Relatives who just don't get it

[sw1tch]

How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

Reading this brought out a twinge in my neck..  I can relate and (sadly) one-up this.  Not only were my accomplishments not all that important, but I was supposed to be the one to shower the gifts onto those others that "needed" it.  So, no help from parents and I had to be a surrogate parent to other siblings and to the parents themselves.

[mm1970]

How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

I can relate.

On the other hand... go fund me.  I had an interesting experience with it recently, as one family member and one friend put them out there for help.

Now, in general, I'm not opposed to go fund me.  Sometimes, people just need help.

But I couldn't help to think about it -
- in the case of my niece, she got sober and was fundraising for tuition for a class to teach a particular kind of exercise.  She recently got her degree in counseling, and feels that it will help her be a better counselor.  (After being a bartender well into her 30's.)  Interestingly, the amount wasn't high - less than $4000.  I noticed that not a single family member donated.  Not her mother or brother.  Only friends.  Not aunts (and there are a lot of us).  Now, my family tends to be all "bootstraps".  But my own personal thought (aside from I rarely see her, so why ask me?), is that she's in her mid-30s and has a job.  Save up for a year and then take the class.

[wannabe-stache]

I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.

Some of our less well-off family came to town for the birth of our first child a month ago (yay!).  They are some of the kin that we have shared the MMM philosophy with and they have made some changes (bought a lawnmower to cut their own grass, cut out 5x coffee trips each week, etc.).

The rented an AirBNB a couple doors down, so they had a kitchen to utilize.  Instead of using the kitchen, they ate out for lunch nearly every single day, and restaurants around us are not cheap.  and there wasn't a day that went by that they weren't running to dunkin donuts for coffee.

i am fairly certain that they have a negative net worth.  and they have 2 kids under 5 years old that have kiddie toys galore.

i just don't get it.  neither do they.

[Sibley]

I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.

Some of our less well-off family came to town for the birth of our first child a month ago (yay!).  They are some of the kin that we have shared the MMM philosophy with and they have made some changes (bought a lawnmower to cut their own grass, cut out 5x coffee trips each week, etc.).

The rented an AirBNB a couple doors down, so they had a kitchen to utilize.  Instead of using the kitchen, they ate out for lunch nearly every single day, and restaurants around us are not cheap.  and there wasn't a day that went by that they weren't running to dunkin donuts for coffee.

i am fairly certain that they have a negative net worth.  and they have 2 kids under 5 years old that have kiddie toys galore.

i just don't get it.  neither do they.

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency. 

[StockBeard]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

[paddedhat]

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.

[cheapass]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

[Proud Foot]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

[Sibley]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

I'm not questioning the numbers. I'm questioning one of 2 things, or possibly both:

1. Such low risk tolerance that $3M is needed to FIRE.
2. Expenses are so high as to require $3M to FIRE.

[Abundant life]

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.

Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?

[With This Herring]

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.

Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?

I would guess that the social experiment was PaddedHat's strict/traditional upbringing being used as a control subject against the half-siblings raised as no-rules test subjects.  So, both.

[AlanStache]

I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.
...

A 3MM FIRE number is VERY high for around here.  Typically we do not include property values or other non-stock market assets as part of the '4% rule' as the 4% rule is based off long term average stock market returns.  If you have positive net worth now and are saving 70-80% your FIRE date should not be 10 years out unless you have some big expenses coming up (paying for kids Stanford education, buying your parents a yacht, going to space with Virgin Galactic, etc).  It might be useful to post a case study in a new thread if you are unsure how 4% applies to your specific situation.

[paddedhat]

Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?
[/quote]
I would guess that the social experiment was PaddedHat's strict/traditional upbringing being used as a control subject against the half-siblings raised as no-rules test subjects.  So, both.
[/quote]
[/color]
The entire family, and the polar opposite approach to child rearing, was the experiment. My side of the deal was not extreme enough to qualify as a  "quasi-military" experience, but more of a rigid, traditional, mid-century approach to "family values" one would expect from much of the working class, white America, at that time. My brother and sister were nearly a decade younger, and there experience was a lot less disciplined, and more of a "do your own thing, judgement free, Mom is here to be your buddy, not a mentor, or discplinarian" experience. This really WAS cutting edge, early 1970s "best practice" psychological garbage, shoveled at many universities at that point. By the time I was out of the house, my half sister was basically out of control, and Mom was deep into a 60 hr a week career.  At that point, IMHO, guilt became a major driver of their relationship. Mom spent the next few decades coddling and enabling to the point that it was pretty horrible to watch, and I only did so at a distance.

