Relatives who just don't get it

[RWD]

Was his name Frank Abagnale Jr?

Great movie!

You know that's a real person, right?

[merula]

So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.

Does no one in your family send holiday cards? Wedding invites? Anything via USPS? That's how it's been obvious when my idiot cousins have been living at home. "Hey Aunt, can you please send me Cousin's address?" "Oh, he's...taking his mail at home."

I've been polite-- almost reclusive, in fact-- ever since I verbally shoved some fuel rods in a place they shouldn't go, as part of an ongoing quest to correct a deer tick infestation on the hide of one of our other venerable forum members, and subsequently got corrected by a moderator for openly maligning the chastity of Wells Fargo.

TGS, if you ever type something out and decide not to post it because of what mods might do, PM it to me instead. I think you're hilarious, especially when you're breaking Forum Rule #1.

[Vindicated]

Was his name Frank Abagnale Jr?

Great movie!

You know that's a real person, right?

Yep.  Just commenting on the quality of the film.

While it's impressive what the real Frank pulled off, the fictional representation of him is much easier to root for. 

[CheapScholar]

Ha, some good advice and funny remarks.  Thanks, guys.  My inlaws only keep Bill's living arrangement hush hush from the paternal side of their family.  I'm sure Bill would like the maternal side to be fed the lie as well, but the aunts and cousins are at the house on a weekly bass so that's not an option.  As for the paternal side that IS fed the lie, I virtually never see them.  The family isn't that close to the paternal side and my wife and I live 2 hours away.  I maybe see the side being lied to once every year or two.  And, to be clear, I've never lied for Bill.  Rest assured that if I had an even remote chance to expose him I would.  Couple other things:

I found out from Jane directly that Bill lies to his coworkers about his living arrangement.  She was at an office Christmas party at Bill's work a couple years ago and mentioned to someone she and Bill left the apt.  Bill got super pissed at Jane.  Jane wasn't aware of the lie he was living.  This just led to more fighting and excessive spending by both of them.

My inlaws don't put any pressure on Bill to leave.  MIL freaking loves having Bill around!  FIL is one of those cynical people who doesn't trust anyone or anything.  If Bill were to rent an apt my FIL would see it as a landlord getting rich at Bill's expense.  If Bill got a mortgage, FIL would see the bank as the bad guy.  Although, FIL has done things to suggest Bill should leave at times.  Three years ago for Xmas, FIL gave each Bill and my wife $10,000.  My inlaws aren't especially rich, so it was very generous.  The reason for the $10,000 was to help Bill with his down payment on his home.  Again, that was 3 years ago.  Bill told my wife recently that he currently has 50K for a down payment.  10K came from the Xmas gift, and another 15K was other investments my FIL designated for Bill (my wife received the same).  Which means that over 5 years, Bill has saved about 25K.  I suspect Jane has saved zero dollars.  I suspect this because my wife recently asked Bill what Jane has saved, and Bill said Jane refuses to talk about what she has saved or show any financial info to Bill.  I think they should have saved 120K EASILY, but what do I know.

Finally, things will get really interesting once Bill and Jane actually DO buy a home.  Neither of them can budget to save their lives.  Especially considering they have high standards and will probably buy a McMansion which can include property taxes of $1,000+ per month in their area.

[CheapScholar]

Oh, me replying again regarding the holiday cards!  Glad someone asked!  So, one of the cousins on the paternal side had a baby shower about a month ago.  Bill did not attend, but he sent a gift with MIL (I'd wager my left nut that MIL picked the gift and paid for it).

Anyway, a week after the shower, the cousin texts my wife and asks for Bill's address so she can send a thank you card.  My wife had no idea what to text back.  So, my wife texts Bill and asks what to say.  Basically no response from Bill for 2 whole days.  That's what Bill does.  He just ignores people if he feels embarrassed. 

So, my wife covers for Bill and texts the cousin that "Bill is traveling for work and I can't reach him, just send his TY note to my parents house."

My wife then texts Bill saying what she did, and he immediately responded "Thanks."

Enablers!

[Just Joe]

Doesn't sound like BILL saved any money. Sounds like FiL did the saving. ;)

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

[Mezzie]

Yikes. I think everyone in my family has taken advantage of subsidized family living arrangements at some point, but there was always both an end in sight and a benefit for both parties. For example:

-Cousin gets divorced and needs to get back on her feet. Lives with great-grandma who is starting not to be able to be alone. Both win; no one is taken advantage of.
-I want to save up so I don't go in debt for my masters. Grandpa wants to rent out a room since he's lonely in his house since grandma died. Both win!
-Sister has run up more student debt than she can handle. Rents at my parents' place while she pays things off and does some home renovations for them.
-Brother ends up in a bad living situation. Moves in with husband and me. He pays cheap rent; we benefit from cheap rent and an unlimited supply of board games.
-Another cousin out of work moves into another great-grandma's house and provides end of life care that the entire family appreciates.

I could go on and on. In none of these cases were any of us ashamed or secretive about what we did. Lying and wanting others to lie for you is a good sign what you're doing is wrong.

