Pushback From Everyone

[Potterquilter]

We were FI by our late 40's.  I cannot tell you how many times our siblings or friends just could not understand why we made the choices we did.
...
We have many friends and family members who wonder how they will be able to make ends meet when they retire in their late 60's.  We are over ten years into retirement, have travelled the world, do a ton of charitable work, live in a very nice house and they still are bewildered.  It is because we spend on things important to us, not what is important to everyone else and our net worth has increased in retirement.
...
And most importantly to this day if someone makes a comment we just nod and smile. Or shrug.  No clever retort. No explanations.

This person has it figured out, especially the last part. Enjoy your retirement

Thank you. We love our life.

[okits]

A guy was visiting from another state and came along and he seemed to be all butthurt about me wanting to retire in 10 years (when I'm 37), but I realized that he's 37 and so maybe took it somewhat personally. 

I smiled at how you phrased that.  Quite apt.

It can be hard to see what you might have had if you'd been focused and given your best effort.  Regret is expensive, as they say.  In 10 years you'll be 37 whether you apply your efforts to building your stash or blow it all on hookers and coke.  If Mr. Butthurt seemed like an otherwise good guy, consider letting him know that there are online resources to teach him how to get to ER.  He doesn't need to look back in 10 years and be even more butthurt.

[Daisy]

I've gotten a ton of pushback too, and I was always pretty frugal, just not to Mustachian levels like I am now.  And I still live a life that has a lot of "fat" in it, but I can afford it and its not derailing my long term plans.

People who know me well know that early retirement is high up on the to do list.  I've learned to deflect with humor first, and if they are truly interested, then I'm happy to take some time out of social situations to chat.

My favorite lines are as follows:

When it comes to retiring early: Well, on paper it all looks great!  We'll see how real life compares.

When it comes to my collection of rental properties:  Some women buy shoes.  I buy houses.

Both work well to disarm people and change the subject when their end goal was to poke holes in your plans.  :)

I also have some good comebacks for "pushback":

- I cancelled cable TV when I moved over a year ago. I mentioned this to someone at work recently that hinted that I make enough money to afford it. I said "well I tried the whole cable cutting thing as an experiment after I moved and then it turns out I don't watch much TV at all...just a couple of shows I catch online maybe."

- Bringing my lunch: "I find I can eat healthier bringing my lunch than buying lunch."

- Meeting friends for dinner in an area with paid parking or valet, and I park for free about 3/4 of a mile away and walk: "I find the walk through town very pleasant, good shops to look at, and I don't come here very often." OR "I can't stand parking in garages and getting stuck in traffic."

- Car choice "I just love hatchbacks."

[Cassie]

Yes that is what happens.

[RetiredAt63]

Oh yes, so true.  When we split my X told me I would end up a bag lady.  Divorce is expensive, but now that the lawyers are paid off my net worth is still increasing in retirement. 

Someone in the thread stated that the naysaying flares up again at actual retirement time. I wonder if it actually gets worse at that point, with people telling you that you will end up impoverished and miserable, living on the dole and begging to be a Walmart greeter. It seems that at that point you really wouldn't have much in common with your old posse, so it would be easy to cut them loose, but I could imagine a gamma ray burst of negative feedback.

[zephyr911]

When it comes to my collection of rental properties:  Some women buy shoes.  I buy houses.

STEALING THAT

[MgoSam]

A guy was visiting from another state and came along and he seemed to be all butthurt about me wanting to retire in 10 years (when I'm 37), but I realized that he's 37 and so maybe took it somewhat personally. 

I smiled at how you phrased that.  Quite apt.

It can be hard to see what you might have had if you'd been focused and given your best effort.  Regret is expensive, as they say.  In 10 years you'll be 37 whether you apply your efforts to building your stash or blow it all on hookers and coke.  If Mr. Butthurt seemed like an otherwise good guy, consider letting him know that there are online resources to teach him how to get to ER.  He doesn't need to look back in 10 years and be even more butthurt.

Yeah he's a nice guy and I'm pretty willing to share how I am going to hit FIRE with anyone that wants to listen. Compared to many people on here I don't live all that frugally, but all too often people don't want to listen.

[jinga nation]

When it comes to my collection of rental properties:  Some women buy shoes.  I buy houses.

Thank you! Stolen and edited to: Some men buy watches/cars. I buy houses.

[Kaspian]

The problem lies in my friends and family and their opinion on this matter.

I first read this to mean their opinions on the subject mattered to you. :)  Their opinions certainly do not matter.  That's why people couple up--so they can align objectives and work toward a common goals.  It belongs to you and your wife, not the world.  My advice after working on FIRE for only the last 3 years is to shut up as much as possible about it.  It's not a dirty secret, but people get weird.  ...Like when I was high school and decided the Sex Pistols were my favourite band.  I quickly realized that my tastes were different from almost everyone around me.  (They still are my favourite band and most people won't admit now that their was Whitesnake.)

My friends still ask me about it occasionally.  I smile and say, "Still on course."  My best friend has really started to pare down his own world and become slightly Mustachian in his own way.  This was after witnessing me over years chucking stuff, cancelling cable, buying what I need used or from Dollarama, etc.  I think at a certain point a bell went off in his head that said, "I know damn well that fucker acts broke but has a lot more money than I do!  I'd better start fixing things in my own world."

[Kaspian]

...

By contrast, you believe you totally get their point of view and you reject it. You see it in all its detail and understand it for what it is – stupid. You don’t need to hear them elaborate. So, each side believes they understand the other side better than the other side understands both their opponents and themselves."

Dostoyevsky said that in a debate/argument one side cannot understand what it is the other likes about a position.  That is where the true confusion lies.  If you can explain why something appeals to you rather than the pure logic behind it, you may be able to eventually win them over.  Or at least get them to more fully understand why you take the stand you do.

