Relatives who just don't get it

[Rubic]

And here's more from the "people can't be trusted" department:

In 1977, my mother's brother came to stay with us.  He'd gotten divorced and needed a place to stay while he got back on his feet (or so the story goes).  My father loaned him some tools so he could work as a mechanic. Things went okay for a week or two.  Then he talked Dad into cosigning a loan for $1,300 to consolidate his debts.  Of course, we can all see where this is headed: the deadbeat skips town without ever making a payment, taking the tools and leaving my family stuck with his debt.

We didn't see much of him afterwards.  He never did send any money.   He'd come by occasionally during the day to visit Mom when he knew Dad would be away.  I don't think I've seen him in forty years to say more than "hi".  And I'm pretty much okay with that.

Sounds like a relatively cheap way to get rid of a shitty person.

+1

In my younger days, I would sometimes extend a $5, $10, or even $20 loan to one of these miscreants.  Essentially I was buying my way into turning them down for future advances based on "You never paid me back for the $X I loaned you last year!"

Delivered with an overwrought sense of outrage, I usually managed to get them out of my life forever.

[infogoon]

In my younger days, I would sometimes extend a $5, $10, or even $20 loan to one of these miscreants.  Essentially I was buying my way into turning them down for future advances based on "You never paid me back for the $X I loaned you last year!"

Delivered with an overwrought sense of outrage, I usually managed to get them out of my life forever.

I think there's a scene like this in the movie _A Bronx Tale_, where the older man tells his protegee "If you loan someone twenty bucks and never see him again, it was worth it."

[DutchV]

And here's more from the "people can't be trusted" department:

In 1977, my mother's brother came to stay with us.  He'd gotten divorced and needed a place to stay while he got back on his feet (or so the story goes).  My father loaned him some tools so he could work as a mechanic. Things went okay for a week or two.  Then he talked Dad into cosigning a loan for $1,300 to consolidate his debts.  Of course, we can all see where this is headed: the deadbeat skips town without ever making a payment, taking the tools and leaving my family stuck with his debt.

We didn't see much of him afterwards.  He never did send any money.   He'd come by occasionally during the day to visit Mom when he knew Dad would be away.  I don't think I've seen him in forty years to say more than "hi".  And I'm pretty much okay with that.

Sounds like a relatively cheap way to get rid of a shitty person.

He was the same uncle that was told to go into the Air Force to avoid jail.  I'm sure that Dad had his arm twisted pretty hard by Mom before he signed the loan. 

[MgoSam]

In my younger days, I would sometimes extend a $5, $10, or even $20 loan to one of these miscreants.  Essentially I was buying my way into turning them down for future advances based on "You never paid me back for the $X I loaned you last year!"

Delivered with an overwrought sense of outrage, I usually managed to get them out of my life forever.

I think there's a scene like this in the movie _A Bronx Tale_, where the older man tells his protegee "If you loan someone twenty bucks and never see him again, it was worth it."

I saw that line on a poster inside a Jimmy John's many years ago. It's great to hear it's original source.

[Sibley]

I got one, but I imagine it's a fairly common scenario.

When my now husband and I were engaged, a lot of my female relatives were anxious to see 'the rock'. When I explained that I didn't get an engagement ring because I rarely wear jewelry and think diamonds are a waste of money, most of them waved that off and said that if he really loved me then he would show it by getting the biggest diamond he could afford, even if I said I didn't want one. The fact that he didn't buy one against my wishes meant he didn't really care about me. My SIL in particular was so insistent that I even started to doubt him a little bit, until I remembered how scary my father is and no man would propose marriage after meeting him unless he was serious.

Sadly, I think I lost a fair bit of status in their eyes by not having some bling.

I'm glad you feel this way. I absolutely hate the diamond notion and if I find someone that I want to marry I hope she agrees. If not, I'll likely bite the bullet and buy her a ring.

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

The LOTR rings are awesome! (says the person with a cat named Arwen).

[Sibley]

DW and I talked extensively about this, and she actually talked me out of spending $$$ on a ring. Instead we dropped $$$ on a trip to see her family, a few days in the rain forest, and a few other priceless experiences. We got $35 LOTR costume rings that we love... hehehe

I've never had so much nerd respect for another human being. Well done, sir.

+ 1 to this. Someone brings me to the Green Dragon and proposes with an LOTR ring and I'm done, I'm saying yes.

I only know one Green Dragon...are you in Lancaster County?

It's from LOTR... I didn't know there actually WAS one in real life. I must go!

Ach! so sorry...quite different from LOTR! It's a huge swap meet/farmer's market/auction in PA.

eta: and, it's dry as well, sad to say...

We have a Green Dragon here in Boston. Lovely little spot with live music and all.

Frodo and his compatriots wouldn't be out of place either, always an interesting crowd. Used to go a fair amount in my Pre-Mustachian phase.

I'm going. Promise.