[onehair]

An update on my awful aunt and uncle: As you all know my mom has officially cut economic support to my aunt and uncle.  Now they've taken to calling her from odd numbers and Skypeing which she refuses to answer.  According to her they may have sent someone to the house to intimidate her into helping them financially again. So now they're using a sister of my deceased grandfather(known as GrandAunt D*** to us) to call her continually under the pretext of asking about her health and my nephew of course along the course of the conversation it turns to her helping my aunt and uncle out.  Now my mom is refusing to take the grandaunt's calls as well. 

[JordanOfGilead]

Recently found out my mom is signed up for a clothing "rental" service. Apparently she pays "like $40 or $50 a month" (she doesn't even know exactly how much?) and they send her outfits. She keeps them until she is done with them, then sends them back. Kind of how Netflix used to work before streaming.
Her: "It's great! there's all kinds of cute outfits that I never would have picked out for myself at the store"
Me: "but you're paying $50 a month for something you don't even get to keep ... "

I don't get it. She also wants to get a new Ram 1500 to replace her PERFECTLY FINE 08 fusion because my sister is almost 16 and she "needs" a car. Right. Is that why I didn't get my license until after I graduated from high school and even then had to pay for driver's ed, the car, and the insurance on my own? Sure ...

[BlueHouse]

One of the key purposes behind Mustachianism is to earn "fuck you" money so as to never, ever again be troubled by idiots. Financial independence is a process of idiot-proofing one's life to the point where decisions made by imbeciles, dolts, assholes, and shitheads no longer affect you one way or another. You can't be pressured to morally compromise yourself for, say, an employer or a paycheck because you don't need the paychecks so badly that you give a fuck whether you get the next one. In fact it's safe to say that financial independence provides us with the freedom to raise a single finger, in a single direction, any time we're pressured to do something we don't actually want to do, and to invite the recipient of the gesture to paraphrase because we don't really think they're "Number One".

Cutting this out, laminating it, and putting it in my wallet. 


If anyone knows how to set up a google alert so that I'm notified anytime TGS posts a humdinger like this one, please advise.  These are too good to miss!

[Shinplaster]

TGS, if you ever type something out and decide not to post it because of what mods might do, PM it to me instead. I think you're hilarious, especially when you're breaking Forum Rule #1.

You could have a subscription going for things you'd like to say, but would break the rules.  I'd sign up for that too.   

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Lying and wanting others to lie for you is a good sign what you're doing is wrong.

That's what makes the situation toxic. Pressuring other people to drink and distribute the bathwater by spreading the lies even though they know they're lies makes the group poisonous even if the "secret" they're being asked to cover up is totally innocuous. It messes with three people.

First, it gives a lower-contributing member of the group the benefit of contributing fully without the associated social responsibilities. If this continues long enough the low contributor will become genuinely unable to objectively assess the value of his or her contribution. He or she will also not experience the reasonably predictable negative outcome of the behavior which would otherwise serve as enough discomfort to correct his or her approach. Like a member of royalty supported by the labor of serfs or servants, the lower contributor will get used to having his or her needs met by others without regard to what he or she actually contributes. This is a significant predictor of subsequent practice of an addiction. Anyone who doesn't believe me needs only to substitute "using heroin" for "overspending" and the behavior pattern will pop right out.

Second, the person being manipulated into lying and enabling by covering up the lower contributor's work is forced to cede some of his or her autonomy but receives no benefit in exchange. Nor does he or she experience the reward that ordinarily comes from working hard and doing well, since the freeloader receives the same benefit as the hard worker. Resentment is inevitable. Furthermore, by kowtowing and going along with the plan to pretend Bill (or someone like him) is adulting well, the functional but unwilling enabler sets himself or herself up to be infantilized in the same way. When you've got one "kid" who receives mail at a parent's home and who is basically infantilized by that parent, pretty soon all the adult offspring will be infantilized as well and will have to fight with the extended family for basic courtesies such as being called or written to directly for social invitations instead of being treated as a minor child living in a parent's household. No free adult likes to be infantilized like that, and the idea of losing at least some social status is going to rankle.

Finally, going along with cover-up lying basically gives the enforcer who requests it the idea that he or she has the "right" to order another person to drink and distribute bathwater. Expect further delegation of enabling duties in the future, and the longer it goes on the greater the precedent will be. You're basically creating a family enforcer.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

An update on my awful aunt and uncle: As you all know my mom has officially cut economic support to my aunt and uncle.  Now they've taken to calling her from odd numbers and Skypeing which she refuses to answer.  According to her they may have sent someone to the house to intimidate her into helping them financially again. So now they're using an aunt of my deceased grandfather to call her continually under the pretext of asking about her health and my nephew of course along the course of the conversation it turns to her helping my aunt and uncle out.  Now my mom is refusing to take the aunt's calls as well.

This is a classic case of what happens when a crab makes a leap for the rim of the bucket.

Your mom is not alone. She's experiencing a very common group reaction. When she pried the aunt and uncle off the financial nipple, they retaliated through the rest of the family. It's basically an attempt to bully her back in line. A lot of the time the "victim" (in this case the formerly subsidized relatives) don't even need to ask the rest of the extended family for help; people take it upon themselves to dish out punishment.

