Relatives who just don't get it

[BTDretire]

I'm actually surprised how often I read "I'm on my parents' plan" on this forum. Is this a normal thing? Just asking, because to me it just sounds so strange.

It always surprises me to see it. I had my own phone plan at 18, and before that I was paying for my own pre-paid phone credit.

 Ya! I have two college kids on my daughters plan that I pay for. We had the plan in her name because she got a student discount. The discount has run out. Recently my daughter upgraded to unlimited and added her fiance's phone on to the plan.
Telling me the bill won't increase, we'll see!
 They are getting married next week. When she told me she added him to the bill, I told her my plan was to have her get her own plan after she got married. She sheepishly said, Oh!
 This is in another thread but, they both lost there jobs, through no fault of their own, (both worked at the same place)
 He did get another job two days later, and 3 paid weeks off even before he starts. (compensation for him not signing an agreement about his termination which would have gave him 8 weeks severance pay, but also putting roadblocks for the new company hiring him) His starting pay is much lower than he was making.
 So, I expect to continue paying their phone bill.
 

[Sibley]

Ya! I have two college kids on my daughters plan that I pay for. We had the plan in her name because she got a student discount. The discount has run out. Recently my daughter upgraded to unlimited and added her fiance's phone on to the plan.
Telling the bill won't increase, we'll see!
 They are getting married next week. When she told me she added him to the bill, I told her my plan was to have her get her own plan after she got married. She sheepishly said, Oh!
 This is in another thread but, they both lost there jobs, through no fault of their own, (both worked at the same place)
 He did get another job two days later, and 3 paid weeks off even before he starts. (compensation for him not signing an agreement about his termination which would have gave him 8 weeks severance pay, but also putting roadblocks for the new company hiring him) His starting pay is much lower than he was making.
 So, I expect to continue paying their phone bill.
 

I'd be nice and give them 6 months or something to get back on their feet, then they either get their own plan or chip in for their share. If you go this route, be upfront so they can plan. Or not plan, but that's their problem not yours.

[BTDretire]

Ya! I have two college kids on my daughters plan that I pay for. We had the plan in her name because she got a student discount. The discount has run out. Recently my daughter upgraded to unlimited and added her fiance's phone on to the plan.
Telling the bill won't increase, we'll see!
 They are getting married next week. When she told me she added him to the bill, I told her my plan was to have her get her own plan after she got married. She sheepishly said, Oh!
 This is in another thread but, they both lost there jobs, through no fault of their own, (both worked at the same place)
 He did get another job two days later, and 3 paid weeks off even before he starts. (compensation for him not signing an agreement about his termination which would have gave him 8 weeks severance pay, but also putting roadblocks for the new company hiring him) His starting pay is much lower than he was making.
 So, I expect to continue paying their phone bill.
 

I'd be nice and give them 6 months or something to get back on their feet, then they either get their own plan or chip in for their share. If you go this route, be upfront so they can plan. Or not plan, but that's their problem not yours.

Yes, that's reasonable, but there's more to the story :-) My daughter just got accepted to dental college, we will be paying for the 4 years of tuition, so the extra $800 a year for the phone is like 1.2% of the tuition. So she's on my dole for a while yet.
Lucky for her we have been savers for our whole marriage (37 yrs) and can afford it. And she's not a slouch, she's out their getting it done.

[Sibley]

Ya! I have two college kids on my daughters plan that I pay for. We had the plan in her name because she got a student discount. The discount has run out. Recently my daughter upgraded to unlimited and added her fiance's phone on to the plan.
Telling the bill won't increase, we'll see!
 They are getting married next week. When she told me she added him to the bill, I told her my plan was to have her get her own plan after she got married. She sheepishly said, Oh!
 This is in another thread but, they both lost there jobs, through no fault of their own, (both worked at the same place)
 He did get another job two days later, and 3 paid weeks off even before he starts. (compensation for him not signing an agreement about his termination which would have gave him 8 weeks severance pay, but also putting roadblocks for the new company hiring him) His starting pay is much lower than he was making.
 So, I expect to continue paying their phone bill.
 

I'd be nice and give them 6 months or something to get back on their feet, then they either get their own plan or chip in for their share. If you go this route, be upfront so they can plan. Or not plan, but that's their problem not yours.

