Relatives who just don't get it

[Sugaree]

When I was making min wage and taking handouts from my parents, I decided to be transparent with them about my expenses. So I was explaining to Dad about my bills.

Dad: Why are you so worried about an extra $100 here and there? You only need $3000/month to survive.
Me: Dad, I make min wage.
Dad: So?
Me: That's $1350/month.

His jaw hit the floor. The idiot honestly thought min wage was $3000/month.

My mother likes to make really emotional decisions - go back to school for a Masters in Arts, buy clothes and housewares on sale that she doesn't need, live paycheck to paycheck even though she's in her late 50s. Her favourite saying? "Money isn't everything".

True, money isn't everything, but if you found other ways to feel good that didn't cost so damn much you'd be in a much better place financially.

She's started using the phrase to guilt me for my choices. Things like moving across the province, having my own career, working two jobs to pay off student debt. According to her, I should work less, spend more, visit more often, and send her more gifts.

I have frequently found that people who say "Money isn't everything" use it as a defense mechanism to project their shame about being irresponsible with money onto those who are responsible with money.  It's almost a type of gaslighting.

I say it quite frequently when asked why I don't apply for a certain job here.  The job would be about an 11% raise, but involves doing stuff that I'd rather gouge my own eyeballs out with a rusty spoon than do.

[aceyou]

I have frequently found that people who say "Money isn't everything" use it as a defense mechanism to project their shame about being irresponsible with money onto those who are responsible with money.  It's almost a type of gaslighting.

Yes.

And my response to that is usually along the lines of...

"Correct.  Money isn't everything.  For me, doing meaningful things with people I care about is what life is about.  The harder I save, the more time and money I have to do that." 

[accountingteacher]

When I was making min wage and taking handouts from my parents, I decided to be transparent with them about my expenses. So I was explaining to Dad about my bills.

Dad: Why are you so worried about an extra $100 here and there? You only need $3000/month to survive.
Me: Dad, I make min wage.
Dad: So?
Me: That's $1350/month.

His jaw hit the floor. The idiot honestly thought min wage was $3000/month.

My mother likes to make really emotional decisions - go back to school for a Masters in Arts, buy clothes and housewares on sale that she doesn't need, live paycheck to paycheck even though she's in her late 50s. Her favourite saying? "Money isn't everything".

True, money isn't everything, but if you found other ways to feel good that didn't cost so damn much you'd be in a much better place financially.

She's started using the phrase to guilt me for my choices. Things like moving across the province, having my own career, working two jobs to pay off student debt. According to her, I should work less, spend more, visit more often, and send her more gifts.

I have frequently found that people who say "Money isn't everything" use it as a defense mechanism to project their shame about being irresponsible with money onto those who are responsible with money.  It's almost a type of gaslighting.

I say it quite frequently when asked why I don't apply for a certain job here.  The job would be about an 11% raise, but involves doing stuff that I'd rather gouge my own eyeballs out with a rusty spoon than do.

Good point.  I don't think you're using the expression the same way Kelvin's mom is in the example above though!  Saying "Money isn't everything and therefore I won't do what you want in exchange for your money" has a lot more integrity than "Money isn't everything and therefore you should give me your money!"

[nnls]

When I was making min wage and taking handouts from my parents, I decided to be transparent with them about my expenses. So I was explaining to Dad about my bills.

Dad: Why are you so worried about an extra $100 here and there? You only need $3000/month to survive.
Me: Dad, I make min wage.
Dad: So?
Me: That's $1350/month.

His jaw hit the floor. The idiot honestly thought min wage was $3000/month.

My mother likes to make really emotional decisions - go back to school for a Masters in Arts, buy clothes and housewares on sale that she doesn't need, live paycheck to paycheck even though she's in her late 50s. Her favourite saying? "Money isn't everything".

True, money isn't everything, but if you found other ways to feel good that didn't cost so damn much you'd be in a much better place financially.

She's started using the phrase to guilt me for my choices. Things like moving across the province, having my own career, working two jobs to pay off student debt. According to her, I should work less, spend more, visit more often, and send her more gifts.

I have frequently found that people who say "Money isn't everything" use it as a defense mechanism to project their shame about being irresponsible with money onto those who are responsible with money.  It's almost a type of gaslighting.

my mum prefers "you cant take it with you" to try and get me to spend my money

[Dicey]

I have frequently found that people who say "Money isn't everything" use it as a defense mechanism to project their shame about being irresponsible with money onto those who are responsible with money.  It's almost a type of gaslighting.

Yes.

And my response to that is usually along the lines of...

"Correct.  Money isn't everything.  For me, doing meaningful things with people I care about is what life is about.  The harder I save, the more time and money I have to do that."

Great answer, @aceyou!

[TheGrimSqueaker]

When I was making min wage and taking handouts from my parents, I decided to be transparent with them about my expenses. So I was explaining to Dad about my bills.

Dad: Why are you so worried about an extra $100 here and there? You only need $3000/month to survive.
Me: Dad, I make min wage.
Dad: So?
Me: That's $1350/month.

