Relatives who just don't get it

[Imma]

Had to share this one. 

I was texting with my cousin who was upset because despite his applying to many jobs and being qualified, he hasn't gotten any job offers (his spouse works full time and is carrying the load.).  He is currently working 15 hours a week making about $10-12/hr.  Both kids are either in day care full time or going to after school care.  This is because when he finds a full time job he wants to be able to start work right away and he can't if he is taking care of the kids all day (still don't understand that one).  The place he is working part time at offered him full time hours, but he turned it down because he said the amount of money still isn't enough and worth his time.  This has been the situation for more than a year.   When I was texting him, he told me he was treating himself out to lunch because being at home was too depressing.

He was at a mid-range fast food restaurant so I'm imagining he spent about $10-$15 on food.  He didn't seem to see the folly of eating a full hour of earned income while complaining that his hourly rate wasn't high enough.

I understand your frustration, and you're completely right, but I do understand the bold part. At least where I live, there are long waiting lists for child care. If you take your kid out of child care, there's not going to be a place available for them right away when you find a job. It's a huge problem for working parents who lose their job: keeping your kid in day care while you're at home sounds counterproductive, but a new employer isn't going to wait 4 months for you until you have arranged child care.

[BDWW]

Had to share this one. 

I was texting with my cousin who was upset because despite his applying to many jobs and being qualified, he hasn't gotten any job offers (his spouse works full time and is carrying the load.).  He is currently working 15 hours a week making about $10-12/hr.  Both kids are either in day care full time or going to after school care.  This is because when he finds a full time job he wants to be able to start work right away and he can't if he is taking care of the kids all day (still don't understand that one).  The place he is working part time at offered him full time hours, but he turned it down because he said the amount of money still isn't enough and worth his time.  This has been the situation for more than a year.   When I was texting him, he told me he was treating himself out to lunch because being at home was too depressing.

He was at a mid-range fast food restaurant so I'm imagining he spent about $10-$15 on food.  He didn't seem to see the folly of eating a full hour of earned income while complaining that his hourly rate wasn't high enough.

I understand your frustration, and you're completely right, but I do understand the bold part. At least where I live, there are long waiting lists for child care. If you take your kid out of child care, there's not going to be a place available for them right away when you find a job. It's a huge problem for working parents who lose their job: keeping your kid in day care while you're at home sounds counterproductive, but a new employer isn't going to wait 4 months for you until you have arranged child care.

Agreed, around here it's common practice to get on a waiting list the moment you see two blue/pink lines.

[Chesleygirl]

I will send out 2-3 different cards. There's a funny one that only people I think will appreciate it get. There's a more traditional, but not religious, one that everyone else gets. I buy cards after Christmas for the next year, so any left over just get added to the stash for next year. This year, I think there were 4 different cards sent because I was using up leftovers from last year. If anyone complained about the card they got, I'd just take them off the list going forward. They clearly didn't want one. Only happened once. (It was funny the next year when they called to complain that they didn't get one. I'm blunt, I told them why then hung up.)

It is good to know I'm not the only person who's had someone complain about the Christmas card I sent to them. But yes, no need to send cards to people who complain about the card.

[Imma]

I'm starting to get really frustrated with my sister. ...
It makes me not want to spend time with her, if she's just going to keep making these backhanded comments and belittle me for making good choices.

This is sad. Have you told her how you feel? Are you close in other ways? The level of information that she has about your finances is WAY more than my siblings have about mine. [I'm not saying my way is perfect, but that there is a range of information sharing that can work.] There's no law that obliges you to share your retirement plans with your siblings.

If you are presenting your choices as "good" (and hers as "bad"?) then that could be encouraging her to think that making judgements on each other's spending is something that you do.

I'd try to separate out your choices and what is "good" or "smart", just say that it is what works for you. If she comments on your trousers (at a funeral - ouch!), stress that you are not asking her to wear them, and that you don't need to hear about her opinions on them. It's not out of order to say that it's hurtful to hear someone ragging on your trousers. Don't try to justify your choices, why it is smart, what your goals are. Just reiterate that this is your choice (or your trousers) and that you aren't looking for input, make it boring and non-contentious.

Good luck.

The thing is, she doesn't have that much information about my finances.  She knows I make more than her, because she knows what my job is (I don't talk about salary at all), and her own job is pretty low paid.  She knows that I hope to retire early, because I mentioned it once.  She knows that I don't like to spend on crap, because every time we're together, she wants to go shopping and pressure me to buy things "because she knows I can afford it," and I resist buying things I don't want or need.

I never bring these things up with her (for obvious reasons!)  I'm not the one talking about 'good' or 'bad' choices, I'm just trying to stick to my choices, which seems to offend her for no reason.  If my clothes aren't worn out or even out of style, why should I replace them?  Why does she even care what pants I'm wearing?  It's just so stupid.

I know what it's like, I have a sister like that. I'm already not looking forward to Christmas conversations and me being accusing of being greedy all the time. I don't care at all what my sis does with her money - she works hard enough for it and she doesn't ask me for cash - and I would honestly enjoy hearing all about the trips around the world she's taking, as long as she didn't include all those snide remarks about how I'm too greedy to go on holidays. I make different choices and I couldn't care less which choices you make as long as you pay for them yourself.

She doesn't know a lot about my finances either, but she knows we own a house and how much we paid for it, and very roughly how much I make. I work in finance so I help her out with her taxes every year, and last year while filling in her taxes she asked if she made less or more than I did, to which I answered 'slightly more' which is the truth. She was pretty pissed off about that, as she felt her job is way more prestigiouss than mine She chose to work in a very competative industry with 200 candidates for every job. I know she works extremely hard, but I work smart: I don't have to work too hard for my money.