Yes, that's reasonable, but there's more to the story :-) My daughter just got accepted to dental college, we will be paying for the 4 years of tuition, so the extra $800 a year for the phone is like 1.2% of the tuition. So she's on my dole for a while yet.
Lucky for her we have been savers for our whole marriage (37 yrs) and can afford it. And she's not a slouch, she's out their getting it done.

That's acceptable. Good luck to your daughter.

[martyconlonontherun]

Goddaughter/Niece's 7th birthday party was yesterday and I have a 520 account I contribute to monthly for her. Wife asked what we were getting her and I said I just plan on putting $25 extra in the account since she is having 25 kids over for a patry giving her toys she doesn't need. (My sister has a 1,400 square foot house with 3 kids. Not small but it fills up fast). Recognizing this wasn't very exciting for a 7 year-old I gave in to getting her a real present. My wife grabbed a swimsuit, cover-up and flip flops. I was shocked it was $45. Just seemed like a waste that didn't bring any real happiness or value. I guarantee if you asked my niece about the swimsuit she would have no idea what you were talking about.

[jengod]

Goddaughter/Niece's 7th birthday party was yesterday and I have a 520 account I contribute to monthly for her. Wife asked what we were getting her and I said I just plan on putting $25 extra in the account since she is having 25 kids over for a patry giving her toys she doesn't need. (My sister has a 1,400 square foot house with 3 kids. Not small but it fills up fast). Recognizing this wasn't very exciting for a 7 year-old I gave in to getting her a real present. My wife grabbed a swimsuit, cover-up and flip flops. I was shocked it was $45. Just seemed like a waste that didn't bring any real happiness or value. I guarantee if you asked my niece about the swimsuit she would have no idea what you were talking about.

You're a good godfather/uncle. The gift of compounding interest over time is wonderful, and I'm sure she'll appreciate it when she is older.

[kaypinkHH]

Just when I thought my BIL and SIL couldn't get any more ridiculous, they out do themselves...

BIL and SIL work in "oil country", making decent salaries (He is an engineer, she is a teacher). They are in their mid 30s, live in a Mini McMansion in a suburb, have 2 young children, and have an affinity for fancy cars.

They are constantly car swapping, upgrading, selling, buying etc.  Currently they have a fancy jeep thing, and a big hecking escalade with all the fixins. They also have a lambourgini (for fun??). It is slightly older (2006 I think?) but still, the cost of keeping that thing on the road+ monthly payments are more than what we pay for a mortgage.

MrHH was talking to his brother last night, and we were informed that they are selling the lambo. Finally, we thought, they are realizing that spending that much money on a car is ridiculous....

Nope. They are selling the lambo to "BUY" A FERRARI. Shipping it up from the states, probably going to end up costing them over 200k CAD. Plus all the incidental fees of that car. Even if he resells this car in 3-5 years (as seems to be the pattern), we figure interest+depreciation+ maintenance+ insurance will cost him 20-30k a year.

Now fair enough, it is their money, and if they want to work until they are 70 to pay for this fancy car habit, more power to them, but what drives us nuts is that they often complain about how hard it would be for them to move back closer to family because they "can't afford" the pay cut, and how "lucky" Mr.HH and I are to be closer to family.  Their life is so hard.

Grumble grumble.

Meanwhile we are over here feeling bad about eating fancy snacks we purchased on a whim and how we "wasted" $11.99.

[RWD]

Nope. They are selling the lambo to "BUY" A FERRARI. Shipping it up from the states, probably going to end up costing them over 200k CAD. Plus all the incidental fees of that car. Even if he resells this car in 3-5 years (as seems to be the pattern), we figure interest+depreciation+ maintenance+ insurance will cost him 20-30k a year.

Depending on the model of Ferrari it may not depreciate at all. At 200k CAD it's obviously not a brand new car. Most used Ferraris are holding their value really well or even appreciating. Even the relatively more mass produced models. Now that's not to say it's a wise use of money. The rest of the expenses you listed are still quite significant on a Ferrari and they are certainly losing a lot of money on anything that isn't a rapidly appreciating classic.

[Cali]

Most used Ferraris are holding their value really well or even appreciating. Even the relatively more mass produced models.

I’m not betting my non-existent ranch on the likelihood of OP’s relatives having the foresight to buy the Ferrari as an investment.

