Relatives who just don't get it

[MgoSam]

My current employer actually requires people to bring in their degrees and have them copied and put into our employee files.  It's the only instance I've ever heard of an employer checking.

When I served on my university's academic discipline board, we had a case in which a former student was found guilty of forging diplomas and selling them to people who hadn't attended university and had employers like yours.

Was his name Frank Abagnale Jr?

[Vindicated]

My current employer actually requires people to bring in their degrees and have them copied and put into our employee files.  It's the only instance I've ever heard of an employer checking.

When I served on my university's academic discipline board, we had a case in which a former student was found guilty of forging diplomas and selling them to people who hadn't attended university and had employers like yours.

Wow, I can't believe the b*lls that'd take.  Not the forging, that's not too unbelievable, but to apply to a job as if you had the education for it... Possibly living your whole career as a fraud.  You could gain all the knowledge you needed on the job, because who uses stuff they learned in college at work?  I do VERY minimally.

Was his name Frank Abagnale Jr?

Great movie!

[Metric Mouse]

The eldest son of my good friend is a pathological liar, and overall a pretty low grade shitbag, but he is smart, real smart. He headed off to a state university and failed his first semester. He bullshitted his way through academic probation and squeaked through the second semester by a hair. His primary goal during this entire adventure was to be a real successful weed dealer, and he excelled. He then spent the entire next year, on campus, playing the part of a student, and never attended a single class. He was registered, and finished with a 0.0 GPA for the year.  He spent the year moving a ton of dope and never raised an eyebrow in town, like I said, this guy is smooth.  His mom was a big fan of denial, and always brushed off all of his crap as "boys will be boys". Finally, after two years, the school and his parents were no longer buying his lies, and he moved on. He quickly moved into "legitimate" sales, and his first job was screwing the elderly by selling them overpriced, low grade insurance, that they didn't need.

Just shows that smart people will land on their feet, college degree or no.

[CheapScholar]

I've commented on this thread about my BIL and his GF before.  Summary:

BIL (32), we can call him Bill
GF (29), we can call her Jane

They have been dating over a decade.  They both only lived away from respective parents homes for one year of their lives.  This was about 5 years ago when they rented an apt together in the city.  They both lived at home during college.  This wasn't to save money, it was to continue living as children.

Their year together in the apt didn't go so well.  It was an expensive place in a trendy neighborhood.  They ate mostly take out or dined at restaurants.  They bought a designer dog for a few grand.  They both racked up CC debt.  The lease ended and they decided to both live with respective parents to "save money to buy a house."  This is 5 years ago almost.   About 2 years after moving home, people started to politely inquire about the status of the savings for the down payment they declared they would have.  They had made basically zero progress.  Bill had paid off some CC debt.  But wasn't trying very hard.  Jane wasn't saving much of anything.  Jane got pissed at Bill because he hadn't saved enough (I estimate Bill makes about 85K and Jane about 60K).  So Jane retaliated about 3 years ago and leased a BMW SUV at over $700 per month.  This was her way of stating her independence and saying FU to Bill for not saving for a down payment or engagement ring.  Bill himself owned a Jeep SUV.  He had it for a little over 5 years and it started to have some minor problems so he bought a brand new one about 9 months ago.  Seemed to me that once his 5 year auto loan ended he just had to get something new.  Her BMW lease ended about 6 months ago and she leased another BMW.  As you can see, they make decent money (it is a HCOL area). As you can also see, a lot of their money goes to vehicles.  They also live about an hour from each other, so they burn quite a bit of fuel to see each other.  Or, they meet halfway in the city and pay a fortune to park their SUVs and eat at fancy restaurants. Over the past 5 years they've gone on numerous vacations.  Europe, Mexico twice, San Diego.  They just recently went to New Orleans because Jane ran the marathon down there.  Anyone who runs knows how expensive a marathon can be for traveling (race fee, inflated hotel cost).  Of course, they were down there for 4 nights and really lived it up.  Plenty of FB pics of them eating food and doing stupid touristy things.  Sometimes they just get a hotel in the city they live in and have a weekend getaway.  They constantly go to pro sporting events and concerts, probably every weekend in the summer. They both buy new clothing a lot.  I suspect most of Bill's money goes to video games, DVDs, and I suspect he probably spends at least $10 on lunch everyday.  Jane buys new clothes all the time.  They belong to a gym.  Jane posted on FB yesterday that she needed and deserved a 2 hour massage because she ran the marathon last week.

I've only scratched the surface.  Honestly, this used to be comical to me but now it's just really sad.  Bill told my wife about 5 years ago when he moved back in with the parents that he "really doesn't like the responsibility of paying bills."  Clearly he doesn't want a mortgage, gas bill, water bill, cable, etc.  It's all paid for and my in-laws put no pressure on him to move.  My wife does get bothered by it sometimes but now she's at a point where she just accepts it.  Her parents are getting older and she sees a benefit in him being there in case they need help.  Another funny piece of the story is that he lies about his living situation.  I found out that Bill still tells his co-workers that he lives in the old apt in the city.  He also doesn't want the extended family to know he's living back at home.  So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.

[FIRE me]

I've commented on this thread about my BIL and his GF before.  Summary:

BIL (32), we can call him Bill
GF (29), we can call her Jane

They have been dating over a decade.  They both only lived away from respective parents homes for one year of their lives.  This was about 5 years ago when they rented an apt together in the city.  They both lived at home during college.  This wasn't to save money, it was to continue living as children.

I don't know which is worse. The 30 year old going on 13 children, or the parents who enable it.

[paddedhat]

 So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.


Well, bless you, since you are far more tactful than I could ever be. I would respond to questions about Bill with, " Oh, Bill................well, Bill is still suffering from that awkward "failure to launch" issue, and is well on his way to his forth decade of breast feeding".  Yea, there is no way in hell I would cover for that sorry ass. If he can't put his big boy pants on, and grow the fuck up, the fact that he lives in Mommy's basement is fair game, and the horrified look on the relative's faces as you break the news, well that's just peanut butter icing on that particular cake.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.


