Relatives who just don't get it

[Goldielocks]

I'm curious to hear about Dutch people across the Atlantic! I honestly had no idea there were close-knit Dutch communities at all. I have relatives in Canada and they all assimilated very quickly. No one speaks Dutch except the ones born here and they all changed their names to English names. I had the impression that was pretty common.

The Dutch family origin people I know here still have the original spelling for last names but generally have more English (or French in Quebec) first names.  That isn't unusual, if you see someone with (for example) an Irish origin last name, the first name will also be anglicized.

My Dutch great-grandfather emigrated to rural Alberta, Canada. My great-grandmother was Scottish and English, though, so my grandfather and siblings all had English names. Our branch of the family moved to Detroit in the 1920s, where my grandfather married my US-born grandma (of Scottish and Irish descent) and the family assimilated fully. There’s still a clan of people near Edmonton, Alberta with the same surname (distant cousins), and they still use some Dutch language. I assume there’s a sizable ethnic Dutch population there.

Plautdietsch isn't Dutch, and is still spoken in rural areas in the Prairies due to religious cutural communities who tie back to a Dutch minister but are not themselves, Dutch...

...and, I think, is quite different from Plattdeutsch (a version of which which my great grandmother spoke).   Pretty much everywhere in Alberta, low German as well as Scandinavian and Dutch languages were NOT spoken during WWII because to the lazy English ear, they sounded like German, which was strongly discriminated against in the west. (Amazing, given what Holland and the Netherlands went through).   And those communities in Alberta no longer speak German sounding languages.
 It (language spoken) survived in more populous German eastern Canada communities (cities like New Berlin... renamed Kitchener for similar reasons).

[markbike528CBX]

....snip...

 It (language spoken) survived in more populous German eastern Canada communities (cities like New Berlin... renamed Kitchener for similar reasons).

In New Berlin PA, the pronunciation tends to be New Ber'ln,but the name retained.
1815, New Berlin was the county seat, and had 7 German-language newspapers, 3 English language newspapers.

A town in Indiana, is "Pershing or New Germantown" , really, 80 years later( at the time) and it still is undecided?

[Imma]

The curtains thing is probably because we live close to each other. If they are all the way open people can look right into your house, but completely closed all day looks like you have something to hide.

But that's no one's business.  Personally I'd want to hide my messy house from such nosy neighbors.  Also, I don't think we've washed our windows since we moved in more than 3 years ago.  We're total slobs.

The whole curtains issue started because we don't have those see-through curtains Linea referred to. Everyone has them but we. You are supposed to have the see through curtains (maybe a little gap between them so you can look out on the street) during the day. We just have regular curtains and they're open when I'm home and downstairs and want daylight and closed otherwise. If the neighbour is feeling awkward about looking into our house all day then maybe he should do something useful with his life instead of staring out of his own window all day.

The thread about the possible prostitute/dealer neighbour also reminded me about another neighbour, who told my partner I'd had "received several male visitors" while he was away for the weekend. He's so direct he isn't used to people trying to say something politely, so at first he didn't understand she was implying I was cheating. The lady was batshit crazy and would spread around gossip like that all the time, we haven't laughed so hard about neighbourhood gossip since she moved out. 

We were in Belgium today and we took a different route than we normally do. We were looking out of the train window trying to guess whether we were still in BE or already in NL. It takes about 5 seconds to determine that. Funny as BE has only been independent for 150 years and there has only been a real, hard border for a century. My family is from both sides of the border and my grandparents, born between WWI and WWII, remember the time way back when there were little cultural and linguage differences between both areas. BE is definitely on the list for places to retire to.

It's also funny that @UncleX is apparantly from pretty much the same area I am and perceives our culture so differently. What I always thought was one of the most distinctive aspects about the south is everybody being so concerned about keeping up appearances and what will the family think about this? Even though not many people in the younger generation are still actively religious, the Catholic heritage with the focus on the family and parents being shamed if their children do not conform I feel is still there.

I had never heard of Plautdietsch and it's indeed more German than Dutch, but on wikipedia I found the Lord's Prayer in Plautdietsch and it's still understandable to me, even though this language hasn't been connected to standard Dutch or German for centuries.

