Relatives who just don't get it

[former player]

That all makes a lot of sense, thank you.  I haven't heard it set out so clearly in any other information I've seen.

I think a "toe in the water" approach by trying mentoring might be the best option, and then see how it goes.

[kaypinkHH]

Compared to the above posts this post is very light, but I wanted to share.

Over the past 3 months I have lived with my in-laws. I am very very fortunate that they let us stay with them, and they have been feeding us etc. while Mr.HH and I look for a house. We owe them big time. (I'm considering writing them a cheque, but they probably won't cash it...they are hard to shop for.)

That all being said, there are small things that they (early 60s) do differently than us (30), that make us chuckle. (Note, they seem to be happy with their lives, and we haven't complained/critiqued any of this, again we are grateful, but just interesting to see how they live their life vs us!). They are retired, FIL from disability back when he was 51, is now 65. MIL retired at 57, but still works part time. Both have some sort of pension.
 
- They buy so many options of things (not just 1 or two types of fruit...but ALL THE FRUIT), and then cook huge meals with so many options (not just turkey, but HAM, and SAUSAGES!) and have leftovers- but then don't have a plan for the leftovers. I can't imagine how much waste they are producing.
- My MIL came home from her part time retirement gig planning she was going to host people for dinner, and bought pre-shredded cheese for tacos because she was SO TIRED and "it was easier to deal with". Mr.HH and I were around to help! FIL was home ALL DAY, he could have prepped the dinner.
- They buy a lot of pre-cut/pre-washed veggies/fruit, single packages of food, keurig coffee- all these "costly" short cuts that totally make sense if you have little kiddos at home/working full time etc. But nope...we have two retired folk who watch a crazy amount of TV, who think of all these things as good deals!
- Which leads me to- SO MUCH TV. Omg it is on all the time. That is their main hobby.
- Very little recycling.  My FIL doesn't believe in recycling, thinks it actually hurts the environment, and it is all a government scam. Don't get him started on green energy and electric cars!
- Stress over things they can't control: They watch the news, or see a story on facebook, and are PERSONALLY IMPACTED by these stories. Driving around the city/traffic is stressful, weather events are stressful. EVERYTHING IS STRESSFUL.
- Tolerance of things: In the past 3 months my FIL has purchased the following items- New computer (his old one was a bit slow), new dryer (old one was acting weird, probably a loose door latch), new snow tires for the car (old ones were new, just not good enough). He will start looking for a new car soon (he trades in his car every 3 years and continuously carries a loan). Meanwhile MIL works the part time gig to save money to visit her other son and grandchildren across the country.
- FIL is very unhealthy (severely obese, shortness of breath, joint problems, high BP etc. etc.), but considers himself an expert on health, and critiques anyone who is active. MIL/FIL were very concerned when Mr.HH came home from the gym slightly stiff from working out. Comments like "you shouldn't push yourself so hard!" and "so and so started working out, and then died of a heart attack!" are common.
- Meals are mostly meat and carbs, with a few veggies (FIL skips those because he is concerned they may cause kidney stones??), everything is covered in ketchup/dressing/sugary sauces.

I want to say some of the difference are age/generational, but my BIL and his wife have a lot of the above habits (even though they live far away)! It would have been interesting to see if Mr.HH and I hadn't moved away for 6+ years, discovered MMM, decided we cared about our health/the environment, if we would be the same?

[dandarc]

Does read mostly age / generational, but at the end - that's actually true about certain vegetables causing / contributing to kidney stones.  Once you've had kidney stones, they'll generally advise a low-oxalate diet.  The answer of course isn't "MEAT AND POTATOES ONLY!", because as with any dietary approach, there's a lot of factors to think about.

[Inaya]

Not sure of the context, since this was overheard as I got on the elevator... but it says a lot about this person's views on consumption. "Microwaves are pretty much disposable anyway. They're really cheap."

[kaypinkHH]

Does read mostly age / generational, but at the end - that's actually true about certain vegetables causing / contributing to kidney stones.  Once you've had kidney stones, they'll generally advise a low-oxalate diet.  The answer of course isn't "MEAT AND POTATOES ONLY!", because as with any dietary approach, there's a lot of factors to think about.

Yah, I researched this briefly after being told by my FIL that he couldn't eat Edamame (because it was green).  He has a lot of steps he could be doing to reduce his risk (he has a high sodium, high sugar diet), the veggies (spinach and beets from what I could find) are the LAST of his worries.  He probably watched a Dr. Oz review about it, and heard "some greens can impact kidney stones, here is a miracle cure!" and what he chose to take away from that is "ALL VEGGIES ARE BAD". He probably just doesn't like veggies.

[ketchup]

Not sure of the context, since this was overheard as I got on the elevator... but it says a lot about this person's views on consumption. "Microwaves are pretty much disposable anyway. They're really cheap."

It feels very wrong, but I'm going to defend this in the proper context.

My GF once threw away a perfectly fine several-days-old microwave.  It was a small shitty $35 one from Walmart that she bought on a business trip so that she could reheat her food.  She thought the hotel she was staying at was going to have a microwave, but it did not.  She used it to reheat all of her food from home she packed for the trip, then dumped it before returning her rental car and flying home (no space to pack it to bring it back).  She left it by the trash in the hallway at the hotel.  Hopefully someone picked it up.

[MgoSam]

- FIL is very unhealthy (severely obese, shortness of breath, joint problems, high BP etc. etc.), but considers himself an expert on health, and critiques anyone who is active. MIL/FIL were very concerned when Mr.HH came home from the gym slightly stiff from working out. Comments like "you shouldn't push yourself so hard!" and "so and so started working out, and then died of a heart attack!" are common.

I got this from my parents when in high school all the time. Back then I LOVED running and would come home from school and pound out 3-6 miles daily. Then they started inquiring as to why I stopped running in college...this was because I started drinking beer and eating pizza at 2 am and not working out and as a result gained a ton of weight. When I jokingly told them, "Because you kept telling me to stop running," my mom flat out denied ever making such jokes or comments.

