Relatives who just don't get it

[BlueHouse]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

Do a large number of people actually believe that, or do they mostly justify their own needs by blaming it on the deceased?

The sales pitches at funeral homes (i'm sure not all, but definitely the ones I've seen) try to imply that you should spend as much as you can afford, otherwise, you don't love the deceased enough, or you're not showing how much you love.  Remember these things when you choose your options:
1.  Funeral homes are businesses and want to make money. 
2.  Funeral Directors are not clergy.  They are businessmen.   
This is not to say they are bad people.  It's just that their business is used when its customers are the most vulnerable and many already feel guilt over not having done enough of something or other. 

[Jags4186]

Also, you are kind of a captive audience.  If you don't like what the funeral parlor is going to arrange or the prices, what are your options?  Move the body somewhere else?  What if they don't have competitive prices...

[Playing with Fire UK]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

Do a large number of people actually believe that, or do they mostly justify their own needs by blaming it on the deceased?

The sales pitches at funeral homes (i'm sure not all, but definitely the ones I've seen) try to imply that you should spend as much as you can afford, otherwise, you don't love the deceased enough, or you're not showing how much you love.  Remember these things when you choose your options:
1.  Funeral homes are businesses and want to make money. 
2.  Funeral Directors are not clergy.  They are businessmen.   
This is not to say they are bad people.  It's just that their business is used when its customers are the most vulnerable and many already feel guilt over not having done enough of something or other.

This, so much this.

[Playing with Fire UK]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

It is all about keeping up with the Joneses to some people. They'd not want to be caught dead in a funeral less glittery than their neighbours.

You are right Kayvent. Also, I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

If the family want to do a fancy funeral for them then great; but if they think they need to because the deceased needs it then it's unfortunate.

It is all about keeping up with the Joneses to some people. They'd not want to be caught dead in a funeral less glittery than their neighbours.

You are right Kayvent. Also, I just threw up a little in my mouth.

The guest of honor has a very low probability of being caught alive there.

I'd venture to say that it's mostly upselling and pushing from the funeral industrial complex. Very few people want to create a financial burden on their loved ones although they're prepared to accept one if guilted into it.

[sw1tch]

I have a successful friend who gets hit up by his family for money often. For years he would give it. It's been a while since anyone asked because everyone in his family already owes him money now.

Anyway, it took a while (years) but he finally came up with his go-to line when family members call or e-mail with their stories about why they need money: "I'd rather not be involved."

This is the response that I have started to say and will be saying from now on.

[quinnessenceFI]

Mom sent out a family-wide mass text concerning what she wants for Christmas. I have four words for you: holiday themed cloth napkins. When I saw this text, it made me a bit depressed. The woman is in her late forties and has not yet put a single penny toward retirement. When I was on the phone with her later that day, I asked her why this was what she wanted for Christmas. She said in reply: "I'm not a minimalist," and "I thought they would be nice to have." That reasoning wouldn't haunt me at all if her choices only affected her. But that is not (and never has been) the case. I am going to be the one who has to decide whether or not to work for longer in order to save enough money to ensure she doesn't starve in her final years. I am going to have to live with the guilt or burden that follows that decision. She thinks that money is for playing, and that buying stuff is fun and exciting. But her bad money habits have already affected my life, and will continue to do so if she does not change. I apologize for the sad vibe. That's just how I'm feeling about this.

[Kitsune]

Mom sent out a family-wide mass text concerning what she wants for Christmas. I have four words for you: holiday themed cloth napkins. When I saw this text, it made me a bit depressed. The woman is in her late forties and has not yet put a single penny toward retirement. When I was on the phone with her later that day, I asked her why this was what she wanted for Christmas. She said in reply: "I'm not a minimalist," and "I thought they would be nice to have." That reasoning wouldn't haunt me at all if her choices only affected her. But that is not (and never has been) the case. I am going to be the one who has to decide whether or not to work for longer in order to save enough money to ensure she doesn't starve in her final years. I am going to have to live with the guilt or burden that follows that decision. She thinks that money is for playing, and that buying stuff is fun and exciting. But her bad money habits have already affected my life, and will continue to do so if she does not change. I apologize for the sad vibe. That's just how I'm feeling about this.

Yep. Family. One of the reasons I'm aiming for financial independance but not necessarily retirement is that there are people in my family who will need a hand, and I can't personally live with not giving it, so... there you have it. Sigh.

That said, I totally have holiday-themed cloth napkins. Patterns hold up to stains better, and washing saves paper and buying. 8$ of fabric and 2 hours of cutting/ironing/sewing and there you have it: 8 napkins. It doesn't have to be expensive!

[AlanStache]

Mom sent out a family-wide mass text concerning what she wants for Christmas. I have four words for you: holiday themed cloth napkins. When I saw this text, it made me a bit depressed. The woman is in her late forties and has not yet put a single penny toward retirement. When I was on the phone with her later that day, I asked her why this was what she wanted for Christmas. She said in reply: "I'm not a minimalist," and "I thought they would be nice to have." That reasoning wouldn't haunt me at all if her choices only affected her. But that is not (and never has been) the case. I am going to be the one who has to decide whether or not to work for longer in order to save enough money to ensure she doesn't starve in her final years. I am going to have to live with the guilt or burden that follows that decision. She thinks that money is for playing, and that buying stuff is fun and exciting. But her bad money habits have already affected my life, and will continue to do so if she does not change. I apologize for the sad vibe. That's just how I'm feeling about this.

Welcome!

How much have you talked about future planing with your mom?  This sort of depends on your relative stations in life, are there any relatives or family friends that could help nudge her in the saving direction if taking financial advice from you would not be easy?  YOU know this wont go away on its own and YOU need to be proactive as much as you can.  It sucks (I very personally know), but you may have to choose between a shit choice and a horrible choice in X years. 

