Author Topic: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans  (Read 9882 times)

EricL

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Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« on: September 12, 2015, 09:33:25 AM »
So some do gooder group emailed me this petition and upon reading it almost fell out of my hammock.  Apparently, way back in the days of bell bottom trousers people took out student loans.  In addition to having disco, colleges were much cheaper and the sheepskin's economic benefits were more clearly defined.  And the Feds don't exactly charge crushing interest.  But after forty years these people still hadn't paid off their student loans.  And now enough of them got together to get said do gooders to put out a petition to the government not to garnish their Social Security to pay off the loans.

OK, I get it.  Life happens.  You graduated from an Ivy League college and celebrated by going out to see Jaws.  On the way back you get hit by a truck, go into a coma, and wake up in 2015 to enough medical and student loan debt to sink a western European nation.  But apparently between 150 to 700k others (depending on the sources) also have the same problem.  What's their excuse?

asiljoy

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2015, 10:57:28 AM »
And here I thought it was just those lazy millennials causing the student loan bubble :-S

forummm

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2015, 11:02:14 AM »
Hey man, <toke> education wants to be free.

Kaspian

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2015, 02:17:53 PM »
I think it's sort of fair, after all.  How many of those people used to chuckle they'd take their debts with them to the grave?  How many Caribbean cruises, pickup trucks, weddings, restaurant meals, luxury homes were enjoyed in the last 35 years while sitting on debt they owed to people of their own country?   They reaped the benefits of someone else's seeds.  Time to pay it back, buckos.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/24/news/economy/social-security-student-debt/index.html

CheapskateWife

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2015, 02:32:21 PM »
So I see from that article claims that Sen Warren attempted to propose a bill that would allow refinancing of these student loans to lower rates.  That seems fair to me, but I really have a hard time believeing that the majority of the folks impacted by the garnishment are cases like the poor Korean War vet who took out a student loan for his kid and wasn't able to pay it back. 

I'm a veteran so I can get away with saying this...just because you are a vet doesn't mean the govt has to protect you from your own bad decisions in perpetuity.  And correct me if I'm wrong, but that would put this gentleman in his 80's or 90's...he wasn't able to take care of the loan after all this time?  And why wouldn't the son have protected his father from this by helping to pay of the loan that was for his benefit? I admittedly have no heart, but to me, if you have a consumer debt like this (and someone benefited from the loan in the form of the education) you don't get to write it off. 


gimp

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2015, 03:37:45 PM »
Income-based repayment is a decently fair way of both getting the loans repaid, and not forcing people to pay more than they can afford.

Income-based repayment is a boon, a generosity given to those who need it.

Garnishing student loans is just ... income-based repayment to those who don't want to pay? Not sure. It's a generous solution.

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2015, 04:54:05 PM »
I'll never forget years ago, I was working at an accounting firm during tax season and a guy called that had not filed taxes in several years even though he was owed a refund. See, he "stopped going to school" so his loans "went into default" and the government had kept his refund the last time he filed, so he didn't file again. He had apparently reached some sort of settlement with them and wanted to file his back taxes.

I was like, "went into default"? You do know you were supposed to pay those, right?

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2015, 05:57:40 PM »
I think it's sort of fair, after all.  How many of those people used to chuckle they'd take their debts with them to the grave?  How many Caribbean cruises, pickup trucks, weddings, restaurant meals, luxury homes were enjoyed in the last 35 years while sitting on debt they owed to people of their own country?   They reaped the benefits of someone else's seeds.  Time to pay it back, buckos.


I like the way you think.

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2015, 02:09:04 AM »
We have a pretty fair way of doing repayments in Aus. Once you start earning a certain amount, the tax taken out of your pay increases to include a portion for student loan repayment. It starts off at around 5% for about $45k, and goes up in increments to about 8.5% for salaries over (I think) $80k. If you stop working or your pay drops below the threshold, nothing is taken out until you go back to earning over the threshold. No interest, just CPI increases at the end of the FY, and discharged in death. Currently if you earn money overseas you don't pay it, but that is likely to change.
I think we do need changes to stop people incurring additional debt late in life - ie doing degree for fun after retirement - but other than that it's a pretty good system. You can't choose not to pay your debt, but it's never going to crush you the way it does in the US. (yes it's a bit "nanny state" but hey, it works!)

Capsu78

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2015, 09:49:10 AM »
Props to the OP for using authentic references to the late 70's!  I remember being fresh out of college and a 27 yo "old timer" told me about how he was just ditching not only his student loan but also his child support payments from his first bad marriage.  "They won't come after me since I moved out of state"  he said as he lit up a doobie in his sweet Monte Carlo with a state of the art cassette deck.