His jaw hit the floor. The idiot honestly thought min wage was $3000/month.

My mother likes to make really emotional decisions - go back to school for a Masters in Arts, buy clothes and housewares on sale that she doesn't need, live paycheck to paycheck even though she's in her late 50s. Her favourite saying? "Money isn't everything".

True, money isn't everything, but if you found other ways to feel good that didn't cost so damn much you'd be in a much better place financially.

She's started using the phrase to guilt me for my choices. Things like moving across the province, having my own career, working two jobs to pay off student debt. According to her, I should work less, spend more, visit more often, and send her more gifts.

I have frequently found that people who say "Money isn't everything" use it as a defense mechanism to project their shame about being irresponsible with money onto those who are responsible with money.  It's almost a type of gaslighting.

I say it quite frequently when asked why I don't apply for a certain job here.  The job would be about an 11% raise, but involves doing stuff that I'd rather gouge my own eyeballs out with a rusty spoon than do.

Good point.  I don't think you're using the expression the same way Kelvin's mom is in the example above though!  Saying "Money isn't everything and therefore I won't do what you want in exchange for your money" has a lot more integrity than "Money isn't everything and therefore you should give me your money!"

Context is important. I do find that the majority of people who use the phrase are implying "... therefore you should give me your money and/or spend it on things that benefit me, particularly while I do nothing whatsoever in exchange to benefit you."

[zolotiyeruki]

Context is important. I do find that the majority of people who use the phrase are implying "... therefore you should give me your money and/or spend it on things that benefit me, particularly while I do nothing whatsoever in exchange to benefit you."

To which you could reply, "It seems money matters more to me than it does to you, so why don't you just give me some of yours?"

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Context is important. I do find that the majority of people who use the phrase are implying "... therefore you should give me your money and/or spend it on things that benefit me, particularly while I do nothing whatsoever in exchange to benefit you."

To which you could reply, "It seems money matters more to me than it does to you, so why don't you just give me some of yours?"

They never have any.

[accountingteacher]

Context is important. I do find that the majority of people who use the phrase are implying "... therefore you should give me your money and/or spend it on things that benefit me, particularly while I do nothing whatsoever in exchange to benefit you."

To which you could reply, "It seems money matters more to me than it does to you, so why don't you just give me some of yours?"

They never have any.

... and yet they never see that irony.  Years ago my SIL suggested to Mr.  AccountingTeacher that we jointly buy FIL's house to rescue him from a lifetime of financial foolishness.  I refused because I didn't want to effectively be in a joint venture with people who I knew could barely afford their own house, much less a second one, and I knew we would be left holding the proverbial bag. That's when I was first accused of only caring about money. 

[LWYRUP]

I actually like the look of brick houses that are painted and then the paint begins to slowly fade away in some places and so the house is partly the painted color and partly brick.  It works particularly well whitewashed, like this:



Or this



There's no maintenance as far as I'm aware.  You just let the house slowly fade from white to brick color over time. 

[Linea_Norway]

Context is important. I do find that the majority of people who use the phrase are implying "... therefore you should give me your money and/or spend it on things that benefit me, particularly while I do nothing whatsoever in exchange to benefit you."

To which you could reply, "It seems money matters more to me than it does to you, so why don't you just give me some of yours?"

They never have any.

... and yet they never see that irony.  Years ago my SIL suggested to Mr.  AccountingTeacher that we jointly buy FIL's house to rescue him from a lifetime of financial foolishness.  I refused because I didn't want to effectively be in a joint venture with people who I knew could barely afford their own house, much less a second one, and I knew we would be left holding the proverbial bag. That's when I was first accused of only caring about money.

You are right not to do that. Just read this thread to see why you shouldn't financially join family members who are bad with money:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/playing-with-fire-is-getting-burned/

[shelivesthedream]

@kelvin Are you serious about your dad thinking minimum wage was $3000 a month?! Please tell me more about your conversation after he found out it wasn't.

[kelvin]

@shelivesthedream He was serious. I've rarely seen him struck dumb like that before.

He had a noticeable improvement in his attitude after that. He was more willing to help me with bits and bobs of money here and there, as he could afford, and stopped saying things like "well if you just budgeted properly...". He also stopped pestering me about buying a house, since he understands now that won't be happening for a bit.

He's still incredibly foolish with his own money, but he never tries to guilt me for my choices anymore.

Context is important. I do find that the majority of people who use the phrase are implying "... therefore you should give me your money and/or spend it on things that benefit me, particularly while I do nothing whatsoever in exchange to benefit you."

To which you could reply, "It seems money matters more to me than it does to you, so why don't you just give me some of yours?"

They never have any.

... and yet they never see that irony.  Years ago my SIL suggested to Mr.  AccountingTeacher that we jointly buy FIL's house to rescue him from a lifetime of financial foolishness.  I refused because I didn't want to effectively be in a joint venture with people who I knew could barely afford their own house, much less a second one, and I knew we would be left holding the proverbial bag. That's when I was first accused of only caring about money.

