Relatives who just don't get it

[cripzychiken]

Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

Where I live the property taxes can easily be $30,000 a year on a million dollar house. So that brings your spending down to $7,000. Figure two car payments at $1,000 a month each, we're down to $6,000 twice a month. $4,000 for the private schools, so we're down to $4,000 twice a month. Add in the food, landscaping on the gigantic house, the likely ridiculous cable and internet and cell phone bills, and the heating and cooling of the gigantic house... Pretty easy to see where it goes.

yep.  But still the money shot top line is crazy. And depending on the city it might cost 30$/day to park each car at the office thats almost 700$ right there!!!!

weekly maid service, weekly lawn service, after school activities for kids, nanny/baby sitter to watch the kids on the weekends for date night to a top tier steak house, private tutor for each kid..... I can easily 'spend' $400k/yr on stuff that people would think is "normal".

[MgoSam]

Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

Where I live the property taxes can easily be $30,000 a year on a million dollar house. So that brings your spending down to $7,000. Figure two car payments at $1,000 a month each, we're down to $6,000 twice a month. $4,000 for the private schools, so we're down to $4,000 twice a month. Add in the food, landscaping on the gigantic house, the likely ridiculous cable and internet and cell phone bills, and the heating and cooling of the gigantic house... Pretty easy to see where it goes.

yep.  But still the money shot top line is crazy. And depending on the city it might cost 30$/day to park each car at the office thats almost 700$ right there!!!!

weekly maid service, weekly lawn service, after school activities for kids, nanny/baby sitter to watch the kids on the weekends for date night to a top tier steak house, private tutor for each kid..... I can easily 'spend' $400k/yr on stuff that people would think is "normal".

Yeah, I have an uncle that makes a ton of money (private doctor and has two practices). He's 70ish and still working and I don't think it's because he enjoys it.

[countdown]

Yup. $3k/mth rent, plus ft nanny, plus preschool for 2 kids, plus sitter, plus housekeeper 2x/mth, plus lawn service, plus pest control, plus two cars, plus eating out most meals, plus designer clothes for all four and lots of them, plus season Disney passes and regular trips to the bippity bippity boutique, plus massages, and weekends, and salons, and Mani/pedis, and car detailing. It's the ultimate in outsourcing and I don't think that either my sis or bil are happy. I've sent links and talked about FI and savings but so far fell on fallow ground.

[pbkmaine]

When I was a financial planner, I used to see this all the time. Couples with extraordinary incomes fighting about money and unable to give up a single luxury. I finally could not take it any longer and shifted careers to retirement plan consulting instead.

[cripzychiken]

When I was a financial planner, I used to see this all the time. Couples with extraordinary incomes fighting about money and unable to give up a single luxury. I finally could not take it any longer and shifted careers to retirement plan consulting instead.

completely off topic - but do you notice a difference in people who want "financial planning" vs "Retirement consulting".  It seems to me that the 2 jobs are probably 85% the same (investment choices/mixes, saving/spending ratios, long term planning), but by just changing the name of the service you are targeting a completely different demographic.

[pbkmaine]

My clients are no longer individuals. They are organizations that offer retirement plans. As one of my colleagues said: "Companies don't call you at 9pm because they are worried about their Microsoft stock." Moving from individuals to companies made a huge positive improvement in the quality of my life.

[NoraLenderbee]

Yup. $3k/mth rent, plus ft nanny, plus preschool for 2 kids, plus sitter, plus housekeeper 2x/mth, plus lawn service, plus pest control, plus two cars, plus eating out most meals, plus designer clothes for all four and lots of them, plus season Disney passes and regular trips to the bippity bippity boutique, plus massages, and weekends, and salons, and Mani/pedis, and car detailing. It's the ultimate in outsourcing and I don't think that either my sis or bil are happy. I've sent links and talked about FI and savings but so far fell on fallow ground.

Fulltime nanny *and* a baby-sitter? *And* preschool? What do they nanny and sitter do while the kids are in school--go to the racetrack?

[LeRainDrop]

Yup. $3k/mth rent, plus ft nanny, plus preschool for 2 kids, plus sitter, plus housekeeper 2x/mth, plus lawn service, plus pest control, plus two cars, plus eating out most meals, plus designer clothes for all four and lots of them, plus season Disney passes and regular trips to the bippity bippity boutique, plus massages, and weekends, and salons, and Mani/pedis, and car detailing. It's the ultimate in outsourcing and I don't think that either my sis or bil are happy. I've sent links and talked about FI and savings but so far fell on fallow ground.

Fulltime nanny *and* a baby-sitter? *And* preschool? What do they nanny and sitter do while the kids are in school--go to the racetrack?

I'm guessing the baby-sitter isn't full-time.  My mom is a nanny for two kids (4 yrs boy, 2 yrs girl) for 55 hours per week.  Starting this week, the older has three days of a few hours of pre-school, and the younger has I think two days of a couple hours pre-school.  Yet my mom barely has 15 minutes to sit down per day because there is always cleaning, dishes, laundry, shuttling the kids around, library, eating, etc.  I honestly don't know how my mom has the stamina for this, but she makes it work!  (Kids' parents are both doctors.  The dad bought the obligatory Mercedes after finishing residency, and they eat a lot of take-out dinners.  They are going to Disney World for a week in November.)

[Jupiter]

I suck at short posts so just read the second last paragraph ;)

I've always been into the MMM way since I started working at 18 without even knowing about this site. While growing up my parents kept buying investment properties and buying shares to build a passive income (giving me inspiration to do so myself). Both my parents went to UNI for years. My dad was a few months away from finishing the course then they said "the whole thing has changed you have to study all over again with the new standards" or whatever... From that day he has avoided UNI and education and has been doing odd jobs. My mum finished her course and was qualified to be a psychiatrist then gave birth the next day and that was it, never used her qualification for anything and stopped being a full time mum when her first child was 1 to do odd jobs. She soon realised she hated babies because they prevented her from working to earn money and me (her first child) was taken away from her for a month due to her threats to kill me so that I would stop crying. Don't worry though, she treated me much better as I grew up and was ok to share the story with me when I was a teenager.

