Relatives who just don't get it

[dandarc]

...It was explained to me, quite clearly, that there were two ways to discharge the debt:

• Paying it
• Bringing creditors the police report and court findings against the guilty party

I chose not to press charges.

She has your SSN.

Visit each credit bureau’s site to get more information about placing a security freeze on your credit report.

    Equifax: Freeze Your Equifax Credit Report, 1-800-685-1111 (NY residents 1-800-349-9960)
    Experian: Freeze Your Experian Credit Report, 1-888-397-3742
    TransUnion: Freeze Your TransUnion Credit Report, 1-888-909-8872

After yet another of his drug-based frauds and arrests, I commented to the mother of my half-brother that maybe he'd get to do time, this time.  She was outraged.  I told her, "I don't say that with any pleasure.  But nothing you have done, nothing his father did, nothing any of us has done, has done any good at all.  There's no point in repeating what we've done.  Our best efforts have failed.  To the tune of $10,000s.  Maybe another way will reach him.  Clearly we can't."

Agree with this - mom might borrow the money whether NC knows it or not.

fredbear - From what I've seen, doing time probably won't really change anything for your half-brother.  Maybe for a short time, but at least in my family's experience, jail isn't so bad by itself to spur long-term change. What it will do is give the family a break from all of the addict's bullshit - won't be confronted with all the crazy behavior unless you choose to be if they're in jail. Depending on how bad off the person is, it could be a step up in terms of being a relatively safe environment too.

[Cool Friend]

In February my wife and I got denied for our first mortgage. A decade ago, my mother took out three credit cards in my name, to 'pad my credit score'.
I found out in the meeting with the loan agent that my mother took those cards, maxed out their balances, then quit making payments on them.
By May I had payed off the cards, which took quite a bit of life efficiency and putting off other investments.
In the time since February my mother has asked me for a loan four times.

So...your mother committed identity theft...and you paid the bills to cover up for her? Wow...

In the kind of family where a parent feels entitled to steal from a son or daughter, there's generally a whole lot of toxic programming that starts at birth. One person-- let's call him or her the Emperor-- is entitled to do whatever he or she wants to the designated target-- let's call him or her the Peasant. The Peasant's job is to work hard, not complain, serve the Emperor, and make sure to always forgive the Emperor no matter what.

The kind of extreme entitlement that leads to stealing from a relative *always* has a basis in fact. Someone, somewhere, teaches the thief that it's OK to do such things and that not only will there never be any negative consequences, but the theft is right and appropriate. For the victim to object or to seek legal redress is in fact wrong and inappropriate according to family rules. There are often people besides the Emperor or the Peasant who reinforce the family rules to keep the Peasants in line.

Oh yes, I grew up with a parent who did this.  I started working at 15 because I was on my own for school lunch, clothes, etc.  I had to open a joint checking account with my mom because I was a minor.  She regularly dipped into this account without telling me.  When I found out, she told me that this was money I "owed" her (presumably for the food and shelter she was legally obliged to provide).  By the way, she was the one who verbally abused me until I got the job.  It all fell into place why: she saw me as an extra income source to fuel her atrocious financial habits.  I started cashing my checks and hiding the money in increasingly obscure places because she would tear through my room when I wasn't home.

[FIRE@50]

I had to hide my paychecks from my mom until I was old enough to get my own checking account. I used to just slide them under the bottom desk drawer in my room. Took them all to the bank at once right before I went to college.

[87tweetybirds]

One of the big barriers to getting DH to save was a similar problem. As a young boy his Aunt took him to open a savings account, into which he deposited money from various little jobs. After his parents (primarily his mother) found out about it she had him withdraw everything he had saved to "loan" them money to pay bills, (never repaid of course) and thereafter would regularly request for teenage DH to pay some of the household bills. He also had to pay for his own high school education (he lived in a country where education was free until about grade 6). Took some convincing to help him see that his mother had no business knowing the details of our finances, and to only tell her what he was willing to share (disclosure of income without accompanying disclosure of matching expenses is met with requests for $ for "needs" such as vacations to the beach, nice dinner out, etc). They have no real idea how much we make or save. He has managed to maintain a somewhat healthy relationship by telling them he would send x amount of money a month, and that's it.

[Catbert]

DH and  I have a birthday lunch each year with his sister and her son b/c all 4 of our birthdays are the same month.  We only see the nephew a couple of times a year, some years only once.

A little background:  In the past nephew has been a jeans, tee shirt and tats kinda guy.  A couple of years ago he bought   leased a car so he could make money doing Uber.  That worked as well as you would expect.  Earlier this year he got a steady job.  Not high paying but 40 hours a week with health insurance at a company you've actually have heard of.  Things are looking up.  Now...

He comes in the restaurant dressed  like a rapper (or at least what my 65 y.o. eyes think a rapper looks like):  oversized football jersey, baggy, long shorts, lots of jewelry (cheap in his case), baseball hat with a flat brim, shaved head etc.  He's all about his music and how his music career is taking off.  Showed us how he can "play" guitar on his iphone X.  How he's playing in the barrio and is "the only white boy who dares go there".  How all the girls on his instagram post bikini pics.  He uses cool filters (available only on iphone X) to take pics of him getting out the shower with a towel wrapped around his waist.  How he's going to start a charity for poor single mothers which sounds like a great way to meet vunerable young women.