My dad is still in the camp of telling me not to exercise. He'll couch it by saving, "Don't push yourself," or "only do what you can handle." I've told him how much it gets on my nerves and so he tries to stop saying it.

[Just Joe]

Not sure of the context, since this was overheard as I got on the elevator... but it says a lot about this person's views on consumption. "Microwaves are pretty much disposable anyway. They're really cheap."

Remember the early "Radar Range" ovens? We had them well into the 1990s and 2000s. 

Even my discount store M/W oven is still kicking at ~25 yrs. Now it is my microwave at work.

[Sibley]

Not sure of the context, since this was overheard as I got on the elevator... but it says a lot about this person's views on consumption. "Microwaves are pretty much disposable anyway. They're really cheap."

Yep they are. We only get 25+ years out of them in my family... We had a couple well into the 1990s that were branded as "Radar Range" and purchased in the early to mid-70s. Even the discount store special we bought when DW and I got together is still alive in my office at work and 25+ years old.

Buy reasonable quality. Get your money's worth.

Not always. My parent's house the power isn't steady. Not really a big deal for the lamp (though I think their bulbs die faster), but it's very hard on electronics, etc. Their microwaves only last a couple years. Even with line conditioning it's a problem. They've actually killed a number of surge protectors/line conditioners, not with big swings, but a lot of little ones. Their area has a very old power grid that hasn't been maintained. It shows. Now, because the maintenance hasn't been done in forever, the entire power grid needs to be replaced.

[Just Joe]

You ought to check to see if the neighbors have the same problem. I know someone who kept blowing up electronics. Power surges that seemed to affect them but not the neighbors.

In the end it was a problem specific to their house. Bad grounding revealed after minor fire.

[Sibley]

You ought to check to see if the neighbors have the same problem. I know someone who kept blowing up electronics. Power surges that seemed to affect them but not the neighbors.

In the end it was a problem specific to their house. Bad grounding revealed after minor fire.

Way ahead of you :) House isn't perfect by any means, but the whole neighborhood has the problem too. It's the grid. They did do something to the grounding a long time ago which helped, I'm guessing the box wasn't properly grounded? So instead of spectacular deaths, they get slow electronic deaths.

[BJacks]

If my brother makes it to 25 at this point he'll be lucky. He is dealing with one DUI and it's just a matter of time until the next one. We did not have it rough growing up but the way he tells it he had a horrible childhood and everything in his life that could go wrong has.

I've always wondered about that... Honestly I'm a sheltered person so I don't know anyone who does street drugs (statistically I probably do...I do know alcoholics and one person who's addicted to pain pills due to bad health problems). But on the tv show Intervention, there is usually a story about abuse or trauma in childhood and the kid turns to drugs to cope with it. And yet there might be siblings who went through the same thing that are stone cold sober.

In our case we grew up pretty sheltered as well with a stay at home mom and a lake out our back door. My dad had a good job and we never worried about money. We were homeschooled until my mother went back to work and that’s where things went wrong for him. You hang out with drug addicts and losers and you will become a drug addict loser. His addictive personality and need for validation combined with the people he started hanging out with and my parents used to him being an overachiever resulted in him being a ways down the wrong path before anyone realized it. There’s something wrong with him mentally but we don’t know what or if it was something that the drugs made more obvious or if he’s fried his brain at this point. The way he thinks is not linear or even logical at times and he’s become some sort of conspiracy theorist. He can fake normal just fine when he needs to.

I didn’t realize how bad it was until I was garage sale-ing with my mom last year and he called her, swearing to and at her, that he had just gotten into an accident (his fault) and expected her to drop everything and magically appear at his side like a freaking genie. When she didn’t even react to him cursing her out I realized that was how he spoke to her regularly. Since then it’s only gotten worse. He started driving a motorcycle (drunk) so at least his odds of taking someone else out with him aren’t as high. He got his DUI when he over corrected (due to being drunk) and wiped out. He didn’t hit anyone and didn’t get hurt himself but he was too drunk to realize that his bike was fine and the cops ticketed him. We hoped it would knock some sense into him but nope – more playing the victim.

I have two other siblings, one is a Marine and the other just finished her teaching degree debt free.

[Spiffy]

These kinds of children (men) who leach may be more common than we think. My coworker has a 20s yr old son like this and the family just seems to enable it. He's been in involved in drugs, etc. Family struggles to support him financially. In and out of rehab, changes jobs like the rest of us change clothes. Debt, problems and more problems.

I know a several more of these kinds of guys unable to launch into adulthood despite being halfway through their lives. Parents just keep footing the bill.

I think this kind of thing is getting more common. I know several people still supporting their adult children. A coworker has two children, one has a high paying job, other lives with the coworker's mother. She pays for both of their phones, car insurance. etc. Also buys all of the grandkid's school supplies and clothes. My FIL supports my half BIL completely. BIL (and random girlfriend) lives for free in house owned by FIL across the street and can't even be bothered to mow the lawn. FIL walks across the street to do it for him. FIL also adopted BIL's child because he can't be bothered to take responsibility himself. Another much older friend in his late 80s was bemoaning the fact that he still send money on a monthly basis to his adult daughter who his married with children. I about died when I heard him talking about the grandkids' planned visit this summer. He said " I sure hope the nanny comes with them."

[mm1970]

The father of these guys proposed that they start paying some of the utilities and the two of them had a hissy fit and 'threatened' to leave! Hahahha, then told the father all the places they could go and live for free! OMG, I would have told them to pack their bags and GO, GO, GO! This was several years ago and they are still there.

Funny-- my 18-year-old daughter threw a tantrum on the 25th of December when I was unwilling to give her money she hadn't earned. She announced she was leaving and that I'd never see her again, and my response (now that she's 18) was "that actually works for me". Since then she has not returned.