They both now work 7 days a week doing odd jobs for over 10 hours a day. I was left by myself at home most of my childhood, grew up on my computer, got into programming and developed a few games gaining quite a fan base. I made forums and instantly gained hundreds of fan "friends" via skype. It got to the point where managing the forums took more time up than developing my games. I never sold the games, they were freeware. I've got this thing about disliking working for money. I'd prefer to see money roll in and work on what I want to work on without charging a cent. I completely gave up on development due to no time. I work a full time job now as well as some other jobs including babysitting and youtube which aren't so bad at all but I'm sick of editing videos and have a fanbase of almost 50K in subscribers so I can't let them down plus the income pays the rent so I can put all my money from my fulltime job into investments. I've gotten myself into the trap again of getting stuck with something I get sick off...

Anyway my parents hate work. My dad keeps going to the physio to fix up his bad back from his work... They are never home to enjoy their 2 million dollar beachside home (even after moving out of home I visit them at 8pm - 9pm on sundays when they finish work just for a chat). I remember my mum saying she never has time to just rest, she wishes she didn't have to work anymore so she could do things she wanted and get things done around the house. When I had just started working I heard her crying with my dad stating that she wanted me, my brothers and sisters, her and him to die in a car crash because there is no joy in this world. She said that way we will all die together. They are quite rich too (but want me to earn my own money through my own hands so didn't give me anything which I'm happy with anyway as I want to achieve financial freedom myself).

JUST READ THIS IF YOU ARE SHORT ON TIME
In a recent conversion with them I showed them a video of mr money moustache on Youtube and their reaction shattered me. They were like "that's what we already do" (they honestly do save/invest 70% of the $100,000 combined they earn each year previously putting it all towards investment properties. They sold all of em to get their 2 million dollar dream home). They were like yea we could sell this place and live in a place a quarter of the price, not work again and live off rent/interest for the rest of our lives but we wouldn't live as well. Then they started going on about expenses such as "my kids would never have been able to go to a private school costing 10K per year, we wouldn't have enough for it. We wouldn't be living in a lovely place now would we? These things cost money Sam!". I then tried to convince them that I would have been happier in a cheaper house growing up with my parents rather than growing up alone at home everyday with parents that bought me pc hardware to make up for not spending time with me. One of em (guess who) gave me the filthiest look you could imagine and just said "I can't believe after all the things we bought you as a child to make you happy, after sending you to a private school you would say such a terrible thing to us". I was then ordered to leave and I doubt our Sunday 8pm visits will continue.

It truly appears that some people can't wake up from the world... They aren't happy yet they continue their current lifestyle. Their dream home in the past 5 years has cost them over $400,000 to maintain mostly due to renovations to modernize from it's original 1950's state. I mean seriously! I can't change em but I won't make the same mistake as them. I'm retiring at 30 so I can be free from structured work. Once I'm retired I'll be an indie game developer working on games I want my way and I won't charge a cent for them. I'll go for walks, care for foster children and through making a difference in their life make myself happy to. I'll live in a 600K property and I'll be happy to be free.

[Cookie78]

I suck at short posts so just read the second last paragraph ;)

I've always been into the MMM way since I started working at 18 without even knowing about this site. While growing up my parents kept buying investment properties and buying shares to build a passive income (giving me inspiration to do so myself). Both my parents went to UNI for years. My dad was a few months away from finishing the course then they said "the whole thing has changed you have to study all over again with the new standards" or whatever... From that day he has avoided UNI and education and has been doing odd jobs. My mum finished her course and was qualified to be a psychiatrist then gave birth the next day and that was it, never used her qualification for anything and stopped being a full time mum when her first child was 1 to do odd jobs. She soon realised she hated babies because they prevented her from working to earn money and me (her first child) was taken away from her for a month due to her threats to kill me so that I would stop crying. Don't worry though, she treated me much better as I grew up and was ok to share the story with me when I was a teenager.

They both now work 7 days a week doing odd jobs for over 10 hours a day. I was left by myself at home most of my childhood, grew up on my computer, got into programming and developed a few games gaining quite a fan base. I made forums and instantly gained hundreds of fan "friends" via skype. It got to the point where managing the forums took more time up than developing my games. I never sold the games, they were freeware. I've got this thing about disliking working for money. I'd prefer to see money roll in and work on what I want to work on without charging a cent. I completely gave up on development due to no time. I work a full time job now as well as some other jobs including babysitting and youtube which aren't so bad at all but I'm sick of editing videos and have a fanbase of almost 50K in subscribers so I can't let them down plus the income pays the rent so I can put all my money from my fulltime job into investments. I've gotten myself into the trap again of getting stuck with something I get sick off...

Anyway my parents hate work. My dad keeps going to the physio to fix up his bad back from his work... They are never home to enjoy their 2 million dollar beachside home (even after moving out of home I visit them at 8pm - 9pm on sundays when they finish work just for a chat). I remember my mum saying she never has time to just rest, she wishes she didn't have to work anymore so she could do things she wanted and get things done around the house. When I had just started working I heard her crying with my dad stating that she wanted me, my brothers and sisters, her and him to die in a car crash because there is no joy in this world. She said that way we will all die together. They are quite rich too (but want me to earn my own money through my own hands so didn't give me anything which I'm happy with anyway as I want to achieve financial freedom myself).