Kaspian

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2015, 11:56:35 AM »
...cases like the poor Korean War vet who took out a student loan for his kid and wasn't able to pay it back. 

As I read the article, it seemed to me the slant was to go out and find people you could sympathize with (or be proud of) so you would think, "Wow, that's unfair!!"  Examples certainly weren't the average, I'm sure.  (And possibly completely invented.)  They also could have found a senior in a wheel chair that had recently been in a car accident, lost a limb, had medical bills, worked for charities their whole life, who's cat had just died and home burned down.  I hate that type of journalism--seeking out anomalies in what should be an objective story in order to get a sympathetic response from the audience to prove an egregious slant. 

EricL

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2015, 12:31:17 PM »

I'm a veteran so I can get away with saying this...just because you are a vet doesn't mean the govt has to protect you from your own bad decisions in perpetuity.  And correct me if I'm wrong, but that would put this gentleman in his 80's or 90's...he wasn't able to take care of the loan after all this time?  And why wouldn't the son have protected his father from this by helping to pay of the loan that was for his benefit? I admittedly have no heart, but to me, if you have a consumer debt like this (and someone benefited from the loan in the form of the education) you don't get to write it off.

+1
As a veteran I totally agree.

vivophoenix

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2015, 12:46:00 PM »
So some do gooder group emailed me this petition and upon reading it almost fell out of my hammock.  Apparently, way back in the days of bell bottom trousers people took out student loans.  In addition to having disco, colleges were much cheaper and the sheepskin's economic benefits were more clearly defined.  And the Feds don't exactly charge crushing interest.  But after forty years these people still hadn't paid off their student loans.  And now enough of them got together to get said do gooders to put out a petition to the government not to garnish their Social Security to pay off the loans.

OK, I get it.  Life happens.  You graduated from an Ivy League college and celebrated by going out to see Jaws.  On the way back you get hit by a truck, go into a coma, and wake up in 2015 to enough medical and student loan debt to sink a western European nation.  But apparently between 150 to 700k others (depending on the sources) also have the same problem.  What's their excuse?

i am curious: what will happen if we have a generation with garnished SS?

SS was implemented as a safety net for a reason.

i am willing to posit that the type of people with student loans in their 60/70's aren't the same group of people with large 401k/IRA balances and paid off homes and cars.

some times there's more to life than: i paid so you should pay too.

so they garnish their SS and then give them welfare or unemployment and goverment healthcase. its money taken from their paychecks being funneled right back to

Sofa King

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Money Mouse

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2015, 11:21:23 AM »
I've got a friend that's going to be in a world of hurt in another ~25 years (she just turned 38).  She borrowed what was probably around low six figures to get an Economics degree from a private university. Worked for a few years in the late 90's, got laid off right after 9/11 (the insurance company she worked took a huge hit when the towers fell, I guess they covered parts of the WTC), and after that never really recovered job wise - she temped for a while, then got a low-wage job at a major cell phone company before being laid off for absenteeism due to a chronic medical condition (she exceeded her FMLA time). She isn't sick enough to get SSDI but is too sick to work (according to her, and I more or less believe her) a regular job. So they are a one income family (no kids due to fertility issues), her husband is also very underemployed and I'm pretty sure also has student loan debt. I'm not sure but I suspect she and her husband now live with her parents (we only keep in touch minimally thru Facebook).

I doubt they've made student loan payments in years. With all the interest on top of interest, late fees, etc. their balances must be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even if they both landed decent jobs tomorrow, they'd never pay it all back. And I have no hopes for them getting decent jobs. She gets sick too frequently to hold a steady job and my impression of her husband is that he's well meaning and willing to work like a dog, but at the same time has no ambition to be anything other than a call center rep (the one thing he's got going for him is that he's bilingual, so he should always be able to find work).

So I do worry. SS is going to be the only income in retirement they are going to have, and it's going to get garnished for the student loan debt. On one hand, yeah they borrowed the money and they need to pay the piper at some point. On the other hand, I don't want to see them in what is likely going to be crushing poverty at the end of their lives. They aren't bad people, just insanely stupid people (when it comes to finances) who also had a run of bad luck. I don't want them let off the hook, but what else can be done?

