Relatives who just don't get it

[LeRainDrop]

Well, F, if my dad didn't just call me and ask for another loan, as a result of his poor planning.  Told him no.

[TexasRunner]

Well, F, if my dad didn't just call me and ask for another loan, as a result of his poor planning.  Told him no.

I'm sorry.  Makes me glad to have a set of parents that don't overspend (not too often anyways).

On another note-  I introduced my brother to MMM a few weeks back and things are looking good!  He was even more disposed towards FI/RE lifestyle than myself.

[Kitsune]

Brother: "I can afford 200$ a month for a car! So I can afford a new car with a 200$/month payment!!"

Me: "... Plus gas... plus winter tires... plus insurance (and you're under 25 and male and have speeding tickets, good luck with that)... plus maintenance... so if all you can afford is 200$/month, hahahaha no you can't."

God I hate being the voice of boring Adult reason.

[Papa Mustache]

One of the biggest reasons I'm trying to FIRE is because my spouse and I are only children. We've got 5 parents (2 married, 2 divorced + 1 remarried) in three states. How's that for math? I fear I'm going to have to spend my entire retirement driving from one place to another checking up on everybody. I hope no one is expecting anything but minor financial support because there's no way with that many family members to look after.

I'm already feeling bad for my 7-year-old nephew - he's an only child and the only grandchild for both sets of grandparents (used to be three sets due to divorce/remarriage but some have passed away). He has four childless aunts. He could probably start his own nursing home someday :-)

On the plus side, he's going to inherit seventeen metric shit-tons of money at some point.

See, there's a good chance we'll get nothing. My parents should be fine because of my dad's pension, but that accounts for most of their wealth. Spouse has said he won't go into debt to pay for the financial mistakes of his parents, who are much less well-off.

I am not too emotionally attached to where we are living now. The house is great; the town, meh. If one of our parents who live out-of-state needed help, I'd jump at the chance to relocate. We're going to have at least two (in different states) who will refuse to move from where they are. I suppose it may all come down to who gets sick or passes on first.

Just curious, does the elderly family help you with the expense of leaving one place to set up a residence in the other place? Buying and selling, etc is expensive.

[DTaggart]

Well, F, if my dad didn't just call me and ask for another loan, as a result of his poor planning.  Told him no.

I feel your pain. Several months ago my 86 year old FIL asked us if we would go out and get a $15,000 loan and then give the money to him. He said he could afford to pay us back $200 a month, and we'd be his first payment so we could totally count on getting paid back. Because apparently there's no chance of him dying between now and age 93 or anything.

He needed the money because he got into debt buying stupid shit like collectible coins and "antiques." Then he had taken out a personal loan to pay off the credit cards, then got into more debt. Then took out a Lending Club loan to pay the cards off again. Then took out a Prosper Loan to pay them off again. Of course his last bankruptcy was too recent for him to file again.

We declined to loan him the money, and he was very insulted that we apparently didn't find him credit-worthy. If I ever had doubts about keeping our financial situation to ourselves, they are gone.

[Papa Mustache]

Next time he buys "As Seen on TV" or magazine "collectibles" - slide over to eBay with him and show him the resale values.

[mtn]

Next time he buys "As Seen on TV" or magazine "collectibles" - slide over to eBay with him and show him the resale values.

Old people often don't believe Ebay to be accurate. I've sold about $100 of odds and ends around the house as we were moving on Ebay, and I mentioned that something could be sold on Ebay instead of throwing it out. My MIL said "Nobody does that" and "You can't trust those values". Well, I do it. And I don't know what about the $15 that was just deposited in my bank I can't trust. But there you have it.

[DTaggart]

Next time he buys "As Seen on TV" or magazine "collectibles" - slide over to eBay with him and show him the resale values.

We consider it a good thing that he hasn't really figured out ebay yet because it would just encourage him to buy more shit.

At one point when he figured out he was in over his head, he took his partial collection of Morgan Silver Dollars that he had acquired through a monthly subscription system to a dealer to try and sell. I guess according to "the book" the coins were worth about $2000. The dealer offered him $400. FIL decided that he wasn't being offered the full value only because he didn't have the entire set, so he completely balked when we suggested he cancel the $100/month subscription so as not to get further in debt. Fortunately, he did eventually figure out that the company allowed returns for up to a year, and he was able to get some money back by returning the coins.

He (and MIL before she passed) seemed to think that all of their antique purchases were investments. Every time we'd go visit, we'd be shown some new acquisition (usually a ceramic dog figurine), and be regaled with a tale of how "the book" said the item was worth X amount, but they had gotten a "deal" because they knew the guy or some other super special reason. It never entered their mind that the guy just couldn't get anyone to pay book value for it, and they would never be able to either.

FIL pays $80/month for a case in the local antique mall where he is ever so slowly selling off some of these investments. Sometimes he has a good month where he makes several hundred dollars above the rental fee, but just as often he sells nothing and is writing a check for the $80. He only seems to remember the good months, of course, and ignores us if we ask whether he is making or losing money over time (likely because he has no idea).

Sadly, this is only a small part of his lifelong history of poor decisions, someday I'll have to write a much longer post on him!

[Kitsune]

Next time he buys "As Seen on TV" or magazine "collectibles" - slide over to eBay with him and show him the resale values.

Old people often don't believe Ebay to be accurate. I've sold about $100 of odds and ends around the house as we were moving on Ebay, and I mentioned that something could be sold on Ebay instead of throwing it out. My MIL said "Nobody does that" and "You can't trust those values". Well, I do it. And I don't know what about the $15 that was just deposited in my bank I can't trust. But there you have it.