Typical not-got-their-act-together 20-something behavior you say?  Maybe he'll outgrow it and get his act together.? Yea, maybe.  Except he's 49.  How long until he gives up the steady job so he can devote more time to his music is anybody's guess.

[ixtap]

DH and  I have a birthday lunch each year with his sister and her son b/c all 4 of our birthdays are the same month.  We only see the nephew a couple of times a year, some years only once.

A little background:  In the past nephew has been a jeans, tee shirt and tats kinda guy.  A couple of years ago he bought   leased a car so he could make money doing Uber.  That worked as well as you would expect.  Earlier this year he got a steady job.  Not high paying but 40 hours a week with health insurance at a company you've actually have heard of.  Things are looking up.  Now...

He comes in the restaurant dressed  like a rapper (or at least what my 65 y.o. eyes think a rapper looks like):  oversized football jersey, baggy, long shorts, lots of jewelry (cheap in his case), baseball hat with a flat brim, shaved head etc.  He's all about his music and how his music career is taking off.  Showed us how he can "play" guitar on his iphone X.  How he's playing in the barrio and is "the only white boy who dares go there".  How all the girls on his instagram post bikini pics.  He uses cool filters (available only on iphone X) to take pics of him getting out the shower with a towel wrapped around his waist.  How he's going to start a charity for poor single mothers which sounds like a great way to meet vunerable young women.

Typical not-got-their-act-together 20-something behavior you say?  Maybe he'll outgrow it and get his act together.? Yea, maybe.  Except he's 49.  How long until he gives up the steady job so he can devote more time to his music is anybody's guess.

Now that is how you do a midlife crisis!

[Lanthiriel]

Update: I tried to have a conversation with my mom when she was here, but she assured me that she’s planning to sell the truck and trailer. And that my dad plans to retire in 2 years so she has money coming. She has finally looked up her social security benefits and it sounds like she’s only expecting $500/mo from social security and $400/mo from her teacher’s pension. But at least that’s something.

Then my sister calls me today to tell me that my mom told her she had to take a cash advance on her credit card to pay her bills because of her two week unpaid vacation. What happened to the $25k I know she had after she closed on her house only 9 months ago?! Is it possible she’s lived that far beyond her means in that time? My sister also said that from her conversations with dad, it doesn’t sound like he’ll retire as soon as he is eligible but will work probably  another 5 years.

After listening to my mother describe all of the furniture she’s purchased since she moved into her house, my husband made it very clear that she will never see a penny from us. It’s actually freeing to have someone willing to just say no. Period. But still... what a mess.

[SwordGuy]

One of the big barriers to getting DH to save was a similar problem. As a young boy his Aunt took him to open a savings account, into which he deposited money from various little jobs. After his parents (primarily his mother) found out about it she had him withdraw everything he had saved to "loan" them money to pay bills, (never repaid of course) and thereafter would regularly request for teenage DH to pay some of the household bills. He also had to pay for his own high school education (he lived in a country where education was free until about grade 6). Took some convincing to help him see that his mother had no business knowing the details of our finances, and to only tell her what he was willing to share (disclosure of income without accompanying disclosure of matching expenses is met with requests for $ for "needs" such as vacations to the beach, nice dinner out, etc). They have no real idea how much we make or save. He has managed to maintain a somewhat healthy relationship by telling them he would send x amount of money a month, and that's it.

@87tweetybirds ,


I disagree.  You've managed to maintain an appeasement relationship by doing this.   It's not healthy, far from it.

[Cassie]

LAN, what Ames’s indeed. Hopefully she won’t ask any of the kids for money and just figures it out. Hope her health holds up because she is going to have to work for a very long time.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

One of the big barriers to getting DH to save was a similar problem. As a young boy his Aunt took him to open a savings account, into which he deposited money from various little jobs. After his parents (primarily his mother) found out about it she had him withdraw everything he had saved to "loan" them money to pay bills, (never repaid of course) and thereafter would regularly request for teenage DH to pay some of the household bills. He also had to pay for his own high school education (he lived in a country where education was free until about grade 6). Took some convincing to help him see that his mother had no business knowing the details of our finances, and to only tell her what he was willing to share (disclosure of income without accompanying disclosure of matching expenses is met with requests for $ for "needs" such as vacations to the beach, nice dinner out, etc). They have no real idea how much we make or save. He has managed to maintain a somewhat healthy relationship by telling them he would send x amount of money a month, and that's it.

@87tweetybirds ,


I disagree.  You've managed to maintain an appeasement relationship by doing this.   It's not healthy, far from it.

Have to agree. He's effectively exchanged monthly payments for peace and harmony. OK, that might be worth it to you guys. Only you can judge that. I'd be well down the path to 'fuck off', myself.

[Slee_stack]

DH and  I have a birthday lunch each year with his sister and her son b/c all 4 of our birthdays are the same month.  We only see the nephew a couple of times a year, some years only once.