JUST READ THIS IF YOU ARE SHORT ON TIME
In a recent conversion with them I showed them a video of mr money moustache on Youtube and their reaction shattered me. They were like "that's what we already do" (they honestly do save/invest 70% of the $100,000 combined they earn each year previously putting it all towards investment properties. They sold all of em to get their 2 million dollar dream home). They were like yea we could sell this place and live in a place a quarter of the price, not work again and live off rent/interest for the rest of our lives but we wouldn't live as well. Then they started going on about expenses such as "my kids would never have been able to go to a private school costing 10K per year, we wouldn't have enough for it. We wouldn't be living in a lovely place now would we? These things cost money Sam!". I then tried to convince them that I would have been happier in a cheaper house growing up with my parents rather than growing up alone at home everyday with parents that bought me pc hardware to make up for not spending time with me. One of em (guess who) gave me the filthiest look you could imagine and just said "I can't believe after all the things we bought you as a child to make you happy, after sending you to a private school you would say such a terrible thing to us". I was then ordered to leave and I doubt our Sunday 8pm visits will continue.

It truly appears that some people can't wake up from the world... They aren't happy yet they continue their current lifestyle. Their dream home in the past 5 years has cost them over $400,000 to maintain mostly due to renovations to modernize from it's original 1950's state. I mean seriously! I can't change em but I won't make the same mistake as them. I'm retiring at 30 so I can be free from structured work. Once I'm retired I'll be an indie game developer working on games I want my way and I won't charge a cent for them. I'll go for walks, care for foster children and through making a difference in their life make myself happy to. I'll live in a 600K property and I'll be happy to be free.

Wow. That's so sad for both you and for them.
/Hugs
All of the /hugs

[Jupiter]

Thanks for the hugs, generally people don't read my wall of text comments. It's ok though, I handled my upbringing and I handled 100x worse at work which I won't go into. What you live becomes your neutral standard. I may have grown up in a lonely and at times depressing environment but because I didn't experience any better it's ok. If I grew up with an extremely loving family then had to swap over to this then that would be suffering... If I grew up on the streets of Africa completely homeless then swapping over to my childhood life would be a beautiful fantasy. Same goes for the mmm way. Start living it on day 1 and that initial sacrifice of not spending your entire paycheck each month is non-existent.

A lot of my work "mates" notice I never go on holidays as I'm too busy saving. They always say "Money doesn't buy happiness". My reply to that is "yes, money doesn't buy happiness, it buys freedom, and through freedom you experience happiness". One of em likes to save up for an 80K car every 5 years. I'd rather own a $10,000 car than a $80,000 car any day. I'd like to leave that person with my famous (ok not really famous) quote:

"Work isn't worth the reward"
- Sam/Jupiter 2015

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Thanks for the hugs, generally people don't read my wall of text comments. It's ok though, I handled my upbringing and I handled 100x worse at work which I won't go into. What you live becomes your neutral standard. I may have grown up in a lonely and at times depressing environment but because I didn't experience any better it's ok. If I grew up with an extremely loving family then had to swap over to this then that would be suffering... If I grew up on the streets of Africa completely homeless then swapping over to my childhood life would be a beautiful fantasy. Same goes for the mmm way. Start living it on day 1 and that initial sacrifice of not spending your entire paycheck each month is non-existent.

Has your mother gotten mental health help? It really sounds like she could use it.

[Jupiter]

Thanks for the hugs, generally people don't read my wall of text comments. It's ok though, I handled my upbringing and I handled 100x worse at work which I won't go into. What you live becomes your neutral standard. I may have grown up in a lonely and at times depressing environment but because I didn't experience any better it's ok. If I grew up with an extremely loving family then had to swap over to this then that would be suffering... If I grew up on the streets of Africa completely homeless then swapping over to my childhood life would be a beautiful fantasy. Same goes for the mmm way. Start living it on day 1 and that initial sacrifice of not spending your entire paycheck each month is non-existent.

Has your mother gotten mental health help? It really sounds like she could use it.

After being taken away from my mother for a month when I was a few months old a lady from child services stayed with her to watch her interactions with me on a weekly basis for a few months. Babies can put a lot of stress on mothers, I understand, it's fine and even if I was in spirit right now I'd still forgive her (I'm not religious though). There are a lot of evil people in this world and every moment I'm alive I try my best to pour as much good into it through my interactions with others. Lack of money prevents me from doing this effectively but through financial freedom I'll make great differences to the lives of many foster children. I'm called a doormat by many but I'd rather be a doormat than the murderer that tramples on it as he flees the crime scene.

[zephyr911]

A lot of my work "mates" notice I never go on holidays as I'm too busy saving. They always say "Money doesn't buy happiness". My reply to that is "yes, money doesn't buy happiness, it buys freedom, and through freedom you experience happiness".

I was just working on a concise, catchy version of something like that last week. Very similar.

One of em likes to save up for an 80K car every 5 years.

If my heart's desire right now were an $80K car, and I had the discipline to save up cash for it, I'd buy $400K worth of rentals and finance the car at net zero total cash flow (totally feasible with the right terms). 5-7 years from now the car is paid off, I've built five figures in rental equity, and returns are still rising as loans are amortized.

Having your cake and eating it too is really not as hard as people think.

[debbie does duncan]

My FIL 's sister  Carol and her husband Bob.
I am NOT related to these people at all.
Carol is to retire in 5-6 yrs. Bob is to retire in 8-10 yrs.Both work in GTA.
 Just sold their pd for house Downtown TO  for.......  their  retirement home,  1 hr outside TO.
 Since they are both still working ,  they have decided to live in the old  neighbourhood ,
 as they know it so well , in a rented condo.
 But wait.....there is more.....since they have so much stuff they are also renting the condo next to the first condo so they can have their stuff close by.
Carol and Bob are now living and  working on their retirement home on weekends and commuting Sunday nites to the condos to get the jump on rush hr traffic.
And she is the smart one.

