Relatives who just don't get it

[kayvent]

Anyway, after about six months of buttering up, the guy asked my dad for an obscene amount of money (think six figures). Despite being retired and living on a fixed income they weren't actually financially independent, and they'd gone deeply in debt to buy the travel trailer. They hadn't been able to make the payments on it and were about to lose it for that reason, at which point they'd be homeless. Well, my parents hemmed, hawed, and decided not to give it to him. At that point a shitstorm began (classic tantrum behavior to get what a person wants or punish the person who's refusing to give). I sat back with popcorn and a hearty "I told you so."

This part suprises me in so many ways. Off the top of my head, here is what surprises me:

• Who asks for a six figure gift/loan?
• Considering they couldn't make the payments on the RV, that six figure thing would have been a gift not a loan; they already couldn't service the existing loan.
• Who asks for a six figure gift in cash? Modesty fella.
• Who gets upset when someone doesn't give them a six figure cash gift? Unless your parents showed them account balances, for all he knew your parent could have had less money than him and been unable to in the first place.
• Who gets upset when someone doesn't give them a six figure cash gift? Even if your parents show them account balances, its there money and they have no obligation to give it.

• That relative, who I think I mentioned was an asshole. Assholes do things like that. It's in their nature.
• True. The obvious math was obvious, and noted by all.
• See #1. The play was actually quite sophisticated. He established an emotional rapport, a pattern of giving so as to stimulate reciprocity, and then started the moocher equivalent of crying like a baby to get the breast to release its nutriment.
• A person trying to manipulate or punish another to get what he wants will frequently throw a tantrum. It goes back to that "asshole" situation I mentioned earlier. He'd also become quite close to my parents, exchanging confidences and whatnot, and was able to make some guesses about the resources that might be available to him if he could just latch on and start sucking. The thing that astounded me is that my folks briefly considered giving him at least something to help with payments toward the yacht-on-wheels, because they were that attached to him due to his manipulative crap.
• Someone who, at some point, successfully used a tantrum and social pressure to get what he wanted. On the plus side, he cut my parents off and is not speaking to them anymore. I consider that a success.

I have to imagine a parallel world where the distant relative couple, because you describe that they looked well off, what they would have done if your parents would have popped the question to them ("can you give me a 100K cash gift?") and then flipped out on them if they didn't provide it.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I have to imagine a parallel world where the distant relative couple, because you describe that they looked well off, what they would have done if your parents would have popped the question to them ("can you give me a 100K cash gift?") and then flipped out on them if they didn't provide it.

Flipped the script, you mean? I'd have paid to watch that. It would have been hilarious but who in the world could keep a straight face while doing that? Should they have waited for the umpteen-dollar question first, or should they have made a preemptive strike?

I'm stealing your idea for social warfare in the future. I know just the target; someone's about to ask me for a Really Big Favor, and I don't mean the sexual kind. I'd give them that for free, provided the appropriate protection was available, except I'm out of F-bombs through the end of this month.

What will you name this technique? You invented it. Give it a name.

[kayvent]

I have to imagine a parallel world where the distant relative couple, because you describe that they looked well off, what they would have done if your parents would have popped the question to them ("can you give me a 100K cash gift?") and then flipped out on them if they didn't provide it.

Flipped the script, you mean? I'd have paid to watch that. It would have been hilarious but who in the world could keep a straight face while doing that? Should they have waited for the umpteen-dollar question first, or should they have made a preemptive strike?

I'm stealing your idea for social warfare in the future. I know just the target; someone's about to ask me for a Really Big Favor, and I don't mean the sexual kind. I'd give them that for free, provided the appropriate protection was available, except I'm out of F-bombs through the end of this month.

What will you name this technique? You invented it. Give it a name.

Preemptive of course. Ideally as close as possible to when they would ask. The sentence before would be optimal but the more conservative minded may not want to play on such a razor fine edge.

I've named a human before and bridge techniques yet you catch me off guard here. After some thought, Favour Reversal seems like an appropriate name. 'Favour' spelled the Canadian way because mate should wanna be polite eh aboot ruinning a hoser's plan to swindle ye eh.

[LeRainDrop]

I have to imagine a parallel world where the distant relative couple, because you describe that they looked well off, what they would have done if your parents would have popped the question to them ("can you give me a 100K cash gift?") and then flipped out on them if they didn't provide it.

Flipped the script, you mean? I'd have paid to watch that. It would have been hilarious but who in the world could keep a straight face while doing that? Should they have waited for the umpteen-dollar question first, or should they have made a preemptive strike?

I'm stealing your idea for social warfare in the future. I know just the target; someone's about to ask me for a Really Big Favor, and I don't mean the sexual kind. I'd give them that for free, provided the appropriate protection was available, except I'm out of F-bombs through the end of this month.

What will you name this technique? You invented it. Give it a name.

Preemptive of course. Ideally as close as possible to when they would ask. The sentence before would be optimal but the more conservative minded may not want to play on such a razor fine edge.

I've named a human before and bridge techniques yet you catch me off guard here. After some thought, Favour Reversal seems like an appropriate name. 'Favour' spelled the Canadian way because mate should wanna be polite eh aboot ruinning a hoser's plan to swindle ye eh.

Y'all are a hoot!  Excellent job naming this maneuver, kayvent.

[onehair]

My aunt who I have mentioned before in this thread asked my late grandmother for $64000 to keep the nice aforementioned condo she was forced to move from so it doesn't surprise me.  Same aunt who ended up moving in with Grandma and making her miserable.

