest way for the state to collect money from me for the roads that I use.

Now if they could just figure out a way to maintain the roads I drive so that I am not replacing tires and tie-rods multiple times a year that would be awesome.  (Yes I should watch for potholes better, but when the damn thing wasn't there yesterday but is today and is bigger than my entire car I cannot avoid that without cause more damage)

This is the case in CO as well, but I would love to have such cheap car registration. The normal registration for a new car is around $600-$900 depending on the weight of the vehicle. When I just bought my EV a few months ago I was annoyed there was an extra $50 fee tacked on for it being an EV. However, we do get a state tax credit of $5000 for purchasing an EV, so I guess it is still incentivized, but I really don’t like disincentivizing EVs.

[mm1970]

I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

What we really need to be doing is converting more roads to toll roads to make the clear connection between using something and paying for it.

I've noticed some toll roads in southern LA/  San Diego area.  Ended up on one by accident (stupid google maps).  I don't mind paying tolls (and it was a tiny bit faster), but the method of payment (all online, and hard to navigate by phone) was annoying. 

[thedigitalone]

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

(Sigh) Washington State:
Washington State bill to increase annual EV fee to $350
Currently annual EV fee is $150 but new proposal is on the docket to raise it to $350.

https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=5971&Year=2019

From Geekwire article:
"The current annual EV registration fee of $150 is roughly comparable to the amount of state gas tax (currently $0.494 per gallon) a driver of a 34.6 mpg gas-powered car would pay after driving about 10,500 miles per year. That’s the average fuel efficiency of light-duty passenger cars from the 10-year period between 2007 and 2016, according to data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

Under the new tax structure proposed by SB-5971 of $0.554 per gallon of gas and $350 per year for EVs, a 34.6 mpg gas-powered car would have to be driven 21,850 miles (2.4 times the WA state average) before the owner would pay Washington State as much in gas taxes as EV owners would be charged each year to register their vehicles"

[Syonyk]

It this Illinois? I heard about the proposal to make the registration fee an eye-popping $1000 for an EV there.

Yeah, but you can probably get an official exemption if you make a campaign contribution.  You know, a little... wink wink, eh?  Some Bennios in the pocketios?

[dcheesi]

I had a similar experience (though confused rather than accusatory) when I mentioned to my mom that maybe I'll be able to get a used electric car by the time my current (gas) car dies. She didn't think it would save any money, because apparently in the midwestern state where I grew up, you have to pay a big annual tax to make up for the fact that you aren't paying gas taxes.

I explained that isn't a thing in California; in fact there is a big tax break for buying new electric cars, plus access to the carpool lanes. Electric cars are incentivized.

"So then how do they pay to keep up the roads?"

I'm not actually sure what the long-term plan is, but de-incentivizing the switch away from fossil fuels does not sound like a great strategy!

I believe I've heard mention in my state of increasing vehicle registration fees for electric vehicles. I get that it is a disincentive to get an electric car if you no longer get that tax break, but the roads still have to be paid for by those who use them, so it makes sense to me to find some way to make electric car drivers pay their fair share for the roads they use.

What we really need to be doing is converting more roads to toll roads to make the clear connection between using something and paying for it.

I've noticed some toll roads in southern LA/  San Diego area.  Ended up on one by accident (stupid google maps).  I don't mind paying tolls (and it was a tiny bit faster), but the method of payment (all online, and hard to navigate by phone) was annoying.

Or even more "fun", lots of toll roads and "express lanes" around here are EZ-Pass only; if you wind up on that road without a transponder, you're automatically looking at big fine...

[AlanStache]

EZ-Pass is nearly required in South East Virginia with the bridges and tunnels.  You can not have one but then you are charged like 3 times more per toll.  It would be impracticable to ovoid the toll tunnels.  For a long time we had very few tolls so everyone set up there life to drive from one land area across some water to a different land area but the infrastructure did not keep up and to pay for new crossings tolls were added a few years back.  And there will likely be more tolls in future.  when I bought my current house I picked an area that would not require crossing a tunnel/bottleneck and it is great having a short commute.

[Catbert]

California is getting ready (2020 I think) to charge electric vehicles an extra $100 a year.  This show everybody

http://www.ncsl.org/research/energy/new-fees-on-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles.aspx

[A Fella from Stella]

I bought a house that was not a great one, but has been slowly getting improved.

My siblings? One rents a very nice place with matching leased Mercedes in front, and the other paid the same amount as me for half as much space in a less desirable school district.

Everyone worries that I must not be doing well despite the fact that I've told them I have a 15 yr loan on the place. But they see that my van has 161k miles, not that my mortgage balance is $161k and I'm under 40.

[six-car-habit]

EZ-Pass is nearly required in South East Virginia with the bridges and tunnels.  You can not have one but then you are charged like 3 times more per toll.  It would be impracticable to ovoid the toll tunnels.  For a long time we had very few tolls so everyone set up there life to drive from one land area across some water to a different land area but the infrastructure did not keep up and to pay for new crossings tolls were added a few years back.  And there will likely be more tolls in future.  when I bought my current house I picked an area that would not require crossing a tunnel/bottleneck and it is great having a short commute.

 Whatever happened to the note on every denomination of dollar bill i've ever seen -- " This note is legal tender for all debts public and private " -- i wonder why these toll roads are not required to have a cash lane....
  Likewise, my Health maintenance organization refuses to accept cash for co-pays -- hmmmn, my dollar bill says otherwise ?

[flipboard]

Whatever happened to the note on every denomination of dollar bill i've ever seen -- " This note is legal tender for all debts public and private " -- i wonder why these toll roads are not required to have a cash lane....
  Likewise, my Health maintenance organization refuses to accept cash for co-pays -- hmmmn, my dollar bill says otherwise ?

Keyword is debt.

Presumably once the toll road operators send you a bill by mail you could pay it with cash.