[mm1970]

The level of information my (financially responsible, potential large inheritance on the way because my parents don't spend their huge pile o' cash) family have about my and my husband's financial situation is:
- We are saving money
- We don't need them to give us any money
- They don't need to worry about us
- We can afford for me to take extended maternity leave/be a SAHP for a while (I'm pregnant) if that's what I end up doing

Sometimes my parents pressure me to spend money. My mother wants me to buy lots of expensive maternity clothes. I have bought one new pair of jeans and one charity shop dress thus far. I find other reasons to not spend the money (e.g. "Ugh! All of these maternity clothes are so hideous!" (true) "I don't want to buy them all at once because I want to save up some shopping treats for later in the pregnancy" (true) "I'm waiting to see if my friend who just had her baby wants to keep all of her stuff" (true)).

I would cut WAY WAY back on discussing anything related to money with your sister. I also think it's OK to say out loud: "It makes me not want to spend time with you, if you're just going to keep making these backhanded comments and belittle me for making good my choices." It's a true and fair statement.

Yep.  I'm honestly not sure what my siblings think about my income and financial status.  My favorite sister knows we are good.  Don't know about anyone else.  I live on the opposite coast, so they aren't privy to my spending habits.

We recently evacuated for a week due to the fires.  An aunt said "let me know if you need any help, we can send help!"  That was sweet.  I just said "nah, we've got plenty of money".  I was complaining to my boss for evacuating (it's the change in routine, being stuck in a hotel, inability to cook and eat properly.)  And he said "you can afford it!".  Because he knows.  I said "yep, I'm cheap and that helps me afford it.  But I still hate trying to eat out of a hotel...my digestion does not like it!"

[accountingteacher]

I think this is a pretty common human reaction to difference in general. A lot of people, instead of trying to understand what you are trying to do, why you want to do it and how they could learn and benefit from it,  seem to want to judge or discredit  it. I think it comes from a feeling of insecurity from that person. Every time someone go against their beliefs and comfortable habits, they feel  the need to convince themselves you are wrong at what  you do and what they do is right. In reality, there’s no such thing as right  or wrong, black or white, especially when you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Everytime  I hear someone judging something they don’t know, it rings a bell; why does it bother you that much? Why are you so insecure about it? Why aren’t you interested about it?

I’m not a psychologist though haha, just everyday observations.

I think you've nailed it.  Judging her brother is easier than holding herself accountable.  There's a lot going on there - envy, shame, denial ...

[Chesleygirl]

I'm starting to get really frustrated with my sister. ...
It makes me not want to spend time with her, if she's just going to keep making these backhanded comments and belittle me for making good choices.

This is sad. Have you told her how you feel? Are you close in other ways? The level of information that she has about your finances is WAY more than my siblings have about mine. [I'm not saying my way is perfect, but that there is a range of information sharing that can work.] There's no law that obliges you to share your retirement plans with your siblings.

If you are presenting your choices as "good" (and hers as "bad"?) then that could be encouraging her to think that making judgements on each other's spending is something that you do.

I'd try to separate out your choices and what is "good" or "smart", just say that it is what works for you. If she comments on your trousers (at a funeral - ouch!), stress that you are not asking her to wear them, and that you don't need to hear about her opinions on them. It's not out of order to say that it's hurtful to hear someone ragging on your trousers. Don't try to justify your choices, why it is smart, what your goals are. Just reiterate that this is your choice (or your trousers) and that you aren't looking for input, make it boring and non-contentious.

Good luck.

The thing is, she doesn't have that much information about my finances.  She knows I make more than her, because she knows what my job is (I don't talk about salary at all), and her own job is pretty low paid.  She knows that I hope to retire early, because I mentioned it once.  She knows that I don't like to spend on crap, because every time we're together, she wants to go shopping and pressure me to buy things "because she knows I can afford it," and I resist buying things I don't want or need.

I never bring these things up with her (for obvious reasons!)  I'm not the one talking about 'good' or 'bad' choices, I'm just trying to stick to my choices, which seems to offend her for no reason.  If my clothes aren't worn out or even out of style, why should I replace them?  Why does she even care what pants I'm wearing?  It's just so stupid.

I know what it's like, I have a sister like that. I'm already not looking forward to Christmas conversations and me being accusing of being greedy all the time. I don't care at all what my sis does with her money - she works hard enough for it and she doesn't ask me for cash - and I would honestly enjoy hearing all about the trips around the world she's taking, as long as she didn't include all those snide remarks about how I'm too greedy to go on holidays. I make different choices and I couldn't care less which choices you make as long as you pay for them yourself.

She doesn't know a lot about my finances either, but she knows we own a house and how much we paid for it, and very roughly how much I make. I work in finance so I help her out with her taxes every year, and last year while filling in her taxes she asked if she made less or more than I did, to which I answered 'slightly more' which is the truth. She was pretty pissed off about that, as she felt her job is way more prestigiouss than mine She chose to work in a very competative industry with 200 candidates for every job. I know she works extremely hard, but I work smart: I don't have to work too hard for my money.

That's the choice that people make when they choose a prestigious-sounding career over actual job security. Let her stay jealous.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I have a relative who's visiting from out of town. She's independently wealthy like most of her generation in that branch of the family. Like most in that set, she also didn't have to do a lot to get it as the wealth was produced by someone else's labor. She's accustomed to a much higher standard of living than what I have (which is palatial by Mustachian standards and which satisfies me, particularly since I get to throw a lot of dinner parties and enjoy the exclusive services of a Venomous Spaz Beast).