A little background:  In the past nephew has been a jeans, tee shirt and tats kinda guy.  A couple of years ago he bought   leased a car so he could make money doing Uber.  That worked as well as you would expect.  Earlier this year he got a steady job.  Not high paying but 40 hours a week with health insurance at a company you've actually have heard of.  Things are looking up.  Now...

He comes in the restaurant dressed  like a rapper (or at least what my 65 y.o. eyes think a rapper looks like):  oversized football jersey, baggy, long shorts, lots of jewelry (cheap in his case), baseball hat with a flat brim, shaved head etc.  He's all about his music and how his music career is taking off.  Showed us how he can "play" guitar on his iphone X.  How he's playing in the barrio and is "the only white boy who dares go there".  How all the girls on his instagram post bikini pics.  He uses cool filters (available only on iphone X) to take pics of him getting out the shower with a towel wrapped around his waist.  How he's going to start a charity for poor single mothers which sounds like a great way to meet vunerable young women.

Typical not-got-their-act-together 20-something behavior you say?  Maybe he'll outgrow it and get his act together.? Yea, maybe.  Except he's 49.  How long until he gives up the steady job so he can devote more time to his music is anybody's guess.

Sounds like nephew has nailed the aspiring part of the 'aspiring rapper' phrase that seems to pop up so often.

[SwordGuy]

One of the big barriers to getting DH to save was a similar problem. As a young boy his Aunt took him to open a savings account, into which he deposited money from various little jobs. After his parents (primarily his mother) found out about it she had him withdraw everything he had saved to "loan" them money to pay bills, (never repaid of course) and thereafter would regularly request for teenage DH to pay some of the household bills. He also had to pay for his own high school education (he lived in a country where education was free until about grade 6). Took some convincing to help him see that his mother had no business knowing the details of our finances, and to only tell her what he was willing to share (disclosure of income without accompanying disclosure of matching expenses is met with requests for $ for "needs" such as vacations to the beach, nice dinner out, etc). They have no real idea how much we make or save. He has managed to maintain a somewhat healthy relationship by telling them he would send x amount of money a month, and that's it.

@87tweetybirds ,


I disagree.  You've managed to maintain an appeasement relationship by doing this.   It's not healthy, far from it.

Have to agree. He's effectively exchanged monthly payments for peace and harmony. OK, that might be worth it to you guys. Only you can judge that. I'd be well down the path to 'fuck off', myself.

Wonder how many people will get this reference?

[zolotiyeruki]

Peace for our time, eh?

[shelivesthedream]

One of the big barriers to getting DH to save was a similar problem. As a young boy his Aunt took him to open a savings account, into which he deposited money from various little jobs. After his parents (primarily his mother) found out about it she had him withdraw everything he had saved to "loan" them money to pay bills, (never repaid of course) and thereafter would regularly request for teenage DH to pay some of the household bills. He also had to pay for his own high school education (he lived in a country where education was free until about grade 6). Took some convincing to help him see that his mother had no business knowing the details of our finances, and to only tell her what he was willing to share (disclosure of income without accompanying disclosure of matching expenses is met with requests for $ for "needs" such as vacations to the beach, nice dinner out, etc). They have no real idea how much we make or save. He has managed to maintain a somewhat healthy relationship by telling them he would send x amount of money a month, and that's it.

@87tweetybirds ,


I disagree.  You've managed to maintain an appeasement relationship by doing this.   It's not healthy, far from it.

Have to agree. He's effectively exchanged monthly payments for peace and harmony. OK, that might be worth it to you guys. Only you can judge that. I'd be well down the path to 'fuck off', myself.

If the only way to have a relationship with my mother is to give her money so she doesn't harass me, that's not a relationship I want to maintain.

I read "healthy" as in "healthy for him". He feels like he's supporting her but it's a fixed amount each month so he can budget for it and not stress about endless random requests for money. He doesn't want to have zero relationship with her, so this is a way he can have boundaries that are manageable and enforceable but not have to stress too much about it.

[a286]

In February my wife and I got denied for our first mortgage. A decade ago, my mother took out three credit cards in my name, to 'pad my credit score'.
I found out in the meeting with the loan agent that my mother took those cards, maxed out their balances, then quit making payments on them.
By May I had payed off the cards, which took quite a bit of life efficiency and putting off other investments.
In the time since February my mother has asked me for a loan four times.

So...your mother committed identity theft...and you paid the bills to cover up for her? Wow...

In the kind of family where a parent feels entitled to steal from a son or daughter, there's generally a whole lot of toxic programming that starts at birth. One person-- let's call him or her the Emperor-- is entitled to do whatever he or she wants to the designated target-- let's call him or her the Peasant. The Peasant's job is to work hard, not complain, serve the Emperor, and make sure to always forgive the Emperor no matter what.

The kind of extreme entitlement that leads to stealing from a relative *always* has a basis in fact. Someone, somewhere, teaches the thief that it's OK to do such things and that not only will there never be any negative consequences, but the theft is right and appropriate. For the victim to object or to seek legal redress is in fact wrong and inappropriate according to family rules. There are often people besides the Emperor or the Peasant who reinforce the family rules to keep the Peasants in line.