[MDM]

"In a political debate you feel like the other side just doesn’t get your point of view, and if they could only see things with your clarity, they would understand and fall naturally in line with what you believe. They must not understand, because if they did they wouldn’t think the things they think.

By contrast, you believe you totally get their point of view and you reject it. You see it in all its detail and understand it for what it is – stupid. You don’t need to hear them elaborate. So, each side believes they understand the other side better than the other side understands both their opponents and themselves."

Dostoyevsky said that in a debate/argument one side cannot understand what it is the other likes about a position.  That is where the true confusion lies.  If you can explain why something appeals to you rather than the pure logic behind it, you may be able to eventually win them over.  Or at least get them to more fully understand why you take the stand you do.

And as Stephen Covey wrote, "Seek First to Understand, Then to Be Understood."  Usually works better than "I'm right - it's obvious - duh."

[Tjat]

On the flip side and this is speaking generally, make sure you aren't the person bragging about how you're set to FIRE with your nose shoved high up in the air. No one likes unsolicited 'my life is better than your's' advice. Just do your own thing...quietly... or don't get offended with pushback.

[partgypsy]

If it makes you feel any better, of our circle of friends there is a couple, who was way more frugal than the rest of us. Did things like rehab their house and their rental house by themselves, kids had very spartan wardrobes and belongings, didn't celebrate xmas with gifts, no paper products except toilet paper. Only 1 garbage can in house. So everyone including us would tease him about being a cheapskate, etc. He never got defensive, would just shrug his shoulders and laugh and say things "you got me". Well they paid off their house early, and selling that and with other money they had saved with his wife they were able to buy 100 acres, and in a few years had a passive solar house built. Truly beautiful out of Architectural Digest, and have chickens, and goats, etc. Having dinner at their house in their beautiful but simple home, using items from their own garden. They are living the life they want to, and they are a few years younger than we are. I don't think anyone teases them about not using paper towels anymore. But you may have to wait until you achieve your goals for the naysayers to shut up.

[AJ]

Next thing I know, every event I'm at people are like "So I hear your gonna retire at 30, Good luck with that" with sarcastic/yea right tones... I get shot back about 5 responses to the tune of "Oh man but is it under 10 cents per serving, don't break the bank" or "Only worth it if it's 1 cent a slice" or "don't eat up all your retirement money".

Laugh all the way to the bank!! I used to get made fun of by peers as well. Then I bought a house, and they were a bit more interested. Then I bought another, and another, and another. No one laughs anymore, seriously. People that thought it was weird now pull me aside to ask me to look at their finances - has happened half a dozen times now. If you follow through on your plans, they will be eating crow before they've paid off their student loans.

I think this would throw me into a serious fuck you mode and I would redouble my efforts.  I would be saying to myself screw 30 what about 29,  what about 28, what about 27?

I would take on extra work,  deliver pizzas on the weekends and cut my expenses to the core --- I mean really cut them.     As Dave Ramsey would say -- You wouldn't see the inside of a restaurant unless you were working there.   No time for facebook or socializing with dipshits either because you are too busy working towards you dream.  Form a local MMM type group for monthly get togethers.   

Oh yeah,  I would find time to take 4 -7 vacations per year using free money via credit card rewards (richmondsavers.com) and make sure I plastered those pictures in everyone's facebook.   I would also milk the free money out there for another 4K per year. (doctorofcredit.com).   

I would set my life  up so that I had a paid off 100K car and buy a duplex that cash flows my mortgage payment.   

My 4 year projected annual living expenses would be in the area of 8K and include 10 trips or international travel of 5 months per year.   

I would also start a blog entitled "Fuck You -- One man's journey to financial independence in a sea of dissent"    Over 4 years I would make that blog generate 2K per month in mostly passive income. 

At 28 I would pull the plug on traditional jobs and announce to everyone that you had retired. (with 24K passive and 10K investment income on 8k expenses).  You would be set for life.   Of course in 5 years the dipshits that didn't have a clue will be singing a different story and asking you for advice,  along with --"I see you just spent 3 months this winter in Hawaii hiking and learning to surf.  How was that?   I'm so jealous. Wish I had the time and money for that."

Get angry kid ---- fuck them!

At least that is what I would do  ---- you do what you want.

THIS WAS AWESOME! I love it :)

[Migrator Soul]

I think this would throw me into a serious fuck you mode and I would redouble my efforts.  I would be saying to myself screw 30 what about 29,  what about 28, what about 27?

I would take on extra work,  deliver pizzas on the weekends and cut my expenses to the core --- I mean really cut them.     As Dave Ramsey would say -- You wouldn't see the inside of a restaurant unless you were working there.   No time for facebook or socializing with dipshits either because you are too busy working towards you dream.  Form a local MMM type group for monthly get togethers.   

Oh yeah,  I would find time to take 4 -7 vacations per year using free money via credit card rewards (richmondsavers.com) and make sure I plastered those pictures in everyone's facebook.   I would also milk the free money out there for another 4K per year. (doctorofcredit.com).   

I would set my life  up so that I had a paid off 100K car and buy a duplex that cash flows my mortgage payment.   

My 4 year projected annual living expenses would be in the area of 8K and include 10 trips or international travel of 5 months per year.   

I would also start a blog entitled "Fuck You -- One man's journey to financial independence in a sea of dissent"    Over 4 years I would make that blog generate 2K per month in mostly passive income. 

At 28 I would pull the plug on traditional jobs and announce to everyone that you had retired. (with 24K passive and 10K investment income on 8k expenses).  You would be set for life.   Of course in 5 years the dipshits that didn't have a clue will be singing a different story and asking you for advice,  along with --"I see you just spent 3 months this winter in Hawaii hiking and learning to surf.  How was that?   I'm so jealous. Wish I had the time and money for that."

Get angry kid ---- fuck them!

At least that is what I would do  ---- you do what you want.

Bob W, not the hero we need, but the hero we deserve. That was damn right motivating.