The gap between my standard of living and what my relative considers appropriate is creates complications. We're in Day 3 of the visit and although the VSB has accepted her she's already going on about how I "need" to renovate my master bathroom and my kitchen and to hire a contractor to do my outdoor work. The minimum necessary redesign she considers appropriate will run about $65,000. I simply cannot justify dipping into the 'stache for that. She's also trying to buy me a "gift" of what amounts to a key item in a major Diderot unity. I do plan to replace a sink that is almost rusted through, and have been doing some preliminary research related to flooring and other things, yet I cannot justify anything but the replacement sink while still assisting my newly-adult daughter in not fucking up her launch and hearing-ear training the VSB.

I'm trying to hold onto the "Didn't-erot" lifestyle. It will permit me greater freedom in a shorter period of time. I do plan to take the VSB on a lengthy road trip next summer (just the VSB, not the daughter), but my relative doesn't understand why the vacation decision means I won't have discretionary spending money for things like renovations.

[jinga nation]

TGS, your relative hasn't sweated in life to understand the level of effort required to produce earnings. And to save after necessary expenses. That's a disconnect that may be far too late to be mended.

I have relatives and friends like this, where the husband works long hours to make the crazy money while the stay-at-home wife loves to dispense advice on life. The kids have flown the coop and idle time creates bullshit unsolicited advice.

I've been in that uncomfortable host position and you reminded me of this:
When Mrs. JingaNation and I purchased our house years back, an estate-sale, I was an entry-level engineer and she an entry-level accountant. We didn't have many possessions, we're simple, but hosted a New Year's Eve party for friends and family.

The never-employed wife of a hard-working friend decided to nit pick our house (we'd lived there 7 months by then) and told us we need to rehab our kitchen and bathrooms ASAP, get rid of the plantation shutters in the living room (which were good money and quality, paid for by the previous owner and blended well with the openness of that part of the house). I was asking why fix it when it ain't broke. We weren't in a position financially for this. Plus I was traveling constantly for work.

Just then, another friend decided to bang on the kitchen faucet repeatedly and his fiancee told him to stop, whereupon he replied that it can be fixed, as we're going to renovate. Then another friend bitched that all we had was a bookshelf sound system and not a 7.1 Dolby surround sound.

Right after midnight I wished everyone well and asked them to either go home, or a sleeping bag as we hadn't furnished the other 2 rooms. My friends finally got the message and apologized. Shit happens, people drink and say stupid things. New year, new lease on life, let it go, fuck it.

A week later the Mrs. and I decided to not host parties for folks who don't respect our property and lifestyle. All parties will henceforth end at sunset and will be outdoors to feed skeeters. We are the couple who enjoy exercise while they love to complain about exercise. In the years since, we've become good friends but we've gravitated to other groups of friends who's life philosophies are more in line with ours.

There's a rule my Dad taught me at a very young age, when I would have sleepovers at the homes of my cousins and friends: Never insult your host, be gracious and helpful so they enjoy your company and ask you to come again.

Some people weren't taught good manners. Some people believe manners are obtained automatically, "there's an app for that" mentality.

[Chesleygirl]

TGS, your relative hasn't sweated in life to understand the level of effort required to produce earnings. And to save after necessary expenses. That's a disconnect that may be far too late to be mended.

I have relatives and close friends like this, where the husband works long hours to make the crazy money while the stay-at-home wife loves to dispense advice on life. The kids have flown the coop and idle time creates bullshit unsolicited advice.

Lots of stay at home moms have been in the workforce, often for many years, so they do understand the level of effort required to produce money. The may even be the money manager for the entire household. So that could be where their advice is coming from.

[jinga nation]

TGS, your relative hasn't sweated in life to understand the level of effort required to produce earnings. And to save after necessary expenses. That's a disconnect that may be far too late to be mended.

I have relatives and close friends like this, where the husband works long hours to make the crazy money while the stay-at-home wife loves to dispense advice on life. The kids have flown the coop and idle time creates bullshit unsolicited advice.

Lots of stay at home moms have been in the workforce, often for many years, so they do understand the level of effort required to produce money. The may even be the money manager for the entire household. So that could be where their advice is coming from.

That is true, but not the case for the annoying wife of a friend. Never worked. Volunteered here and there per her whims. She's proud to proclaim her non-worked status.

In many middle/upper class Indian families, the husband works long hours, after work networking/social/club events. The wife stays home and raises the kids, engages in gossip, goes around shopping for useless shit. This causes a lot of strife in the marriage, as the wife wants to keep up with the social circle and the husband doesn't give a damn about outwardly appearances. Seen this growing up, seen this living in Bombay and South India on my travels. I love to sit and observe, something my hero Mr. Carlin was very astute about.

[Rowellen]

I just received a Christmas card from my parents (ie mum) in the mail today. A $6 card that she paid $1.30 to post and she knows it will be in the bin next week. Not only that but I'm seeing her on Sunday. Just a little thing but so typical of her attitude.  "It was just a couple dollars". *facepalm*

I had a friend that got mad at me one year for sending her one of those boxed Christmas cards. (From a box where each card is the same - more affordable this way). She said it was cheap and that I should have sent her a "Hallmark" Christmas card instead. She was offended because she thought our friendship was more important that I would individually select a special card for her from a card rack at the store. And sending a boxed card was cheap and tacky.  Now that I've posted this I realize people will likely think I made this up. Sadly, I did not.