Oh yes, I grew up with a parent who did this.  I started working at 15 because I was on my own for school lunch, clothes, etc.  I had to open a joint checking account with my mom because I was a minor.  She regularly dipped into this account without telling me.  When I found out, she told me that this was money I "owed" her (presumably for the food and shelter she was legally obliged to provide).  By the way, she was the one who verbally abused me until I got the job.  It all fell into place why: she saw me as an extra income source to fuel her atrocious financial habits.  I started cashing my checks and hiding the money in increasingly obscure places because she would tear through my room when I wasn't home.

Grims example is spot on for me. And yours. Also verbally abused here. Honestly surprised my dad did not dip into my savings account after I got my first job, but he could have before then or during my freshman year of college and I wouldn't have known. All I knew is I put $2k in graduation gifts in there on top of some money from my high school job and withdrew occasionally from an atm on campus... towards the end of spring semester sophomore year I was a little short on living expenses from my job the previous summer, so I asked my dad to send some money (this is what the extra from the PLUS loans was for, supposedly, see below). When I got home that summer I open the first statement from the savings account and it had..  $81.

The straw that broke the camel's back:

My dad always volun-told me that I would be supporting him in his old age, and giving him a job running the office of my vet clinic (I applied, didn't get in, and now mainly thank my lucky stars for that because that is some crazy debt for an over saturated field...). I was always like, haha, good joke... as this was in high school and college, but he always had a serious note to it...

Then I found out that when my parents took out PLUS loans when I went to college, he took the max amount every year (only needed maybe half) and he told me I owed him the $100k in PLUS loans, though he couldn't show where the other $50k he didn't need to take out went.

I think I dodged a major bullet not getting into vet school...

[LaineyAZ]

Not my relative, but heard this story from a friend this week about her brother:

There was a hail storm that caused damage to her brother's roof and house siding.  Fortunately his insurer agreed to cover it to the tune of $15,000.  But, brother was upset that his mortgage company insisted on his using it to actually repair the house.  He told my friend that he'd wanted to pocket the money and just ignore the damage (!) 

(as much as we like to rag on insurance companies, they must get a little crazy with insureds like this who see any incident as an easy way to riches...)

[SwordGuy]

Not my relative, but heard this story from a friend this week about her brother:

There was a hail storm that caused damage to her brother's roof and house siding.  Fortunately his insurer agreed to cover it to the tune of $15,000.  But, brother was upset that his mortgage company insisted on his using it to actually repair the house.  He told my friend that he'd wanted to pocket the money and just ignore the damage (!) 

(as much as we like to rag on insurance companies, they must get a little crazy with insureds like this who see any incident as an easy way to riches...)

If he has a mortgage on it, then the insurer is spot on right to require the repairs be made.   They are providing insurance both to the homeowner and to the mortgage owner.    Ditto with a car.


If there is no loan on the property, and the repairs are cosmetic (i.e., not leading to additional damage or liability), I doubt the insurer would require the repairs to be made.   

They certainly didn't when we had both our cars totaled by cosmetic hail damage!   ($10,000 richer!)   But they also wouldn't pay for additional body damage unless we proved the repairs had been done...

[merula]

Not my relative, but heard this story from a friend this week about her brother:

There was a hail storm that caused damage to her brother's roof and house siding.  Fortunately his insurer agreed to cover it to the tune of $15,000.  But, brother was upset that his mortgage company insisted on his using it to actually repair the house.  He told my friend that he'd wanted to pocket the money and just ignore the damage (!) 

(as much as we like to rag on insurance companies, they must get a little crazy with insureds like this who see any incident as an easy way to riches...)

If he has a mortgage on it, then the insurer is spot on right to require the repairs be made.   They are providing insurance both to the homeowner and to the mortgage owner.    Ditto with a car.


If there is no loan on the property, and the repairs are cosmetic (i.e., not leading to additional damage or liability), I doubt the insurer would require the repairs to be made.   

They certainly didn't when we had both our cars totaled by cosmetic hail damage!   ($10,000 richer!)   But they also wouldn't pay for additional body damage unless we proved the repairs had been done...

Assuming that the brother's insurance has Replacement Cost coverage rather than Actual Cash Value, then not only does the mortgage company get to require that the repairs actually be made, the insurance company can too.

Let's say that the damaged roof/siding was approximately halfway through its useful life. The cost of brand-new roofing/siding is $15,000, but the brother didn't lose brand-new roofing/siding, he lost halfway-depreciated stuff, so the actual value of it is $7,500. Typically, you're required to prove that you actually replaced what you lost to get a Replacement Cost payment, otherwise you just get the actual cash value of what you lost.

The advantage from the insurance company's standpoint (and the mortgage company, for that matter) is that repaired roofing/siding is going to better protect against future storms.

[Playing with Fire UK]

Not my relative, but heard this story from a friend this week about her brother:

There was a hail storm that caused damage to her brother's roof and house siding.  Fortunately his insurer agreed to cover it to the tune of $15,000.  But, brother was upset that his mortgage company insisted on his using it to actually repair the house.  He told my friend that he'd wanted to pocket the money and just ignore the damage (!) 