[K-ice]

Goddaughter/Niece's 7th birthday party ..... I gave in to getting her a real present. My wife grabbed a swimsuit, cover-up and flip flops. I was shocked it was $45. Just seemed like a waste that didn't bring any real happiness or value. I guarantee if you asked my niece about the swimsuit she would have no idea what you were talking about.

Make a date and take her swimming too. She will likely remember that forever.

[RWD]

Most used Ferraris are holding their value really well or even appreciating. Even the relatively more mass produced models.

I’m not betting my non-existent ranch on the likelihood of OP’s relatives having the foresight to buy the Ferrari as an investment.

Haha, yeah, me either.

[kaypinkHH]

Oh they are the type that everything is an investment. SIL: "These high quality clothes are investment pieces" girl please, your $400 LV mass produced purse is not a investment.

My BIL does wheel and deal to buy and sell his cars so he often doesn't lose too much money on them, (or so we are told), it is more so the operation and maintenance cost, and the general monthly carrying costs that boggle my mind, combined with the "oh poor us we can't move back to be closer to family" comments, not to mention the stress my BIL has because he could never risk losing his job.

Fancy car in my driveway that I drive 1x per week for 4 months of the year MAX vs living a laid back stress free life.....I'll choose the later!

(Also I love the math that for the less than the cost of owning that car, MrHH, who does love cars as well, could go to track day ~1x per week and drive better cars at speeds they are designed to drive, but then we don't get to tell people we have a Ferrari and that is what really counts...ugh).

[RetiredAt63]

And there are few places in Canada where you would want to drive a Ferrari in winter - so it is basically a summer car.  What a waste.

[Slee_stack]

I have an older moonbat (OM) distant relative who is thinking about investing in a business for another, much younger, moonbat (YM) relative to run.

I can't possibly see how this won't be full of WIN.

The younger relative is a 20 y.o. pothead who is 'kind of' in school, and is taking classes he got 'stuck with' because he 'forgot' to register and really had no choice in what to take. 

He 'has his own place' (lives with a girlfriend whose parents pay the rent) and has trouble coming up with his share of the internet bill.  He is always looking for handouts.  He currently has two different parents AND a grandparent paying for his cell phone bill....each!  He neglected to mention to any of them about the other's contributions.  He just pockets the 'windfall'.

This last month he had an unexpected crisis. He needed to replace his car because somebody tried to 'hot wire' it and it caught on fire.  His car was a mid 2000's VW or something.  I'm not sure it was a PRIME target for a thief to 'hotwire'....but he is positive this is what happened.

Before OM entered the picture, YM's plan was to 'hit the road with the band'.  He seems to think that the $20/night income on average he'd make is plenty enough to live on the road.  Frankly I'd be shocked if he made it out of a gig w/o drinking the twenty bucks away during it.  I'm not sure how the daily weed fund is going to be funded on top of that.  Maybe he can get a fourth person to pay the cell phone?

The grand plan that OM has come up with is to 'invest in' a Pot Farm and have YM, a 20 y.o. wake-and-bake reefer dude, manage it.   Wow.  Just wow.  This is a Fox-running-the-Henhouse level of insanity.

If this plan POSSIBLY goes awry, I will hopefully at least have a few entertaining tales to share down the road.

[kaypinkHH]

Omg, your moonbats make my ferrari loving inlaws look normal.

[Step37]

Omg, your moonbats make my ferrari loving inlaws look normal.

@Slee_stack, your crazy relatives could give this thread a run for its money!

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/my-soon-to-be-millionaires-family-members/msg1986973/#new

[Scarletdragon]

My step-daughter just got a divorce. They sold their house and each of them bought their own house.

Step-daughter bought a fixer upper. She took her father thru the house and showed him everything it needs; he comes home and wants to help her out financially. We finally agree to give her $3000 for a house-warming gift (I know, face punch)!

She decides to buy a new AC/furnace. She is quoted $5500, she says yes, they come and install everything and it is $7500. WTF

She comes over today, for Mother's Day, and she pulls into the driveway in a brand new 2018 Toyota 4 Runner, financed for SEVEN YEARS.

Her ex-husband went on vacation and so she thinks it is only fair that she goes on vacation, so spur of the moment, she books a trip to LA, for a week, over Memorial Day.