 The DW and I raised two decent young adults, and we retired with no financial worries, about 15 years early. My half-bro has been completely broke on several occasions, including running up $125K in CC debt at one point (no that is not a typo) and losing his home. He gets by at this time ,with a sales job. He is in his late 40s, and doesn't have a dime to his name, or any long term relationships.  The half-sis is a disaster on SSDI, with a felony DUI fatality among her multiple DUI convictions, and a major prescription drug addiction. Mom died nearly a decade ago. Both parents died 20-25 years younger than expected, and the stress of the family situation was a major factor in their failed health and very early demise. I haven't had contact with the half-sister since the funeral.

Sorry, but this one is a bit light in the happy ending department.

[Cassie]

PH: that is really sad about your 2 siblings. We raised our kids about the same time and ignored the pop psychology stuff.  WE raised our kids the way we were raised.  I too went to college later at age 31 but did not ignore my kids in order to do it. I gave up things like going to events unless kid related, reading for fun, watching TV, etc. It was just kids and school and everything that revolved around that. It was fine because I got to my goal without sacrificing my family.

[wannabe-stache]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

Sorry that i missed all these posts (i did mention i am new around here).  A few reasons my numbers seem out of whack:

1. I am very conservative by nature.  i assume a 3% SWR, partially b/c my wife would kill me if the whole "FIRE" thing didn't end well.
2. I also assume we will spend around $90-100K per year which we really shouldn't, but we could (and used to).  In 2016 i probably spent $25K on training, coaching services and travel related to a fitness endeavor.  We probably spent $5K on expensive wines on a Napa trip.  Yes, we were really dumb.  I still budget $10K/year for travel alone.
3. We live in a HCOL area.
4. My first child was born one month ago.  I cannot convince my wife that we don't actually need hundreds of egyptian cotton swaddles...luckily most have been gifts.

My spreadsheet actually indicates we'll be FI in 3-4 years but we all know how many assumptions go into that (market returns, expenses, ability to continue to save $200K+ per year).  At a 4% SWR and cutting back expenses to normal levels i am fairly certain we could retire next year.

The good news is that we've got it under control. I traded in my BMW for a honda, let my landscaper go, cook all meals at home (i like to cook), canceled cable, etc.

Sometimes it feels weird to think about spending the weekends making freezer meals, hummus and homemade bread when i could be relaxing on the couch with my wife and baby, particularly when we have a high AGI at the moment.  Something about that doesn't feel right, almost feels selfish although i know that FIRE = more time with family during the "RE" part.

[MgoSam]

Roll forward five years, and the poor idiot does it again. His then-gf2 didn't run off with the money at least, but insisted on luxurious holidays several times a year that they could not afford (and didn't work). He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".

This pisses the #$$ out of me. Your brother needs to understand "that he is poor," not the father. I am far from poor but there's a TON of things I don't do because even though I can afford it I can't mentally justify it's expense. Luxury holidays is one of the things that I've put off for the time being, my vacations consist of visiting a cousin and hanging out in that area or when going on a work trip, extending my stay for a few extra days so I only need to pay for lodging, food, and other expenses.

If you're brother were poor and paying for these vacations out of his own pocket then fine, I wouldn't really care, but the fact that someone else is forking the bill is obscene.

[wannabe-stache]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

I'm not questioning the numbers. I'm questioning one of 2 things, or possibly both:

1. Such low risk tolerance that $3M is needed to FIRE.
2. Expenses are so high as to require $3M to FIRE.

It's the risk tolerance. I assume 3% SWR.  And while we don't need to spend $100K+, i guess i would like to be able to.  There are many places i have yet to see and someday i would like to.

[kayvent]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

Sorry that i missed all these posts (i did mention i am new around here).  A few reasons my numbers seem out of whack:

1. I am very conservative by nature.  i assume a 3% SWR, partially b/c my wife would kill me if the whole "FIRE" thing didn't end well.
2. I also assume we will spend around $90-100K per year which we really shouldn't, but we could (and used to).  In 2016 i probably spent $25K on training, coaching services and travel related to a fitness endeavor.  We probably spent $5K on expensive wines on a Napa trip.  Yes, we were really dumb.  I still budget $10K/year for travel alone.
3. We live in a HCOL area.
4. My first child was born one month ago.  I cannot convince my wife that we don't actually need hundreds of egyptian cotton swaddles...luckily most have been gifts.