[runbikerun]

My nephew (14) plays for a pro soccer team here in england, in the u15 team (college sport isnt a thing here, the pro teams are responsible for growing (or buying talent). He gets ALL of his gear for free (like a shit-ton of it, 5 shirts so you always play in a clean shirt if you're in a weekend long tournament)

There was a great quote from a professional cyclist who was asked how a teenager wanting to go pro could get the attention of a team. His answer was "win every race you ever enter."

If you're hoping to be a professional athlete and you're sixteen years old, then you need to be the best player on the pitch or the fastest runner or rider on the track every time you lace up. If you've competed against one or two people who were better than you, the odds are already against you.

[flipboard]

The curtains thing is probably because we live close to each other. If they are all the way open people can look right into your house, but completely closed all day looks like you have something to hide. I think I'm a pretty easy neighbour. As long as you don't keep me awake at night, build a drugs lab in the attic or throw bags of thrash in the garden I don't care much.

Isn't that why Dutch people like "vitrage" (see through curtains) in addition to normal curtains? Those can be kept close all day while you still let in sunlight.

Aren't these a thing across middle Europe? I'm pretty sure these see through curtains are common in Germany, Poland, Switzerland (Austria too?).

They're somewhat of a necessity when you have city buildings with lots of windows.

[SwordGuy]

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

But...  But...   She's had a mortgage interest tax deduction all these years.   You would think it would have made her rich!!! :)

[Goldielocks]

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

But...  But...   She's had a mortgage interest tax deduction all these years.   You would think it would have made her rich!!! :)

<<hearts>>

[Cassie]

When I was in Poland the curtains were see through and no heavy curtains over them.

[cloudsail]

New to the forums and enjoying this thread. 

Back in 2008 when the housing market bubble crashed, I mentioned to my SIL that I was refinancing our house to take advantage of the 4+% drop in rates.  She confessed she rather keep her almost 9% rate than show anyone at the bank her full financial picture.  Ten years later the DH and I are debt and mortgage free and planning to RE in a few years.  SIL who makes more than DH and I combined, and who is married to second wage earner, recently complained that she will never be able to retire because of all their bills.

Update on this relative:  My DH was speaking with the SIL last night and mentioned that he recently quit his job because it had become too physically demanding.  No he didn't have the next job lined up when he quit, but we've got a few months saved up in the emergency fund so he has time to get his medical issues straightened out and can be picky about what he applies for next. (He may have also mentioned that he's a little less than three years away from being able to RE anyways - I wasn't in the room for this call.) My DH reports that the SIL blew her top and said "some of us DON'T have our mortgage paid off".

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

She was in the mortgage industry and couldn't see the sense in financing from a terrible rate???

[Goldielocks]

New to the forums and enjoying this thread. 

Back in 2008 when the housing market bubble crashed, I mentioned to my SIL that I was refinancing our house to take advantage of the 4+% drop in rates.  She confessed she rather keep her almost 9% rate than show anyone at the bank her full financial picture.  Ten years later the DH and I are debt and mortgage free and planning to RE in a few years.  SIL who makes more than DH and I combined, and who is married to second wage earner, recently complained that she will never be able to retire because of all their bills.

Update on this relative:  My DH was speaking with the SIL last night and mentioned that he recently quit his job because it had become too physically demanding.  No he didn't have the next job lined up when he quit, but we've got a few months saved up in the emergency fund so he has time to get his medical issues straightened out and can be picky about what he applies for next. (He may have also mentioned that he's a little less than three years away from being able to RE anyways - I wasn't in the room for this call.) My DH reports that the SIL blew her top and said "some of us DON'T have our mortgage paid off".

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

She was in the mortgage industry and couldn't see the sense in financing from a terrible rate???

I am guessing that their credit rating and finances were so bad by then that there was a real risk of losing her job if her employer saw it... given her role in finance where you have to be credit worthy to not considered to be an embezzlement risk..  (?)

And that most employees get a "sweatheart" deal with their employer for their own mortgage, so it never would occur to them to shop it elsewhere because you don't do that as an employee of X company.

[Maenad]

New to the forums and enjoying this thread. 

Back in 2008 when the housing market bubble crashed, I mentioned to my SIL that I was refinancing our house to take advantage of the 4+% drop in rates.  She confessed she rather keep her almost 9% rate than show anyone at the bank her full financial picture.  Ten years later the DH and I are debt and mortgage free and planning to RE in a few years.  SIL who makes more than DH and I combined, and who is married to second wage earner, recently complained that she will never be able to retire because of all their bills.