The correct move, for your mother, is not to refuse to take the second velociraptor's phone calls. Cutting that person off weakens your mom's position and her social contact with the grandfather's aunt. It also makes your mom look like the unreasonable one and may cause other family members to pile on. If your mother reacts that way, they'll know they're getting to her.

The best move is for your mom to refuse to discuss the financial "help" for your aunt and uncle, but to cheerfully engage in conversation otherwise. This shows the old biddy exactly where the bear went in the woods, reinforces your mom's relationship with her, and gets the pressure off without your mom being set up to be the family "bad guy" for asserting some pretty normal boundaries.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.

Well, bless you, since you are far more tactful than I could ever be. I would respond to questions about Bill with, " Oh, Bill................well, Bill is still suffering from that awkward "failure to launch" issue, and is well on his way to his forth decade of breast feeding".  Yea, there is no way in hell I would cover for that sorry ass. If he can't put his big boy pants on, and grow the fuck up, the fact that he lives in Mommy's basement is fair game, and the horrified look on the relative's faces as you break the news, well that's just peanut butter icing on that particular cake.

...Don't deliberately participate in stupid family behavior...

I guess if you were  mad at them you could tell your relatives about their failure to launch.  But other than laughing at BIL when he asks you not to leak the news to other relatives, I'm not sure what I'd do personally.  Because I wouldn't actively keep the "secret" but I also don't routinely go around and talk about where my brother or BIL or whatever is living.  I just don't feel the need.  Is his story even important enough to be a topic of casual conversation?   

Although I could easily see the "secret" being leaked if a relative, say, gave me something (like a borrowed book or tool) to return to my parents(in law) and I just say "Just give it to BIL -- he lives with them".

Exactly. We should never go out of our way to spill the beans, and malicious gossip is always inappropriate. But if it comes up in normal conversation, we shouldn't go out of our way to cover it up either, and we definitely shouldn't lie or embroider the truth. Claiming to "not know" is an example of doing that.

[iris lily]

My current employer actually requires people to bring in their degrees and have them copied and put into our employee files.  It's the only instance I've ever heard of an employer checking.

When I served on my university's academic discipline board, we had a case in which a former student was found guilty of forging diplomas and selling them to people who hadn't attended university and had employers like yours.

Wow, I can't believe the b*lls that'd take.  Not the forging, that's not too unbelievable, but to apply to a job as if you had the education for it... Possibly living your whole career as a fraud.  You could gain all the knowledge you needed on the job, because who uses stuff they learned in college at work?  I do VERY minimally.

Was his name Frank Abagnale Jr?

Great movie!

The movie sucked.

The book, now thats the thing!

[Gondolin]

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

And yet, they've gone over 6 years! Hopelessly co-dependent enabler couples like this never seem to break up unless one of them has a life changing epiphany and, given the familial enabling we've been told about, that isn't particularly likely.

In other news, ughhhhhh, reading about these people makes me feel sick.

[MgoSam]

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

And yet, they've gone over 6 years! Hopelessly co-dependent enabler couples like this never seem to break up unless one of them has a life changing epiphany and, given the familial enabling we've been told about, that isn't particularly likely.

In other news, ughhhhhh, reading about these people makes me feel sick.

Not to mention that Jane having run a marathon demonstrates that she, at least, has the capability to pursue a long-term goal.

[CheapScholar]

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

And yet, they've gone over 6 years! Hopelessly co-dependent enabler couples like this never seem to break up unless one of them has a life changing epiphany and, given the familial enabling we've been told about, that isn't particularly likely.

In other news, ughhhhhh, reading about these people makes me feel sick.

Actually, they've been together over a decade now - started dating in college.  They will never permanently break up, although they have probably broken up 500 times for periods ranging from 1 day to 2 months.  Bill has dumped her prior to family weddings because (1) he doesn't want Jane to get angry at him when OTHER people get married and (2) he doesn't want to tell Jane he's telling the family lies about their living situation. It's all just lies lies lies.  Last summer Bill went to one of his best friend's engagement parties (couples party, not bachelor party).  Bill cancelled on Jane last minute for an expensive concert they had planned that night.  So Jane FB posts that she has an extra ticket to the concert because Bill had food poisoning.  My wife and I just have to laugh.

[MgoSam]

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

And yet, they've gone over 6 years! Hopelessly co-dependent enabler couples like this never seem to break up unless one of them has a life changing epiphany and, given the familial enabling we've been told about, that isn't particularly likely.

In other news, ughhhhhh, reading about these people makes me feel sick.

Actually, they've been together over a decade now - started dating in college.  They will never permanently break up, although they have probably broken up 500 times for periods ranging from 1 day to 2 months.  Bill has dumped her prior to family weddings because (1) he doesn't want Jane to get angry at him when OTHER people get married and (2) he doesn't want to tell Jane he's telling the family lies about their living situation. It's all just lies lies lies.  Last summer Bill went to one of his best friend's engagement parties (couples party, not bachelor party).  Bill cancelled on Jane last minute for an expensive concert they had planned that night.  So Jane FB posts that she has an extra ticket to the concert because Bill had food poisoning.  My wife and I just have to laugh.

As pathetic as the situation is, it sounds like they are perfect for each other.