[alewpanda]

My family visited this week, and left this morning.  I'm now officially scared for my sister's future and fear she and her future husband will be featured here again .....

Husband to be has been in the picture for years, but I don't live near the rest of my family, so I don't know him well.  Sister has dated him for years and the two of them actually got officially engaged this week.

Future BIL is broke...knew that.  What I didn't know is that he is seriously in the hole too.  Has been a college student for 6ish years, theater degree (love theater, but I know how hard it will be to get jobs!), and has a year left still.  Future BIL has taken out nearly 60 thousand dollars in student loans, and isn't shy about sharing this fact.  In front of everyone in my home, he called an aunt and discussed her covering his auto insurance payment until NEXT MONTH because he couldn't afford the payment this month.  He and my sister talk about losing weight and buying expensive health supplements, but he also buys diet sodas, junk food, and eats out regularly.  While they were here future BIL actually asked my husband to cover a box of cold medicine for him (he started feeling sickly while in town), and my sister paid for it because my husband had already covered their ice cream/treats out the two nights before.  They are planning on marrying in May and asked my husband and I how much to expect my parents to contribute to the wedding.  Um, newsflash -- our parents contributed nothing but tux money and dress money to our siblings for my husband's and my wedding, we covered the rest ourselves.  My parents paid for a new laptop for my sister, even though she makes plenty of money.  She almost can't pay for her classes each semester, even though she lives at home and has almost no living expenses.  She and future BIL eat out all the time and spend money on legos and cute crap instead of school classes or saving for a replacement laptop when hers was obviously dying for 9 months. 

Its frightening...  My sister was always the most spendy of the siblings, but doesn't have debt (yet) from her schooling.  She almost failed to save for her classes (as noted) and my parents created an account in their name that they force her to give them money to fund each semester so she doesn't have to take school loans.  She seems perfectly ok with her future husband's horrible spending habits, and even more shockingly, my normally semi-frugal parents seem to at least be semi-enabling them.  They judge future BIL spending on junk, but have apparently bought him a mattress, bought my sister a laptop, and do the budgeting for my sister so that she has money for school.  They think they are helping, but I'm confidant their "help" isn't actually teaching either of these two anything at all! 

I'm concerned they will be the topic of future posts..... :(

[LeRainDrop]

I'm concerned they will be the topic of future posts..... :(

Uh oh, they probably will be!  How old are your sister and future BIL?  Is your sister the baby of the family?

[marty998]

I'm concerned they will be the topic of future posts..... :(

Hit me. I have unmet needs. Want more juicy tales!

(Hello my name is Marty and I'm a financial disaster porn addict).

[canuck_24]

I'm concerned they will be the topic of future posts..... :(

Uh oh, they probably will be!  How old are your sister and future BIL?  Is your sister the baby of the family?

Baby of the family = most likely to be a mindless spendypants?  You've got to be kidding me!  A pencil-stache such as yourself surely doesn't put stock into silly stereotypes?

[LeRainDrop]

I'm concerned they will be the topic of future posts..... :(

Uh oh, they probably will be!  How old are your sister and future BIL?  Is your sister the baby of the family?

Baby of the family = most likely to be a mindless spendypants?  You've got to be kidding me!  A pencil-stache such as yourself surely doesn't put stock into silly stereotypes?

Uh, no, asking about "baby of the family" because it sounds like the commenter is an older sibling and mentioned other siblings as having already married.  I was wondering if this spendy sister would be last kid or if the parents have any younger ones to get over the hurdle to being grown-up, too.  (Trust me, no stereotyping here!  I'm the oldest of three children, where my youngest brother and I are the fiscally responsible kids, and our middle brother has . . . struggled but made progress.)

[MgoSam]

I'm concerned they will be the topic of future posts..... :(

Uh oh, they probably will be!  How old are your sister and future BIL?  Is your sister the baby of the family?

Baby of the family = most likely to be a mindless spendypants?  You've got to be kidding me!  A pencil-stache such as yourself surely doesn't put stock into silly stereotypes?

I'm the baby in my family and I'm easily the most Mustachian...antecedent evidence and all that.

[I'm a red panda]

My in-laws are broke. We get debt collector calls about them constantly. They nearly lost their house a few years back.

MIL is visiting (grandma came too- she bought the tickets). She spent $80 on candy at the Ohare airport (it's Fannie may), made us go out and buy bottled water (our softened and filtered water won't due, she only drinks bottled at home) and was just bragging about how she has gotten her cable/internet bill down. Now it's ONLY $240 a month. She needs the sports channels and HBO.

Oh my god.

[gggggg]

My in-laws are broke. We get debt collector calls about them constantly. They nearly lost their house a few years back.

MIL is visiting (grandma came too- she bought the tickets). She spent $80 on candy at the Ohare airport (it's Fannie may), made us go out and buy bottled water (our softened and filtered water won't due, she only drinks bottled at home) and was just bragging about how she has gotten her cable/internet bill down. Now it's ONLY $240 a month. She needs the sports channels and HBO.

Oh my god.

Good lord, that is awful. Lots of folks have no clue about saving.

[I'm a red panda]

This isn't even about saving. It's about not spending like you're a freaking Kardashian!

[gggggg]

This isn't even about saving. It's about not spending like you're a freaking Kardashian!

It's sad. And they'll probably want someone to bail them out when they finally have an expense that pushes them over the edge.

[kayvent]

My in-laws are broke. We get debt collector calls about them constantly. They nearly lost their house a few years back.