My spreadsheet actually indicates we'll be FI in 3-4 years but we all know how many assumptions go into that (market returns, expenses, ability to continue to save $200K+ per year).  At a 4% SWR and cutting back expenses to normal levels i am fairly certain we could retire next year.

The good news is that we've got it under control. I traded in my BMW for a honda, let my landscaper go, cook all meals at home (i like to cook), canceled cable, etc.

Sometimes it feels weird to think about spending the weekends making freezer meals, hummus and homemade bread when i could be relaxing on the couch with my wife and baby, particularly when we have a high AGI at the moment.  Something about that doesn't feel right, almost feels selfish although i know that FIRE = more time with family during the "RE" part.

I give you credit for coming so far and I 100% can understand your wife's conservative and motherly tendencies. Those are assets.

With respect to that last part, I think you have it a bit wrong. A frugal lifestyle can mean more time now? I feel sorry for people who work overtime, never see their children, and they are so depressed over the last two that they get convenience food for their lunch. Never realizing the latter has a feedback loop with the priors.

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

Always put a value on your time and enjoyment. If buying two two-dollar whole grain loaves of bread a week costs you two extra dollars, saves you an hour, is about as healthy, and you don't find baking fun.......play with baby and baby.

[marielle]

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

What kind of bread are you making that has eggs? The most basic recipe only has water, bread flour, yeast, and salt. Also, a great substitute for eggs in baking is 3 tablespoons water mixed with 1 tablespoon flaxseed (let it sit for a couple minutes first). Cruelty free and healthy!

I'll admit I do have a bread machine, but to me it's worth its weight in gold. You can also use the dough setting on a food processor if you have a dough blade.

It costs me around 50 cents to make 6-8 burger buns at home with the bread machine versus $3 at the store (unless I buy the really shitty ones but no thanks). Maybe about 5-10 minutes of effort to measure ingredients and later pull the dough out of the machine to divide up into balls and bake. Even if the savings wasn't that much, it's still worth it for bread that is far superior than the basic stuff at the store. I'm sure I could find something equivalent at the bakery but it would be double the price then.

[wannabe-stache]

Sometimes it feels weird to think about spending the weekends making freezer meals, hummus and homemade bread when i could be relaxing on the couch with my wife and baby, particularly when we have a high AGI at the moment.  Something about that doesn't feel right, almost feels selfish although i know that FIRE = more time with family during the "RE" part.
[/quote]

I give you credit for coming so far and I 100% can understand your wife's conservative and motherly tendencies. Those are assets.

With respect to that last part, I think you have it a bit wrong. A frugal lifestyle can mean more time now? I feel sorry for people who work overtime, never see their children, and they are so depressed over the last two that they get convenience food for their lunch. Never realizing the latter has a feedback loop with the priors.

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

Always put a value on your time and enjoyment. If buying two two-dollar whole grain loaves of bread a week costs you two extra dollars, saves you an hour, is about as healthy, and you don't find baking fun.......play with baby and baby.
[/quote]

What I meant by the frugal lifestyle "taking time" was that it's faster and easier to eat out, or buy processed food, or pay a landscaper, rather than to do it yourself.  Luckily, a) i really enjoy cooking and b) i am the type to really commit, perhaps borderline obsessive at times.  So knowing that doing these things myself will save us $ and let us retire earlier, i don't want to give in and go back to excessive spending on restaurants or buying things one at a time from the corner grocery store.

Regarding my job, due to a tremendous amount of luck and a little hard work, i am blessed to work pretty easy hours and still earn enough to not really have to worry about $ for the time being.

Good point on the bread though - all things in moderation, even frugality. i won't be line drying my clothes or riding my bike to work, at least not in the South FL summer heat.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

You either pay for something with time or money. I think it's an individual choice which you prefer. You pay either way, however.

[AlanStache]

You either pay for something with time or money. I think it's an individual choice which you prefer. You pay either way, however.