Well, bless you, since you are far more tactful than I could ever be. I would respond to questions about Bill with, " Oh, Bill................well, Bill is still suffering from that awkward "failure to launch" issue, and is well on his way to his forth decade of breast feeding".  Yea, there is no way in hell I would cover for that sorry ass. If he can't put his big boy pants on, and grow the fuck up, the fact that he lives in Mommy's basement is fair game, and the horrified look on the relative's faces as you break the news, well that's just peanut butter icing on that particular cake.

OK, it's time to rescue the Scholar. This situation just can't be allowed to exist.

I've been polite-- almost reclusive, in fact-- ever since I verbally shoved some fuel rods in a place they shouldn't go, as part of an ongoing quest to correct a deer tick infestation on the hide of one of our other venerable forum members, and subsequently got corrected by a moderator for openly maligning the chastity of Wells Fargo.

But it's no time for half measures.

One of the key purposes behind Mustachianism is to earn "fuck you" money so as to never, ever again be troubled by idiots. Financial independence is a process of idiot-proofing one's life to the point where decisions made by imbeciles, dolts, assholes, and shitheads no longer affect you one way or another. You can't be pressured to morally compromise yourself for, say, an employer or a paycheck because you don't need the paychecks so badly that you give a fuck whether you get the next one. In fact it's safe to say that financial independence provides us with the freedom to raise a single finger, in a single direction, any time we're pressured to do something we don't actually want to do, and to invite the recipient of the gesture to paraphrase because we don't really think they're "Number One".

Financial independence allows you to give no fucks whatsoever about things that don't actually concern you. It's like having a depleted-uranium codpiece, except without the down side of keeping a mildly radioactive piece of metal next to one's crotch. Having a generous number of FI people in the family or the community provides outstanding stability, because people who are FI never have to accept abuse as a condition of participation in a workplace, a family, or any other social group.

Under no circumstances should you allow any relative to get the idea that they can control, or influence, what comes out of your mouth. It's Bill and Jane who have turned in their adult card, not you. Mommy and Daddy pay their bills, therefore they can call the shots. They don't pay The Scholar's bills, so guess what: they don't get to call those shots.

Let us now pause for a moment to contemplate that unique piece of religious philosophy known as the Golden Rule: Whoever provides the gold, expects to make the rules. Obviously it applies to Bill and Jane, because Bill and Jane turned in their adult cards in the hopes of acting out the financial equivalent of an adult diapering fantasy. No Mustachian would ever voluntarily be part of such a Faustian agreement, because those among us who have unusual fetishes are more than capable of finding a community where our kinks can be satisfied, without sacrificing our personal or financial autonomy.

Bill and Jane have chosen a different path up the mountain. Instead of working toward independence, they've deliberately blown up their independence in order to attract and keep enablers. The enablers in question, not satisfied simply with financially castrating their own son, are trying to draw other people into the conspiracy to cover up the defective behavior AND their willing enabling behavior.

That's really fucked up. They've gone far beyond simply being peasants who voluntarily make sacrifices to allow other people to live for free, like medieval serfs in the court of some toxic monarch. They are now acting as pimps, deliberately recruiting other people to enable the fucked-up infantile bullshit by normalizing it.

If the pimp-in-laws can pressure CheapScholar into knowing knowing about Bill and Jane's voluntary return to the breast-feeding lifestyle but publicly pretending it hasn't happened, they succeed in sucking more people into their toxic drama. Simply pretending to condone the behavior, instead of allowing the normal predictable consequences (including criticism) to occur, delays the point at which Bill and Jane migrate off the nipple. In the meantime, the daily habits they practice will become ever more ingrained, and the situation will become more thoroughly entrenched.

You know, you don't have to wiggle your hips and sashay over every time your pimp-in-laws flash a pinky ring. What are you hoping for, a hefty but unnecessary inheritance? Also, what will they actually if you mention the Forbidden Family Secret in public: bitch-slap you into next week? That's unlikely, since public commentary on their bitchass behavior is precisely the thing they don't want to attract. So make a different choice. Don't deliberately participate in stupid family behavior.

If it's OK for Bill and Jane to live in the pimp-in-law's house, eat the pimp-in-law's food, and live at the pimp-in-law's expense as a pair of butthurt basement dwellers, it's OK for other people to mention that it's happening and to perhaps comment on it. If the people involved do something besides swell with pride, then maybe it's time for them to reconsider their role in the situation.

[Ann]

So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.

Well, bless you, since you are far more tactful than I could ever be. I would respond to questions about Bill with, " Oh, Bill................well, Bill is still suffering from that awkward "failure to launch" issue, and is well on his way to his forth decade of breast feeding".  Yea, there is no way in hell I would cover for that sorry ass. If he can't put his big boy pants on, and grow the fuck up, the fact that he lives in Mommy's basement is fair game, and the horrified look on the relative's faces as you break the news, well that's just peanut butter icing on that particular cake.

...Don't deliberately participate in stupid family behavior...

I guess if you were  mad at them you could tell your relatives about their failure to launch.  But other than laughing at BIL when he asks you not to leak the news to other relatives, I'm not sure what I'd do personally.  Because I wouldn't actively keep the "secret" but I also don't routinely go around and talk about where my brother or BIL or whatever is living.  I just don't feel the need.  Is his story even important enough to be a topic of casual conversation?   

Although I could easily see the "secret" being leaked if a relative, say, gave me something (like a borrowed book or tool) to return to my parents(in law) and I just say "Just give it to BIL -- he lives with them".

[Metric Mouse]

So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.

Well, bless you, since you are far more tactful than I could ever be. I would respond to questions about Bill with, " Oh, Bill................well, Bill is still suffering from that awkward "failure to launch" issue, and is well on his way to his forth decade of breast feeding".  Yea, there is no way in hell I would cover for that sorry ass. If he can't put his big boy pants on, and grow the fuck up, the fact that he lives in Mommy's basement is fair game, and the horrified look on the relative's faces as you break the news, well that's just peanut butter icing on that particular cake.

...Don't deliberately participate in stupid family behavior...

I guess if you were  mad at them you could tell your relatives about their failure to launch.  But other than laughing at BIL when he asks you not to leak the news to other relatives, I'm not sure what I'd do personally.  Because I wouldn't actively keep the "secret" but I also don't routinely go around and talk about where my brother or BIL or whatever is living.  I just don't feel the need.  Is his story even important enough to be a topic of casual conversation?   