Update on this relative:  My DH was speaking with the SIL last night and mentioned that he recently quit his job because it had become too physically demanding.  No he didn't have the next job lined up when he quit, but we've got a few months saved up in the emergency fund so he has time to get his medical issues straightened out and can be picky about what he applies for next. (He may have also mentioned that he's a little less than three years away from being able to RE anyways - I wasn't in the room for this call.) My DH reports that the SIL blew her top and said "some of us DON'T have our mortgage paid off".

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

She was in the mortgage industry and couldn't see the sense in financing from a terrible rate???

I am guessing that their credit rating and finances were so bad by then that there was a real risk of losing her job if her employer saw it... given her role in finance where you have to be credit worthy to not considered to be an embezzlement risk..  (?)

And that most employees get a "sweatheart" deal with their employer for their own mortgage, so it never would occur to them to shop it elsewhere because you don't do that as an employee of X company.

And her "sweetheart" deal was over 9%. Oof.

[markbike528CBX]

New to the forums and enjoying this thread. 

Back in 2008 when the housing market bubble crashed, I mentioned to my SIL that I was refinancing our house to take advantage of the 4+% drop in rates.  She confessed she rather keep her almost 9% rate than show anyone at the bank her full financial picture.  Ten years later the DH and I are debt and mortgage free and planning to RE in a few years.  SIL who makes more than DH and I combined, and who is married to second wage earner, recently complained that she will never be able to retire because of all their bills.

Update on this relative:  My DH was speaking with the SIL last night and mentioned that he recently quit his job because it had become too physically demanding.  No he didn't have the next job lined up when he quit, but we've got a few months saved up in the emergency fund so he has time to get his medical issues straightened out and can be picky about what he applies for next. (He may have also mentioned that he's a little less than three years away from being able to RE anyways - I wasn't in the room for this call.) My DH reports that the SIL blew her top and said "some of us DON'T have our mortgage paid off".

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

She was in the mortgage industry and couldn't see the sense in financing from a terrible rate???

I am guessing that their credit rating and finances were so bad by then that there was a real risk of losing her job if her employer saw it... given her role in finance where you have to be credit worthy to not considered to be an embezzlement risk..  (?)

And that most employees get a "sweatheart" deal with their employer for their own mortgage, so it never would occur to them to shop it elsewhere because you don't do that as an employee of X company.

And her "sweetheart" deal was over 9%. Oof.

Well, the company did know one side of the finance equation.  Also, what better way to tie an employee down than with an albatross of debt?   Shades of the company store.  I wonder if the mortgage was tied to employment?

[Kitsune]

Learned this weekend from a relative: apparently wedding loans are <a thing people do>. (???????)

As in: 'my in-laws expect a style of wedding that runs +/- 60K, and are putting up 40K of that, so I'm going to take out a 20K loan because, since proposing a year and a half ago, we haven't been able to put aside any money in anticipation of this blessed event'. No word on how you're planning on paying off the 20K loan (that's roughly 50% of your take-home pay as a couple, mind - here's hoping your wedding guests are real generous, I guess?), and no hint of changing how you're celebrating said event to match the available 40K.

... no wonder they want cash presents.

(To be clear: their money, their life, their problems, their choices, and they're not whining to me or making it my business, so not really my business and I'm not actively judging - sometimes we all make iffy financial decisions because the finances are secondary to the relationships you're preserving, so, fine. I just can't imaging voluntarily digging a hole that big without a clear plan to dig a way back out, and it's scary to look at from the outside.)

[SwordGuy]

Learned this weekend from a relative: apparently wedding loans are <a thing people do>. (???????)

As in: 'my in-laws expect a style of wedding that runs +/- 60K, and are putting up 40K of that, so I'm going to take out a 20K loan because, since proposing a year and a half ago, we haven't been able to put aside any money in anticipation of this blessed event'. No word on how you're planning on paying off the 20K loan (that's roughly 50% of your take-home pay as a couple, mind - here's hoping your wedding guests are real generous, I guess?), and no hint of changing how you're celebrating said event to match the available 40K.