Have you not been reading this thread?  All you have to do is send a text to your parents and they will Amazon you some food or pay the landlord - takes like 3 seconds.  :-)

[kayvent]

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

What kind of bread are you making that has eggs? The most basic recipe only has water, bread flour, yeast, and salt. Also, a great substitute for eggs in baking is 3 tablespoons water mixed with 1 tablespoon flaxseed (let it sit for a couple minutes first). Cruelty free and healthy!

I'll admit I do have a bread machine, but to me it's worth its weight in gold. You can also use the dough setting on a food processor if you have a dough blade.

It costs me around 50 cents to make 6-8 burger buns at home with the bread machine versus $3 at the store (unless I buy the really shitty ones but no thanks). Maybe about 5-10 minutes of effort to measure ingredients and later pull the dough out of the machine to divide up into balls and bake. Even if the savings wasn't that much, it's still worth it for bread that is far superior than the basic stuff at the store. I'm sure I could find something equivalent at the bakery but it would be double the price then.

Do you have a bread maker recommendation?

[Carless]

I recommend one with the more horizontal pan if possible.  Also, I've never NOT seen one on sale when I go to the thrift store.

[Playing with Fire UK]

You either pay for something with time or money. I think it's an individual choice which you prefer. You pay either way, however.

Have you not been reading this thread?  All you have to do is send a text to your parents and they will Amazon you some food or pay the landlord - takes like 3 seconds.  :-)

Thank you for an actually LOL, and for making me spray coffee on the keyboard.

[Playing with Fire UK]

You either pay for something with time or money. I think it's an individual choice which you prefer. You pay either way, however.

Have you not been reading this thread?  All you have to do is send a text to your parents and they will Amazon you some food or pay the landlord - takes like 3 seconds.  :-)

Thank you for an actually LOL, and for making me spray coffee on the keyboard.

But no worries on the keyboard, just texted Mummy and Daddy and they're shipping me a new one. You're right, no time at all, and free.

[chicklet42]

My mother asked me to run to the grocery store for her to pick up a few things (for which she would reimburse me). One of the things she needed me to pick up for her was dish soap. Because she is a woman in her mid-forties with absolutely nothing saved for retirement and no plans in that arena, I got her the cheapest dish soap in the store (she usually buys a fancy organic brand). I talked with her about it beforehand and she agreed it was a good idea. When I came home and unpacked the dish soap, my sister, who was visiting at the time, looked at me as if I had punched a kitten. She could not believe I bought cheap dish soap. She thought it was morally reprehensible for me to even suggest my mother try a cheaper and somewhat less environmentally healthy soap. She remained pissed off at me for quite some time, as if experimenting with affordable soap options was one of the worst things a human could do. My sister, I should mention, always buys the fancy organic brands, and is always incredibly broke!

[iris lily]

I didnt know organic dish soap existed. What dies that actually mean, I wonder. Dish soap without herbicides or i sectisides? I guess I use "organic" soaps then, too.haha

[AlanStache]

I didnt know organic dish soap existed. What dies that actually mean, I wonder. Dish soap without herbicides or i sectisides? I guess I use "organic" soaps then, too.haha

I think it means that 'Sodium Dodecylbenzene Sulfonate' was raised without antibiotics on pesticide free grain.
http://www.palmolive.com/ingredients

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

I didnt know organic dish soap existed. What dies that actually mean, I wonder. Dish soap without herbicides or i sectisides? I guess I use "organic" soaps then, too.haha

I think it means that 'Sodium Dodecylbenzene Sulfonate' was raised without antibiotics on pesticide free grain.
http://www.palmolive.com/ingredients

ahahhahahahhahhahah :)

[jinga nation]

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

What kind of bread are you making that has eggs? The most basic recipe only has water, bread flour, yeast, and salt. Also, a great substitute for eggs in baking is 3 tablespoons water mixed with 1 tablespoon flaxseed (let it sit for a couple minutes first). Cruelty free and healthy!

I'll admit I do have a bread machine, but to me it's worth its weight in gold. You can also use the dough setting on a food processor if you have a dough blade.

It costs me around 50 cents to make 6-8 burger buns at home with the bread machine versus $3 at the store (unless I buy the really shitty ones but no thanks). Maybe about 5-10 minutes of effort to measure ingredients and later pull the dough out of the machine to divide up into balls and bake. Even if the savings wasn't that much, it's still worth it for bread that is far superior than the basic stuff at the store. I'm sure I could find something equivalent at the bakery but it would be double the price then.