Capsu78

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2015, 11:36:02 AM »
I've got a friend that's going to be in a world of hurt in another ~25 years (she just turned 38).  She borrowed what was probably around low six figures to get an Economics degree from a private university. Worked for a few years in the late 90's, got laid off right after 9/11 (the insurance company she worked took a huge hit when the towers fell, I guess they covered parts of the WTC), and after that never really recovered job wise - she temped for a while, then got a low-wage job at a major cell phone company before being laid off for absenteeism due to a chronic medical condition (she exceeded her FMLA time). She isn't sick enough to get SSDI but is too sick to work (according to her, and I more or less believe her) a regular job. So they are a one income family (no kids due to fertility issues), her husband is also very underemployed and I'm pretty sure also has student loan debt. I'm not sure but I suspect she and her husband now live with her parents (we only keep in touch minimally thru Facebook).

I doubt they've made student loan payments in years. With all the interest on top of interest, late fees, etc. their balances must be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even if they both landed decent jobs tomorrow, they'd never pay it all back. And I have no hopes for them getting decent jobs. She gets sick too frequently to hold a steady job and my impression of her husband is that he's well meaning and willing to work like a dog, but at the same time has no ambition to be anything other than a call center rep (the one thing he's got going for him is that he's bilingual, so he should always be able to find work).

So I do worry. SS is going to be the only income in retirement they are going to have, and it's going to get garnished for the student loan debt. On one hand, yeah they borrowed the money and they need to pay the piper at some point. On the other hand, I don't want to see them in what is likely going to be crushing poverty at the end of their lives. They aren't bad people, just insanely stupid people (when it comes to finances) who also had a run of bad luck. I don't want them let off the hook, but what else can be done?

I'd throw in that they don't sound like they have a lot of credits toward a decent SS calculation either so the garnishment will be against a small check amount.  The ironic aspect to me is she is a friggin' Econ grad!  Not to be judgemental toward your friends but just like "good luck" seems to favor hard work, bad luck seems to follow stupid people more that occasionally.

Money Mouse

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2015, 12:21:31 PM »
I've got a friend that's going to be in a world of hurt in another ~25 years (she just turned 38).  She borrowed what was probably around low six figures to get an Economics degree from a private university. Worked for a few years in the late 90's, got laid off right after 9/11 (the insurance company she worked took a huge hit when the towers fell, I guess they covered parts of the WTC), and after that never really recovered job wise - she temped for a while, then got a low-wage job at a major cell phone company before being laid off for absenteeism due to a chronic medical condition (she exceeded her FMLA time). She isn't sick enough to get SSDI but is too sick to work (according to her, and I more or less believe her) a regular job. So they are a one income family (no kids due to fertility issues), her husband is also very underemployed and I'm pretty sure also has student loan debt. I'm not sure but I suspect she and her husband now live with her parents (we only keep in touch minimally thru Facebook).

I doubt they've made student loan payments in years. With all the interest on top of interest, late fees, etc. their balances must be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even if they both landed decent jobs tomorrow, they'd never pay it all back. And I have no hopes for them getting decent jobs. She gets sick too frequently to hold a steady job and my impression of her husband is that he's well meaning and willing to work like a dog, but at the same time has no ambition to be anything other than a call center rep (the one thing he's got going for him is that he's bilingual, so he should always be able to find work).

So I do worry. SS is going to be the only income in retirement they are going to have, and it's going to get garnished for the student loan debt. On one hand, yeah they borrowed the money and they need to pay the piper at some point. On the other hand, I don't want to see them in what is likely going to be crushing poverty at the end of their lives. They aren't bad people, just insanely stupid people (when it comes to finances) who also had a run of bad luck. I don't want them let off the hook, but what else can be done?

I'd throw in that they don't sound like they have a lot of credits toward a decent SS calculation either so the garnishment will be against a small check amount.  The ironic aspect to me is she is a friggin' Econ grad!  Not to be judgemental toward your friends but just like "good luck" seems to favor hard work, bad luck seems to follow stupid people more that occasionally.


No worries, I have a hard time not being judgmental myself! I mean the health stuff she couldn't help but there were dozens of better choices both she and her husband could have made that would have made a H-U-G-E difference in where they are now. I could write a book! 

The most recent thing was she called me out of the blue yesterday (hadn't spoken to her in maybe a year?) and was asking me for advice on how to get cheap airline tickets (I'm a travel agent, though I do corporate rather than leisure - still all my friends and family call be for travel advice which I don't mind giving). They want to travel Thanksgiving week to visit the in-laws for the holiday.  She mentioned she found tickets for $500 per person and wanted to know if it was possible to get that down any. I wanted to scream at her "you don't have $1000 to go to Texas, you idiot!" but it would have made her cry and me feel like a jerk. I gave her the usual spiel about booking off-peak dates and being super flexible with times, routings, etc. and told her I had to run (which was true). 