It's like people who try to sell furniture on Kijiji saying that 'this has a higher value than what I'm asking, so the price is non-negotiable'.

If there's emotional value, fair, that's not measurable. Frankly, though, the 'value' of a used/antique piece of furniture depends entirely on what people are willing to pay for it. Not what you paid for it 20 years ago and believe it's now worth. It may be more, and it may be less.

[Cassie]

Every time I see one of these threads i am amazed at the number of people that financially support parents or siblings.  That is called enabling. Even with adult kids there is a time to stop.  In my family we always help people with our time, etc. While this may mean living local if you do or traveling on your sick time or vacation time to help when you can and hooking them up to local resources if they need that.  I am 62 and would never take a dime from my kids.  My Mom lived so long that eventually she had to live on a small pension and SS alone when her savings ran out but managed her small amount of $ well.  She would never take any $ from any of us kids.  She took our help of time when it was needed.  There are so many resources for seniors that kids should help them fill out the paperwork, etc if needed to get the services that our taxes have paid for.  Bailing people out of bad decision making is just stupid and encourages them to be irresponsible.  I know in some cultures it is expected but I would venture to guess that most people here don't fall into that category.

[merula]

Every time I see one of these threads i am amazed at the number of people that financially support parents or siblings.  That is called enabling. Even with adult kids there is a time to stop.  In my family we always help people with our time, etc. While this may mean living local if you do or traveling on your sick time or vacation time to help when you can and hooking them up to local resources if they need that.  I am 62 and would never take a dime from my kids.  My Mom lived so long that eventually she had to live on a small pension and SS alone when her savings ran out but managed her small amount of $ well.  She would never take any $ from any of us kids.  She took our help of time when it was needed.  There are so many resources for seniors that kids should help them fill out the paperwork, etc if needed to get the services that our taxes have paid for.  Bailing people out of bad decision making is just stupid and encourages them to be irresponsible.  I know in some cultures it is expected but I would venture to guess that most people here don't fall into that category.

You're welcome to your views, and I'm glad that your family is such that it's unconscionable to be a burden to others.

For me, though, if it's a matter of my sibling or parent or child being on the streets, I will financially support them to keep them safe. The support won't be luxurious, but it still won't be cheap. I couldn't live with myself if I had the means to give someone I love a roof and refused to do it. You're welcome to your views, but some people call that compassion, not enabling.

[Cassie]

Sure taking someone in on a short term basis is fine but supporting them long term is not. If a sibling can't work due to disability, etc you hook them up to services.  If a senior parent lives on SS alone and can't make it you fill out forms and again hook them up to services (housing, etc). My kids came back home a few times as adults to finish college, hit a rough patch, etc.   I have helped many a friend hook up to services or took them on errands, watched their kids etc to help them get back on their feet.  I let one of my adult son's friends stay with us for a month once when he hit a rough patch.  That is different then permanently supporting a parent or sibling or an adult child unless the adult child has special needs or severe disability and even then you can usually help them through services to be as independent as they can be.

[wenchsenior]

Every time I see one of these threads i am amazed at the number of people that financially support parents or siblings.  That is called enabling. Even with adult kids there is a time to stop.  In my family we always help people with our time, etc. While this may mean living local if you do or traveling on your sick time or vacation time to help when you can and hooking them up to local resources if they need that.  I am 62 and would never take a dime from my kids.  My Mom lived so long that eventually she had to live on a small pension and SS alone when her savings ran out but managed her small amount of $ well.  She would never take any $ from any of us kids.  She took our help of time when it was needed.  There are so many resources for seniors that kids should help them fill out the paperwork, etc if needed to get the services that our taxes have paid for.  Bailing people out of bad decision making is just stupid and encourages them to be irresponsible.  I know in some cultures it is expected but I would venture to guess that most people here don't fall into that category.

You're welcome to your views, and I'm glad that your family is such that it's unconscionable to be a burden to others.

For me, though, if it's a matter of my sibling or parent or child being on the streets, I will financially support them to keep them safe. The support won't be luxurious, but it still won't be cheap. I couldn't live with myself if I had the means to give someone I love a roof and refused to do it. You're welcome to your views, but some people call that compassion, not enabling.

I appreciate that there is some truth to what Cassie says. In my case, there is some enabling, I guess. On the other hand, there were many years where I did nothing to help my mother, and she just sank and sank and sank and sank. She's smart, and capable of working. She knew what she SHOULD do, she just was too passive most of the time to do it. Every change, every move, made her paralyzed with anxiety, to the point that the status quo was almost always less upsetting. Some people just don't seem to have the right personality or physical or mental ability to drag themselves up.  In my husband's mother's case, she has actually been homeless on the street several times, and still can't/won't change. Some people just don't.

In those cases, if you love the person, you have to make a choice about what will cause you more misery. Leaving the loved one to their fate? Or helping?  In my case, while I resent having to help, I have far less psychological misery than if I had just left them to their fate. But I have trouble just turning my emotions off, with someone I love.

I guess, in some ways it is like dealing with an addict. Except with addicts, I haven't had as much trouble just shrugging and letting them get on with it, cutting myself off emotionally. With the effects of poverty, I'm not as able to do so.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I tend to put a time limit on help, especially of the accommodations kind. But I find that I do better when I charge that person actual rent, and when I put a hard time limit on how much I'm able to provide, for how long.