Mom thrives on constant guilt trips. Her entire family seems to think this normal, acceptable behaviour. I haven't figured out how to shut down this particular line of thought, but you're right, this is absolutely about power, control, being "the good child" etc. Nevermind that I'm in my 30s and moved out ages ago.

I'm currently working (getting paid overtime! To sit in my pjs infront of my work laptop!) and my SO's mother was horrified when she found out I'm working three weekends this month. I had shared the news as a good thing, because it is. Clearly I need to change my approach here. Anyone have any tips on how to politely talk around OT with suburban middle class folks? SO's family invite us out for things fairly frequently, so the fact that I'm working and can't go is going to be a recurring theme.

[Imma]

@shelivesthedream He was serious. I've rarely seen him struck dumb like that before.

He had a noticeable improvement in his attitude after that. He was more willing to help me with bits and bobs of money here and there, as he could afford, and stopped saying things like "well if you just budgeted properly...". He also stopped pestering me about buying a house, since he understands now that won't be happening for a bit.

He's still incredibly foolish with his own money, but he never tries to guilt me for my choices anymore.

Context is important. I do find that the majority of people who use the phrase are implying "... therefore you should give me your money and/or spend it on things that benefit me, particularly while I do nothing whatsoever in exchange to benefit you."

To which you could reply, "It seems money matters more to me than it does to you, so why don't you just give me some of yours?"

They never have any.

... and yet they never see that irony.  Years ago my SIL suggested to Mr.  AccountingTeacher that we jointly buy FIL's house to rescue him from a lifetime of financial foolishness.  I refused because I didn't want to effectively be in a joint venture with people who I knew could barely afford their own house, much less a second one, and I knew we would be left holding the proverbial bag. That's when I was first accused of only caring about money.

Mom thrives on constant guilt trips. Her entire family seems to think this normal, acceptable behaviour. I haven't figured out how to shut down this particular line of thought, but you're right, this is absolutely about power, control, being "the good child" etc. Nevermind that I'm in my 30s and moved out ages ago.

I'm currently working (getting paid overtime! To sit in my pjs infront of my work laptop!) and my SO's mother was horrified when she found out I'm working three weekends this month. I had shared the news as a good thing, because it is. Clearly I need to change my approach here. Anyone have any tips on how to politely talk around OT with suburban middle class folks? SO's family invite us out for things fairly frequently, so the fact that I'm working and can't go is going to be a recurring theme.

My other half works shifts and has a side hustle during weekends/holidays so he's often not there at family gatherings. My family have accepted this by now, but they still pester him every now and then about when he's going to get a "grown up job". He's in his 30s and happy in his current job and I can't imagine him working a 9-5 office job ever. He's just not the type. The downside is that often they don't even invite him anymore because "he's not going to go anyway". They seem to forget it's not by choice.

[faithless]

I'm currently working (getting paid overtime! To sit in my pjs infront of my work laptop!) and my SO's mother was horrified when she found out I'm working three weekends this month. I had shared the news as a good thing, because it is. Clearly I need to change my approach here. Anyone have any tips on how to politely talk around OT with suburban middle class folks? SO's family invite us out for things fairly frequently, so the fact that I'm working and can't go is going to be a recurring theme.

They'll get over it! If you're uncomfortable discussing it with them, just say if it comes up:
"I'm afraid I can't make that event, I'm working." Don't get drawn into it, it's none of their business how/why. You can add "I'm happy with the arrangement" if they start sympathising or asking questions.

Lots of middle class people wind up working weekends sometimes.
My husband is one of three brothers, and all three of the WAGS work some weekends, so all of my (solidly middle class) parents-in-law's daughter in/out laws do!

My SIL is upper middle class, and works weekends occasionally lecturing/writing exams/marking papers for a university (in addition to to her main career, on the same topic).

I'm working in a lower middle class career, occasionally there is overtime, and now I'm studying for a professional qualification at work as part of a promotion program, which means I'm often busy working/studying on weekends.

The youngest brother's girlfriend is in a creative (design) career and is sometimes out of the country for a week or so with work. She also has a creative side gig at conventions, craft fairs etc on busy weekends.

[Yanisimo]

This is about my friend. She and her husband are in a lot of debt. They have credit card debt, car loan debt, thousands in lawyer fees still unpaid...etc. They cannot afford the mortgage, and so the husband's family has been paying for their mortgage and monthly child support since the summer of 2018. They are apparently going to file the documents necessary to claim bankruptcy as soon as they can afford the trustee's $1,000 filing fee.

Despite their financial woes, they go out to eat (in nice, sit-in restaurants) every week. They went to Universal Orlando in December with their 3 kids, hired a professional photographer to take family Christmas photos, spent New Year's Eve in a fancy restaurant/bar located downtown in a high rise building overlooking the city fireworks show, and spent their 2 year anniversary in an even fancier restaurant. It seems their spending habits have not changed despite their high debt.