I'm not a fan of being verbally, emotionally, socially, psychologically, financially, and occasionally even physically abused. Until she turned 18 the law required that I not respond in kind and that I support her financially and allow her continued access to my home regardless of her behavior. The conditions of our adoption also required that I never lay a hand on her even in self defense. However, once she turned 18 I was no longer required to be a punching bag or ATM.

If having a positive relationship with me isn't important to her, I refuse to allow it to be important to me. My fucks stepped right into a row (how grateful I am to have them well trained) and I began executing Escape Plan Alpha.

It was too late at night to make a hardware store run, but I changed the locks the next day and got myself off the car title and alerted the neighborhood watch the following day. On the third day my ego rose from the dead because I got all her belongings boxed up and moved to a storage shed. In exchange for her signature on the storage shed contract, I gave up the hostage I'd taken: the last of the money I'd saved for her college (which she hadn't yet succeeded in stealing and spending on lowlifes). She's still on my health insurance for the calendar year and I paid for her wisdom tooth surgery earlier in January, however I'm no longer paying for any vehicle related expenses. I've had no further contact from her aside from a phone call after her wisdom tooth surgery to thank me for making it happen (I can't imagine who put her up to it-- this brat doesn't experience gratitude much less express it; of course she was on pain meds so that could have changed her behavior).

Since then I've been gradually restoring the house to its pre-brat condition. Five doors need to be replaced due to having been irreparably damaged, one jamb must be replaced due to having been ripped entirely off and snapped. I'm doing drywall repair, filling in multiple holes she bashed or gouged in the walls. A room will have to be entirely repainted and the carpets in two rooms removed and replaced. I was able to temporarily salvage the blinds and curtain rods although all are damaged.

The Venomous Spaz Beast and I are living happily ever after. I haven't hosted any big dinner parties yet but had a couple people over for dinner yesterday evening. Gradually things are falling back into place. I'm replenishing the 'stache at the same time. Overall I expected to bounce back a lot faster however shock is real. The VSB is still adjusting and will have to repeat the Canine Good Citizen test, but seems to be happier with my daughter gone and more attention and lap time for her.

Well, this makes me sad and happy at the same time.  Sad at what you went through, and sad that she is the way she is.  Because: why?  Sometimes what happens early in life can completely fuck up your life.  And you can't MAKE someone want a normal life.

But happy that you and VSB have peace.

I was 30 when I had my wisdom teeth pulled.  Those drugs are some good stuff - I was HAPPY.  EVERYONE was my friend and I wanted to thank everyone.

[BeautifulDay]

Lots of shame to pass around today...

Call my mom and she tells me that my father co-signed brother 1's home loan a while back.  In the last few months brother 1 got behind on his mortgage because wife wasn't able to work temporarily (emergency fund???).  Missed payment(s) hurt father's credit.  Yesterday father was trying to co-sign a loan for niece - daughter of brother 2.  Brother 2 can't cosign because his credit is crap. He can't pay his bills and is always borrowing from father while living a super spendy lifestyle. Father is turned down for the car loan because of brother 1's missed house payment.

This makes me crazy! Father is in his 80s. He will never retire because of this shit.

These two brothers aren't the only sibling mooches.  Big family and lots of mooching.

Sure hope my siblings have kids who will pay for their retirement.  I'm not going to help them.

To make things worse loan application required dad to drive to my town where brother 2 also lives.  Dad didn't even mentioned that he was coming to town. I've lived here 8 years and dad has come to see me twice.  But he comes up all the time to see brother 2.  I'm treated like a practical stranger.  My best guess - I'm not needy.  Often referred to as the black sheep of my family.  My big crime... doing my own thing i.e. Taking care of myself.

** modified to change consigned to co-signed

[mustachepungoeshere]

Lots of shame to pass around today...

Call my mom and she tells me that my father consigned brother 1's home loan a while back.  In the last few months brother 1 got behind on his mortgage because wife wasn't able to work temporarily (emergency fund???).  Missed payment(s) hurt father's credit.  Yesterday father was trying to consign a loan for niece - daughter of brother 2.  Brother 2 can't cosign because his credit is crap. He can't pay his bills and is always borrowing from father while living a super spendy lifestyle. Father is turned down for the car loan because of brother 1's missed house payment.

This makes me crazy! Father is in his 80s. He will never retire because of this shit.

These two brothers aren't the only sibling mooches.  Big family and lots of mooching.

Sure hope my siblings have kids who will pay for their retirement.  I'm not going to help them.

To make things worse loan application required dad to drive to my town where brother 2 also lives.  Dad didn't even mentioned that he was coming to town. I've lived here 8 years and dad has come to see me twice.  But he comes up all the time to see brother 2.  I'm treated like a practical stranger.  My best guess - I'm not needy.  Often referred to as the black sheep of my family.  My big crime... doing my own thing i.e. Taking care of myself.

White sheep of the family. The only one with their act together.

[PMG]

I am mystified by parents helping adult kids!  Ive been helping my parents financially since I was a teenager.

I have noticed, with friends who live with four family units on the same property, kid raised by grandparents. Grandpa doing all the work, paying all the bills from both her and Grandma's salary. Grandpa has some seriously manipulative control over everyone. 39 yo daughter got a job and he was pissed that she didn't think he could provide for her. She desperately wanted something that didn't come with strings attached. He didn't speak to her for a year, used her 10 year old kid as a go between.

[jinga nation]

Lots of shame to pass around today...

Call my mom and she tells me that my father consigned brother 1's home loan a while back.  In the last few months brother 1 got behind on his mortgage because wife wasn't able to work temporarily (emergency fund???).  Missed payment(s) hurt father's credit.  Yesterday father was trying to consign a loan for niece - daughter of brother 2.  Brother 2 can't cosign because his credit is crap. He can't pay his bills and is always borrowing from father while living a super spendy lifestyle. Father is turned down for the car loan because of brother 1's missed house payment.