If a person's got a full-time job, it's still possible to have a setback. I've known lots of basically responsible people who needed accommodations between leases, after a deployment, or after a nasty breakup. But I've also noticed those adults generally have their act together after about a month of working, saving, and organizing. If it takes longer, and if a person truly isn't able to get it together while earning money and having lodging, utility, and food expenses paid, then that person simply isn't functioning as an adult and most likely never will, so long as they are getting their needs met.

[wenchsenior]

On a more positive note, I want to point out that dealing first hand with the struggles of chronic poverty and tightrope-living among my family members, has really taught me lessons and kept me more motivated and responsible than I would otherwise have been.

Case in point, we just TODAY passed 500k in investment/liquid assets (not including housing equity), most accumulated just in the past few years. We are more than half way to FI. Even 10 years ago, this seemed really challenging to me. Now, I look to the hardships of family as a fear-motivator, and the good examples set on this board and pride in our progress, as a positive-motivator, to KEEP. ON. MUSTACHING.

[tarheeldan]

On a more positive note, I want to point out that dealing first hand with the struggles of chronic poverty and tightrope-living among my family members, has really taught me lessons and kept me more motivated and responsible than I would otherwise have been.

Case in point, we just TODAY passed 500k in investment/liquid assets (not including housing equity), most accumulated just in the past few years. We are more than half way to FI. Even 10 years ago, this seemed really challenging to me. Now, I look to the hardships of family as a fear-motivator, and the good examples set on this board and pride in our progress, as a positive-motivator, to KEEP. ON. MUSTACHING.

Congratulations! That is a big milestone

[AlanStache]

Every time I see one of these threads i am amazed at the number of people that financially support parents or siblings.  That is called enabling. Even with adult kids there is a time to stop.  In my family we always help people with our time, etc. While this may mean living local if you do or traveling on your sick time or vacation time to help when you can and hooking them up to local resources if they need that.  I am 62 and would never take a dime from my kids.  My Mom lived so long that eventually she had to live on a small pension and SS alone when her savings ran out but managed her small amount of $ well.  She would never take any $ from any of us kids.  She took our help of time when it was needed.  There are so many resources for seniors that kids should help them fill out the paperwork, etc if needed to get the services that our taxes have paid for.  Bailing people out of bad decision making is just stupid and encourages them to be irresponsible.  I know in some cultures it is expected but I would venture to guess that most people here don't fall into that category.

from the inheritance thread:

Interesting situation here:

Credit card debt after cosigner dies
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/70191/credit-card-debt-after-cosigner-dies

"My father is a cosigner on my brothers credit cards. He died last month.
My brother is not paying off the debt. Can we remove my fathers name? Is
my dads estate responsible? My brother owes more than the estate is worth.
My mom will be left destitute if the credit companies go after the estate."

I saw that post early yesterday and thought "The mother will be destitute with the debt but alright otherwise? How much money can someone possibly owe on a credit card that needs a cosigner?"

The OP later qualified in a comment:

My mom is in I)linois. The estate is only about 150,000. The debt on the car loans my brother has in my dads name is about 70,000. Credit cards are over 60,000.

Yikes, I feel bad for the mother. Husband dies, she has 7x years of income (more if she will now collect her deceased husbands pension, works etc...) OR will be left with little because somehow her son has 130,000$ in debt from cars and CC.

So basically after your dad messed up with co-signing for your shit head brother then went and died you would send your mother a link to a food banks website?

You can say the mother could have/would have/should have all day long but what do you do going forward?

[Sibley]

Every time I see one of these threads i am amazed at the number of people that financially support parents or siblings.  That is called enabling. Even with adult kids there is a time to stop.  In my family we always help people with our time, etc. While this may mean living local if you do or traveling on your sick time or vacation time to help when you can and hooking them up to local resources if they need that.  I am 62 and would never take a dime from my kids.  My Mom lived so long that eventually she had to live on a small pension and SS alone when her savings ran out but managed her small amount of $ well.  She would never take any $ from any of us kids.  She took our help of time when it was needed.  There are so many resources for seniors that kids should help them fill out the paperwork, etc if needed to get the services that our taxes have paid for.  Bailing people out of bad decision making is just stupid and encourages them to be irresponsible.  I know in some cultures it is expected but I would venture to guess that most people here don't fall into that category.

from the inheritance thread:

Interesting situation here:

Credit card debt after cosigner dies
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/70191/credit-card-debt-after-cosigner-dies

"My father is a cosigner on my brothers credit cards. He died last month.
My brother is not paying off the debt. Can we remove my fathers name? Is
my dads estate responsible? My brother owes more than the estate is worth.
My mom will be left destitute if the credit companies go after the estate."

I saw that post early yesterday and thought "The mother will be destitute with the debt but alright otherwise? How much money can someone possibly owe on a credit card that needs a cosigner?"

The OP later qualified in a comment:

My mom is in I)linois. The estate is only about 150,000. The debt on the car loans my brother has in my dads name is about 70,000. Credit cards are over 60,000.

Yikes, I feel bad for the mother. Husband dies, she has 7x years of income (more if she will now collect her deceased husbands pension, works etc...) OR will be left with little because somehow her son has 130,000$ in debt from cars and CC.

So basically after your dad messed up with co-signing for your shit head brother then went and died you would send your mother a link to a food banks website?

You can say the mother could have/would have/should have all day long but what do you do going forward?

Personally, I tend to agree with Cassie. Though there is a point where I'd step in. In the specific case linked, as I posted on that thread: do damage control.