I asked her about her finances and she said they were able to pay off all but TWO of their credit cards when they sold their house.

She has been divorced One Week. We found out most of this today.

My MMM side has gone into cardiac arrest.

[Jouer]

My step-daughter just got a divorce. They sold their house and each of them bought their own house.

Step-daughter bought a fixer upper. She took her father thru the house and showed him everything it needs; he comes home and wants to help her out financially. We finally agree to give her $3000 for a house-warming gift (I know, face punch)!

She decides to buy a new AC/furnace. She is quoted $5500, she says yes, they come and install everything and it is $7500. WTF

She comes over today, for Mother's Day, and she pulls into the driveway in a brand new 2018 Toyota 4 Runner, financed for SEVEN YEARS.

Her ex-husband went on vacation and so she thinks it is only fair that she goes on vacation, so spur of the moment, she books a trip to LA, for a week, over Memorial Day.

I asked her about her finances and she said they were able to pay off all but TWO of their credit cards when they sold their house.

She has been divorced One Week. We found out most of this today.

My MMM side has gone into cardiac arrest.

I tend to eat my feelings. Looks like your step-daughter spends hers. We both need to cut that shit out pronto.
 

[Slee_stack]

My step-daughter just got a divorce. They sold their house and each of them bought their own house.

Step-daughter bought a fixer upper. She took her father thru the house and showed him everything it needs; he comes home and wants to help her out financially. We finally agree to give her $3000 for a house-warming gift (I know, face punch)!

She decides to buy a new AC/furnace. She is quoted $5500, she says yes, they come and install everything and it is $7500. WTF

She comes over today, for Mother's Day, and she pulls into the driveway in a brand new 2018 Toyota 4 Runner, financed for SEVEN YEARS.

Her ex-husband went on vacation and so she thinks it is only fair that she goes on vacation, so spur of the moment, she books a trip to LA, for a week, over Memorial Day.

I asked her about her finances and she said they were able to pay off all but TWO of their credit cards when they sold their house.

She has been divorced One Week. We found out most of this today.

My MMM side has gone into cardiac arrest.

Classic race to the bottom scenario. I guess she's 'winning'.

[DutchGirl]

First of all - I'm totally for renting a house in some scenarios. Like when you're young, and you may want to stay flexible because you might meet the man/woman/whatever(s) of your dreams and may want to move in together, or when you know that your education or career might take you elsewhere, sometime soon and thus you don't want to be tied to one place. Or when you just don't have the financial cushion yet that a homeowner should have to deal with emergencies...

That said, MIL and FIL have rented their house (the same house) for 50 years now and are still renting it. We bought a house last October (40% down, low mortgage interest rate) and told them about some of the hassle of having people over to fix stuff for us (yes yes, very un-Mustachean...).

MIL: I'm so glad that we're renting! It's so expensive to buy! And all the hassle!

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

[ixtap]

First of all - I'm totally for renting a house in some scenarios. Like when you're young, and you may want to stay flexible because you might meet the man/woman/whatever(s) of your dreams and may want to move in together, or when you know that your education or career might take you elsewhere, sometime soon and thus you don't want to be tied to one place. Or when you just don't have the financial cushion yet that a homeowner should have to deal with emergencies...

That said, MIL and FIL have rented their house (the same house) for 50 years now and are still renting it. We bought a house last October (40% down, low mortgage interest rate) and told them about some of the hassle of having people over to fix stuff for us (yes yes, very un-Mustachean...).

MIL: I'm so glad that we're renting! It's so expensive to buy! And all the hassle!

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

You don't think they would have spent $6k a year on upkeep and taxes if they had owned it?

[MgoSam]

First of all - I'm totally for renting a house in some scenarios. Like when you're young, and you may want to stay flexible because you might meet the man/woman/whatever(s) of your dreams and may want to move in together, or when you know that your education or career might take you elsewhere, sometime soon and thus you don't want to be tied to one place. Or when you just don't have the financial cushion yet that a homeowner should have to deal with emergencies...

That said, MIL and FIL have rented their house (the same house) for 50 years now and are still renting it. We bought a house last October (40% down, low mortgage interest rate) and told them about some of the hassle of having people over to fix stuff for us (yes yes, very un-Mustachean...).

