Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3750004 times)

kayvent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3650 on: September 28, 2017, 03:52:05 PM »
So this is actually the opposite of this thread but my excitement has been too much. My mother, who has always been poor with money, recently asked me to teach her some things about budgeting. She's agreed to help me set-up YNAB with her. It won't be mustachian but I believe I can save her lots of money by getting her to track and notice her expenses. (I recently found out that she spends more per week on food than my household.)

My problem/experience with food stamps was working at a grocery and seeing tons of crap being bought. I would never buy the soda and chips myself 1. I couldn't afford it 2. It's so bad for you. I just wish government money only went to healthy foods. Too many people are malnourished in this country to be wasting money on coke and Doritos.

I will beg to differ. People on foodstamps have a miserable life. For a single person to be on foodstamps, they'd be making sub-14500 gross or under 12000 net. We're on the MMM forum; even us super-frugal, do-it-yourselfers don't can't live that cheaply. I've seen threads on this forum. We think it is incredibly frugal to only spend 22K. To many of us, living on 12K is unimaginable.

I am going to confer to Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier (1937) argument on this subject of poor people buying unhealthy food while on the dole. If you're living that type of subsistence living, it is only natural to want to escape that misery. Even if it is just for a moment while drinking pop or having a bag of crisps. I don't begrudge suffering people taking a pain killer.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 03:54:43 PM by kayvent »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3651 on: September 28, 2017, 03:57:20 PM »
Freakonomics did an episode about this in regards to football helmets.  As helmets have gotten safer (in the sense of preventing skull fractures) the players have gotten more violent, thus leading more concussions (which aren't prevented by current helmet designs).  http://freakonomics.com/2015/08/13/the-dangers-of-safety-full-transcript-2/

Edit: After looking back through the transcript, they talk about seatbelts and safety standards in cars too :)
I wonder how much research has been done with regards to head injuries in rugby vs American football.

Gronnie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3652 on: September 28, 2017, 05:02:29 PM »
My problem/experience with food stamps was working at a grocery and seeing tons of crap being bought. I would never buy the soda and chips myself 1. I couldn't afford it 2. It's so bad for you. I just wish government money only went to healthy foods. Too many people are malnourished in this country to be wasting money on coke and Doritos.

I will beg to differ. People on foodstamps have a miserable life. For a single person to be on foodstamps, they'd be making sub-14500 gross or under 12000 net. We're on the MMM forum; even us super-frugal, do-it-yourselfers don't can't live that cheaply. I've seen threads on this forum. We think it is incredibly frugal to only spend 22K. To many of us, living on 12K is unimaginable.

I am going to confer to Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier (1937) argument on this subject of poor people buying unhealthy food while on the dole. If you're living that type of subsistence living, it is only natural to want to escape that misery. Even if it is just for a moment while drinking pop or having a bag of crisps. I don't begrudge suffering people taking a pain killer.

Or a "single" mother has a couple of kids and gets housing, food stamps, Medicaid, etc. Father lives with the family and has a FT job, but father and mother aren't married and father claims his address is elsewhere (parent's or friend's house, etc). This is an extremely common scenario, and if they weren't gaming the system they wouldn't be eligible for all these handouts.

Gin1984

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3653 on: September 28, 2017, 09:24:37 PM »
My problem/experience with food stamps was working at a grocery and seeing tons of crap being bought. I would never buy the soda and chips myself 1. I couldn't afford it 2. It's so bad for you. I just wish government money only went to healthy foods. Too many people are malnourished in this country to be wasting money on coke and Doritos.

I will beg to differ. People on foodstamps have a miserable life. For a single person to be on foodstamps, they'd be making sub-14500 gross or under 12000 net. We're on the MMM forum; even us super-frugal, do-it-yourselfers don't can't live that cheaply. I've seen threads on this forum. We think it is incredibly frugal to only spend 22K. To many of us, living on 12K is unimaginable.

I am going to confer to Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier (1937) argument on this subject of poor people buying unhealthy food while on the dole. If you're living that type of subsistence living, it is only natural to want to escape that misery. Even if it is just for a moment while drinking pop or having a bag of crisps. I don't begrudge suffering people taking a pain killer.

Or a "single" mother has a couple of kids and gets housing, food stamps, Medicaid, etc. Father lives with the family and has a FT job, but father and mother aren't married and father claims his address is elsewhere (parent's or friend's house, etc). This is an extremely common scenario, and if they weren't gaming the system they wouldn't be eligible for all these handouts.
I love for you to show any evidence of this being common.  It is a common myth, started by Reagan, but there is no actual basis.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3654 on: September 29, 2017, 12:53:14 AM »
My problem/experience with food stamps was working at a grocery and seeing tons of crap being bought. I would never buy the soda and chips myself 1. I couldn't afford it 2. It's so bad for you. I just wish government money only went to healthy foods. Too many people are malnourished in this country to be wasting money on coke and Doritos.

I will beg to differ. People on foodstamps have a miserable life. For a single person to be on foodstamps, they'd be making sub-14500 gross or under 12000 net. We're on the MMM forum; even us super-frugal, do-it-yourselfers don't can't live that cheaply. I've seen threads on this forum. We think it is incredibly frugal to only spend 22K. To many of us, living on 12K is unimaginable.

I am going to confer to Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier (1937) argument on this subject of poor people buying unhealthy food while on the dole. If you're living that type of subsistence living, it is only natural to want to escape that misery. Even if it is just for a moment while drinking pop or having a bag of crisps. I don't begrudge suffering people taking a pain killer.

Or a "single" mother has a couple of kids and gets housing, food stamps, Medicaid, etc. Father lives with the family and has a FT job, but father and mother aren't married and father claims his address is elsewhere (parent's or friend's house, etc). This is an extremely common scenario, and if they weren't gaming the system they wouldn't be eligible for all these handouts.
I love for you to show any evidence of this being common.  It is a common myth, started by Reagan, but there is no actual basis.

Some people are inexplicably desperate to think the worst of others.

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3655 on: September 29, 2017, 02:17:37 AM »
My problem/experience with food stamps was working at a grocery and seeing tons of crap being bought. I would never buy the soda and chips myself 1. I couldn't afford it 2. It's so bad for you. I just wish government money only went to healthy foods. Too many people are malnourished in this country to be wasting money on coke and Doritos.

I will beg to differ. People on foodstamps have a miserable life. For a single person to be on foodstamps, they'd be making sub-14500 gross or under 12000 net. We're on the MMM forum; even us super-frugal, do-it-yourselfers don't can't live that cheaply. I've seen threads on this forum. We think it is incredibly frugal to only spend 22K. To many of us, living on 12K is unimaginable.

I am going to confer to Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier (1937) argument on this subject of poor people buying unhealthy food while on the dole. If you're living that type of subsistence living, it is only natural to want to escape that misery. Even if it is just for a moment while drinking pop or having a bag of crisps. I don't begrudge suffering people taking a pain killer.

Or a "single" mother has a couple of kids and gets housing, food stamps, Medicaid, etc. Father lives with the family and has a FT job, but father and mother aren't married and father claims his address is elsewhere (parent's or friend's house, etc). This is an extremely common scenario, and if they weren't gaming the system they wouldn't be eligible for all these handouts.
I love for you to show any evidence of this being common.  It is a common myth, started by Reagan, but there is no actual basis.

Yeah,  when I read that I thought how fortunate the kids were to have a dad at home, and I would be happy to support that, for sure.