1. Sell the vehicles ASAP and pay off the loans.
2. Talk to a lawyer and try to get the husband's name off the CC's. Or whatever is possible.

Best case scenario, the cars & related debt are gone, the son is stuck with his cc debt, and mother will be ok.

But, I'd also help the mother with whatever paperwork, organizing, downsizing, etc is needed.

[Sibley]

<snip, and hope I did it right>

I appreciate that there is some truth to what Cassie says. In my case, there is some enabling, I guess. On the other hand, there were many years where I did nothing to help my mother, and she just sank and sank and sank and sank. She's smart, and capable of working. She knew what she SHOULD do, she just was too passive most of the time to do it. Every change, every move, made her paralyzed with anxiety, to the point that the status quo was almost always less upsetting. Some people just don't seem to have the right personality or physical or mental ability to drag themselves up.  In my husband's mother's case, she has actually been homeless on the street several times, and still can't/won't change. Some people just don't.

In those cases, if you love the person, you have to make a choice about what will cause you more misery. Leaving the loved one to their fate? Or helping?  In my case, while I resent having to help, I have far less psychological misery than if I had just left them to their fate. But I have trouble just turning my emotions off, with someone I love.

I guess, in some ways it is like dealing with an addict. Except with addicts, I haven't had as much trouble just shrugging and letting them get on with it, cutting myself off emotionally. With the effects of poverty, I'm not as able to do so.
[/quote]

In your mother's case, I would have tried to get her to talk to a doctor about the anxiety. When it's interfering with daily life, you need help and there's no shame in that.

[wenchsenior]

In your mother's case, I would have tried to get her to talk to a doctor about the anxiety. When it's interfering with daily life, you need help and there's no shame in that.

We repeatedly tried to get her to see a doctor or at least a therapist. No go. You can't make adults do stuff, unfortunately.

[Sibley]

In your mother's case, I would have tried to get her to talk to a doctor about the anxiety. When it's interfering with daily life, you need help and there's no shame in that.

We repeatedly tried to get her to see a doctor or at least a therapist. No go. You can't make adults do stuff, unfortunately.

At least you tried.

[MrMoogle]

Okay, this is slightly off topic as it was a friend who showed me this rather than a relative, but I didn't know where to put it and didn't feel it was enough for its own topic.. But oh my gosh... Have you ever heard of the 50/30/20 rule?! This is nuts!  A friend of mine just showed me this link thinking it was a good way to budget to save for a house down payment.  More details in the link, but essentially splitting your take home pay into three sections: spending 50% on needs, 30% on wants, and 20% to paying off debts or into savings. I mean, I guess it's "good" that they recommend saving 20%, but holy sh*t. 

https://www.brightpeakfinancial.com/advice/debt/50-30-20-formula/?utm_source=pinterest&utm_medium=ad&utm_content=503020&utm_campaign=ge_infographics


Out of curiosity, for those still working, what are your spending/saving ratios?  In my opinion I am still on the high side, spending about 45% of take home pay and saving 55%.

I'm not caught up yet, but I wanted to respond.  I actually saw an article about 50/30/20 where the 20 is really save spending.  Saving for the next car or vacation or whatever.  But it's ok, since you should put the 5% in your 401k to get your company's match, and this is already taken out of your check.

[Cassie]

It is really hard not to enable someone you love. I have one of my 3 sons that is an addict and I have enabled him at times but finally got tough. I knew better too because I spent a career in human services, etc.  I am not saying it is not tough. However, if you have parents that are seniors I would help them apply for a senior apartment, hook them up to all the services they require and hopefully then they would be able to live on their SS.  Sometimes you have no choice but to help financially. When my Grandpa died his pension died with him and at that time many, many years ago there was not survivor option he could choose. My Grandma was 10 years younger so my parents took her in until she obtained a nice senior apartment. Because her SS was so low she did not have enough $ although she was frugal.  So all 3 adult kids took turns picking up her meds and taking her out to eat, on vacations, etc.  With a tiny bit of assistance she was fine.  My Mom had both a small pension and SS plus savings since she outlived my Dad by a long time. eventually the savings was gone but she spent carefully and was able to live fine.  The problem I have is when people are irresponsible and expect others to bail them out or when others are totally supporting them with car, insurance, apartment, etc.  How many people can realistically support 2 households?  I have a lot of empathy for people and know from personal experience that is is way easier to say something then it is to follow through because this kind of crap tugs at your heart strings.  I have told my DH and best friend that if I start to get weak with my son they are too slap me around:)) 

[TheGrimSqueaker]

<snip, and hope I did it right>

I appreciate that there is some truth to what Cassie says. In my case, there is some enabling, I guess. On the other hand, there were many years where I did nothing to help my mother, and she just sank and sank and sank and sank. She's smart, and capable of working. She knew what she SHOULD do, she just was too passive most of the time to do it. Every change, every move, made her paralyzed with anxiety, to the point that the status quo was almost always less upsetting. Some people just don't seem to have the right personality or physical or mental ability to drag themselves up.  In my husband's mother's case, she has actually been homeless on the street several times, and still can't/won't change. Some people just don't.

In those cases, if you love the person, you have to make a choice about what will cause you more misery. Leaving the loved one to their fate? Or helping?  In my case, while I resent having to help, I have far less psychological misery than if I had just left them to their fate. But I have trouble just turning my emotions off, with someone I love.

I guess, in some ways it is like dealing with an addict. Except with addicts, I haven't had as much trouble just shrugging and letting them get on with it, cutting myself off emotionally. With the effects of poverty, I'm not as able to do so.