"I am not a minimalist", very related to the "I am a car guy" and "I like fashion" as if this makes blowing 1k$ on crap a necessity. 

[MgoSam]

We had a family member stay last night who, after a couple of hours and a couple of drinks, asked me an odd question.

Him: So... is this your furniture?
Me: ಠ_ಠ
Him: Oh I just wondered if you were renting it, because it's all really nice stuff.

I just laughed.

In the room he was admiring, five out seven pieces were from eBay, the sixth was floor stock, and the seventh was Ikea.

Also, who rents furniture?

I was at a ridiculous high end furniture store with a friend the other day and I saw dining room chairs that were $1500+.  It looked like small square tube frame holding a simple square (leather) cushion.

$1500.

EACH.

It made me want to start making furniture...

I recommend you doing so. You may discover that you enjoy doing it and thus have found a very productive hobby as you can sell the items you make and you might find yourself to be amazing at it. Years from now, you may look back on this moment and realize that it was MgoSam that gave you the encouragement you needed and you will reward that swell guy with some few custom-made furniture!

[Papa Mustache]

The Hallmark Card Metric...

This may or may not be the right thread but does any else's family wait until Thanksgiving to bring out all the family dysfunction? We have had all year to discuss whatever needs a tuneup...

"Since we have you here to share a nice meal... Let's hash over any rough edges our relationships might have had the past 12 months." That way we can all look rested and happy for the Christmas pictures in four weeks...

We finally gathered this past weekend for the Thanksgiving meal. DW and I sensed that things were tense when we walked in the door. We can tell when something is bothering my parents. They are tense and quiet. First chit-chat (the living room interview), then dinner, and then let's drag out a list of unhappy topics to kick around until the topics are very dead...

This has happened before to DW and I. 

In short this year my out of state sister thinks I hate her b/c I don't call enough (she call doesn't either) or make efforts to drive several states away to spend time with her (she doesn't either). For 20 years we lived near-ish each other but sister and family were always "busy" whenever we suggested something. She's been to our house twice in two decades since DW and I married.

Sister moves family out of state and gets homesick. DW and I expected that. We did not expect to be taking flack for her unhappiness.

The "conversation" lasted over an hour and more less said it is my fault (and DW’s) for not going out of our way to spend time with her, call her and to make sure there was a card (and implied money) for every occasion in a year's time - more or less. All the religious holidays (DW and I aren't particularly religious), all the birthdays, all the other holidays - there ought to be an endless stream of cards going to sister's house.

Never mind what our objections (if we had any) might be. The only valid answer was their answer. That applies to every “conversation” we have ever had. I’m not allowed to object. I’m also not allowed to “give up” b/c - family. Ideally I would coo and sing to her as much as they do.

It felt like arguing with Red Forman or apologizing to a bully for not having any lunch money that day. (I did not apologize for anything).

My sister has always been favored by our parents and I’ve made peace with that. They are all very similar in personality and motivations.

DW and I have taken a different route that was less spendypants and we didn’t lecture anyone about it.

She’s always gotten plenty of advantages from the parents and “worked harder than any other person in the history of the family.” (My words, their implication). We'll ignore any accomplishments by DW and I: two well-adjusted mannered creative kids, my self-funded engineering degree while working (sister got a free ride), DW’s multiple Master’s degrees that we funded, my enlistment in the military, living overseas for several years alone, always living in a different town i.e. no easy family help, etc.

All sorts of revisionist history was then spilled on the conversation by my parents – its their secret weapon. Should the conversation falter, turn it into a debate, apply revisions to win...

Thanks, just needed to unload.

[mm1970]

The Hallmark Card Metric...

This may or may not be the right thread but does any else's family wait until Thanksgiving to bring out all the family dysfunction? We have had all year to discuss whatever needs a tuneup...

"Since we have you here to share a nice meal... Let's hash over any rough edges our relationships might have had the past 12 months." That way we can all look rested and happy for the Christmas pictures in four weeks...

We finally gathered this past weekend for the Thanksgiving meal. DW and I sensed that things were tense when we walked in the door. We can tell when something is bothering my parents. They are tense and quiet. First chit-chat (the living room interview), then dinner, and then let's drag out a list of unhappy topics to kick around until the topics are very dead...

This has happened before to DW and I. 

In short this year my out of state sister thinks I hate her b/c I don't call enough (she call doesn't either) or make efforts to drive several states away to spend time with her (she doesn't either). For 20 years we lived near-ish each other but sister and family were always "busy" whenever we suggested something. She's been to our house twice in two decades since DW and I married.

Sister moves family out of state and gets homesick. DW and I expected that. We did not expect to be taking flack for her unhappiness.

The "conversation" lasted over an hour and more less said it is my fault (and DW’s) for not going out of our way to spend time with her, call her and to make sure there was a card (and implied money) for every occasion in a year's time - more or less. All the religious holidays (DW and I aren't particularly religious), all the birthdays, all the other holidays - there ought to be an endless stream of cards going to sister's house.

Never mind what our objections (if we had any) might be. The only valid answer was their answer. That applies to every “conversation” we have ever had. I’m not allowed to object. I’m also not allowed to “give up” b/c - family. Ideally I would coo and sing to her as much as they do.

It felt like arguing with Red Forman or apologizing to a bully for not having any lunch money that day. (I did not apologize for anything).

My sister has always been favored by our parents and I’ve made peace with that. They are all very similar in personality and motivations.

DW and I have taken a different route that was less spendypants and we didn’t lecture anyone about it.

She’s always gotten plenty of advantages from the parents and “worked harder than any other person in the history of the family.” (My words, their implication). We'll ignore any accomplishments by DW and I: two well-adjusted mannered creative kids, my self-funded engineering degree while working (sister got a free ride), DW’s multiple Master’s degrees that we funded, my enlistment in the military, living overseas for several years alone, always living in a different town i.e. no easy family help, etc.