Raenia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3656 on: September 29, 2017, 05:56:50 AM »

I will beg to differ. People on foodstamps have a miserable life. For a single person to be on foodstamps, they'd be making sub-14500 gross or under 12000 net. We're on the MMM forum; even us super-frugal, do-it-yourselfers don't can't live that cheaply. I've seen threads on this forum. We think it is incredibly frugal to only spend 22K. To many of us, living on 12K is unimaginable.

Not to be contrary, but I have lived on ~12k net, and I currently live on a hair over ~15k.  I not only can and did, I still had a good life doing it.  It's not the low expenses that make it a miserable life, it's the constant worry due to lack of buffer space for emergencies.

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3657 on: September 29, 2017, 06:46:58 AM »

I will beg to differ. People on foodstamps have a miserable life. For a single person to be on foodstamps, they'd be making sub-14500 gross or under 12000 net. We're on the MMM forum; even us super-frugal, do-it-yourselfers don't can't live that cheaply. I've seen threads on this forum. We think it is incredibly frugal to only spend 22K. To many of us, living on 12K is unimaginable.

Not to be contrary, but I have lived on ~12k net, and I currently live on a hair over ~15k.  I not only can and did, I still had a good life doing it.  It's not the low expenses that make it a miserable life, it's the constant worry due to lack of buffer space for emergencies.

I just re-read the original post. That's $12k per person, right? And that means something like $50/week in SNAP benefits, plus housing assistance, health insurance, etc?

Whoops. I just checked the Texas SNAP rules. It's actually $19.9k for a single, $33.7k for a family of 3.

The $33.7k is gross income (before taxes) - but I don't think EITC is "income"

That doesn't sound miserable.

merula

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3658 on: September 29, 2017, 07:25:49 AM »
There is nothing subtle about the way black people are treated by police.

There is nothing subtle about Confederate flags and tiki torches.

There is nothing subtle about white people with safety nets who resent black people on exactly the same programs.

There is nothing subtle about people losing their jobs because their hair isn't right.

Shall I continue?

Just because a large segment of our society refuses to acknowledge a gaping hole does not make it a small hole.
You're talking about the 0.001% of the population that does that overt stuff, and yes I denounce it, and so do most conservatives.

Once you get to an equivalent of a "black section" at a café or a "white's only" drinking fountain that every single American walks by and ignores, then yes, I believe it is subtle. 

The fact that I work with black people and value their work indicates that my problems are subtle.  And yes, I admit I have problems.
Trump did not make it through the primaries because .0001% of the population holds ones or more of those beliefs.

And African Americans should not fvcking be grateful that they aren't being lynched or forced to use separate water fountains . Especially since they ARE being lynched by men and women in blue.

I think you may have misunderstood what MrMoogle was saying. I agree with you that the current executive branch situation shows that there is a lot of racism in the US even without separate water fountains or lunch counters, and the actions of police against POC is horrific.

I think MrMoogle agrees with you too.

The overt stuff gets routinely denounced, by conservatives as well as liberals. (See: Republican leaders who denounced both the Charlottesville marches and Trump's reaction). Five years ago I would have said we were past the point of even needing to talk about the overt stuff, because it was so marginalized. Now, I would say we need to continue to address it so that it doesn't keep rearing its ugly head, but our focus should be on the more pervasive and subtle kinds of racism.

When MrMoogle says "The fact that I work with black people and value their work indicates that my problems are subtle.  And yes, I admit I have problems.", I hear him saying that he values black people, and presumably other minorities, but recognizes that ingrained racism can still affect his actions in ways that negatively impact those people. That's a hard thing to say, but it's true of all white people. Despite our best intentions, we don't fully understand what it's like to be on the other side, and that gap causes problems.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3659 on: September 29, 2017, 11:24:04 AM »
My problem/experience with food stamps was working at a grocery and seeing tons of crap being bought. I would never buy the soda and chips myself 1. I couldn't afford it 2. It's so bad for you. I just wish government money only went to healthy foods. Too many people are malnourished in this country to be wasting money on coke and Doritos.

I will beg to differ. People on foodstamps have a miserable life. For a single person to be on foodstamps, they'd be making sub-14500 gross or under 12000 net. We're on the MMM forum; even us super-frugal, do-it-yourselfers don't can't live that cheaply. I've seen threads on this forum. We think it is incredibly frugal to only spend 22K. To many of us, living on 12K is unimaginable.

I am going to confer to Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier (1937) argument on this subject of poor people buying unhealthy food while on the dole. If you're living that type of subsistence living, it is only natural to want to escape that misery. Even if it is just for a moment while drinking pop or having a bag of crisps. I don't begrudge suffering people taking a pain killer.

Or a "single" mother has a couple of kids and gets housing, food stamps, Medicaid, etc. Father lives with the family and has a FT job, but father and mother aren't married and father claims his address is elsewhere (parent's or friend's house, etc). This is an extremely common scenario, and if they weren't gaming the system they wouldn't be eligible for all these handouts.
The thing is "everyone knows someone who knows someone" who is cheating the system.  But few people know anyone who is cheating the system.

I will say this:
- my sister's SIL has 2-3 kids, is on welfare, doesn't work, lives with her mom.  I know someone who knows someone.
- I used to work with a woman who had Section 8 housing.  She was a hard worker.  Had 2 jobs.  The second job meant that her rent went up/ voucher went down.  However, she *did* live with her boyfriend (illegally) who worked under the table.  Eventually she traded her 2 jobs for one higher paying job and bought a condo.  Last I checked her adult daughter was in school and was able to get a Section 8 voucher.  That was years ago.  So at least she got off welfare.
- I have, at times, worked with men who lived with their girlfriends and kids, but didn't marry.  In some cases, it's because the kids could get medicaid or food stamps.  (Sometimes both parents worked.) One of my coworkers asked out loud if he should put his kids on his insurance instead of medicaid?  But it would cost him money.  (Not a lot.)

However, studies have shown these cases to be few and far between.

I'll say something else.  Welfare does suck.  We were poor growing up but never eligible, to my knowledge, for welfare and food stamps.  It sucked and we had weeks with a bare cupboard and 16 cents till pay day.  I just finished reading a book This House Protected by Poverty by Frances Ransley.  Basically her life as a single parent with 4 kids, on welfare, unable to work for much of it because of a disability, but ineligible for disability pay.  A very eye opening look into Poverty and welfare, at least what it was like back in the 1980s.

It sucked.  It was hard to pay the bills. It was inordinately hard to get off of, when you consider the need for childcare, and the numerous hoops that you have to jump through to keep your paperwork up to date, to get school paid for, childcare paid for so that you can go to school, etc.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3660 on: September 29, 2017, 12:50:10 PM »
I'm not saying that it would be better overall if there weren't such safety nets, but I hate how passive it has made people.

I think this is putting the cart before the horse. I think the short-term thinking (which looks like passivity) is endemic to our species and has little to do with what safety nets are present. I know people who have literally said that they'll just live off of Social Security and the gov't will take care of them. I know far more who are just so focused on "today" that "tomorrow" doesn't get a moment of their time. And we all fall victim to that - how many of us are taking perfect physical care of ourselves, in preparation for old age? I have a list as long as my arm of things I "should" be doing to plan and prepare for the future, and it's barely getting shorter each year.

I don't really think that before safety nets people made better, long-term focused decisions. More people just starved to death.