[Gondolin]

Bill has dumped her prior to family weddings because (1) he doesn't want Jane to get angry at him when OTHER people get married and (2) he doesn't want to tell Jane he's telling the family lies about their living situation. It's all just lies lies lies.  Last summer Bill went to one of his best friend's engagement parties (couples party, not bachelor party).  Bill cancelled on Jane last minute for an expensive concert they had planned that night.  So Jane FB posts that she has an extra ticket to the concert because Bill had food poisoning.

I literally can't comprehend how low someone's self esteem would have to be to think this is a 'normal and good' relationship.

[Just Joe]

Let's hope they never procreate! I can't imagine what sort of parenting skills they would have. You seriously ought to suggest they both get snipped/tied/fixed/altered. I genuinely would feel sorry for any child who had to put up with them for 20+ years. 

[CheapScholar]

Let's hope they never procreate! I can't imagine what sort of parenting skills they would have. You seriously ought to suggest they both get snipped/tied/fixed/altered. I genuinely would feel sorry for any child who had to put up with them for 20+ years.

True.  I feel bad for their dog.  They bought the designer dog for a few grand when they were in the apt.  That was nearly 5 years ago.  Now, Jane's parents are stuck taking care of the dog when Jane goes on her many vacations and weekend getaways in the city.  I joke with my wife that the dog will die of old age before Bill and Jane have the down payment for a house.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Let's hope they never procreate! I can't imagine what sort of parenting skills they would have. You seriously ought to suggest they both get snipped/tied/fixed/altered. I genuinely would feel sorry for any child who had to put up with them for 20+ years.

True.  I feel bad for their dog.  They bought the designer dog for a few grand when they were in the apt.  That was nearly 5 years ago.  Now, Jane's parents are stuck taking care of the dog when Jane goes on her many vacations and weekend getaways in the city.  I joke with my wife that the dog will die of old age before Bill and Jane have the down payment for a house.

They should just tell Jane that they're stealing the dog, and that this little designer doggie is now theirs. I did this myself to very good effect.

My daughter wouldn't take care of her puppy after the novelty wore off the first week and she wasn't getting as much attention for her anymore. Basically she treated her puppy the same way her bio-dad treated her: always around for photo ops, but not for the feedings, the teaching, or the providing of anything the doggie needed. She had plenty of money for clothing and manicures for herself, but nothing for her little pup even at Christmas, which she elected to spend elsewhere. She never provided so much as a bite of puppy kibble for her to eat or a single puppy pad for her potty training, and forget toys or vet care. Then when she decided she'd had it with me insisting on her going to school and doing homework, she walked out on her little dog just like her bio-mom walked out on her, and wasn't seen for days.

It's good she paid it forward to an animal and not to a human baby. She moved back in a week later acting like nothing had happened but can you imagine what would have happened if she'd done it to a child? That's how family dysfunction continues. People on the receiving end of an early injustice often just can't rest until they've visited a similar horror on somebody else. It's one of those weird things about human nature I'll probably never understand.

The little doggie had no clue about the big picture or what was going on. But she immediately recognized who was feeding her, teaching her to potty, and playing gently with her. I knew my daughter wasn't going to step up, so I was looking for other homes for the little dog. I told the puppy this after I got off the computer from hitting up the puppy's original family, where the dog's mom and her brother still lived and where the people who gave the pup to my daughter insisted that the dog be returned to them if it didn't work out. Those folks didn't respond, and in the meantime the pup did something weird.

Instead of just looking up at me, the puppy snuggled up and stuck her nose in my ear, and there was just this emotional wave gushing out of that little animal. It's as though she was saying: "I want to be your little doggie. Don't send me away. Make me your pup instead." She basically gave herself to me.

From that point, the venomous little spaz beast grew on me, and I found myself adoring her more every day even as my daughter continued to reject her. So I now have a Chihuahua who is living a very happy and comfortable life. We're very close and go on walks several times a day. I've taught her how to potty properly, to fetch, to walk on a leash, and to dance the hula. But days can go by without my daughter even setting eyes on "her" pup. That little dog is now mine and I couldn't be happier. Although she does tend to piss and shit on my daughter's clothing when she leaves it lying around. The little bitchlet-- and I mean the Chihuahua-- regards my daughter as her subordinate and is making a dominance play. While my daughter is stuck doing homework, I snuggle with this: (see attached image). The dog has grown up a bit since I took the picture but you get the idea.

Seriously. Steal the dog.

[Vindicated]

My parents have no retirement savings, although my Dad expects a reasonable pension in a few years.  He figures that with the pension and SS, they'll be alright on paying bills.  That's fine.

Then he calls me yesterday and asks me to drop by after work to see the car he's thinking about buying, because he's afraid his work truck is going to bite the dust sometime soon.  It's a used Cadillac.

