Author Topic: Private school fees surpass $40,000  (Read 8658 times)

Bloop Bloop

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Private school fees surpass $40,000
« on: February 08, 2020, 11:38:31 PM »
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/victoria-s-private-school-fees-smash-40-000-mark-20200205-p53xxn.html

Damn, that's profligate. I thought spending on things like handbags and branded t-shirts was bad...now there are even branded schools that cost $500,000 over a 12-year education, per child!

And I know heaps of families who do send their children to such schools - including not very rich ones.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2020, 02:49:51 AM »
I wonder if they still try to have the kids/parents participate in fundraisers if they're charging $40k per student?



Private school for our kids is $12.5k for four kids (K-8). Call it about $14k once you add in various application and other fees. That includes getting the 4th child free. This is a small Catholic school. The very nice, "name brand" private school here is about $20k per year if you don't get any tuition assistance. The other private high schools are generally $10-15k. Don't think we'll be paying for that when the time comes.

Tuition Ė Grades K-8
1st Child $5,000.00/year
2nd Child $4,000.00/year 20% discount
3rd Child $3,500.00/year 30% discount
4th Child Free

ysette9

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2020, 02:34:22 PM »
I donít get the private school thing. Okay, if I isnít have a public language immersion option then I would consider private. But otherwise Iím colored by my own experience as a kid. We went to a private Christian school for four years where the kids were beastly mean and the education was decidedly sub-par. Going to public school was initially scary but in the end was a breath of fresh air.

OtherJen

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2020, 02:41:03 PM »
I donít get the private school thing. Okay, if I isnít have a public language immersion option then I would consider private. But otherwise Iím colored by my own experience as a kid. We went to a private Christian school for four years where the kids were beastly mean and the education was decidedly sub-par. Going to public school was initially scary but in the end was a breath of fresh air.

Same. I attended a private Catholic school for K-8 and begged to leave after being bullied straight through my 6th grade year. I wasn't allowed to switch until after two more hellish years during which I pretty much gave up academically because I was so miserable. The public high school was so much less stressful and had many more academic and arts options and many highly engaged teachers.

To be fair, we lived in a very good public school district (which makes it even more confusing why my parents nearly drove themselves broke keeping me in a Catholic school that I didn't like, at a parish that we all hated). I can understand exploring private/charter options in a poor school district.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2020, 03:28:05 PM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.

AMandM

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2020, 03:42:32 PM »
Are private schools like private colleges, in that the sticker price is really high but lots of people get financial aid and pay much less?

Hula Hoop

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2020, 03:58:00 PM »
I just don't get the private school thing.

LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2020, 04:05:15 PM »
Are private schools like private colleges, in that the sticker price is really high but lots of people get financial aid and pay much less?

No.

In Australia, where Bloop and I live and where the article is written about, private p-12 schooling makes up ~30% of the schools. This is largely made possible by bizarre federal government education spending where ANY school will receive $x per pupil, regardless of if the school is public, private or independent. While the more prestigious schools each will offer scholarships this would be ~5% of the student base, maybe ~10% at the most generous schools.

I could literally talk for hours on this topic, and would be happy to go into granular detail, having worked in education for a decade I've got quite a bit to say!

charis

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2020, 05:16:56 PM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.

AKA, low income children of color. At least in our highly segregated region.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2020, 05:30:54 PM »
I donít get the private school thing.
In Australia there is a website called MySchool offering stats on schools. Most significantly, they look at the school's demographics by ICSEA - a measure of the wealth and education of the child's parents. The mythical balanced school would be 25-25-25-25 in each quartile. In our area there is one school which is something like 55% bottom quartile and 5% top quartile, another the reverse. Which do you think has students do better?

When matched for demographics, private and state schools gets similar results. Private school fees are essentially you paying to ensure your children spend a lot of time with people from the upper quartile.

In some of the posher schools there's also the old boy's network getting you flash jobs right out of university. But that's a minority even of the posh schools. For most people it's just paying for demographics.

My children go to a bilingual state school. It's about 55% top quartile. However, even bilingual schools with mostly children from lower ICSEA demographics do well. Bilingual schools attract professional parents (high ICSEA) but also recent migrants, who tend to care a lot about education; thus historically decent results from Catholic (Italian) and Orthodox (Greek) schools, despite their parents sometimes having quite poor educations.

Of course, the other purpose of huge school fees is social signalling, the same as a lot of other kinds of spending. Gotta impress those people you don't like!

iris lily

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2020, 06:34:26 PM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.
What a snarky, unnecessary remark.


RFAAOATB

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2020, 06:36:45 PM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.

AKA, low income children of color. At least in our highly segregated region.

We hear a lot about poor minority segregated schools, but we know there are more poor white kids than poor minority kids.  Where do the poor white kids go to school?  Are they all concentrated out in the rural areas that are poor majority white and no one pays attention to, or are they spread out in the middle class suburbs trying to blend in?