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Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3662 on: September 29, 2017, 03:42:04 PM »
I was a social worker for awhile and M1970 is so right. Lots of reason for poverty and very difficult to escape. It takes a lot of support, money and time.  I had a friend on welfare that had 2 kids and wanted to go back to school. Her Mom died and she lost her free babysitter.  My husband & I babysat for free for 3 years, I enlisted her Dad and my Mom as backups since both were retired.  Then her last year they cut her food stamps because of her financial aid. She had to pay for books & tuition with that $.  She thought she was going to have to quit so she could feed her kids. We were far from rich but helped her with food as did her Dad.  We did not buy each other gifts so her kids had some gifts under the tree.  She graduated and got a job. It was awesome. However, look at the long term commitment and the number of people and money it took to make this happen.

kayvent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3663 on: September 29, 2017, 03:56:10 PM »
I was a social worker for awhile and M1970 is so right. Lots of reason for poverty and very difficult to escape. It takes a lot of support, money and time.  I had a friend on welfare that had 2 kids and wanted to go back to school. Her Mom died and she lost her free babysitter.  My husband & I babysat for free for 3 years, I enlisted her Dad and my Mom as backups since both were retired.  Then her last year they cut her food stamps because of her financial aid. She had to pay for books & tuition with that $.  She thought she was going to have to quit so she could feed her kids. We were far from rich but helped her with food as did her Dad.  We did not buy each other gifts so her kids had some gifts under the tree.  She graduated and got a job. It was awesome. However, look at the long term commitment and the number of people and money it took to make this happen.

What happened to the father of the two children?

Dave1442397

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3664 on: September 30, 2017, 11:27:58 AM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

iris lily

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3665 on: September 30, 2017, 06:39:58 PM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

Agreed, parental guidance and family culture is a very strong indicator of success. All of the yammering  about more money for poor urban schools (mine already has one of the highest per capita spending in the state) ignores that fact.

infogoon

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3666 on: September 30, 2017, 06:51:48 PM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Those of us who grew up in middle class homes take it as a given that working hard in school to get a good education is the key to success, but it's got to be tough to believe that when you've grown up in poverty and literally never seen it happen.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3667 on: September 30, 2017, 09:22:03 PM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Those of us who grew up in middle class homes take it as a given that working hard in school to get a good education is the key to success, but it's got to be tough to believe that when you've grown up in poverty and literally never seen it happen.

I went to a junior high and high school that was chock full of middle and upper middle class kids.   The overwhelming bulk of them had zero interest in getting good grades, or doing their homework, etc.   Many of those going to college picked their college because it was a party school or located in a part of the country they felt was "cool".

Based on many comments over many years by many teachers I have known, that problem has only gotten worse.

Americans are, by and large, the most expensively educated yet still ignorant people on the planet.   At least the poor have some excuse for that, the middle class do not.

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3668 on: September 30, 2017, 10:01:17 PM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

Agreed, parental guidance and family culture is a very strong indicator of success. All of the yammering  about more money for poor urban schools (mine already has one of the highest per capita spending in the state) ignores that fact.

It's unfortunate but for people that work in education, they can't fix parental involvement. I recall seeing a stat that success can pretty much be predicted by how many books a student's parents own. That sucks. I can speak from experience that my parents drove home the importance of education. If I had trouble in class they were always willing to help me with my homework or meetwo with my teachers or find someone willing to help me. I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have that.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3669 on: September 30, 2017, 10:50:16 PM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

Agreed, parental guidance and family culture is a very strong indicator of success. All of the yammering  about more money for poor urban schools (mine already has one of the highest per capita spending in the state) ignores that fact.

It's unfortunate but for people that work in education, they can't fix parental involvement. I recall seeing a stat that success can pretty much be predicted by how many books a student's parents own. That sucks. I can speak from experience that my parents drove home the importance of education. If I had trouble in class they were always willing to help me with my homework or meetwo with my teachers or find someone willing to help me. I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have that.

The notion that kids will absorb their parents' attitudes toward education is not completely accurate. My daughter had two years of my very best effort-- and if my book ownership was any predictor of her success she'd be Doogie Howser by now.  It didn't stick. I was able to get her through 10th grade and part of 11th, but ultimately the ready availability of a group of people who really, truly, honestly don't believe that education is important ended up being more of an influence.

I'm one of the best tutors in town, but ironically as an educator I've been an utter failure with my daughter. I did bring her reading level up from 2nd grade to 9th with some highly unorthodox methods, but I can't tutor someone who is not willing to look at the book, pick up a pencil, do an exercise, or do anything but pout or throw tantrums instead of completing an assignment or following the teacher's instructions or mine. My power is limited. I can only teach someone who wants to learn.

When a child who doesn't want to learn has access to a house where she or he can go instead of being in school, when there's someone willing to come pick the minor up from his or her home, take the minor out of that home, and drive the minor somewhere else without the parent's knowledge or consent, and when there are adults with vehicles ready and waiting to pick the minor up from school, the parent can't do a damn thing. School rules prohibit the parent from showing up to frog-march the high school student from one class to another, and because there are breaks between classes and students are entitled to bathroom breaks, a student who wants to escape from the school generally can. To keep a child in school therefore requires the united effort of an entire community, neighborhood, or extended family.

More than once, I've had one of my child's school friends ask if they could "hang out" at my place during school hours. I said no. My home is closed while my daughter is at school and I'm at work. Just because I occasionally work from home does not mean I'm available to babysit somebody who is playing truant. Unfortunately, nobody in my daughter's bio-family has that mentality. So she runs to the bio-family and to various lowlife friends (and in my opinion, anyone willing to sabotage a child's education is a lowlife) and POW! Not only does she get away with not being in school, but she sets off an enormous shitstorm.

The upshot of all of this is that my daughter, with a great deal of help from the lowlifes in her life, has chosen to be a pig-ignorant dropout. She's starting to figure out what she can actually afford with a dropout education and a dropout work ethic. It's not pretty and it's going to get uglier when she reaches her majority. She's chosen a life of extreme poverty because she refuses to do what it takes to get skills to exchange for an honest dollar.

Parental involvement means diddly-ding if there's a gigantic enabler network in place to reward dropout behavior or to at least delay its consequences. In the underclass, just such an enabler network exists. Plenty of people are thrilled to open their homes to a teen who ought to be in school, if it means that teen can babysit younger children while Mommy works, goes shopping, or naps. Lots of people are overjoyed to take a teen along to an ultrasound appointment, or the mall, or a hair or nail appointment during the day, just to have company. If the teen gets an allowance or has access to resources, clothing, or anything else that can be mooched away, so much the better! So the teen feels important and gets lots of what feels like love and respect, and gleefully deep-sixes his or her own education in order to gratify and enable various lowlifes. Result: eventually one more lowlife joins the herd.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3670 on: October 01, 2017, 04:21:12 AM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

Agreed, parental guidance and family culture is a very strong indicator of success. All of the yammering  about more money for poor urban schools (mine already has one of the highest per capita spending in the state) ignores that fact.

It's unfortunate but for people that work in education, they can't fix parental involvement. I recall seeing a stat that success can pretty much be predicted by how many books a student's parents own. That sucks. I can speak from experience that my parents drove home the importance of education. If I had trouble in class they were always willing to help me with my homework or meetwo with my teachers or find someone willing to help me. I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have that.