Do you have a bread maker recommendation?

I use the Hamilton Beach Programmable Bread Machine, 2-Pound Bread Maker with Gluten-Free Setting (29882)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005EPRF1I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We've used it for over 2 years now. The loaves are tall. Never had a bad bread. The smell of fresh bread is amazing. Just found out that I can make fresh jam with it. Have to try that next. My wife also uses it to make pizza dough.

[marielle]

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

What kind of bread are you making that has eggs? The most basic recipe only has water, bread flour, yeast, and salt. Also, a great substitute for eggs in baking is 3 tablespoons water mixed with 1 tablespoon flaxseed (let it sit for a couple minutes first). Cruelty free and healthy!

I'll admit I do have a bread machine, but to me it's worth its weight in gold. You can also use the dough setting on a food processor if you have a dough blade.

It costs me around 50 cents to make 6-8 burger buns at home with the bread machine versus $3 at the store (unless I buy the really shitty ones but no thanks). Maybe about 5-10 minutes of effort to measure ingredients and later pull the dough out of the machine to divide up into balls and bake. Even if the savings wasn't that much, it's still worth it for bread that is far superior than the basic stuff at the store. I'm sure I could find something equivalent at the bakery but it would be double the price then.

Do you have a bread maker recommendation?

I use the Hamilton Beach Programmable Bread Machine, 2-Pound Bread Maker with Gluten-Free Setting (29882)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005EPRF1I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We've used it for over 2 years now. The loaves are tall. Never had a bad bread. The smell of fresh bread is amazing. Just found out that I can make fresh jam with it. Have to try that next. My wife also uses it to make pizza dough.

I have this one for I believe about 2 years as well:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004VCZEOU/

Looks like the refurbished model isn't a bad deal. The only thing that is a bit annoying is the loud beeping that you can't turn off, but looks like someone in the reviews has a solution to just desolder that bit!

I would definitely suggest using only bread flour and maybe even some wheat gluten added in as well. I ignored all the recipes that the machine came with. All of them call for milk or butter which is ridiculous for almost all bread recipes...

Also, be careful with washing the bowl and blade. Mine is still fine, but is starting to show some signs of wear of the non-stick coating. Use only the soft side of the sponge and soak the bowl first if you have to.

[marielle]

Maybe I should get this back on topic...I'm pretty excited about reaching positive networth finally but I feel like I can't even celebrate it! I'm going to my bf's parent's new beach house this weekend and I don't know if it's even worth mentioning. But I'm almost tempted to say something to see what nasty comments I get (we have received comments that we live like "porpers" among other things which I've mentioned on this thread before). Who knows, maybe they'll actually have nice things to say for once?

Probably shouldn't mention it around my bf's sister though because she is several years older and very much so in debt because of student loans from her master's degree (undergrad was fully paid for by the parents) and a brand new SUV...

I'm at least going to wash my car today, they can judge all they want for driving my 14 year old "beater" but at least it will look nice. To be fair, it actually doesn't look like it's old when cleaned up because of a newer paint job.

[MrMoogle]

Maybe I should get this back on topic...I'm pretty excited about reaching positive networth finally but I feel like I can't even celebrate it! I'm going to my bf's parent's new beach house this weekend and I don't know if it's even worth mentioning. But I'm almost tempted to say something to see what nasty comments I get (we have received comments that we live like "porpers" among other things which I've mentioned on this thread before). Who knows, maybe they'll actually have nice things to say for once?

Probably shouldn't mention it around my bf's sister though because she is several years older and very much so in debt because of student loans from her master's degree (undergrad was fully paid for by the parents) and a brand new SUV...

I'm at least going to wash my car today, they can judge all they want for driving my 14 year old "beater" but at least it will look nice. To be fair, it actually doesn't look like it's old when cleaned up because of a newer paint job.

Congrats! A lot of people on here didn't get a positive net worth until much later than 24.

[Playing with Fire UK]

Maybe I should get this back on topic...I'm pretty excited about reaching positive networth finally but I feel like I can't even celebrate it! I'm going to my bf's parent's new beach house this weekend and I don't know if it's even worth mentioning. But I'm almost tempted to say something to see what nasty comments I get (we have received comments that we live like "porpers" among other things which I've mentioned on this thread before). Who knows, maybe they'll actually have nice things to say for once?