[Hula Hoop]

Yanisimo - I guess that's how they got into that pickle in the first place.  Some people never change.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

This is about my friend. She and her husband are in a lot of debt. They have credit card debt, car loan debt, thousands in lawyer fees still unpaid...etc. They cannot afford the mortgage, and so the husband's family has been paying for their mortgage and monthly child support since the summer of 2018. They are apparently going to file the documents necessary to claim bankruptcy as soon as they can afford the trustee's $1,000 filing fee.

Despite their financial woes, they go out to eat (in nice, sit-in restaurants) every week. They went to Universal Orlando in December with their 3 kids, hired a professional photographer to take family Christmas photos, spent New Year's Eve in a fancy restaurant/bar located downtown in a high rise building overlooking the city fireworks show, and spent their 2 year anniversary in an even fancier restaurant. It seems their spending habits have not changed despite their high debt.

Classic example of how money does not solve money problems.

[Cassie]

When the family members that are paying their bills find out they are spending like this it may very well ruin their relationships.

[AMandM]

I'm currently working (getting paid overtime! To sit in my pjs infront of my work laptop!) and my SO's mother was horrified when she found out I'm working three weekends this month. I had shared the news as a good thing, because it is. Clearly I need to change my approach here. Anyone have any tips on how to politely talk around OT with suburban middle class folks? SO's family invite us out for things fairly frequently, so the fact that I'm working and can't go is going to be a recurring theme.

Lots of middle-class jobs involved working on weekends, or working irregular hours, or working extra when there's a crunch. I would think you could simply say, "Sorry, I have work I have to do." When you don't have work, come to events and enjoy them so it's clear that your absences aren't due to avoiding the family.

[former player]

This is about my friend. She and her husband are in a lot of debt. They have credit card debt, car loan debt, thousands in lawyer fees still unpaid...etc. They cannot afford the mortgage, and so the husband's family has been paying for their mortgage and monthly child support since the summer of 2018. They are apparently going to file the documents necessary to claim bankruptcy as soon as they can afford the trustee's $1,000 filing fee.

Despite their financial woes, they go out to eat (in nice, sit-in restaurants) every week. They went to Universal Orlando in December with their 3 kids, hired a professional photographer to take family Christmas photos, spent New Year's Eve in a fancy restaurant/bar located downtown in a high rise building overlooking the city fireworks show, and spent their 2 year anniversary in an even fancier restaurant. It seems their spending habits have not changed despite their high debt.

Classic example of how money does not solve money problems.

Classic example of not being able to add 1 + 1.  I'm pretty sure Yanisimo's relations would deny any relationship between their debts and their discretionary spending - which to them probably isn't something they see as discretionary either.

[saguaro]

The downside is that often they don't even invite him anymore because "he's not going to go anyway". They seem to forget it's not by choice.

DH has run into this.   Since getting his current job nearly 8 years ago, his work schedule has required him to work on holidays when there are family (his side) gatherings.    They just don't understand that he has to work and take it personally when he declines.  So in recent years there's been no invitations from this part of the family not just for the events he hasn't been able to attend but for everything.

This has only been the case since taking the current job.  Now for 17 years prior to this job his schedule was such he was able to attend on holidays, no problem.  So by now they should know it's his job and he's not avoiding them but they insist on turning it into a big deal every time. 

[Bloop Bloop]

Unfortunately, my parents have been very unsupportive of my plans to retire early.

My Dad says - why would you want to retire by 45? You're a smart person [Dad might be biased], so you have been given talent for a reason. You have an obligation to keep working and help the world. If you retire at 45 you will waste your life." [Never mind that I might end up being more present for my own children and give them more guidance than my well-meaning but absent Dad gave me. Never mind that I have zero desire to help or save the world.]

My relatives say - "Oh, how cute your plan is. No doubt you will find it harder to retire than you think." [They don't understand that I don't intend to follow my colleagues' decisions to buy an outrageously expensive family home.]

Another friend said - "What about private schools for the kids?" [I couldn't persuade him that I am against private schools in principle, not to mention there is no convincing evidence that private schools are better for children.]

[Linea_Norway]

Unfortunately, my parents have been very unsupportive of my plans to retire early.

My Dad says - why would you want to retire by 45? You're a smart person [Dad might be biased], so you have been given talent for a reason. You have an obligation to keep working and help the world. If you retire at 45 you will waste your life." [Never mind that I might end up being more present for my own children and give them more guidance than my well-meaning but absent Dad gave me. Never mind that I have zero desire to help or save the world.]

My relatives say - "Oh, how cute your plan is. No doubt you will find it harder to retire than you think." [They don't understand that I don't intend to follow my colleagues' decisions to buy an outrageously expensive family home.]

Another friend said - "What about private schools for the kids?" [I couldn't persuade him that I am against private schools in principle, not to mention there is no convincing evidence that private schools are better for children.]

That is a petty. Parental support would have been nice. I am sure you will be a better dad by being more present for your children.

This might also be a reason to not be too open about FIRE to relatives. By being open, they might get the wrong impression that you are mega rich and should be handing out money to them. Or that all your time might be used to take care of the parents.