This makes me crazy! Father is in his 80s. He will never retire because of this shit.

These two brothers aren't the only sibling mooches.  Big family and lots of mooching.

Sure hope my siblings have kids who will pay for their retirement.  I'm not going to help them.

To make things worse loan application required dad to drive to my town where brother 2 also lives.  Dad didn't even mentioned that he was coming to town. I've lived here 8 years and dad has come to see me twice.  But he comes up all the time to see brother 2.  I'm treated like a practical stranger.  My best guess - I'm not needy.  Often referred to as the black sheep of my family.  My big crime... doing my own thing i.e. Taking care of myself.

White sheep of the family. The only one with their act together.

Black Sheep is the correct term. @BeautifulDay is probably the only one in the family with bank accounts in the black, credit rating super high.

It's high time that we Mustachians regard ourselves as the black sheep in consumer culture, the outliers, the mutations from $pendypant$ World, the recessives who got a double dose of frugality genes.

[ixtap]

My parents appreciate that I can take care of myself and pamper them occasionally. Imagine my surprise when they first expressed this appreciation in words while I was in grad school!

On the other hand, the ILs just don't know how to have a relationship with us if we don't need anything from them. We have had two visits from them in 8 years, which bring the running total to 3 since they helped DH move for his first job after college.

[Dave1442397]

You ought to check to see if the neighbors have the same problem. I know someone who kept blowing up electronics. Power surges that seemed to affect them but not the neighbors.

In the end it was a problem specific to their house. Bad grounding revealed after minor fire.

Way ahead of you :) House isn't perfect by any means, but the whole neighborhood has the problem too. It's the grid. They did do something to the grounding a long time ago which helped, I'm guessing the box wasn't properly grounded? So instead of spectacular deaths, they get slow electronic deaths.

They could install a voltage regulator to prevent the issues that damage electronics - https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/product-range-presentation/63377-surevolt-%E2%84%A2automatic-voltage-regulator/

[Just Joe]

My parents appreciate that I can take care of myself and pamper them occasionally. Imagine my surprise when they first expressed this appreciation in words while I was in grad school!

On the other hand, the ILs just don't know how to have a relationship with us if we don't need anything from them. We have had two visits from them in 8 years, which bring the running total to 3 since they helped DH move for his first job after college.

It happens. It works that way in my family too. If you read the whole thread here there are some sad stories.

[accountingteacher]

Lots of shame to pass around today...

Call my mom and she tells me that my father co-signed brother 1's home loan a while back.  In the last few months brother 1 got behind on his mortgage because wife wasn't able to work temporarily (emergency fund???).  Missed payment(s) hurt father's credit.  Yesterday father was trying to co-sign a loan for niece - daughter of brother 2.  Brother 2 can't cosign because his credit is crap. He can't pay his bills and is always borrowing from father while living a super spendy lifestyle. Father is turned down for the car loan because of brother 1's missed house payment.

This makes me crazy! Father is in his 80s. He will never retire because of this shit.

These two brothers aren't the only sibling mooches.  Big family and lots of mooching.

Sure hope my siblings have kids who will pay for their retirement.  I'm not going to help them.

To make things worse loan application required dad to drive to my town where brother 2 also lives.  Dad didn't even mentioned that he was coming to town. I've lived here 8 years and dad has come to see me twice.  But he comes up all the time to see brother 2.  I'm treated like a practical stranger.  My best guess - I'm not needy.  Often referred to as the black sheep of my family.  My big crime... doing my own thing i.e. Taking care of myself.

** modified to change consigned to co-signed

Thank you for sharing this.  It has taken me almost 8 years but I have finally convinced my husband to embrace his 'black sheepishness'.  Stories like yours help.

[Sibley]

You ought to check to see if the neighbors have the same problem. I know someone who kept blowing up electronics. Power surges that seemed to affect them but not the neighbors.

In the end it was a problem specific to their house. Bad grounding revealed after minor fire.

Way ahead of you :) House isn't perfect by any means, but the whole neighborhood has the problem too. It's the grid. They did do something to the grounding a long time ago which helped, I'm guessing the box wasn't properly grounded? So instead of spectacular deaths, they get slow electronic deaths.

They could install a voltage regulator to prevent the issues that damage electronics - https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/product-range-presentation/63377-surevolt-%E2%84%A2automatic-voltage-regulator/

I'll be perfectly honest, given some of the other problems that my family is dealing with, we don't have capacity to do anything about the power. It's not bad enough to rise to the top of "needs attention" pile. Getting old sucks.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Well, this makes me sad and happy at the same time.  Sad at what you went through, and sad that she is the way she is.  Because: why?  Sometimes what happens early in life can completely fuck up your life.  And you can't MAKE someone want a normal life.

But happy that you and VSB have peace.

I was 30 when I had my wisdom teeth pulled.  Those drugs are some good stuff - I was HAPPY.  EVERYONE was my friend and I wanted to thank everyone.

That would explain it.

I had mine done at around age 20. Three of them froze properly. The last one did not. It wasn't the worst pain I've ever experienced: I rated it as only a 7 or 8 on a scale of 1 to 10. There are probably still finger marks in the chair arms, but it wasn't from the discomfort, the blood and bits of bone everywhere, or the TMJ joint on one side of my jaw unhinging like a python's. It was because the dental surgeon started humming and singing show tunes while he worked. Now, he'd been setting off my gay-dar for quite a while and when he started belting out Eponine's big solo "On My Own" from "Les Miserables" he pretty much removed all doubt. I really didn't care about his personal life, and his singing voice was actually pretty good, but his choice of repertoire was giving me TMI problems to go along with the TMJ problems. I got through the experience by fantasizing about all the different ways I could take his scalpel away and use it violently. But to this day I have flashbacks every time I hear that song.