Probably shouldn't mention it around my bf's sister though because she is several years older and very much so in debt because of student loans from her master's degree (undergrad was fully paid for by the parents) and a brand new SUV...

I'm at least going to wash my car today, they can judge all they want for driving my 14 year old "beater" but at least it will look nice. To be fair, it actually doesn't look like it's old when cleaned up because of a newer paint job.

Well done!! Whatever they say, know that we are all cheering you on.

[With This Herring]

Congrats, Marielle!  I would suggest you not mention it.  Also, "porpers" sounds like a terrible spelling for "dolphin," haha.  (And my, you are ambitious!  I have never washed my car.)

[kayvent]

I had the same type of thoughts last December when I became a worthless individual too. In the end I told three people. A very affluent friend, a very close friend, and another.

[marielle]

I had the same type of thoughts last December when I became a worthless individual too. In the end I told three people. A very affluent friend, a very close friend, and another.

Hey, I'm not worthless, I'm worth a whole $150! :)

I'm still on the fence if I should say anything. I guess if it's relevant to the conversation maybe.

[Imma]

Not my parents, but my friend's parents: they wanted a new 'statement' dining room table for their dining room. As far as I know, they are financially comfortable, house probably paid off, steady job for the government with lots of paid leave, but I also know they would like to retire today (mid 50's) but will probably need to work until mid 60's to retire with the income they'd like to have. They go and spend 3000 on a custom made dining room table, only to find out at the first family gathering it's not actually big enough for the parents and their children, let alone their daughters in law. Table is now in the attic and they went on to buy another, bigger custom made dining room table. They tell this to people in a way that makes it sound like it's a normal thing. I think I know why they have to work another 10 years.

[Rowellen]

I had the same type of thoughts last December when I became a worthless individual too. In the end I told three people. A very affluent friend, a very close friend, and another.

Hey, I'm not worthless, I'm worth a whole $150! :)

I'm still on the fence if I should say anything. I guess if it's relevant to the conversation maybe.

I wouldn't tell. You'd probably start getting hit up for "loans".

[stashja]

Venting to strangers so I can keep my cool here... conflicted...

Cost of car parents just bought for 33-year-old semi-employed perpetual student brother: $18K
Last time parents bought him a car (used, 1990s): 2015
Yes, it's new. They insist buying this make of car used would be "a bad deal."
Who is paying at least part of brother's rent right now: parents
Brothers phone: parents' family plan
Brothers clothes: mom's retail therapy covers this

Who was U.S. president when my DH's enviably well-running vehicle was made: Reagan.
time brother has held full time non student job: 10 months and change
Outcome: let go for not understanding employer's rules / "independent thinking"

My mortgage balance: $38k
Years left on my 15 year mortgage: 11
Years left till payoff if I don't overpay (but I do): 5 and change
My emergency fund: $32K

My weakness... parents say they feel bad for having to fund him and not me, so they often offer to buy my groceries. Sometimes I accept, buy nice stuff (local glass bottle milk, not anything dumb like kale chips) from a local, family owned shop, and put the leftover grocery budget money in savings. Is this okay? Or do I need to cut the strings so I don't end up like brother? I am aware he is in his mess because he has never had to be self reliant.

ps: I will never personally bailout this brother, no matter what.

[zolotiyeruki]

My weakness... parents say they feel bad for having to fund him and not me, so they often offer to buy my groceries. Sometimes I accept, buy nice stuff from a local, family owned shop, and put the leftover grocery budget money in savings. Is this okay? Or do I need to cut the strings so I don't end up like brother? I am aware he is in his mess because he has never had to be self reliant.

ps: I will never personally bailout this brother, no matter what.

Personally, I'd express gratitude for my parents' offer, but say, "...but we're able to take care of ourselves, so please don't burden yourselves further."  Or, half-jokingly, say "nah, we're in good shape.  Just take it out of his share of the inheritance :P"

[AlanStache]

...
My weakness... parents say they feel bad for having to fund him and not me, so they often offer to buy my groceries. Sometimes I accept, buy nice stuff from a local, family owned shop, and put the leftover grocery budget money in savings. Is this okay? Or do I need to cut the strings so I don't end up like brother? I am aware he is in his mess because he has never had to be self reliant.