[Guesl982374]

Just keep doing what you know is right, even if the whole world's crazy. It's your life to live the way you want to. Don't let others kill your joy.

I'm going to retire in my 30s too. I am very much looking forward to it. I'm pretty close :)

+1

Keep your chin up and you'll be fine. Just laugh it off and lie: let people know that you were wrong and now you are saving for a house, car, etc. The comments will eventually go away. It's your life, not theirs.

[benjenn]

DH and I are FIREing next month at the MMM OLD ages of 51 and 52 and I can't believe how many people are so skeptical of us doing it THIS young.  I only wish we could have done it earlier to see their jaws really drop.  :)  As it is, we've only known each other for 7 years so I think our timing is just fine.  :)

Best of luck to you and remember the best advice my mom ever gave me -- "It's really not your business what other people think of you so don't worry about it."

[partgypsy]

Oh god. I at one point disclosed to in laws trying to set up finances so could retire at 62, which they let me know what a terrible idea it is, that we would regret it, emails of articles about how bad it is to retire early, social security, etc. So I amended it to say "I want to arrange finances so I could retire at 62, if I wanted to, and also some people develop conditions where they cannot work till old age. But I probably will work past that. That satisfied them. But really, retiring at 62 is that threatening or terrible of a thing to contemplate?

[eyesonthehorizon]

I get this. I so so do. I have half a decade of bad experiences on you or I'd have done the exact same thing and rushed to tell my family and friends when I found out how soon I could be FI. I have had to settle into an uneasy compromise of suggesting I'll get done in ten or twelve years what I plan to do in five or three.

While it's always wonderful to be able to roll your eyes and say, "We'll see, won't we?" right back, or just not to bother telling anyone, it's not a natural stance to some people. It's not even so much about caring about people's impression of you but just wanting to share something you're excited and passionate about that's improved your quality of life - for me it's the closest I think I'll get to impulses of religious evangelism. It's frustrating and sad to see people around you drowning or struggling when you could teach them to swim.

It doesn't cut the pushback entirely, but what TheOldestYoungMan said:
"... It is a progression to get where we are, and skipping steps makes us look nuts. ..."
It's why I don't tell the whole truth - I give them the half-step. I'm accurate about my budget, but fib about the timeframe, because all I want is to suggest that it's POSSIBLE to live without daily (or weekly!) restaurant and cafe trips and not have a TV service.

I'd encourage you seek out likeminded real-life friends, but you may have to reach far beyond your existing crowd to do that. My whole social circle from childhood comes from a long line of spend-it-while-you've-got-it thinkers, and are hard to convince; my mostly-white-collar-ish coworkers, in finance earning 35-70k, are far worse and can't imagine living on less than every cent they earn. I suggest making friends at libraries, public parks, art fairs if you have them.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd also assume that pushback is even worse if you're a dude. I get my behaviour excused, with no input from me, via benevolent sexism: 'this is clearly impossible, but women have no head for money, sweetie, and you can always marry up.'

The flip side: my boyfriend, raised in the same "spend-it-before-it-disappears!" mindset but who now really understands my frugality, sees my meteoric progress and has to fight some ingrained intimidation - on some deep level he expected to be taking care of me and it's really really clear now not only that I don't need it but that in fact he will have to catch up. He's can see it's a good thing, but intellectual insight may not make it much easier in this culture when he gets crap from cashiers for not paying for me because it was my turn.

This mentality, if you've encountered it, is probably even more reason to seek friends who have deprogrammed themselves, along with the benefits of having people who know cool stuff to do without prepackaged entertainment.

[Cookie]

I think this would throw me into a serious fuck you mode and I would redouble my efforts.  I would be saying to myself screw 30 what about 29,  what about 28, what about 27?

I would take on extra work,  deliver pizzas on the weekends and cut my expenses to the core --- I mean really cut them.     As Dave Ramsey would say -- You wouldn't see the inside of a restaurant unless you were working there.   No time for facebook or socializing with dipshits either because you are too busy working towards you dream.  Form a local MMM type group for monthly get togethers.   

Oh yeah,  I would find time to take 4 -7 vacations per year using free money via credit card rewards (richmondsavers.com) and make sure I plastered those pictures in everyone's facebook.   I would also milk the free money out there for another 4K per year. (doctorofcredit.com).   

I would set my life  up so that I had a paid off 100K car and buy a duplex that cash flows my mortgage payment.   

My 4 year projected annual living expenses would be in the area of 8K and include 10 trips or international travel of 5 months per year.   

I would also start a blog entitled "Fuck You -- One man's journey to financial independence in a sea of dissent"    Over 4 years I would make that blog generate 2K per month in mostly passive income. 

At 28 I would pull the plug on traditional jobs and announce to everyone that you had retired. (with 24K passive and 10K investment income on 8k expenses).  You would be set for life.   Of course in 5 years the dipshits that didn't have a clue will be singing a different story and asking you for advice,  along with --"I see you just spent 3 months this winter in Hawaii hiking and learning to surf.  How was that?   I'm so jealous. Wish I had the time and money for that."

Get angry kid ---- fuck them!

At least that is what I would do  ---- you do what you want.

This is great! I'm now motivated to shoot for ER even sooner!

[ender]

DH and I are FIREing next month at the MMM OLD ages of 51 and 52 and I can't believe how many people are so skeptical of us doing it THIS young.  I only wish we could have done it earlier to see their jaws really drop.  :)  As it is, we've only known each other for 7 years so I think our timing is just fine.  :)

Best of luck to you and remember the best advice my mom ever gave me -- "It's really not your business what other people think of you so don't worry about it."

I've thought about this too, my "ideal" age is 40, "target" age is something like 45 or so (we're young enough we can't plan what my income/kids/family/etc will do) and my "man we really screwed this up" age is 50.

We're in our 20s now and most people my age assume that our generation never will retire. I figure if I'm off by 10 years and FIRE at 50 we still will get enough "wtfs?"