All sorts of revisionist history was then spilled on the conversation by my parents – its their secret weapon. Should the conversation falter, turn it into a debate, apply revisions to win...

Thanks, just needed to unload.

I'm sorry about that, but you just have to shrug.  I've been in relationships like that before, that are "one-sided".  Some of them I gave up - I cannot be the *only* person trying to connect and make plans. Likewise, I've sadly watched friendships drift away because I never took time to nurture them.  (In my defense, I was in the throes of young parenthood with a full time job, and some of these friendships were also people with kids - but they either worked part time or not at all, and thus would get together during my work hours.)

My mother divorced my dad when I was a teen, and she had angst about it.  She was very often "revising history" in her head because she wanted things to be FAIR.  I didn't care about fair.

She helped me a lot, emotionally, to get through college.  She sent me care packages of mac and cheese, soup, and ramen.  She would drive two hours a few times a year to pick me up and bring me home on the weekend.  She hosted multiple college friends who lived further away - in our little trailer.  If she hadn't divorced my dad I probably never would have gone to college.

But man, later in life she talked about how she paid a certain amount for my wedding, the same as my sister and brother.  And she didn't.  What she did was pay for my sister's and my brother's hotel room and food (basically a paid vacation) when they attended my wedding.  Maybe I'm a stickler for accuracy, but I didn't let her get away with it.  Frankly though, when she'd talk about the money she gave them and look guiltily at me I'd tell her that I don't care, and I don't need the money.

My sister would get upset when my mother started small college funds for her 3 other grandchildren, but not my son ($10 a month each).  I told my sister that I didn't care, because I don't need the money. 

Seriously, my mom is long gone, but I don't know if my family REALLY understands the bond we had, and how the willingness to leave a bad marriage set me on my path.

[I'm a red panda]

Wow- I had no idea cremation was so expensive. It must be simpler with an infant, because I paid $100, including an urn when I had a stillborn.


So- on topic for this thread, how much do guns cost? Because my perpetually broke (but working good jobs, so maybe they aren't anymore, but just in the complain about it still mindset?) just posted two brand new handguns on facebook.

[By the River]

The Hallmark Card Metric...

This may or may not be the right thread but does any else's family wait until Thanksgiving to bring out all the family dysfunction? We have had all year to discuss whatever needs a tuneup...

"Since we have you here to share a nice meal... Let's hash over any rough edges our relationships might have had the past 12 months." That way we can all look rested and happy for the Christmas pictures in four weeks...

That shouldn't have been this past weekend, that should wait until December 23, Festivus Day.   You always start with the Airing of Grievances.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7-jcsB_WQ 


   

[firelight]

The Hallmark Card Metric...

This may or may not be the right thread but does any else's family wait until Thanksgiving to bring out all the family dysfunction? We have had all year to discuss whatever needs a tuneup...

"Since we have you here to share a nice meal... Let's hash over any rough edges our relationships might have had the past 12 months." That way we can all look rested and happy for the Christmas pictures in four weeks...

That shouldn't have been this past weekend, that should wait until December 23, Festivus Day.   You always start with the Airing of Grievances.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7-jcsB_WQ 


   

My response to such griping and whining has always been, "you're welcome to come home/call/send cards anytime. I'd love to hear from you. Do it for a year and maybe it'll rub off on me too". But sorry you have to go through this stuff during holidays.

With regard to sibling favoring, I just count the blessings I've had and stop listening to crap anyone says. And any conversation that involves such is promptly ended with 'so be it. Good for him/her/them but it's not my cup of tea'. I've ticked off my mom too many times when she compares me with everyone she knows with this reply.

[Papa Mustache]

HEY - I like that By the River!

Never watched Seinfeld except for a couple of random episodes. Have been working my way through the other long lived shows on the streaming services. Not gotten to Seinfeld yet. TV season is upon us. (dark, cold, wet outside)

Thanks for the encouragement Firelight. Am hoping we're done for this year. ;) Couple upsides: our kids got to hear the conversation and begin growing their own thick skins. And we felt confident in our position enough to defend ourselves rather than take a peace-maker position.

[MgoSam]

The Hallmark Card Metric...

This may or may not be the right thread but does any else's family wait until Thanksgiving to bring out all the family dysfunction? We have had all year to discuss whatever needs a tuneup...

"Since we have you here to share a nice meal... Let's hash over any rough edges our relationships might have had the past 12 months." That way we can all look rested and happy for the Christmas pictures in four weeks...

That shouldn't have been this past weekend, that should wait until December 23, Festivus Day.   You always start with the Airing of Grievances.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7-jcsB_WQ 

I'm going to a Festivus party this year, so looking forward to it!

[mtn]

Wow- I had no idea cremation was so expensive. It must be simpler with an infant, because I paid $100, including an urn when I had a stillborn.


So- on topic for this thread, how much do guns cost? Because my perpetually broke (but working good jobs, so maybe they aren't anymore, but just in the complain about it still mindset?) just posted two brand new handguns on facebook.

Typically it isn't crazy--anywhere from $250 on up, typically. It is the ammo that will make the hobby un-affordable.

[Papa Mustache]

Depends on what you buy. A friend showed me an auction for a M1911 military issue .45 cal pistol. It was a $1000.

I'd say between those two extremes $250 and $1000.

[BDWW]

Depends on what you buy. A friend showed me an auction for a M1911 military issue .45 cal pistol. It was a $1000.

I'd say between those two extremes $250 and $1000.

Pretty close perhaps $150 to $1800, anything in the $150-250 range is very cheap and potentially unsafe. Hi Point is a notoriously cheap pistol manufacturer with a dubious safety record. I know you can buy a new one for ~$160.
On the high end, (obviously the sky is the limit if you want it to be), but tangible benefits in quality top at around the ~$1500 range(Say a nice Kimber 1911).