Me: "Are you planning to drive this to work?? (Construction/Concrete)"
Dad: "No, I'll drive your Mom's Hyundai (Elantra)"
Me: "So, the Cadillac is for?"
Dad: "If your Mom needs to go somewhere (She doesn't work)"
Me: "How are you going to afford this?"
Dad: "We'll refinance the Hyundai along with this loan, and our payments will only go up $250/mo (Total $450/mo)"
Me: "So, you're going to raise your payments $250/mo, and your debt to $25k, for a car you don't need?"
Dad: "Your Mom's always wanted a Cadillac"
Me: "Then she should get a job to pay for the Cadillac! (Sounds mean, but she quit working when they really couldn't afford for her to)... Wait, you need a replacement for your work truck, why aren't you looking at small trucks?"
Dad: "That's what I went for initially, but I saw this, and wow it's a pretty car!"
Me: "It is very pretty, but that's $250 each month that could be going to other things"
Dad: "Like what?"
Me: "Savings! Flights to see your Grandchildren in Colorado, College funds, Health costs, just any emergency that might pop up!"
Dad: "Well, we need a new car."
Me: "Not yet, why don't you just put that $250/mo in a savings account, and if/when your truck dies, you can use that savings to buy something with cash?"
Dad: "It is a really pretty car"

I spent an hour or so that evening sending him links to used trucks and cars that were half the cost and similar mileage of the Cadillac.  I also found that the price on the Cadillac was >$1000 over KBB value for buying from a dealer.

He said he was going to see if they would drop the price to match KBB... he's probably going to buy it.  Ugh

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

[RWD]

<truncated, "It is a really pretty car">

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

I don't think you were too harsh. Sounds like quite a waste of money for their situation. Cadillacs aren't even that great of cars anymore. Reliability is pretty poor, for example: http://www.truedelta.com/Cadillac/brand-reliability-Cadillac

[Vindicated]

<truncated, "It is a really pretty car">

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

I don't think you were too harsh. Sounds like quite a waste of money for their situation. Cadillacs aren't even that great of cars anymore. Reliability is pretty poor, for example: http://www.truedelta.com/Cadillac/brand-reliability-Cadillac

Yeah, he also mentioned there would be no warranty.  I asked him how they would pay for repairs, and he said that they wouldn't be driving it often, so it'd be fine.  THEN WHY BUY IT!?!?  *sigh*

[Just Joe]

Nothing wrong with discouraging this sort of behavior. Their problems could otherwise become your problems. Paycheck to paycheck is a young man's game when you are healthy and have no stuff ad can crash on someone's couch.

[Dave1442397]

My parents have no retirement savings, although my Dad expects a reasonable pension in a few years.  He figures that with the pension and SS, they'll be alright on paying bills.  That's fine.

Then he calls me yesterday and asks me to drop by after work to see the car he's thinking about buying, because he's afraid his work truck is going to bite the dust sometime soon.  It's a used Cadillac.

I spent an hour or so that evening sending him links to used trucks and cars that were half the cost and similar mileage of the Cadillac.  I also found that the price on the Cadillac was >$1000 over KBB value for buying from a dealer.

He said he was going to see if they would drop the price to match KBB... he's probably going to buy it.  Ugh

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

If it's a 2008 or 2009 CTS, run away. If it's a 4-wheel drive car, run away no matter what model it is. The CTS forums are riddled with drive shaft failures and crankcase failures costing anywhere from $4500 to $8000 to fix.

I got lucky with my 2010 CTS (rear wheel drive). I've only had to replace the alternator and two wheel bearings in 86k miles.

My FIL, on the other hand, asked me for advice about a few different cars, and then went out and bought a 2008 CTS. It only has 50k miles on it now, and has needed around $7k worth of repairs outside the warranty period. The most recent was the high pressure fuel pump, replaced for almost $800.

My next car will be a Lexus.

[gimp]

OK, it's time to rescue the Scholar. This situation just can't be allowed to exist.

...

If it's OK for Bill and Jane to live in the pimp-in-law's house, eat the pimp-in-law's food, and live at the pimp-in-law's expense as a pair of butthurt basement dwellers, it's OK for other people to mention that it's happening and to perhaps comment on it. If the people involved do something besides swell with pride, then maybe it's time for them to reconsider their role in the situation.

[under his breath] holy shit

[Vindicated]

My parents have no retirement savings, although my Dad expects a reasonable pension in a few years.  He figures that with the pension and SS, they'll be alright on paying bills.  That's fine.

Then he calls me yesterday and asks me to drop by after work to see the car he's thinking about buying, because he's afraid his work truck is going to bite the dust sometime soon.  It's a used Cadillac.

I spent an hour or so that evening sending him links to used trucks and cars that were half the cost and similar mileage of the Cadillac.  I also found that the price on the Cadillac was >$1000 over KBB value for buying from a dealer.

He said he was going to see if they would drop the price to match KBB... he's probably going to buy it.  Ugh

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

If it's a 2008 or 2009 CTS, run away. If it's a 4-wheel drive car, run away no matter what model it is. The CTS forums are riddled with drive shaft failures and crankcase failures costing anywhere from $4500 to $8000 to fix.

I got lucky with my 2010 CTS (rear wheel drive). I've only had to replace the alternator and two wheel bearings in 86k miles.

My FIL, on the other hand, asked me for advice about a few different cars, and then went out and bought a 2008 CTS. It only has 50k miles on it now, and has needed around $7k worth of repairs outside the warranty period. The most recent was the high pressure fuel pump, replaced for almost $800.

My next car will be a Lexus.

Woohoo!  He didn't buy the car!