[fartface]

On the flip side and this is speaking generally, make sure you aren't the person bragging about how you're set to FIRE with your nose shoved high up in the air. No one likes unsolicited 'my life is better than your's' advice. Just do your own thing...quietly... or don't get offended with pushback.

Yeah, this is a good MO. I rarely share my FIRE plans w/anyone except my kids and DH.

Friends, CW's, relatives....really don't quite understand. Also, if I were to exuberantly jaw about this to people they may think me nuts. Ever heard someone go on and on about their new "weight loss" plan? Six months later they're fatter than ever. FIRE is one of those, 'gotta see it to believe it' kind of things. Telling people you 'plan' to retire at 30 invites lots of eye rolls, etc.

[mm1970]

I get this. I so so do. I have half a decade of bad experiences on you or I'd have done the exact same thing and rushed to tell my family and friends when I found out how soon I could be FI. I have had to settle into an uneasy compromise of suggesting I'll get done in ten or twelve years what I plan to do in five or three.

While it's always wonderful to be able to roll your eyes and say, "We'll see, won't we?" right back, or just not to bother telling anyone, it's not a natural stance to some people. It's not even so much about caring about people's impression of you but just wanting to share something you're excited and passionate about that's improved your quality of life - for me it's the closest I think I'll get to impulses of religious evangelism. It's frustrating and sad to see people around you drowning or struggling when you could teach them to swim.

Some good stuff here.

I have a former coworker (he got laid off about a year ago).  He's in his late 50's.  One of those guys who transitions easily between engineering and management.  Works as an engineer, gets promoted to VP eventually.  Gets bored, changes jobs, etc. etc.

I really liked him, and we both had frugality in common.  Though I think he isn't quite as risk averse - so he has had outside business interests, and he's a guy - so he had workplace advantages from that.  One advantage he had is that he was able to buy a house in So Cal before the market went crazy.  I wasn't, because I wasn't here/ didn't have the money (he's about 15 years older).

Anyway, he's been unemployed for a year.  He's been looking for a job, casually, but in the meantime sold one of his houses (he owns 2 houses and an orchard) and bought a new house (which is a serious fixer).  So he's been busy fixing up the new house.  One of his houses is in my town, the other is in a different town (the fixer is in the other town).

People say things like "oh yeah, he's rich, must be nice".  Well, you know - this guy almost never ate out.  He'd bring a sandwich, or a salad, or just a baked potato for lunch.  He and I would talk about frugality a lot (and he'd give me tips on buying an orchard for the tax advantages and the income possibilities and...well, it's just not me).  He made good money BUT he was good with it.  Also, his wife had a job and later owned a business.  She sold the business.

I'm not sure how many people have made the connection.  My boss once made a comment to me (about the precariousness of our company), "oh, well us older people don't have to worry like you do".  (He meant guys between 55-60).  I assume he meant that because of the extra years of mortgage payments already done, and kids up and out, and such.  I kept my mouth shut because if he knew my net worth I'd probably kill any chance (slim as it is) of getting a raise.

[justjenn]

I haven't told anyone about my FI plans precisely because of all the push back I received when I told people about travel hacking. I had so many people tell me that it was a scam, that I'd ruin my credit (it increased my credit score), or that I'd wind up in debt (I didn't). After I went on multiple vacations for pennies on the dollar, some people changed their tune and asked for advice. However, I've also received a lot of snarky comments about how much I travel. My favorite would have to be my dad telling me "wow they must be paying secretaries a lot these days". I was working as an assistant at a law firm and my net income was $24k.

FI and travel hacking often over lap because they are about challenging the idea that you need a bunch of money to live the life you want. Of course money makes things easier, but money isn't what makes something possible. Our communities are about proving that through sacrifice, planning, and creativity, we can do whatever we want.

People are going to give you flak because they still have the mindset that it's impossible. Just let them say whatever they want and know that one day you'll have the last laugh. And tell your parents to stop telling everyone they see about your plans. They wouldn't tell everyone how much you have in your bank account or your income, so they shouldn't be telling everyone about your FI plans either.

Also, it would really help to find a frugal friend. I got lucky that my best friend since pre school also happens to be really frugal. It's really helpful that when I ask her what she wants to do over the weekend she always answers "something free".

Oh yeah,  I would find time to take 4 -7 vacations per year using free money via credit card rewards (richmondsavers.com) and make sure I plastered those pictures in everyone's facebook.   I would also milk the free money out there for another 4K per year. (doctorofcredit.com).   

And I semi-shamefully admit that it gave me immense satisfaction to post all of my vacation photos on facebook after everyone told me it couldn't be done.

[EarlyStart]

Thanks for the reply's guys. Some good advice and some I've already practiced. I definitely try to avoid conversations about it now and hope people will forget till that one day when I tell them all. "I'm done working" and go do stuff I really want to do.

I just think it's an amazing human dynamic that people reject what they currently are not doing instinctively... Although I was fairly frugal before finding this community, I was not practicing mustacism to it's fullest before I read this forum... But I didn't dismiss it as wrong because it was not currently what I was doing... I adapted becuase of new knowledge and adjusted my goals.

I'd also suggest not focusing much on being able to tell people you were right when you achieve financial independence, not that I'm suggesting you are. Even when you do achieve FI/RE, people will have reasons why:

a) you're not REALLY retired
b) it probably won't work
c) there is a reason they work and spend more, and it certainly has nothing to do with you achieving something that they cannot or will not


The population is in a state of constant equilibrium. There is a mass of spending which supports those who lend and own capital. There is a mass of saving which lends and sells products to those who spend. We all do a little bit of both, but Mustachians fall on one side of the spectrum to a greater extent than most. Try not to think of the two as mutually exclusive. I'll be the first to admit that I have trouble with this.