From a superstitious perspective I kind of set myself up for the experience by agreeing to have the dental surgery done on the 13th day of the month, but since it was a Wednesday in April instead of a Friday in October I figured I was probably all right. Realistically, there's probably no such thing as a good day to pay someone to gouge teeth out of your jawbone without sewing up the holes left behind.

Afterwards I drove myself to university to turn in an assignment and take a test; it was safe to drive because all they used was injectable local anesthetic which wore off a couple hours later. I drooled a bit until that happened and probably looked kind of ridiculous sitting in the class. There were some pain pills to start in the evening, but after trying one and realizing they don't work on me I ignored the rest because I decided they were placebos so I ignored them. Oil of cloves worked much better. Subsequent surgeries, including two ACL replacements which I rate as a 4 and a 3 on the pain scale, I handled with basic ice and Ibuprofen.

I find that opiates, for me, have zero effect on actual pain and in my opinion just make it more annoying. One of my mutations, I suppose, or maybe it's my lack of faith making the placebo effect not work. I get all the unpleasant side effects including nausea, constipation, cognitive impairment, and the desire to cause massive physical and verbal damage to others. But not one bit of the joy.

[Sibley]

I find that opiates, for me, have zero effect on actual pain and in my opinion just make it more annoying. One of my mutations, I suppose, or maybe it's my lack of faith making the placebo effect not work. I get all the unpleasant side effects including nausea, constipation, cognitive impairment, and the desire to cause massive physical and verbal damage to others. But not one bit of the joy.

You are not alone there. Though they do make me fall asleep, or maybe lose consciousness? Regardless, I'm out.

[ixtap]

Closer to Grim Squeakers story without the adoption, I keep an eye on a teen mother. She always forgets to take diapers out and about, but we are spending today sitting in the courthouse because Dad brought the kid back with a diaper rash. I hand the kid a sippy cup, only to notice large cubes in the cup. Mom is chipping up vegetables to out in the sippy cup. And recently told me the kid will never have cow's milk while feeding the kid Alfredo sauce.

The kid is doing as well as any kid in the situation, and has a slew of caseworkers, but I am learning just how judgemental I really am.

I have also mastered not carrying any cash or plastic so that it is easier to say no to requests. Just dropped a hint about buyer her lunch, but gee darn, I had to take my purse out to the car because I couldn't bring the form from my own lunch in.

I do buy meals occasionally, I just won't be manipulated into doing it.

[Cressida]

I had mine done at around age 20. Three of them froze properly. The last one did not. It wasn't the worst pain I've ever experienced: I rated it as only a 7 or 8 on a scale of 1 to 10. There are probably still finger marks in the chair arms, but it wasn't from the discomfort, the blood and bits of bone everywhere, or the TMJ joint on one side of my jaw unhinging like a python's. It was because the dental surgeon started humming and singing show tunes while he worked. Now, he'd been setting off my gay-dar for quite a while and when he started belting out Eponine's big solo "On My Own" from "Les Miserables" he pretty much removed all doubt. I really didn't care about his personal life, and his singing voice was actually pretty good, but his choice of repertoire was giving me TMI problems to go along with the TMJ problems. I got through the experience by fantasizing about all the different ways I could take his scalpel away and use it violently. But to this day I have flashbacks every time I hear that song.

oh my god, I would be in jail for homicide if this had happened to me. I admire your coping skills.

[Prairie Stash]

Lots of shame to pass around today...

Call my mom and she tells me that my father consigned brother 1's home loan a while back.  In the last few months brother 1 got behind on his mortgage because wife wasn't able to work temporarily (emergency fund???).  Missed payment(s) hurt father's credit.  Yesterday father was trying to consign a loan for niece - daughter of brother 2.  Brother 2 can't cosign because his credit is crap. He can't pay his bills and is always borrowing from father while living a super spendy lifestyle. Father is turned down for the car loan because of brother 1's missed house payment.

This makes me crazy! Father is in his 80s. He will never retire because of this shit.

These two brothers aren't the only sibling mooches.  Big family and lots of mooching.

Sure hope my siblings have kids who will pay for their retirement.  I'm not going to help them.

To make things worse loan application required dad to drive to my town where brother 2 also lives.  Dad didn't even mentioned that he was coming to town. I've lived here 8 years and dad has come to see me twice.  But he comes up all the time to see brother 2.  I'm treated like a practical stranger.  My best guess - I'm not needy.  Often referred to as the black sheep of my family.  My big crime... doing my own thing i.e. Taking care of myself.

White sheep of the family. The only one with their act together.

Black Sheep is the correct term. @BeautifulDay is probably the only one in the family with bank accounts in the black, credit rating super high.

It's high time that we Mustachians regard ourselves as the black sheep in consumer culture, the outliers, the mutations from $pendypant$ World, the recessives who got a double dose of frugality genes.

Black sheep means you're a non-conformist. Its not derogatory or bad, it means you stick out for being unique (some people consider being unique bad I guess). If you look at a flock of sheep, the black are noticeable, the white ones are boring and blend together. This is from historical times when everyone had white sheep because it was easier to dye their wool. Black Sheep have wool that changes colour with age, its harder to process so they were less likely to be kept as breeding stock.

Would you rather be like everyone else and a white sheep? Or stand out from the crowd and be the black sheep? Being the black sheep is a compliment, being called a white sheep in a family of spendypants is an insult.

[Abundant life]

Lots of shame to pass around today...

Call my mom and she tells me that my father consigned brother 1's home loan a while back.  In the last few months brother 1 got behind on his mortgage because wife wasn't able to work temporarily (emergency fund???).  Missed payment(s) hurt father's credit.  Yesterday father was trying to consign a loan for niece - daughter of brother 2.  Brother 2 can't cosign because his credit is crap. He can't pay his bills and is always borrowing from father while living a super spendy lifestyle. Father is turned down for the car loan because of brother 1's missed house payment.

This makes me crazy! Father is in his 80s. He will never retire because of this shit.

These two brothers aren't the only sibling mooches.  Big family and lots of mooching.