He said he took the car back, and looked at cheaper options.  He couldn't find anything yet, driving lot to lot, so I'm going to help him this weekend.  I told him he just needs to get on Craig's List, but he doesn't know what that is, ofc.  No problem, I'm happy to help!

[Paul der Krake]

The car rental place messed up a couple months ago, so we ended up getting a fully loaded CTS for a week. I cannot speak for the reliability, but it was an awesome car to drive around in. Quiet, very comfortable, luxurious but not too flashy. I felt like a million bucks in that thing. I can totally see how a non-Mustachian would start writing checks.

[FIT_Goat]

Yikes. I think everyone in my family has taken advantage of subsidized family living arrangements at some point, but there was always both an end in sight and a benefit for both parties. For example:

-Cousin gets divorced and needs to get back on her feet. Lives with great-grandma who is starting not to be able to be alone. Both win; no one is taken advantage of.
-I want to save up so I don't go in debt for my masters. Grandpa wants to rent out a room since he's lonely in his house since grandma died. Both win!
-Sister has run up more student debt than she can handle. Rents at my parents' place while she pays things off and does some home renovations for them.
-Brother ends up in a bad living situation. Moves in with husband and me. He pays cheap rent; we benefit from cheap rent and an unlimited supply of board games.
-Another cousin out of work moves into another great-grandma's house and provides end of life care that the entire family appreciates.

I could go on and on. In none of these cases were any of us ashamed or secretive about what we did. Lying and wanting others to lie for you is a good sign what you're doing is wrong.

Yeah, the lies and secrecy is a major bad sign.  I've currently got my MIL living with us.  After my FIL died, she was unhappy living alone.  It's not really financial, she could afford to live on her own, but she wants people around her.  I don't mind her, and my wife is her closest child.  So, it's no big deal.  She does provide some money to cover the increased expenses.  Plus, we moved into a larger house, in part, to have more room for everyone.  Still, it's clear that the house is my wife's and mine.  We could afford it on my salary alone, not even including my wife's income.  We're not relying on her support.  Likewise, she's not reliant on us.  If she wanted, she could afford to move out and get her own place.

It's not a bad arrangement.  LOL, although when people hear that I moved my MIL into my house, they think I am whipped.  There's no hiding.  There's no shame.  It's just an arrangement that works for us.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Yikes. I think everyone in my family has taken advantage of subsidized family living arrangements at some point, but there was always both an end in sight and a benefit for both parties. For example:

-Cousin gets divorced and needs to get back on her feet. Lives with great-grandma who is starting not to be able to be alone. Both win; no one is taken advantage of.
-I want to save up so I don't go in debt for my masters. Grandpa wants to rent out a room since he's lonely in his house since grandma died. Both win!
-Sister has run up more student debt than she can handle. Rents at my parents' place while she pays things off and does some home renovations for them.
-Brother ends up in a bad living situation. Moves in with husband and me. He pays cheap rent; we benefit from cheap rent and an unlimited supply of board games.
-Another cousin out of work moves into another great-grandma's house and provides end of life care that the entire family appreciates.

I could go on and on. In none of these cases were any of us ashamed or secretive about what we did. Lying and wanting others to lie for you is a good sign what you're doing is wrong.

Yeah, the lies and secrecy is a major bad sign.  I've currently got my MIL living with us.  After my FIL died, she was unhappy living alone.  It's not really financial, she could afford to live on her own, but she wants people around her.  I don't mind her, and my wife is her closest child.  So, it's no big deal.  She does provide some money to cover the increased expenses.  Plus, we moved into a larger house, in part, to have more room for everyone.  Still, it's clear that the house is my wife's and mine.  We could afford it on my salary alone, not even including my wife's income.  We're not relying on her support.  Likewise, she's not reliant on us.  If she wanted, she could afford to move out and get her own place.

It's not a bad arrangement.  LOL, although when people hear that I moved my MIL into my house, they think I am whipped.  There's no hiding.  There's no shame.  It's just an arrangement that works for us.

Group living is not shameful, especially when it's "win-win" for everyone involved. Lying to cover up someone else's lies and defective behavior definitely is. Nobody wins and everyone looks and feels stupid.

[Vindicated]

The car rental place messed up a couple months ago, so we ended up getting a fully loaded CTS for a week. I cannot speak for the reliability, but it was an awesome car to drive around in. Quiet, very comfortable, luxurious but not too flashy. I felt like a million bucks in that thing. I can totally see how a non-Mustachian would start writing checks.

Oh yeah, I drove it.  It rode great, and did make you feel like you've "made it".  I could see the temptation.  I'm just glad I've discovered MMM, so I could offer the advice that I did.

[zolotiyeruki]

...
Me: "So, you're going to raise your payments $250/mo, and your debt to $25k, for a car you don't need?"
Dad: "Your Mom's always wanted a Cadillac"
...

Me: "Not yet, why don't you just put that $250/mo in a savings account, and if/when your truck dies, you can use that savings to buy something with cash?"
Dad: "It is a really pretty car"
...

Yeesh, avoiding the question much?

[HairyUpperLip]

.

Cadillac's kinda suck.

They aren't even considered "high-end luxury"  They are a mid-tier luxury brand.