Although I could easily see the "secret" being leaked if a relative, say, gave me something (like a borrowed book or tool) to return to my parents(in law) and I just say "Just give it to BIL -- he lives with them".

Right? I can't imagine being concerned enough with other person's living arrangements to even bother mentioning it, much less look down upon it or use it as a source of ridicule.

[paddedhat]

So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.

Well, bless you, since you are far more tactful than I could ever be. I would respond to questions about Bill with, " Oh, Bill................well, Bill is still suffering from that awkward "failure to launch" issue, and is well on his way to his forth decade of breast feeding".  Yea, there is no way in hell I would cover for that sorry ass. If he can't put his big boy pants on, and grow the fuck up, the fact that he lives in Mommy's basement is fair game, and the horrified look on the relative's faces as you break the news, well that's just peanut butter icing on that particular cake.

...Don't deliberately participate in stupid family behavior...

I guess if you were  mad at them you could tell your relatives about their failure to launch.  But other than laughing at BIL when he asks you not to leak the news to other relatives, I'm not sure what I'd do personally.  Because I wouldn't actively keep the "secret" but I also don't routinely go around and talk about where my brother or BIL or whatever is living.  I just don't feel the need.  Is his story even important enough to be a topic of casual conversation?   

Although I could easily see the "secret" being leaked if a relative, say, gave me something (like a borrowed book or tool) to return to my parents(in law) and I just say "Just give it to BIL -- he lives with them".

Right? I can't imagine being concerned enough with other person's living arrangements to even bother mentioning it, much less look down upon it or use it as a source of ridicule.

IMHO, it has nothing to do with your level of concern, or desire to ridicule. It's simply a matter of being unwilling to keep the family secrets   to further an absolutely absurd situation. This is not a matter of a damaged sibling (recovering addict, mental health issues, or equal) who is not fully functioning, but giving it a best effort, and being supported by caring parents. This is a guy who makes a significant salary, and is unwilling to adult. As the successful sibling, I would find no need to out this clown on Facebook. OTOH, there is simply no way in hell that I would fold to family pressure to, "keep our little secret". Sorry but if you are willing to participate in the charade, you are also at some level, enabling the situation. So, if you are at uncle Jimmy's wake, drink in hand, and aunt Erma says, "well, Cheap Scholar, your brother certainly has done well for himself, lovely bride to be, impressive apartment downtown, fancy car. Wish my son was doing so well".  That's the point where your participation in this silly horseshit comes to a hard stop.

Now, the other option is to drown the whole idea before it even launches. Mom pulls you aside before Uncle Jimmy's wake and says, "We are a bit concerned for Billy. Seems he never told anyone that he moved back into the basement, and is a bit embarrassed by the whole situation, we don't want you to tell any of the family".  That's the appropriate time to break out the nopes. "Sorry mom, but you may be the head enabler of that sorry sack, but I'm not you assistant. I won't bring it up to the clan, but if anybody asks about it,  I'm not lying for that sorry ass."

[coin]

IMHO, it has nothing to do with your level of concern, or desire to ridicule. It's simply a matter of being unwilling to keep the family secrets   to further an absolutely absurd situation. This is not a matter of a damaged sibling (recovering addict, mental health issues, or equal) who is not fully functioning, but giving it a best effort, and being supported by caring parents. This is a guy who makes a significant salary, and is unwilling to adult. As the successful sibling, I would find no need to out this clown on Facebook. OTOH, there is simply no way in hell that I would fold to family pressure to, "keep our little secret". Sorry but if you are willing to participate in the charade, you are also at some level, enabling the situation. So, if you are at uncle Jimmy's wake, drink in hand, and aunt Erma says, "well, Cheap Scholar, your brother certainly has done well for himself, lovely bride to be, impressive apartment downtown, fancy car. Wish my son was doing so well".  That's the point where your participation in this silly horseshit comes to a hard stop.

Now, the other option is to drown the whole idea before it even launches. Mom pulls you aside before Uncle Jimmy's wake and says, "We are a bit concerned for Billy. Seems he never told anyone that he moved back into the basement, and is a bit embarrassed by the whole situation, we don't want you to tell any of the family".  That's the appropriate time to break out the nopes. "Sorry mom, but you may be the head enabler of that sorry sack, but I'm not you assistant. I won't bring it up to the clan, but if anybody asks about it,  I'm not lying for that sorry ass."

Yes, so much this.  My own siblings have absolutely ridiculous savings rates by dint of living at our parents house, but think it's appropriate to ask me to lie and cover for them when they decide they want all the benefits of Mummy and Daddy Lodgings without any of the uncomfortable obligations like obeying the house rules.  I've told them I'm not going to lie to our parents on their behalf, so they should think very carefully before making me an accessory to shenanigans.  I'll happily look after the dog and my parents house when my 19 year old brother is off gallivanting with his friends, but I'm not about to tell our parents he was home all weekend when he wasn't - I'll just direct our parents right back to him and he can deal with it.

What particularly annoys me is that they used to tattle on me all the damn time, even when I hadn't really done anything particularly wrong.  But, of course, this is different, they are special.

[RWD]

Was his name Frank Abagnale Jr?

Great movie!

You know that's a real person, right?

[merula]

So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.

Does no one in your family send holiday cards? Wedding invites? Anything via USPS? That's how it's been obvious when my idiot cousins have been living at home. "Hey Aunt, can you please send me Cousin's address?" "Oh, he's...taking his mail at home."

I've been polite-- almost reclusive, in fact-- ever since I verbally shoved some fuel rods in a place they shouldn't go, as part of an ongoing quest to correct a deer tick infestation on the hide of one of our other venerable forum members, and subsequently got corrected by a moderator for openly maligning the chastity of Wells Fargo.

TGS, if you ever type something out and decide not to post it because of what mods might do, PM it to me instead. I think you're hilarious, especially when you're breaking Forum Rule #1.

[Vindicated]

Was his name Frank Abagnale Jr?

Great movie!

You know that's a real person, right?

Yep.  Just commenting on the quality of the film.

While it's impressive what the real Frank pulled off, the fictional representation of him is much easier to root for. 