(as much as we like to rag on insurance companies, they must get a little crazy with insureds like this who see any incident as an easy way to riches...)

https://notalwaysright.com/recession-part-70/97384/

[merula]

Not my relative, but heard this story from a friend this week about her brother:

There was a hail storm that caused damage to her brother's roof and house siding.  Fortunately his insurer agreed to cover it to the tune of $15,000.  But, brother was upset that his mortgage company insisted on his using it to actually repair the house.  He told my friend that he'd wanted to pocket the money and just ignore the damage (!) 

(as much as we like to rag on insurance companies, they must get a little crazy with insureds like this who see any incident as an easy way to riches...)

https://notalwaysright.com/recession-part-70/97384/

That happens so frequently that my company started paying the shop directly. The fact that she didn't actually try to claim injuries is somewhat remarkable; people who will spend an insurance payment on something other than the damages is not usually someone who cares all that much about telling the truth.

[SwordGuy]

Not my relative, but heard this story from a friend this week about her brother:

There was a hail storm that caused damage to her brother's roof and house siding.  Fortunately his insurer agreed to cover it to the tune of $15,000.  But, brother was upset that his mortgage company insisted on his using it to actually repair the house.  He told my friend that he'd wanted to pocket the money and just ignore the damage (!) 

(as much as we like to rag on insurance companies, they must get a little crazy with insureds like this who see any incident as an easy way to riches...)

https://notalwaysright.com/recession-part-70/97384/

That happens so frequently that my company started paying the shop directly. The fact that she didn't actually try to claim injuries is somewhat remarkable; people who will spend an insurance payment on something other than the damages is not usually someone who cares all that much about telling the truth.

Well, there's a blanket statement...


We had two cars totaled from hail damage.   Cars worked perfectly fine, just lots and lots of cosmetic damage, i.e., dents.
   Company totaled the cars, we bought them back for pennies on the dollar and netted $10,000 in cash. 

Put that money to work in a rental property that would make us money instead of fixing the dents.  Not clear how that makes me less likely to tell the truth or indicates I'm a liar.

Wife got rear-ended once.  Crushed the back station wagon door and scuffed the plastic coating on the back bumper.   We fixed the funtional damage (the door).   Couldn't just get a plastic cover for the bumper, had to buy an entire bumper assembly.   Wife took some windex and some sand paper, applied it to the plastic, and it looked (mostly) as good as new.  We put the portion of the payment for the bumper unit into a new roof on our house.  Covered half the cost of the roof.   Not sure why that would indicate I'm less than truthful, either.


Some damage needs to be fixed -- other damage doesn't NEED to be fixed.   And it just makes good sense to use the money for things that don't NEED to be fixed on things that provide more value, either because they need to be fixed or they will provide additional income.

[onlykelsey]

Not my relative, but heard this story from a friend this week about her brother:

There was a hail storm that caused damage to her brother's roof and house siding.  Fortunately his insurer agreed to cover it to the tune of $15,000.  But, brother was upset that his mortgage company insisted on his using it to actually repair the house.  He told my friend that he'd wanted to pocket the money and just ignore the damage (!) 

(as much as we like to rag on insurance companies, they must get a little crazy with insureds like this who see any incident as an easy way to riches...)

https://notalwaysright.com/recession-part-70/97384/

That happens so frequently that my company started paying the shop directly. The fact that she didn't actually try to claim injuries is somewhat remarkable; people who will spend an insurance payment on something other than the damages is not usually someone who cares all that much about telling the truth.

Well, there's a blanket statement...


We had two cars totaled from hail damage.   Cars worked perfectly fine, just lots and lots of cosmetic damage, i.e., dents.
   Company totaled the cars, we bought them back for pennies on the dollar and netted $10,000 in cash. 

Put that money to work in a rental property that would make us money instead of fixing the dents.  Not clear how that makes me less likely to tell the truth or indicates I'm a liar.

Wife got rear-ended once.  Crushed the back station wagon door and scuffed the plastic coating on the back bumper.   We fixed the funtional damage (the door).   Couldn't just get a plastic cover for the bumper, had to buy an entire bumper assembly.   Wife took some windex and some sand paper, applied it to the plastic, and it looked (mostly) as good as new.  We put the portion of the payment for the bumper unit into a new roof on our house.  Covered half the cost of the roof.   Not sure why that would indicate I'm less than truthful, either.


Some damage needs to be fixed -- other damage doesn't NEED to be fixed.   And it just makes good sense to use the money for things that don't NEED to be fixed on things that provide more value, either because they need to be fixed or they will provide additional income.

But I assume you don't have a car loan.  It's a different story when the insurance is required not just to protect your means of transportation, but also your lender's collateral. 

[merula]

Well, there's a blanket statement...

Yes, it is.

We started doing it because there are way more people like the lady in the story than like you. Of course, if we owe for damages, we will pay by direct check as well, but it'll come printed with a statement about how this is all you're getting.

There's no requirement that we must pay the shop, but for people who ARE repairing their damages, paying the shop directly tends to cut down on a lot of issues. Think of it as saving people from themselves so they don't have to find a way to come up with the money.

[Paul der Krake]

I don't understand why the insurer cares whether or not the lender's collateral is getting what they want. Shouldn't that just be a matter between the insured and the lender?