Sure hope my siblings have kids who will pay for their retirement.  I'm not going to help them.

To make things worse loan application required dad to drive to my town where brother 2 also lives.  Dad didn't even mentioned that he was coming to town. I've lived here 8 years and dad has come to see me twice.  But he comes up all the time to see brother 2.  I'm treated like a practical stranger.  My best guess - I'm not needy.  Often referred to as the black sheep of my family.  My big crime... doing my own thing i.e. Taking care of myself.

White sheep of the family. The only one with their act together.

Black Sheep is the correct term. @BeautifulDay is probably the only one in the family with bank accounts in the black, credit rating super high.

It's high time that we Mustachians regard ourselves as the black sheep in consumer culture, the outliers, the mutations from $pendypant$ World, the recessives who got a double dose of frugality genes.

Black sheep means you're a non-conformist. Its not derogatory or bad, it means you stick out for being unique (some people consider being unique bad I guess). If you look at a flock of sheep, the black are noticeable, the white ones are boring and blend together. This is from historical times when everyone had white sheep because it was easier to dye their wool. Black Sheep have wool that changes colour with age, its harder to process so they were less likely to be kept as breeding stock.

Would you rather be like everyone else and a white sheep? Or stand out from the crowd and be the black sheep? Being the black sheep is a compliment, being called a white sheep in a family of spendypants is an insult.

Or as they say in Mexico, the black rice!

[SwordGuy]

You ought to check to see if the neighbors have the same problem. I know someone who kept blowing up electronics. Power surges that seemed to affect them but not the neighbors.

In the end it was a problem specific to their house. Bad grounding revealed after minor fire.

Way ahead of you :) House isn't perfect by any means, but the whole neighborhood has the problem too. It's the grid. They did do something to the grounding a long time ago which helped, I'm guessing the box wasn't properly grounded? So instead of spectacular deaths, they get slow electronic deaths.

They could install a voltage regulator to prevent the issues that damage electronics - https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/product-range-presentation/63377-surevolt-%E2%84%A2automatic-voltage-regulator/

Voltage regulators are great.   Kept my electronics going when I was in Ethiopia for a year.   

[eliza]

Since I hijacked another thread to post about my spendypants sister and BIL, I thought I'd share my favorite recent story here.

My BIL like his toys.  A lot.  (My sister also likes to spend money, but this particular story isn't about her.)  He has a BMW, a top-end Harley, a half-dozen expensive guitars, every video gaming system known to man, a giant TV that he had to have that is way too big for the size rooms they have and is pretty much unwatchable, etc, etc, etc.

His newest thing: he's going to buy an airplane. Because, "It will be cheaper and easier than traveling by car for weekend getaways (that are ~four hours away)."   

WTF?  I find that hard to believe.

[kaypinkHH]

@eliza I'm just waiting until my BIL says something similar.

Mr HH's brother and his wife are living the big life! They have a financed LAMBOURGINI, 2 giant jeep things (also financed),  a McMansion, giant tvs (at one point they had 6 tvs in their house..for 2 people). All nice high end furniture, and appliances. Now they have 2 kids, and their house is FULL to the brim with toys, will probably need a new house soon.

They own a rental property but it is currently vacant (looking for new tenants).

Their monthly burn rate at the moment must be INSANE.

But yet they can't afford to move back to a LCOL area to be near family because the decrease in income will be too much to bear. #priorities.

[Roadrunner53]

We have a factory in our town where machine operators were making $80K and up depending on OT. A lot of these people were married (both working in the same department) and were living the life you describe: McMansions, BMW's, exotic vacations, motorcycles, boats, you name it, they bought it. Well, one day, without any notice they closed this department down. Not the whole factory but there were too many people to absorb so they all got laid off. BOOM! Where do you get a factory job where both husband and wife can make that kind of money per year? Rude awakening. A lot of them had to have a serious lifestyle adjustment. They probably didn't save in the 401K's either. If they did, they probably drained it dry to get by. Jobs come and go and the gravy train doesn't run forever.

[MgoSam]

We have a factory in our town where machine operators were making $80K and up depending on OT.

 Jobs come and go and the gravy train doesn't run forever.

Yup! It's really unfortunate how many manufacturing jobs have gone away over the past few decades but what really annoys me is how little many of the workers saved for such a downturn. I know a guy that went to ND and was bragging about how much money he was earning. Well he's back and just as broke because while he was earning a ton of money, he was spending it just as fast and is in roughly the same spot he was in.

[eliza]

We have a factory in our town where machine operators were making $80K and up depending on OT.

 Jobs come and go and the gravy train doesn't run forever.

Yup! It's really unfortunate how many manufacturing jobs have gone away over the past few decades but what really annoys me is how little many of the workers saved for such a downturn. I know a guy that went to ND and was bragging about how much money he was earning. Well he's back and just as broke because while he was earning a ton of money, he was spending it just as fast and is in roughly the same spot he was in.

This! So much this!  My hometown has what used to be a large factory for a big corporation.  For over a decade they've been scaling down operations and moving more and more production overseas and to lower cost states.  I have a cousin that worked there making ~$100,000 a year doing relatively unskilled factory work.  He was let go in the latest round of layoffs and was somehow shocked that this happened.  He apparently had done nothing financially to prepare for the eventuality.  So now, he'll be lucky if he can get a job at $40,000 - $50,000 a year and just doesn't understand how he and his wife (who works and makes ~$50,000) will keep up with the payment on the house, three cars, boat, ATV, etc., etc.  Ummm, you don't.  You could barely afford your lifestyle before, you definitely can't now.

[Just Joe]

All reasons to avoid the payments lifestyle. The thought of managing a half dozen loans is worrying to me. That's the best part of being mortgage free in a few more years. Unemployment would be far less stressful. Any old job, and a careful budget would keep the lights on and the taxes paid. 