[CheapScholar]

Ha, some good advice and funny remarks.  Thanks, guys.  My inlaws only keep Bill's living arrangement hush hush from the paternal side of their family.  I'm sure Bill would like the maternal side to be fed the lie as well, but the aunts and cousins are at the house on a weekly bass so that's not an option.  As for the paternal side that IS fed the lie, I virtually never see them.  The family isn't that close to the paternal side and my wife and I live 2 hours away.  I maybe see the side being lied to once every year or two.  And, to be clear, I've never lied for Bill.  Rest assured that if I had an even remote chance to expose him I would.  Couple other things:

I found out from Jane directly that Bill lies to his coworkers about his living arrangement.  She was at an office Christmas party at Bill's work a couple years ago and mentioned to someone she and Bill left the apt.  Bill got super pissed at Jane.  Jane wasn't aware of the lie he was living.  This just led to more fighting and excessive spending by both of them.

My inlaws don't put any pressure on Bill to leave.  MIL freaking loves having Bill around!  FIL is one of those cynical people who doesn't trust anyone or anything.  If Bill were to rent an apt my FIL would see it as a landlord getting rich at Bill's expense.  If Bill got a mortgage, FIL would see the bank as the bad guy.  Although, FIL has done things to suggest Bill should leave at times.  Three years ago for Xmas, FIL gave each Bill and my wife $10,000.  My inlaws aren't especially rich, so it was very generous.  The reason for the $10,000 was to help Bill with his down payment on his home.  Again, that was 3 years ago.  Bill told my wife recently that he currently has 50K for a down payment.  10K came from the Xmas gift, and another 15K was other investments my FIL designated for Bill (my wife received the same).  Which means that over 5 years, Bill has saved about 25K.  I suspect Jane has saved zero dollars.  I suspect this because my wife recently asked Bill what Jane has saved, and Bill said Jane refuses to talk about what she has saved or show any financial info to Bill.  I think they should have saved 120K EASILY, but what do I know.

Finally, things will get really interesting once Bill and Jane actually DO buy a home.  Neither of them can budget to save their lives.  Especially considering they have high standards and will probably buy a McMansion which can include property taxes of $1,000+ per month in their area.

[CheapScholar]

Oh, me replying again regarding the holiday cards!  Glad someone asked!  So, one of the cousins on the paternal side had a baby shower about a month ago.  Bill did not attend, but he sent a gift with MIL (I'd wager my left nut that MIL picked the gift and paid for it).

Anyway, a week after the shower, the cousin texts my wife and asks for Bill's address so she can send a thank you card.  My wife had no idea what to text back.  So, my wife texts Bill and asks what to say.  Basically no response from Bill for 2 whole days.  That's what Bill does.  He just ignores people if he feels embarrassed. 

So, my wife covers for Bill and texts the cousin that "Bill is traveling for work and I can't reach him, just send his TY note to my parents house."

My wife then texts Bill saying what she did, and he immediately responded "Thanks."

Enablers!

[Just Joe]

Doesn't sound like BILL saved any money. Sounds like FiL did the saving. ;)

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

[Mezzie]

Yikes. I think everyone in my family has taken advantage of subsidized family living arrangements at some point, but there was always both an end in sight and a benefit for both parties. For example:

-Cousin gets divorced and needs to get back on her feet. Lives with great-grandma who is starting not to be able to be alone. Both win; no one is taken advantage of.
-I want to save up so I don't go in debt for my masters. Grandpa wants to rent out a room since he's lonely in his house since grandma died. Both win!
-Sister has run up more student debt than she can handle. Rents at my parents' place while she pays things off and does some home renovations for them.
-Brother ends up in a bad living situation. Moves in with husband and me. He pays cheap rent; we benefit from cheap rent and an unlimited supply of board games.
-Another cousin out of work moves into another great-grandma's house and provides end of life care that the entire family appreciates.

I could go on and on. In none of these cases were any of us ashamed or secretive about what we did. Lying and wanting others to lie for you is a good sign what you're doing is wrong.

[onehair]

An update on my awful aunt and uncle: As you all know my mom has officially cut economic support to my aunt and uncle.  Now they've taken to calling her from odd numbers and Skypeing which she refuses to answer.  According to her they may have sent someone to the house to intimidate her into helping them financially again. So now they're using a sister of my deceased grandfather(known as GrandAunt D*** to us) to call her continually under the pretext of asking about her health and my nephew of course along the course of the conversation it turns to her helping my aunt and uncle out.  Now my mom is refusing to take the grandaunt's calls as well. 

[JordanOfGilead]

Recently found out my mom is signed up for a clothing "rental" service. Apparently she pays "like $40 or $50 a month" (she doesn't even know exactly how much?) and they send her outfits. She keeps them until she is done with them, then sends them back. Kind of how Netflix used to work before streaming.
Her: "It's great! there's all kinds of cute outfits that I never would have picked out for myself at the store"
Me: "but you're paying $50 a month for something you don't even get to keep ... "

I don't get it. She also wants to get a new Ram 1500 to replace her PERFECTLY FINE 08 fusion because my sister is almost 16 and she "needs" a car. Right. Is that why I didn't get my license until after I graduated from high school and even then had to pay for driver's ed, the car, and the insurance on my own? Sure ...

[BlueHouse]

One of the key purposes behind Mustachianism is to earn "fuck you" money so as to never, ever again be troubled by idiots. Financial independence is a process of idiot-proofing one's life to the point where decisions made by imbeciles, dolts, assholes, and shitheads no longer affect you one way or another. You can't be pressured to morally compromise yourself for, say, an employer or a paycheck because you don't need the paychecks so badly that you give a fuck whether you get the next one. In fact it's safe to say that financial independence provides us with the freedom to raise a single finger, in a single direction, any time we're pressured to do something we don't actually want to do, and to invite the recipient of the gesture to paraphrase because we don't really think they're "Number One".

Cutting this out, laminating it, and putting it in my wallet. 


If anyone knows how to set up a google alert so that I'm notified anytime TGS posts a humdinger like this one, please advise.  These are too good to miss!

[Shinplaster]

TGS, if you ever type something out and decide not to post it because of what mods might do, PM it to me instead. I think you're hilarious, especially when you're breaking Forum Rule #1.

You could have a subscription going for things you'd like to say, but would break the rules.  I'd sign up for that too.   

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Lying and wanting others to lie for you is a good sign what you're doing is wrong.