[merula]

I don't understand why the insurer cares whether or not the lender's collateral is getting what they want. Shouldn't that just be a matter between the insured and the lender?

Theoretically, yes. The insurer has a contract with the insured, the insured has a contract with the lender, the insurer and the lender have no contractual relationship.

Traditionally, lenders lent on the basis of collateral; the home or the car. They quickly figured out that, if the collateral was damaged, the insured/borrower could collect the insurance payment but not repair the collateral, and the lender would be SOL.

So lenders created two solutions to this problem: (1) they inserted themselves into the insurer/insured contract by making insurance loss payee status a condition of the loan contract, and (2) changed the terms of the loan contract to allow them to collect from the borrower beyond the collateral stated, if the collateral proves insufficient.

Fun story: about 10 years back, someone I worked with was writing the insurance on a POS mini golf course. The thing burned down (of course it did, it was a POS firetrap), so we wrote out the check to the owner and called it a day. EXCEPT that the underwriter who handled the account had been lazy and instead of putting on a loss payee form saying "POS Bank LLC", they put the form on saying "As per schedule on file with the company". When the Claims department called up saying "Where's this schedule?" the guy couldn't find it, so he told Claims there wasn't any loss payee on file.

A few months later, POS Bank realizes they haven't been getting paid, go to investigate and find their collateral a bombed out ruin. They contact us because the owner had given them a certificate saying "look, you're a loss payee", and they're able to show that the insured HAD submitted a schedule listing them.

So we paid that claim twice. Good times.

The lazy guy is still with the company. Last I heard, he'd gotten promoted. Insurance is a great career path, kids.

[Just Joe]

Some damage needs to be fixed -- other damage doesn't NEED to be fixed.   And it just makes good sense to use the money for things that don't NEED to be fixed on things that provide more value, either because they need to be fixed or they will provide additional income.

The insurance payout can go towards your car (which is paid off) or into your pocket AFAIC. The other driver removed some of the resale value of your car. You can choose to repair the car or pocket that resale value loss.

I've been rear-ended a couple of times (once while the car was parked in a lot). Each time I repaired the car for pennies and pocketed the check. Actually bought tires for said car or grew my savings a little more.

[SwordGuy]

Some damage needs to be fixed -- other damage doesn't NEED to be fixed.   And it just makes good sense to use the money for things that don't NEED to be fixed on things that provide more value, either because they need to be fixed or they will provide additional income.

The insurance payout can go towards your car (which is paid off) or into your pocket AFAIC. The other driver removed some of the resale value of your car. You can choose to repair the car or pocket that resale value loss.

I've been rear-ended a couple of times (once while the car was parking in a lot). Each time I repaired the car for pennies and pocketed the check. Actually bought tires for said car or grew my savings a little more.

My cars have no "resale value" when I get rid of them.    If I get more than $500 as a courtesy offer from the dealer, I didn't drive the car long enough. 

[Dave1442397]

My cars have no "resale value" when I get rid of them.    If I get more than $500 as a courtesy offer from the dealer, I didn't drive the car long enough.

A friend of mine had a car that was so bad the dealer said he'd have to charge him $200 to take it on trade. He said it would cost that much for him to deal with scrapping it :)

[Uturn]

My cars have no "resale value" when I get rid of them.    If I get more than $500 as a courtesy offer from the dealer, I didn't drive the car long enough.

A friend of mine had a car that was so bad the dealer said he'd have to charge him $200 to take it on trade. He said it would cost that much for him to deal with scrapping it :)

Years ago, my then wife and I were trading her 12 year old Accord for a 5 year old Accord.  I was tired of working on the old one, plus it was just getting too unreliable.  The salesman took it to his manager to get a bid.  He comes back with the bid sheet, laughing.  The manager just wrote "ouch, no" in big letters. 

[Slow&Steady]

My cars have no "resale value" when I get rid of them.    If I get more than $500 as a courtesy offer from the dealer, I didn't drive the car long enough.

A friend of mine had a car that was so bad the dealer said he'd have to charge him $200 to take it on trade. He said it would cost that much for him to deal with scrapping it :)

Years ago, my then wife and I were trading her 12 year old Accord for a 5 year old Accord.  I was tired of working on the old one, plus it was just getting too unreliable.  The salesman took it to his manager to get a bid.  He comes back with the bid sheet, laughing.  The manager just wrote "ouch, no" in big letters.

Over the last year we have welcomed 4(!) new kids into the house (our baby, a 12, 13, & 18 year olds) so we got a new used van.  When we went to test drive it the dealer was asking if we would trade in our car.  It was a 2006 Prius with (almost) 300k miles on it, the look on his face was pretty priceless as he tried to figure out a way to tell us that he couldn't offer us anything for a car with 300k miles on it.  We had no intention of trading it in, it became the full size bumper car for the 18 year old until he broke her for good in the last accident. 

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

My cars have no "resale value" when I get rid of them.    If I get more than $500 as a courtesy offer from the dealer, I didn't drive the car long enough.