[nouveauRiche]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises...

[Pooperman]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises...

Sage house advice, like 'buy more than you think you can afford.' Thanks mom.

[Silverwood]

Sooo just found out that my brother bought a brand new dirt bike. She got a $5000 engagement ring and he's  been complaining ever since about what he gets.  So he went out and got this. Also on credit. He had to rent a truck to get it and then didn't return it in time and had to pay another $100.

He lives in the city so not sure how he's going to get it out to the country to ride it. I expect a truck purchase any day now.

He got mad when asked  what he would do if he hurt himself and couldn't work or if he thought that his soon to be wife and 14 month old child would be enjoying the bike as well.

They complain about having no money and she wants an extravagant wedding. 

[Salivanth]

In a Skype conversation with my father. I live in Australia, so it's currently winter.

"Hey Salivanth, I thought your room had air conditioning?"

"It does."

"Then why are you wearing a beanie?" (winter hat)

"It's off at the moment."

"Why?"

"...Because I have clothes?"

I mean, it's no "wasting thousands of dollars", but it's rejecting something that I consider not even Mustachian, just sheer common sense. If you're cold, put on warmer clothes. If you're still cold, turn on the heater. That seems about as frugal as tips like "Don't leave your fridge open while you cook something". Why would you do anything else?

[bgsnyder]

My uncle thinks everything is rigged against him, has filed for bankruptcy twice, drinks like a fish, and smokes like a chimney. He told my mom "Saving for retirement is idiotic at best". He recently got on government disability and now claims he retired early.

[Dezrah]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises [to avoid paying more taxes]...

I actually know of someone who did this... sort of.  He went to prison for some white collar crime.  When he was released on probation, he was required to pay a percentage of his paychecks above a certain amount back to the prison system (for room and board? I don't know.  It wasn't compensation to victims or anything like that.).  He turned down a good paying job as a construction manager because it wasn't going to be that much more for him and he just wanted to spite the prison.  It didn't even affect his career because as soon as his payback period was over he started his own general contracting business.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises [to avoid paying more taxes]...

I actually know of someone who did this... sort of.  He went to prison for some white collar crime.  When he was released on probation, he was required to pay a percentage of his paychecks above a certain amount back to the prison system (for room and board? I don't know.  It wasn't compensation to victims or anything like that.).  He turned down a good paying job as a construction manager because it wasn't going to be that much more for him and he just wanted to spite the prison.  It didn't even affect his career because as soon as his payback period was over he started his own general contracting business.

I've also met people who deliberately keep their incomes low or work under the table to avoid paying child support.

[Kitsune]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises [to avoid paying more taxes]...

I actually know of someone who did this... sort of.  He went to prison for some white collar crime.  When he was released on probation, he was required to pay a percentage of his paychecks above a certain amount back to the prison system (for room and board? I don't know.  It wasn't compensation to victims or anything like that.).  He turned down a good paying job as a construction manager because it wasn't going to be that much more for him and he just wanted to spite the prison.  It didn't even affect his career because as soon as his payback period was over he started his own general contracting business.

I've also met people who deliberately keep their incomes low or work under the table to avoid paying child support.

Which says a hell of a lot about their character, if they're willing to deliberately lower their income to ensure that their kid gets less.

[mtn]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises [to avoid paying more taxes]...

I actually know of someone who did this... sort of.  He went to prison for some white collar crime.  When he was released on probation, he was required to pay a percentage of his paychecks above a certain amount back to the prison system (for room and board? I don't know.  It wasn't compensation to victims or anything like that.).  He turned down a good paying job as a construction manager because it wasn't going to be that much more for him and he just wanted to spite the prison.  It didn't even affect his career because as soon as his payback period was over he started his own general contracting business.

I've also met people who deliberately keep their incomes low or work under the table to avoid paying child support.

Which says a hell of a lot about their character, if they're willing to deliberately lower their income to ensure that their kid gets less.

Usually. I did work with a guy that shared with me his finances--between alimony and child support, he was forced to give up cigarettes, retirement contributions, AND take work under the table to afford a 1 bedroom apartment that barely had enough room for his kids to stay in when he had weekend visits :(. The ex got the house, and between alimony and child support over 75% of his income and didn't work.

[WGH]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises [to avoid paying more taxes]...

I actually know of someone who did this... sort of.  He went to prison for some white collar crime.  When he was released on probation, he was required to pay a percentage of his paychecks above a certain amount back to the prison system (for room and board? I don't know.  It wasn't compensation to victims or anything like that.).  He turned down a good paying job as a construction manager because it wasn't going to be that much more for him and he just wanted to spite the prison.  It didn't even affect his career because as soon as his payback period was over he started his own general contracting business.

I've also met people who deliberately keep their incomes low or work under the table to avoid paying child support.

Which says a hell of a lot about their character, if they're willing to deliberately lower their income to ensure that their kid gets less.