MIL is visiting (grandma came too- she bought the tickets). She spent $80 on candy at the Ohare airport (it's Fannie may), made us go out and buy bottled water (our softened and filtered water won't due, she only drinks bottled at home) and was just bragging about how she has gotten her cable/internet bill down. Now it's ONLY $240 a month. She needs the sports channels and HBO.

Oh my god.

We have a world famous water treatment plant where I live. How the stores can sell bottle water confuses me. Especially since some of the water bottle companies just sell tap water from other towns......

[alewpanda]

I'm concerned they will be the topic of future posts..... :(

Uh oh, they probably will be!  How old are your sister and future BIL?  Is your sister the baby of the family?

Baby of the family = most likely to be a mindless spendypants?  You've got to be kidding me!  A pencil-stache such as yourself surely doesn't put stock into silly stereotypes?

Uh, no, asking about "baby of the family" because it sounds like the commenter is an older sibling and mentioned other siblings as having already married.  I was wondering if this spendy sister would be last kid or if the parents have any younger ones to get over the hurdle to being grown-up, too.  (Trust me, no stereotyping here!  I'm the oldest of three children, where my youngest brother and I are the fiscally responsible kids, and our middle brother has . . . struggled but made progress.)

Said Sister is actually the middle sister of 5 kids.  I am the oldest, and the only one married so far.   My parents have 2 younger kids (younger than engaged sister) in the home going through college (and paying their own way, as us older two did).   

Worst parts?   I can't claim "youth" or "immaturity" as the reasoning behind either my sister's or her fiance's poor habits.  Sister is 24; future BIL is 30....older than myself or my husband.   


2nd child (sister) -- paid for all schooling (part of it at home, part in a shared apartment) in cash, and bought a 2011 accord with cash as her graduation gift to herself.  She has a theater degree, but no debt...so she literally works at a coffee shop and does theater gigs for fun or money or whatever.  She has all the freedom in the world at this point because of her choices.

Only brother (4th child) -- Lives with parents, works, computer science degree.  Super frugal -- almost to a fault. 

Youngest (sister)  -- Immature still (but, shes 19), paid for a year certificate in cash, still has 7,000 in savings.  Wants to buy a car...went back to a shift manager position at a local restaurant.  Eventually wants to care for kids and foster in her own place.   


My middle sister is the strange one in the family I guess....

[Making Cookies]

Baby of the family = most likely to be a mindless spendypants?  You've got to be kidding me!  A pencil-stache such as yourself surely doesn't put stock into silly stereotypes?

I married the baby of her family and she is by far the most frugal of them all. Also the most professionally motivated too.

[StacheyStache]

Dad when I told him about ole' MMM and his annual spend rate:  "Under 30k per year???  That wouldn't cover my TAXES!  HA HA HA HA HA HA!"  Maybe this is renter ignorance talking, but I have no clue how this is possible as he lives in an only slightly clownish house in a relatively LCOL area...maybe it's his enormous boat? 

[Freedomin5]

First, a little background...SIL is struggling financially. She has never been good with money and currently lives with her parents (MIL & FIL). She is in her forties.

MIL recently asked us how much we had saved. When I hemmed and hawed and mentioned that we had enough saved, she suggested buying a co-op apartment "for investment purposes" about a 5 minute drive from where she lived, and letting SIL live there with her kid. She cited the crazy way house prices have been increasing each year (We live in a HCOL area) as a guarantee that this is a good investment. She then stated that SIL would pay us rent - like $300 per month. The unit costs $300,000, with a $500 per month co-op fee/HOA. And co-op rules state that only immediate family members can live in the unit. Plus we can't ever sell it or raise the rent or else SIL will be homeless. And this is supposed to be a good, solid investment? Somehow I don't think the numbers work out.

So I just told her we didn't have enough money to afford a $300,000 apartment.

[With This Herring]

Dad when I told him about ole' MMM and his annual spend rate:  "Under 30k per year???  That wouldn't cover my TAXES!  HA HA HA HA HA HA!"  Maybe this is renter ignorance talking, but I have no clue how this is possible as he lives in an only slightly clownish house in a relatively LCOL area...maybe it's his enormous boat?

Maybe your father is including his income and/or employment taxes, not just property taxes.  Also, you should suspect hyperbole.

[Miss Piggy]

She then stated that SIL would pay us rent - like $300 per month. The unit costs $300,000, with a $500 per month co-op fee/HOA. And co-op rules state that only immediate family members can live in the unit. Plus we can't ever sell it or raise the rent or else SIL will be homeless. And this is supposed to be a good, solid investment? Somehow I don't think the numbers work out.

So I just told her we didn't have enough money to afford a $300,000 apartment.

Doesn't exactly sound like a win-win to me.

[mtn]

Spent a few days on vacation with my BIL. Was with my FIL and MIL too--MIL has a lot of anti-mustachian tendancies, FIL overall is pretty frugal (although not as much as he needs to be). But BIL takes the cake. Orders the surf and turf. Upgrades the steak. 3 hard drinks waiting for our table. Goes to WalMart to get a DVD (a good move, I would have done it had he not) and comes back with the DVD and 3 shirts that he does not need. I found out that he eats out every day. Every day. The way he talks, and talks down on things, he is so obssessed with keeping ahead of the joneses. My FIL has a 21 foot boat. BIL says "frankly that is too small for [body of water that we're on, a bay of a bay of a great lake], but thats just my opinion". I tell him, no, it isn't--I was just in it in 6 foot swales 3 days ago and while it was slow, it was fine! He tells me that I haven't seen what he's seen.... Hmmm... I've been on this same body of water (well, actually the bigger bay, not the bay of a bay) my whole life, in smaller boats... Interesting.