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2020, 07:17:10 PM »
What a snarky, unnecessary remark.
It's correct, though. Children are influenced by their parents, and by their peers. It's snobbery, but it's also statistics: if you spend time with people smarter and/or wealthier than you, you are more likely yourself to end up smarter and wealthier.

Of course, there are things in life worth pursuing outside academic success and financial wealth. But if that's what you want your children to go for, then you need to send them to a place with a lot of kids whose parents are in the top quartile of educational and wealth advantage.

ysette9

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2020, 07:25:35 PM »
In the US at least the best predictor by far of how well kids will do is the educational attainment and financial position of their parents. Not what school they went to or whether they rubbed elbows with the unwashed masses or not.

God forbid kids go to school with people from the bottom quartile and learn that there are different people in the world

charis

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2020, 07:45:51 PM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.
What a snarky, unnecessary remark.

Actually 100% necessary

LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2020, 07:53:07 PM »
Given that the article is about Australia:

1. POSTCODE is the most accurate single predictor of school results, not parents' attainment levels - the lesson here is that poverty, in of itself, isn't that helpful a marker of attainment, but that postcode is a proxy fora  bunch of other stuff. For example suburbs where the median income is low but the rate of immigration is high tend to do a lot better than where the income is low and the immigration is low (generally)

2. Minorities tend to do well in the education system here, with the incredibly notable exception of Indigenous Australians (who also tend not to get high marks even in schools.communities where they are not a minority, which is a huge failure and speaks to how badly we're failing reconciliation...)

3. Australia has one of the best education systems in the world for improving under-performing students and one of the worst for enabling high achieving students to do well (and that's across sectors, including the private sector and tertiary students), so the 'minorities bringing people down' is absolutely not a realistic line here (though it can be social signalling) it's more that our society/education systems do not enable students to get to A+ levels in (comparably) large numbers. If you're at a D or E level and want to get to a C or B level Australia is just about perfect. If you want to go from a B to an A+ Australia is set against you

4. To come back to the pricing - Private Schools are a classic Verbellen good - the higher they price themselves the more exclusive and elite they seem. To be exclusive and elite is to be seen as desirable and successful, even though in the context of education these things are unrelated.

5. I'm not sure Kyle would even agree with this point "then you need to send them to a place with a lot of kids whose parents are in the top quartile of educational and wealth advantage." - it's way too simplistic and ignores a lot of other options (selective government schools being a totally obvious example), but does capture the thinking of a subset of parents quite aptly.

6. One thing we've not mentioned is that Australia - and especially Victoria's - assessment practices are deliberately and institutionally regressive, that is they have been designed and maintained to make it easier to do better if you're from a high achieving cohort, even if your performance is not particularly good. In this way, attending an elite school IS buying marks.


More broadly, education in Australia is in a precarious place, we tend to do well globally, but with an increasing lack of quality teachers, a history of (largely) bad policy, rusted on industrial conditions and a parenting culture that's way different to the educational culture, as well as a massive over-reliance on shaky structures around international students and bizarre federal funding we need to get our act together.


LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2020, 07:55:04 PM »
"Upwardly mobile middle class"

I don't really think that this exists anymore - does anyone? Wages are stagnant, wealth is increasing concentrated in the hands of older people, population demographics mean that young people can't vote in candidates that represent their interests with any consistency (while old people can much more easily), who is moving between classes (or more accurately ICSIA levels?), not too many people....

charis

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2020, 07:59:37 PM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.

AKA, low income children of color. At least in our highly segregated region.

We hear a lot about poor minority segregated schools, but we know there are more poor white kids than poor minority kids.  Where do the poor white kids go to school?  Are they all concentrated out in the rural areas that are poor majority white and no one pays attention to, or are they spread out in the middle class suburbs trying to blend in?

Good question. I l live in an urban area so most of the urban students are black or Hispanic due to a profound history of redlining.  Which of course gives us the present day suburban dweller's mythology that poor city folks don't care about their homes or their education. There are poor white students of course but many move to the lower income suburbs.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2020, 08:10:06 PM »
What a snarky, unnecessary remark.
It's correct, though. Children are influenced by their parents, and by their peers. It's snobbery, but it's also statistics: if you spend time with people smarter and/or wealthier than you, you are more likely yourself to end up smarter and wealthier.

Of course, there are things in life worth pursuing outside academic success and financial wealth. But if that's what you want your children to go for, then you need to send them to a place with a lot of kids whose parents are in the top quartile of educational and wealth advantage.

But there is nothing to suggest that the snobbery gives any causal benefit to the students. The "benefit" (if that's what it is) of social branding to the parents is obvious, as is the related benefit of assuaging parents' anxieties about "not doing enough for their children". But I'm not aware of studies that show that the much better performance of rich schools is due to the schools themselves rather than a natural incident of the demographic of the schools.

In other words, I don't know that a child from intelligent, successful parents who went to a poor school would do any worse than that same child who went to a rich school.

Admittedly, it's hard to gain data because most children from intelligent, successful parents tend to go to rich schools. Hopefully my future children will buck the trend because I don't believe in paying privately for an education.