... no wonder they want cash presents.

(To be clear: their money, their life, their problems, their choices, and they're not whining to me or making it my business, so not really my business and I'm not actively judging - sometimes we all make iffy financial decisions because the finances are secondary to the relationships you're preserving, so, fine. I just can't imaging voluntarily digging a hole that big without a clear plan to dig a way back out, and it's scary to look at from the outside.)

Wow.   That's some special stupid.

They make $40k and they'll take out a loan for $20k to get married with?  Lordy!  That's stupid.

And the parents will spend $40k on this?   $40k could buy a house outright in my area.  It would need another $5k to $10k of work but a lot of that could be delayed a couple of years.

Boggles my mind.

[Imma]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

[Kitsune]

Well, lots of guests (culturally expected) in a very high COL area (we're in Canada, but... Toronto would probably be comparable to Los Angeles, for costs?)

I'd personally lean towards learning to say 'no' to family expectatations and doing something that's in the realm of what we can afford (as in: what we HAVE money for, not an abstract idea of 'affordable' - concrete 'do we have the $' question), and let family relationships deal (or not), but that also means accepting the fall-out of family relationships that don't recover for whatever reason. But I'm also better at being a brick wall of no than the average person, so... *shrugs* Not actively judging, but I'm quite pleased I'm not in that situation, it looks anxiety-inducing in the extreme. Here's hoping their culturally-expected guests are culturally-mandated-to-be-generous, I suppose!

[Hula Hoop]

I'm guessing that maybe they are Indian immigrants and this is an Indian wedding we're talking about?  I have friends who are Indian immigrants and their families expected them to invite hundreds of people.  It was crazy expensive and all about keeping up with the Joneses.

The most fun Indian wedding I've been to was between a friend who is an Indian immigrant in the US and another friend who is not Indian and was born and bred in the US.  Even though she is white, the bride wore a beautiful sari for the wedding, which her future mother in law bought in India for surprisingly little considering how stunning it was.  The groom wore traditional Indian attire and a turban.  The wedding was performed by an Episcopalian minister (bride was Episcopalian, groom non-practicing Hindu - family not that religious) and they had a Hindu blessing later during a trip to India.  The food was catered from an Indian restaurant and the we danced the night away to Bollywood music.  The bride put her foot down about costs so they had fewer than 100 guests.

[Imma]

I have a friend from a culture where 600+ guests is the norm, but funny enough the weddings in her family are usually not that expensive. There are several very large, affordable venues in our area that specifically target these weddings, they are not that expensive and are already completely decorated. All the food for all of these guests is cooked by aunts and sisters and neighbours and the gifts are very generous. The big downside is that she's basically catering someone else's wedding for free once a month and isn't planning to get married herself (which is taboo in her culture).

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens, but at the same time no one is still expecting a wedding and I know they will be really happy that I'm finally wearing a ring. I'm just so glad I didn't grow up in my friend's family. It's so hard to find the balance between not offending your whole family (she loves them and wants a relationship with them) and living the life that you want to live.

[Kitsune]

Greek - I think she's a third or fourth generation immigrant? And a lot of it, culturally, seems to be about showing that the family CAN. Regardless of whether that's reflected in reality.

I mean, I come at this from the perspective of someone who made most of the food for our wedding (we hired someone to roast meat and did everything else ourselves - because there are no decent restaurants in a 20-mile radius), and had a fantastically fun country wedding for under 5K (and, y'know, feeding and boozing 130 people costs money, so 5K ain't the worst) - seriously, good time had by all. 60K just boggles. my. mind. Especially 60k that ain't there.

[Hula Hoop]

Greek - I think she's a third or fourth generation immigrant? And a lot of it, culturally, seems to be about showing that the family CAN. Regardless of whether that's reflected in reality.

Funnily enough, I've heard from a couple of Greek friends (ie born and grew up in Greece) that nowadays in Greece huge, traditional weddings are not the norm.  They were all shaking their heads at the movie "My big, fat Greek Wedding" as that is not really done nowadays in Greece.  In fact, a lot of people just live together and have kids and don't bother with a wedding at all.  But, as usual, immigrant communities preserve the social norms of a previous era.

[AlanStache]

Greek - I think she's a third or fourth generation immigrant? And a lot of it, culturally, seems to be about showing that the family CAN. Regardless of whether that's reflected in reality.