Usually. I did work with a guy that shared with me his finances--between alimony and child support, he was forced to give up cigarettes, retirement contributions, AND take work under the table to afford a 1 bedroom apartment that barely had enough room for his kids to stay in when he had weekend visits :(. The ex got the house, and between alimony and child support over 75% of his income and didn't work.

Working in payroll I've seen this a few times as well. Checks garnished for 75% or more of the income. Problem when couples split is they now have two rents, utilities, etc. when they were likely living paycheck to paycheck before with one. Fault goes both ways it's just a sucky financial situation when people split up.

[Nederstash]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises...

Sage house advice, like 'buy more than you think you can afford.' Thanks mom.

A friend of mine also pulled the 'higher tax returns' card to justify a higher mortgage. But she teaches Economics in high school... Although she did seem to understand my point when I offered a rebuttal.

[mustachepungoeshere]

In a Skype conversation with my father. I live in Australia, so it's currently winter.

"Hey Salivanth, I thought your room had air conditioning?"

"It does."

"Then why are you wearing a beanie?" (winter hat)

"It's off at the moment."

"Why?"

"...Because I have clothes?"

I had a similar conversation with my mum after I made the mistake of mentioning on Facetime that my apartment was cold.

Her: What about your heater?
Me: Eh, I'm seeing how long I can go without it.
Her: *rolls eyes*

(The apartment was cold. I was fine, thanks to thermals, a hoodie, uggies and a throw rug. Fetching, I know, but no-one was around to see it. :) )

[K-ice]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises [to avoid paying more taxes]...

I actually know of someone who did this... sort of.  He went to prison for some white collar crime.  When he was released on probation, he was required to pay a percentage of his paychecks above a certain amount back to the prison system (for room and board? I don't know.  It wasn't compensation to victims or anything like that.).  He turned down a good paying job as a construction manager because it wasn't going to be that much more for him and he just wanted to spite the prison.  It didn't even affect his career because as soon as his payback period was over he started his own general contracting business.

I've also met people who deliberately keep their incomes low or work under the table to avoid paying child support.

Which says a hell of a lot about their character, if they're willing to deliberately lower their income to ensure that their kid gets less.

A relative's husband was like this with his first ex wife.

Guess what? Divorce number 2 is under way & he is doing everything possible to not support his second Family.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises [to avoid paying more taxes]...

I actually know of someone who did this... sort of.  He went to prison for some white collar crime.  When he was released on probation, he was required to pay a percentage of his paychecks above a certain amount back to the prison system (for room and board? I don't know.  It wasn't compensation to victims or anything like that.).  He turned down a good paying job as a construction manager because it wasn't going to be that much more for him and he just wanted to spite the prison.  It didn't even affect his career because as soon as his payback period was over he started his own general contracting business.

I've also met people who deliberately keep their incomes low or work under the table to avoid paying child support.

Which says a hell of a lot about their character, if they're willing to deliberately lower their income to ensure that their kid gets less.

A relative's husband was like this with his first ex wife.

Guess what? Divorce number 2 is under way & he is doing everything possible to not support his second Family.

How anybody could choose to make a baby with someone who doesn't support his or her existing kids, I can't fathom. Do they not understand that they too will be abandoned (with one or more kids to care for) the second it seems convenient?

[MgoSam]

Well, you know, if you buy a bigger house with a larger mortgage, you can get a larger tax deduction from your mortgage interest!  *nodnod*

(advice from my dad.  I don't get his thing about tax deductions, but he seems to think that if you spend more to get a bigger tax deduction, you somehow come out ahead)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this has been said but I always counter with "I could also donate an extra $10K to charity to get about a $3K tax break." 

I knew someone who didn't want to invest in taxable accounts because she didn't want to pay more taxes.  By the same logic, she should turn down all pay raises [to avoid paying more taxes]...

I actually know of someone who did this... sort of.  He went to prison for some white collar crime.  When he was released on probation, he was required to pay a percentage of his paychecks above a certain amount back to the prison system (for room and board? I don't know.  It wasn't compensation to victims or anything like that.).  He turned down a good paying job as a construction manager because it wasn't going to be that much more for him and he just wanted to spite the prison.  It didn't even affect his career because as soon as his payback period was over he started his own general contracting business.

I've also met people who deliberately keep their incomes low or work under the table to avoid paying child support.

Which says a hell of a lot about their character, if they're willing to deliberately lower their income to ensure that their kid gets less.

A relative's husband was like this with his first ex wife.

Guess what? Divorce number 2 is under way & he is doing everything possible to not support his second Family.

How anybody could choose to make a baby with someone who doesn't support his or her existing kids, I can't fathom. Do they not understand that they too will be abandoned (with one or more kids to care for) the second it seems convenient?

I think the same thing about people that cheat on their wife/husband and later marry the person they cheated with.