That's what makes the situation toxic. Pressuring other people to drink and distribute the bathwater by spreading the lies even though they know they're lies makes the group poisonous even if the "secret" they're being asked to cover up is totally innocuous. It messes with three people.

First, it gives a lower-contributing member of the group the benefit of contributing fully without the associated social responsibilities. If this continues long enough the low contributor will become genuinely unable to objectively assess the value of his or her contribution. He or she will also not experience the reasonably predictable negative outcome of the behavior which would otherwise serve as enough discomfort to correct his or her approach. Like a member of royalty supported by the labor of serfs or servants, the lower contributor will get used to having his or her needs met by others without regard to what he or she actually contributes. This is a significant predictor of subsequent practice of an addiction. Anyone who doesn't believe me needs only to substitute "using heroin" for "overspending" and the behavior pattern will pop right out.

Second, the person being manipulated into lying and enabling by covering up the lower contributor's work is forced to cede some of his or her autonomy but receives no benefit in exchange. Nor does he or she experience the reward that ordinarily comes from working hard and doing well, since the freeloader receives the same benefit as the hard worker. Resentment is inevitable. Furthermore, by kowtowing and going along with the plan to pretend Bill (or someone like him) is adulting well, the functional but unwilling enabler sets himself or herself up to be infantilized in the same way. When you've got one "kid" who receives mail at a parent's home and who is basically infantilized by that parent, pretty soon all the adult offspring will be infantilized as well and will have to fight with the extended family for basic courtesies such as being called or written to directly for social invitations instead of being treated as a minor child living in a parent's household. No free adult likes to be infantilized like that, and the idea of losing at least some social status is going to rankle.

Finally, going along with cover-up lying basically gives the enforcer who requests it the idea that he or she has the "right" to order another person to drink and distribute bathwater. Expect further delegation of enabling duties in the future, and the longer it goes on the greater the precedent will be. You're basically creating a family enforcer.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

An update on my awful aunt and uncle: As you all know my mom has officially cut economic support to my aunt and uncle.  Now they've taken to calling her from odd numbers and Skypeing which she refuses to answer.  According to her they may have sent someone to the house to intimidate her into helping them financially again. So now they're using an aunt of my deceased grandfather to call her continually under the pretext of asking about her health and my nephew of course along the course of the conversation it turns to her helping my aunt and uncle out.  Now my mom is refusing to take the aunt's calls as well.

This is a classic case of what happens when a crab makes a leap for the rim of the bucket.

Your mom is not alone. She's experiencing a very common group reaction. When she pried the aunt and uncle off the financial nipple, they retaliated through the rest of the family. It's basically an attempt to bully her back in line. A lot of the time the "victim" (in this case the formerly subsidized relatives) don't even need to ask the rest of the extended family for help; people take it upon themselves to dish out punishment.

The correct move, for your mother, is not to refuse to take the second velociraptor's phone calls. Cutting that person off weakens your mom's position and her social contact with the grandfather's aunt. It also makes your mom look like the unreasonable one and may cause other family members to pile on. If your mother reacts that way, they'll know they're getting to her.

The best move is for your mom to refuse to discuss the financial "help" for your aunt and uncle, but to cheerfully engage in conversation otherwise. This shows the old biddy exactly where the bear went in the woods, reinforces your mom's relationship with her, and gets the pressure off without your mom being set up to be the family "bad guy" for asserting some pretty normal boundaries.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

So, when we see people at weddings or at holidays, my wife and I were instructed to not mention that Bill lives at home.

Well, bless you, since you are far more tactful than I could ever be. I would respond to questions about Bill with, " Oh, Bill................well, Bill is still suffering from that awkward "failure to launch" issue, and is well on his way to his forth decade of breast feeding".  Yea, there is no way in hell I would cover for that sorry ass. If he can't put his big boy pants on, and grow the fuck up, the fact that he lives in Mommy's basement is fair game, and the horrified look on the relative's faces as you break the news, well that's just peanut butter icing on that particular cake.

...Don't deliberately participate in stupid family behavior...

I guess if you were  mad at them you could tell your relatives about their failure to launch.  But other than laughing at BIL when he asks you not to leak the news to other relatives, I'm not sure what I'd do personally.  Because I wouldn't actively keep the "secret" but I also don't routinely go around and talk about where my brother or BIL or whatever is living.  I just don't feel the need.  Is his story even important enough to be a topic of casual conversation?   

Although I could easily see the "secret" being leaked if a relative, say, gave me something (like a borrowed book or tool) to return to my parents(in law) and I just say "Just give it to BIL -- he lives with them".

Exactly. We should never go out of our way to spill the beans, and malicious gossip is always inappropriate. But if it comes up in normal conversation, we shouldn't go out of our way to cover it up either, and we definitely shouldn't lie or embroider the truth. Claiming to "not know" is an example of doing that.

[iris lily]

My current employer actually requires people to bring in their degrees and have them copied and put into our employee files.  It's the only instance I've ever heard of an employer checking.

When I served on my university's academic discipline board, we had a case in which a former student was found guilty of forging diplomas and selling them to people who hadn't attended university and had employers like yours.

Wow, I can't believe the b*lls that'd take.  Not the forging, that's not too unbelievable, but to apply to a job as if you had the education for it... Possibly living your whole career as a fraud.  You could gain all the knowledge you needed on the job, because who uses stuff they learned in college at work?  I do VERY minimally.

Was his name Frank Abagnale Jr?

Great movie!

The movie sucked.

The book, now thats the thing!

[Gondolin]

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

And yet, they've gone over 6 years! Hopelessly co-dependent enabler couples like this never seem to break up unless one of them has a life changing epiphany and, given the familial enabling we've been told about, that isn't particularly likely.

In other news, ughhhhhh, reading about these people makes me feel sick.

[MgoSam]

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

And yet, they've gone over 6 years! Hopelessly co-dependent enabler couples like this never seem to break up unless one of them has a life changing epiphany and, given the familial enabling we've been told about, that isn't particularly likely.

In other news, ughhhhhh, reading about these people makes me feel sick.

Not to mention that Jane having run a marathon demonstrates that she, at least, has the capability to pursue a long-term goal.

[CheapScholar]

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

And yet, they've gone over 6 years! Hopelessly co-dependent enabler couples like this never seem to break up unless one of them has a life changing epiphany and, given the familial enabling we've been told about, that isn't particularly likely.