###

I should remark also that here in Australia, our high school curriculum is extremely flat (all the subjects are relatively easy by international standards, our objective performance in literacy and numeracy is poor, and there is no widespread use of streaming). In a country like the U.S. where the rich schools might stream children heavily and teach them high-level content at an early age, there would be an objective benefit to going to a "great" school. In a country like Australia where our standardised high school curricula seem to be aimed at the lowest common denominator, I can't see any benefit whatsoever, other than snobbery and anxiety-reduction.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2020, 08:12:50 PM »
To add on to LonerMatt's comments, there are huge structural problems with our educational system. In particular, I agree with his remarks that we are failing our bright students - we are stultifying their minds. No one seems to care though because our society is desperately anti-intellectual. At least in the U.S., parents, students and colleges care about SAT scores and academic achievement. No one cares about that stuff here. School is seen as only a route to get a university degree.

LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2020, 08:13:26 PM »
Streaming doesn't work mate.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2020, 08:18:06 PM »
My understanding is that streaming has been shown by most studies to have a positive effect on the highest-tracked children. There is no consensus about whether it has a positive, neutral or negative effect on everyone else. Some studies show that streaming causes worse outcomes in low and low-middle track children.

LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2020, 08:28:30 PM »
But there is nothing to suggest that the snobbery gives any causal benefit to the students. The "benefit" (if that's what it is) of social branding to the parents is obvious, as is the related benefit of assuaging parents' anxieties about "not doing enough for their children". But I'm not aware of studies that show that the much better performance of rich schools is due to the schools themselves rather than a natural incident of the demographic of the schools.

In other words, I don't know that a child from intelligent, successful parents who went to a poor school would do any worse than that same child who went to a rich school.

So, to broadly answer your question, the answer is ' most likely they would do worse'.

To unpack that a bit there's a few things to mention:

- Kyle mentioned above that the degree to which someone learns can have something to do with their cohort (more specifically the efficacy their cohort imparts) - lower performing schools tend to have a lower efficacy around attainment, learning and progress, and tend to do worse (also one of the main reasons streaming makes education systems much worse, fyi) - this is the #1 effect on student progress (according to current research), so it cannot be under-stated. Students who believe they will do well, and students who are in an environment that makes that explicit, tend to progress significantly faster

- Additionally, I'm sure you're aware that ATAR is a highly attenuated mark, a lot of the attenuation relates to the results of your peers, it's deemed harder to get an 'A' if your class have a high level of 'A's' than if they don't (which is directly contradicted by research and common sense), so even if a student is achieving well their achievement can be attenuated severely (especially in VIC and NSW, much less so in WA)

- There are, always, exceptions. One of the tough things parents have to work out is whether their child will be exceptional or not. Every year there are some students from low income areas that do brilliantly, but they are few and, on average, extreme exceptions. How easily can someone determine if that's going to be their child? Additionally, something like a 99 ATAR doesn't realistically open that many more doors than a 95, etc, etc, it's a hot mess!

There's a bunch more that could be said, and I'm leaving stuff out for the sake of brevity, but we can delve deeper !

Quote
I should remark also that here in Australia, our high school curriculum is extremely flat (all the subjects are relatively easy by international standards, our objective performance in literacy and numeracy is poor, and there is no widespread use of streaming). In a country like the U.S. where the rich schools might stream children heavily and teach them high-level content at an early age, there would be an objective benefit to going to a "great" school. In a country like Australia where our standardised high school curricula seem to be aimed at the lowest common denominator, I can't see any benefit whatsoever, other than snobbery and anxiety-reduction.

1. I'd be interested in how you've arrived at it being flat - how did you come to that conclusion?
2. I think you mean our achievement within PISA/G20 - globally we are still quite high up, but that's a low bar
3. I don't think the curriculum is set at the lowest common denominator - have you read the Australian curriculum skill points?
4. More often than not Australia beats out the USA, I'd be very wary of deriving much from the USA's education system, there are a few good things, but they are largely not that successful

I suspect the fourth point will be something where we'll diverge. PISA/education system assessments are, by definition, looking at the success for an average student, parents often are interested in just the success of their child. These are, often, at odds. The countries that do very well at PISA tend to have great policy and pedagogy that lifts all students, often through very holistic/non-streamed methods (in fact European countries with split schooling systems have tended not to perform very well and the ones that shift away from those have tended to do better).

China, as always, is veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy happy to stack their own deck here, but I suspect that you didn't need a reminder of that ;)

LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2020, 08:31:30 PM »
My understanding is that streaming has been shown by most studies to have a positive effect on the highest-tracked children. There is no consensus about whether it has a positive, neutral or negative effect on everyone else. Some studies show that streaming causes worse outcomes in low and low-middle track children.

This is definitely correct. I think we're looking at it from an individual (ie, my kid) versus a systemic (ie, ALL kids) level.

Streaming can help kids at the top.

Streaming does make educational systems less effective (lower PISA rankings, etc).

So, perhaps to come back to some of your earlier comments, if you desired Australia's education system to be more competitive then you'd be staunchly against streaming. If you wanted your own high achiever to do well and didn't give a flying fuck about anything else, streaming would, potentially, be positive.