[Papa Mustache]

...all while lecturing the rest of us on religion, politics and morality... ;)

[MgoSam]

...all while lecturing the rest of us on religion, politics and morality... ;)

I figured that was assumed.

[mtn]

A guy I used to work with claimed he knew someone who upon getting divorced proceeded to sell off all his worldly possessions for next to nothing.  Then he took a job as a chef in a hotel and basically just worked for room and board.  What little he got paid was under the table.  So he was destitute just so that he wouldn't have to pay his ex-wife alimony.
I don't know if that is urban legend or what but talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Maybe not though--I know that if it wasn't for my wife and eventual family, I'd be working a job that would probably only support me.

[Metric Mouse]

How anybody could choose to make a baby with someone who doesn't support his or her existing kids, I can't fathom. Do they not understand that they too will be abandoned (with one or more kids to care for) the second it seems convenient?

I think the same thing about people that cheat on their wife/husband and later marry the person they cheated with.

I guess I would assume that cheating on a past partner occurs for reasons that do not exist with the current partner. If a past partner was cheated on because they were abusive or lazy or works nights or something, and the new one is kind and hardworking and around during more traditional hours, there may be less incentive to cheat on them.  Just a thought.  No idea on abandoning kids; probably not much redemption there...

[deadlymonkey]

A guy I used to work with claimed he knew someone who upon getting divorced proceeded to sell off all his worldly possessions for next to nothing.  Then he took a job as a chef in a hotel and basically just worked for room and board.  What little he got paid was under the table.  So he was destitute just so that he wouldn't have to pay his ex-wife alimony.
I don't know if that is urban legend or what but talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'm sure this happens sometimes but I've never met anyone with direct knowledge of the event occurring.  The biggest one I am familiar with is the Army soldier (or Navy depending on version) who resigns at 19 years to avoid letting his ex wife get any of his retirement payments for life.

[gillstone]

Chapter 3,239 of my older sister and her "gentleman friend". Rather than save money to do the following:

• Get their own apartment rather than live with friends
• Have car insurance
• Complete the adoption of their daughter (long story)
• Pay the nine months of back rent owed to our uncle
• Have an emergency fund

They have opted to plan their eventual wedding. 

This sounds lovely and probably expensive.  However, they do have time to plan.  It turns out the "gentleman friend" is not actually completely divorced yet from the last wife. 

[onlykelsey]

Chapter 3,239 of my older sister and her "gentleman friend". Rather than save money to do the following:

• Get their own apartment rather than live with friends
• Have car insurance
• Complete the adoption of their daughter (long story)
• Pay the nine months of back rent owed to our uncle
• Have an emergency funds

They have opted to plan their eventual wedding. 

This sounds lovely and probably expensive.  However, they do have time to plan.  It turns out the "gentleman friend" is not actually completely divorced yet from the last wife.

Oh, my sister has a gentleman friend like that, too!  and by "not actually completely divorced" I mean "no one has even FILED for divorce".

[ringer707]

A guy I used to work with claimed he knew someone who upon getting divorced proceeded to sell off all his worldly possessions for next to nothing.  Then he took a job as a chef in a hotel and basically just worked for room and board.  What little he got paid was under the table.  So he was destitute just so that he wouldn't have to pay his ex-wife alimony.
I don't know if that is urban legend or what but talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Oh this definitely happens. I've spent a lot of time in divorce court. Multiple cases of men who will immediately quit their jobs when they split from their wives and try to take low-paying jobs so they don't have to pay spousal support. However, in my state, the amount of spousal support you pay can be based on your expected income, meaning that if you had a job making $100,000 for 10 years in a row and when you split up you intentionally take a job paying $50,000, the amount you pay in spousal support will be based on your $100,000 income because it's obvious that you can make that amount of money and are (often) choosing not to. Most people don't realize this and then are left wide-eyed and shitting themselves in court when they get slapped with a huge spousal support bill. Not going to lie, it can be quite humorous in a vindictive way when you know the person took the lower paying job to be a jerk.

[Upgrayed]

On divorce: I dated a girl for a few years that was having a hard time getting her ex to pay child support. He'd stay at a job until the state found him and made an attempt to garnish his wages, then quit. He did that for a while until one day, while working for some sort of delivery service, he wound up at the office of this girl's aunt. The aunt saw him and he recognized her immediately. Her aunt said the look on his face was priceless. It must have been a good enough job because he stayed even after the state started garnishment.

On relatives: I have someone in the family that has turned into a bit of a shit show the last few years. He's a good guy, but can't seem to get things together lately. He lost his job because he was messing around on his phone at a light and slowly rear ended someone while driving a company vehicle. He then did something very similar in his personal car, which was then totaled. He found a new job, a new apartment (borrowing money from other relatives to make the move), and bought a newish car (he made payments on a loan signed for by someone else). He seemed to be doing well for a while until he started showing up late for work. He then lost that job, was evicted, and had the car repossessed. The person that signed for the loan still owes money on it, but he hasn't been making any payments to them. He's back to work now and is living in an apartment with his girlfriend. For a while they were sharing a cell phone paid for by her parents while they paid $150/month for cable. Last I heard, the parents stopped paying for the phone, but I'm guessing the cable package is still around.