I had a lot of help through a project by the local Rotary Club in high school. I come from a working class background and a dysfunctional family and I was mostly left to my own devices all through my childhood. I was the smart kid of the family so no one paid attention to me, there was no need to in their mind. Through school, I got a mentor from the Rotary Club. My mentor was the retired local chief of police and we would sit down and talk about my ambitions, what I wanted to do after high school, what I needed to do to get there. He arranged short internships for me through people in his network so I could try some things out.

The most important one was an internship at a newspaper. I had considered training as a journalist, because that job appealed to me. They advised me that they didn't hire anyone with only a degree in journalism: you need a proper education, writing is something that you learn on the job. I went on to take a law degree with minors in political science, cultural history and economics. My circumstances changed and I never actually even tried to become a journalist, but that broad academic background has been very important in my career. A lot of my working class friends chose very practical degrees, only to find out that employers preferred candidates with a broad academic background. In my country, you pay a set amount of tuition and you can take an unlimited amount of classes, so I definitely took advantage of that. It would have been more difficult if I had to pay per class, because I didn't have that much money.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3671 on: October 01, 2017, 04:48:48 AM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

Agreed, parental guidance and family culture is a very strong indicator of success. All of the yammering  about more money for poor urban schools (mine already has one of the highest per capita spending in the state) ignores that fact.

It's unfortunate but for people that work in education, they can't fix parental involvement. I recall seeing a stat that success can pretty much be predicted by how many books a student's parents own. That sucks. I can speak from experience that my parents drove home the importance of education. If I had trouble in class they were always willing to help me with my homework or meetwo with my teachers or find someone willing to help me. I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have that.

The notion that kids will absorb their parents' attitudes toward education is not completely accurate. My daughter had two years of my very best effort-- and if my book ownership was any predictor of her success she'd be Doogie Howser by now.  It didn't stick. I was able to get her through 10th grade and part of 11th, but ultimately the ready availability of a group of people who really, truly, honestly don't believe that education is important ended up being more of an influence.

I'm one of the best tutors in town, but ironically as an educator I've been an utter failure with my daughter. I did bring her reading level up from 2nd grade to 9th with some highly unorthodox methods, but I can't tutor someone who is not willing to look at the book, pick up a pencil, do an exercise, or do anything but pout or throw tantrums instead of completing an assignment or following the teacher's instructions or mine. My power is limited. I can only teach someone who wants to learn.

When a child who doesn't want to learn has access to a house where she or he can go instead of being in school, when there's someone willing to come pick the minor up from his or her home, take the minor out of that home, and drive the minor somewhere else without the parent's knowledge or consent, and when there are adults with vehicles ready and waiting to pick the minor up from school, the parent can't do a damn thing. School rules prohibit the parent from showing up to frog-march the high school student from one class to another, and because there are breaks between classes and students are entitled to bathroom breaks, a student who wants to escape from the school generally can. To keep a child in school therefore requires the united effort of an entire community, neighborhood, or extended family.

More than once, I've had one of my child's school friends ask if they could "hang out" at my place during school hours. I said no. My home is closed while my daughter is at school and I'm at work. Just because I occasionally work from home does not mean I'm available to babysit somebody who is playing truant. Unfortunately, nobody in my daughter's bio-family has that mentality. So she runs to the bio-family and to various lowlife friends (and in my opinion, anyone willing to sabotage a child's education is a lowlife) and POW! Not only does she get away with not being in school, but she sets off an enormous shitstorm.

The upshot of all of this is that my daughter, with a great deal of help from the lowlifes in her life, has chosen to be a pig-ignorant dropout. She's starting to figure out what she can actually afford with a dropout education and a dropout work ethic. It's not pretty and it's going to get uglier when she reaches her majority. She's chosen a life of extreme poverty because she refuses to do what it takes to get skills to exchange for an honest dollar.

Parental involvement means diddly-ding if there's a gigantic enabler network in place to reward dropout behavior or to at least delay its consequences. In the underclass, just such an enabler network exists. Plenty of people are thrilled to open their homes to a teen who ought to be in school, if it means that teen can babysit younger children while Mommy works, goes shopping, or naps. Lots of people are overjoyed to take a teen along to an ultrasound appointment, or the mall, or a hair or nail appointment during the day, just to have company. If the teen gets an allowance or has access to resources, clothing, or anything else that can be mooched away, so much the better! So the teen feels important and gets lots of what feels like love and respect, and gleefully deep-sixes his or her own education in order to gratify and enable various lowlifes. Result: eventually one more lowlife joins the herd.
Wow, commiserations!
You mention your daughter's bio family - are you her bio parent? Just interested in the nature/nurture thing. Our son recently found his biological father whom we always thought would be anonymous. We have been amazed at the similarities in their lives, not just physical things but the same university, the same results, similar hobbies and interests, he even works in the same field as his biological grandfather.

Letj

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3672 on: October 01, 2017, 05:12:31 AM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

Agreed, parental guidance and family culture is a very strong indicator of success. All of the yammering  about more money for poor urban schools (mine already has one of the highest per capita spending in the state) ignores that fact.

It's not just family culture; it's also the prevailing culture where you live. I know plenty of people from developing countries whose family were dirt poor but the culture valued education and so the children worked hard in school even with no support at home. In fact, they did not have to be told to do their home work. They saw school as a way out of poverty.

Letj

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3673 on: October 01, 2017, 05:31:14 AM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

Agreed, parental guidance and family culture is a very strong indicator of success. All of the yammering  about more money for poor urban schools (mine already has one of the highest per capita spending in the state) ignores that fact.

It's unfortunate but for people that work in education, they can't fix parental involvement. I recall seeing a stat that success can pretty much be predicted by how many books a student's parents own. That sucks. I can speak from experience that my parents drove home the importance of education. If I had trouble in class they were always willing to help me with my homework or meetwo with my teachers or find someone willing to help me. I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have that.

The notion that kids will absorb their parents' attitudes toward education is not completely accurate. My daughter had two years of my very best effort-- and if my book ownership was any predictor of her success she'd be Doogie Howser by now.  It didn't stick. I was able to get her through 10th grade and part of 11th, but ultimately the ready availability of a group of people who really, truly, honestly don't believe that education is important ended up being more of an influence.

I'm one of the best tutors in town, but ironically as an educator I've been an utter failure with my daughter. I did bring her reading level up from 2nd grade to 9th with some highly unorthodox methods, but I can't tutor someone who is not willing to look at the book, pick up a pencil, do an exercise, or do anything but pout or throw tantrums instead of completing an assignment or following the teacher's instructions or mine. My power is limited. I can only teach someone who wants to learn.

When a child who doesn't want to learn has access to a house where she or he can go instead of being in school, when there's someone willing to come pick the minor up from his or her home, take the minor out of that home, and drive the minor somewhere else without the parent's knowledge or consent, and when there are adults with vehicles ready and waiting to pick the minor up from school, the parent can't do a damn thing. School rules prohibit the parent from showing up to frog-march the high school student from one class to another, and because there are breaks between classes and students are entitled to bathroom breaks, a student who wants to escape from the school generally can. To keep a child in school therefore requires the united effort of an entire community, neighborhood, or extended family.

More than once, I've had one of my child's school friends ask if they could "hang out" at my place during school hours. I said no. My home is closed while my daughter is at school and I'm at work. Just because I occasionally work from home does not mean I'm available to babysit somebody who is playing truant. Unfortunately, nobody in my daughter's bio-family has that mentality. So she runs to the bio-family and to various lowlife friends (and in my opinion, anyone willing to sabotage a child's education is a lowlife) and POW! Not only does she get away with not being in school, but she sets off an enormous shitstorm.