I do find it an odd practice to single out - there are literally dozens of more effective ways to increase student progress and attainment.

LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2020, 08:36:16 PM »
At least in the U.S., parents, students and colleges care about SAT scores and academic achievement. No one cares about that stuff here. School is seen as only a route to get a university degree.

Except the Asian and Indian students and their families ;)

There are many routes to having a high performing system. Some countries (netherlands, poland, estonia, finland) do not emphasise scores and perform very highly. Some (Singapore, HK) emphasise scores but see little success in other areas (Singapore famously sent teachers here a few years ago to learn how to improve creativity and critical thinking).

Choices are compromises, we're just choosing which compromises we can live with.

Ideally I'd like to see an education system that:
- Defunds private school
- Has egalitarian but high challenge academic success as it's #1 priority for fewer, more specific subjects
- Has student safety and well-being as its #2 priority
- Rewrites a lot of the policy/industrial contracts around teaching making it a profession that can retain teachers like me who love the work but hate the job

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2020, 09:06:11 PM »
I'm not sure Kyle would even agree with this point "then you need to send them to a place with a lot of kids whose parents are in the top quartile of educational and wealth advantage." - it's way too simplistic and ignores a lot of other options
It does indeed ignore a lot of other options. But I would suggest that the sort of person who will toss half a million at each child's education lacks the imagination and time to think of them. They're too busy in their 60+hr pw job to worry about it.


As I hinted, I think other things are more important than simply academic success and money. For example, we know the Harvard Grant and similar studies that a warm supportive childhood is a big predictor of the child's happiness in their own old age, the warmth of the boys' relationship with their father (and girls' with their mothers) a predictor of how likely they are to have a happy marriage themselves, and so on. My household could earn more money and send our children to a private school, but at the cost of time with them. We believe the tradeoff will lead to a better outcome overall, the inequation being,


private school + distant parents < state school + close parents


Obviously if it were a really awful/good state/private school this might change. Here's the thing: my mother withdrew me from a state high school because she thought it was "too rough." In my first year at the private school I had my wrist broken, in my third year a kid was expelled after breaking a coke bottle and stabbing another kid in the belly and neck with it. But at that same private school I had one of the most inspiring individuals ever as an English teacher, and later an uninspiring but strict and effective physics teacher, and their lessons academic (both) and moral (one) remain with me to this day. And of course as the royal commission into institutional child abuse found, nasty things happened at private schools a lot more than state schools. Times have changed and much less of that stuff happens now, of course.


So we can look at trends only, and can't control everything. But I see the inequation as above; others will make different assumptions and set it up differently. That's up to them, it's their money and children. I don't want to be the last lines of Cats in the Cradle. I'd rather be involved as a father, which requires less work hours, which means less money. A man's place is in the home.


Good schools turn children into educated people. Good parents turn children into decent people. Together they make them into useful people. Obviously there is overlap since parents can also teach children things, teachers can be role models, and so on.

Just Joe

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2020, 08:45:07 AM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.

AKA, low income children of color. At least in our highly segregated region.

Yes, this put some things in perspective for me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy

iris lily

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2020, 08:51:21 AM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.
What a snarky, unnecessary remark.

Actually 100% necessary

Well letís break down this snarky comment then.

The prejudice isnt really about ďlow incomeĒ is it? Itís about values that can (but do not always) go with household income, meaning parents who do not value the public school education their children receive.

This translates into a daily life of failing to get their children to school regularly, failing to work with their kids on homework and academic endeavors, feeding their kids junk or failing to feed them appropriately at all, failing to provide a secure home base, etc.

 This means the kids fail too and create chaos and lags in their classrooms when they DO show up to school.

This all reflects values.

So sure, if you (the generic you) want your children associating closely with people who share your values, that seems reasonable to me. Wealth plays into it but is not  the real issue.

Disparaging a set of values by incorrectly tying them to  dollars obscures the argument.

I dont have kids. If I did I would want them at a school with peers. You can define peers however you like, but I wouldnt use dollars as the metric.

But we can all probably make fun of the $40,000 school for 8 year olds because it's ridiculous and is only valued by those East Coast princely leaders of society. I wouldnt want my decidedly middle-class children achieving in that mileau, unless perhaps they were extraordinarily brilliant and got scholarships (wouldn't happen with my genes.). But even then, I would think twice abput exposing them to those values.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 08:56:44 AM by iris lily »

charis

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2020, 09:28:43 AM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.
What a snarky, unnecessary remark.

Actually 100% necessary

Well letís break down this snarky comment then.

The prejudice isnt really about ďlow incomeĒ is it? Itís about values that can (but do not always) go with household income, meaning parents who do not value the public school education their children receive.

This translates into a daily life of failing to get their children to school regularly, failing to work with their kids on homework and academic endeavors, feeding their kids junk or failing to feed them appropriately at all, failing to provide a secure home base, etc.

 This means the kids fail too and create chaos and lags in their classrooms when they DO show up to school.