[mtn]

My FIL 's sister  Carol and her husband Bob.
I am NOT related to these people at all.
Carol is to retire in 5-6 yrs. Bob is to retire in 8-10 yrs.Both work in GTA.
 Just sold their pd for house Downtown TO  for.......  their  retirement home,  1 hr outside TO.
 Since they are both still working ,  they have decided to live in the old  neighbourhood ,
 as they know it so well , in a rented condo.
 But wait.....there is more.....since they have so much stuff they are also renting the condo next to the first condo so they can have their stuff close by.
Carol and Bob are now living and  working on their retirement home on weekends and commuting Sunday nites to the condos to get the jump on rush hr traffic.
And she is the smart one.

Didn't sound so horrible to me... until I heard the second rented condo. Holy cow.

[onehair]

My aforementioned hopeless aunt and uncle are still living in the land of delusions.  My mother was having computer problems which is why she hadn't updated me plus she was busy with stuff like dealing with dental issues (always fun ugh).  According to her my aunt has now asked to move in with her which mom shot down in a fifth of a second.  In addition to my aunt's personality which is always crabby and her spending habits my stepfather and sister would kill her.

My uncle has taken to calling my mom from numbers not his in order to see if she answers the phone so he can ask for help.  Mom will not answer his calls in a welcome show of strength and resolve.  He will have to learn to survive on his own.

[Papa Mustache]

When I was in college I lived with relatives for about two years. They'd talked the wife's mom into selling the home she'd lived in for years with her husband (he'd just died) so that they could put a down payment on a huuuuuuuge house in one of the nicest areas in the East Bay.

Perfect reasons to be moustachian and have your own income and your own (hopefully paid for) place to live. You never know when your friend or family might flake out on you.

I had that happen with a bit of clutter I was storing at a relative's place in a barn. They decided the barn needed to be empty except the tractor. Today years later it is still 90% empty. No reasons given on why suddenly it needed to be empty and there was never a time limit to the original storage favor.

I adapted a shed (lengthened it) to serve the same purpose. Just had to move it onto my property. In the long run I've been happier with that solution than being beholden to the relative for the 10x12 space I was using in their barn.

[StudioDweller]

When I was in college I lived with relatives for about two years. They'd talked the wife's mom into selling the home she'd lived in for years with her husband (he'd just died) so that they could put a down payment on a huuuuuuuge house in one of the nicest areas in the East Bay.

Perfect reasons to be moustachian and have your own income and your own (hopefully paid for) place to live. You never know when your friend or family might flake out on you.

I had that happen with a bit of clutter I was storing at a relative's place in a barn. They decided the barn needed to be empty except the tractor. Today years later it is still 90% empty. No reasons given on why suddenly it needed to be empty and there was never a time limit to the original storage favor.

I adapted a shed (lengthened it) to serve the same purpose. Just had to move it onto my property. In the long run I've been happier with that solution than being beholden to the relative for the 10x12 space I was using in their barn.

Agreed. But when you're 17 and moving from one country to another and completely financially on your own... Not happening ;)

[mm1970]

I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.

Depends where you live. For a house in a decent area with ok schools you might not want to send your kids to costs a metric crap ton in some areas (SF, NY/NJ, DC, etc). Like $500k+ for not a war zone middle class area. That beaing said, it's still stupid, but I can totally understand how it can happen. The housing cost comes from my parents' place (worth about $750k). Much of that amount is taxes in addition to the rest of the normal maintenance, mortgage, etc. It's what you get for living outside NYC.

Yeah, my house was close to $800k and our school sucks.  We transfer to a different public school, but lots of people do private, at $20k to $40k a year per kid.

[FrugalWad]

They always say "Money doesn't buy happiness".

That's an interesting position for them to take. Money doesn't buy happiness, but isn't that exactly what they're trying to do in spending everything in the pursuit of happiness?

I had a relative who wanted something. They were poor with financial decisions, so didn't have the money for it. It wasn't a lot of money for whatever they wanted, maybe just a couple hundred bucks. I suggested cutting back on a small vice, the daily soda, and in very short order the thing could be had. That was just inconceivable.

There were a few conversations I had with my grandparents about the times they bought cars. When two or three year financing were normal. That sounded amazing to me. I was too young to shave then, let alone grow a mustache. The conversations stayed with me for a long time. I was so wide-eyed and open-mouthed I was afraid my eyes and tongue were going to fall out when I found out I had another relative who had taken a 72 month loan to finance their brand new SUV. Six years to pay off a vehicle.

Another relative made $100,000+ after 30 years working, and has a pension of $60,000. Not a penny saved, and spending exceeds earnings to the point of needing a full time job in what should be early retirement.

[cripzychiken]

My FIL 's sister  Carol and her husband Bob.
I am NOT related to these people at all.
Carol is to retire in 5-6 yrs. Bob is to retire in 8-10 yrs.Both work in GTA.
 Just sold their pd for house Downtown TO  for.......  their  retirement home,  1 hr outside TO.
 Since they are both still working ,  they have decided to live in the old  neighbourhood ,
 as they know it so well , in a rented condo.
 But wait.....there is more.....since they have so much stuff they are also renting the condo next to the first condo so they can have their stuff close by.
Carol and Bob are now living and  working on their retirement home on weekends and commuting Sunday nites to the condos to get the jump on rush hr traffic.
And she is the smart one.

So C&B sell 1 house to buy another and rent 2 more apartments?!??! I don't get why they sold in the first place.  Sounds like the 2 rents alone are going to be higher than their old mortgage, and that is ignoring the other house entirely.

Some people I can see the 'logic' they use to make their mistakes less 'stupid' in their eyes, but I can't even image where this came from.

Bob: Carol, great idea, the apartment down the street is renting for $500/month less than our mortgage, lets sell and move in there to save money!

Carol: Sure, but we should also buy a house out in the country while prices are lower.

Bob: Ok, makes sense, but we also have a lot of stuff, and I don't want to only get to not use it on the weekends, I want to be able to ignore it during the week too.  but the new apartment is too small, so let's also rent the apartment next to us to store our stuff in.  Since it is only a short walk away, we can always feel like it is right there, but still never actually, you know, go use it since that would require walking.