Funnily enough, I've heard from a couple of Greek friends (ie born and grew up in Greece) that nowadays in Greece huge, traditional weddings are not the norm.  They were all shaking their heads at the movie "My big, fat Greek Wedding" as that is not really done nowadays in Greece.  In fact, a lot of people just live together and have kids and don't bother with a wedding at all.  But, as usual, immigrant communities preserve the social norms of a previous era.

Was that change brought on by the Greek government financial crisis, or was it already underway? 

[Hula Hoop]

Greek - I think she's a third or fourth generation immigrant? And a lot of it, culturally, seems to be about showing that the family CAN. Regardless of whether that's reflected in reality.

Funnily enough, I've heard from a couple of Greek friends (ie born and grew up in Greece) that nowadays in Greece huge, traditional weddings are not the norm.  They were all shaking their heads at the movie "My big, fat Greek Wedding" as that is not really done nowadays in Greece.  In fact, a lot of people just live together and have kids and don't bother with a wedding at all.  But, as usual, immigrant communities preserve the social norms of a previous era.

Was that change brought on by the Greek government financial crisis, or was it already underway?

I got the impression that it was already underway quite a long time ago in Athens and a bit more recently in the countryside.  My friend who grew up in Athens is in his late 40s, so his youth pre-dated the economic crisis.  He has two children with his Greek ex-partner but they never married.  Apparently this was/is pretty normal in Greece (just like here in Italy - about half my friends are not married to the fathers of their children).  My other Greek friend is a bit younger - about 35 - and he lives here in Italy with his Italian partner.  No plans to get married even though they own an apartment together.  He said that in the small town in Greece where he comes from this is pretty normal nowadays - he has never mentioned parental pressure to get married - and big weddings like in My Big Fat Greek Wedding would be quite retro.

[Cassie]

The norm in Poland is still 2-3 day weddings.  It was a lot more fun than weddings in the states.

[mm1970]

I'm guessing that maybe they are Indian immigrants and this is an Indian wedding we're talking about?  I have friends who are Indian immigrants and their families expected them to invite hundreds of people.  It was crazy expensive and all about keeping up with the Joneses.

The most fun Indian wedding I've been to was between a friend who is an Indian immigrant in the US and another friend who is not Indian and was born and bred in the US.  Even though she is white, the bride wore a beautiful sari for the wedding, which her future mother in law bought in India for surprisingly little considering how stunning it was.  The groom wore traditional Indian attire and a turban.  The wedding was performed by an Episcopalian minister (bride was Episcopalian, groom non-practicing Hindu - family not that religious) and they had a Hindu blessing later during a trip to India.  The food was catered from an Indian restaurant and the we danced the night away to Bollywood music.  The bride put her foot down about costs so they had fewer than 100 guests.

Prob one of my all time favorite weddings was Indian.  My coworker (from India) and his bride (second gen Indian American).  They had the whole shebang and it was GORGEOUS.  Once my boss told me that we weren't expected to pay attention for the whole 2+ hour ceremony.  The food was fantastic.  The saris...amazing.  Many of the guests needed to change out of the saris to their "party clothes" for the reception.  As we were staying at the hotel, I let them use our room and MAN the party dresses were just as good.  I love fabric and color.

Then a bunch of Pakistani-type techno dance music.  Good food, amazing fabrics, dance music, and friends??

[Imma]

The norm in Poland is still 2-3 day weddings.  It was a lot more fun than weddings in the states.

A friend of mine married a Polish woman and they had the wedding in her hometown. I wasn't able to go but everyone told me it was one of the most fun weddings they'd ever been to.

My favorite wedding was a couple who invited all guests to the ceremony at the register office at 4.30 pm (usually in here only the close family and friends attend the civil ceremony itself). Then they hired off their favourite restaurant and we had a laid back party with really good food until 9 or 10 pm. No one was super tired or drunk and everyone got a chance to actually talk to the couple.

[Cassie]

My son married a Polish woman and they feed a different food course every hour. Lots of alcohol but no one is drunk. They played a lot of funny games and most join in.  Some of the games involved the married couple or the parents of both. Lots of traditional group dancing.   Polish people are super friendly and inclusive. A few people spoke English and would translate.