This all reflects values.

So sure, if you (the generic you) want your children associating closely with people who share your values, that seems reasonable to me. Wealth plays into it but is not  the real issue.

Disparaging a set of values by incorrectly tying them to  dollars obscures the argument.

I dont have kids. If I did I would want them at a school with peers. You can define peers however you like, but I wouldnt use dollars as the metric.

But we can all probably make fun of the $40,000 school for 8 year olds because it's ridiculous and is only valued by those East Coast princely leaders of society. I wouldnt want my decidedly middle-class children achieving in that mileau, unless perhaps they were extraordinarily brilliant and got scholarships (wouldn't happen with my genes.). But even then, I would think twice abput exposing them to those values.

I don't understand your point with this post. You seem to be saying that public schools are filled with students whose families that don't value their education.  That's a lazy, but classic and wide spread belief held by those who would rather not take more than a superficial look at their intellectual "values".  There are many reasons why the largest, poorest, under performing school districts in the country are comprised of urban black students.  Hint, it's not because that population doesn't value education.

I did not read any snark in that comment.

BlueHouse

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2020, 10:45:34 AM »
I read an article about many progressive parents wanting their children to experience diversity.  Moving to diverse neighborhoods, sending kids to diverse schools, etc.  But even in these most liberal and progressive areas (and mindsets), when it comes to THEIR kid BEING the minority, the parents balked.  I live in one of these areas.  I asked around and the parents of kids who started school before the new gentrified school was opened up sent their kids to private school.  The ones after the new public school opened sent them there.  BUT...they're all still saying they don't know what they'll do once their kids hit 5th grade.   

I think it's two things:  1) some of these public schools aren't just open to the masses.  They can be downright dangerous.  and 2) Think about your own experiences being in an inclusive situation or actually being the minority yourself. 

charis

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2020, 11:33:55 AM »
But even in these most liberal and progressive areas (and mindsets), when it comes to THEIR kid BEING the minority, the parents balked.  I live in one of these areas.

I see it too, well off white* families who want diversity but on their terms.  A predominantly black (and/or poor population) school is seen as lesser right out of the gate.  I'm guilty of this bias myself, which I finally realized by examining why I initially felt uncomfortable with the idea of my kid being a minority student. It was an ugly realization.

*Primarily

iris lily

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2020, 12:04:52 PM »
It seems like itís getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.
What a snarky, unnecessary remark.

Actually 100% necessary

Well letís break down this snarky comment then.

The prejudice isnt really about ďlow incomeĒ is it? Itís about values that can (but do not always) go with household income, meaning parents who do not value the public school education their children receive.

This translates into a daily life of failing to get their children to school regularly, failing to work with their kids on homework and academic endeavors, feeding their kids junk or failing to feed them appropriately at all, failing to provide a secure home base, etc.

 This means the kids fail too and create chaos and lags in their classrooms when they DO show up to school.

This all reflects values.

So sure, if you (the generic you) want your children associating closely with people who share your values, that seems reasonable to me. Wealth plays into it but is not  the real issue.

Disparaging a set of values by incorrectly tying them to  dollars obscures the argument.

I dont have kids. If I did I would want them at a school with peers. You can define peers however you like, but I wouldnt use dollars as the metric.

But we can all probably make fun of the $40,000 school for 8 year olds because it's ridiculous and is only valued by those East Coast princely leaders of society. I wouldnt want my decidedly middle-class children achieving in that mileau, unless perhaps they were extraordinarily brilliant and got scholarships (wouldn't happen with my genes.). But even then, I would think twice abput exposing them to those values.

I don't understand your point with this post. You seem to be saying that public schools are filled with students whose families that don't value their education.  That's a lazy, but classic and wide spread belief held by those who would rather not take more than a superficial look at their intellectual "values".  There are many reasons why the largest, poorest, under performing school districts in the country are comprised of urban black students.  Hint, it's not because that population doesn't value education.

I did not read any snark in that comment.

I live in the midst of a large, Urban underperforming and expensive-per-pupil public school district.

I see daily evidence ď that populationĒ doesn't value education. Doesn't value it to the point of placing it as a priority. This is how we carry out values, living them, taking action based on values.

But the entire school system here isnt full of bad (to use a simplistic word) students. Each school has a different personality and vibe depending on its students. Plenty of schools here would be ok for my family if I had kids. Plenty would not be ok. I am including here the charters since they all serve the same population.

As for diversity, I dont see how children in my city can avoid diversity.  That some parents wish to hold out their children from being social experiments just seems like good, protective parenting to me. Finding the best educational experience for your children is the responsible thing to do.

If yaíll want to consider that elitist, you get to do that.

I went to public schools so have no first hand knowledge about private schools.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 12:06:59 PM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2020, 12:50:01 PM »
I wonder if that $40,000 education is similar to the $20,000 educations here in flyover country.  Bet they are because  east coast real estate is expensive and drives up the costs of everything associated with it.