[onehair]

There is always someone available to tell you why something you want to do won't work.  I have heard it myself since I began to be serious about mustaching.  I am thankful my mommy brother sister and a few friends support me but you do have support here.  I was called weird for learning to make sausage, not eating out at lunch as much as I used to, going natural (and this is big in the black community considering the money we spend on our hair), but it is beginning to pay off....

[Scandium]

DH and I are FIREing next month at the MMM OLD ages of 51 and 52 and I can't believe how many people are so skeptical of us doing it THIS young.  I only wish we could have done it earlier to see their jaws really drop.  :)  As it is, we've only known each other for 7 years so I think our timing is just fine.  :)

Best of luck to you and remember the best advice my mom ever gave me -- "It's really not your business what other people think of you so don't worry about it."

I've thought about this too, my "ideal" age is 40, "target" age is something like 45 or so (we're young enough we can't plan what my income/kids/family/etc will do) and my "man we really screwed this up" age is 50.

We're in our 20s now and most people my age assume that our generation never will retire. I figure if I'm off by 10 years and FIRE at 50 we still will get enough "wtfs?"

With one kid, and possibly another to raise (and get through college) I'm being very careful with the plans. But even so, just with maxing 401k, Roth and very little extra investments (by MMM standards) by the time we're 50 we'll have $2 million+, so I don't see how we would keep working past that! I mean, I'm still not sure this FIRE thing is actually possible for us, but every time I look at the number I see no reason we should work past 50! And if I were to be optimistic more like 45.

I wise don't mention it to anyone, barely to my wife even. Or she'll think I want us to live in squalor so I can sit on my ass when I'm old. Brought it up with my parent's and got "fifty!!? But what would you do?" Eh, whatever the fuck I want? My parent's could and should retire, but work is just what they do so they will probably just keep at it. So safest is just to not mention it to anyone.

[zephyr911]

I wise don't mention it to anyone, barely to my wife even. Or she'll think I want us to live in squalor so I can sit on my ass when I'm old. Brought it up with my parent's and got "fifty!!? But what would you do?" Eh, whatever the fuck I want? My parent's could and should retire, but work is just what they do so they will probably just keep at it. So safest is just to not mention it to anyone.

My wife - who, ironically, catalyzed my FIRE aspirations by helping me tamp down my spending problem so I could invest more - occasionally objects that we're giving up everything now so we can be rich when we're old and frail. I'm still struggling somewhat to convince her that with our current income + LCOL, we can have our cake and eat it too. We live pretty cheaply but we don't deny ourselves much, and our SR should let us go part-time by 40 with absolutely no change in lifestyle.

[Scandium]

I wise don't mention it to anyone, barely to my wife even. Or she'll think I want us to live in squalor so I can sit on my ass when I'm old. Brought it up with my parent's and got "fifty!!? But what would you do?" Eh, whatever the fuck I want? My parent's could and should retire, but work is just what they do so they will probably just keep at it. So safest is just to not mention it to anyone.

My wife - who, ironically, catalyzed my FIRE aspirations by helping me tamp down my spending problem so I could invest more - occasionally objects that we're giving up everything now so we can be rich when we're old and frail. I'm still struggling somewhat to convince her that with our current income + LCOL, we can have our cake and eat it too. We live pretty cheaply but we don't deny ourselves much, and our SR should let us go part-time by 40 with absolutely no change in lifestyle.

I try to focus on the big things, and not not visible cringe at her occasional Dunkin coffee or "omg cute baby outfit". As long as we buy a 4 year old used car instead of a $40k SUV like most others, no yearly ipads etc, we'll be ok, and that's a balance I'm fine with. And she is too.

Sounds familiar; I mostly think she doesn't quite believe it's possible. I get excited and throw out some numbers "4%! $2million at 50!, blah blah". And mostly get "uh-huh, sure". But as long as she's on board with simpler-than-average life (spendy by MMM standards) I'll just keep investing and pull out the account balance in a decade or so. Maybe she'll be convinced then :D

[zephyr911]

I try to focus on the big things, and not not visible cringe at her occasional Dunkin coffee or "omg cute baby outfit". As long as we buy a 4 year old used car instead of a $40k SUV like most others, no yearly ipads etc, we'll be ok, and that's a balance I'm fine with. And she is too.

Sounds familiar; I mostly think she doesn't quite believe it's possible. I get excited and throw out some numbers "4%! $2million at 50!, blah blah". And mostly get "uh-huh, sure". But as long as she's on board with simpler-than-average life (spendy by MMM standards) I'll just keep investing and pull out the account balance in a decade or so. Maybe she'll be convinced then :D

My DW grew up very frugal so I don't have to convince her on most things... what nags her is that she spent a decade in school, living with her parents and barely buying new underwear, during which time I was making lots of money and blowing it on silly shit. We weren't together yet but she knows all about it. Now that she has her masters and a $40K job - far more than she ever made before - the impulse is to make up for lost time, and she doesn't wanna hear these objections from a former spendypants that she helped turn around... lol

[Jakejake]

i talk about being frugal with my coworkers, but not about my savings anymore. The killer was when we were negotiating a new contract, the budget was tight, and my best friend at work floated the idea to the whole office that maybe those from two income families could voluntarily opt out of a raise so the one income people who really "needed" the money could have more of it.

I know what she really meant was maybe she could just have some of my salary since I clearly didn't need it (meaning I was investing it for retirement).  She doesn't know it, but it almost killed our friendship. I felt like I had landed back in the 1950's when it was the norm for married women to make less for the same work because their work was a considered a hobby.

Meanwhile, I was (am still am) packing a lunch every day, never eating out, while she had the starbucks habit and regularly goes out to restaurants, movies, concerts, etc.

So anyway, now I am more open with my students about my frugal ways and even have gotten emails from some of them once they got into college thanking me for teaching them how to survive on no money - and everyone knows I bike instead of drive, because they see me rolling my bike down the hall to my classroom. I might tell them "Yep, saved $30 this week by not driving" - but I don't tell coworkers how the savings add up.

[tod]

Fuck those people.