In other news, ughhhhhh, reading about these people makes me feel sick.

Actually, they've been together over a decade now - started dating in college.  They will never permanently break up, although they have probably broken up 500 times for periods ranging from 1 day to 2 months.  Bill has dumped her prior to family weddings because (1) he doesn't want Jane to get angry at him when OTHER people get married and (2) he doesn't want to tell Jane he's telling the family lies about their living situation. It's all just lies lies lies.  Last summer Bill went to one of his best friend's engagement parties (couples party, not bachelor party).  Bill cancelled on Jane last minute for an expensive concert they had planned that night.  So Jane FB posts that she has an extra ticket to the concert because Bill had food poisoning.  My wife and I just have to laugh.

[MgoSam]

To me if a couple can't discuss real life topics like money and planning - then their future might not be very long together.

And yet, they've gone over 6 years! Hopelessly co-dependent enabler couples like this never seem to break up unless one of them has a life changing epiphany and, given the familial enabling we've been told about, that isn't particularly likely.

In other news, ughhhhhh, reading about these people makes me feel sick.

Actually, they've been together over a decade now - started dating in college.  They will never permanently break up, although they have probably broken up 500 times for periods ranging from 1 day to 2 months.  Bill has dumped her prior to family weddings because (1) he doesn't want Jane to get angry at him when OTHER people get married and (2) he doesn't want to tell Jane he's telling the family lies about their living situation. It's all just lies lies lies.  Last summer Bill went to one of his best friend's engagement parties (couples party, not bachelor party).  Bill cancelled on Jane last minute for an expensive concert they had planned that night.  So Jane FB posts that she has an extra ticket to the concert because Bill had food poisoning.  My wife and I just have to laugh.

As pathetic as the situation is, it sounds like they are perfect for each other.

[Gondolin]

Bill has dumped her prior to family weddings because (1) he doesn't want Jane to get angry at him when OTHER people get married and (2) he doesn't want to tell Jane he's telling the family lies about their living situation. It's all just lies lies lies.  Last summer Bill went to one of his best friend's engagement parties (couples party, not bachelor party).  Bill cancelled on Jane last minute for an expensive concert they had planned that night.  So Jane FB posts that she has an extra ticket to the concert because Bill had food poisoning.

I literally can't comprehend how low someone's self esteem would have to be to think this is a 'normal and good' relationship.

[Just Joe]

Let's hope they never procreate! I can't imagine what sort of parenting skills they would have. You seriously ought to suggest they both get snipped/tied/fixed/altered. I genuinely would feel sorry for any child who had to put up with them for 20+ years. 

[CheapScholar]

Let's hope they never procreate! I can't imagine what sort of parenting skills they would have. You seriously ought to suggest they both get snipped/tied/fixed/altered. I genuinely would feel sorry for any child who had to put up with them for 20+ years.

True.  I feel bad for their dog.  They bought the designer dog for a few grand when they were in the apt.  That was nearly 5 years ago.  Now, Jane's parents are stuck taking care of the dog when Jane goes on her many vacations and weekend getaways in the city.  I joke with my wife that the dog will die of old age before Bill and Jane have the down payment for a house.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Let's hope they never procreate! I can't imagine what sort of parenting skills they would have. You seriously ought to suggest they both get snipped/tied/fixed/altered. I genuinely would feel sorry for any child who had to put up with them for 20+ years.

True.  I feel bad for their dog.  They bought the designer dog for a few grand when they were in the apt.  That was nearly 5 years ago.  Now, Jane's parents are stuck taking care of the dog when Jane goes on her many vacations and weekend getaways in the city.  I joke with my wife that the dog will die of old age before Bill and Jane have the down payment for a house.

They should just tell Jane that they're stealing the dog, and that this little designer doggie is now theirs. I did this myself to very good effect.

My daughter wouldn't take care of her puppy after the novelty wore off the first week and she wasn't getting as much attention for her anymore. Basically she treated her puppy the same way her bio-dad treated her: always around for photo ops, but not for the feedings, the teaching, or the providing of anything the doggie needed. She had plenty of money for clothing and manicures for herself, but nothing for her little pup even at Christmas, which she elected to spend elsewhere. She never provided so much as a bite of puppy kibble for her to eat or a single puppy pad for her potty training, and forget toys or vet care. Then when she decided she'd had it with me insisting on her going to school and doing homework, she walked out on her little dog just like her bio-mom walked out on her, and wasn't seen for days.

It's good she paid it forward to an animal and not to a human baby. She moved back in a week later acting like nothing had happened but can you imagine what would have happened if she'd done it to a child? That's how family dysfunction continues. People on the receiving end of an early injustice often just can't rest until they've visited a similar horror on somebody else. It's one of those weird things about human nature I'll probably never understand.

The little doggie had no clue about the big picture or what was going on. But she immediately recognized who was feeding her, teaching her to potty, and playing gently with her. I knew my daughter wasn't going to step up, so I was looking for other homes for the little dog. I told the puppy this after I got off the computer from hitting up the puppy's original family, where the dog's mom and her brother still lived and where the people who gave the pup to my daughter insisted that the dog be returned to them if it didn't work out. Those folks didn't respond, and in the meantime the pup did something weird.

Instead of just looking up at me, the puppy snuggled up and stuck her nose in my ear, and there was just this emotional wave gushing out of that little animal. It's as though she was saying: "I want to be your little doggie. Don't send me away. Make me your pup instead." She basically gave herself to me.

From that point, the venomous little spaz beast grew on me, and I found myself adoring her more every day even as my daughter continued to reject her. So I now have a Chihuahua who is living a very happy and comfortable life. We're very close and go on walks several times a day. I've taught her how to potty properly, to fetch, to walk on a leash, and to dance the hula. But days can go by without my daughter even setting eyes on "her" pup. That little dog is now mine and I couldn't be happier. Although she does tend to piss and shit on my daughter's clothing when she leaves it lying around. The little bitchlet-- and I mean the Chihuahua-- regards my daughter as her subordinate and is making a dominance play. While my daughter is stuck doing homework, I snuggle with this: (see attached image). The dog has grown up a bit since I took the picture but you get the idea.

Seriously. Steal the dog.