[Just Joe]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

Don't forget fireworks. Must have fireworks.

[gooki]

And cryogenic frozen butterflies.

[ender]

My son married a Polish woman and they feed a different food course every hour. Lots of alcohol but no one is drunk. They played a lot of funny games and most join in.  Some of the games involved the married couple or the parents of both. Lots of traditional group dancing.   Polish people are super friendly and inclusive. A few people spoke English and would translate.

We did a barn dance at our wedding (basically square dancing with other group dances too).

1000x better than the traditional DJ music thing that is so popular now. Seriously, does anyone actually like that type of dance?

A bunch of our relatives looked embarrassed they enjoyed themselves, it was hilarious. "I don't dance" followed by that smile and awkward "I'm actually having fun this is weird" after getting them dragged out. Plus, group dances are so much easier to convince people to join with :-)

[mm1970]

My son married a Polish woman and they feed a different food course every hour. Lots of alcohol but no one is drunk. They played a lot of funny games and most join in.  Some of the games involved the married couple or the parents of both. Lots of traditional group dancing.   Polish people are super friendly and inclusive. A few people spoke English and would translate.

We did a barn dance at our wedding (basically square dancing with other group dances too).

1000x better than the traditional DJ music thing that is so popular now. Seriously, does anyone actually like that type of dance?

A bunch of our relatives looked embarrassed they enjoyed themselves, it was hilarious. "I don't dance" followed by that smile and awkward "I'm actually having fun this is weird" after getting them dragged out. Plus, group dances are so much easier to convince people to join with :-)

Uh, me?

I liked that kind of dance in the mid-1990s when I got married too.  I love dancing! I embarrass the heck out of my kids if I'm ever dropping them at a school dance, or happen  to hear music and break out into dance.

Then again, I grew up having to do square dancing in gym class, and the hokey pokey or other line dances in high school, and pretty much grew to hate them.

Hated them so much I said "no hokey pokey, no chicken dance" to my DJ at my wedding. When my SIL asked for Macarena he said "sorry, bride says no line dances".  She begged, I was 3 glasses of wine in, and relented.

Then proceeded to hear the reggae version of Macarena 10x a day on our Caribbean honeymoon, sigh.

[markbike528CBX]

And cryogenic frozen butterflies.

Dammit, you made me look this up.   Not frozen, but the butterflies are a thing.  Now I can't unthink that thought.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/reasons-to-think-twice-about-releasing-butterflies-at-your-wedding_288800.html

I don't remember them on the list in the chapel in Vegas.

[Inaya]

And cryogenic frozen butterflies.

Dammit, you made me look this up.   Not frozen, but the butterflies are a thing.  Now I can't unthink that thought.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/reasons-to-think-twice-about-releasing-butterflies-at-your-wedding_288800.html

I don't remember them on the list in the chapel in Vegas.

Nothing says a future of wedded bliss like a box of dead bugs.

[PrairieBeardstache]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

[2Cent]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

[Kitsune]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I know one guy who threw a party when he paid off his wedding the same week as he signed his divorce papers.

... 2 months before his second wedding.

[SwordGuy]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

In my mom's final years she had a lady come in and clean for her.   The lady got divorced from her husband.   But neither of them could afford to live alone so they continued to live together.

Damn, but if that isn't a motivation for getting your finances in order, I don't know what is.

[Playing with Fire UK]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I know one guy who threw a party when he paid off his wedding the same week as he signed his divorce papers.

... 2 months before his second wedding.

Wow: chin, meet floor. Any chance the second wedding was a more modest affair? Or did the new partner demand everything and more from the first one?

[Kitsune]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I know one guy who threw a party when he paid off his wedding the same week as he signed his divorce papers.

... 2 months before his second wedding.

Wow: chin, meet floor. Any chance the second wedding was a more modest affair? Or did the new partner demand everything and more from the first one?

The second wedding was... not what I would consider modest, but honestly was probably more reasonable. And they're still happily together 10 years later, so it wasn't a horrible idea overall.

[cassafrass]

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens,

My husband and I did a semi-elopement. We told our parents and siblings we were planning on getting married on X day about a month in the future and they were invited if they were willing/able to come. We hired an officiant, walked out into some pretty nature and said our vows while our family stood around us. Then my FIL treated us all to a fancy dinner. It was a great day and I'm so glad we did it that way.