MIL: I'm so glad that we're renting! It's so expensive to buy! And all the hassle!

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

You don't think they would have spent $6k a year on upkeep and taxes if they had owned it?

$500 euro a month for a house is a fantastic deal. I don't know if taxes and upkeep and other things are automatically included but if it is then if I can get a similar offer here in the States I'll sell my house and rent.

[DutchGirl]

You don't think they would have spent $6k a year on upkeep and taxes if they had owned it?

Taxes on homes, community taxes and things like sewage and garbage removal are calculated & taxed differently here in the Netherlands. So for them, that comes on top of the rent, just as it comes on top of our mortgage for us. And to be fair, their taxes would be a bit lower than ours, like 20% lower or so, due to the fact that they're not the owner of the house.  Oh, by the way, that rent would also be excluding utilities.

[barbaz]

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

Mortgage often costs more per month than rent. If you invest the difference (which they probably didn’t) renting can be cheaper even in the long term. Plus you have less risk and more freedom. It really depends on a lot of factors and the math is not as simple as in your calculation.

I found that for me buying would be a financial loss if it cost more than 150k€, and this doesn’t even include additional commuting cost. Good luck finding anything larger than a broom cabinet for that price.

[Imma]

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

Mortgage often costs more per month than rent. If you invest the difference (which they probably didn’t) renting can be cheaper even in the long term. Plus you have less risk and more freedom. It really depends on a lot of factors and the math is not as simple as in your calculation.

I found that for me buying would be a financial loss if it cost more than 150k€, and this doesn’t even include additional commuting cost. Good luck finding anything larger than a broom cabinet for that price.

I'm living quite happily in a broom closet that's currently valued at around 150k, 130 when we bought it. Terraced home, 75m2, 60 m2 garden, 3 bedrooms, €300 mortgage, very central location in a big city in NL. We were very lucky, but these kind of gems can still be found every now and then.

If you haven't spent 20 years on a social housing waiting list it's hard to find places with a rent lower than your mortgage would be though. Studio's and one bedroom apartments in my city can easily cost €800-€1000. That's what you'd pay for a 250-300k mortgage.
We paid €800 (incl. utilities, excl. taxes) in 2011 for the top floor of a single family home and the only reason our rent didn't rise from that is because I threatened the landlord to call in the local council to check if it was safe to live in. The single best financial decision we have ever made was to move from there to our current place. We broke even within 2 years and a year from there we're €10k ahead compared to our previous home.

I recently did advise a friend to stay in her rented home: large terraced home, they've put in quite a lot of work so it's really lovely, they have a large garden, nice neighbours, one of the nicest streets in town. They pay €400 or something. Similar homes are 300k in their town. They're a single income family and if you live in social housing your rent is subsidized when your income gets lower. I don't see why they would take the risk of buying when they're in such a good place now. They're on the fence, they love their current home but their parents tell them they "should" buy. I wouldn't do it if I was her - or at the very least, save up a lot of cash and wait until the next downturn.

[barbaz]

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

Mortgage often costs more per month than rent. If you invest the difference (which they probably didn’t) renting can be cheaper even in the long term. Plus you have less risk and more freedom. It really depends on a lot of factors and the math is not as simple as in your calculation.

I found that for me buying would be a financial loss if it cost more than 150k€, and this doesn’t even include additional commuting cost. Good luck finding anything larger than a broom cabinet for that price.

I'm living quite happily in a broom closet that's currently valued at around 150k, 130 when we bought it. Terraced home, 75m2, 60 m2 garden, 3 bedrooms, €300 mortgage, very central location in a big city in NL. We were very lucky, but these kind of gems can still be found every now and then.

Wow, that’s a great find. I wouldn’t call it a broom closet, though, unless you’re a family of 4 or more.

[Imma]

Quick back of the envelope calculations: 50 years times 12 months times 500 euros rent (estimate, in 2018-euros, of their subsidized rent) is 300k that they have spent on their house that has a current value of probably 200k or so, and still is 0% theirs...

Mortgage often costs more per month than rent. If you invest the difference (which they probably didn’t) renting can be cheaper even in the long term. Plus you have less risk and more freedom. It really depends on a lot of factors and the math is not as simple as in your calculation.