[Vindicated]

My parents have no retirement savings, although my Dad expects a reasonable pension in a few years.  He figures that with the pension and SS, they'll be alright on paying bills.  That's fine.

Then he calls me yesterday and asks me to drop by after work to see the car he's thinking about buying, because he's afraid his work truck is going to bite the dust sometime soon.  It's a used Cadillac.

Me: "Are you planning to drive this to work?? (Construction/Concrete)"
Dad: "No, I'll drive your Mom's Hyundai (Elantra)"
Me: "So, the Cadillac is for?"
Dad: "If your Mom needs to go somewhere (She doesn't work)"
Me: "How are you going to afford this?"
Dad: "We'll refinance the Hyundai along with this loan, and our payments will only go up $250/mo (Total $450/mo)"
Me: "So, you're going to raise your payments $250/mo, and your debt to $25k, for a car you don't need?"
Dad: "Your Mom's always wanted a Cadillac"
Me: "Then she should get a job to pay for the Cadillac! (Sounds mean, but she quit working when they really couldn't afford for her to)... Wait, you need a replacement for your work truck, why aren't you looking at small trucks?"
Dad: "That's what I went for initially, but I saw this, and wow it's a pretty car!"
Me: "It is very pretty, but that's $250 each month that could be going to other things"
Dad: "Like what?"
Me: "Savings! Flights to see your Grandchildren in Colorado, College funds, Health costs, just any emergency that might pop up!"
Dad: "Well, we need a new car."
Me: "Not yet, why don't you just put that $250/mo in a savings account, and if/when your truck dies, you can use that savings to buy something with cash?"
Dad: "It is a really pretty car"

I spent an hour or so that evening sending him links to used trucks and cars that were half the cost and similar mileage of the Cadillac.  I also found that the price on the Cadillac was >$1000 over KBB value for buying from a dealer.

He said he was going to see if they would drop the price to match KBB... he's probably going to buy it.  Ugh

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

[RWD]

<truncated, "It is a really pretty car">

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

I don't think you were too harsh. Sounds like quite a waste of money for their situation. Cadillacs aren't even that great of cars anymore. Reliability is pretty poor, for example: http://www.truedelta.com/Cadillac/brand-reliability-Cadillac

[Vindicated]

<truncated, "It is a really pretty car">

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

I don't think you were too harsh. Sounds like quite a waste of money for their situation. Cadillacs aren't even that great of cars anymore. Reliability is pretty poor, for example: http://www.truedelta.com/Cadillac/brand-reliability-Cadillac

Yeah, he also mentioned there would be no warranty.  I asked him how they would pay for repairs, and he said that they wouldn't be driving it often, so it'd be fine.  THEN WHY BUY IT!?!?  *sigh*

[Just Joe]

Nothing wrong with discouraging this sort of behavior. Their problems could otherwise become your problems. Paycheck to paycheck is a young man's game when you are healthy and have no stuff ad can crash on someone's couch.

[Dave1442397]

My parents have no retirement savings, although my Dad expects a reasonable pension in a few years.  He figures that with the pension and SS, they'll be alright on paying bills.  That's fine.

Then he calls me yesterday and asks me to drop by after work to see the car he's thinking about buying, because he's afraid his work truck is going to bite the dust sometime soon.  It's a used Cadillac.

I spent an hour or so that evening sending him links to used trucks and cars that were half the cost and similar mileage of the Cadillac.  I also found that the price on the Cadillac was >$1000 over KBB value for buying from a dealer.

He said he was going to see if they would drop the price to match KBB... he's probably going to buy it.  Ugh

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

If it's a 2008 or 2009 CTS, run away. If it's a 4-wheel drive car, run away no matter what model it is. The CTS forums are riddled with drive shaft failures and crankcase failures costing anywhere from $4500 to $8000 to fix.

I got lucky with my 2010 CTS (rear wheel drive). I've only had to replace the alternator and two wheel bearings in 86k miles.

My FIL, on the other hand, asked me for advice about a few different cars, and then went out and bought a 2008 CTS. It only has 50k miles on it now, and has needed around $7k worth of repairs outside the warranty period. The most recent was the high pressure fuel pump, replaced for almost $800.

My next car will be a Lexus.

[gimp]

OK, it's time to rescue the Scholar. This situation just can't be allowed to exist.

...

If it's OK for Bill and Jane to live in the pimp-in-law's house, eat the pimp-in-law's food, and live at the pimp-in-law's expense as a pair of butthurt basement dwellers, it's OK for other people to mention that it's happening and to perhaps comment on it. If the people involved do something besides swell with pride, then maybe it's time for them to reconsider their role in the situation.

[under his breath] holy shit

[Vindicated]

My parents have no retirement savings, although my Dad expects a reasonable pension in a few years.  He figures that with the pension and SS, they'll be alright on paying bills.  That's fine.

Then he calls me yesterday and asks me to drop by after work to see the car he's thinking about buying, because he's afraid his work truck is going to bite the dust sometime soon.  It's a used Cadillac.

I spent an hour or so that evening sending him links to used trucks and cars that were half the cost and similar mileage of the Cadillac.  I also found that the price on the Cadillac was >$1000 over KBB value for buying from a dealer.

He said he was going to see if they would drop the price to match KBB... he's probably going to buy it.  Ugh

Was I too harsh?  I feel awfully judge-y, but they live barely paycheck-to-paycheck as is.

If it's a 2008 or 2009 CTS, run away. If it's a 4-wheel drive car, run away no matter what model it is. The CTS forums are riddled with drive shaft failures and crankcase failures costing anywhere from $4500 to $8000 to fix.

I got lucky with my 2010 CTS (rear wheel drive). I've only had to replace the alternator and two wheel bearings in 86k miles.

My FIL, on the other hand, asked me for advice about a few different cars, and then went out and bought a 2008 CTS. It only has 50k miles on it now, and has needed around $7k worth of repairs outside the warranty period. The most recent was the high pressure fuel pump, replaced for almost $800.

My next car will be a Lexus.

Woohoo!  He didn't buy the car!

He said he took the car back, and looked at cheaper options.  He couldn't find anything yet, driving lot to lot, so I'm going to help him this weekend.  I told him he just needs to get on Craig's List, but he doesn't know what that is, ofc.  No problem, I'm happy to help!