Carol: great idea, I'll call the realtor.

[SelfImprovementNinja]

It's frustating to watch, but I have an aunt and uncle who are retired and their daughter, in her 50s, and two grandkids, in their 30s who leech off them.

The daughter has been helped out numerous times (paying HOA dues, downpayment for house etc.).  THey lent her money to start a hair salon, and it went under because she couldn't wake up and open the place before noon.  The place went under and that money is gone forever.

Her son (their grandson) was raised by my aunt and uncle and has 3 kids by different women and lived with them until he was almost 30. That winner doesn't want to go to school, and ended up working in an ice cream store and slipped and fell and injured his back.  He ended up needing surgery, and instead taking the insurance settlement and going to trade school or something, he bought a truck, jewelry for his wife, and they all went on a vacation. Now he's broke again.

Their grandaughter, who lost her house, was saving up to buy another house so she moved into their house (rent free) with her husband and 2 kids (yes, my aunt and uncle are supporting their great grandkids). They were in there almost 2 years, and never did so much as buy groceries once. They bought a place, and renovated it while still living with my aunt and unlce.  They fixed the pool first, so they could go there and cool off and have parties.  It took months to finish the house because they only worked on it on the weekends...when they weren't tired or weren't having pool parties.

To add insult to injury, the grandaughter has a 2015 blinged out SUV.  I told her she is broke because of doing stupid stuff like leasing that truck.  She proceeded to tell me how stupid I was, because she's saving money since she's leasing it because it's $200 a month cheaper to lease it than to buy it because of her bad credit. And she's NOT broke she just had bad credit because of when she wasn't paying her bills on time.  The stupid, it burns!

And...she didn't want to sell her furniture while she was living with my aunt and uncle so she was paying $200+ a month to store it...for 2 years. And this isn't Ethan Allen furniture we're talking about.

My aunt and uncle were planning on selling their house and getting something smaller because they are retired and running out of money from supporting all these deadbeats, but they couldn't sell their house until their granddaughter finished her house because "where would she and the kids live?" 

Aunt and uncle both have health problems and need to sell their house (the stairs are difficult for them) and these parasites are indifferent to their suffering and want to suck them dry.  When they pass away, I have no idea how they will survive after they blow through what little they have left of their inheritance.

[Cassie]

That is so very sad. Too bad they never learned to say no to those deadbeat kids.

[Dollar Slice]

I can't quite say my parents "don't get it" because they are wealthy and have a lot of savings and a nearly paid-off house... but this killed me. My mom told me that they were at their favorite restaurant and their favorite waiter came over to tell them that they'd been doing the books for the year and they discovered that my mom and dad are their #1 most frequent (I think he called it "most loyal") customers. She said she was surprised because they "only" go there for lunch once a week together, plus she'll go sometimes with a friend for lunch, plus they'll go for dinner every couple of weeks, and sometimes they'll go with a group of friends, etc. Rough guesstimate, I think it's possible they are spending $5k annually at ONE RESTAURANT.

[Papa Mustache]

This one pretty much bugged me off and on all night.

Visited with my parents over Labor Day weekend for a few hours. They started on my teenager about getting his license in six months. Then the conversation turned into what kind of car do you want - we'll have it here in a few days. Dangling carrots in front of a hopeful teenager. On hte ride home afterwards I expected I'd have to let him down gently but he said he figured out their "game" fairly quickly that evening. He knew how they were. They did this to me a couple of times when I was younger. Its like teasing a dog with a steak and its just cruel.

Then last night they call up having found a similar vehicle to what he described and proceeded to lecture me about how I needed to move quick on this purchase. It has 250K miles and looks good I'm told - except pretty much everything needs TLC inside and out - but it's cheap so it's okay. $1K for the purchase and I figure another $$$ for insurance and another $1K or more in repairs - even if I do them myself. Luckily for us - I took the call and not my teenager. They shouldn't be dangling the carrot like that.

The point is - he's 15. He doesn't need a vehicle and can't afford any part of a vehicle at this point. He's worked all summer part time (weekends), babysat his younger brother for us and we're proud of him putting his obligations ahead of fun. Still  he couldn't afford to buy a set of SUV tires despite the fact that he's saved 90% of his money.

Its isn't that he doesn't deserve a vehicle but there are a couple of stipulations to getting a driver's license. He must have a minimum GPA which will help us get an insurance discount.

What bugs me is how my parents don't seem to have interest in what my rules might be. They want to kick off the driving conversation without asking me of my wife - the parents - what the rules might be.

And then there is the fact that he doesn't NEED a vehicle. We have a spare family car that is usually sitting around here doing nothing b/c we carpool everyday back and forth to work/school. I don't WANT to spend $2K+ on some clunker when we don't need one.

This is just a repeat of them buying him a TV without checking with us. Wouldn't do him any good without  satellite or cable TV b/c we can't receive OTA TV here b/c we are in a small town far from a big city. Then there was the Android tablet which they bought and then asked in front of him - oh - didn't you want him to have a tablet? Nevermind we had a tablet at home (purchased with CC points) and an iPad supplied by my wife's employer. They said "oh, he needs his own tablet".

I seriously worry about them buying him a vehicle without our permission. Here is a clunker that will need to be repaired many times. When I addressed it last night in an email the reply was "WHATEVER" (their caps...). Well - that was unusually juvenile. I was informed that my sister (the favored child) is getting ready to buy her son (same age within months of our teen) a vehicle, so we ought to buy our son a vehicle. She is a "spendypants" so I expect it to be excessive for a 16 year old. We do NOT play "Keeping up with the Joneses". I'll be a complainer here for a moment and point out that they can afford it b/c her husband has received many $$$ gifts over the years plus my sister was given a college education where I had to pay for my own. She also got matching money for her cars through graduation whereas I had to buy, insure, fuel and repair my own vehicles. Yeah - sounds a bit like a fairy tale there.