Now, I still send out boxed cards at Christmas. Because the cost breaks down to about 25 cents per card rather than spending $5.00 or $6.00 on an individual card for each person I know. If I did that, it could easily cost $100 a year just to mail out Christmas cards to all my friends.  The price of greeting cards is just crazy these days.

I believe you. I have heard people complain about similar things although not usually to the person directly.

My mum's $6 card would cover the few that I send plus what my kids give to their classmates. If I want a "heartfelt" message I'll write it myself not buy some generic "to a special daughter" crap.

[Playing with Fire UK]

I'm trying to hold onto the "Didn't-erot" lifestyle.

Excellent phrase. Stealing. Thank you.

[merula]

Lots of stay at home moms have been in the workforce, often for many years, so they do understand the level of effort required to produce money. The may even be the money manager for the entire household. So that could be where their advice is coming from.

This is true, but regardless of past industriousness, people who have more time on their hands have more time to care about things that are absolutely not their business.

Do I get judgment from my friends and family with very full lives of work, family, volunteering, hobbies, travel, whatever? Not nearly as much as I get from people who do less of all of those things.

[Chesleygirl]

Lots of stay at home moms have been in the workforce, often for many years, so they do understand the level of effort required to produce money. The may even be the money manager for the entire household. So that could be where their advice is coming from.

This is true, but regardless of past industriousness, people who have more time on their hands have more time to care about things that are absolutely not their business.

Do I get judgment from my friends and family with very full lives of work, family, volunteering, hobbies, travel, whatever? Not nearly as much as I get from people who do less of all of those things.

Oh God. You are so wrong about that. Many SAHMs have full lives too, filled with family, volunteering, travel and hobbies. They do TONS of volunteer work in the community and especially for schools, which saves the taxpayers money (let's give them a shout out and a thanks!). They also are the busiest people I know especially if they take care of young children during the day. Your comment that their lives are  filled with free time couldn't be further from the truth. I am a SAHM and guess what? I traveled internationally six times over the past five years, to Prague and the United Kingdom. Its so funny that you think SAHMs don't travel. I got a real kick of that one. Sweetie, I don't "do less" than other people. I don't have any more free time on my hands than you people who work at 8 to 5 jobs.  You really should apologize, your comment is the most disgusting thing I've read on here.

[Sibley]

Lots of stay at home moms have been in the workforce, often for many years, so they do understand the level of effort required to produce money. The may even be the money manager for the entire household. So that could be where their advice is coming from.

This is true, but regardless of past industriousness, people who have more time on their hands have more time to care about things that are absolutely not their business.

Do I get judgment from my friends and family with very full lives of work, family, volunteering, hobbies, travel, whatever? Not nearly as much as I get from people who do less of all of those things.

Oh God. You are so wrong about that. Many SAHMs have full lives too, filled with family, volunteering, travel and hobbies. They do TONS of volunteer work in the community and especially for schools, which saves the taxpayers money (let's give them a shout out and a thanks!). They also are the busiest people I know especially if they take care of young children during the day. Your comment that their lives are  filled with free time couldn't be further from the truth. I am a SAHM and guess what? I traveled internationally six times over the past five years, to Prague and the United Kingdom. Its so funny that you think SAHMs don't travel. I got a real kick of that one. Sweetie, I don't "do less" than other people. I don't have any more free time on my hands than you people who work at 8 to 5 jobs.  You really should apologize, your comment is the most disgusting thing I've read on here.

I know 20+ SAHP, and there's 2 types. The ones that are busy with stuff, like you. And the ones that aren't.

The ones that aren't busy for whatever reason have strong tendencies to be judgey and poke their nose into places they shouldn't. Doesn't mean they DO, but the push is there. It can be very unpleasant to be around them for long. You're likely not seeing the non-busy types because you are busy. Thank you. Please stay busy, because it's very annoying for me to have to keep track of which acquaintances I need to keep on a low-information diet, just so they leave me alone. And also track the changes in those different groups - because people's lives can get more or less busy and change their behavior accordingly.

This doesn't just apply to SAHP of course, it can apply to any person. I might also add that it's possible to be busy and still be a nosey, judgey, annoying human.

[ms]

Lots of stay at home moms have been in the workforce, often for many years, so they do understand the level of effort required to produce money. The may even be the money manager for the entire household. So that could be where their advice is coming from.

This is true, but regardless of past industriousness, people who have more time on their hands have more time to care about things that are absolutely not their business.

Do I get judgment from my friends and family with very full lives of work, family, volunteering, hobbies, travel, whatever? Not nearly as much as I get from people who do less of all of those things.

Oh God. You are so wrong about that. Many SAHMs have full lives too, filled with family, volunteering, travel and hobbies. They do TONS of volunteer work in the community and especially for schools, which saves the taxpayers money (let's give them a shout out and a thanks!). They also are the busiest people I know especially if they take care of young children during the day. Your comment that their lives are  filled with free time couldn't be further from the truth. I am a SAHM and guess what? I traveled internationally six times over the past five years, to Prague and the United Kingdom. Its so funny that you think SAHMs don't travel. I got a real kick of that one. Sweetie, I don't "do less" than other people. I don't have any more free time on my hands than you people who work at 8 to 5 jobs.  You really should apologize, your comment is the most disgusting thing I've read on here.