In your mother's case, I would have tried to get her to talk to a doctor about the anxiety. When it's interfering with daily life, you need help and there's no shame in that.
[/quote]

Illinois isn't a community property state. The man's debts should not transfer to the wife unless the debt was something for her benefit. She wasn't the one who co-signed, and he appears to have acted alone. In a community property state, if you're married you can't take on debt without the spouse's written permission since they're on the hook too. But she should definitely see a lawyer about protecting her assets.

[SwordGuy]

and then posted pictures of her fancy crepe lunch out with her fiance. And then posted another picture of two craft beers from her going out with her fiance. I want to just shake my head, but it stresses me out that she's going to be a financial burden to my mom yet again :(

Some people have to be told in no uncertain terms they are being childish asshairs. subtle just won't do it.

So tell her she should stop spending money she doesn't have so she doesn't end up stealing your mom's ability to provide for herself.

[kayvent]

So my sister's fiance just got laid off. They have a two year old kid and about a quarter of a year's worth of expenses in savings (which is mostly due to a six-figure inheritance that has been slowly whittled away over the past few years). She asked me for advice, so I sent her a huge long email about how to stop spending money since they don't have any income anymore. She responded that she would try to do better...

and then posted pictures of her fancy crepe lunch out with her fiance. And then posted another picture of two craft beers from her going out with her fiance. I want to just shake my head, but it stresses me out that she's going to be a financial burden to my mom yet again :(

Fiancé? From how you describe the situation, I get the impression they have been together for awhile ("They have a two year old kid" and "inheritance that has been slowly whittled away over the past few years").

Can afford crepes and kids but can't afford the 60$ and lawn chairs to get married?

[financialfreedomsloth]

Wow you are more generous than me. My sibling and I may inherit a lot one day. Not Multi-millions but enough to FIRE.

By that time I hope to be FIRE on my own and I also hope my sibling is financially stable. However, so much money has run through their hands I am afraid that the inheritance will as well.

If they, or their kids, call I would have a really hard time being generous knowing I lived frugal while they didn't.

Since the inheritance might be enough to Fire on, talk to your parents and have the inheritance done via a truqst that pays out 4% of assets each year. that way sibling can only waste that amount each year and not the principal. Do it the correct way and it may even be better from an inheritance tax view ...

[K-ice]

^^^ Thanks. I might mention it. But I find it hard to tell parents what to do with their money.
If I can explain a clear tax advantage it might help.

On another topic, I was just commenting on this below.

So my sister's fiance just got laid off....

and then posted pictures of her fancy crepe lunch out with her fiance. And then posted another picture of two craft beers from her going out with her fiance.

How can people like this post pictures while asking for money from someone else? Even if that "funding" person is not on social media they will likely find out.

I've seen it happen too.

Relative "Look at you son on a vacation to xyz"

Mother "No that was 2 months ago and a once in a lifetime opportunity."

Relative "No this is a recient post & they are there again."

Mother, Jaw drops.

That Morher actually cut off her son about 2 months after that post. She had been helping out a significant monthly sum for the past 18 months.  In addition to other Emergency or "gift" lump sums over the past 20 years.

I don't think the "gifts" will stop, & that's fine, but I am very glad the regular payments stopped.

The Mother finally realized she was enabling a lifestyle for her son that she wasn't even spending on herself.

[Paul der Krake]

So my sister's fiance just got laid off. They have a two year old kid and about a quarter of a year's worth of expenses in savings (which is mostly due to a six-figure inheritance that has been slowly whittled away over the past few years). She asked me for advice, so I sent her a huge long email about how to stop spending money since they don't have any income anymore. She responded that she would try to do better...

and then posted pictures of her fancy crepe lunch out with her fiance. And then posted another picture of two craft beers from her going out with her fiance. I want to just shake my head, but it stresses me out that she's going to be a financial burden to my mom yet again :(

Fiancé? From how you describe the situation, I get the impression they have been together for awhile ("They have a two year old kid" and "inheritance that has been slowly whittled away over the past few years").

Can afford crepes and kids but can't afford the 60$ and lawn chairs to get married?

It's not as common in North America but many couples live together for years before finally tying the knot, for reasons that are none of anyone's business. When my aunt and uncle got married, the rings were brought by their two primary school-aged kids.

[Drifterrider]

Jeez, that is bad... is it at least written down somewhere?


Definitely agree, kids are easier than elderly. What do you tell an 87 year old nurse with a Masters degree in Public Health when she says that the doctor didn't know what he was talking about when he ordered her to get a walker? Do you remind said 87 year old that they fell down because of their poor balance (hint: That pisses them off)?

Yes. Yes you do.  Let them get pissed off.  Children don't like to be reminded either: but they get over it.

I had a conversation with my mother two years ago about doing things she shouldn't.  I reminded her she wasn't 50 any longer.  She reminded me that I wasn't either :)

But she doesn't climb ladders any longer; and neither do I.

[10dollarsatatime]

I've posted about my brother before... He's a good guy.  He's shite with financial anything.  I went with him to the dealership yesterday because he wanted to trade in his F150 truck.  For a Ford Eco-Diesel.  He wants to trade it in because it has a transmission problem that he doesn't want to fix.

Found out: his credit score is 625 or so.  F150 is $20,000 underwater.  Rolling that into the eco-diesel he wants would result in a $60,000 loan.  Thank God they told him no.  But they did say if he could pay down his balance by $10,000 or so, they could look at rolling the negative equity into the new truck.