Like anything, it's a case by case basis, but rule of thumb for me would be about $600 for a decent pistol.

[I'm a red panda]

I'm guessing what they bought is on the lower end.  But $250 is a lot based on what they suggest for other things.  They wanted a $10 cap on our adult secret santa gift exchange last year.  For $10, all anyone is getting is junk.

[Goldielocks]

Funeral insurance? I would imagine this to be like a hybrid of life insurance and prepaid funeral plans. Is my guess close?

No, it is not a life insurance. But the funeral can quickly be payed for. Normally the deceased pays for her/himself from the leftover money. But it can take a while before the relatives can claim that money. They would probably have to pay the bill first and get it back a month or to later, is my guess.
In my opinion this is a ridiculous product.

This is similar to what is called a "paid up whole life insurance policy" here...   you can pre pay using installments or lump sum to have money paid out quickly when you die.   Many do it for paying taxes or providing a small amount immediately to relatives upon your death, for things like funeral expenses.

Some funeral homes have a pre-pay option, too, and you design and prepay your own funeral costs in advance (a bit morbid, but apparently satisfying activity for some people).

An alternate solution is a joint account or a beneficiary designated account, to have money immediately available to someone else on your death, without needing the will and probate / executor process.

[MgoSam]

They wanted a $10 cap on our adult secret santa gift exchange last year.  For $10, all anyone is getting is junk.

I'm guessing gift certificates are frowned upon so with low dollar amounts like this I will usually buy a book that I think others may enjoy (bonus points if it's a book they likely would never get on their own) or a some small gifts that add up to roughly $10.

[Goldielocks]

Joe Lucky --

A suggestion -- you can be agreeable to the suggestions about cards and contact for holidays, in person, but I would set up a family facebook account SPECIFICALLY to send congratulatory notes to your sister (and family) on the holidays...   and stick to paper cards for Christmas, birthday and graduation only, with or without money...  Post the occasional family photo to this facebook account, and look like you are actively interested in their posts with a few likes and comments.   It is amazing how little effort it takes to make everyone feel like you are connecting, and only you will realize how superficial that is.   If they are not yet on facebook, then get them on, referring back to the thanksgiving conversation about connecting with family more...

As others suggested, I would just keep inviting (maybe via facebook for all to see?) your sister to visit you..   e.g., "congrats on those valentine's day cookies you made... do you want to come visit us to celebrate St. Patricks day on Tuesday next week?"   ad nauseum, and using invitations for awkward dates and non statuary holidays.

In fact, that may be all that they want...

MMM1970

"My mother divorced my dad when I was a teen, and she had angst about it.  She was very often "revising history" in her head because she wanted things to be FAIR.  I didn't care about fair.
.....
But man, later in life she talked about how she paid a certain amount for my wedding, the same as my sister and brother.  And she didn't. "

I can truly relate to this, (in fact, specifically about the wedding... in my case, the in laws were remembering what someone NOT them gave us towards wedding costs, and thought that was what they gave.. to justify paying for SIL's much more expensive wedding in full) and realize it is just human nature.   I finally asked the person(s) doing this to just stop talking about it, and put their money wherever they like, because it made me upset over details and I truly did not care (as much) about the money as about time spent together...  fifteen years later and that made a huge difference in our relationship.

[Playing with Fire UK]

They wanted a $10 cap on our adult secret santa gift exchange last year.  For $10, all anyone is getting is junk.

I'm guessing gift certificates are frowned upon so with low dollar amounts like this I will usually buy a book that I think others may enjoy (bonus points if it's a book they likely would never get on their own) or a some small gifts that add up to roughly $10.

Wine, people are getting wine. Maybe with a penny taped to the bottom, just so it's the full $10.

[Carless]

The Hallmark Card Metric...
... make sure there was a card (and implied money) for every occasion in a year's time - more or less. All the religious holidays (DW and I aren't particularly religious), all the birthdays, all the other holidays - there ought to be an endless stream of cards going to sister's house. ...

It costs a bit of money, but one thing you can do is set up electronic cards.  You could just sit down and batch them all up with a schedule for mailing-never forget a birthday again!

Alternatively, send her a card and a cheque.  ONCE.  If you don't get a nice thank you, then never repeat.  If mom brings it up, just say 'I'm still waiting for the thank you note from the last gift'.  Or you could try this with a plain card.  If you don't get a response, then don't repeat.

Maybe Captain Awkward has some more suggestions?  You could preemptively prepare for further Airing of Grievances.  Some family members are best approached with a well stocked verbal arsenal.

[shelivesthedream]

The Hallmark Card Metric...
... make sure there was a card (and implied money) for every occasion in a year's time - more or less. All the religious holidays (DW and I aren't particularly religious), all the birthdays, all the other holidays - there ought to be an endless stream of cards going to sister's house. ...

It costs a bit of money, but one thing you can do is set up electronic cards.  You could just sit down and batch them all up with a schedule for mailing-never forget a birthday again!

Alternatively, send her a card and a cheque.  ONCE.  If you don't get a nice thank you, then never repeat.  If mom brings it up, just say 'I'm still waiting for the thank you note from the last gift'.  Or you could try this with a plain card.  If you don't get a response, then don't repeat.

Maybe Captain Awkward has some more suggestions?  You could preemptively prepare for further Airing of Grievances.  Some family members are best approached with a well stocked verbal arsenal.

YES. Please write in to Captain Awkward about this! And then come bak and post the link here if it's published!

[Papa Mustache]

I'm guessing what they bought is on the lower end.  But $250 is a lot based on what they suggest for other things.  They wanted a $10 cap on our adult secret santa gift exchange last year.  For $10, all anyone is getting is junk.