[conpewter]

...
The flip side: my boyfriend, raised in the same "spend-it-before-it-disappears!" mindset but who now really understands my frugality, sees my meteoric progress and has to fight some ingrained intimidation - on some deep level he expected to be taking care of me and it's really really clear now not only that I don't need it but that in fact he will have to catch up. He's can see it's a good thing, but intellectual insight may not make it much easier in this culture when he gets crap from cashiers for not paying for me because it was my turn.

For my wife and I we got past this just by me carrying around the restaurant budget, or fun money (for movies etc) so that I can always appear to be paying.  Maybe you could slip him cash before dinner or whatever activity?  Just makes social situations easier.

[CanuckExpat]

...
The flip side: my boyfriend, raised in the same "spend-it-before-it-disappears!" mindset but who now really understands my frugality, sees my meteoric progress and has to fight some ingrained intimidation - on some deep level he expected to be taking care of me and it's really really clear now not only that I don't need it but that in fact he will have to catch up. He's can see it's a good thing, but intellectual insight may not make it much easier in this culture when he gets crap from cashiers for not paying for me because it was my turn.

For my wife and I we got past this just by me carrying around the restaurant budget, or fun money (for movies etc) so that I can always appear to be paying.  Maybe you could slip him cash before dinner or whatever activity?  Just makes social situations easier.

First, you guys need to tell us how you found a way to travel back to the 1950s.

Seriously, this has never been a problem.. my wife and I dated for five years and we've been married for five more, I don't think I've ever come across this. Perhaps I'm oblivious to what other people think.

More importantly, it seems like you think you should be concerned about what judgmental people with simplistic/rigid views on gender roles think about you. Those people should be pitied, not given weight to their opinions and thoughts.

[daymare]

For my wife and I we got past this just by me carrying around the restaurant budget, or fun money (for movies etc) so that I can always appear to be paying.  Maybe you could slip him cash before dinner or whatever activity?  Just makes social situations easier.

Wow. Can't imagine how fragile your ego must be that you care SO much what others think and need to appear to pay for everything.  I actually make it a point to take the check if the waiter assumes my husband is the one who will pay (because I'd like to encourage them not to assume).  We have completely joint money, so it matters not whose CC we use.  Though we do like to joke around a lot - whenever someone pays, they'll be like 'dinner's on me' or 'my treat', and we both laugh.

[wenchsenior]

...
The flip side: my boyfriend, raised in the same "spend-it-before-it-disappears!" mindset but who now really understands my frugality, sees my meteoric progress and has to fight some ingrained intimidation - on some deep level he expected to be taking care of me and it's really really clear now not only that I don't need it but that in fact he will have to catch up. He's can see it's a good thing, but intellectual insight may not make it much easier in this culture when he gets crap from cashiers for not paying for me because it was my turn.

For my wife and I we got past this just by me carrying around the restaurant budget, or fun money (for movies etc) so that I can always appear to be paying.  Maybe you could slip him cash before dinner or whatever activity?  Just makes social situations easier.

WTF!? SO WEIRD.

[Cougar]

technically, if i lived like retiredtowin; i'm fire now; but my mom and dad would think me a quitter; so unfortunately i will have to work until they pass. my sister is just going to freak out when i hang it up a month after that, she's always got the latest car, clothes, etc.

[eyesonthehorizon]

...For my wife and I we got past this just by me carrying around the restaurant budget, or fun money (for movies etc) so that I can always appear to be paying.  Maybe you could slip him cash before dinner or whatever activity?  Just makes social situations easier.

We're not yet thirty, for some context. It seems more common in lower-income areas, which covers most of where we prefer to go out. He also LOOKS big and strong and I LOOK delicate and soft, in an almost comic-book stereotypical way, so people presume quite a bit about us.

But whereas he's the shy accommodating agreeable type and would probably be cool with this solution, I lean more toward pointed eye contact and a firm correction aimed at anybody who suggests that we're not fundamentally equals, he should have to buy my time or attention, or that I should have to win or reward his. Put frankly, I'm not shy, accommodating or agreeable to anyone who negatively confronts us or anyone over doing what works for them and doesn't cause anybody else any trouble - which I'm currently having to mute with the disappointingly judgmental responses I'm reading toward conpewter's family's solution.

Those of us who want to defy and educate by example will do so, but I get and respect that sometimes you just want to be private citizens and not have to condescend - literally - to educating the unwashed masses on your night out. It is both true that these people won't learn without counterexamples and that it's not your responsibility to address their shortcomings.

Which was also sort of the point to my original reply to the OP - no, you needn't consider the contradictory opinions of others in your life, but to ignore them out of hand is uncomfortable to many of us, as it is necessarily dismissive and proceeds from a prejudgement that your own opinion is self-evidently the right one. There are people who can do this, but a lot of us don't wish to dismiss lightly the opinions of others, even those with whom we fervently disagree - if the OP were entirely comfortable just throwing up hands with a "fine, nevermind," and carrying on quietly, they probably wouldn't trouble to post about it. There are plenty of good reasons to entertain ideas you don't agree with in interacting with the people who hold them - not least that you might refine your understanding of your own opinion, but also to identify compromises or arguments which may prove more valuable than your original direction - in short, we can learn from one another and collaborate. So I'd like to see more of this intellectual diversity in the mustachian community - we have a preponderance of hardheaded mavericks, because by definition they're the most likely to buck the dominant culture of consumerism, but that's not to say those are the only people we want or need. Sometimes those who want to build bridges for others rather than be content as to where they themselves stand wreak the biggest changes in the long run.

[Candace]

...For my wife and I we got past this just by me carrying around the restaurant budget, or fun money (for movies etc) so that I can always appear to be paying.  Maybe you could slip him cash before dinner or whatever activity?  Just makes social situations easier.