I found that for me buying would be a financial loss if it cost more than 150k€, and this doesn’t even include additional commuting cost. Good luck finding anything larger than a broom cabinet for that price.

I'm living quite happily in a broom closet that's currently valued at around 150k, 130 when we bought it. Terraced home, 75m2, 60 m2 garden, 3 bedrooms, €300 mortgage, very central location in a big city in NL. We were very lucky, but these kind of gems can still be found every now and then.

Wow, that’s a great find. I wouldn’t call it a broom closet, though, unless you’re a family of 4 or more.

No, it's perfect for 2 (and hopefully 3 in the future). Friends are upgrading to large Vinex type houses and think it's a bit strange that we stay here but we love it. The trick for us was to look into housing corporations selling off homes they can't afford to keep. Some people think they're all terrible, but if you keep your eyes open you might find a good deal in a nice location, even in big cities.

[Just Joe]

What is a Vinex style house?

[BDWW]

What is a Vinex style house?

Don't google it, I ended up watching a documentary on Bijlmermeer and Dutch attempts at planning  utopias... It's too easy to fall down rabbitholes on the internet.

[Just Joe]

I gave Google a cursory look but knowing how that could turn into a five hour internet session I quickly moved on.

I couldn't decide if it meant what we in my area call "zero lot line" homes or if it referred to a style (rooflines, trim style, types of windows or doors).

[Imma]

What is a Vinex style house?

Don't google it, I ended up watching a documentary on Bijlmermeer and Dutch attempts at planning  utopias... It's too easy to fall down rabbitholes on the internet.

:D

Vinex is the name of a law that allowed for large, centrally planned housing developments. They were supposed to be a cheap solution for the housing shortage, but these days those houses are quite expensive.

The houses are usually large, modern, light and cheap to heat and cool, but as they are centrally developed all the houses look the same. This is what it looks like in my city : http://www.lslarchitecten.nl/portfolio/grasrijk-meerhoven

Vinex living has become an aspiration as well as a cliche and is associated with the type of person you were never going to be when you grew up, until you did. A bit like the suburbs in the US.

[AlanStache]

...
Vinex is the name of a law that allowed for large, centrally planned housing developments. They were supposed to be a cheap solution for the housing shortage, but these days those houses are quite expensive.

The houses are usually large, modern, light and cheap to heat and cool, but as they are centrally developed all the houses look the same. This is what it looks like in my city : http://www.lslarchitecten.nl/portfolio/grasrijk-meerhoven

Vinex living has become an aspiration as well as a cliche and is associated with the type of person you were never going to be when you grew up, until you did. A bit like the suburbs in the US.

The examples I have seen south west of Schiphol looked fairly nice; if you can get past all the homes looking very similar.  But similar looking homes is SOP in the US...   Those I saw were mostly near a town center-ish shopping area where you could walk or bike to a cafe/pub/restaurant; biking and walking paths were everywhere and using them did not feel odd like it does in most of the US.

[MgoSam]

What is a Vinex style house?

When I typed in Vinex, Vanguard International Explorer Fund Investor Shares came up.

[markbike528CBX]

What is a Vinex style house?

When I typed in Vinex, Vanguard International Explorer Fund Investor Shares came up.

I spy a MPP (Mustachian People Problem).   

I love using my wife's Ipad occasionally, as the google results are essentially randomized, which can be more fun.

[Linea_Norway]

What is a Vinex style house?

Don't google it, I ended up watching a documentary on Bijlmermeer and Dutch attempts at planning  utopias... It's too easy to fall down rabbitholes on the internet.

:D

Vinex is the name of a law that allowed for large, centrally planned housing developments. They were supposed to be a cheap solution for the housing shortage, but these days those houses are quite expensive.

The houses are usually large, modern, light and cheap to heat and cool, but as they are centrally developed all the houses look the same. This is what it looks like in my city : http://www.lslarchitecten.nl/portfolio/grasrijk-meerhoven

Vinex living has become an aspiration as well as a cliche and is associated with the type of person you were never going to be when you grew up, until you did. A bit like the suburbs in the US.

Exactly what I associate it with. I also think of houses being built closely together with very small gardens. But I haven't lived in NL for a very long time, so my thoughts might be outdated.