I told my FIL about our plans, who FIREd himself some decades ago. He thinks it is great that we are following that path. He also talked about that he didn't regret it at all. But we heard that he worked much longer than we had known. We are living abroad and don't know all that happens if they don't talk about it.
I haven't dared to tell my mother about it, though. She might be more full of prejudices, although I am not sure about it. And she tends to gossip a lot about he to everyone she meets. My mother did also retire early herself, at 62 or so, in an official program that replaces elderly employees by younger ones and giving the pensioners extra compensation for that.

[kelvin]

Thanks @faithless @Imma. Part of the issue is that Ottawa is a government town. The vast majority of people here work for the Federal Government of Canada, which means they have an amazing union and some of the best benefits in the country. There's an attitude here that OT is a travesty, performed by American wage-slaves. My good old-fashioned "protestant work ethic" is raising a lot of eyebrows.

It's important to me to "pass" as "normal", while actually having the freedom to do as I like. I'm not going to change how much money I spend or how I spend my time, but I want to float through the conversation without starting an argument.

[iris lily]

I actually like the look of brick houses that are painted and then the paint begins to slowly fade away in some places and so the house is partly the painted color and partly brick.  It works particularly well whitewashed, like this:



Or this



There's no maintenance as far as I'm aware.  You just let the house slowly fade from white to brick color over time.

I used to like that too, and then I moved to an historic district and learned why painting masonry is bad. Paint forms a layer over the brick that traps moisture, and the whole thing promotes faster breakdown of materials.

We had a tiny charming 1880’s cottage with a layer of paint on the brick front and we paid big bucks to have that paint carefully removed. It was a tiny cottage owned by poor people, and the poor man’s solution to tuckpointing here has been to slap on a layer of paint. *shudder.*

For the era of house you show in the first picture it doesnt really matter because it is not historically significant and it IS cute as a bug as is.

But for Victorian age brick and earlier, it is a travesty to paint it.

[Linea_Norway]

My parents live about 10 mins from a university. My mother works at the university, and my brother gets free tuition.

My brother goes to this university.

My brother also works about 10 mins from my parents house - sweet deal he can basically go in when he has time and make good money.

Here is the crazy part. My brother lived for about 2 school years in an apartment with a bunch of other guys about 10 mins on the other side of the university. Paying for everything - house, food etc. This means that pretty much his entire income from his job was spent on his bills. 

He has finally "run out of money" and moved back in with my parents. I can only imagine how rich he would be if he had just stayed home, did school and worked. Honestly he could have a down payment for a house by now.

I get your brother completely. When I was old enough, I really wanted to move out of the house, as my mother doesn't treat me as an adult, but rather as a child, in my circumstances. At that time, I also used up all the money I earned. At a given time, I also had to move back to my parent's home, I don't remember why. But I moved out again as soon as I could.

[saguaro]

My parents live about 10 mins from a university. My mother works at the university, and my brother gets free tuition.

My brother goes to this university.

My brother also works about 10 mins from my parents house - sweet deal he can basically go in when he has time and make good money.

Here is the crazy part. My brother lived for about 2 school years in an apartment with a bunch of other guys about 10 mins on the other side of the university. Paying for everything - house, food etc. This means that pretty much his entire income from his job was spent on his bills. 

He has finally "run out of money" and moved back in with my parents. I can only imagine how rich he would be if he had just stayed home, did school and worked. Honestly he could have a down payment for a house by now.

I lived about 15 minutes from the university I attended.  I lived at home, commuted to school, held a job that was just enough to pay for tuition and fees and have a little left over.   Living at home, as much as I wanted to move out at the time, just made a lot of sense as room and board would have definitely put me in debt.  I knew other students who did the same thing. 

However, it was interesting how the university put pressure on students to move on campus even on those who lived close to home like me.  Some students, like my boyfriend at the time did this.  However, I calculated that even if I didn't get out with savings due to rising tuition every year, I could at least get out with no or minimal debt, which would make it easier for me to move out after college.

[dcheesi]

My parents live about 10 mins from a university. My mother works at the university, and my brother gets free tuition.

My brother goes to this university.

My brother also works about 10 mins from my parents house - sweet deal he can basically go in when he has time and make good money.

Here is the crazy part. My brother lived for about 2 school years in an apartment with a bunch of other guys about 10 mins on the other side of the university. Paying for everything - house, food etc. This means that pretty much his entire income from his job was spent on his bills. 

He has finally "run out of money" and moved back in with my parents. I can only imagine how rich he would be if he had just stayed home, did school and worked. Honestly he could have a down payment for a house by now.

I lived about 15 minutes from the university I attended.  I lived at home, commuted to school, held a job that was just enough to pay for tuition and fees and have a little left over.   Living at home, as much as I wanted to move out at the time, just made a lot of sense as room and board would have definitely put me in debt.  I knew other students who did the same thing. 

However, it was interesting how the university put pressure on students to move on campus even on those who lived close to home like me.  Some students, like my boyfriend at the time did this.  However, I calculated that even if I didn't get out with savings due to rising tuition every year, I could at least get out with no or minimal debt, which would make it easier for me to move out after college.