The upshot of all of this is that my daughter, with a great deal of help from the lowlifes in her life, has chosen to be a pig-ignorant dropout. She's starting to figure out what she can actually afford with a dropout education and a dropout work ethic. It's not pretty and it's going to get uglier when she reaches her majority. She's chosen a life of extreme poverty because she refuses to do what it takes to get skills to exchange for an honest dollar.

Parental involvement means diddly-ding if there's a gigantic enabler network in place to reward dropout behavior or to at least delay its consequences. In the underclass, just such an enabler network exists. Plenty of people are thrilled to open their homes to a teen who ought to be in school, if it means that teen can babysit younger children while Mommy works, goes shopping, or naps. Lots of people are overjoyed to take a teen along to an ultrasound appointment, or the mall, or a hair or nail appointment during the day, just to have company. If the teen gets an allowance or has access to resources, clothing, or anything else that can be mooched away, so much the better! So the teen feels important and gets lots of what feels like love and respect, and gleefully deep-sixes his or her own education in order to gratify and enable various lowlifes. Result: eventually one more lowlife joins the herd.

OMG. This is the best analysis of how a teen can sabotage their own education and is so representative of what I've personally seen happen to teen drop outs. There's always always adult enablers and other 'friends' enablers and there is not a darn thing any parent can do to stop this unless they are willing to make radical changes like moving away. It takes a united effort of the school, community and extended family and unfortunately not everyone values education and we don't live in a connected community anymore. My daughter is similar to your daughter in the sense that you can't make her do homework, turn in work for extra credit nor accept a tutor and I think a lot of it has to do with ADHD for which I have never given medication. However, as a junior in high school, she is beginning to connect the lack of ecucation with a mediocre life. What helps us is living in an area where she cannot walk to friend's house and not many people of her age are around to hang out with.

fredbear

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3674 on: October 01, 2017, 12:13:59 PM »
...The upshot of all of this is that my daughter, with a great deal of help from the lowlifes in her life, has chosen to be a pig-ignorant dropout. She's starting to figure out what she can actually afford with a dropout education and a dropout work ethic. It's not pretty and it's going to get uglier when she reaches her majority. She's chosen a life of extreme poverty because she refuses to do what it takes to get skills to exchange for an honest dollar.

...

Aw, shit, GS, you've been foreshadowing this for months; I am as un-surprised as I am deeply sorry it has reached this point.  Declining a life of active, effective agency is so seductive.  God help her.  You've been silent as to substance abuse, and I hope that never plays a part here.  It's so poor as comfort, but sometimes you end with the thought that perhaps a seed will germinate, and you did all you could do, which is certainly true.

I have no very clear idea how early it starts, and how reversible it is.  Probably earlier than we want to acknowledge, and hardly at all.  I inherited an employee part of whose job was to do the monthly statistics.  After quite thoroughly training her, I went back to my job, but after a few months thought, "Wait a minute.  That can't be right."  And it was not right.  She had been making the numbers up, completely.  Every one of them.  The point here is the complete, total miss on communication, on world view.  To her, it was this weird mystery - the people above her in the office wanted numbers, God knows why.  They are just little patterns on a page.  But if that's what they want, that's what they get: she gave us numbers.  Obviously a number's a number.  Though she would not have said it this way, numbers are fungible.  You have a sheet of paper with the month labelled on the top; you stick numbers in; you've done your job.    To me, and the managers above me, numbers are an asymptotic approach to reality.  I reacted with a kind of horrified surprise, but also with indignation.  She faked the numbers.  How could you?  A blow at the roots of science, engineering, human cognition.  She, on the other hand, was sincerely baffled as to why I would be so upset.  It was just a bunch of numbers.   I realized, dimly, that there was no connection whatever between numbers and her daily reality.  I don't know how you bring this kind of thing home.  I didn't even try.  You at least have the comfort that you have tried as hard as a human can try.

pachnik

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3675 on: October 01, 2017, 12:22:53 PM »
Yes, GrimSqueaker,  I am sorry things have come to this point for you.  I know how hard you worked from previous posts to keep this from happening.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3676 on: October 01, 2017, 12:40:26 PM »
...

Adoptive. Out of foster care. I did make some progress, but ultimately the lowlifes are winning.

former player

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3677 on: October 01, 2017, 01:23:57 PM »
...

Adoptive. Out of foster care. I did make some progress, but ultimately the lowlifes are winning.
So sorry.  It looks as though you did everything you could and it worked for quite a while, until the irresistible forces took over.  Do you have any plans for what to do when she reaches 18?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3678 on: October 01, 2017, 01:41:46 PM »
I just read this book a few days ago, and the author tells how no one in his family ever told him the importance of homework, getting good grades, how to apply to college, etc. It's tough to escape poverty when you don't know how. It was a good read.

Into the Magic Shop, by James Doty, MD.

https://www.amazon.com/Into-Magic-Shop-Neurosurgeons-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B00YBBKMHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506792215&sr=8-1&keywords=into+the+magic+shop+by+james+doty

Agreed, parental guidance and family culture is a very strong indicator of success. All of the yammering  about more money for poor urban schools (mine already has one of the highest per capita spending in the state) ignores that fact.

It's unfortunate but for people that work in education, they can't fix parental involvement. I recall seeing a stat that success can pretty much be predicted by how many books a student's parents own. That sucks. I can speak from experience that my parents drove home the importance of education. If I had trouble in class they were always willing to help me with my homework or meetwo with my teachers or find someone willing to help me. I cannot imagine what it would be like to not have that.

The notion that kids will absorb their parents' attitudes toward education is not completely accurate. My daughter had two years of my very best effort-- and if my book ownership was any predictor of her success she'd be Doogie Howser by now.  It didn't stick. I was able to get her through 10th grade and part of 11th, but ultimately the ready availability of a group of people who really, truly, honestly don't believe that education is important ended up being more of an influence.

I'm one of the best tutors in town, but ironically as an educator I've been an utter failure with my daughter. I did bring her reading level up from 2nd grade to 9th with some highly unorthodox methods, but I can't tutor someone who is not willing to look at the book, pick up a pencil, do an exercise, or do anything but pout or throw tantrums instead of completing an assignment or following the teacher's instructions or mine. My power is limited. I can only teach someone who wants to learn.

When a child who doesn't want to learn has access to a house where she or he can go instead of being in school, when there's someone willing to come pick the minor up from his or her home, take the minor out of that home, and drive the minor somewhere else without the parent's knowledge or consent, and when there are adults with vehicles ready and waiting to pick the minor up from school, the parent can't do a damn thing. School rules prohibit the parent from showing up to frog-march the high school student from one class to another, and because there are breaks between classes and students are entitled to bathroom breaks, a student who wants to escape from the school generally can. To keep a child in school therefore requires the united effort of an entire community, neighborhood, or extended family.

More than once, I've had one of my child's school friends ask if they could "hang out" at my place during school hours. I said no. My home is closed while my daughter is at school and I'm at work. Just because I occasionally work from home does not mean I'm available to babysit somebody who is playing truant. Unfortunately, nobody in my daughter's bio-family has that mentality. So she runs to the bio-family and to various lowlife friends (and in my opinion, anyone willing to sabotage a child's education is a lowlife) and POW! Not only does she get away with not being in school, but she sets off an enormous shitstorm.