Some other great quotes: 
"The 4Runner is ok, but dad really should have gotten a Lexus" 
"3 hours is too far to drive for a vacation home, but thats just my opinion"
"I'm getting internet up here. Next time I come up, I'm calling ahead--its only $50 a month and you can start and cancel at will" (he's up there about 4 days a year)
"In a year I'll be making $150k, then I'm going to fix this place up"
"We need to get a boat with a cabin, and keep it at the marina"

[mtn]

Dad when I told him about ole' MMM and his annual spend rate:  "Under 30k per year???  That wouldn't cover my TAXES!  HA HA HA HA HA HA!"  Maybe this is renter ignorance talking, but I have no clue how this is possible as he lives in an only slightly clownish house in a relatively LCOL area...maybe it's his enormous boat?

Maybe your father is including his income and/or employment taxes, not just property taxes.  Also, you should suspect hyperbole.

That was my thought. I've seen my parents income taxes and my entire pre-tax income wouldn't cover dads income tax bill the past couple of years (realization of deferred salary). His property taxes every year are in the $15k range, and it isn't exactly a clownhouse, although a very HCOL area. Dad's boat doesn't cost him more than $500 a year including registration, trailer registration, gas, and upkeep, so I'd doubt the boat gets your dad there.

Side note, Dad is not mustachian by most standards, but he is certainly frugal and very fiscally responsible. Call him about 10% consumerism, 75% Boglehead, and 15% Mustachian. I showed my dad MMM and he took this quote and emailed it to a bunch of folks as a health and beauty tip:
"The most important thing to note is that cutting your spending rate is much more powerful than increasing your income. The reason is that every permanent drop in your spending has a double effect:

it increases the amount of money you have left over to save each month
and it permanently decreases the amount you’ll need every month for the rest of your life"

[gaja]

Spent a few days on vacation with my BIL. Was with my FIL and MIL too--MIL has a lot of anti-mustachian tendancies, FIL overall is pretty frugal (although not as much as he needs to be). But BIL takes the cake. Orders the surf and turf. Upgrades the steak. 3 hard drinks waiting for our table. Goes to WalMart to get a DVD (a good move, I would have done it had he not) and comes back with the DVD and 3 shirts that he does not need. I found out that he eats out every day. Every day. The way he talks, and talks down on things, he is so obssessed with keeping ahead of the joneses. My FIL has a 21 foot boat. BIL says "frankly that is too small for [body of water that we're on, a bay of a bay of a great lake], but thats just my opinion". I tell him, no, it isn't--I was just in it in 6 foot swales 3 days ago and while it was slow, it was fine! He tells me that I haven't seen what he's seen.... Hmmm... I've been on this same body of water (well, actually the bigger bay, not the bay of a bay) my whole life, in smaller boats... Interesting.

My father has upgraded to a 24 foot boat now, but when I was growing up we used to go fishing in the North Atlantic with a 20 foot. Mainly in the fjords, but a couple of times we went out to the open sea. Sounds like you should take care on that lake, if a 21 foot is too small.

[FI-42]

...and letting SIL live there with her kid. She cited the crazy way house prices have been increasing each year (We live in a HCOL area) as a guarantee that this is a good investment.

Sounds like she's trying to pass the SIL problem on to you.  You said the right thing.  It might cause issues but you could also say you wouldn't get family involved in those levels of investments.

I'm of the opinion that if you require property prices to rise to make the investment work then it's not worthwhile.  The ROI on rental income needs to justify the investment.

[Tjat]

I would also expect that with the rent not covering HOA or taxes, the ROI wouldn't be too strong....

[MgoSam]

...and letting SIL live there with her kid. She cited the crazy way house prices have been increasing each year (We live in a HCOL area) as a guarantee that this is a good investment.

Sounds like she's trying to pass the SIL problem on to you.  You said the right thing.  It might cause issues but you could also say you wouldn't get family involved in those levels of investments.

I'm of the opinion that if you require property prices to rise to make the investment work then it's not worthwhile.  The ROI on rental income needs to justify the investment.

Yup!

Not to mention that your SIL would pay you less than the monthly HOA fees. Assuming you took out a mortgage, you would be earning far less than you would be paying each month. This doesn't even account for the cost of maintenance your property (likely less than a home, but still a significant amount) that you, as a landlord, would be required to get.

None of this makes any sense, financial or otherwise.

[mtn]

Spent a few days on vacation with my BIL. Was with my FIL and MIL too--MIL has a lot of anti-mustachian tendancies, FIL overall is pretty frugal (although not as much as he needs to be). But BIL takes the cake. Orders the surf and turf. Upgrades the steak. 3 hard drinks waiting for our table. Goes to WalMart to get a DVD (a good move, I would have done it had he not) and comes back with the DVD and 3 shirts that he does not need. I found out that he eats out every day. Every day. The way he talks, and talks down on things, he is so obssessed with keeping ahead of the joneses. My FIL has a 21 foot boat. BIL says "frankly that is too small for [body of water that we're on, a bay of a bay of a great lake], but thats just my opinion". I tell him, no, it isn't--I was just in it in 6 foot swales 3 days ago and while it was slow, it was fine! He tells me that I haven't seen what he's seen.... Hmmm... I've been on this same body of water (well, actually the bigger bay, not the bay of a bay) my whole life, in smaller boats... Interesting.

My father has upgraded to a 24 foot boat now, but when I was growing up we used to go fishing in the North Atlantic with a 20 foot. Mainly in the fjords, but a couple of times we went out to the open sea. Sounds like you should take care on that lake, if a 21 foot is too small.