No thanks on the junk. We self generate junk without trying... ;)

Put those ten dollar bills collectively towards nice wine to share together or something everyone can enjoy collectively. Steaks grilled at the gathering?

I have seen some very funny and creative $10 gifts but sometimes there was extra effort made by the giver to customize them with artwork or via a hot glue gun.

Thanks everyone on the dysfunction suggestions. I'm going to make use of them. Not sure I want to be on Facebook but it might be worth it to "fix" this problem.

It is a more important situation to the sister and parents b/c I'm just past caring enough to be hurt. Once upon a time I envied those families (the TV Walton's? HAHA) that like to get together and "play" and enjoy each other's easy company but its an idea that DW and I gave up on long ago.

Parents and sibling have such a high expectation of everyone that its a buzz kill. Who wants to sign up for that? Closer you get to them the more opportunities they have to be critical of even little things and it just isn't worth it. Keeping them all at arm's length seems to work well. Not very emotionally satisfying but who cares? Small conversation and occasional visits and we're good until it all crumbles like last weekend and needs to be rebuilt.

[I'm a red panda]

I'm guessing what they bought is on the lower end.  But $250 is a lot based on what they suggest for other things.  They wanted a $10 cap on our adult secret santa gift exchange last year.  For $10, all anyone is getting is junk.

No thanks on the junk. We self generate junk without trying... ;)

Which is why I am vehemently opposed to gift exchanges at all.  I don't want the crap you bought for $10 without in anyway thinking of it I enjoyed it.  I don't drink (though that hasn't stopped MIL from getting me alcohol related gifts in the past... usually I just get shower gel, which I also don't use) so wine is out for me.  My BIL is an alcoholic, so while he'd love to get some, I'm not buying it for him.  There is no gathering, when I used to play along, we mailed our gifts- it cost about as much to mail them as to buy them if I didn't find something on amazon; since I often make things, the shipping can get expensive- and the time is worth way more than the $10 of crap I get sent in return. 

One year we all did gift cards.  WTF is the point of that? Why should I give you $10 and you give me $10 in exchange?  Especially if it is $10 to a store I don't go to often (DH's useful gas card was to a station we don't have here.)  Why can't we all just keep our freaking $10?

But the point in the dollar limit here was they don't have money for this, their own kids presents, groceries, gas, new clothes, school supplies, whatever the whine of the day is, but apparently plenty for a spur of the moment gun purchase.

[Cassie]

Joe, that sounds like an awful holiday. So sorry your entire family had to go through that.  I think I would be spending less holidays with them.  I never understood favoring one kid over the other. I have 3 and love them all.

[Papa Mustache]

Thanks Cassie.

We were kind of bent out of shape about on the drive home. A long drive of "can you believe that?".

DW and I talked some more the next day and felt alot better knowing we were on the same page about everything.

I think we're both just tired of it and thus "over it".

For a long time our energy was invested in an effort to understand the family dynamics that seemed a little "off" compared to what I knew of other families like DW's. They aren't perfect either but they do a better job of laughing together. 

Once upon a time we had a brief idea of "fixing it" but we realized it wasn't going to change for the better.

So DW and the kids and I will just find happiness in doing our own thing. We're well practiced at that anyhow.

As always sharing our "WTF" moment here was cathartic. SO many people here have it alot of worse.

I kind of wish I hadn't shared it b/c it seems so melodramatic now several days later. Hopefully someday someone else will read these MMM threads and realize that they aren't alone.

We are all a tribe of rational people in an irrational world.

[MgoSam]

One year we all did gift cards.  WTF is the point of that? Why should I give you $10 and you give me $10 in exchange?  Especially if it is $10 to a store I don't go to often (DH's useful gas card was to a station we don't have here.)  Why can't we all just keep our freaking $10?

Gift giving in general is a concept that makes absolutely no sense to me. I remember a friend of mine in college wanting to buy a $20 book, and at the time I also wanted something that cost around $20 but since it was close to Christmas she insisted that we buy the book for each other as a gift (or maybe I wanted to do this, I had some crazy ideas in college).

Exchanging $10 gift cards (to place like Amazon that are as good as cash to me) might be the only sensible idea out there. I mean, the greatest utility I can get out of $10 is generally $10. The concept of buying something for $10 implies that you get greater utility out of the product than you do out of the $10 (opportunity cost). Well I know what I can get utility out of, but I don't know what you or anyone else can. The only times I have been good at gift giving is when I either give the person a gift they would never have thought of, or I give them something that shows I've been listening or caring. The only exception to this rule I can think of is a gift that the person would never buy for themselves. For instance, a few years ago my sister bought my mom a package of massages because my mom will never buy one for herself. There's a topic on here where the OP writes about her husband wanting $11 bars of soap.

[With This Herring]

*snip*  You could preemptively prepare for further Airing of Grievances.  Some family members are best approached with a well stocked verbal arsenal.

What about bringing actual popcorn to the next one?  As they wind up, you pull out the popcorn and start munching.  If they give you odd looks, say "What?  I'm preparing for the show."

[Linea_Norway]

One year we all did gift cards.  WTF is the point of that? Why should I give you $10 and you give me $10 in exchange?  Especially if it is $10 to a store I don't go to often (DH's useful gas card was to a station we don't have here.)  Why can't we all just keep our freaking $10?

My mother has been giving me 50 euros for Christmas and birthday for years, while I really don't have a money problem. When some years ago even my younger brother started giving me money as a Christmas present, I suggested that we adults should stop giving each other presents. It is indeed pointless handing over money or gift cards to each other. Not buying gifts also reduces the stress for Christmas shopping. Now we only give gifts to my brother's 2 children.