But wait!  There's more!  As we left, he called his wife and told her no go.  But that she should look at buying a car under her name.  Maybe one of the new Dodge Darts. ?? Because somehow, this is cheaper than fixing a tranny issue in the little pickup they have.  I tried asking if he had checked any of the small dealerships in town that just sold older cars.  But no.  He has to have something with a warranty... 

[Papa Mustache]

Lots of guessing on the particulars of his truck but AutoZone (and other FLAPS) has a replacement transmission for $1600 with a good warranty. A few hundred to install it if he wasn't inclined to do it himself and he'd be back on the road.

Why do people do financial hari-kari to themselves so casually?

[paddedhat]

Lots of guessing on the particulars of his truck but AutoZone (and other FLAPS) has a replacement transmission for $1600 with a good warranty. A few hundred to install it if he wasn't inclined to do it himself and he'd be back on the road.

Why do people do financial hari-kari to themselves so casually?

Yea, it can be pretty amazing to find out how affordable some EOTW car crisis's are. My kid's Focus puked an automatic. My local mechanic had one shipped straight from the Ford's rebuilder, in a plane white box. It was installed for $2k. It came with a significant warranty, and was roughly half of what the dealer would of charged to install the same transmission from "Ford".

[jinga nation]

Why do people do financial hari-kari to themselves so casually?

Financial hara-kiri is bloodless, unlike using a gun/knife/sword. And you don't need balls to do it. It's as easy as swiping a card.

[Wilson Hall]

One of the biggest reasons I'm trying to FIRE is because my spouse and I are only children. We've got 5 parents (2 married, 2 divorced + 1 remarried) in three states. How's that for math? I fear I'm going to have to spend my entire retirement driving from one place to another checking up on everybody. I hope no one is expecting anything but minor financial support because there's no way with that many family members to look after.

I'm already feeling bad for my 7-year-old nephew - he's an only child and the only grandchild for both sets of grandparents (used to be three sets due to divorce/remarriage but some have passed away). He has four childless aunts. He could probably start his own nursing home someday :-)

On the plus side, he's going to inherit seventeen metric shit-tons of money at some point.

See, there's a good chance we'll get nothing. My parents should be fine because of my dad's pension, but that accounts for most of their wealth. Spouse has said he won't go into debt to pay for the financial mistakes of his parents, who are much less well-off.

I am not too emotionally attached to where we are living now. The house is great; the town, meh. If one of our parents who live out-of-state needed help, I'd jump at the chance to relocate. We're going to have at least two (in different states) who will refuse to move from where they are. I suppose it may all come down to who gets sick or passes on first.

Just curious, does the elderly family help you with the expense of leaving one place to set up a residence in the other place? Buying and selling, etc is expensive.

I don't see that happening. The most likely scenario I can envision at this point is that if one of the out-of-state family members passed away and the surviving spouse needed physical assistance, we'd help move them into a more manageable living space in their town, fill out necessary paperwork for any needed assistance, and simply make frequent trips to see them until it was absolutely necessary for us to move closer. No one wants to move away from their friends, family, and support network; I get that. So far, both sets of out-of-state parents have been very undemanding, which, perhaps ironically, makes me more willing to move and help out. If we end up doing that, spouse's mother, who lives in the same city as us, may have a hissy-fit of epic proportions.

 

[Papa Mustache]

Thanks, I'm trying to apply the forum wisdom to future choices we might need to make.

[Reynold]

This is one problem I am running into with my father.  He can be very secretive about a lot of things.

It is clear his health is declining, however if you ask him he will tell you that all his doctors say he is 100% healthy. 

Last I heard I was the named executor but that was 10 years ago.

His doctors may indeed be telling him that, my father didn't go to doctors that made him do things, he didn't like that, and my FIL's primary care doctor, who was almost as old as he was, kept telling him he was "fine for his age" until my FIL went on dialysis for kidney failure.  The key is to pick doctors who make no effort to diagnose anything, see?

You have every right to say "If I am executor for your estate I need to AT LEAST see the document that names me executor, so I know what I am supposed to do.  Just like if you sign a contract, you want to read it, right?  This obligates me to do something, I need to know what it is."  That might make some kind of sense to him, and still works even if his wife is executor, she needs to know that stuff, since apparently she doesn't now.  If you are lucky you might be able to use that as leverage to say "OK, I'm supposed to handle disbursing things, right?  I don't need to see info on your assets and such now, I don't even want to, but I need to know where to find it then, because by definition you won't be around to tell me." 

And any variant of "Have I ever let you down?" should be met with "Yes, every time you refused to answer my question when I had the right to know the answer." 

It would then be up to your conscience whether to snoop to see what you are in for when you get stuck with this job. 

[kayvent]

My treasured mother called me today. After looking up a few things, she explained "I owe the CRA twelve thousand dollars." Then she says to my bewilderment, "I have no idea how it could have gotten this bad."

I'm puzzled. "We do know mother. You didn't properly fill out your TD1 forms for your employers." My dear, widow mother works two full-time jobs and has never filled out a TD1 form correctly. As a result her employers ignorantly don't deduct enough taxes from her paycheques over the year.

She states, "Maybe that's why." Now me, being a big confused why she waffles on this, replies "No mother, it is not a maybe." I prep my cherry voice. "It is the reason. We've been over this twice."

As an aside, I kinda find the Canadian tax system disgusting. My poor, widow mother makes less than a third my hourly salary but pays more taxes than I do. (Because of various deductions, my first ~43K is not taxable income but only her first 12K is not taxed.)