To be clear, I've been boating on this lake (Green Bay, a bay on Lake Michigan) my whole life in a 14, 16, and 18 foot boat. My FIL's 21 footer handles it like a charm, even in really rough water. The occupants might be beat up, but the boat is just fine. Would I like a bigger boat? Sure. Is the 21 foot too small? Not by any stretch. And it should be noted that they use this on a Bay of Green Bay--basically a river. When you're never more than 1/8 mile from shore, how bad can it really be, assuming you still have gas? (And I've been in water that it took me 45 minutes to go said 1/8 mile. Not fun--the 14 foot boat in that was too small, but I learned don't take it out in that).

[kayvent]

First, a little background...SIL is struggling financially. She has never been good with money and currently lives with her parents (MIL & FIL). She is in her forties.

MIL recently asked us how much we had saved. When I hemmed and hawed and mentioned that we had enough saved, she suggested buying a co-op apartment "for investment purposes" about a 5 minute drive from where she lived, and letting SIL live there with her kid. She cited the crazy way house prices have been increasing each year (We live in a HCOL area) as a guarantee that this is a good investment. She then stated that SIL would pay us rent - like $300 per month. The unit costs $300,000, with a $500 per month co-op fee/HOA. And co-op rules state that only immediate family members can live in the unit. Plus we can't ever sell it or raise the rent or else SIL will be homeless. And this is supposed to be a good, solid investment? Somehow I don't think the numbers work out.

So I just told her we didn't have enough money to afford a $300,000 apartment.

It surprises me that one would even suggest that. The size of a gift people think they or others are entitled to is terrifying sometimes. One of the last things I'd think about asking my child & their spouse for would be a massive gift for my other child. Even if it doubles in price over the next ten years, my rough estimate is still that it is a 150+K gift to have her live their for that long. (I estimate that number with a 5% on either the cash spent or mortgage interest and the co-ep fees that exceed rent. We'll ignore maintenance and any tax implications.)

[TheGrimSqueaker]

The size of a gift people think they or others are entitled to is terrifying sometimes.

Key word there: "entitled". It's one thing to have a "don't ask, don't get" mentality, although in some cultures it's rude to askf or a gift, but what gets me is how people give themselves permission to behave when the answer is "no".

[Kitsune]

Baby of the family = most likely to be a mindless spendypants?  You've got to be kidding me!  A pencil-stache such as yourself surely doesn't put stock into silly stereotypes?

I married the baby of her family and she is by far the most frugal of them all. Also the most professionally motivated too.

In my experience (so: for my family and a few of my friends' families), it's not necessarily that the youngest is most likely to be a spendypants. It's that the parents of multiples who feel a duty to help their kids to adulthold (via college payments, cash gifts, and the like) are fairly cautious with the first kid, knowing that there are 2-3 more coming along that need the same amount of cash, and they want the cash to last. By the time the last one is asking for money, they're the only one asking for it, so there can be more to 'go around' if the parent is so inclined.

AKA: my parents helped me through university: I had used books, a set and very limited budget, a set timeline to graduate, and a very cheap apartment in an iffy part of town. My sister, 7 years later, spent an extra 2 years at school (switching programs), had a nice apartment in a decent part of town (exactly twice what mine had cost), and a credit card 'for extras and food', but she graduated and has since supported herself. My brother (11 years younger than me) is in the process of dropping-out-via-not-registering-for-classes from his 6th year of a 2-year program (to be fair, one year that was basically a wash due to mental health issues...). He lives in their house, they pay for his car/registration/gas/insurance, they buy all the food, they do his freakin' laundry. Let's just say the purse strings have loosened up as time has passed...

(Annoyingly, they shouldn't - my dad's salary is now significantly lower, my mom is disabled and has insurance payments until she's 65, and their retirement savings are... well, about what mine are, and I'm 32. So. I worry about their finances, for their sake.)

[LeRainDrop]

First, a little background...SIL is struggling financially. She has never been good with money and currently lives with her parents (MIL & FIL). She is in her forties.

MIL recently asked us how much we had saved. When I hemmed and hawed and mentioned that we had enough saved, she suggested buying a co-op apartment "for investment purposes" about a 5 minute drive from where she lived, and letting SIL live there with her kid. She cited the crazy way house prices have been increasing each year (We live in a HCOL area) as a guarantee that this is a good investment. She then stated that SIL would pay us rent - like $300 per month. The unit costs $300,000, with a $500 per month co-op fee/HOA. And co-op rules state that only immediate family members can live in the unit. Plus we can't ever sell it or raise the rent or else SIL will be homeless. And this is supposed to be a good, solid investment? Somehow I don't think the numbers work out.

So I just told her we didn't have enough money to afford a $300,000 apartment.

It surprises me that one would even suggest that. The size of a gift people think they or others are entitled to is terrifying sometimes. One of the last things I'd think about asking my child & their spouse for would be a massive gift for my other child. Even if it doubles in price over the next ten years, my rough estimate is still that it is a 150+K gift to have her live their for that long. (I estimate that number with a 5% on either the cash spent or mortgage interest and the co-ep fees that exceed rent. We'll ignore maintenance and any tax implications.)

I agree.  That is super ballsy of your parents to ask you to do this.  I think after that, I would have had a talk with them that I was concerned about their financial future if they actually thought this was a good investment.

[Making Cookies]

(Annoyingly, they shouldn't - my dad's salary is now significantly lower, my mom is disabled and has insurance payments until she's 65, and their retirement savings are... well, about what mine are, and I'm 32. So. I worry about their finances, for their sake.)