[Just Joe]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

[markbike528CBX]

I live a town build for the Manhatten Project and all the houses built 1943-1951 are "letter- houses", a-z so while there are relatively few styles, there is some variation.  My house style is most commonly set 45 degrees from the street.   Modifications since building has disguised many of the houses.

[SansSkill]

Happened a while back but I could not convice either my brother or my grandparents that it was not an insane decision to not get insurance.

They agreed that I had enough of a buffer to replace out of pocket whatever was insured.
They agreed that insurance companies aim for profit.
They agreed that insurance companies realize this by making you pay them more than they have to pay you based on risk assement.
They agreed that insurance companies make an equal or better risk assement than us.
They did not agree that not insuring would put me ahead long term.

"But what happens if it breaks?"
"I'll replace it"
"But what happens if it breaks again the week after?"
"I'll replace it again"
"But what happens if it breaks every week?"

Though not the exact wording, I had this actual converstation with my brother.

My grandfather agreed with not insuring while simultaneously he went off on a tangent somewhere during the conversation how we need to read all the fine print because insurance companies are ripping you off and will have you paying for years without paying out. I somehow could not convince him that was an argument in my favour.

[Imma]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

The NL is a tiny country, so land is extremely expensive. These are large family homes by our standards.

The lots are probably around 1400 sq. ft. and most of the space is indeed taken up by the house/driveway. The yards are tiny. The lot my 1940s house is on is 1200 sq. ft, but our yard is 400-500 sq. ft. A guy I know lives in one of the streets I posted, his home cost half a million and he nearly fainted when he saw how big our yard is compared to his.

[Linea_Norway]

Happened a while back but I could not convice either my brother or my grandparents that it was not an insane decision to not get insurance.

They agreed that I had enough of a buffer to replace out of pocket whatever was insured.
They agreed that insurance companies aim for profit.
They agreed that insurance companies realize this by making you pay them more than they have to pay you based on risk assement.
They agreed that insurance companies make an equal or better risk assement than us.
They did not agree that not insuring would put me ahead long term.

"But what happens if it breaks?"
"I'll replace it"
"But what happens if it breaks again the week after?"
"I'll replace it again"
"But what happens if it breaks every week?"

Though not the exact wording, I had this actual converstation with my brother.

My grandfather agreed with not insuring while simultaneously he went off on a tangent somewhere during the conversation how we need to read all the fine print because insurance companies are ripping you off and will have you paying for years without paying out. I somehow could not convince him that was an argument in my favour.

Indeed, insurance companies or manufacturers are often trying to sell you a separate insurance for things like an phone or a TV. These things are perfectly covered by your home insurance if you have one.

We also have a car that is not insurance more than the legal insurance to pay back others. It is simply not worth it. If it is totalled, we'll just get another cheap one.

[Roadrunner53]

Yes, everything you buy in the stores they try to sell you insurance on the item. Like a $59 printer. NO, the stupid printer will probably last two years if I am lucky and will just buy a new one when it conks out.

[ketchup]

Yes, everything you buy in the stores they try to sell you insurance on the item. Like a $59 printer. NO, the stupid printer will probably last two years if I am lucky and will just buy a new one when it conks out.

Micro Center is really bad about this.  No, I don't want the $4.99 2-year protection plan on a $16.99 keyboard and mouse set.  Make sure you ask me individually about every item I'm buying though, I know that's your policy.

[Roadrunner53]

Yes, everything you buy in the stores they try to sell you insurance on the item. Like a $59 printer. NO, the stupid printer will probably last two years if I am lucky and will just buy a new one when it conks out.

Micro Center is really bad about this.  No, I don't want the $4.99 2-year protection plan on a $16.99 keyboard and mouse set.  Make sure you ask me individually about every item I'm buying though, I know that's your policy.

I can't even imagine trying to deal with the insurance company if my item would break. It would probably take 3 months and what do you do in the mean time? BUY another one!

[Hula Hoop]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

The NL is a tiny country, so land is extremely expensive. These are large family homes by our standards.

The lots are probably around 1400 sq. ft. and most of the space is indeed taken up by the house/driveway. The yards are tiny. The lot my 1940s house is on is 1200 sq. ft, but our yard is 400-500 sq. ft. A guy I know lives in one of the streets I posted, his home cost half a million and he nearly fainted when he saw how big our yard is compared to his.