I did not read merula's comment as a judgement on SAHMs. I read it as a judgement on people with too much time on their hands. The poster clearly stated that people who live full lives (which there's no question that SAHMs live full lives) understand that they need not to judge as harshly as someone who has nothing to do.

That's what I read.

[Chesleygirl]

I did not read merula's comment as a judgement on SAHMs. I read it as a judgement on people with too much time on their hands. The poster clearly stated that people who live full lives (which there's no question that SAHMs live full lives) understand that they need not to judge as harshly as someone who has nothing to do.

That's what I read.

No, she was responding to a post about SAHMs. Clearly believing these people don't have active, full lives.

[merula]

Oh God. You are so wrong about that. Many SAHMs have full lives too, filled with family, volunteering, travel and hobbies. They do TONS of volunteer work in the community and especially for schools, which saves the taxpayers money (let's give them a shout out and a thanks!). They also are the busiest people I know especially if they take care of young children during the day. Your comment that their lives are  filled with free time couldn't be further from the truth. I am a SAHM and guess what? I traveled internationally six times over the past five years, to Prague and the United Kingdom. Its so funny that you think SAHMs don't travel. I got a real kick of that one. Sweetie, I don't "do less" than other people. I don't have any more free time on my hands than you people who work at 8 to 5 jobs.  You really should apologize, your comment is the most disgusting thing I've read on here.

Back the truck up. I never said SAHMs did less than others, much the opposite. ms understood me, so I'm baffled by your response.

I did not read merula's comment as a judgement on SAHMs. I read it as a judgement on people with too much time on their hands. The poster clearly stated that people who live full lives (which there's no question that SAHMs live full lives) understand that they need not to judge as harshly as someone who has nothing to do.

You have things that fill your time. Great. Good for you. I'm married to a SAH parent who also fills his time. Not every busy parent is a SAH one NOR is every busy SAH parent a mother.

[Chesleygirl]

This doesn't just apply to SAHP of course, it can apply to any person. I might also add that it's possible to be busy and still be a nosey, judgey, annoying human.

You mean, like people who notice how much money others spend, what they spend it on, and talk about it online....oh, like most of the posts here? Constantly noticing what people spend and what they spend it on is, well...being a busybody. And I'd say most or at least half of the posters here have full time jobs. Where do they find time to notice and comment on all these things? Perhaps their lives aren't as full or busy as they claim? It's very nosy and judgey to comment on co-workers buying Starbuck's coffee or what they spend on a new house. That is like oh...about 100% of the posts on this particular board.

[shelivesthedream]

I did not read merula's comment as a judgement on SAHMs. I read it as a judgement on people with too much time on their hands. The poster clearly stated that people who live full lives (which there's no question that SAHMs live full lives) understand that they need not to judge as harshly as someone who has nothing to do.

That's what I read.

No, she was responding to a post about SAHMs. Clearly believing these people don't have active, full lives.

I have read a few posts by you lately that are very, very defensive. Yes, some people in life and on this forum can be judgemental jerks. But saying "people who have too much time on their hands" in the same post as mentioning a SAHP is really really not the same as saying "all SAHP have too much time on their hands". I often click "reply" and only mean to reply to one bit of a post but don't edit out the extraneous stuff because I'm lazy or it's a long post and I can't do it consistently on my phone.

Most people on this forum are not horrible, judgemental people. Most people on this forum are full of praise and admiration for people who do unpaid work! (Be it parenting or volunteering or whatever) - and are trying to get there themselves! FIRE for many, if not most, people here means a life exactly as you describe, of unpaid work for themselves, their family and their wider community. Few people here would assume that no paid work means no life or no contribution to society. That's half the point of MMM!

I would counsel you to consider re-reading posts before replying and responding to the kindest, best-case scenario of what someone has actually said rather than jumping immediately to the conclusion that they are out to criticise you and everything you stand for. Sometimes individuals are judgemental jerks, but that's what the "Report to moderator" button is for. I have also taken a break from the forum in the past myself when I was getting way too angry at perceived slights by Internet strangers. It helped me regain some perspective.

[ms]

..

Most people on this forum are not horrible, judgemental people. Most people on this forum are full of praise and admiration for people who do unpaid work! (Be it parenting or volunteering or whatever) - and are trying to get there themselves! FIRE for many, if not most, people here means a life exactly as you describe, of unpaid work for themselves, their family and their wider community. Few people here would assume that no paid work means no life or no contribution to society. That's half the point of MMM!

..

Fully in agreement here. Thanks for posting this!

[kaypinkHH]

+1 to @shelivesthedream

Responding to Chesleygirl's last post:
It seems ironic that you seem to be judging us for judging/complaining about other people, on a forum thread designed to be a place to share judgment.

The literal description of the Anti-Mustachian wall of shame:
"Sometimes the world just needs to be mocked. What have you seen in real life, in the mainstream media, or on other blogs, that is just so Antimustachian that you need to share it with us, your friends on the Inside?"

Most of us are fully aware we are judging others when we post here!

However, If we look back to the original post that brought this all on, @TheGrimSqueaker was saying he has a nasty relative who judges his lifestyle, where due to her own personal circumstance cannot appreciate why TGS and fam choose to live that way. (TGS I think I summarized this sufficiently, but I don't want to put words in your mouth).

Going into someone's home as a guest and then complaining that they "need to renovate" or critique their life style is a significantly different level of judgement than posting fairly anonymously on a internet forum about silly coworkers who buy starbucks, or what people spend on a new house.

And no one was attacking SAHMs... they were criticizing men and women of leisure, who also happen to be jerkfaces.