[mlejw6]

How anybody could choose to make a baby with someone who doesn't support his or her existing kids, I can't fathom. Do they not understand that they too will be abandoned (with one or more kids to care for) the second it seems convenient?

I think the same thing about people that cheat on their wife/husband and later marry the person they cheated with.

I guess I would assume that cheating on a past partner occurs for reasons that do not exist with the current partner. If a past partner was cheated on because they were abusive or lazy or works nights or something, and the new one is kind and hardworking and around during more traditional hours, there may be less incentive to cheat on them.  Just a thought.  No idea on abandoning kids; probably not much redemption there...

Based on human nature, I'm guessing it's a rare thing for someone who married one type of person to turn around and cheat with a completely different type of person. And if the spouse was hiding their true nature prior to marriage, that someone will probably just file for divorce upon learning their spouse's true nature.

[accountingteacher]

My uncle thinks everything is rigged against him, has filed for bankruptcy twice, drinks like a fish, and smokes like a chimney. He told my mom "Saving for retirement is idiotic at best". He recently got on government disability and now claims he retired early.

I think that makes you my cousin.

[Metric Mouse]

How anybody could choose to make a baby with someone who doesn't support his or her existing kids, I can't fathom. Do they not understand that they too will be abandoned (with one or more kids to care for) the second it seems convenient?

I think the same thing about people that cheat on their wife/husband and later marry the person they cheated with.

I guess I would assume that cheating on a past partner occurs for reasons that do not exist with the current partner. If a past partner was cheated on because they were abusive or lazy or works nights or something, and the new one is kind and hardworking and around during more traditional hours, there may be less incentive to cheat on them.  Just a thought.  No idea on abandoning kids; probably not much redemption there...

Based on human nature, I'm guessing it's a rare thing for someone who married one type of person to turn around and cheat with a completely different type of person. And if the spouse was hiding their true nature prior to marriage, that someone will probably just file for divorce upon learning their spouse's true nature.

Interesting - I would hold the opposite position: someone who cheats does it with someone who fulfills a 'need' that is not being met by their current partner, and is thus significantly different in at least one aspect from the current partner.  Either way.... damn, people are complicated....

[firelight]

How anybody could choose to make a baby with someone who doesn't support his or her existing kids, I can't fathom. Do they not understand that they too will be abandoned (with one or more kids to care for) the second it seems convenient?

I think the same thing about people that cheat on their wife/husband and later marry the person they cheated with.

I guess I would assume that cheating on a past partner occurs for reasons that do not exist with the current partner. If a past partner was cheated on because they were abusive or lazy or works nights or something, and the new one is kind and hardworking and around during more traditional hours, there may be less incentive to cheat on them.  Just a thought.  No idea on abandoning kids; probably not much redemption there...

Based on human nature, I'm guessing it's a rare thing for someone who married one type of person to turn around and cheat with a completely different type of person. And if the spouse was hiding their true nature prior to marriage, that someone will probably just file for divorce upon learning their spouse's true nature.

Interesting - I would hold the opposite position: someone who cheats does it with someone who fulfills a 'need' that is not being met by their current partner, and is thus significantly different in at least one aspect from the current partner.  Either way.... damn, people are complicated....

What's preventing them from cheating with a new partner that fulfils a different need that the current one has? I think once someone cheats, they show a behavioural preference that cheating is OK to get a need fulfilled....... unless they find that perfect partner (which we all know doesn't exist)

[Metric Mouse]

What's preventing them from cheating with a new partner that fulfils a different need that the current one has? I think once someone cheats, they show a behavioural preference that cheating is OK to get a need fulfilled....... unless they find that perfect partner (which we all know doesn't exist)

Nothing's stopping them from cheating. Same for anyone in any relationship. And certainly it could be a pattern of behavior, but if a person who has never cheated before cheats on their other half one time, and then goes on to marry that other person, I would say that it's only an average probability that they will cheat on this new person.

A good point about perfect partners - probably best to wait to get married until you do find them.

[mustachepungoeshere]

A perpetually-broke, self-destructive family member whose children are being raised by their grandmother just bought her four-year-old son a $160 hat.

She doesn't have savings, health insurance, or a job, and always has her hand out for groceries, petrol money, etc.

It's been over a year since she decided to buy it for him and told him all about it.

He loves it, but he would have been equally happy with a $20 version until his head stopped growing.

Now she is talking about buying one for the almost two-year-old.

[Kaydedid]

Reserving a spot here for my close relative I'll call Jake.