With my in-laws we still give each other gifts. But at least we ask each other if their is anything we want to have. Then at least you don't get anything pointless. Although FIL insists on buying me thick paper books, while I have been an avid Kindle reader for many years. But he doesn't like the fact that you can't put an e-book on the Christmas tree...

[Kansas Terri]

My mom called a week ago and invited us to Easter at her house with my immediate family. I respectfully declined due to my wife having to work every night this weekend and wanting to celebrate at home.

She got mad. "Easter is a family holiday. You have a beautiful baby and you should want to dress him up, take him out, and show him off!"

I bit my tongue but I wanted to say "That's why you're always broke. Trying to show off by dressing up in new clothes, shoes, purses, and buying dumb shit!" Basically, she thinks we should want to do what she always did.

I can't understand how people pay so much money to buy little baby outfits. They are just going to wear it once. My coworkers were cooing over a photo of one of their babies in an Easter tie. Ties are stupid in the first place. But what does your 4 month old need a tie for?

Because it is part of the fun in life, and life SHOULD be enjoyed. Showing off a baby can (and should) be a very big deal!

I generally had ONE cute outfit for a baby. I bought my son's at a yard sale for 50 cents and it still had the price tag still on it: kids grow SO fast!

Babies SHOULD be enjoyed!

I am a nurse, and while your Mom might not understand about working the holidays I do. Sick people need care regardless of what the calendar says, and employers must be satisfied. I am sorry she does not understand that

[Papa Mustache]

Someone here at the MMM forums already said it: We've gotten to a point of equilibrium regarding stuff. We don't need stuff. Don't want much stuff. Don't want to trade gift cards.

If stuff doesn't add something to our life, it becomes a bother b/c it needs to be stored or shifted or cleaned.

Let's save the money and do something else with it we would never otherwise do.

This is that point where more money doesn't deliver any more happiness b/c a person can only buy so much (ordinary) stuff. Not rich enough for spectacular traveling but rich enough to own enough stuff.

I'd rather save up and make our house nicer or pay someone with experience to speed through some renovation task it would take us five times longer to do.

[Helvegen]

My mother just won't stop buying shit she can't afford. Now she has to work two jobs at nearly 60 to maintain a lifestyle that makes no sense for a single woman. She bought a giant house last year that is nearly twice the size of the one that we rent. Her gas guzzling SUV died, so instead of seeing this as an opportunity to downsize to a more suitable car, she goes out and buys another expensive to maintain SUV. She got raked over the coals for it at the stealership. I can't find anywhere where anyone was charging as much as this particular dealer was for the car. It was $2000 more than the highest dealer ad I saw for the same year/make/model/trim. Her credit is junk, so I'm sure the interest rate and loan term is through the roof. She was whining to me about how much it sucks to have to have this payment BUT WHAT WERE HER OTHER CHOICES?

Meanwhile, my grandmother had to buy her another hot water heater because she can't afford even the most basic maintenance on her monstrosity of a house even with two jobs. Can you imagine being nearly 60 and still being financially dependent on your mommy simply because you won't suck it up and live within your means?

A Costco recently opened up near her house, so I bought her a membership for her birthday a few months ago along with some Costco Cash so that she would have access to things like the cheap gas, optical center, etc. She just now went down there. She showed me what she bought, and to her credit, nothing seemed 'stupid'. Thank god for minor miracles, I suppose. Then I said, that was great, but make sure you use Costco for things like the gas and optical. She then said that she couldn't afford glasses and was using a magnifying glass to read everything. @_@ But I suppose it is worth it so that your pets have their own room in your house.

It is Christmas, so I will send her some more Costco Cash and hope she has sense enough to buy some glasses with it before she ends up in a ditch somewhere.

[With This Herring]

My mother just won't stop buying shit she can't afford. Now she has to work two jobs at nearly 60 to maintain a lifestyle that makes no sense for a single woman. She bought a giant house last year that is nearly twice the size of the one that we rent. Her gas guzzling SUV died, so instead of seeing this as an opportunity to downsize to a more suitable car, she goes out and buys another expensive to maintain SUV. She got raked over the coals for it at the stealership. I can't find anywhere where anyone was charging as much as this particular dealer was for the car. It was $2000 more than the highest dealer ad I saw for the same year/make/model/trim. Her credit is junk, so I'm sure the interest rate and loan term is through the roof. She was whining to me about how much it sucks to have to have this payment BUT WHAT WERE HER OTHER CHOICES?

Meanwhile, my grandmother had to buy her another hot water heater because she can't afford even the most basic maintenance on her monstrosity of a house even with two jobs. Can you imagine being nearly 60 and still being financially dependent on your mommy simply because you won't suck it up and live within your means?

A Costco recently opened up near her house, so I bought her a membership for her birthday a few months ago along with some Costco Cash so that she would have access to things like the cheap gas, optical center, etc. She just now went down there. She showed me what she bought, and to her credit, nothing seemed 'stupid'. Thank god for minor miracles, I suppose. Then I said, that was great, but make sure you use Costco for things like the gas and optical. She then said that she couldn't afford glasses and was using a magnifying glass to read everything. @_@ But I suppose it is worth it so that your pets have their own room in your house.

It is Christmas, so I will send her some more Costco Cash and hope she has sense enough to buy some glasses with it before she ends up in a ditch somewhere.

Well, that's upsetting.  Do you live close enough to go visit?  I would think your best bet would be to give her a Christmas "coupon" for a morning out with you to have a nice lunch and get her Costco eyeglasses.  That will make sure she actually ends up with eyeglasses...