I hope this works out well. If they insist on the car, then try to steer then towards something actually worth having like a Lexus.

[Just Joe]

I'd argue that the Caddy and Lincolns are nice but not that much nicer than an Accord/Camry/Avalon/Fusion/Impala/etc.

Quiet interiors and horsepower are the two biggest differences between our well-aged frugal cars and the newer choices in family sedans.

[LalsConstant]

So my apartment lease is coming up soon and I am currently investigating another rental unit which has one fewer amenities and is a bit smaller.  I did the same thing when my last lease came up and it was one of the best moves I could have made.  I have decided until I am in a position to buy a place to live I am just going to keep doing this.  It is not true minimalism but I discovered there are a lot of benefits to downsizing and purging unnecessary possessions.  I do this thing where I fight viciously to keep my absolute dollar volume spending level the same as it ever was and part of how I do it is I make gradual lifestyle downgrades.  So in 5 years my monthly budget has only gone up $100.

The unit I am considering would be about $100 less per month, which in terms of my goals is huge.  That extra little bit would shave a considerable amount of time off some of my objectives.  I honestly value the money more than the apartment at this point in my life.

Short version is my family members heard about this and expressed I must be insane, did you lose your job, just get a loan if you need money, etc.  Le sigh.

[Joggernot]

So my apartment lease...

I'm impressed with your "name".  Wish I could understand the math...:)

[Guava]

We were at BILs recently and they have been trying to heat their house with the fireplace to reduce their natural gas bill and electric bills. They use a starter log every time the fire gets low so it burns better because they don't have any kindling. They live on several wooded acres. I asked why they didn't prepare a stock in the fall from the woods. They said the starter log is the only thing that works to keep a fire going...

[Just Joe]

A dollar every time they want to start the fireplace? Good grief. ;)

They need tutoring by a good cub scout. My former boy scout and I have competitions - who can start a campfire with a single match? Yeah he could probably do it without a match but rubbing two stick together takes too long. ;)

[zolotiyeruki]

A dollar every time they want to start the fireplace? Good grief. ;)

They need tutoring by a good cub scout. My former boy scout and I have competitions - who can start a campfire with a single match? Yeah he could probably do it without a match but rubbing two stick together takes too long. ;)

As a scoutmaster, I did this with the boys in my troop.  You get one match.  Fire doesn't start?  That means you did something wrong.  You've got five minutes to rework your fire before I'll give you another match :)

[bigalsmith101]

My brother-in-law is self employed, and works with his father.

My brother-in-law earns 40% of the total income while my father in law earns 60%. It's perfectly reasonable, as all the tools of the trade, transportation, contacts and experience are a result of the father in law.

My brother-in-law is looking to buy a home in our market, and as a self employed individual, has to show a few years of work history to be considered for a mortgage.

This year, come tax time, I found out that upon the advice from his father, my brother-in-law deliberately over stated his income when filing his taxes, to the tune of about $6-7k. The purpose was to make his income look more appealing to the banks when he applies for mortgages. This will increase his tax liability by about $1200-$1500.

The sole benefit of this ridiculous action was my father-in-law, as he now will claim lower income, and have a lower tax liability. My wife and I are uncertain as to whether my father-in-law was trying to give his son good advice, but we are certain that he knew his tax liability would decrease if his son followed his advice.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Edit: It should be noted that the son, age 25, lives with his parents and has not significantly contributed in the past 5 years to rent or food. My in-laws are growing increasingly more antsy subsidizing him this way, and are actively pressuring him to move out.

[Linea_Norway]

We were at BILs recently and they have been trying to heat their house with the fireplace to reduce their natural gas bill and electric bills. They use a starter log every time the fire gets low so it burns better because they don't have any kindling. They live on several wooded acres. I asked why they didn't prepare a stock in the fall from the woods. They said the starter log is the only thing that works to keep a fire going...

Is this an open fireplace? This heats up for outside air for like 85% of it's heat. A modern, closed wood stove is the thing for getting a warm house.

I do admit that I use a fire starter brake-off block for lighting the fire. On the other hand, that is all we spend on making fire in our stove, as we cut our own trees. We usually make a new pile in spring for the next winter.

[Torran]

One of the major regrets in my life is taking so much (money (mostly for education) and living in their house way after 18) from my parents, because not it feels like I "owe" them. The thing I would love to do over in my life is ever living at home again after I started university. My mother's "love language" is gifts, but that's also her transactional "you owe me" language. I went to private school with lots of extras, I barely had to get any student loans, I did a postgrad course while living at home... And I would give it all back in a heartbeat if I could be free of the sense of obligation. I can forgive myself for all the stuff I asked for (and didn't ask for) and got as a child, because children don't know any better. But I wish I'd realised before age about 24 that the money wasn't worth the emotional toll, and that I'd been brave enough to do something about it. If you have parents who don't make love or gifts conditional, I hope you are grateful for them every single day of your life.

Yep, I had brilliant parents who have helped me financially so much, and they never held it over me. Me and my brother got a very even split of money and help.