[RetiredAt63]

As an aside, I kinda find the Canadian tax system disgusting. My poor, widow mother makes less than a third my hourly salary but pays more taxes than I do. (Because of various deductions, my first ~43K is not taxable income but only her first 12K is not taxed.)

Wait until your mother hits 65 (if she isn't already) and you see how they calculate income for the OAS clawback.  Penalize saving/investing much for your retirement?

[Sibley]

Lots of guessing on the particulars of his truck but AutoZone (and other FLAPS) has a replacement transmission for $1600 with a good warranty. A few hundred to install it if he wasn't inclined to do it himself and he'd be back on the road.

Why do people do financial hari-kari to themselves so casually?

Yea, it can be pretty amazing to find out how affordable some EOTW car crisis's are. My kid's Focus puked an automatic. My local mechanic had one shipped straight from the Ford's rebuilder, in a plane white box. It was installed for $2k. It came with a significant warranty, and was roughly half of what the dealer would of charged to install the same transmission from "Ford".

I have a Focus, and just found out that my transmission will probably fail prematurely due to Ford's screwing up. Lovely.

[Kitsune]

My SIL is at it again. *sigh*

Long rant cut very short: she's blaming her 'depression' (note that she's refused to see either a psyhiatrist or a therapist for 3 years now) for active and predictable shitty behavior to her family and parents. (Note: depression is a 100% valid medical condition, but it's not a universal excuse for shitty profiteering behavior. Or, more sarcasticaly, SOME OF US manage our mental health without treating our family like shit. Including myself and 75% of my immediate family. Makes me a bit less sympathetic to the 'but I'm depressed, you can't call me on my shit' excuse. Bullcrap I can't.)

Oh, she's also claiming that people "can't tell her what to do in her house" (aka her parent's house; she has an apartment 45 minutes away), and claiming that "she shouldn't have to chip in for groceries because she's on a limited income" (you eat 'em, right? At least offer to make dinner a few times while staying with your parents for 4 days/week all damned summer! Also, your parents are on a limited budget, so why should they have to cover for you. ALSO, if you can buy Dr Who t-shirts, you can buy some cans of pasta sauce, come on.)

Oh, and the highlight: "I don't need therapy! I'm FINE! I just need mom to leave me alone!"

... well, if you move out of her house and back to yours, and stop mooching so frantically, she'll leave you alone. But given the rest of it, "I don't need therapy! I'm fine!" seems... optimistic.

*grits teeth*

At least we said no to her moving into OUR house. "for 2 weeks", she said. BULLCRAP. We'd never get her or her stuff out.

[Papa Mustache]

Lots of guessing on the particulars of his truck but AutoZone (and other FLAPS) has a replacement transmission for $1600 with a good warranty. A few hundred to install it if he wasn't inclined to do it himself and he'd be back on the road.

Why do people do financial hari-kari to themselves so casually?

Yea, it can be pretty amazing to find out how affordable some EOTW car crisis's are. My kid's Focus puked an automatic. My local mechanic had one shipped straight from the Ford's rebuilder, in a plane white box. It was installed for $2k. It came with a significant warranty, and was roughly half of what the dealer would of charged to install the same transmission from "Ford".

I have a Focus, and just found out that my transmission will probably fail prematurely due to Ford's screwing up. Lovely.

Get that auto trans filter and fluid changed. Might extend it's lifetime. Cheap insurance.

[Sibley]

Lots of guessing on the particulars of his truck but AutoZone (and other FLAPS) has a replacement transmission for $1600 with a good warranty. A few hundred to install it if he wasn't inclined to do it himself and he'd be back on the road.

Why do people do financial hari-kari to themselves so casually?

Yea, it can be pretty amazing to find out how affordable some EOTW car crisis's are. My kid's Focus puked an automatic. My local mechanic had one shipped straight from the Ford's rebuilder, in a plane white box. It was installed for $2k. It came with a significant warranty, and was roughly half of what the dealer would of charged to install the same transmission from "Ford".

I have a Focus, and just found out that my transmission will probably fail prematurely due to Ford's screwing up. Lovely.

Get that auto trans filter and fluid changed. Might extend it's lifetime. Cheap insurance.

I have 16k miles on it. 2014 Ford Focus - look up transmission issues. Apparently, for several years the auto transmissions have had problems.

[Papa Mustache]

Not surprised. Honda went through that with one of their auto transmissions. So did VW.

Someone explained that the Honda filter was non-serviceable without taking the transmission apart. VW did that ten or fifteen years ago with transmissions that did not even come with a dipstick. Supposedly it had a non-serviceable fluid and filter too.

Of course a few years after these things reached the road, the transmissions started wearing out b/c they could not serviced.

I recall someone also describing the Honda transmission as a "glass transmission" aka fragile.

I have had a long line of manual transmissions from maybe ten different brands. None of the transmissions ever wore out. I've had to replace clutches but a clutch job is not nearly as expensive and I can do them myself. And clutches wear out very slowly if treated well.

Not as convenient as a slushbox but I still like to drive them and like the savings. I fear they are fading away fast though. 

Good luck with your Focus. I like that car and it is on my "short list". Budget now so later it isn't a budget buster.

[economista]

Lots of guessing on the particulars of his truck but AutoZone (and other FLAPS) has a replacement transmission for $1600 with a good warranty. A few hundred to install it if he wasn't inclined to do it himself and he'd be back on the road.

Why do people do financial hari-kari to themselves so casually?