And you ought to be concerned b/c they could wind up reliant on you for support in part or whole if they have spent their retirement funds giving your sibling an easy life...

[Kitsune]

(Annoyingly, they shouldn't - my dad's salary is now significantly lower, my mom is disabled and has insurance payments until she's 65, and their retirement savings are... well, about what mine are, and I'm 32. So. I worry about their finances, for their sake.)

And you ought to be concerned b/c they could wind up reliant on you for support in part or whole if they have spent their retirement funds giving your sibling an easy life...

Yep, that's my concern.

(To be clear: it's not a "what they gave me vs what they gave my siblings" - they're free to distribute their money as they please. It's a "I can't support you in the lavish which you are accustomed and can't afford, and am concerned for your well-being in 10 years.")

[LeRainDrop]

(To be clear: it's not a "what they gave me vs what they gave my siblings" - they're free to distribute their money as they please. It's a "I can't support you in the lavish which you are accustomed and can't afford, and am concerned for your well-being in 10 years.")

I'm in the same boat :-(

[TexasRunner]

Hopefully mine get better.
Following cause this thread is hilarious :)

[AlanStache]

(To be clear: it's not a "what they gave me vs what they gave my siblings" - they're free to distribute their money as they please. It's a "I can't support you in the lavish which you are accustomed and can't afford, and am concerned for your well-being in 10 years.")

I'm in the same boat :-(

It may not be 10 years and 10 years can pass quicker than you would think. 

[gaja]

Spent a few days on vacation with my BIL. Was with my FIL and MIL too--MIL has a lot of anti-mustachian tendancies, FIL overall is pretty frugal (although not as much as he needs to be). But BIL takes the cake. Orders the surf and turf. Upgrades the steak. 3 hard drinks waiting for our table. Goes to WalMart to get a DVD (a good move, I would have done it had he not) and comes back with the DVD and 3 shirts that he does not need. I found out that he eats out every day. Every day. The way he talks, and talks down on things, he is so obssessed with keeping ahead of the joneses. My FIL has a 21 foot boat. BIL says "frankly that is too small for [body of water that we're on, a bay of a bay of a great lake], but thats just my opinion". I tell him, no, it isn't--I was just in it in 6 foot swales 3 days ago and while it was slow, it was fine! He tells me that I haven't seen what he's seen.... Hmmm... I've been on this same body of water (well, actually the bigger bay, not the bay of a bay) my whole life, in smaller boats... Interesting.

My father has upgraded to a 24 foot boat now, but when I was growing up we used to go fishing in the North Atlantic with a 20 foot. Mainly in the fjords, but a couple of times we went out to the open sea. Sounds like you should take care on that lake, if a 21 foot is too small.

To be clear, I've been boating on this lake (Green Bay, a bay on Lake Michigan) my whole life in a 14, 16, and 18 foot boat. My FIL's 21 footer handles it like a charm, even in really rough water. The occupants might be beat up, but the boat is just fine. Would I like a bigger boat? Sure. Is the 21 foot too small? Not by any stretch. And it should be noted that they use this on a Bay of Green Bay--basically a river. When you're never more than 1/8 mile from shore, how bad can it really be, assuming you still have gas? (And I've been in water that it took me 45 minutes to go said 1/8 mile. Not fun--the 14 foot boat in that was too small, but I learned don't take it out in that).

Sorry, forgot to change to the sarcasm font. :)

[UKMustache]

(To be clear: it's not a "what they gave me vs what they gave my siblings" - they're free to distribute their money as they please. It's a "I can't support you in the lavish which you are accustomed and can't afford, and am concerned for your well-being in 10 years.")

I'm in the same boat :-(

Is the boat at least 21 ft ?

[Kitsune]

(To be clear: it's not a "what they gave me vs what they gave my siblings" - they're free to distribute their money as they please. It's a "I can't support you in the lavish which you are accustomed and can't afford, and am concerned for your well-being in 10 years.")

I'm in the same boat :-(

Is the boat at least 21 ft ?

It's a lovely boat, with the potential to start leaking at any point.

[Freedomin5]

First, a little background...SIL is struggling financially. She has never been good with money and currently lives with her parents (MIL & FIL). She is in her forties.

MIL recently asked us how much we had saved. When I hemmed and hawed and mentioned that we had enough saved, she suggested buying a co-op apartment "for investment purposes" about a 5 minute drive from where she lived, and letting SIL live there with her kid. She cited the crazy way house prices have been increasing each year (We live in a HCOL area) as a guarantee that this is a good investment. She then stated that SIL would pay us rent - like $300 per month. The unit costs $300,000, with a $500 per month co-op fee/HOA. And co-op rules state that only immediate family members can live in the unit. Plus we can't ever sell it or raise the rent or else SIL will be homeless. And this is supposed to be a good, solid investment? Somehow I don't think the numbers work out.

So I just told her we didn't have enough money to afford a $300,000 apartment.

It surprises me that one would even suggest that. The size of a gift people think they or others are entitled to is terrifying sometimes. One of the last things I'd think about asking my child & their spouse for would be a massive gift for my other child. Even if it doubles in price over the next ten years, my rough estimate is still that it is a 150+K gift to have her live their for that long. (I estimate that number with a 5% on either the cash spent or mortgage interest and the co-ep fees that exceed rent. We'll ignore maintenance and any tax implications.)

I agree.  That is super ballsy of your parents to ask you to do this.  I think after that, I would have had a talk with them that I was concerned about their financial future if they actually thought this was a good investment.