We're not yet thirty, for some context. It seems more common in lower-income areas, which covers most of where we prefer to go out. He also LOOKS big and strong and I LOOK delicate and soft, in an almost comic-book stereotypical way, so people presume quite a bit about us.

But whereas he's the shy accommodating agreeable type and would probably be cool with this solution, I lean more toward pointed eye contact and a firm correction aimed at anybody who suggests that we're not fundamentally equals, he should have to buy my time or attention, or that I should have to win or reward his. Put frankly, I'm not shy, accommodating or agreeable to anyone who negatively confronts us or anyone over doing what works for them and doesn't cause anybody else any trouble - which I'm currently having to mute with the disappointingly judgmental responses I'm reading toward conpewter's family's solution.

Those of us who want to defy and educate by example will do so, but I get and respect that sometimes you just want to be private citizens and not have to condescend - literally - to educating the unwashed masses on your night out. It is both true that these people won't learn without counterexamples and that it's not your responsibility to address their shortcomings.

Which was also sort of the point to my original reply to the OP - no, you needn't consider the contradictory opinions of others in your life, but to ignore them out of hand is uncomfortable to many of us, as it is necessarily dismissive and proceeds from a prejudgement that your own opinion is self-evidently the right one. There are people who can do this, but a lot of us don't wish to dismiss lightly the opinions of others, even those with whom we fervently disagree - if the OP were entirely comfortable just throwing up hands with a "fine, nevermind," and carrying on quietly, they probably wouldn't trouble to post about it. There are plenty of good reasons to entertain ideas you don't agree with in interacting with the people who hold them - not least that you might refine your understanding of your own opinion, but also to identify compromises or arguments which may prove more valuable than your original direction - in short, we can learn from one another and collaborate. So I'd like to see more of this intellectual diversity in the mustachian community - we have a preponderance of hardheaded mavericks, because by definition they're the most likely to buck the dominant culture of consumerism, but that's not to say those are the only people we want or need. Sometimes those who want to build bridges for others rather than be content as to where they themselves stand wreak the biggest changes in the long run.

Nice post!

Yes, there is a balance to be struck between trying to get the big ship of cultural expectations to turn toward the best heading, that is, where you don't presume the man is going to pay just because he's the man, you don't presume the woman will stay home with the kids just because she's a woman, etc., and just wanting to enjoy your evening out without pushback from people who think you should conform to roles that are limiting to everyone.

In kind of an amusing twist, my SO does actually pay for everything we do outside of the house (while I pay for everything having to do with the house), but since I have the better rewards cards, I "pay" the check and then he reimburses me with cash. So it looks as if I'm the one paying the check, when I'm not. This disturbs neither of us, but occasionally gets us funny looks. Plus, his son thanked me for lunch one time. I let the son know about our arrangement, even though it's really none of his business, so he would know his dad was treating him and not me.

[zephyr911]

This is kind of funny for me - I don't know if it's just a difference in peer groups or what, but even in Alabama, nobody gives us shit when DW pays for most groceries and meals out. She's been doing this ever since she got her first professional job, since I was covering most other stuff.

[CanuckExpat]

...
Put frankly, I'm not shy, accommodating or agreeable to anyone who negatively confronts us or anyone over doing what works for them and doesn't cause anybody else any trouble - which I'm currently having to mute with the disappointingly judgmental responses I'm reading toward conpewter's family's solution.
...
Which was also sort of the point to my original reply to the OP - no, you needn't consider the contradictory opinions of others in your life, but to ignore them out of hand is uncomfortable to many of us, as it is necessarily dismissive and proceeds from a prejudgement that your own opinion is self-evidently the right one
...
There are plenty of good reasons to entertain ideas you don't agree with in interacting with the people who hold them - not least that you might refine your understanding of your own opinion, but also to identify compromises or arguments which may prove more valuable than your original direction - in short, we can learn from one another and collaborate. So I'd like to see more of this intellectual diversity in the mustachian community - we have a preponderance of hardheaded mavericks, because by definition they're the most likely to buck the dominant culture of consumerism, but that's not to say those are the only people we want or need. Sometimes those who want to build bridges for others rather than be content as to where they themselves stand wreak the biggest changes in the long run.

I was one of those who voiced disapproval with conpewter's solution, your rebuttal to that was quite well written and does raise some things to consider, thank you.

However, regarding that solution, I think part of the reason me and others took umbrage with conpewter's solution was because it had an air of dishonesty: in essence they were putting on a charade so they could confirm to others preconceptions.

Relating back to the OPs predicament, would the equivalent solution be to lie if any OP's friends of family asked if he is still trying to save money? Similary, if/when OP does successfully early retire, should they be pretending to go a job every day so as not to ruffle people's feathers? Perhaps that is a solution for some, but I wouldn't recommend it.

All that said, I did take note of what you said horizon; I'm sure I can find something else to be overly judgmental and preachy about, it is the internet after all :)

[eyesonthehorizon]

...I think part of the reason me and others took umbrage with conpewter's solution was because it had an air of dishonesty: in essence they were putting on a charade so they could confirm to others preconceptions.

Relating back to the OPs predicament, would the equivalent solution be to lie if any OP's friends of family asked if he is still trying to save money? Similary, if/when OP does successfully early retire, should they be pretending to go a job every day so as not to ruffle people's feathers? Perhaps that is a solution for some, but I wouldn't recommend it.

As a preamble: D'aw, I love this bloody forum. People acting like grown adults is so refreshing. Awesome humaning. Thank you for existing.

And yeah, there's always a level of duplicitousness in "passing" for socially acceptable - we exist in a deeply artificial culture, so most people do it at some point* - but I'd say the level correlates directly with the effort you put into it. There are times you might choose to sidestep a battle with public opinion, but things change if it gets to the point of becoming a juggling act. The waitstaff are generally not people they're going to see again or out of a professional context, in this case, but I'm glad you used the OP's example as you did here because it's precisely what I was originally inclined to argue using: the OP could very well simply tell their relatives, "yes, I'm still trying to save," without having to follow it up with "so that I don't have to work until I'm your age". If they ER, it'd be (with most people) easy enough to say "Because I've saved enough I'm going to take some time for myself." It's not an out-and-out lie, and it ends the line of inquiry with most people without forcing you into an exhausting teaching role. But certainly, there's no point in smoothing things over when it becomes as much or more work than just explaining the truth to whatever degree you're willing to. Unless you're into improv farce, of course.