Yea, it can be pretty amazing to find out how affordable some EOTW car crisis's are. My kid's Focus puked an automatic. My local mechanic had one shipped straight from the Ford's rebuilder, in a plane white box. It was installed for $2k. It came with a significant warranty, and was roughly half of what the dealer would of charged to install the same transmission from "Ford".

I have a Focus, and just found out that my transmission will probably fail prematurely due to Ford's screwing up. Lovely.

I have a ford as well, a 2013 focus and they just completely replaced my transmission last month.  They told me that they have extended the warranties to cover any transmission-related issues for 150k miles, which I really think should be longer.

[onlykelsey]

I have had a long line of manual transmissions from maybe ten different brands. None of the transmissions ever wore out. I've had to replace clutches but a clutch job is not nearly as expensive and I can do them myself. And clutches wear out very slowly if treated well.

Not as convenient as a slushbox but I still like to drive them and like the savings. I fear they are fading away fast though. 

I worry about this too.  I had a manual before I moved in to Manhattan 5 or 6 years ago, and worry that I won't be able to find one (that is not a farm truck or sports car) when I move back out.  I actually enjoy driving manual, gas savings and ease of upkeep aside.  Of course maybe I won't say that with two toddlers vying for my attention in the back seat in a couple years...

I also like that your car is harder to steal and (usually) cheaper to insure. 

[sakura]

My future inlaws...

They lost more than 100k to a ponzi scheme many years ago (before I knew them), the leader said he had 'good christian values' so they trusted him.  Now they are involved in a pyramid scheme(life leadership), which couldn't possibly be a scam because it has 'good christian values.  They refuse to see any similarity.  Their kids have all tried to talk them out of this but they refuse to listen.

Recently their business went bankrupt and for whatever reason it wasn't tax shielded, so now they are going bankrupt as well.  Because they have really bad credit history they couldn't get a car loan, so they LEASED a brand new Ford Fusion.  Never mind that they had working cars and could have bought a nicer one with a few months of their lease payments.  They changed their minds and decided they wanted the equity instead so they gave it back(presumably taking whatever penalities as well), and buying a used 2014 Lincoln for 20k! (I can only imagine the terms of this loan...). 

From my understanding this could either completely derail their bankruptcy at worst, get taken back if the court thinks it isn't a reasonable expense, or maybe worst of all, they could agree to keep paying the payments even after they get out of bankruptcy.

I'm scared shitless of having to fund them when they are older.

sh*t, druth! What happens when they die? I assume you and your SO will inherit it, right? A friend of mine in Brazil just inherited a debt from his mother. Id be very scared!

[wevan]

sh*t, druth! What happens when they die? I assume you and your SO will inherit it, right? A friend of mine in Brazil just inherited a debt from his mother. Id be very scared!

Fortunately, debts don't get inherited here in the US (except for long-term care debts in a few states like Pennsylvania, which's another topic, grumble grumble...)  All that can happen is that the debts get repaid by anything in the dead person's estate, and if that isn't enough, then anything else gets written off.  That doesn't stop debt collectors from calling you and strongly implying they're your responsibility to pay, on the other hand - and if you do give in, you can be legally obliged to keep paying, so don't.

[druth]

sh*t, druth! What happens when they die? I assume you and your SO will inherit it, right? A friend of mine in Brazil just inherited a debt from his mother. Id be very scared!

Fortunately, debts don't get inherited here in the US (except for long-term care debts in a few states like Pennsylvania, which's another topic, grumble grumble...)  All that can happen is that the debts get repaid by anything in the dead person's estate, and if that isn't enough, then anything else gets written off.  That doesn't stop debt collectors from calling you and strongly implying they're your responsibility to pay, on the other hand - and if you do give in, you can be legally obliged to keep paying, so don't.

Yup, the estate will pay the debts, and I expect there will be nothing left after.  Thank goodness for social security and that they can't take it as a lump sum because they are probably already close to having nothing and we certainly aren't giving them anything!

Can you inherit somebody else's debts in other countries?  That's horrible.  "Your parents were irresponsible, so screw you forever"

[kayvent]

sh*t, druth! What happens when they die? I assume you and your SO will inherit it, right? A friend of mine in Brazil just inherited a debt from his mother. Id be very scared!

Fortunately, debts don't get inherited here in the US (except for long-term care debts in a few states like Pennsylvania, which's another topic, grumble grumble...)  All that can happen is that the debts get repaid by anything in the dead person's estate, and if that isn't enough, then anything else gets written off.  That doesn't stop debt collectors from calling you and strongly implying they're your responsibility to pay, on the other hand - and if you do give in, you can be legally obliged to keep paying, so don't.

Yup, the estate will pay the debts, and I expect there will be nothing left after.  Thank goodness for social security and that they can't take it as a lump sum because they are probably already close to having nothing and we certainly aren't giving them anything!

Can you inherit somebody else's debts in other countries?  That's horrible.  "Your parents were irresponsible, so screw you forever"

Your mindset is in the wrong frame to understand it; atomizing people and their lives. The best base example is of a wife & husband with a fully unified financial structure: their names are both on everything, everything is a joint account, and so forth. You can probably grasp that if the husband passes away that the debts he accumulated don't simply vanish. The wife still has them. The debts aren't considered something he raised but something they raised.

Similarly, in other cultures an estate can be considered a family's and not an individual's. In that view, the passing on of debts isn't too strange. In that view, the way we have it can be considered strange for reasons I won't go into unless you are curious.