[Paul der Krake]

The car rental place messed up a couple months ago, so we ended up getting a fully loaded CTS for a week. I cannot speak for the reliability, but it was an awesome car to drive around in. Quiet, very comfortable, luxurious but not too flashy. I felt like a million bucks in that thing. I can totally see how a non-Mustachian would start writing checks.

[FIT_Goat]

Yikes. I think everyone in my family has taken advantage of subsidized family living arrangements at some point, but there was always both an end in sight and a benefit for both parties. For example:

-Cousin gets divorced and needs to get back on her feet. Lives with great-grandma who is starting not to be able to be alone. Both win; no one is taken advantage of.
-I want to save up so I don't go in debt for my masters. Grandpa wants to rent out a room since he's lonely in his house since grandma died. Both win!
-Sister has run up more student debt than she can handle. Rents at my parents' place while she pays things off and does some home renovations for them.
-Brother ends up in a bad living situation. Moves in with husband and me. He pays cheap rent; we benefit from cheap rent and an unlimited supply of board games.
-Another cousin out of work moves into another great-grandma's house and provides end of life care that the entire family appreciates.

I could go on and on. In none of these cases were any of us ashamed or secretive about what we did. Lying and wanting others to lie for you is a good sign what you're doing is wrong.

Yeah, the lies and secrecy is a major bad sign.  I've currently got my MIL living with us.  After my FIL died, she was unhappy living alone.  It's not really financial, she could afford to live on her own, but she wants people around her.  I don't mind her, and my wife is her closest child.  So, it's no big deal.  She does provide some money to cover the increased expenses.  Plus, we moved into a larger house, in part, to have more room for everyone.  Still, it's clear that the house is my wife's and mine.  We could afford it on my salary alone, not even including my wife's income.  We're not relying on her support.  Likewise, she's not reliant on us.  If she wanted, she could afford to move out and get her own place.

It's not a bad arrangement.  LOL, although when people hear that I moved my MIL into my house, they think I am whipped.  There's no hiding.  There's no shame.  It's just an arrangement that works for us.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Yikes. I think everyone in my family has taken advantage of subsidized family living arrangements at some point, but there was always both an end in sight and a benefit for both parties. For example:

-Cousin gets divorced and needs to get back on her feet. Lives with great-grandma who is starting not to be able to be alone. Both win; no one is taken advantage of.
-I want to save up so I don't go in debt for my masters. Grandpa wants to rent out a room since he's lonely in his house since grandma died. Both win!
-Sister has run up more student debt than she can handle. Rents at my parents' place while she pays things off and does some home renovations for them.
-Brother ends up in a bad living situation. Moves in with husband and me. He pays cheap rent; we benefit from cheap rent and an unlimited supply of board games.
-Another cousin out of work moves into another great-grandma's house and provides end of life care that the entire family appreciates.

I could go on and on. In none of these cases were any of us ashamed or secretive about what we did. Lying and wanting others to lie for you is a good sign what you're doing is wrong.

Yeah, the lies and secrecy is a major bad sign.  I've currently got my MIL living with us.  After my FIL died, she was unhappy living alone.  It's not really financial, she could afford to live on her own, but she wants people around her.  I don't mind her, and my wife is her closest child.  So, it's no big deal.  She does provide some money to cover the increased expenses.  Plus, we moved into a larger house, in part, to have more room for everyone.  Still, it's clear that the house is my wife's and mine.  We could afford it on my salary alone, not even including my wife's income.  We're not relying on her support.  Likewise, she's not reliant on us.  If she wanted, she could afford to move out and get her own place.

It's not a bad arrangement.  LOL, although when people hear that I moved my MIL into my house, they think I am whipped.  There's no hiding.  There's no shame.  It's just an arrangement that works for us.

Group living is not shameful, especially when it's "win-win" for everyone involved. Lying to cover up someone else's lies and defective behavior definitely is. Nobody wins and everyone looks and feels stupid.

[Vindicated]

The car rental place messed up a couple months ago, so we ended up getting a fully loaded CTS for a week. I cannot speak for the reliability, but it was an awesome car to drive around in. Quiet, very comfortable, luxurious but not too flashy. I felt like a million bucks in that thing. I can totally see how a non-Mustachian would start writing checks.

Oh yeah, I drove it.  It rode great, and did make you feel like you've "made it".  I could see the temptation.  I'm just glad I've discovered MMM, so I could offer the advice that I did.

[zolotiyeruki]

...
Me: "So, you're going to raise your payments $250/mo, and your debt to $25k, for a car you don't need?"
Dad: "Your Mom's always wanted a Cadillac"
...

Me: "Not yet, why don't you just put that $250/mo in a savings account, and if/when your truck dies, you can use that savings to buy something with cash?"
Dad: "It is a really pretty car"
...

Yeesh, avoiding the question much?

[HairyUpperLip]

.

Cadillac's kinda suck.

They aren't even considered "high-end luxury"  They are a mid-tier luxury brand.

I hope this works out well. If they insist on the car, then try to steer then towards something actually worth having like a Lexus.

[Just Joe]

I'd argue that the Caddy and Lincolns are nice but not that much nicer than an Accord/Camry/Avalon/Fusion/Impala/etc.

Quiet interiors and horsepower are the two biggest differences between our well-aged frugal cars and the newer choices in family sedans.

[LalsConstant]

So my apartment lease is coming up soon and I am currently investigating another rental unit which has one fewer amenities and is a bit smaller.  I did the same thing when my last lease came up and it was one of the best moves I could have made.  I have decided until I am in a position to buy a place to live I am just going to keep doing this.  It is not true minimalism but I discovered there are a lot of benefits to downsizing and purging unnecessary possessions.  I do this thing where I fight viciously to keep my absolute dollar volume spending level the same as it ever was and part of how I do it is I make gradual lifestyle downgrades.  So in 5 years my monthly budget has only gone up $100.

The unit I am considering would be about $100 less per month, which in terms of my goals is huge.  That extra little bit would shave a considerable amount of time off some of my objectives.  I honestly value the money more than the apartment at this point in my life.

Short version is my family members heard about this and expressed I must be insane, did you lose your job, just get a loan if you need money, etc.  Le sigh.

[Joggernot]

So my apartment lease...

I'm impressed with your "name".  Wish I could understand the math...:)