Depends on your parents situation.  If they are in basically good financial situation go for it.  If a bag of kale chips helps everyone's relations ships-enjoy.  They dont want to think things are 100% one sided with your brother even if it is 98% monetarily one sided towards him.  Free food might even help you in your head; when then give you some vegan-beef-jerky you can smile knowing you dont need it and its just a little bonus.  If you come to expect or ask for the free-range Asparagus Water then go back and reevaluate your self reliance. 

[With This Herring]

My weakness... parents say they feel bad for having to fund him and not me, so they often offer to buy my groceries. Sometimes I accept, buy nice stuff from a local, family owned shop, and put the leftover grocery budget money in savings. Is this okay? Or do I need to cut the strings so I don't end up like brother? I am aware he is in his mess because he has never had to be self reliant.

ps: I will never personally bailout this brother, no matter what.

They can very well afford $50 of groceries every few months.  I don't expect or ask. When I tried to return the money to them once, they were offended. Also, if we don't graciously accept this, they send us bizarre presents... atrocious "career woman dresses" for me and a glass telescope from some religious pilgrimage site for my better half.

It would be better if they didn't blow that money on unwanted stuff for you.  How are your parents' finances?  If your parents are not financially set enough to be able to support your deadbeat brother and have a good retirement, you may have to bail them out later.  To that end, you might consider graciously accepting all that "grocery money" and socking it away in a separate account to pay back to them as needed.

[stashja]

What I am doing is socking away everything. They will be okay for their own retirement. They have good jobs, savings, investments. Of course, if they needed my help, I would help them. I have no kids, so I am practically able to help.

[max9505672]

My co-tenant in working on Hydro sites, away from home most of the time with crazy per diems (not taxable) and makes a lot of overtime, so he has a pretty high revenue. He has pretty much zero responsabilities (no wife, no kids, no house to mentain, etc.) and is pretty young. The perfect time to build a 'stach, in my opinion.

Not so long ago, he told me he had more than 35K$ in his checking account. I tried to explain him that this was kind of dumb, that over time it loses value with inflation and that he could put it somewhere accessible and at least get some low, but better than nothing, interests or even invest part of it.

Instead, couple months after, he bought a used (at least) 2013 BMW 328 Xi for 22000$+ 15% taxes (CAN$) for a total of 25K$. And he paid CASH, even if I explained him he could get a low interest loan and invest his capital with higher expected return. And now he brags that his new tires (yes the tires were shot at that price) and installation + oil change ONLY cost him 1100$. The 1.5K$ yearly insurance fees are also ''not so bad'' according to him. On top of that, he traded his perfectly good 2007 Mazda 3 with around 150K kms (around 93K miles), for 500$. Yes, 500$. It's worth at least 2000$ here, but he didn't want to deal with having to sell it by himself. And I know he's not buying it because he particularly enjoys cars. He bought it for the status and to tell people he drives a BMW.

He also bought a brand new 3.5K$ downhill bike as a first mountain bike and probably rode it only 3 times in the last 9 months.

A brand new camera with top of the line technology (I know nothing about cameras) for a couple grand I think.

And everytime his one week off work is done, and he's got to drive back 8 hours to go work in the middle of nowhere for 4 consecutive weeks on night shifts, he seems a little depressed... What's sad is I think he's buying all this stuff the get some comfort from his lifestyle. Once he buys something, and it's usually something big (from my point of view at least), almost immediately after he starts talking about he's next purchase. Now he's thinking about buying a new laptop, because the one provided by the company apparently isn't enough. Pretty sure he's going to buy something with top specs, but will pretty much only use it to browse videos on the web. After that, I guess it's going to be an overpriced condo in an overvalued area of a HCOL city...

It kind of drives me crazy because this guy is an engineer, but it seems like he can't do simple maths. He seems confortable with his 2% RRSP + 4% company match and no more, even if he's probably paying close to 50% of taxes on a big part of his salary and many government benefits could bring back a lot of money in his pocket. At that rate of spending and saving, he's going to be working and dependant on his job for a looong time. At least if it was a YOLO philosophy thing or something like that, I could understand. But I really think it's a lack a knowledge and interest mixed by the dopamine high of the next big thing.