The upshot of all of this is that my daughter, with a great deal of help from the lowlifes in her life, has chosen to be a pig-ignorant dropout. She's starting to figure out what she can actually afford with a dropout education and a dropout work ethic. It's not pretty and it's going to get uglier when she reaches her majority. She's chosen a life of extreme poverty because she refuses to do what it takes to get skills to exchange for an honest dollar.

Parental involvement means diddly-ding if there's a gigantic enabler network in place to reward dropout behavior or to at least delay its consequences. In the underclass, just such an enabler network exists. Plenty of people are thrilled to open their homes to a teen who ought to be in school, if it means that teen can babysit younger children while Mommy works, goes shopping, or naps. Lots of people are overjoyed to take a teen along to an ultrasound appointment, or the mall, or a hair or nail appointment during the day, just to have company. If the teen gets an allowance or has access to resources, clothing, or anything else that can be mooched away, so much the better! So the teen feels important and gets lots of what feels like love and respect, and gleefully deep-sixes his or her own education in order to gratify and enable various lowlifes. Result: eventually one more lowlife joins the herd.

Things may still work out. I have two friends who met while she was a waitress and he was a barman at a spring break kind of bar in Florida. Suddenly, (oops) she was pregnant, and they had to make some decisions about what to do with their lives. She is now a Civil Engineer with an upper-level management position, and he is an Anesthesiologist. They started later than most, but they made it work.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3679 on: October 01, 2017, 02:31:54 PM »
I'm so sorry GrimSqueaker. I've seen some adults like this (parents are good while kid is a lowlife) and wondered at the disconnect. Now I get it. Should be horrifying to deal with it at close quarters. Since you are legally responsible for the kid, can you call the cops on the adults that aid her in skipping school? Taking kids illegally from school is abduction. Cops called a few times might discourage the lowlife adults from aiding in skipping school.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3680 on: October 01, 2017, 03:25:32 PM »
I really don't know where I come down on the nature vs nurture debate.  I look at my family and it is all over the board.  To the best of my knowledge, I'm the only adult male who has never has sex with a family member and/or an under aged girl.  I'm one of the few who don't have a criminal record.  I do know that being different from the rest of your family is hard to do.  I am still regarded as the "college boy sellout", although I never even enrolled.  I started figuring it out when I was around 11.  Fathers shouldn't be having sex with daughters, stealing is wrong, gaming the welfare system is not right, even if it is "paid for by the rich people."  My father and his father ran a small auto repair business in the late 70's/ early 80's.  The real money came from the chop shop.  I still remember them explaining to me that we are not stealing from people, we are taking from the insurance companies.  And it's not really taking from the insurance companies because they are still making profit.  I think they actually believed that.  I also remember them calling me a faggot because I was still a virgin at 12.  There were two sisters and about 5 female cousins around afterall. I am so glad that I left as soon as possible.  I also purposefully keep my distance from the majority of my family. 

My oldest sister is 50, and she is just now getting her shit straight.  My other sister is a year younger, and figured it out in her mid 30's.  She is doing fine.  Runs her own business and has a loving husband who also got away from a deadbeat family.  I am doing great financially, have a few good friends, but have never had a relationship that lasted more than 3 years.  I will say that I do not at all feel comfortable being alone with any girls between about age 5 to 20.  I don't have those desires, but can understand one having them.  That understanding alone bothers me.  My younger brother, who killed himself a few months ago, never did get his footing.  He was probably about $100/mo from being homeless, and I suspect he was a few times.  8 years ago he asked if he could move in with me.  He has 2 felony convictions for ID theft and fraud.  I told him that he could, but he would need to leave the drugs in California, $400/mo for rent and utilities, pay for his own food.  I would cover everything for 2 months at the beginning.   If he stole from me, he is out that day.  If he got arrested, he is out 2 weeks after his release.  3 months before his suicide, he posted on FB about how his older brother turned his back on him. 

4 kids, all from the same fucked up background.  4 very different life outcomes. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3681 on: October 01, 2017, 04:04:10 PM »
I really don't know where I come down on the nature vs nurture debate.  I look at my family and it is all over the board.  To the best of my knowledge, I'm the only adult male who has never has sex with a family member and/or an under aged girl.  I'm one of the few who don't have a criminal record.  I do know that being different from the rest of your family is hard to do.  I am still regarded as the "college boy sellout", although I never even enrolled.  I started figuring it out when I was around 11.  Fathers shouldn't be having sex with daughters, stealing is wrong, gaming the welfare system is not right, even if it is "paid for by the rich people."  My father and his father ran a small auto repair business in the late 70's/ early 80's.  The real money came from the chop shop.  I still remember them explaining to me that we are not stealing from people, we are taking from the insurance companies.  And it's not really taking from the insurance companies because they are still making profit.  I think they actually believed that.  I also remember them calling me a faggot because I was still a virgin at 12.  There were two sisters and about 5 female cousins around afterall. I am so glad that I left as soon as possible.  I also purposefully keep my distance from the majority of my family. 

My oldest sister is 50, and she is just now getting her shit straight.  My other sister is a year younger, and figured it out in her mid 30's.  She is doing fine.  Runs her own business and has a loving husband who also got away from a deadbeat family.  I am doing great financially, have a few good friends, but have never had a relationship that lasted more than 3 years.  I will say that I do not at all feel comfortable being alone with any girls between about age 5 to 20.  I don't have those desires, but can understand one having them.  That understanding alone bothers me.  My younger brother, who killed himself a few months ago, never did get his footing.  He was probably about $100/mo from being homeless, and I suspect he was a few times.  8 years ago he asked if he could move in with me.  He has 2 felony convictions for ID theft and fraud.  I told him that he could, but he would need to leave the drugs in California, $400/mo for rent and utilities, pay for his own food.  I would cover everything for 2 months at the beginning.   If he stole from me, he is out that day.  If he got arrested, he is out 2 weeks after his release.  3 months before his suicide, he posted on FB about how his older brother turned his back on him. 

4 kids, all from the same fucked up background.  4 very different life outcomes.
Wow.

Forget about posting in this thread, that story deserves its own book.

Step37

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3682 on: October 01, 2017, 05:02:04 PM »
...I also purposefully keep my distance from the majority of my family.  .

Small wonder.

I honestly do not understand how anyone can get him/herself removed from such a situation. What a feat. You have my admiration.

marielle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3683 on: October 02, 2017, 07:06:16 AM »
Wow.

Forget about posting in this thread, that story deserves its own book.

Yeah, a book or at least a blog. Seriously.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3684 on: October 02, 2017, 08:12:23 AM »
...

Adoptive. Out of foster care. I did make some progress, but ultimately the lowlifes are winning.

That does explain part of the situation though. No matter how much love and effort you have put into taking care of your child, she must have been seriously abused or neglected to end up in foster care. There are a lot of causes as to why people end up like this. Some of them are genetic (like lower IQ, certain character traits, vulnerable to addiction) others are through childhood trauma and still others are from bad parenting. Good parenting for a certain period of her life apparantly can't compensate for the bad parenting, childhood trauma and/or genetic traits that she might have. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but you should be really proud of yourself that you tried. That says a lot about your character. She's clearly damaged, but I hope at some point in the future she can somewhat heal and see what you did for her.

Both my partner and I are from disfunctional families (although we were never taken into care, we were on the radar of social services) and we have ended up doing very well, but it's been hard for us. We have managed to mostly heal, but it helped that we were both intelligent and not sensitive to peer pressure or bad friends. Our siblings are doing well above expectation (as in, no teenage pregnancies, no drug problems, no criminal records, most of us have jobs, etc) but we have all have had problems with attachment and some have troubled personal lives with many short-term relationships, alcohol problems etc.