@Chesleygirl, are you dealing with people IRL who are really rude to you about being a SAHM?  I feel like you are taking something out on internet forum peeps, that is rooted from somewhere else. I could be way wrong but that is what I am wondering is happening.

...if I'm correct though I can recommend a great place to rant about it for support...antimustachian wall of shame. :D.
 Those real life jerks don't get that you are financially responsible enough to be able to have a lifestyle that works for your family...there is a whole internet forum full of people who can related to dealing with relatives/friends who just "don't get it"!

Seriously, use this forum to rant about those real life jerks, not to think that every post is a direct attack against you/your life/your choices!

[Chesleygirl]

It's interesting how SAHMs are called "busybodies". but most of the working people here seem to know very detailed information about their friend's and relative's financial affairs. That's the true definition of a busybody. When you know how much debt someone has, what's in their bank account, and even how many times they buy coffee every week. Perhaps some people here just need to get a life? Mind your own financial affairs and don't worry so much about how someone else manages theirs. Unless they ask you for money, it really doesn't affect you at all.

[jinga nation]

It's interesting how SAHMs are called "busybodies". but most of the working people here seem to know very detailed information about their friend's and relative's financial affairs. That's the true definition of a busybody. When you know how much debt someone has, what's in their bank account, and even how many times they buy coffee every week. Perhaps some people here just need to get a life? Mind your own financial affairs and don't worry so much about how someone else manages theirs. Unless they ask you for money, it really doesn't affect you at all.

That's the purpose of this thread, to mock those who "don't get it". Do you?

There's a big difference between those who post here and busybodies.

The reason that Mustachians post in the "Overheard at Work/Gym/Etc" threads is that people say stuff in public, there's no prying involved. I'm doing my work and my co-workers are discussing the merits of renovating a kitchen while they're $50k in debt. That's not prying. This is all overheard and observations. If I spend 250 days a year with the same 25 people in my team, for 5 years, I know a damn good load of info on them. I didn't have to pry. Humans talk... sometimes your co-workers are your second "family".

A busybody has a lot of time and nothing constructive to do, so likes to go around or make phone calls and dig up snippets of information.

No one's saying you, a SAHM, is a busybody. If I did generalize in my last comment, I apologize. We all speak here from life experiences. I grew up in a 3rd world country with tons of busybodies who were all SAHMs. That's my experience, my view. But I've noticed the phenomenon right here in America. In all the places I've lived, from Florida, to New England, to California.

Don't take it personally if I generalized. It's not the end of the world. Breathe. And have a very merry jolly happy holiday season.

(Why are you so defensive lately? Perhaps you need to take a break from this forum. Our willingness to facepunch won't help you.)

[mm1970]

Lots of stay at home moms have been in the workforce, often for many years, so they do understand the level of effort required to produce money. The may even be the money manager for the entire household. So that could be where their advice is coming from.

This is true, but regardless of past industriousness, people who have more time on their hands have more time to care about things that are absolutely not their business.

Do I get judgment from my friends and family with very full lives of work, family, volunteering, hobbies, travel, whatever? Not nearly as much as I get from people who do less of all of those things.

It's not just how much time you have on your hands, either. It's also how intertwined you are.  Time and proximity help/hurt that.

We live on the opposite coast from the families.  Often when we go visit, sibling complains about parent, parent complains about sibling. Sib A complains about Sib B, and vice versa.  We get to be Switzerland because we aren't intertwined in peoples' daily lives. 

I'm sure my stepdad likes me better than my brother.  We talk weekly.  I changed a trip to stop in and care for him when he had surgery.  My brother almost never visits, despite living a few miles away.  Even then, only when he needs something (like free babysitting).

As far as time goes - my mother quit her job at some point because she wanted to be "at home" like she was when we were kids. Except she was miserable.  She had too much time on her hands to dwell about what was wrong with her and her life.  She started into depression, started drinking, and eventually it killed her.  When she worked, she was too fucking busy and tired to DWELL on anything really.

[Sibley]

This doesn't just apply to SAHP of course, it can apply to any person. I might also add that it's possible to be busy and still be a nosey, judgey, annoying human.

You mean, like people who notice how much money others spend, what they spend it on, and talk about it online....oh, like most of the posts here? Constantly noticing what people spend and what they spend it on is, well...being a busybody. And I'd say most or at least half of the posters here have full time jobs. Where do they find time to notice and comment on all these things? Perhaps their lives aren't as full or busy as they claim? It's very nosy and judgey to comment on co-workers buying Starbuck's coffee or what they spend on a new house. That is like oh...about 100% of the posts on this particular board.

Chesleygirl, I'm going to have to echo other's comments here. Are you ok? Because you don't seem ok. Take care of yourself.

[crispy]

Former SAHM who also didn't read these posts as being negative to SAHPs.  I will also say that maybe I was weird, but I had plenty of free time when I stayed home and have never understood the busy-ness that so many people describe even though I did chase around two children and did volunteer work. I went back to work because I was bored...maybe I was doing it wrong.

[Gronnie]

Just going to leave this here to remind those that get all up in arms about things that "offend" them what happens to them due to the offense.... nothing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo

I take offense at people that get offended by every little thing, yet I just go on with my life.

[Chesleygirl]

Former SAHM who also didn't read these posts as being negative to SAHPs.  I will also say that maybe I was weird, but I had plenty of free time when I stayed home and have never understood the busy-ness that so many people describe even though I did chase around two children and did volunteer work. I went back to work because I was bored...maybe I was doing it wrong.