I said I didnít have experience with private schools, but then I completely forgot that I have, for the past several years,  participated in events at two private schools in my region so I have a little bit of exposure.  One school is the most expensive school in my region by far with a tuition bill of tuition  of $30,000+  annually. It is a school for special needs  kids. Their art teacher is outstanding.


charis

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2020, 02:24:02 PM »
It's "protective parenting" to avoid "that population" or else you are making your kid "a social experiment"?  Stop hiding behind the word "values".

Those are your feelings.  And a lot of people share them. But let us and them not pretend to be liberal, progressive, and inclusive while our values and the road to a good education and wealth is propped up by a history of redling, white flight, and housing segregation, among the other poorly keep secrets of the higher class. 

"Elitist" is jargon that is basically meaningless now.

LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2020, 02:53:10 PM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?

None of what you guys have written is that relevant to the article or Australia more generally.

charis

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2020, 03:01:34 PM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?

None of what you guys have written is that relevant to the article or Australia more generally.

Sorry, didn't realize the discussion had to concern Australia.

iris lily

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2020, 04:15:27 PM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?

None of what you guys have written is that relevant to the article or Australia more generally.

This discussion IS cool for highlighting what is going on in
Australia. I didn't realize the $40,000 private school was there. Probably there are elementary schools in NYC that exceed that is cost.

mm1970

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2020, 05:15:47 PM »
I read an article about many progressive parents wanting their children to experience diversity.  Moving to diverse neighborhoods, sending kids to diverse schools, etc.  But even in these most liberal and progressive areas (and mindsets), when it comes to THEIR kid BEING the minority, the parents balked.  I live in one of these areas.  I asked around and the parents of kids who started school before the new gentrified school was opened up sent their kids to private school.  The ones after the new public school opened sent them there.  BUT...they're all still saying they don't know what they'll do once their kids hit 5th grade.   

I think it's two things:  1) some of these public schools aren't just open to the masses.  They can be downright dangerous.  and 2) Think about your own experiences being in an inclusive situation or actually being the minority yourself.
I live in a fairly progressive area.  The number of SHOCKED faces I get, or "OH" looks when they ask me where my kids go to school.

(Elementary district, 70% Latino/Hispanic, 48% English learner.  Junior high school, 90% Latino/Hispanic, 45% English learner). 

Like they just cannot IMAGINE sending their kids to THAT school.  The HORROR.  Many moved/ rented/ bought houses intentionally away.  Others transferred (open transfers).  Still others opted for private school.

(My kids are fine.  My junior high kid got a perfect score on the ELA and math state tests last year.)

charis

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2020, 06:06:17 PM »
It's interesting that many white/wealthier folks who have never stepped into a school that is predominately black or brown and/or students assume that it is either unsafe or insufficient.  I know everyone here is well informed and more likely to think outside the box, but a lot of people do zero personal research, and avoid critical thinking even, when it comes to the idea that their kid might be a minority student.  But that's the default, right - my kid deserves better.  Never mind the research and the graduation rates for wealthy white students from educated families (generally the same as in wealthier districts and shows that integration helps poorer students).  Democratic politicians can barely talk about integration with risking a backlash from their progressive constituents.  It's the same as it ever was.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2020, 11:52:49 PM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?
Americans tend not to know understand when they're irrelevant. Must be their education system.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2020, 07:08:38 AM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?

None of what you guys have written is that relevant to the article or Australia more generally.

I am interested in how ideas of residential, economic, educational, and racial segregation manifest in Australia.  Are race and income highly correlated there? Is there a strong desire for white Australians to avoid too high a concentration of Indigenous and other minority Australians in schools and neighborhoods?

UnleashHell

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2020, 08:18:25 AM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?
Americans tend not to know understand when they're irrelevant. Must be their education system.


The structure of your first sentence being proof that the Australian education system is far superior!

iris lily

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2020, 10:11:02 AM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?
Americans tend not to know understand when they're irrelevant. Must be their education system.
I admit it, this made me laugh!

LonerMatt

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2020, 12:40:14 PM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?

None of what you guys have written is that relevant to the article or Australia more generally.

I am interested in how ideas of residential, economic, educational, and racial segregation manifest in Australia.  Are race and income highly correlated there? Is there a strong desire for white Australians to avoid too high a concentration of Indigenous and other minority Australians in schools and neighborhoods?

Generally, schools with high Indigenous enrollment are rural or remote, in those cases parents don't actively avoid the schools as there aren't many options and the communities tend to be more integrated. I'm sure there's an element of it, but it's not too obvious.

There are some elements of white flight, though it's not prevalent. This usually happens when an area experiences an influx of new immigrants or new population and the schools become very different and very strained (due to rapidly increasing student numbers). This is not common.

Racial dynamics in Australia are not perfect and we have a lot of problems, however the issues that you've brought up are not common ones, IME, here in Australia.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2020, 11:16:58 PM »
In other words, I don't know that a child from intelligent, successful parents who went to a poor school would do any worse than that same child who went to a rich school.

So, to broadly answer your question, the answer is ' most likely they would do worse'.