By telling our parents what was going on, we avoided hurt feelings. But we presented our plans in a take-it-or-leave-it way, as in: this is what we're doing and we'd love you to come, but we're not budging on how this day will go down. Maybe you could try something similar @Imma

[PrairieBeardstache]

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I feel bad admitting this, but I don't know if it will last so I do expect to be offering him a place to stay to recover from his crippling debt should his marriage fail. I don't know that he'll ever be able to actually live a life that he wants but should he fall I can offer him a place to land.

[Imma]

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens,

My husband and I did a semi-elopement. We told our parents and siblings we were planning on getting married on X day about a month in the future and they were invited if they were willing/able to come. We hired an officiant, walked out into some pretty nature and said our vows while our family stood around us. Then my FIL treated us all to a fancy dinner. It was a great day and I'm so glad we did it that way.

By telling our parents what was going on, we avoided hurt feelings. But we presented our plans in a take-it-or-leave-it way, as in: this is what we're doing and we'd love you to come, but we're not budging on how this day will go down. Maybe you could try something similar @Imma

Yeah I wish. That sounds like my dream wedding: nothing fancy, but all our loved ones present.

Sadly in our case the family's expectations are more like "you can't invite this person, you must invite that person, or we're not attending". Both sets of parents are divorced and both sets of siblings also have had big fights. It's totally impossible to get all our close relatives together in one room. It hasn't happened in a very long time.

[markbike528CBX]

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens,

My husband and I did a semi-elopement. We told our parents and siblings we were planning on getting married on X day about a month in the future and they were invited if they were willing/able to come. We hired an officiant, walked out into some pretty nature and said our vows while our family stood around us. Then my FIL treated us all to a fancy dinner. It was a great day and I'm so glad we did it that way.

By telling our parents what was going on, we avoided hurt feelings. But we presented our plans in a take-it-or-leave-it way, as in: this is what we're doing and we'd love you to come, but we're not budging on how this day will go down. Maybe you could try something similar @Imma

Yeah I wish. That sounds like my dream wedding: nothing fancy, but all our loved ones present.

Sadly in our case the family's expectations are more like "you can't invite this person, you must invite that person, or we're not attending". Both sets of parents are divorced and both sets of siblings also have had big fights. It's totally impossible to get all our close relatives together in one room. It hasn't happened in a very long time.

A wedding is Your time ( unless someone else is paying).  The mentioned approach is precisely what you need to do to solve the attendance problem. Make the problem not yours, and it will sort itself out.

[SwordGuy]

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens,

My husband and I did a semi-elopement. We told our parents and siblings we were planning on getting married on X day about a month in the future and they were invited if they were willing/able to come. We hired an officiant, walked out into some pretty nature and said our vows while our family stood around us. Then my FIL treated us all to a fancy dinner. It was a great day and I'm so glad we did it that way.

By telling our parents what was going on, we avoided hurt feelings. But we presented our plans in a take-it-or-leave-it way, as in: this is what we're doing and we'd love you to come, but we're not budging on how this day will go down. Maybe you could try something similar @Imma

Yeah I wish. That sounds like my dream wedding: nothing fancy, but all our loved ones present.

Sadly in our case the family's expectations are more like "you can't invite this person, you must invite that person, or we're not attending". Both sets of parents are divorced and both sets of siblings also have had big fights. It's totally impossible to get all our close relatives together in one room. It hasn't happened in a very long time.

I guess I'm just simple.  I don't put up with crap like that and I let them know it in no uncertain words.

[Maenad]

There were... issues between my MIL and her sisters when DH and I got married. We "returned the awkwardness to sender" and told them that their interpersonal issues were their own to deal with, not ours. (Politely but firmly.)

I do highly recommend it. Trying to dance around who-hates-who is exhausting, and you'll never do it right. Their fights were not caused by you, and can't be fixed by you. Please take care of yourself and release yourself from this particular responsibility.

[Imma]

We are definitely not putting up with that kind of crap - that's why we aren't married yet and will elope in the future. Sadly, we know for a fact that none of out relatives will turn up if it hasn't been discussed beforehand who is attending and who isn't. We have tried the approach of inviting everyone and letting them deal with their own issues and on previous occasions that has just lead to more crap and no attendees. I'm not going to risk organising a wedding and not having anyone turn up. I'd much rather spend that money on eloping to a nice place and have our honeymoon there.