[Lanthiriel]

My mother just won't stop buying shit she can't afford. Now she has to work two jobs at nearly 60 to maintain a lifestyle that makes no sense for a single woman. She bought a giant house last year that is nearly twice the size of the one that we rent. Her gas guzzling SUV died, so instead of seeing this as an opportunity to downsize to a more suitable car, she goes out and buys another expensive to maintain SUV. She got raked over the coals for it at the stealership. I can't find anywhere where anyone was charging as much as this particular dealer was for the car. It was $2000 more than the highest dealer ad I saw for the same year/make/model/trim. Her credit is junk, so I'm sure the interest rate and loan term is through the roof. She was whining to me about how much it sucks to have to have this payment BUT WHAT WERE HER OTHER CHOICES?

Meanwhile, my grandmother had to buy her another hot water heater because she can't afford even the most basic maintenance on her monstrosity of a house even with two jobs. Can you imagine being nearly 60 and still being financially dependent on your mommy simply because you won't suck it up and live within your means?

A Costco recently opened up near her house, so I bought her a membership for her birthday a few months ago along with some Costco Cash so that she would have access to things like the cheap gas, optical center, etc. She just now went down there. She showed me what she bought, and to her credit, nothing seemed 'stupid'. Thank god for minor miracles, I suppose. Then I said, that was great, but make sure you use Costco for things like the gas and optical. She then said that she couldn't afford glasses and was using a magnifying glass to read everything. @_@ But I suppose it is worth it so that your pets have their own room in your house.

It is Christmas, so I will send her some more Costco Cash and hope she has sense enough to buy some glasses with it before she ends up in a ditch somewhere.

We might have the same mom. I feel for you. It just gets scarier as they get older.

[Primm]

Wow- I had no idea cremation was so expensive. It must be simpler with an infant, because I paid $100, including an urn when I had a stillborn.

Sorry to hear about your baby. I don't know how long ago it was, but the grief around that sort of thing has no time limits.

I work in NICU so deal with this a lot, and it's not uncommon for the funeral directors around here to basically do a "freebie" for stillbirths and babies who die soon after, along with keeping the baby for as long as it takes until the parents are ready. You may have been a beneficiary of the same sort of goodwill.

[HairyUpperLip]

I work in NICU

Must be rough. I appreciate what you do!

[Bumperpuff]

Someone here at the MMM forums already said it: We've gotten to a point of equilibrium regarding stuff. We don't need stuff. Don't want much stuff. Don't want to trade gift cards.

If stuff doesn't add something to our life, it becomes a bother b/c it needs to be stored or shifted or cleaned.

Let's save the money and do something else with it we would never otherwise do.

This is that point where more money doesn't deliver any more happiness b/c a person can only buy so much (ordinary) stuff. Not rich enough for spectacular traveling but rich enough to own enough stuff.

I'd rather save up and make our house nicer or pay someone with experience to speed through some renovation task it would take us five times longer to do.

My preferred gifts, to both give and receive, are homemade consumables and items the recipient can't get themselves. I give my family and friends homemade meads, wines, jams, and baked goods and have received homemade bacon, canned goods, and fruit cakes. This allows everyone to give a present that costs them very little, but is of great value to the recipient. The wonders of economics and trade 🙂

[Milkman666]

Brother In Law (BIL): Hey, did you see my new truck? I got a diesel!

Me: No, I didn't notice.

BIL: Got it for $2500. I had to put 4 new tires on it, and it needs transmission lines, brakes and a muffler.

Me: What did you do with your old truck?

BIL: I still have it. It's a good truck.

This conversation took place at a family Christmas party after I had to bring veggie trays in addition to the tourtieres (meat pies) I brought because BIL and SIL couldn't afford to after another guest had to decline.

[KodeBlue]

My preferred gifts, to both give and receive, are homemade consumables and items the recipient can't get themselves. I give my family and friends homemade meads, wines, jams, and baked goods and have received homemade bacon, canned goods, and fruit cakes. This allows everyone to give a present that costs them very little, but is of great value to the recipient. The wonders of economics and trade 🙂

Wish I was on your gift list! I think I appreciate homemade goodies more, not just cuz I like to eat (who doesn't?) but I know the giver spent thier own time and effort to make it. Much more meaning.

[ysette9]

We have been moving to token gifts (box of See'a) and experiences like nights at a hotel, symphony tickets, and museum passes. I mostly hate stuff but experiences are great and don't take up space.

[Bumperpuff]

My preferred gifts, to both give and receive, are homemade consumables and items the recipient can't get themselves. I give my family and friends homemade meads, wines, jams, and baked goods and have received homemade bacon, canned goods, and fruit cakes. This allows everyone to give a present that costs them very little, but is of great value to the recipient. The wonders of economics and trade 🙂

Wish I was on your gift list! I think I appreciate homemade goodies more, not just cuz I like to eat (who doesn't?) but I know the giver spent thier own time and effort to make it. Much more meaning.

To be fair, I buy stuff too.  While in Peace Corps I bought spear points (they make great letter openers), local clay pottery, and baskets to give to family members and friends.  These items only cost me about $1 each, kept the money local, and were unobtainable or prohibitively expensive in the US.  This year my sister is receiving a somewhat spendy piece of art created by a friend of mine, but I know she wants it because she specified the subject and color scheme of the piece.  I also forgot to get her anything a couple years ago, so it sort of balances out.

[JLee]

Brother In Law (BIL): Hey, did you see my new truck? I got a diesel!

Me: No, I didn't notice.

BIL: Got it for $2500. I had to put 4 new tires on it, and it needs transmission lines, brakes and a muffler.

Me: What did you do with your old truck?

BIL: I still have it. It's a good truck.

This conversation took place at a family Christmas party after I had to bring veggie trays in addition to the tourtieres (meat pies) I brought because BIL and SIL couldn't afford to after another guest had to decline.

That's actually ridiculously cheap if it's a remotely modern diesel truck.  He might be able to flip it for a decent profit.

[mtn]

Brother In Law (BIL): Hey, did you see my new truck? I got a diesel!

Me: No, I didn't notice.