A friend of mine had a car that was so bad the dealer said he'd have to charge him $200 to take it on trade. He said it would cost that much for him to deal with scrapping it :)

Years ago, my then wife and I were trading her 12 year old Accord for a 5 year old Accord.  I was tired of working on the old one, plus it was just getting too unreliable.  The salesman took it to his manager to get a bid.  He comes back with the bid sheet, laughing.  The manager just wrote "ouch, no" in big letters.

That surprises me. I had a 1999 accord that I traded in in 2016--so it was a solid 17 years old but only had 180K. I got the $500 courtesy offer. I was thinking of trying to sell it myself because I think I could have gotten a grand, maybe $1500, but I got them to throw in a set of snow tires and spare TPMS sensors and called that good. So I like to say I traded my car to $500 and snow tires.

I would have kept it longer but I was a newly single mom, it was my only transportation, the transmission was going, and my grandfather was worried about me. He wanted me to have $10K with which to buy a used car and I very sensibly spent it on a five-year-old Fit.

[mm1970]

My cars have no "resale value" when I get rid of them.    If I get more than $500 as a courtesy offer from the dealer, I didn't drive the car long enough.

A friend of mine had a car that was so bad the dealer said he'd have to charge him $200 to take it on trade. He said it would cost that much for him to deal with scrapping it :)

Years ago, my then wife and I were trading her 12 year old Accord for a 5 year old Accord.  I was tired of working on the old one, plus it was just getting too unreliable.  The salesman took it to his manager to get a bid.  He comes back with the bid sheet, laughing.  The manager just wrote "ouch, no" in big letters.

we traded in a 12 or 13 year old POS Saturn.  They gave us $450.  Considering blue book was $800 and it was non-functional and needed AT LEAST $350 of work, we were good with that.

[ysette9]

From a family party today. One family member who has been retired for a number of years (spouse still works) apparently was scared off by the tech bubble and the Great Recession and has been in cash for the last ten years. He is now talking about investing in CDs. He also has deferred maintenance on a weekend property that he will pay for with a HELOC, but the good news is the vacation rental income will pay for that loan.

[Lovelywings]

This is partially about anti-mustachianism and partially about planning ahead for major life events.

A relative of mine moved to Canada from a developing country at the same time as me. We're the same age (mid 30s) only he is married with a baby. We didn't coordinate the move. Its a coincidence. I was initially excited but ever since he arrived it's been some crazy shit. First he requested I cosign a lease for him... I said no and ignored the guilt trip. Note he is not my sibling (we don't do things like this). Just a cousin that's close to the family. I said no because I myself am trying to get on my feet, I didn't trust that he won't have issues paying rent on time every month, and lastly I have a philosophical issue with subsidising someone elses family as a single woman.

That said, it's a big challenge moving to a western country so I wanted to be supportive emotionally. But after talking to my parents about it I find out they had warned and advised him several times about making such a huge decision without enough funds and expecting that things will just work out. They even told him not to expect help from me (my parents  are awesome sometimes) but he doesn't listen. The latest is him telling me he might need to borrow money from me to demonstrate to a potential landlord that he has enough funds to cover future rent. Which raises the question for me, how can you move your family to another country without the requisite cash on hand to support them for at least a year?? There's been other stuff like not doing proper research on the school his wife was supposed to attend...it's a long story. So now they have to change schools and find a different diploma course that leads to a work permit, even though school starts now. I googled and sent him a website managed by the government to check if other schools are eligible to apply for work permits after his wife graduates. When he mentioned they've gone and visited the other schools recently I asked him, did you confirm with admissions that your wife will be eligible for a permit after graduation? And his response was, I checked the website  link you gave me. 😯 I had to tell him to ask the bloody school as well! Mother of God.

There's other stuff, like him signing a lease then likely going to break it because of the school situation.  Obviously if they change schools they may have to change housing. In all its a crappy situation that reflects poor financial foresight and poor planning in general.

[Dee]

Ugh, that sounds stressful, Lovelywings. Good for you for setting appropriate boundaries and sticking to them. Keep at it!

[Paul der Krake]

Which raises the question for me, how can you move your family to another country without the requisite cash on hand to support them for at least a year??

That's what virtually every immigrant since the dawn of time has done.

[former player]

Which raises the question for me, how can you move your family to another country without the requisite cash on hand to support them for at least a year??

That's what virtually every immigrant since the dawn of time has done.

Yes.  The chance to legally move your family to a safe, rich country is one that many millions of people would leap at - even now several thousands of people die each year just for the chance of illegal immigration to such a country.  If a chance at legal immigration comes along you leap fast before it goes away.

[Hula Hoop]

Which raises the question for me, how can you move your family to another country without the requisite cash on hand to support them for at least a year??

That's what virtually every immigrant since the dawn of time has done.

Yes.  The chance to legally move your family to a safe, rich country is one that many millions of people would leap at - even now several thousands of people die each year just for the chance of illegal immigration to such a country.  If a chance at legal immigration comes along you leap fast before it goes away.

I agree - immigrant communities have always supported each other in various ways to obtain the [insert rich country name here] dream.  Usually, people emigrate to the new country because they are poor and want to improve their circumstances.  I doubt that many of them manage to save up much money while still living in the poor country.  If they were able to do that, why would they emigrate?