*Consider body shame and attendant enforced modifications, for example. It extends so far that men in many professional spheres until quite recently were expected to go about pretending their faces produced no beards. Quite barbaric - figuratively speaking.

[conpewter]

Wow. 

Ok, so... My wife and I have 1 checking account it is all "our" money. I carry the envelope for restaurant money, she carries the envelope for groceries.  I guess we could switch it up, but then I would have to be giving her grocery money all the time since she is much better with shopping than I am.  I guess she could carry them both, but why?

if who pays for a meal out of a joint checking account gets you all in such a hissy fit then you would crucify my dad over how he dealt with finances.

[conpewter]

...For my wife and I we got past this just by me carrying around the restaurant budget, or fun money (for movies etc) so that I can always appear to be paying.  Maybe you could slip him cash before dinner or whatever activity?  Just makes social situations easier.

We're not yet thirty, for some context. It seems more common in lower-income areas, which covers most of where we prefer to go out. He also LOOKS big and strong and I LOOK delicate and soft, in an almost comic-book stereotypical way, so people presume quite a bit about us.

But whereas he's the shy accommodating agreeable type and would probably be cool with this solution, I lean more toward pointed eye contact and a firm correction aimed at anybody who suggests that we're not fundamentally equals, he should have to buy my time or attention, or that I should have to win or reward his. Put frankly, I'm not shy, accommodating or agreeable to anyone who negatively confronts us or anyone over doing what works for them and doesn't cause anybody else any trouble - which I'm currently having to mute with the disappointingly judgmental responses I'm reading toward conpewter's family's solution.

Those of us who want to defy and educate by example will do so, but I get and respect that sometimes you just want to be private citizens and not have to condescend - literally - to educating the unwashed masses on your night out. It is both true that these people won't learn without counterexamples and that it's not your responsibility to address their shortcomings.

Which was also sort of the point to my original reply to the OP - no, you needn't consider the contradictory opinions of others in your life, but to ignore them out of hand is uncomfortable to many of us, as it is necessarily dismissive and proceeds from a prejudgement that your own opinion is self-evidently the right one. There are people who can do this, but a lot of us don't wish to dismiss lightly the opinions of others, even those with whom we fervently disagree - if the OP were entirely comfortable just throwing up hands with a "fine, nevermind," and carrying on quietly, they probably wouldn't trouble to post about it. There are plenty of good reasons to entertain ideas you don't agree with in interacting with the people who hold them - not least that you might refine your understanding of your own opinion, but also to identify compromises or arguments which may prove more valuable than your original direction - in short, we can learn from one another and collaborate. So I'd like to see more of this intellectual diversity in the mustachian community - we have a preponderance of hardheaded mavericks, because by definition they're the most likely to buck the dominant culture of consumerism, but that's not to say those are the only people we want or need. Sometimes those who want to build bridges for others rather than be content as to where they themselves stand wreak the biggest changes in the long run.

Thanks for this response.

I've never had people looking at my wife and I in any sort of strange way when we are out to dinner and one or the other pays (that i noticed), just when we started doing the envelope system for ourselves it just worked out best for me to carry the restaurant budget, and I thought it might be relevant to the OPs problem.

[conpewter]

For my wife and I we got past this just by me carrying around the restaurant budget, or fun money (for movies etc) so that I can always appear to be paying.  Maybe you could slip him cash before dinner or whatever activity?  Just makes social situations easier.

Wow. Can't imagine how fragile your ego must be that you care SO much what others think and need to appear to pay for everything.  I actually make it a point to take the check if the waiter assumes my husband is the one who will pay (because I'd like to encourage them not to assume).  We have completely joint money, so it matters not whose CC we use.  Though we do like to joke around a lot - whenever someone pays, they'll be like 'dinner's on me' or 'my treat', and we both laugh.

I guess it would seem that way.  The post didn't really have the tone I intended.  Suffice it to say that my wife and I are quite happy dealing with different parts of the budget and being accountable to each other in that.

[projekt]

He nearly swallowed his cigarette he was shocked.... he's a 2nd year resident,

Oops, there's the real WTF in this thread!

[MgoSam]

He nearly swallowed his cigarette he was shocked.... he's a 2nd year resident,

Oops, there's the real WTF in this thread!

You'll be surprised how many doctors smoke. I know a surgeon who smokes and he mentioned that many of his fellow surgeons will chew during a surgery...he swears that he doesn't but I don't know if I believe him.

[projekt]

You'll be surprised how many doctors smoke. I know a surgeon who smokes and he mentioned that many of his fellow surgeons will chew during a surgery...he swears that he doesn't but I don't know if I believe him.

I'm sure lots do, as it's addictive. But it undermines their credibility to a very large extent, and they should stop.

[kite]

He nearly swallowed his cigarette he was shocked.... he's a 2nd year resident,

Oops, there's the real WTF in this thread!

Hah!
I was thinking WTF with the "restaurant budget envelope" thing.  I can't recall who paid each of the 3 times we dined out in past 24 months.   I think restaurant meals are the biggest cause of bankruptcy and financial woes, so it's not a regular enough thing for us to even have an envelope. 

[Potterquilter]

On the other hand, if you enjoy going to a restaurant sticking to a preset amount per month or year or whatever is the way to do it.

Personally I hate to go out to eat. I can cook better, my food at home is hot and I know I washed my hands after going to the bathroom. I don't know the same is true in a restaurant despite the signs in the restroom.

That visual should prevent everyone from eating out tomorrow.