[HairyUpperLip]

That sucks to hear, Joe.

Interested to hear what kind of car your niece ends up with though. lol

[merula]

....crazy parents story....

That's awful. I feel for you, Joe. But good for you for raising your son to see through their BS.

Can you talk to your son about the true costs of owning a vehicle, compared to what you're offering? I'm not entirely sure what you're offering him (free use of the spare car? shared gas/insurance costs?), but it sounds like he's got a good head on his shoulders and it'd be  great if he would tell his grandparents he doesn't want their offer because you've given him something better.

My kids are much younger, so this may or may not be relevant to you, but I was about two steps away from severely reducing my parents' contact with them over buying things against my wishes. After several "Please don't buy things for them" conversations, I switched to "Do NOT bring anything into my house without my expressed permission, or I don't know what I'll do." That seems to have worked, but my next step was "If I can't trust you to listen to me, then I can't trust you around my children. Bring one more thing into my house and they will see you at holidays only."

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Seeing through bullshit is a skill that will serve your son well.

[debbie does duncan]

Hello Average Joe................your parents suck!
They are narcissists.
You have been taking their abuse for too long. I am sorry to hear this.
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.
Head over there pls, for the peace of mind knowing you are not alone.
It is not your fault they are broken.
Good luck

[Pooperman]

Hello Average Joe................your parents suck!
They are narcissists.
You have been taking their abuse for too long. I am sorry to hear this.
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.
Head over there pls, for the peace of mind knowing you are not alone.
It is not your fault they are broken.
Good luck

This. You are not alone. My father is one and is no longer a part of my life. Life's too short to spend your time dealing with shit like that... i mean, it's the longest thing you'll ever do, but do you really want to put up with it? Most of the people on this forum are aiming for FIRE for various reasons, chief among them is getting away from work environments as toxic as your parents!

[irishbear99]

Seeing through bullshit is a skill that will serve your son well.

+1

You can't control what your parents do, but you can continue to talk to your son and help him continue to develop his bullshit-spotting skills. If nothing else, that will help keep him grounded in reality, especially when he comes into contact with crazy like that.

[Fishindude]

Spent a recent weekend with brother and sister in law, our kids and a bunch of nieces & nephews.

The kids are all late 20's to mid 30's starting families, etc.  All of them in over their heads with a couple new cars with payments per family and $250,000 homes on 30 year mortgages, none of them carry cash, everything goes on credit cards, etc.   Discussions about trading cars because they have 60,000 miles and taking out home equity loans to do house remodeling and additions, etc.  Their parents are in the same boat and have basically shown them how to "live the good life".

We've always lived pretty frugal and have done things "cash and carry" for the most part, and kids are operating similarly.  Could see my kids taking this all in and kind of rolling their eyes.  They just paid off their "affordable home" and and carry very little debt.   Made me proud, but at the same time, it's sad to see high earners digging such holes for themselves.
 

[AlanStache]

Spent a recent weekend with brother and sister in law, our kids and a bunch of nieces & nephews.

The kids are all late 20's to mid 30's starting families, etc.  All of them in over their heads with a couple new cars with payments per family and $250,000 homes on 30 year mortgages, none of them carry cash, everything goes on credit cards, etc.   Discussions about trading cars because they have 60,000 miles and taking out home equity loans to do house remodeling and additions, etc.  Their parents are in the same boat and have basically shown them how to "live the good life".

We've always lived pretty frugal and have done things "cash and carry" for the most part, and kids are operating similarly.  Could see my kids taking this all in and kind of rolling their eyes.  They just paid off their "affordable home" and and carry very little debt.   Made me proud, but at the same time, it's sad to see high earners digging such holes for themselves.

Small O.T. quibble - CC are not inherently bad if paid off regularly and can yield good bonuses.  But I understand if some people find it easier/simpler to not use them at all.

[MgoSam]

Spent a recent weekend with brother and sister in law, our kids and a bunch of nieces & nephews.

The kids are all late 20's to mid 30's starting families, etc.  All of them in over their heads with a couple new cars with payments per family and $250,000 homes on 30 year mortgages, none of them carry cash, everything goes on credit cards, etc.   Discussions about trading cars because they have 60,000 miles and taking out home equity loans to do house remodeling and additions, etc.  Their parents are in the same boat and have basically shown them how to "live the good life".

We've always lived pretty frugal and have done things "cash and carry" for the most part, and kids are operating similarly.  Could see my kids taking this all in and kind of rolling their eyes.  They just paid off their "affordable home" and and carry very little debt.   Made me proud, but at the same time, it's sad to see high earners digging such holes for themselves.

Small O.T. quibble - CC are not inherently bad if paid off regularly and can yield good bonuses.  But I understand if some people find it easier/simpler to not use them at all.

That's how I use them, but all too many people use them without thinking and then make minimum payments, or don't pay off the entire balance, which can lead to some unpleasant results.

It's pathetic how often people in a TV show will mention needing to "pay off my credit card."

[eyesonthehorizon]

He knew how they were. They did this to me a couple of times when I was younger. Its like teasing a dog with a steak and its just cruel.

Good on you especially for 1. raising him to carry some skepticism and 2. being there to support him through that experience. When I was younger and very desperate I had a wealthy relative who would occasionally throw pipe dreams in front of myself and my sibling (forgotten the next day) - and which one of my parents would get drunk and elaborate on. I always took it with a whole saltshaker, but that's not to say that it didn't creep into my head (or hurt) at all by creating a mental alternative to an existing (very bad!) situation, and having my parent additionally play along and assure me it was all going to work out somehow made it very hard to ignore even when I rationally knew better. Being reaffirmed that it was unrealistic and unlikely, even if it wasn't fun news to hear, would have meant a lot to me at that time and given me a lot of respect for their honesty, for both demonstrating and entrusting me with responsibility instead of appealing empty fantasies or irresponsible decisions.