[Roadrunner53]

Financial education should be taught in school. People just don't get it that one day they will get old and if they think Social Security is going to cut it, they are WRONG! Seems financial education should be right up there with reading, writing and math skills. Many athletes get millions of dollars in their contracts. They have a short career and blew all their money along the way! There are not too many careers for washed up athletes to make millions of dollars once their contracts expire. Where is the common sense?

[ringer707]

We have a factory in our town where machine operators were making $80K and up depending on OT. A lot of these people were married (both working in the same department) and were living the life you describe: McMansions, BMW's, exotic vacations, motorcycles, boats, you name it, they bought it. Well, one day, without any notice they closed this department down. Not the whole factory but there were too many people to absorb so they all got laid off. BOOM! Where do you get a factory job where both husband and wife can make that kind of money per year? Rude awakening. A lot of them had to have a serious lifestyle adjustment. They probably didn't save in the 401K's either. If they did, they probably drained it dry to get by. Jobs come and go and the gravy train doesn't run forever.

I remember watching a segment on CBS Sunday morning (maybe last year) about the downturn in oil production and how it was affecting oil rig workers. One man was making something like $1000-$1200 PER DAY and was saying how he could no longer make his truck payments. He then said that last time this happened he and his wife almost lost their house. First of all, why do you have truck payments? With money like that, you could easily save and buy a fully loaded jacked-up behemoth in cash. Also, clearly this has happened to you before, so why didn't you put away some of the money?!

[Dr. Hasslein: Russian Bot Commander]

We have a factory in our town where machine operators were making $80K and up depending on OT. A lot of these people were married (both working in the same department) and were living the life you describe: McMansions, BMW's, exotic vacations, motorcycles, boats, you name it, they bought it. Well, one day, without any notice they closed this department down. Not the whole factory but there were too many people to absorb so they all got laid off. BOOM! Where do you get a factory job where both husband and wife can make that kind of money per year? Rude awakening. A lot of them had to have a serious lifestyle adjustment. They probably didn't save in the 401K's either. If they did, they probably drained it dry to get by. Jobs come and go and the gravy train doesn't run forever.

I remember watching a segment on CBS Sunday morning (maybe last year) about the downturn in oil production and how it was affecting oil rig workers. One man was making something like $1000-$1200 PER DAY and was saying how he could no longer make his truck payments. He then said that last time this happened he and his wife almost lost their house. First of all, why do you have truck payments? With money like that, you could easily save and buy a fully loaded jacked-up behemoth in cash. Also, clearly this has happened to you before, so why didn't you put away some of the money?!

Oh boy, I see you're not familiar with oil field types. They spend and spend until they get laid off.

[saguaro]

All reasons to avoid the payments lifestyle. The thought of managing a half dozen loans is worrying to me. That's the best part of being mortgage free in a few more years. Unemployment would be far less stressful. Any old job, and a careful budget would keep the lights on and the taxes paid.

ITA on this.   DH lost his job during the Great Recession and was out of work for over 2 years.   We managed to keep all bills paid, including the mortgage, paid off the credit card, and build some savings during that time.   Had both cars paid off, mortgage payment was low for an HCOL area (bought townhome aka "starter home" in mid 90s and decided to stay there) and little credit card debt (one card, low balance, that's the one we paid off).   Smaller home meant lower energy costs and the fact that DH wasn't making his long commute anymore saved on gas.   And we still went ahead with replacing windows on our home for which we contracted for before DH lost his job.   Windows were leaking so the job had to be done, but we paid for it in cash.

Now DH's sister's husband makes very good money when he has a job.   Unfortunately the last 15 years, he's been in and out of work since losing the one steady corporate job he had for 25 years.   Not his fault, just a lot of corporate restructurings, in one case the well known company just went bankrupt overnight.  Several of the jobs have been contract work.  They have had some lean times where they cut back but once BIL has a job they go right back to spending on boats, a horse, a trailer for the horse, the Silverado to pull the trailer, stable expenses, plus two condos on top of their regular home and let's not forget the BMW.  In spite of the lean times and constant churn in jobs, they just spend.  We just learned they had to pull out of their retirement funds to pay bills during the last round of unemployment.   BIL just turned 67 and is still working, no change in all the spending.  I can see it getting pretty tough when he finally has to stop for good. 

[Just Joe]

The payment lifestyle was a really important lesson that we taught our kids. People with fancy things are not always rich.

I wasn't raised like that. My parents were mostly cash spenders rather than payment spenders.

It didn't dawn on me until I was much older how other people manage their money sometimes. Duh!

[Dollar Slice]

This is more of a "relatives who sort of get it" post... One of my parents told me a funny story about writing/depositing an extremely large check (six figures) in the process of deciding to pay off a home equity loan. Apparently they had put all their home renovations and at least one brand new luxury car (BMW) into an adjustable rate home equity loan, because something something deductible interest something something. (I have no idea if the math actually worked on that one, but they probably made out like bandits by investing instead of paying it off the last couple years.) Now that deduction is gone and (this is the "getting it" part) they cashed out some investments and wrote a check to pay it off. Apparently bank tellers are suspicious of women who walk into banks to pay off six-figure loans. And now everyone at the bank calls them by name and wants to sell them some high-end investment services because they think they must have just inherited a ton of money.

[mustachepungoeshere]

We have a factory in our town where machine operators were making $80K and up depending on OT. A lot of these people were married (both working in the same department) and were living the life you describe: McMansions, BMW's, exotic vacations, motorcycles, boats, you name it, they bought it. Well, one day, without any notice they closed this department down. Not the whole factory but there were too many people to absorb so they all got laid off. BOOM! Where do you get a factory job where both husband and wife can make that kind of money per year? Rude awakening. A lot of them had to have a serious lifestyle adjustment. They probably didn't save in the 401K's either. If they did, they probably drained it dry to get by. Jobs come and go and the gravy train doesn't run forever.