My university actually required students to live on-campus the first year of undergrad. I lived close enough to commute by car, but my parents understood the importance of independence during that time and allowed me to continue living in the dorms after that. Fortunately the money never ran out for me, and overall I think it was a good thing. I kind of had the best of both worlds; my own space and life on campus, but still able to go home on weekends for free meals and laundry :)

[Imma]

My parents live about 10 mins from a university. My mother works at the university, and my brother gets free tuition.

My brother goes to this university.

My brother also works about 10 mins from my parents house - sweet deal he can basically go in when he has time and make good money.

Here is the crazy part. My brother lived for about 2 school years in an apartment with a bunch of other guys about 10 mins on the other side of the university. Paying for everything - house, food etc. This means that pretty much his entire income from his job was spent on his bills. 

He has finally "run out of money" and moved back in with my parents. I can only imagine how rich he would be if he had just stayed home, did school and worked. Honestly he could have a down payment for a house by now.

I lived about 15 minutes from the university I attended.  I lived at home, commuted to school, held a job that was just enough to pay for tuition and fees and have a little left over.   Living at home, as much as I wanted to move out at the time, just made a lot of sense as room and board would have definitely put me in debt.  I knew other students who did the same thing. 

However, it was interesting how the university put pressure on students to move on campus even on those who lived close to home like me.  Some students, like my boyfriend at the time did this.  However, I calculated that even if I didn't get out with savings due to rising tuition every year, I could at least get out with no or minimal debt, which would make it easier for me to move out after college.

My university actually required students to live on-campus the first year of undergrad. I lived close enough to commute by car, but my parents understood the importance of independence during that time and allowed me to continue living in the dorms after that. Fortunately the money never ran out for me, and overall I think it was a good thing. I kind of had the best of both worlds; my own space and life on campus, but still able to go home on weekends for free meals and laundry :)

I didn't want to get into debt, so instead I quit fulltime education pretty early on, got a job and continued to study parttime while living away from my parents. In my case, continuing to live with my parents was not an option at all, I come from a complicated family and it just wasn't possible.

I didn't get into debt, was able to become a homeowner pretty young and I'm doing a Master's now while working a job. Looking back, I should probably have taken on the loan and continue fulltime education - I would have graduated earlier and would have started making proper money earlier on. On the other hand, I don't regret being debt averse as a young adult. It's a good habit to avoid debt when possible and get used to living a simple life. Many students take on more debt than they really need to pay for tuition etc and spend it on things that aren't necessities. Working and saving also allowed me to buy a house at 24, right before a huge property boom in my country. Buying and renting is extremely expensive now. After about a decade's experience as an adult, I'm confident enough to take on loans for tuition for my Master's, but only because it's a very low interest loan from the government that I only have to pay back when my income is more than a certain amount.

I would encourage everyone to move out somewhere between the ages of 18 and 22, except if you need to get into high interest debt to achieve it. I do think living independently is good for you and teaches life skills. It's also a good lesson to know you can live through certain circumstances and end up allright. I know that in the worst case scenario, I can absolutely live on a €100/month grocery budget and still eat relatively healthy, I can live with roommates, I can do my laundry by hand in the bath tub, I can walk to work every day. Of course I want to avoid it happening in the future, but I know I can do it and that's a good thing to know.

[dignam]

RE: living on your own vs. at parents: I went to a very big public university that was about 20-25 minutes from my parents' place.  I get where the kid was coming from who would have been 10 minutes from school at his parents.  Granted you don't go to college just for the "college experience" (well, some do I guess), but I feel that it is really important.  Learning to live with others that aren't your family, learning how to have a budget, etc. Parking is an absolute nightmare around the university here, so it is generally stated that you should live on or very close to campus so you can walk, which is what I did.

[economista]

I lived at home my first year of college and then in an off campus apartment after that but I understand the value in living on campus. I study social mobility and education and there are a TON of studies that show for low income and mediocre students in particular, living on campus is correlated with higher grades and more positive outcomes. It is one of the reasons why 4 year universities have much higher graduation rates than community colleges, even when you control for the income level of the students and their families. There is a bit of a peer-pressure effect to study, and when you stay on campus and you are living and socializing with people who are going to classes and doing their homework. When you live off campus you lose that effect, particularly if you are the only one of your friends who is in school.

That being said, if you are an outlier you will likely do well regardless (or fail regardless), but for the majority of students there is real value to living on campus, even if it costs more.

[Cassie]

I think going away to college is great if you can afford it. We had to live at home and my kids had to also. Everyone got degrees.

[faithless]

My parents always said they would pay for my undergraduate studies (UK, fees were £2k pa at this time, now £9k). I am thankful in retrospect that I missed my first choice uni by one grade (high entry grade requirements), as if I'd gone there I would have lived at home - an hour by public transport. My second choice was 2 hours by public transport, and so I lived in shared houses off campus (parents paid my rent and bills provided I got the grades).

I had a very different experience than I would have had if I'd lived at home, and think I grew up a lot faster because of it.