Oh, I'm quite sure they can do basic math and figure out this is NOT a good investment. MIL has a history of making inappropriate suggestions/comments (such as saying that I married her son so that I could steal all his money - never mind that we have been married 10 years and I earn significantly more than he does). I think she is genuinely worried about SIL's situation, and wants to make sure she is well cared for when they are gone. Still, it's not my job at this point in time to take care of two of her children (I'm already responsible for her son, seeing as I'm married to him...LOL), and besides, they have enough saved up to provide for SIL for the rest of her life, if she is careful with spending. Obviously, if SIL runs out of her inheritance money 20 or 30 years from now, we will step in to support her. We are not going to leave her homeless and starving. We are also prepared to fully fund SIL's kid's university education, though we are unwilling to pay for his latest gaming and electronics needs.

[zephyr911]

Thought I posted this yesterday, but maybe it timed out.

Mom has been on SS for a few months and seems to have leveled out financially, though she's never far from the edge. During our family reunion a couple weeks ago, she mentioned how this kind dentist was giving her a great deal on some overdue work: roughly a 50% discount, plus a payment plan (none of that nasty "payment due when services rendered" stuff). Except, payment WAS due in full. And because I'm a big-ass sucka, I had her use the emergency card we gave her a while back.

She says she can repay approximately 1/3 by the due date, so I'll end up fronting the rest out of cash flow, at a time when every spare $ should be pushing me toward next year's transition, and some nasty surprises this summer have already hindered my investment goals.

She's never abused our generosity, per se; the card has only been used a few times, and always repaid quickly, unless we specifically called it a gift in advance. But I'm a little put out by how this went down, and this is day 3 since I texted her asking what went wrong. Crickets. May be forced to re-evaluate our stance on being her safety net. It sucks because we have a great relationship and I would like to always be there for her... but she seems to do less for herself than she could, and I fear this will become a pattern where we increasingly do the adult thing for her because she couldn't/wouldn't/whatever. Gah... :(

[canuck_24]

(To be clear: it's not a "what they gave me vs what they gave my siblings" - they're free to distribute their money as they please. It's a "I can't support you in the lavish which you are accustomed and can't afford, and am concerned for your well-being in 10 years.")

I'm in the same boat :-(

Is the boat at least 21 ft ?

It's a lovely boat, with the potential to start leaking at any point.

Ditto.  This is one of my fears regarding FIRE. 

My parents are in their early 60s and are just finishing paying off the mortgage on a dilapidated mobile home (it needs to be bull-dozed in my opinion).
Dad works at a local technical college, and I have no idea he has socked away; he alternates from telling me he has nothing to telling me he has enough to cover them for retirement any time Mom feels like stopping work.  Mom has zero retirement savings and works two part time jobs. 
[Side Rant: She has zero savings period actually, for example: she drives 30min into town every day for work, she needs a reliable vehicle.  A couple of years ago I came home from overseas to find her car falling apart, and mechanically unsound (I can't remember the exact details, but well over 300,000km, many parts needing to be replaced, etc).  She has had a couple of lemons when buying used, so in recent history has only purchased new cars, including this one about ten years ago.  She didn’t want to car shop on her own, didn’t want to put anyone out by asking for their help, and no one stepped in to assist (the car she was currently driving my dad picked out, and she was unhappy with it from day one, so there’s some underlying drama there).  So as soon as I got home we started shopping: with her insisting she needed a new car and me insisting it was a waste of money.  We eventually found a little hatchback in great condition with low mileage that she really likes and we got a decent price on at $8000 (more than what I hear a lot of people on here commenting their vehicles cost, but I needed the reassurance this would get her to and from town reliably and without requiring any mechanical work).  I paid for it.  She had less than $1000 in savings, and had outstanding credit card bills to pay.  She has been transferring money to me to pay me back little by little over the past couple of years; she doesn’t know it, but all of it is going right back into savings so that there’s cash available should she need it.]

I have two older siblings, both of whom have been borrowing money from parents and I for years. My sister seems to be starting to make better financial decisions now that she is mid-thirties, but has a history of not paying bills, making silly purchases, etc.  My brother is nearly in financial crisis; some of it is his own making, some of it is circumstances.  I have a hard time finding the best way to help.  For example: he couldn't pay $180 for his kid's school fees for last year (he mentioned it in passing, he did not ask me for money, but I stepped in and paid this one), but he bought the same child a snowboard for Christmas.  I understand wanting to give my nephew a good Christmas (it has been a hard year), and for all I know it could even have been purchased from the classifieds, but it looked new.  But it grates on my nerves to see educational costs set aside in exchange for buying stuff.  There are other options to create a good Christmas.

Anyways, coming around to the point... Neither of my siblings will be supporting my parents in retirement.  I don't think that either of my parents will be supporting themselves in retirement.  I have always been a saver, and have been teased about it by my family for years.  My husband and I are really looking forward to being able to FIRE, and intend to do so in our thirties (in about eight years), but the unknown costs of potentially supporting my parents entirely, while still looking out for my siblings... I don't even know where to start calculating those costs!  I have tried to discuss this with my parents, but don't get straight answers from my dad, and get waved off by my mom (when I persist she gets upset and shuts down, so I still get nothing).

It is nice to know I'm not the only mustachian in this position.  Thanks.  :)

[alewpanda]

Thought I posted this yesterday, but maybe it timed out.

Mom has been on SS for a few months and seems to have leveled out financially, though she's never far from the edge. During our family reunion a couple weeks ago, she mentioned how this kind dentist was giving her a great deal on some overdue work: roughly a 50% discount, plus a payment plan (none of that nasty "payment due when services rendered" stuff). Except, payment WAS due in full. And because I'm a big-ass sucka, I had her use the emergency card we gave her a while back.