[Papa Mustache]

When I was younger and very desperate I had a wealthy relative who would occasionally throw pipe dreams in front of myself and my sibling (forgotten the next day) - and which one of my parents would get drunk and elaborate on. I always took it with a whole saltshaker, but that's not to say that it didn't creep into my head (or hurt) at all by creating a mental alternative to an existing (very bad!) situation, and having my parent additionally play along and assure me it was all going to work out somehow made it very hard to ignore even when I rationally knew better. Being reaffirmed that it was unrealistic and unlikely, even if it wasn't fun news to hear, would have meant a lot to me at that time and given me a lot of respect for their honesty, for both demonstrating and entrusting me with responsibility instead of appealing empty fantasies or irresponsible decisions.

Hey, you'll laugh but as recently as a year ago (I'm a father in his 40s) I was naive enough to assume that my parents were the most squared away people I knew who always had my best interests in mind 100% of the time.

I still think they THINK they have my best intentions in mind but sometimes their execution leaves a bit to be desired. ;)

Had my wife and I been close friends when we were young teens - and we could have used each other for a sounding board like we do today - life would have been much easier and entertaining. ;)

Here's to some age and wisdom!!!

[Lian]

Hello Average Joe................your parents suck!
They are narcissists.
You have been taking their abuse for too long. I am sorry to hear this.
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.
Head over there pls, for the peace of mind knowing you are not alone.
It is not your fault they are broken.
Good luck

This. You are not alone. My father is one and is no longer a part of my life. Life's too short to spend your time dealing with shit like that... i mean, it's the longest thing you'll ever do, but do you really want to put up with it? Most of the people on this forum are aiming for FIRE for various reasons, chief among them is getting away from work environments as toxic as your parents!

Narcissist parents - exactly!  Your parents show typical narcissist boundary and control issues. And your sister is the 'favored' sibling - another typical narcissist game. Good for you that you aren't easily manipulated by them.

[Papa Mustache]

Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.

Spent some time over the past week reading my way through that thread. Don't think my parents are as bad as some of those stories on Reddit but they have had their moments.

Talked to them over the weekend. Expected the "big chill" but there were no problems. That's how they've handled other "disputes" (different opinions about a given topic).

They pointedly didn't want to talk about the car situation but then my email probably said more than enough on the topic. Nothing left to discuss.

That's okay. Life goes on. ;)

On the home front my "soon to be driving" teenager showed his teenager-ness today. Seems he forgot his lunch, no lunch money in his pocket, and his English teacher calls us because she wants him to see her during lunch time for some tutoring on some topic they are working on in class.

He has been avoiding her in favor of eating lunch with his friends.

This doesn't bode well for getting a license, getting his grades up a notch (only a notch to meet our expectations), and demonstrating that his head is turned on enough to operate a vehicle. ;) I say all this in humor b/c I'm not going to get bent out of shape over this yet. The joys of children!

[bagap]

Hello Average Joe................your parents suck!
They are narcissists.
You have been taking their abuse for too long. I am sorry to hear this.
Raised by Narcissist is a sub on Reddit.
Head over there pls, for the peace of mind knowing you are not alone.
It is not your fault they are broken.
Good luck

Made my day! :D

[RetiredAt63]

Hi Joe Average

They are not doing your sister any favours by having her as the favoured child.  Look at her financial situation and entitled child.  Much as it hurts you at times, you are building a better life than she is. 

[ash7962]

*sigh*.  There's a lot of back story here that I won't go into.  Earlier this year my dad decided it was a good idea to move their large nest egg from their bank account to a 60/40 split between VTI and BND (stock and bond index funds), yayyy.  Today I take a peek into my parent's finances (I have permission) and I find that over the last few months dad has occasionally sold 5-15k of shares then bought them back later that day or in the next couple days.  That happens a few times until he finally just sells off his whole position.  Meaning he bought the majority of his shares before the end of July then sold them by the end of September.... basically buying high and selling low.  I added up all his buying and selling and he's netted himself -20,800$.  He sold the majority at 97.88$ and its now back up to 103.67$.  This is all after he lost 30k in May of this year due to his options trading.  Based off everything I've seen this year, he can't manage their money objectively, and is investing off of emotion more than logical reasoning.  They do still have a decent nest egg since they were great at saving before dad lost his job and started options trading full time.  He even spent 5 years trading options where he generally broke even or had some gains, and I'm not sure if that was good luck or if he does have some skill.  I just hope he is lucky enough to see their money last for the rest of their lives.

[MgoSam]

^^^ This is one thing I like about Vanguard, they don't allow people to frequently sell their mutual funds, as it raises their expenses (and consequently ours).

[seathink]

If your kid died, what are you going to do with the money? Buy yourself a car? "OK, let's go drive around in little Timmie's death dividend". Wouldn't you hate that car?

I just hate how children's life insurance is marketed. The language makes it sound as though purchasing it is somehow ensuring your child's life continues instead of giving you a check if they die.

This has to be a band name someday!!

[codemonkey]

*sigh*.  There's a lot of back story here that I won't go into.  Earlier this year my dad decided it was a good idea to move their large nest egg from their bank account to a 60/40 split between VTI and BND (stock and bond index funds), yayyy.  Today I take a peek into my parent's finances (I have permission) and I find that over the last few months dad has occasionally sold 5-15k of shares then bought them back later that day or in the next couple days.  That happens a few times until he finally just sells off his whole position.  Meaning he bought the majority of his shares before the end of July then sold them by the end of September.... basically buying high and selling low.  I added up all his buying and selling and he's netted himself -20,800$.  He sold the majority at 97.88$ and its now back up to 103.67$.  This is all after he lost 30k in May of this year due to his options trading.  Based off everything I've seen this year, he can't manage their money objectively, and is investing off of emotion more than logical reasoning.  They do still have a decent nest egg since they were great at saving before dad lost his job and started options trading full time.  He even spent 5 years trading options where he generally broke even or had some gains, and I'm not sure if that was good luck or if he does have some skill.  I just hope he is lucky enough to see their money last for the rest of their lives.