[ysette9]

I lived at home my first year of college and then in an off campus apartment after that but I understand the value in living on campus. I study social mobility and education and there are a TON of studies that show for low income and mediocre students in particular, living on campus is correlated with higher grades and more positive outcomes. It is one of the reasons why 4 year universities have much higher graduation rates than community colleges, even when you control for the income level of the students and their families. There is a bit of a peer-pressure effect to study, and when you stay on campus and you are living and socializing with people who are going to classes and doing their homework. When you live off campus you lose that effect, particularly if you are the only one of your friends who is in school.

That being said, if you are an outlier you will likely do well regardless (or fail regardless), but for the majority of students there is real value to living on campus, even if it costs more.

Thank you for sharing. That is really interesting and I had no idea. Now that you explain the positive peer pressure effect it makes sense.

[Nicholas Carter]

Here is another wrinkle to that: The jobs I got that I most needed, the ride-sharing, tool-sharing, and home-sharing solutions that let me save money when I needed to most, all had their origin in the people that I met in college, friends I saw almost every day for four years because we were basically neighbors. My spouse has basically none of those connections because when I graduated and moved closer to my work they (a freshman when I was a senior) moved off campus to the edge of town with me. As a consequence they made many fewer friends period, and almost none of them have kept in touch.

[alienbogey]

I could write a long essay but instead I'll give the cliff notes.

Son (young 20's, no debt, savings, paid cash for used car) marries woman with issues but he loves her.  His call.  He has a strange inability to say no to her and she introduces him to spending.  It's like watching someone go from a gateway drug to harder stuff as they buy all kinds of crap including starting a collection of old video games.  He's in the service and they have a new child, he's getting out in a few weeks without a solid job lined up, AND THEY BUY A NEW CAR.

DIL quote #1:  "We bought it now because we know that no one will finance us once we get out of the military in two weeks."

Evil Manipulative Mother In Law (EMMIL) had visited for the birth of the child (staying in our home for 3 weeks) and now she begins an intensive campaign of manipulative emotional hostage taking along with outright factual lies to get the young family to move across the country to be closer to her.  It works, and they spend a crap ton of money (financed by selling son's paid-for car) to move to where education and job prospect pies-in-the-sky have been promised by EMMIL.  More poor financial decisions on housing (a too big house is rented), schooling (GI Bill tuition wasted), training for non-existent job prospects (lies by both PIL), etc. etc. 

Throughout this debacle we have offered our opinions when asked, sometimes not when asked, and then shut our mouths and watched the train wreck.  DIL has consistently ignored us and instead acted on her mother's advice.

Young family finally clues in about EMMIL and moves 5 states away, both taking low paying jobs but getting away from the poison. 

DIL quote #2:  "I guess we shouldn't have been taking financial advice from people [her parents] who have been bankrupt four times." 

 [And ignoring advice from her parents in law, us, who paid for college for kids with no loans required, have paid off their mortgage, have zero debt of any kind, and can retire any time they please.]

They finally start listening to us and opening their financial books.  Tons of debt (half student debt brought into the marriage), a monthly cash flow of -$500 and no way to fix that, behind on rent, utilities, etc.  They'll be living under an overpass in 6 months.

We bail them out enough to bring them home and get them into a living situation.  Son gets job and starts looking for a better one.  DIL re-passes her state boards and starts working part time.  They start listening to us on money.  A decision is made to not declare bankruptcy.  They work out repayment plans with creditors.  Credit cards save one are paid off and they're working on the last one.

And, lo & behold, it's DIL who has taken charge of the family finances and is doing all this.  There have been a few relapses (a $200 Christmas gift for hubby) but, by and large, she's shopping at thrift stores, clipping coupons, accumulating a small emergency fund, etc. etc.

DIL quote #3:  "I think in a few years we'll be able to start saving for a down payment."

[Just Joe]

Hey that's a really hopeful turn around!

[AMandM]

Oh, alienbogey, how refreshing to read about relatives who go from not getting it to getting it!  Thank you!

[partgypsy]

Wow, I want to start using this in my sig line:


"I guess we shouldn't have been taking financial advice from people who have been bankrupt four times"

[accountingteacher]

Wow, I want to start using this in my sig line:


"I guess we shouldn't have been taking financial advice from people who have been bankrupt four times"

It seems so obvious to any of us who would even be reading this board, but it's not if you haven't grown up that way.  About a year into my marriage, near my wit's end with the financial habits my husband inherited from his family, I screamed at him, "Do you want to end up like your parents or like mine?"  To me it was a rhetorical question.  To him it was the first time he realized he had a choice.

[SwordGuy]

Wow, I want to start using this in my sig line:


"I guess we shouldn't have been taking financial advice from people who have been bankrupt four times"

It seems so obvious to any of us who would even be reading this board, but it's not if you haven't grown up that way.  About a year into my marriage, near my wit's end with the financial habits my husband inherited from his family, I screamed at him, "Do you want to end up like your parents or like mine?"  To me it was a rhetorical question.  To him it was the first time he realized he had a choice.

It's also easier for people to accept advice they want to hear and advice that requires so sacrifice on their part.