I remember watching a segment on CBS Sunday morning (maybe last year) about the downturn in oil production and how it was affecting oil rig workers. One man was making something like $1000-$1200 PER DAY and was saying how he could no longer make his truck payments. He then said that last time this happened he and his wife almost lost their house. First of all, why do you have truck payments? With money like that, you could easily save and buy a fully loaded jacked-up behemoth in cash. Also, clearly this has happened to you before, so why didn't you put away some of the money?!

Oh boy, I see you're not familiar with oil field types. They spend and spend until they get laid off.

And mining types.

As mines in the Hunter have shed staff, mates of mine opted for FIFO work to maintain the lifestyle.

That means working three weeks on, one week off, to pay for apartments, cars and gym memberships that are only used for a week every month.

[stashja]

Well, it’s happened again. My 32-year-old brother got fired from his good, well-paying job in L.A. ... for cause. He kept doing something on company hours that he had been told not to do. My parents explain it as a good thing because now he can go back to school, get an MBA, etc etc. So they gave him $10,000 and are paying the rent on his apartment while he “studies.” (He’s been trying that intermittently since 2007.)

I don’t envy him the money. I don’t need money. My partner and I live well frugally. But they are setting my brother up for absolute disaster. They just taught him that it’s not necessary to make an effort to remain employed. I don’t want him living on the street (and will never take him in. He despises me, treats my partner as if he doesn’t exist, and has explicitly stated he would never live in our “boring” midwestern area.)

Am I right to be mad at them for helping him to create his inability to survive in he real world? I can’t tell anyone except the forum how mad and worried I am.

[eliza]

Well, it’s happened again. My 32-year-old brother got fired from his good, well-paying job in L.A. ... for cause. He kept doing something on company hours that he had been told not to do. My parents explain it as a good thing because now he can go back to school, get an MBA, etc etc. So they gave him $10,000 and are paying the rent on his apartment while he “studies.” (He’s been trying that intermittently since 2007.)

I don’t envy him the money. I don’t need money. My partner and I live well frugally. But they are setting my brother up for absolute disaster. They just taught him that it’s not necessary to make an effort to remain employed. I don’t want him living on the street (and will never take him in. He despises me, treats my partner as if he doesn’t exist, and has explicitly stated he would never live in our “boring” midwestern area.)

Am I right to be mad at them for helping him to create his inability to survive in he real world? I can’t tell anyone except the forum how mad and worried I am.

I think that it is reasonable to be mad at them.  It's like family constantly enabling an addict.  Eventually it's all going to come crashing down. 

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Well, it’s happened again. My 32-year-old brother got fired from his good, well-paying job in L.A. ... for cause. He kept doing something on company hours that he had been told not to do. My parents explain it as a good thing because now he can go back to school, get an MBA, etc etc. So they gave him $10,000 and are paying the rent on his apartment while he “studies.” (He’s been trying that intermittently since 2007.)

I don’t envy him the money. I don’t need money. My partner and I live well frugally. But they are setting my brother up for absolute disaster. They just taught him that it’s not necessary to make an effort to remain employed. I don’t want him living on the street (and will never take him in. He despises me, treats my partner as if he doesn’t exist, and has explicitly stated he would never live in our “boring” midwestern area.)

Am I right to be mad at them for helping him to create his inability to survive in he real world? I can’t tell anyone except the forum how mad and worried I am.

Some people learn the hard way, regardless of what anyone else tries to tell them or model for them. Sounds like your parents and brother are in that space. Nothing you can do about it, and worrying certainly won't help.

[chaskavitch]

DH and I cancelled cable earlier this year, both for savings and because we were never watching it.  We just complained about the commercials and wasted $5 at a time renting movies we were too lazy to Redbox or too impatient to wait for on Netflix.  We've been surprisingly happy with it.  I mean, now we're behind on Game of Thrones, and I miss Jeopardy, but otherwise we have much less time wasted watching shows we don't care about just because they're on.

My mother-in-law just bought DH a HD TV antenna for his birthday.  She actually said "I know you don't want this, but if I'm going to be coming up once a month, I need to be able to watch my football." 

Why would you spend $80 (I just looked it up) on your son's 30th birthday on a present you KNOW he doesn't want, and also not get him anything else?  He even sent out a list of things he needs (tools, new work pants, etc.) so we wouldn't get more clutter that wouldn't be used, so I know she had other options.  She does like to buy presents, it's definitely her love language, so that makes it even stranger to me.

DH waited until she was out of earshot and said "I'm kind of sad about the antenna", which made me extra sad.  Plus now he has to make the time to install it either on our roof or in our attic, neither of which tasks are appealing in the slightest.  She might not get her football this year anyway because of our sheer laziness.

So, we have neither put up this antenna nor gotten rid of it.  MIL is in town this weekend, and has generously informed us that she's giving us her recently deceased mother's TV to put in our guest room.  I think she falls asleep with the TV on at home, and also watches late night talk shows when she can't sleep, and wants those options when she comes up for a few days every month or two.  I'm not sure what she thinks she's going to be watching on said TV, though.  Netflix, maybe? 

Just a note - my MIL is a great lady and so nice, I just don't relate to a lot of the things she values that she thinks WE should think are important too.  Also she keeps giving our kid singing stuffed animals for holidays...

[Dicey]

My favourite period of history is between the two world wars and you still read about women of independent means then.

@shelivesthedream, have you read the Maisie Dobbs books by Jacqueline Winspear? Right up this alley.

[shelivesthedream]

My favourite period of history is between the two world wars and you still read about women of independent means then.

@shelivesthedream, have you read the Maisie Dobbs books by Jacqueline Winspear? Right up this alley.

Thanks for the tip! I've added them to my book list.

[Goldielocks]

chaskavitch -- my SIL kept giving our son, aged 14, stuffed animals for birthday / christmas.  He received 3 of them in 2 years.  She lives 4 miles away, so sees him regularly.

Teenage boys aren't really into stuffed animals, but it was from her MLM, so I guess that's ok / worse / IDK....  confused.