My closest friend during the end of college had a similar issue with his father.  The dad sold his business for 2 million and retired into option/day trading.  4-5 years later he was broke and had lost everything.  The rest of the family was clueless until everything had already fallen apart and their dad was addicted to alcohol / drugs.  Obviously this is an extreme case, but it can happen.

I hope you can sit down and help your parents out, or at least warn them of the dangers.

[MgoSam]

*sigh*.  There's a lot of back story here that I won't go into.  Earlier this year my dad decided it was a good idea to move their large nest egg from their bank account to a 60/40 split between VTI and BND (stock and bond index funds), yayyy.  Today I take a peek into my parent's finances (I have permission) and I find that over the last few months dad has occasionally sold 5-15k of shares then bought them back later that day or in the next couple days.  That happens a few times until he finally just sells off his whole position.  Meaning he bought the majority of his shares before the end of July then sold them by the end of September.... basically buying high and selling low.  I added up all his buying and selling and he's netted himself -20,800$.  He sold the majority at 97.88$ and its now back up to 103.67$.  This is all after he lost 30k in May of this year due to his options trading.  Based off everything I've seen this year, he can't manage their money objectively, and is investing off of emotion more than logical reasoning.  They do still have a decent nest egg since they were great at saving before dad lost his job and started options trading full time.  He even spent 5 years trading options where he generally broke even or had some gains, and I'm not sure if that was good luck or if he does have some skill.  I just hope he is lucky enough to see their money last for the rest of their lives.

My closest friend during the end of college had a similar issue with his father.  The dad sold his business for 2 million and retired into option/day trading.  4-5 years later he was broke and had lost everything.  The rest of the family was clueless until everything had already fallen apart and their dad was addicted to alcohol / drugs.  Obviously this is an extreme case, but it can happen.

I hope you can sit down and help your parents out, or at least warn them of the dangers.

I suspect this is what keeps my dad working. He has enough to retire off of easily, but doesn't really have much to do during the day and all his friends still work and he doesn't like golf. I keep trying to have him go on longer vacations (like instead of going to my brother's for Thanksgiving, stay a few days longer and see his brother who lives like an hour away).

[johnny847]

^^^ This is one thing I like about Vanguard, they don't allow people to frequently sell their mutual funds, as it raises their expenses (and consequently ours).

They have this policy on paper. But in practice this "frequent trading policy" is easily circumvented:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Frequent_trading_policy#Setting_up_a_one-shot_automatic_transfer

[MgoSam]

^^^ This is one thing I like about Vanguard, they don't allow people to frequently sell their mutual funds, as it raises their expenses (and consequently ours).

They have this policy on paper. But in practice this "frequent trading policy" is easily circumvented:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Frequent_trading_policy#Setting_up_a_one-shot_automatic_transfer

Oh I know loopholes around it, but still enjoy that there are some minor safeguards.

[ash7962]

*sigh*.  There's a lot of back story here that I won't go into.  Earlier this year my dad decided it was a good idea to move their large nest egg from their bank account to a 60/40 split between VTI and BND (stock and bond index funds), yayyy.  Today I take a peek into my parent's finances (I have permission) and I find that over the last few months dad has occasionally sold 5-15k of shares then bought them back later that day or in the next couple days.  That happens a few times until he finally just sells off his whole position.  Meaning he bought the majority of his shares before the end of July then sold them by the end of September.... basically buying high and selling low.  I added up all his buying and selling and he's netted himself -20,800$.  He sold the majority at 97.88$ and its now back up to 103.67$.  This is all after he lost 30k in May of this year due to his options trading.  Based off everything I've seen this year, he can't manage their money objectively, and is investing off of emotion more than logical reasoning.  They do still have a decent nest egg since they were great at saving before dad lost his job and started options trading full time.  He even spent 5 years trading options where he generally broke even or had some gains, and I'm not sure if that was good luck or if he does have some skill.  I just hope he is lucky enough to see their money last for the rest of their lives.

My closest friend during the end of college had a similar issue with his father.  The dad sold his business for 2 million and retired into option/day trading.  4-5 years later he was broke and had lost everything.  The rest of the family was clueless until everything had already fallen apart and their dad was addicted to alcohol / drugs.  Obviously this is an extreme case, but it can happen.

I hope you can sit down and help your parents out, or at least warn them of the dangers.

Ugh we HAVE talked about investing dangers.  I've stressed that even when the market goes down he hasn't actually lost the money until he sells.  He also has knowledge of investing strategy and he knows that index funds are a buy and hold strategy.  We've talked about not being able to time the market.  Honestly, they have enough of a nest egg to absorb this mistake and still retire comfortably (though they would have to lower their current spending slightly).  They could potentially be retired right now if they followed MMM principals.  It just hurts to see them lose 20k for no reason.  It also worries me because my mom has said that he is very emotionally tied to his options trading.  He mood swings with his trades.  Right now he's got a job and has some room to make these mistakes, but I'm worried he'll end up like your friend's father.  I'll just really really hope that this was a 1 time bad choice.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

My closest friend during the end of college had a similar issue with his father.  The dad sold his business for 2 million and retired into option/day trading.  4-5 years later he was broke and had lost everything.  The rest of the family was clueless until everything had already fallen apart and their dad was addicted to alcohol / drugs.  Obviously this is an extreme case, but it can happen.

I hope you can sit down and help your parents out, or at least warn them of the dangers.

This is one of the things that often happens when two halves of a married couple aren't equal partners and decision makers in the money management and investment department.