BIL: Got it for $2500. I had to put 4 new tires on it, and it needs transmission lines, brakes and a muffler.

Me: What did you do with your old truck?

BIL: I still have it. It's a good truck.

This conversation took place at a family Christmas party after I had to bring veggie trays in addition to the tourtieres (meat pies) I brought because BIL and SIL couldn't afford to after another guest had to decline.

That's actually ridiculously cheap if it's a remotely modern diesel truck.  He might be able to flip it for a decent profit.

Yeah, I'm trying to think of a modernish diesel truck that is worth that little--brakes and mufflers are typically cheap and easy fixes for a modestly competent DIYer. Maybe a 2000's Ford with a billion miles.

[canuck_24]

One year we all did gift cards.  WTF is the point of that? Why should I give you $10 and you give me $10 in exchange?  Especially if it is $10 to a store I don't go to often (DH's useful gas card was to a station we don't have here.)  Why can't we all just keep our freaking $10?

My mother has been giving me 50 euros for Christmas and birthday for years, while I really don't have a money problem. When some years ago even my younger brother started giving me money as a Christmas present, I suggested that we adults should stop giving each other presents. It is indeed pointless handing over money or gift cards to each other. Not buying gifts also reduces the stress for Christmas shopping. Now we only give gifts to my brother's 2 children.

With my in-laws we still give each other gifts. But at least we ask each other if their is anything we want to have. Then at least you don't get anything pointless. Although FIL insists on buying me thick paper books, while I have been an avid Kindle reader for many years. But he doesn't like the fact that you can't put an e-book on the Christmas tree...

Comments like these break my heart a little.  I LOVE Christmas, and I love giving my loved ones gifts - it is the one time of year I put a serious amount of effort into displaying how much I think about them throughout the year.  Of course, I am right there with you on the cash/gift cards, I too would be very frustrated to give or receive money. 

So... suggest to your family a new theme for a gift exchange: a "consumables Christmas" where any gift given must be able to be consumed (perhaps a selection of craft beer for your brother?  That fancy tea your mom has been wanting to try?  Soaps and smelly things from the farmers market for your sister?).

Or maybe "homemade gifts only"? You will be surprised at how creative people can be!  For two Christmases now my family has drawn names early in the year (September?) and because my brother's family had no money we agreed no PRICE limit.. instead the gifts had to be homemade.  So you have ONE person to focus on creating something for.  My 6 year old nephew made a drawing and clay ornament last year for my brother in law, it was adorable.  My (not-even-remotely-crafty) husband made a bat-symbol Christmas wreath for my sister.  My dad made a set of wooden photo frames to hold my wedding photos for me.  And so on.  It was incredible, and surprising!  None of us had ever done anything like that before and it was likely the best gift exchange we have ever done.  Our usual Christmases were exchanging walmart gifts (some of which from nearly a decade ago still remain collecting dust at the top of my closet right now actually) that had very little thought or effort put in, so this was a huge shift for us too.

Christmas isn't about everyone exchanging equivalent amounts of money... but frustration with modern trends doesn't mean giving up on traditions all together.  Just because the rest of the population is consumerist suckas doesn't mean your only options are to join them or forgo it all together.

[mwulff]

Comments like these break my heart a little.  I LOVE Christmas, and I love giving my loved ones gifts - it is the one time of year I put a serious amount of effort into displaying how much I think about them throughout the year.  Of course, I am right there with you on the cash/gift cards, I too would be very frustrated to give or receive money. 

So... suggest to your family a new theme for a gift exchange: a "consumables Christmas" where any gift given must be able to be consumed (perhaps a selection of craft beer for your brother?  That fancy tea your mom has been wanting to try?  Soaps and smelly things from the farmers market for your sister?).

Or maybe "homemade gifts only"? You will be surprised at how creative people can be!  For two Christmases now my family has drawn names early in the year (September?) and because my brother's family had no money we agreed no PRICE limit.. instead the gifts had to be homemade.  So you have ONE person to focus on creating something for.  My 6 year old nephew made a drawing and clay ornament last year for my brother in law, it was adorable.  My (not-even-remotely-crafty) husband made a bat-symbol Christmas wreath for my sister.  My dad made a set of wooden photo frames to hold my wedding photos for me.  And so on.  It was incredible, and surprising!  None of us had ever done anything like that before and it was likely the best gift exchange we have ever done.  Our usual Christmases were exchanging walmart gifts (some of which from nearly a decade ago still remain collecting dust at the top of my closet right now actually) that had very little thought or effort put in, so this was a huge shift for us too.

Christmas isn't about everyone exchanging equivalent amounts of money... but frustration with modern trends doesn't mean giving up on traditions all together.  Just because the rest of the population is consumerist suckas doesn't mean your only options are to join them or forgo it all together.

My mother in law feels much the same way you do, and that's perfectly fine. What she fails to recognize is that we live in a tiny house and we appreciate minimalism so every year she tries to get creative and find something special for us. It's the ultimate exercise in frustration because every year we have to tell her that "sry, no, doesn't fit in the house" and go trade it in at some store for a gift card.

Now the real problem begins, we now have a gift card for a store that sells stuff we don't need and don't want. So we wind up blowing it on something stupid just to get rid of it. One year we replaced our kitchen towels for no reason because the gift card had a due date.

Gifts like that put a tremendous burden on the receiver and cause huge amounts of stress.

Your idea of a consumerist christmas is much more to my personal liking. It's a nice excuse to buy a great wine for my parents and so on. But in the end that becomes a money trade as well.

Your homemade christmas sounds like the ultimate horror-movie to me. I build computer software and I don't like making creative crafty type stuff. My December would turn into panic, stress and depression if we went that way. But it's really cool that your family made it work.

In short I prefer christmas as a nice dinner with my family, preferably with some insanely great wines, and skip the gifts.