If land is so costly, I don't understand why they don't build more apartments rather than houses on tiny lots.  Here in Italy, virtually everyone lives in an apartment - including in small towns.  This means that cities are nice and company and the countryside remains countryside for the most part.  Also, it's a lot cheaper for all involved and more environmentally friendly.

[Imma]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

The NL is a tiny country, so land is extremely expensive. These are large family homes by our standards.

The lots are probably around 1400 sq. ft. and most of the space is indeed taken up by the house/driveway. The yards are tiny. The lot my 1940s house is on is 1200 sq. ft, but our yard is 400-500 sq. ft. A guy I know lives in one of the streets I posted, his home cost half a million and he nearly fainted when he saw how big our yard is compared to his.

If land is so costly, I don't understand why they don't build more apartments rather than houses on tiny lots.  Here in Italy, virtually everyone lives in an apartment - including in small towns.  This means that cities are nice and company and the countryside remains countryside for the most part.  Also, it's a lot cheaper for all involved and more environmentally friendly.

I don't get it either. There are few family-sized apartments on the market, but they could be built and it would be a much more efficient use of limited space. People just want to live in a house they own. They don't want to rent or live in an apartment. And those people elect the government so nothing ever changes.

[Hula Hoop]

I've been to the Netherlands and I had the impression that most people lived in row houses many with lots of narrow stairs and postage stamp sized paved backyards.  I guess I'm preaching to the choir here but I don't see how that's any better than living in an apartment like ours here in an Italian city.  Our apartment is huge by Italian standards - 150 square meters and it has 4 large rooms (living room plus three bedrooms) so it's definitely family sized.  We bought it about 3 years ago but the building was built more than 100 years ago and is standard in this part of the world.  What I like about living here is that you can drive half an hour and you're out in the country side with farms and sheep because the city is so compact.  If everyone insisted on living in a row house the city would just sprawl forever.  Also living in an apartment on all one level is so much better for old people and disabled people.  I have no idea how old people manage to live in those Dutch row houses with tons of stairs.

Anyway it sounds like maybe apartment living has a "poor person" stigma in the Netherlands especially for a family for whatever reason.  I wonder how that happened when in much of the rest of Europe apartment living is the norm (here in Italy, but also in France and Spain - not sure about other European countries).

[former player]

One of the reasons for the division between house living and apartment living has been the historical need for defensibility.  Towns and cities which were more likely to come under attack needed defensible walls, which usually meant a limited built up area, which meant that as the population expanded the existing buildings had to be divided into separate dwellings, which meant apartments.  Italian cities had defensive concerns until the second half of the nineteenth century by which time apartment living would be well established.

The geography of the Netherlands made defensible walls mostly redundant, so no point huddling together behind them.  And for the opposite reason (very few invasions or infighting in the last several hundred years) there has been little tradition of apartment living in the British Isles until the late nineteenth century when the sheer size of London started it as a trend there.

History affects us all in so many ways which are usually hidden from us.

[Hula Hoop]

FP - fascinating.  Our Italian city has medieval city walls and we live within those walls.  I never really thought about the apartment thing being a product of that.  Anyway, as I said, I like the way Italian cities are so compact as a result.

Sometimes it makes me laugh though. I went to my friend's country place last weekend and it was 1.5 hours on the train from here (about an hour by car).  It was an apartment in a modern apartment complex built in the middle of rolling hills with various crops growing and cows in a field across the road and a 10 minute bike ride from the beach.  I think it's hilarious the way even Italian country cabin type places are usually apartments.  Another family friend has her country place in a medieval hill town near a lake about 45 minutes from here.  It's a two room apartment in a medieval building with a small garden.  only rich foreigners seem to go for those free standing villas in the Italian countryside.  To an Italian, that just seems lonely.

[shelivesthedream]

To me, there's a big difference between a massive tower block with twenty floors and a nice four-floor Parisian apartment building. One feels uncomfortably large and dominates hideously. The other is a pleasant and sensible use of square footage.

[Cassie]

We prefer a home with a yard to apartments.  We like to have dinner parties and barbecues. So need some space to do that. We sit in our backyard every day. It is quieter to live in a home.  Now we have a small house by US standards at 1400 sq ft.  We have a decent size backyard and live right in town so can walk places.