Whatever. (Yawn). Hope you get all the thumbs up that you're looking for from the other posters.

[Paul der Krake]

You don’t get to say “yawn” when you’re clearly the one carrying a chip on your shoulder.

[crispy]

Former SAHM who also didn't read these posts as being negative to SAHPs.  I will also say that maybe I was weird, but I had plenty of free time when I stayed home and have never understood the busy-ness that so many people describe even though I did chase around two children and did volunteer work. I went back to work because I was bored...maybe I was doing it wrong.

Whatever. (Yawn). Hope you get all the thumbs up that you're looking for from the other posters.

Yes, anyone reading this thread can definitely see that I am the one seeking validation for my life choices in this threads. Oh, wait...

Seriously, between this thread and the one about the inheritance, your posts are very concerning. Since there is an inheritance thread, it may mean you recently lost a loved one. Please consider stepping back to deal with whatever is going on in your personal life. When I lost my dad 10 years ago, I honestly didn't realize how strongly I was affected and was surprised at how my grief played out. I hope whatever is bothering you gets better.

[Goldielocks]

Interesting to see everyone's differing definitions of "busybody".

My definition of "busybody" is to compare the action / peron up against an example from my childhood.    She was the neighbor on the corner, that knew immediately when you received a home delivery (furniture, appliance box), or a visitor just left, because she watched out the window, and came over within 1 hour with a pretense ("I have an extra zucchini for you", "Do you have any coffee? I'm out..."), simply to scope out what you just bought, who that person was, and why.

You know, that lady that my mom obviously did not consider a "friend" and politely addressed solely on the front porch.

Simply knowing a lot about someone else is not being a busybody to me, it is what you do with the information.  I am curious and I love puzzles. I keep chewing at a puzzle (quietly) until I figure it out.  It took me a while to solve out how my neighbors / SIL could buy so much fundraising crap ("Luxury Wrapping paper!") from the kids at our school.   I was genuinely puzzled because my income was close to 2x theirs at the time.

[faithless]

It took me a while to solve out how my neighbors / SIL could buy so much fundraising crap ("Luxury Wrapping paper!") from the kids at our school.   I was genuinely puzzled because my income was close to 2x theirs at the time.

How? Credit cards/they can't?

[MgoSam]

It took me a while to solve out how my neighbors / SIL could buy so much fundraising crap ("Luxury Wrapping paper!") from the kids at our school.   I was genuinely puzzled because my income was close to 2x theirs at the time.

How? Credit cards/they can't?

Grr, now you've got me wondering the same. Have you thought about asking them?

[Goldielocks]

It took me a while to solve out how my neighbors / SIL could buy so much fundraising crap ("Luxury Wrapping paper!") from the kids at our school.   I was genuinely puzzled because my income was close to 2x theirs at the time.

How? Credit cards/they can't?

Grr, now you've got me wondering the same. Have you thought about asking them?

Reference definition of "Busybody"....!  LOL   

So, no, I haven't asked directly.   

I discovered three things at play here:
1)  Families who are not saving for future education or retirement -- instead spending all in the here and now.  Defer planning to spend for education when it happens, out of available income, and to save for retirement after the kids have left the house.
2) HELOCs and credit cards supporting the lifestyle.
3) Grandparents who pay for all the kids' after school activities / gifts /  private school, maybe pay for a second car for the family, etc.   Or, just having grandparents do all the fundraiser purchasing of luxury wrapping paper.   

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Relative: Well, I was up all night debating whether or not I should buy a Dyson Stick Vac, really worrying me what to do etc etc
Me: Has your old vacuum cleaner died?
Relative: No, but the Dyson is on special. $300 off!

End of conversation. I've learned that further input on my part is not appreciated.

[boyerbt]

My Brother's co-worker announced his two week notice for early retirement because he sold his bitcoin a few weeks ago and is walking away with roughly $850k. Both my brother and Dad were saying that his windfall wouldn't be enough for retirement...give me that money and I can call it a day.

[Imma]

My Brother's co-worker announced his two week notice for early retirement because he sold his bitcoin a few weeks ago and is walking away with roughly $850k. Both my brother and Dad were saying that his windfall wouldn't be enough for retirement...give me that money and I can call it a day.

I would definitely be able to retire with that kind of money. Actually that means I'd have more money to live off than I do right now.

Over Christmas dinner, a relative told me he had 200 bitcoins some years back and spent most of it. He knows he used to have 20 or 30 left over, but it's been so long ago he doesn't know where they're stored. He has done everything in their power to track them but it seems they're lost for good. :(

[boyerbt]

My Brother's co-worker announced his two week notice for early retirement because he sold his bitcoin a few weeks ago and is walking away with roughly $850k. Both my brother and Dad were saying that his windfall wouldn't be enough for retirement...give me that money and I can call it a day.

I would definitely be able to retire with that kind of money. Actually that means I'd have more money to live off than I do right now.

Over Christmas dinner, a relative told me he had 200 bitcoins some years back and spent most of it. He knows he used to have 20 or 30 left over, but it's been so long ago he doesn't know where they're stored. He has done everything in their power to track them but it seems they're lost for good. :(

Did your relative say what he purchased with the bitcoins? Does he seem to have any regret on spending them early now that the value has jumped so much?

[Imma]

My Brother's co-worker announced his two week notice for early retirement because he sold his bitcoin a few weeks ago and is walking away with roughly $850k. Both my brother and Dad were saying that his windfall wouldn't be enough for retirement...give me that money and I can call it a day.