[MishMash]

Sounds like my husbands ex wife, she married husband number 3 (prior to age 30) 5 days after the divorce was finalized.  Husband three took out a six figure second mortgage (high of the market boom) paid for a huge wedding and a boat and truck.  Market turned 6 months later and they are so underwater on the mortgage they will never move.

I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

I know what it looks like: the same as one that costs $20k. Really, I couldn't tell a difference. And in my particular case, on top of the $60k wedding, my friends already had $300k in debt - they just bought two new cars (not cheap ones)!  I really struggle talking about anything remotely financial with them.

Nothing says together forever like crippling debt. Can't get divorced if you can't afford a lawyer. ;-)

I know one guy who threw a party when he paid off his wedding the same week as he signed his divorce papers.

... 2 months before his second wedding.

Wow: chin, meet floor. Any chance the second wedding was a more modest affair? Or did the new partner demand everything and more from the first one?

[KathrinS]

His son (18) wants to be an ice hockey player, so obviously he needs all of the best, professional gear.  He needs new, expensive hockey sticks (over $100) every few weeks because when he loses, he smashes them on the ground in rage.

The daughter (20) has a boyfriend who regularly orders things from her phone and accounts, but then doesn't pay for them. Her online shopping accounts have repeatedly been blocked because of this, and my uncle's family is constantly paying off the boyfriend's debt. In addition, she has an online shopping addiction, with new things being delivered every week for the last 4-5 years.

So, I'm back with family over Easter and catching up with all the family gossip. This family runs a hotel and on the ground floor, there's a large hall that can hold 400 people for events. This hasn't been used in many years, but the father's cars are stored there and it serves as an entertainment room for the kids. There's  a TV and sofa, a full wall of mirrors and a stage. The son uses it to watch hockey matches, and the daughter for occasional parties. Recently it's come to light that the costs of running this hall (utilities, maintenance etc) is around $16 000 a year. I just ... don't even really know what to say.

[Hula Hoop]

We are definitely not putting up with that kind of crap - that's why we aren't married yet and will elope in the future. Sadly, we know for a fact that none of out relatives will turn up if it hasn't been discussed beforehand who is attending and who isn't. We have tried the approach of inviting everyone and letting them deal with their own issues and on previous occasions that has just lead to more crap and no attendees. I'm not going to risk organising a wedding and not having anyone turn up. I'd much rather spend that money on eloping to a nice place and have our honeymoon there.

In that situation, eloping sounds like a perfect solution.

[Just Joe]

Had a conversation with a relative who expressed a strong desire to buy a pickup truck to go along with their SUV. They currently have two vehicles and one member of their marriage is no longer able to drive. They have zero projects, zero things to tow, nothing to carry in said pickup truck. They are late in life and really ought to just sell one of their vehicles b/c they never drive the second vehicle. Soaks up insurance and registration fees. Also complained about their limited parking. I just nodded along. I truly want to help them see their folly but I didn't know what to say.

[sapphail]

His son (18) wants to be an ice hockey player, so obviously he needs all of the best, professional gear.  He needs new, expensive hockey sticks (over $100) every few weeks because when he loses, he smashes them on the ground in rage.

The daughter (20) has a boyfriend who regularly orders things from her phone and accounts, but then doesn't pay for them. Her online shopping accounts have repeatedly been blocked because of this, and my uncle's family is constantly paying off the boyfriend's debt. In addition, she has an online shopping addiction, with new things being delivered every week for the last 4-5 years.

So, I'm back with family over Easter and catching up with all the family gossip. This family runs a hotel and on the ground floor, there's a large hall that can hold 400 people for events. This hasn't been used in many years, but the father's cars are stored there and it serves as an entertainment room for the kids. There's  a TV and sofa, a full wall of mirrors and a stage. The son uses it to watch hockey matches, and the daughter for occasional parties. Recently it's come to light that the costs of running this hall (utilities, maintenance etc) is around $16 000 a year. I just ... don't even really know what to say.

All of my what. So, so many questions here. First among them being 'Whyyyyyyyy?!'