She says she can repay approximately 1/3 by the due date, so I'll end up fronting the rest out of cash flow, at a time when every spare $ should be pushing me toward next year's transition, and some nasty surprises this summer have already hindered my investment goals.

She's never abused our generosity, per se; the card has only been used a few times, and always repaid quickly, unless we specifically called it a gift in advance. But I'm a little put out by how this went down, and this is day 3 since I texted her asking what went wrong. Crickets. May be forced to re-evaluate our stance on being her safety net. It sucks because we have a great relationship and I would like to always be there for her... but she seems to do less for herself than she could, and I fear this will become a pattern where we increasingly do the adult thing for her because she couldn't/wouldn't/whatever. Gah... :(

This is why I could never "plan" or "suggest" being a family member's safety net...particularly in a way that they know you are.

We help my MIL out occasionally.  And thats fine.  But she had to come ask or talk to us about it each time.  Maybe its cruel, but hopefully it makes her take a second look at what she is asking for and consider the actual need behind it.  I don't expect her to beg -- but I do expect us to talk it out and find out what exactly the money is for and why our help is needed.  Each time it happens, we talk about ways to budget and set aside savings so it has to happen less often, and I'm willing to ask for her to sit through that discussion each time, even if it doesn't lead anywhere....We couldn't afford to hand her a credit card -- that card would be maxed out so fast!  And the damage would be done before we could talk about why and what its for.....

[RetiredAt63]

Yikes these parents!  I am on the other side, I'm the retired parent, and I have always planned my retirement so that I will not be a financial burden on my DD.  I hope that if we are geographically close she will be able to help with doctor's appointments and such like, but $?  That is my responsibility.  I am impressed by how much some of you are willing to help with parents and siblings, but are you in fact enabling their bad behaviour, because at least some of the time you help with $?  I know some cultures look at money as family money, and if it is because the whole family sacrificed to get one person into a higher earning situation that makes perfect sense, but otherwise?  My sister went into a higher paying career than I did, and I never expected her to fund me in any way.

[Kitsune]

Yikes these parents!  I am on the other side, I'm the retired parent, and I have always planned my retirement so that I will not be a financial burden on my DD.  I hope that if we are geographically close she will be able to help with doctor's appointments and such like, but $?  That is my responsibility.  I am impressed by how much some of you are willing to help with parents and siblings, but are you in fact enabling their bad behaviour, because at least some of the time you help with $?  I know some cultures look at money as family money, and if it is because the whole family sacrificed to get one person into a higher earning situation that makes perfect sense, but otherwise?  My sister went into a higher paying career than I did, and I never expected her to fund me in any way.

Well, there's also a point where it's your parents and you love them, and, while they SHOULD have planned better, they didn't, so you're stuck dealing with the situation at hand.

For example, my parents pay for a housecleaner because my mother is already at the physio every 2 weeks to maintain the mobility-through-pain she has, and my dad took on extra hours as a pharmacist to stash away SOME money (and he makes 90$/HR and pays the housekeeper 18$/HR, so good call). Ok. But then what happens when they can't pay the housecleaner, or if my dads health takes a crash? Mom can't do it without impacting the rest of her mobility. So, as their kids, while we can agree that a pharmacist should have saved more than 100 k total on years of 250k salaries, well... They didn't. So we can let our elderly parents live in squalor, we can do the cleaning ourselves on top of our own houses/kids/spouses/jobs/lives, or we can pay. Objectively, once you reach that point, what are your options?

[Making Cookies]

These are all good reasons to keep your income and savings/investments a secret. You might be ABLE to support these other people who make spendy pants choices but you shouldn't HAVE to. I guess post-FIRE it might be harder to hide but I'd be mumbling something like "fixed-income" and not much to spare. The spenders wouldn't necessarily need to know you went mtn climbing overseas for two weeks would they?

I'm all for helping those who can't help themselves due to illness or some other unfortunate spin of life's roulette wheel. I'm not going to let anyone spend all their money and mine too b/c their priorities are "off balance".

I worry about a portion of my extended family. Family member is finally retired (late) and has plenty of money now but the shopping therapy is showing itself a little again. Not sure long term how this will play out. We've resisted talking about money lest our income be called upon to become their (collective extended family) income.

[Kitsune]

Yeah, see, I'd rather work an extra year or two, or maintain a part-time job, to ensure that the people I love have a place to live that's clean, and that they have good food to eat.

Mind you, I'm not talking about maintaining their current spending - I'm not subsidizing shopping trips or new cars or whatever. But for the rest of it, I can't stand back and be like, well, my parents made shitty choices so I'm gonna hoard my money for early retirement and let my mother experience debilitating physical pain to maintain a sanitary standard of living. Can't do it. Won't do it. Some things are what money is for.

[canuck_24]

Yeah, see, I'd rather work an extra year or two, or maintain a part-time job, to ensure that the people I love have a place to live that's clean, and that they have good food to eat.

Mind you, I'm not talking about maintaining their current spending - I'm not subsidizing shopping trips or new cars or whatever. But for the rest of it, I can't stand back and be like, well, my parents made shitty choices so I'm gonna hoard my money for early retirement and let my mother experience debilitating physical pain to maintain a sanitary standard of living. Can't do it. Won't do it. Some things are what money is for.

Yep. Agreed.

I do wish I had less unknowns about it though, so that I could brace myself for that extra year or two of work.