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3685 on: October 02, 2017, 08:54:11 AM »
I think I've posted some in here about my brother in law. But he's really worrying me, not just because of the financial situation.

He has PSTD (survivor of a mass shooting). He is seeing a counselor/psychiatrist, but I can guarantee he is lying/not being transparent in his appointments. He's on uppers and downers, but not a stabilizer. Well, because certain jobs are beneath him, he's been unemployed for almost a year. He shouldn't have hardly any bills, as he lives with mom and dad, but jeebers, we just found out he's deep in debt! Like, it would take my wife and I on our combined income about 2 years to get out of it if it was ours.

I'm flabberghasted. And he still won't go get a bartending job, because he wants a career, not a job. Guess what dude, no one wants to hire you. Go get some experience somewhere doing something. This isn't working.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3686 on: October 02, 2017, 09:50:49 AM »
...

Adoptive. Out of foster care. I did make some progress, but ultimately the lowlifes are winning.
So sorry.  It looks as though you did everything you could and it worked for quite a while, until the irresistible forces took over.  Do you have any plans for what to do when she reaches 18?

Yes. It involves several new pairs of fuzzy socks, some chocolate raspberry flavored dessert wine, possible home renovations, and a lengthy vacation with the Venomous Spaz Beast. I'm socking away extra vacation time as we squeak, and bottled the wine yesterday so that it's at the peak of its perfection in a few months.

saguaro

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3687 on: October 02, 2017, 10:00:24 AM »
Those of us who grew up in middle class homes take it as a given that working hard in school to get a good education is the key to success, but it's got to be tough to believe that when you've grown up in poverty and literally never seen it happen.

Went to elementary school in my middle class neighborhood, and it was emphasized how working hard in school was key to success in life, even if it seemed very far off to us kids. If any student failed to make grade level in a subject, especially in reading, they were given special attention, tutoring or whatever was necessary to get them up to speed. 

However fast forward to high school which was the second largest high school in a major metro area, with about 3,500 students.  Many of the students coming from the poorer parts of the district not only were way behind and in remedial classes, but even those who were up to the appropriate grade levels not saw no value in education.  Quite the eye opener for me, it was such a contrast from elementary school.   Many of these students dropped out, in fact, some couldn't wait until they turned 16 so they could legally quit.  I remember my home room teacher during my second year almost begging students to not drop out, that it would adversely impact their future, but they honestly didn't get it.  I saw upfront through various friends that they had no reference point for this. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 10:06:09 AM by saguaro »

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3688 on: October 02, 2017, 10:02:27 AM »
...

Adoptive. Out of foster care. I did make some progress, but ultimately the lowlifes are winning.

That does explain part of the situation though. No matter how much love and effort you have put into taking care of your child, she must have been seriously abused or neglected to end up in foster care.
Not necessarily. The abuse was relatively minor compared to what many people on this board went through during ordinary life. A lot of us have our attachment circuitry melted. That being said, we make different choices because we have different values.
Quote
...
Good parenting for a certain period of her life apparantly can't compensate for the bad parenting, childhood trauma and/or genetic traits that she might have.
The good parenting was actually for the majority of her life. I've been in contact with several of the people who raised her and a couple of families who even tried to adopt her prior to me. For a variety of reasons, she's just disposed to find the biggest lowlifes she possibly can and party down with them. It's a compulsion for her. She was groomed to be an enabler, it's what she loves, values, and wants to be. I have not been able to break that conditioning or her fascination for lowlifes.

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3689 on: October 02, 2017, 11:10:10 AM »
...I also purposefully keep my distance from the majority of my family.  .

Small wonder.

I honestly do not understand how anyone can get him/herself removed from such a situation. What a feat. You have my admiration.

Agreed! I'm not particularly close to either of my siblings but that is solely due to not having similar enough interests. We care about each other. I'm very glad you got out of that toxic environment!

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3690 on: October 02, 2017, 11:15:33 AM »
I forgot to post about this, but my sister was in town about a week ago. I love my sister but it is very hard to hang out with her for a long period of time because after a little while she starts probing into my life and then making clear judgments that I'm not living it correctly.

This time she started going off about how I should go get an MBA and then work for a corporate company. I'm making a good living doing what I'm doing now and see no need to spend 2 years paying tuition only to get a job that will pay me about the same that I'm getting paid now. She knows that I plan to retire within 10 years and went off about how that isn't "typical," to which I said, "I don't care what's typical, I care about what I want. It sounds like you want to work in a corporate structure, so go ahead and do that."

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3691 on: October 02, 2017, 12:17:56 PM »
What happened to the father of the two children?

He was not interested. A complete loser!

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3692 on: October 02, 2017, 12:57:04 PM »
I was a social worker for awhile and M1970 is so right. Lots of reason for poverty and very difficult to escape. It takes a lot of support, money and time.  I had a friend on welfare that had 2 kids and wanted to go back to school. Her Mom died and she lost her free babysitter.  My husband & I babysat for free for 3 years, I enlisted her Dad and my Mom as backups since both were retired.  Then her last year they cut her food stamps because of her financial aid. She had to pay for books & tuition with that $.  She thought she was going to have to quit so she could feed her kids. We were far from rich but helped her with food as did her Dad.  We did not buy each other gifts so her kids had some gifts under the tree.  She graduated and got a job. It was awesome. However, look at the long term commitment and the number of people and money it took to make this happen.

In my experience it takes the long-term commitment of at least 5 average, functional adults to bring a baby all the way to self-sufficiency while dealing with the random ups and downs we call "life". The key word there is "functional" because there are plenty of people who aren't able to function as adults by managing their own lives and holding up their end of an agreement. Some people perform at a higher-than-average rate as contributors, however others can't be counted as contributors because they are disorganized, irresponsible, sick, practicing an addiction, or for some other reason unable to reliably lend a hand. Also, for each dependent the proto-adult has, I mentally add one more functional person to the necessary network.

This is why, for the most part, the "nuclear family" concept doesn't work well under stress. There isn't enough of a network to survive the loss of one or both of the adults.

My hat is off to your friend because she made it work and attained independence. Plenty of other people in her situation never do, even after receiving substantial support from the people around them.

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3693 on: October 02, 2017, 01:38:51 PM »
I was a social worker for awhile and M1970 is so right. Lots of reason for poverty and very difficult to escape. It takes a lot of support, money and time.  I had a friend on welfare that had 2 kids and wanted to go back to school. Her Mom died and she lost her free babysitter.  My husband & I babysat for free for 3 years, I enlisted her Dad and my Mom as backups since both were retired.  Then her last year they cut her food stamps because of her financial aid. She had to pay for books & tuition with that $.  She thought she was going to have to quit so she could feed her kids. We were far from rich but helped her with food as did her Dad.  We did not buy each other gifts so her kids had some gifts under the tree.  She graduated and got a job. It was awesome. However, look at the long term commitment and the number of people and money it took to make this happen.

In my experience it takes the long-term commitment of at least 5 average, functional adults to bring a baby all the way to self-sufficiency while dealing with the random ups and downs we call "life". The key word there is "functional" because there are plenty of people who aren't able to function as adults by managing their own lives and holding up their end of an agreement. Some people perform at a higher-than-average rate as contributors, however others can't be counted as contributors because they are disorganized, irresponsible, sick, practicing an addiction, or for some other reason unable to reliably lend a hand. Also, for each dependent the proto-adult has, I mentally add one more functional person to the necessary network.