Jake grew up believing that he was upper class, and his parents' middle-class income was a personal injustice.  He went to a very expensive private college for a useless degree, then was offered a job by a wealthy relative right out of college.

He lived paycheck-to-paycheck with plenty of subsidizing from the wealthy relative, maintaining a massive consumer sucka lifestyle but believing he was finally living the good life he deserved. 

He ended up losing that job due to really bad choices, but won't take any new job that pays less.  He spirals into addiction and almost dies, but never loses his sense of entitlement and injustice.

He is currently on disability and doing some work under the table, while telling everyone he retired early. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Kaydedid]

A classic Jakeism:

His mother bought a TV and gave her old one to Jake since it was nicer than his.  One of his many devices didn't work with the tv.  Jake furiously calls his mother, demanding a brand-new state-of-the-art tv since it's his mother's fault he already gave away his old one. According to Jake, he NEEDS to see his shows or he'll spiral and try to kill himself again, and refuses to entertain any of the many workarounds.

He is also tech illiterate yet fond of shiny gadgets, so any gift includes (in his mind) hours of infuriating tech support from the giver.  He gets nothing but gift cards now.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Boganvillia]

My brother bought one of his kids for Christmas a brand new iPad, and another kid a brand new iPhone.

We know this, because we came and stayed nearby them for Christmas.

The kids spent the whole time visiting us at the place we were staying on their devices, because Wifi had been turned off at THEIR place, because: they hadn't paid the bill.

(I still hold out a desperate hope that 'we didn't pay the bill and the wifi has been turned off' was a cunning ruse to keep the kids off their devices all the time at home. Alas, it is unlikely ...)

[Goldielocks]

A guy I used to work with claimed he knew someone who upon getting divorced proceeded to sell off all his worldly possessions for next to nothing.  Then he took a job as a chef in a hotel and basically just worked for room and board.  What little he got paid was under the table.  So he was destitute just so that he wouldn't have to pay his ex-wife alimony.
I don't know if that is urban legend or what but talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Oh this definitely happens. I've spent a lot of time in divorce court. Multiple cases of men who will immediately quit their jobs when they split from their wives and try to take low-paying jobs so they don't have to pay spousal support. However, in my state, the amount of spousal support you pay can be based on your expected income, meaning that if you had a job making $100,000 for 10 years in a row and when you split up you intentionally take a job paying $50,000, the amount you pay in spousal support will be based on your $100,000 income because it's obvious that you can make that amount of money and are (often) choosing not to. Most people don't realize this and then are left wide-eyed and shitting themselves in court when they get slapped with a huge spousal support bill. Not going to lie, it can be quite humorous in a vindictive way when you know the person took the lower paying job to be a jerk.

It kind of backfires for MMM's, you know?

Let's imagine that you and your spouse are not together on the whole "FIRE" idea.  After several years of saving money, you have had it with the work grind, and move to FIRE.  She / he divorces you over your laziness (and communication styles, obviously).   You fully expected to split the retirement funds savings 50 / 50 in the divorce... but then are also on the hook for alimony because you have the ability to work $100k/yr but just choose not to....   

I am certain some judges will look at total income, and not the fact that you had a savings rate of 50% when calculating that spousal support, too. 

[Waylander]

Wasn't sure where to park this rant but I didn't think it warranted a new thread so:

Uncle and wife divorced when kids were ~8, 10. Uncle and ex-wife were extremely spendy and lost their house prior to the divorce moved in with my grandpa and grandma. Post-divorce, ex-wife did not want to take the children, so they stayed with my uncle in my grandpa's and grandma's (small) house.

Ex-wife and uncle then both neglect all parental duties for many, many years. They didn't bother with basics of imparting values or matters and didn't bother making sure kids did their homework or go to school. Schools would call my mother who would do her best but would often be met with "you're not my mom, you can't tell me what to do"-type defiance. In lieu of being actual parents, they give a lot of money to their children - these kids have always been getting the biggest and best gadgets and toys without having to work for anything. They also continue with their very spendy lifestyles. Kids grow up having zero concepts of the value of money / how hard you have to work to earn money.

Older kid who is now 18 grew up with a lot of issues and got expelled from several schools for lack of attendance. He now only holds a minimum primary-school qualification (the one you get when you're 12). Ex-wife gives him money to do ridiculous things like visit his overseas girlfriend and buy the girlfriend gifts. As far as I know, older kid has never worked a day in his life and often just plays computer games in his room and only emerges to eat, shower, and be a dick to my grandma. (Grandpa has passed away; uncle is almost never home and has taken the whole "it's their life; their problem if they mess up" attitude towards raising his children. Absolutely infuriating.) Older kid is now trying to defer his 2 year mandatory army stint - and has no plans whatsoever for the future. As usual, uncle is doing nothing. Ex-wife still constantly providing financial assistance.