The question is, if they do worse, is that due to an inherent cohort effect (worse academic learning) or is it due to some other cohort effect (more advantageous scaling/better preparation for exams)? If the latter, then there might be a benefit solely for getting into uni, but there will be no benefit otherwise.

The current research suggests that private school children don't do as well as public school children with the same ATAR, which suggests that any cohort effect is likely to be a distortion.

https://theconversation.com/state-school-kids-do-better-at-uni-29155

Quote
1. I'd be interested in how you've arrived at it being flat - how did you come to that conclusion?

3. I don't think the curriculum is set at the lowest common denominator - have you read the Australian curriculum skill points?

Growing up, my family travelled around internationally and I had experience of multiple school jurisdictions.

Australia had the flattest schooling system. There is little variation up or down. Streaming here is discouraged, which means that the top students are brought down to the average level and the slow students struggle without being given remedial classes.

The lack of streaming means that tailored teaching is very difficult. In the U.S., for example, I was streamed to +4 grade years (and other, smarter children were streamed to +6 grades - the range was from -3 to +6). In Australia, I've never seen a kid get streamed more than 2-3 years ahead. Teachers won't allow it. If you're good at a subject, you're encouraged to get perfect marks rather than being encouraged to keep learning harder stuff until you fail and exhaust your ability.

Indeed, our VCE subjects like Chemistry, Biology, Psychology, History etc only have one tier. Besides mathematics and foreign languages, there are few subjects with multiple tiers for more advanced or less advanced students. This leads to the stultifying of those at the top of the class, and the neglect of those at the bottom.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2020, 11:20:30 PM »
Can we go back to discussing Australia yet?

None of what you guys have written is that relevant to the article or Australia more generally.

I am interested in how ideas of residential, economic, educational, and racial segregation manifest in Australia.  Are race and income highly correlated there? Is there a strong desire for white Australians to avoid too high a concentration of Indigenous and other minority Australians in schools and neighborhoods?

There is an interesting racial dynamic in that the expensive private schools are largely all-white whereas the public selective schools - which achieve just as good academic results since they draw in the elite performing students - have a huge number of Asian and Indian students. I have anecdotally heard that a lot of white parents prefer their children to go to an expensive private school even if the child is smart enough to get into the (much, much cheaper) public selective school, just because they don't want to subject their child to the perceived hot-housing that Asian and Indian kids go through.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2020, 10:42:32 AM »

The lack of streaming means that tailored teaching is very difficult. In the U.S., for example, I was streamed to +4 grade years (and other, smarter children were streamed to +6 grades - the range was from -3 to +6). In Australia, I've never seen a kid get streamed more than 2-3 years ahead. Teachers won't allow it. If you're good at a subject, you're encouraged to get perfect marks rather than being encouraged to keep learning harder stuff until you fail and exhaust your ability.

Indeed, our VCE subjects like Chemistry, Biology, Psychology, History etc only have one tier. Besides mathematics and foreign languages, there are few subjects with multiple tiers for more advanced or less advanced students. This leads to the stultifying of those at the top of the class, and the neglect of those at the bottom.

My experience in school was maybe 1-2 years ahead at most, I don't think having an 8th or 9th grader in calculus or physics is common in the US. I was allowed to skip ahead one year in science and there was a significant amount of students (15-25% of the grade) who were in the various advanced classes. So the bulk of students would finish 12th grade with pre-calculus and those on the advanced track would finish with calculus. In science those on the advanced track would take Chemistry II, physics, and advanced biology, while everyone else would take lab science and either biology or environmental biology - maybe chemistry or advanced biology.

Where did you go to school in the US that there were kids going 3-6 years ahead of their peers?

partdopy

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2020, 12:41:30 PM »
It seems like it’s getting more and more expensive to avoid sending your kids to school with a bunch of low income kids.  And more and more expensive for wealthy people to insulate their kids from the upwardly mobile middle class.
What a snarky, unnecessary remark.

Actually 100% necessary

Well let’s break down this snarky comment then.

The prejudice isnt really about “low income” is it? It’s about values that can (but do not always) go with household income, meaning parents who do not value the public school education their children receive.

This translates into a daily life of failing to get their children to school regularly, failing to work with their kids on homework and academic endeavors, feeding their kids junk or failing to feed them appropriately at all, failing to provide a secure home base, etc.

 This means the kids fail too and create chaos and lags in their classrooms when they DO show up to school.

This all reflects values.

So sure, if you (the generic you) want your children associating closely with people who share your values, that seems reasonable to me. Wealth plays into it but is not  the real issue.

Disparaging a set of values by incorrectly tying them to  dollars obscures the argument.

I dont have kids. If I did I would want them at a school with peers. You can define peers however you like, but I wouldnt use dollars as the metric.

But we can all probably make fun of the $40,000 school for 8 year olds because it's ridiculous and is only valued by those East Coast princely leaders of society. I wouldnt want my decidedly middle-class children achieving in that mileau, unless perhaps they were extraordinarily brilliant and got scholarships (wouldn't happen with my genes.). But even then, I would think twice abput exposing them to those values.