This is why, for the most part, the "nuclear family" concept doesn't work well under stress. There isn't enough of a network to survive the loss of one or both of the adults.

My hat is off to your friend because she made it work and attained independence. Plenty of other people in her situation never do, even after receiving substantial support from the people around them.

Just wanted to thank you for justifying our move (a few years ago) to be nearer our families. We don't have kids yet, but are planning on it.

Also note that sometimes one of the "5 functional adults" may be a manager--just by letting a parent go pick up a sick kid from school, they've saved a job. Little things like that that you don't even think about, but if someone would lose their job because they left in the middle of the day without warning, it would be devastating, unfair, and nothing could be done about it.

Dragonswan

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3694 on: October 02, 2017, 01:50:58 PM »
Uturn and GS - was that the sound of a mic I heard dropping? Because both of these are epic and thought provoking.  Thank you for posting.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3695 on: October 02, 2017, 03:18:28 PM »
I was a social worker for awhile and M1970 is so right. Lots of reason for poverty and very difficult to escape. It takes a lot of support, money and time.  I had a friend on welfare that had 2 kids and wanted to go back to school. Her Mom died and she lost her free babysitter.  My husband & I babysat for free for 3 years, I enlisted her Dad and my Mom as backups since both were retired.  Then her last year they cut her food stamps because of her financial aid. She had to pay for books & tuition with that $.  She thought she was going to have to quit so she could feed her kids. We were far from rich but helped her with food as did her Dad.  We did not buy each other gifts so her kids had some gifts under the tree.  She graduated and got a job. It was awesome. However, look at the long term commitment and the number of people and money it took to make this happen.

In my experience it takes the long-term commitment of at least 5 average, functional adults to bring a baby all the way to self-sufficiency while dealing with the random ups and downs we call "life". The key word there is "functional" because there are plenty of people who aren't able to function as adults by managing their own lives and holding up their end of an agreement. Some people perform at a higher-than-average rate as contributors, however others can't be counted as contributors because they are disorganized, irresponsible, sick, practicing an addiction, or for some other reason unable to reliably lend a hand. Also, for each dependent the proto-adult has, I mentally add one more functional person to the necessary network.

This is why, for the most part, the "nuclear family" concept doesn't work well under stress. There isn't enough of a network to survive the loss of one or both of the adults.

My hat is off to your friend because she made it work and attained independence. Plenty of other people in her situation never do, even after receiving substantial support from the people around them.

Just wanted to thank you for justifying our move (a few years ago) to be nearer our families. We don't have kids yet, but are planning on it.

Also note that sometimes one of the "5 functional adults" may be a manager--just by letting a parent go pick up a sick kid from school, they've saved a job. Little things like that that you don't even think about, but if someone would lose their job because they left in the middle of the day without warning, it would be devastating, unfair, and nothing could be done about it.

Single parents can and do lose their jobs for exactly this reason. It happens all the time in the United States. The economy has tiers, and the people on several tiers do not have the right to sick pay or medical leave to care for a sick child. This is one of the reasons why single parents of multiple children have a greater probability of being unemployed even if they have access to subsidized day care.

On paper there's a thing called the "Family and Medical Leave Act" that says you can't be fired for being sick or for having a sick kid. In practice, for hourly-paid workers or contract workers there is no such protection: if you get sick your hours are cut and given to someone else.

One of the worst things a working-class American can do is get sick or injured.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3696 on: October 02, 2017, 03:21:54 PM »
I was a social worker for awhile and M1970 is so right. Lots of reason for poverty and very difficult to escape. It takes a lot of support, money and time.  I had a friend on welfare that had 2 kids and wanted to go back to school. Her Mom died and she lost her free babysitter.  My husband & I babysat for free for 3 years, I enlisted her Dad and my Mom as backups since both were retired.  Then her last year they cut her food stamps because of her financial aid. She had to pay for books & tuition with that $.  She thought she was going to have to quit so she could feed her kids. We were far from rich but helped her with food as did her Dad.  We did not buy each other gifts so her kids had some gifts under the tree.  She graduated and got a job. It was awesome. However, look at the long term commitment and the number of people and money it took to make this happen.

In my experience it takes the long-term commitment of at least 5 average, functional adults to bring a baby all the way to self-sufficiency while dealing with the random ups and downs we call "life". The key word there is "functional" because there are plenty of people who aren't able to function as adults by managing their own lives and holding up their end of an agreement. Some people perform at a higher-than-average rate as contributors, however others can't be counted as contributors because they are disorganized, irresponsible, sick, practicing an addiction, or for some other reason unable to reliably lend a hand. Also, for each dependent the proto-adult has, I mentally add one more functional person to the necessary network.

This is why, for the most part, the "nuclear family" concept doesn't work well under stress. There isn't enough of a network to survive the loss of one or both of the adults.

My hat is off to your friend because she made it work and attained independence. Plenty of other people in her situation never do, even after receiving substantial support from the people around them.
Both of these are very good points also.

Long ago I read a post on FB of a local woman who was looking for affordable childcare.  She was half way through her community college degree, but lost her funding for child care.  She had 2 kids (first one in HS) and by now was in her 20s just trying to get a decent job.  She at least had a sense of humor and joked that "They should take me around to high schools and use me as a poster child as to why you shouldn't have a kid in high school!"

The father of the children often runs off.  Doesn't pay child support.  It takes work to get that support, and going to court.

I am lucky that I'm in a good solid marriage.  We are far from our families.  But we have a nice core of neighbors that help each other out with kid dropoff/ pickup/ etc.  It's work.  We can afford to pay for more adult help too.

Dezrah

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3697 on: October 02, 2017, 05:17:36 PM »
Given the general direction this thread has taken, I think a lot of people here would enjoy this podcast specifically:

the-boys-hang-with-rabbit-aka-ms-pat

The hosts are self-described liberal rednecks.  If you want to avoid the more political stuff, just skip to Ms. Pat's interview.  She is quite possibly the most fascinating and engaging woman I have ever heard.  She came out of extreme dysfunction, poverty, racism, welfare, hustling, violence, etc.  Now she's a successful comedian making FU money.  I'm excited to pick up her book.

iris lily

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3698 on: October 02, 2017, 09:52:39 PM »
Given the general direction this thread has taken, I think a lot of people here would enjoy this podcast specifically:

the-boys-hang-with-rabbit-aka-ms-pat

The hosts are self-described liberal rednecks.  If you want to avoid the more political stuff, just skip to Ms. Pat's interview.  She is quite possibly the most fascinating and engaging woman I have ever heard.  She came out of extreme dysfunction, poverty, racism, welfare, hustling, violence, etc.  Now she's a successful comedian making FU money.  I'm excited to pick up her book.

What a cooincidence, I just picked up Ms Pat's book today at the library. Picked it up, read the blurb and a paragraph or two about when she was making $6,000 a DAY! put it down because I have a stack of books yet to read at home, but it sounds good!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 07:19:13 PM by iris lily »

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3699 on: October 04, 2017, 04:39:34 PM »
When our kids were little we moved by my parents. My Dad had a big stroke and I helped my Mom and she watched my kids so I could go to college.  It was a win-win for everyone. And my friend that I helped would watch my kids too. Plus my Mom's childhood friend would watch my youngest after school when my Mom took a vacation.  It does indeed take a village.