Thankfully, younger kid who is now 16 is determined not to grow up like his brother and is actually making an effort both in school and also has a part-time job to get experience with computers and to have spending money. We're pretty proud of younger kid for having a brain to think for himself.

I have spoken to both my parents and have made it absolutely clear that I will in no circumstances be giving or "lending" any money to the older kid when his parents pass on and he has no life skills to survive on his own. My parents thankfully agree.

[TomTX]

On the ring foam...

Spend $50 on a CZ. 95% of people won't know the difference.

Or don't, and tell them to shove it because you don't value yourself based on what they think of you, but rather what you think of yourself.

MrsTX now has a lab grown sapphire set in a sterling ring. Beautiful, durable - and she doesn't worry about it, so she wears it. Roughly the same size as a 2 carat diamond, flawless. Total cost was about $20 on Amazon.

It's the marriage that lasts for life, not the engagement.

ABSOLUTELY!

There's an amazing couple that hosts the Bible study I go to, they are clearly affluent as they own a remodeling company, own a few rentals and have two more coming to market this year with tenants lined up (bought a dilapated townhouse and gutted it and are working to get it ready for inspection by the end of the month). A few weeks ago his wife showed me her ring and mentioned, "This is an updated from what he gave me when he proposed," and then proudly mentioned, "I got it for $100 a few years ago, when he proposed the ring was maybe $15, but we didn't have much then." I wanted to hug her I loved this story so much.

But that's even crazier! If it's an "updated" ring then it's not an engagement ring, it's just some ring.

For our 20th anniversary, MrsTX and I got new bands. Tungsten carbide, gorgeous. Also were.... $20 (each) on Amazon. I wear it a lot more than my fancy gold band. No worries about damaging it - this is a really tough material.

[Taran Wanderer]

We spent a lot on our wedding and honeymoon. Very non-mustachian, all cash, and very worth it.  With so much going out already, I got a sterling silver wedding band for twenty bucks.  It served the immediate need and was something we wouldn't have to worry about while backpacking through Europe on the honeymoon. We planned to upgrade later.  It's nine years later now. Still wearing my $20 sterling silver wedding band.  No plans to upgrade.

[mm1970]

A guy I used to work with claimed he knew someone who upon getting divorced proceeded to sell off all his worldly possessions for next to nothing.  Then he took a job as a chef in a hotel and basically just worked for room and board.  What little he got paid was under the table.  So he was destitute just so that he wouldn't have to pay his ex-wife alimony.
I don't know if that is urban legend or what but talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Oh this definitely happens. I've spent a lot of time in divorce court. Multiple cases of men who will immediately quit their jobs when they split from their wives and try to take low-paying jobs so they don't have to pay spousal support. However, in my state, the amount of spousal support you pay can be based on your expected income, meaning that if you had a job making $100,000 for 10 years in a row and when you split up you intentionally take a job paying $50,000, the amount you pay in spousal support will be based on your $100,000 income because it's obvious that you can make that amount of money and are (often) choosing not to. Most people don't realize this and then are left wide-eyed and shitting themselves in court when they get slapped with a huge spousal support bill. Not going to lie, it can be quite humorous in a vindictive way when you know the person took the lower paying job to be a jerk.

It kind of backfires for MMM's, you know?

Let's imagine that you and your spouse are not together on the whole "FIRE" idea.  After several years of saving money, you have had it with the work grind, and move to FIRE.  She / he divorces you over your laziness (and communication styles, obviously).   You fully expected to split the retirement funds savings 50 / 50 in the divorce... but then are also on the hook for alimony because you have the ability to work $100k/yr but just choose not to....   

I am certain some judges will look at total income, and not the fact that you had a savings rate of 50% when calculating that spousal support, too.

A friend of mine got divorced.  Husband was supposed to pay for child support, but often didn't.   She had primary custody, he got every other weekend and some holidays...that sort of thing (kids are in their 20s now).  She'd worked part time while married and upped it to full time after the divorce.  Husband left town and started a business.

So ex-husband takes the kids on a 2 week vacation.  Asks her first because it's his week AND her week with the kids.  She says okay.  When he comes back, he presents her with a bill for the second week.  She laughs and refuses to pay.  This was YOUR vacation bud.  He takes her to small claims court.

So, small claims court, first thing the judge asks is "is he supposed to pay child support?"  "Yes".  "Is he in arrears?"  "Yes".  The judge opens up a family court case for her right there and then, and denies him payment on the vacation.

So, since he's a business owner, and makes quarterly tax payments to the IRS, the IRS turned his pre-paid tax payments for the year over to her for child support.  Then he still owed the IRS.

What a dummy.

[mustachepungoeshere]

A friend of mine got divorced.  Husband was supposed to pay for child support, but often didn't.   She had primary custody, he got every other weekend and some holidays...that sort of thing (kids are in their 20s now).  She'd worked part time while married and upped it to full time after the divorce.  Husband left town and started a business.