[Linea_Norway]

We bail them out enough to bring them home and get them into a living situation.  Son gets job and starts looking for a better one.  DIL re-passes her state boards and starts working part time.  They start listening to us on money.  A decision is made to not declare bankruptcy.  They work out repayment plans with creditors.  Credit cards save one are paid off and they're working on the last one.

It is nice of you to have bailed them out. I guess you did it to save your son from continuing this trainwreck existence. Normally, bailing out relatives who are bad with money, means throwing money into a black hole. But it looks like your son is trying to make a decent living and improving his life. And even DIL has seen the light. So it was a good investment to help them.

[zolotiyeruki]

We bail them out enough to bring them home and get them into a living situation.  Son gets job and starts looking for a better one.  DIL re-passes her state boards and starts working part time.  They start listening to us on money.  A decision is made to not declare bankruptcy.  They work out repayment plans with creditors.  Credit cards save one are paid off and they're working on the last one.

It is nice of you to have bailed them out. I guess you did it to save your son from continuing this trainwreck existence. Normally, bailing out relatives who are bad with money, means throwing money into a black hole. But it looks like your son is trying to make a decent living and improving his life. And even DIL has seen the light. So it was a good investment to help them.

I think the key difference here is that before alienbogey bailed them out, DS and DIL showed that they were willing to work to make the necessary changes, i.e. they moved away from the bad influence and were trying to right the ship.  Most of the good-money-after-bad stories seem to come from situations where the recipient has shown no desire to improve their situation.

[SwordGuy]

We bail them out enough to bring them home and get them into a living situation.  Son gets job and starts looking for a better one.  DIL re-passes her state boards and starts working part time.  They start listening to us on money.  A decision is made to not declare bankruptcy.  They work out repayment plans with creditors.  Credit cards save one are paid off and they're working on the last one.

It is nice of you to have bailed them out. I guess you did it to save your son from continuing this trainwreck existence. Normally, bailing out relatives who are bad with money, means throwing money into a black hole. But it looks like your son is trying to make a decent living and improving his life. And even DIL has seen the light. So it was a good investment to help them.

I think the key difference here is that before alienbogey bailed them out, DS and DIL showed that they were willing to work to make the necessary changes, i.e. they moved away from the bad influence and were trying to right the ship.  Most of the good-money-after-bad stories seem to come from situations where the recipient has shown no desire to improve their situation.

Exactly!!   Never help people more than they are wiling to help themselves.

[gillstone]

I don't have words - my 62 year old disabled father with no income besides the trust he lives off of has decided to buy a new car.  This wouldn't bother me if he wasn't skipping insulin shots to save money or if he wasn't at risk of having his license pulled because he can't turn his head to see his mirrors.

[Freedomin5]

I don't have words - my 62 year old disabled father with no income besides the trust he lives off of has decided to buy a new car.  This wouldn't bother me if he wasn't skipping insulin shots to save money or if he wasn't at risk of having his license pulled because he can't turn his head to see his mirrors.

That's sad....and dangerous.

[remizidae]

I don't have words - my 62 year old disabled father with no income besides the trust he lives off of has decided to buy a new car.  This wouldn't bother me if he wasn't skipping insulin shots to save money or if he wasn't at risk of having his license pulled because he can't turn his head to see his mirrors.

That's sad....and dangerous.

So Gillstone, you're going to report him to the DMV, right? It's not okay to let him keep driving if you know he's a danger to others.

[LadyMuMu]

Gillstone. Since he's disabled, can you get him into an adaptive therapy clinic for a driving assessment. Something like this one: https://www.chihealth.com/driver-rehabilitation-program That's what we did for my MIL when it was clear her cognitive decline was adversely affecting her driving. In her case, her primary care physician said she had "all" of her over 80 patients go for an assessment to determine what they needed to do to remain safe on the road as they age.

It was in a clinic and they do driving simulations, cognitive speed assessments, and a road test.

Well, MIL flunked so spectacularly (took 62 seconds to respond to stimula that should take 6 for example) that it was clear to all of us that her driving at all was no longer an option.  It was so helpful to have a medical report with a clear rubric that showed that she shouldn't be driving.

It sounds like money may be an issue in your case, but honestly that was the best $250 out of pocket (insurance didn't cover it) we ever spent.

[seachange]

Throwaway since I talk about family...

My SO inherited $1.5m through his late father. His sibling received the same amount, but she is flying through it in a breathtaking fashion. We're talking quitting work for near-constant travel ($40k spent easily, $75k in lost wages), designer handbags ($8k that I've noticed), big game hunting trips ($20k), home renovations ($50k), a boat ($40k), a Range Rover ($80k), plastic surgery, a McMansion -- all in less than two years.

Still, the in-laws still find a way to surprise me. Recently, they laughed about forgetting a country club membership fee* for a city in which they no longer lived. They were paying $700/mo for years without noticing it. Mind-blowing that they could chuckle about $18k lost with nothing to show for it.

It sounds like I'm joking. I wish I were.


* OK, not exactly a country club membership fee but not far off either.