Still it could be worse. I mean, he's still young and he has zero debt, so he's in a OK situation if he what's to make a change. Maybe I should be more insistent and try harder to make him see the impact of his choices. I have a hard time telling people what they should do though..

[JordanOfGilead]

Maybe I should get this back on topic...I'm pretty excited about reaching positive networth finally but I feel like I can't even celebrate it! I'm going to my bf's parent's new beach house this weekend and I don't know if it's even worth mentioning. But I'm almost tempted to say something to see what nasty comments I get (we have received comments that we live like "porpers" among other things which I've mentioned on this thread before). Who knows, maybe they'll actually have nice things to say for once?

Probably shouldn't mention it around my bf's sister though because she is several years older and very much so in debt because of student loans from her master's degree (undergrad was fully paid for by the parents) and a brand new SUV...

I'm at least going to wash my car today, they can judge all they want for driving my 14 year old "beater" but at least it will look nice. To be fair, it actually doesn't look like it's old when cleaned up because of a newer paint job.

She's in debt from a masters degree? Holy cow!
One of the best pieces of advice I have ever received is "If you have to pay for a grad degree your (i.e. no scholarships from school or employer compensation), then it's not going to help your career any."
Of course, that generally applies to non-medical STEM degrees. I'm not sure how other fields normally work with grad school.

[mtn]

She's in debt from a masters degree? Holy cow!
One of the best pieces of advice I have ever received is "If you have to pay for a grad degree your (i.e. no scholarships from school or employer compensation), then it's not going to help your career any."
Of course, that generally applies to non-medical STEM degrees. I'm not sure how other fields normally work with grad school.

For a point of reference, my wife *had* to get her masters before entering her career. She's a dietitian, and to become a fully certified RD you must go through a Dietetic internship in which you apply to about 3-15 programs of your choice, rank them, and then are matched--much like a med student being matched to a residency. You don't have a whole lot of choice. The one my wife was matched to also included a masters degree--so she had the choice: throw away 4 years of undergrad that are relatively worthless without the RD, or get the RD and her masters in the process.

It turned out to be incredibly beneficial to her career too.

[mtn]

Just got back from an interesting vacation with the in-laws. My FIL and MIL are generally OK--they're anti-mustachian, but FIL is pretty frugal (MIL has a debilitating illness that forces her hand to anti-mustachian quite a bit). But my brother-in-law. Holy cow.

Orders the most expensive thing on the menu at every restaurant (MIL/FIL are paying). Keeps saying things like "the problem with this boat is this, dad should have gotten the bigger one", or "We should have put a second story on this house. It is pointless now" (4 bedroom). Orders mixed drinks with top shelf liquor (at least this guy drinks bud light when he drinks beer).

Its like he thinks money grows on trees. Oh, and the best part? He's unemployed, over 30, lives with his parents, and does nothing to help. I think he does make a "living" gambling (i've seen him at OTB--he seldom loses, but I know I'm not seeing all of it), but what a spoiled, rude, asshole brat of a man-child.

[marielle]

Maybe I should get this back on topic...I'm pretty excited about reaching positive networth finally but I feel like I can't even celebrate it! I'm going to my bf's parent's new beach house this weekend and I don't know if it's even worth mentioning. But I'm almost tempted to say something to see what nasty comments I get (we have received comments that we live like "porpers" among other things which I've mentioned on this thread before). Who knows, maybe they'll actually have nice things to say for once?

Probably shouldn't mention it around my bf's sister though because she is several years older and very much so in debt because of student loans from her master's degree (undergrad was fully paid for by the parents) and a brand new SUV...

I'm at least going to wash my car today, they can judge all they want for driving my 14 year old "beater" but at least it will look nice. To be fair, it actually doesn't look like it's old when cleaned up because of a newer paint job.

She's in debt from a masters degree? Holy cow!
One of the best pieces of advice I have ever received is "If you have to pay for a grad degree your (i.e. no scholarships from school or employer compensation), then it's not going to help your career any."
Of course, that generally applies to non-medical STEM degrees. I'm not sure how other fields normally work with grad school.

She has a chemistry and a teaching degree and was a highschool teacher for a few years but ended up hating it so she got her MBA. She definitely makes more money now, but I don't think it's more than an engineer with only an undergrad degree. I don't know how much the student loans amount to, but the car is $25k+.