So ex-husband takes the kids on a 2 week vacation.  Asks her first because it's his week AND her week with the kids.  She says okay.  When he comes back, he presents her with a bill for the second week.  She laughs and refuses to pay.  This was YOUR vacation bud.  He takes her to small claims court.

So, small claims court, first thing the judge asks is "is he supposed to pay child support?"  "Yes".  "Is he in arrears?"  "Yes".  The judge opens up a family court case for her right there and then, and denies him payment on the vacation.

So, since he's a business owner, and makes quarterly tax payments to the IRS, the IRS turned his pre-paid tax payments for the year over to her for child support.  Then he still owed the IRS.

What a dummy.

ಠ_ಠ

[Sydneystache]

For our 20th anniversary, MrsTX and I got new bands. Tungsten carbide, gorgeous. Also were.... $20 (each) on Amazon. I wear it a lot more than my fancy gold band. No worries about damaging it - this is a really tough material.

We were going to get titanium rings because of their toughness...but, being really tough material, the emergency departments here really find it difficult to take them off or cut them off with bolt cutters. One surgeon had to order a laser to remove a ring.

So with that in mind, we have stuck to traditional sterling silver and white gold.

[Taran Wanderer]

I dislocated my left ring finger once - with my wedding band still on it and "upstream" of the dislocation.  Totally freaked me out.  I couldn't pop it back in, and we headed toward the hospital.  The shred of hope that I clung to was that my cheap, silver wedding band would be easy to cut off when I got to the ER.

Once I got there (and the admitting secretary and the ER nurse turned green at the sight of my finger), I relaxed while the ER doc pulled, and it popped right back into place.  The the doc easily slipped my ring off over the previously dislocated joint, so I didn't get to see how easily a silver band comes off.  After that, no tungsten-carbide wedding band for me.  I'm sticking with something soft.

[mustachepungoeshere]

When I first showed my MiL my engagement ring, about a week after her son proposed, she raved about it for a minute then said, "And when you get sick of it in 20 years, you can get it remade!"

MiL had her engagement ring remade (and added two large diamonds for three in total) for their 25th anniversary. Then, within a month, she decided she needed another ring for that hand to complement it.

The worst reaction to an engagement ring I've heard was a family friend who met her future MiL the week before the wedding. MiL examined the ring and said, "Well, I suppose anything looks good on young hands."

[Sylly]

For our 20th anniversary, MrsTX and I got new bands. Tungsten carbide, gorgeous. Also were.... $20 (each) on Amazon. I wear it a lot more than my fancy gold band. No worries about damaging it - this is a really tough material.

We were going to get titanium rings because of their toughness...but, being really tough material, the emergency departments here really find it difficult to take them off or cut them off with bolt cutters. One surgeon had to order a laser to remove a ring.

So with that in mind, we have stuck to traditional sterling silver and white gold.

Just in case you're not aware, keep in mind that Tungsten Carbide rings can and do break or shatter. So don't think of it as indestructible. That, and the fact we can't resize them is why DH and I opted for gold even though we both like the look of the Tungsten Carbide stuff.

[Kitsune]

Neighbor, not a relative, but head-banging nonetheless.

So, imagine you're in your mid 60s. You retire, at a traditional age, from a job as a schoolteacher. You sell your house in Toronto for a tidy profit. What do you do? Where do you chose to live?

Well, if you're this woman, you move to a small town in Quebec with a non-starter real estate scene (a lot of houses people bought in the 90s and now want to sell, but they stay on the market for 4-5 years). You build a freakin' ginormous house. The ginormous house (Ok, about 3K square feet over 3 full floors, not THAT ginormous by other standards, I suppose - but she lives alone and has no kids. That's 3K sq ft for one person) MUST have a long flight of stairs to get in the house, and, really, you should put your bedroom and bathroom on the top floor because "the view is better" (and lady, I hope your hips are doing GREAT when you're in your late 70s, 'cause that trek is gonna suck otherwise, and that house won't sell quckly if you need it to). Oh, and make sure you make the workers re-hang the window 4 times "to make sure they're the right hight for the view", as well as other stupid re-do-the-work requests that they'll charge you for, which cause you to run out of money (from a Toronto house sale. HOW.) before being able to put in kitchen cupboards. Those go in a year later.

Then, proceed to interact with the locals as if you're a benevolant big city Lady (capital L) come to bring culture to the yokels - god knows THAT condescending attitude works GREAT to make those friends you were hoping to make. Ahem. Also, lady, we're 45 km away from a city with a university. The 'yokels' include 2 editors for literary journals, some university professors, business people, musicians, retired folk... please, do come to bring us culture. *grinds teeth*

Oh, and then whine that country people are SO closed off and that we're not coming to visit because we're jealous of your oh-so-gorgeous house. Right. That's the way to make friends.

Just go AWAY.