I would definitely be able to retire with that kind of money. Actually that means I'd have more money to live off than I do right now.

Over Christmas dinner, a relative told me he had 200 bitcoins some years back and spent most of it. He knows he used to have 20 or 30 left over, but it's been so long ago he doesn't know where they're stored. He has done everything in their power to track them but it seems they're lost for good. :(

Did your relative say what he purchased with the bitcoins? Does he seem to have any regret on spending them early now that the value has jumped so much?

He isn't too happy about it, although he's realistic enough to recognize that if he hadn't spent the bitcoins on something (he doesn't even remember what he bought with it ... it's 5+ years ago, it was something small and cheap)  he'd probably already sold them once they hit $25 or something.

But of course, there's always the 'what if'. He's building his own business while working fulltime for somewhere else and even the money from the 20 or 30 bitcoins would have allowed him to quit the day job. If he still had all 200, he wouldn't even have to think about his business, he could have retired straight away.

[charis]

You don’t get to say “yawn” when you’re clearly the one carrying a chip on your shoulder.

Former SAHM who also didn't read these posts as being negative to SAHPs.  I will also say that maybe I was weird, but I had plenty of free time when I stayed home and have never understood the busy-ness that so many people describe even though I did chase around two children and did volunteer work. I went back to work because I was bored...maybe I was doing it wrong.

Whatever. (Yawn). Hope you get all the thumbs up that you're looking for from the other posters.

Yeah, no.  Get yourself together and stop taking it out on everyone else.

[Fiscal_Hawk]

Had a relative remark over Christmas that it would probably take longer to pay off the CC after this year's Christmas than last years. She then said that last year the CC wasn't paid off until October!

My first thought was how much did you spend on presents?

[MgoSam]

Had a relative remark over Christmas that it would probably take longer to pay off the CC after this year's Christmas than last years. She then said that last year the CC wasn't paid off until October!

My first thought was how much did you spend on presents?

A second thought could be, how much of a balance do you normally keep? I highly doubt someone would carry a large balance for several months solely on account for Christmas. There's a good chance they've been stringing things along.

[Dave1442397]

Interesting to see everyone's differing definitions of "busybody".

My definition of "busybody" is to compare the action / peron up against an example from my childhood.    She was the neighbor on the corner, that knew immediately when you received a home delivery (furniture, appliance box), or a visitor just left, because she watched out the window, and came over within 1 hour with a pretense ("I have an extra zucchini for you", "Do you have any coffee? I'm out..."), simply to scope out what you just bought, who that person was, and why.

We had a neighbor like that right across the street from us. Back in those days, people rarely bought TVs or VCRs, and would just rent them month-to-month. My friend's family owned an appliance store, so as a lark I grabbed empty Sony TV and VCR boxes and propped them up against the garbage cans on garbage day. Then, we
 purposely never mentioned it and waited for the neighbor to crack. He lasted around six weeks, at which point he just had to ask us how we liked our new TV. Us: "What TV?". And then he didn't know what to say, so changed the subject.

[Imma]

I help my sister out with her taxes. She asked me if I earned more or less than her, and I answered in all honesty I earned a bit more (but not a lot).

My sister has the kind of job that sounds really fancy (she deals with famous people and visits nice places and is travelling a lot). I work in finance in IT and live a pretty frugal life - no car, non-fancy house, boring clothes, I go home at 5. Over Christmas dinner my mum found it necessary to tell the whole family that my sister worked so hard and was paid so badly "even Imma gets paid more!"

I did tell her I only earned a bit more, not much, and she explicitly asked for it, but I guess she feels very sorry for herself that even a pauper like me earns more than her.

[Playing with Fire UK]

Over Christmas dinner my mum found it necessary to tell the whole family that my sister worked so hard and was paid so badly "even Imma gets paid more!"

How wildly and incredibly rude.

[Maenad]

DH had a family funeral this week and it reminded me of how brilliant he is to have learned from his parents' mistakes.

FIL decided a couple of years ago that he wanted to retire to Colorado. The right way to do this would be:
1. Research properties/rentals in the areas he wants to live in. Keep an ear to the ground as to how prices are moving.
2. Look over savings, determine how much he can get for his current house here.
3. Make sure all the numbers work out, put in some kind of earnest money on a place in CO.
4. Put house here up for sale, quit job, move to CO.

What does FIL do?
1. Decides he wants to live in CO (before pot was legalized there). Ignore impact of legalization on housing market, stick head in sand.
2. Quit job.
3. Sell home here.
4. Move out to CO and realize he can no longer afford anything other than a place a mile away from the Federal Supermax prison.
5. A couple of years later, remodel part of his house into a rental so that he has enough money to live off of.

Just a little more forethought and he would have been OK, but he tends to leap before he looks and he makes things harder on himself as a result.

BIL is a whole other story. His life of bad choices has resulted in him spending this past summer sleeping in his truck, homeless. He has his own small eBay business, since he "really likes working for himself", but it obviously isn't enough to actually support him. Since he's spent most of his adulthood mooching off of FIL I'm guessing he'll end up in CO as well. At least no one expects us to help him out.

[mustachepungoeshere]

Over Christmas dinner my mum found it necessary to tell the whole family that my sister worked so hard and was paid so badly "even Imma gets paid more!"

How wildly and incredibly rude.

Beat me to it, PFUK.

@Imma, it sounds like your sister would lord it over you however that conversation went. If she made more than you, you'd never hear the end of that either. I just can't believe your mother weighed in on this.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[Just Joe]

Just another reason to keep your financial info all to yourself. ;)