I don't understand your point with this post. You seem to be saying that public schools are filled with students whose families that don't value their education.  That's a lazy, but classic and wide spread belief held by those who would rather not take more than a superficial look at their intellectual "values".  There are many reasons why the largest, poorest, under performing school districts in the country are comprised of urban black students.  Hint, it's not because that population doesn't value education.

I did not read any snark in that comment.

I live in the midst of a large, Urban underperforming and expensive-per-pupil public school district.

I see daily evidence “ that population” doesn't value education. Doesn't value it to the point of placing it as a priority. This is how we carry out values, living them, taking action based on values.

But the entire school system here isnt full of bad (to use a simplistic word) students. Each school has a different personality and vibe depending on its students. Plenty of schools here would be ok for my family if I had kids. Plenty would not be ok. I am including here the charters since they all serve the same population.

As for diversity, I dont see how children in my city can avoid diversity.  That some parents wish to hold out their children from being social experiments just seems like good, protective parenting to me. Finding the best educational experience for your children is the responsible thing to do.

If ya’ll want to consider that elitist, you get to do that.

I went to public schools so have no first hand knowledge about private schools.

I went to a 'magnet program' in middle school that was purposefully placed in a school that has a primarily urban minority student population.  I assume the motive was to bring up grades/funding but I don't know.  I can say first hand that, outside of the magnet students, I saw approximately nobody who cared about education, had parents who did (I had many friends who were regular students), or got punished for failing grades.  I still remember the first and last 'C' I got to this day because my parents were extremely disappointed in me.

My wife is a minority from this type of community, and while her direct family (mother, father) care about education, nobody else in her family does.  The kids are constantly bringing home poor grades, getting teacher complaints, failing etc... and are treated no differently.  They are also not taught good examples of being an adult and having a regular job.

I definitely wouldn't want my kid in the same classrooms as them, and they are my family.

marty998

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2020, 01:35:48 PM »

Australia had the flattest schooling system. There is little variation up or down. Streaming here is discouraged, which means that the top students are brought down to the average level and the slow students struggle without being given remedial classes.

The lack of streaming means that tailored teaching is very difficult. In the U.S., for example, I was streamed to +4 grade years (and other, smarter children were streamed to +6 grades - the range was from -3 to +6). In Australia, I've never seen a kid get streamed more than 2-3 years ahead. Teachers won't allow it. If you're good at a subject, you're encouraged to get perfect marks rather than being encouraged to keep learning harder stuff until you fail and exhaust your ability.

Indeed, our VCE subjects like Chemistry, Biology, Psychology, History etc only have one tier. Besides mathematics and foreign languages, there are few subjects with multiple tiers for more advanced or less advanced students. This leads to the stultifying of those at the top of the class, and the neglect of those at the bottom.

Can relate to this. I was the top student in maths, science and business. The only "streaming" that occurred at my school was for maths starting from Year 8 - advanced, intermediate and standard. In year 12, they were kind enough to allow me to do the extension 2 course.

There just wasn't enough resources to deal with the high achievers. The special-ed department was incredibly well stocked however. You had the kids with learning difficulties and those needing extra assistance getting quite a bit of special attention. The kids at the other end of the spectrum were left to their own devices.

It changed a little bit in the years following - opportunity classes where the top students were pooled together. But very very rarely were kids accelerated when arguably they should have been.

You only get that in the selective school system, and only for prodigies who are many years ahead of their peers.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Private school fees surpass $40,000
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2020, 01:47:02 PM »

The lack of streaming means that tailored teaching is very difficult. In the U.S., for example, I was streamed to +4 grade years (and other, smarter children were streamed to +6 grades - the range was from -3 to +6). In Australia, I've never seen a kid get streamed more than 2-3 years ahead. Teachers won't allow it. If you're good at a subject, you're encouraged to get perfect marks rather than being encouraged to keep learning harder stuff until you fail and exhaust your ability.

Indeed, our VCE subjects like Chemistry, Biology, Psychology, History etc only have one tier. Besides mathematics and foreign languages, there are few subjects with multiple tiers for more advanced or less advanced students. This leads to the stultifying of those at the top of the class, and the neglect of those at the bottom.

My experience in school was maybe 1-2 years ahead at most, I don't think having an 8th or 9th grader in calculus or physics is common in the US. I was allowed to skip ahead one year in science and there was a significant amount of students (15-25% of the grade) who were in the various advanced classes. So the bulk of students would finish 12th grade with pre-calculus and those on the advanced track would finish with calculus. In science those on the advanced track would take Chemistry II, physics, and advanced biology, while everyone else would take lab science and either biology or environmental biology - maybe chemistry or advanced biology.

Where did you go to school in the US that there were kids going 3-6 years ahead of their peers?

I went to a Magnet high school and I did Pre-Calc in Year 9 and we had a bunch of elementary school kids in that class as well. But even the non-Magnet high schools in my county had an AP/Honors/Standard/Remedial system set-up for a lot of subjects.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 01:51:49 PM by Bloop Bloop »