However the guilt is very real! :) I feel so guilty about how much help I've received and hope that I can repay them in some way, some day. I don't think they'll ever need my help financially (although ofcourse I would offer it if they did) but I've tried to live a good life and not cause them too much worry or hassle. And if they ever got sick ofcourse I'd want to be near them and look after them. Apart from that I just live with the guilt, lol. I've told them I'm grateful for it, but should probably do that more often.

PS: I don't think you did anything wrong in accepting what they gave you (especially when younger, we really don't know any better) but it sucks that you have to live with the sense of obligation. It must be difficult to say the least :(

[Torran]

The eldest son of my good friend is a pathological liar, and overall a pretty low grade shitbag, but he is smart, real smart. He headed off to a state university and failed his first semester. He bullshitted his way through academic probation and squeaked through the second semester by a hair. His primary goal during this entire adventure was to be a real successful weed dealer, and he excelled. He then spent the entire next year, on campus, playing the part of a student, and never attended a single class. He was registered, and finished with a 0.0 GPA for the year.  He spent the year moving a ton of dope and never raised an eyebrow in town, like I said, this guy is smooth.  His mom was a big fan of denial, and always brushed off all of his crap as "boys will be boys". Finally, after two years, the school and his parents were no longer buying his lies, and he moved on. He quickly moved into "legitimate" sales, and his first job was screwing the elderly by selling them overpriced, low grade insurance, that they didn't need.

Just shows that smart people will land on their feet, college degree or no.

On the topic of bullshitting your way through college/uni -
When I was 20 I was sitting exams midway through my degree (not finals). I was super-stressed and actually forgot about one of the exams. I just totally forgot to turn up. I was mortified when I realised. I called up the uni and told them what I'd done and they insisted I'd sat the exam. When I got the results, they'd given me a pass grade. For an exam I didn't sit. It kind of made me wonder how legit the whole university thing was.

*Goes home to check legitimacy of degree certificate*

[With This Herring]

We were at BILs recently and they have been trying to heat their house with the fireplace to reduce their natural gas bill and electric bills. They use a starter log every time the fire gets low so it burns better because they don't have any kindling. They live on several wooded acres. I asked why they didn't prepare a stock in the fall from the woods. They said the starter log is the only thing that works to keep a fire going...

If only someone could develop some sort of new, better fire that could burn wood, paper, houses...  Oh well.  We don't live in some sort of science fiction world!   /s

Seriously, they don't have any newspaper to get the embers going before they chuck some wood in there?  Or do they solely burn starter logs?

Why do they have trouble burning things?  Is there possibly a ventilation issue?  If they hadn't used their fireplace before this season, is there creosote buildup that might cause a chimney fire?

+1 for Linda_Norway's wood stove suggestion.

[gimp]

For what it's worth, you don't start fires by rubbing two sticks together, you sorta spin one stick inside the hole of another stick.

Check it out

Also, fireplaces are terrible at heating a house. Like, to the point where really inefficient fireplaces basically make things colder. Fireplaces are strictly decorative unless the house is really old or they were built to be a pretty stove. If they want to warm their house by burning wood, they should be using a stove to do it. And even those I think are generally sort of inefficient.

[Guava]

Is this an open fireplace? This heats up for outside air for like 85% of it's heat. A modern, closed wood stove is the thing for getting a warm house.

Yes it is an open fireplace. It does a horrible job heating anything but maybe two feet in front of it, which is where I was the whole time. The other problem is they have peaked ceilings in a log cabin house with no insulation. Really, they just have a lot working against them. It's kind of their thing...

If only someone could develop some sort of new, better fire that could burn wood, paper, houses...  Oh well.  We don't live in some sort of science fiction world!   /s

Seriously, they don't have any newspaper to get the embers going before they chuck some wood in there?  Or do they solely burn starter logs?

Why do they have trouble burning things?  Is there possibly a ventilation issue?  If they hadn't used their fireplace before this season, is there creosote buildup that might cause a chimney fire?

+1 for Linda_Norway's wood stove suggestion.

They do not solely burn starter logs. If they keep it going they can throw some logs they bought in there (yes they live in the woods and buy wood split wood so they don't have to split it).

I have no idea why they have so much trouble.  They have used the fireplace before. I mostly think they just forget about it and then it dies out and the starter log gets it back going.

[Step37]

We were at BILs recently and they have been trying to heat their house with the fireplace to reduce their natural gas bill and electric bills. They use a starter log every time the fire gets low so it burns better because they don't have any kindling. They live on several wooded acres. I asked why they didn't prepare a stock in the fall from the woods. They said the starter log is the only thing that works to keep a fire going...

Is this an open fireplace? This heats up for outside air for like 85% of it's heat. A modern, closed wood stove is the thing for getting a warm house.

I do admit that I use a fire starter brake-off block for lighting the fire. On the other hand, that is all we spend on making fire in our stove, as we cut our own trees. We usually make a new pile in spring for the next winter.

My sister and BIL use ONLY the fire logs (Duraflame, I think). I was horrified without even knowing the cost, which I've now looked up (and doubled my horror!). Looks like around $10 PER LOG... and they were burning two or three a day while I was visiting last month. "Why don't you buy firewood from the garden centre DOWN THE STREET?" "Oh, it doesn't stay lit, so we just get these." Gee, I wonder why you're in the red every.single.month. Ack.