[Hula Hoop]

The immigrants I know here are mostly from poor countries like Bangladesh, the Philippines or various African countries or war torn countries like Libya or Syria.  When they arrive the other immigrants from these countries, and especially families, support the recent immigrant.  This seems to be expected along with sending remittances to the less fortunate relatives back home.  But maybe the culture lovelywings comes from does not have this kind of support as part of its culture.

[former player]

None of which is to say that I fault lovelywings for her attitude - she is talking to her cousin and offering advice, just not providing economic outpatient care to someone who hasn't yet figured out a financially sustainable life in their new country.

[Freedomin5]

I don’t fault loveywings either. There are a lot of other red signs in the post. The cousin:

- Asked her to lend him money to trick the potential landlord into thinong he has more savings than he actually has in order to secure an apartment —> So he’s dishonest?
- Didn’t do proper research on work visas before moving here and selecting housing —> Impulsive? Lacks certain executive functioning skills? Lacks foresight?
- Asked lovelywings to co-sign the lease
- Likely intends to break the lease —> So he’s untrustworthy and doesn’t intend to keep promises?

The point is not that he immigrated to Canada with little money. The point is that he didn’t even seem to do any planning around how he and his family are going to survive, but instead seems to be holding out his hand and asking lovelywings, who is also a recent immigrant, to support him and his family. Seems kind of mooch-y to me.

[Hula Hoop]

Yes - same here.  It sounds like this cousin did not do his homework and also plans to lie to his landlord amongst other things.  I can see why LW would be uncomfortable.

[Imma]

I called a few family members to tell them I've got a new job. In this job I will report to a CFO, but it's a massive company with lot of seperate entities, so it's just "a" CFO of this location, not "the" CFO.

My relatives all said congrats. And then all of them suggested I go shopping for clothes right away, because I can't work for a CFO wearing the type of clothes I wear now. What's wrong with what I wear now? There are no brand names on it. It's not expensive.

Seriously, I wear perfectly appropriate clothes to work but I try to find them secondhand or from shops like H&M and Zara. A black knee-length skirt is a black knee-length skirt. No one cares about the brand name.

Apparantly I also need a new coat. Why? Because I've had this one for years. Does it look worn out or old-fashioned? No, but you've had it for years. You shouldn't wear your clothes for such a long time. And it's boring because it's black.

[Linea_Norway]

I called a few family members to tell them I've got a new job. In this job I will report to a CFO, but it's a massive company with lot of seperate entities, so it's just "a" CFO of this location, not "the" CFO.

My relatives all said congrats. And then all of them suggested I go shopping for clothes right away, because I can't work for a CFO wearing the type of clothes I wear now. What's wrong with what I wear now? There are no brand names on it. It's not expensive.

Seriously, I wear perfectly appropriate clothes to work but I try to find them secondhand or from shops like H&M and Zara. A black knee-length skirt is a black knee-length skirt. No one cares about the brand name.

Apparantly I also need a new coat. Why? Because I've had this one for years. Does it look worn out or old-fashioned? No, but you've had it for years. You shouldn't wear your clothes for such a long time. And it's boring because it's black.

Ridiculous that you should exchange your perfectly appropriate clothes with others because of another function. I do understand that some functions would require a formal clothing style, but that should have more to do with the type of clothes than the brands. But many people are obviously poshy.

[cloudsail]

Zara is considered low end?? I think I've seen Kate Middleton wear stuff from Zara before she married Prince William.

[coldestcat]

I would avoid those shops because they promote a cycle of fashion that in not sustainable. way to go for second-hand clothes!

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/environment-costs-fast-fashion-pollution-waste-sustainability-a8139386.html

[ixtap]

Zara is considered low end?? I think I've seen Kate Middleton wear stuff from Zara before she married Prince William.

Wasn't that where Melania got that one jacket...

Zara is one of those middle ground places that people who buy clothes consider pretty pricey, but people who buy fashion consider low end.

[NoraLenderbee]

My relatives all said congrats. And then all of them suggested I go shopping for clothes right away, because I can't work for a CFO wearing the type of clothes I wear now. What's wrong with what I wear now? There are no brand names on it. It's not expensive.

In your situation, your relatives would be thinking, "Yay! New job means I get to buy new clothes!" so they assume you think the same way.

[AMandM]

Apparantly I also need a new coat. Why? Because I've had this one for years. Does it look worn out or old-fashioned? No, but you've had it for years. You shouldn't wear your clothes for such a long time. And it's boring because it's black.

Uh... "I'm sorry that my coat bores you"? Not an apology I'm ever planning to offer. 

[SwordGuy]

Here is the crazy part. My brother lived for about 2 school years in an apartment with a bunch of other guys about 10 mins on the other side of the university. Paying for everything - house, food etc. This means that pretty much his entire income from his job was spent on his bills. 

He has finally "run out of money" and moved back in with my parents. I can only imagine how rich he would be if he had just stayed home, did school and worked. Honestly he could have a down payment for a house by now.

Yeah, but his roommates would cheer him on, whereas his parents might interfere with having people sleep over...


I moved into an apartment when I went into grad school for precisely that reason.  Worth every penny. :)

Would have done so during my undergrad work if I could have afforded it then, too.