They could easily just delay the trip a week or two and go in early December, celebrate a late Thanksgiving and early Christmas with the in-laws/siblings/cousins and spend less than half of that. But it is literally the type of thing that just never occurs to her.  If she calls me again before she books the trip I'll try to suggest that to her, I didn't think of it while she was on the phone with me.

At least there aren't any kids involved in this circus. I'd never in a million years wish infertility on anyone but I wonder if it's a blessing in disguise for these two, even though the desperately want children.

AlanStache

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2015, 01:00:54 PM »
Is a hard pickle of a problem. 

I do see the "you borrowed money and never replayed it side of things". 

I wonder how many of these people declared bankruptcy at some point but SL debt could not be wiped out then? 

SS is intended to be a safety net.

But then we need some sort of stick to force people to pay and garnishing SS might be the last-best-stick.

But then in terms of the total SS and student load pile of money is this worth it?  If this is a big stink about 0.000001% of SS payments it would not seem worth the bother except as a moral issue and a stick to get others to pay back what they owe. 

EngineerMum: What is done in Aus with those that take on loans then get married an never really work, ie the "Mrs degree"?  The debt is always there but never has to be paid or is it paid with family income?

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2015, 01:12:21 PM »
What about income tax refunds?  Does anyone know if they garnish those?  I don't get a refund, but I'd think that maybe many people do...perhaps people with college loans.

I have a friend whose ex-husband's income taxes were seized for back child support.

vivophoenix

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2015, 01:28:39 PM »
What about income tax refunds?  Does anyone know if they garnish those?  I don't get a refund, but I'd think that maybe many people do...perhaps people with college loans.

I have a friend whose ex-husband's income taxes were seized for back child support.

if you are remiss in federal student loan payments,  Income tax refunds are seized as well. however people who have loans for this long, are they qualified for forgiveness for payment?

 cause you are either in default, repayment or extended repayment.

CheapskateWife

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2015, 01:51:57 PM »
What about income tax refunds?  Does anyone know if they garnish those?  I don't get a refund, but I'd think that maybe many people do...perhaps people with college loans.

I have a friend whose ex-husband's income taxes were seized for back child support.

if you are remiss in federal student loan payments,  Income tax refunds are seized as well. however people who have loans for this long, are they qualified for forgiveness for payment?

 cause you are either in default, repayment or extended repayment.

Right, but being awarded such a status (forgiveness) requires action on the part of the debtor.  The underlying tone of these stories is that the debtor owed money, ignored it hoping it would go away, and then surprise surprise, you still owe the Federal Government.  In order to be forgiven, one must first ask :)

vivophoenix

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2015, 02:44:16 PM »
What about income tax refunds?  Does anyone know if they garnish those?  I don't get a refund, but I'd think that maybe many people do...perhaps people with college loans.

I have a friend whose ex-husband's income taxes were seized for back child support.

if you are remiss in federal student loan payments,  Income tax refunds are seized as well. however people who have loans for this long, are they qualified for forgiveness for payment?

 cause you are either in default, repayment or extended repayment.

Right, but being awarded such a status (forgiveness) requires action on the part of the debtor.  The underlying tone of these stories is that the debtor owed money, ignored it hoping it would go away, and then surprise surprise, you still owe the Federal Government.  In order to be forgiven, one must first ask :)

if you have been in default for that long, they usually garnish your paychecks. the circumstances under which you owe money after 40 years is unusual and i think that it is usually  because you have been making payments, but at some time: either in the beginning or in the end, you qualified for deferment and the interest continued to accrue resulting in a ballooning balance.

you can be making payments and still not be forgiven, or be actually making principal payments.  there are a lot of details missing and a lot of ignorance on these threads about how student loans work.

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2015, 04:05:18 PM »
One of the defaulters is this guy...

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/why-i-defaulted-on-my-student-loans.html?referrer=

Defaulting on your student loans is walking out on a restaurant check and leaving your waiter to buy your dinner out of his wages that will forever be lower than yours.  It's not like stealing a loaf of bread because you're starving, it's stealing simply because you think you can get away with it. And for a really long time, they do.  No school revokes the diploma the way a home can get forclosed on or a car gets repo'd. 

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2015, 05:34:51 PM »
it's stealing simply because you think you can get away with it. And for a really long time, they do.  No school revokes the diploma the way a home can get forclosed on or a car gets repo'd.

Yeah good point, you can potentially take out student loans, get a diploma, then never pay it back and you get to keep the diploma.  The government would never have it any other way, of course, because your potential earnings are higher with a diploma than without.  They have a better chance of collecting from you the higher your income is.

I like the Australian thing listed somewhere above where they basically just raise your income taxes the higher your taxable income is in order to satisfy the loan.  This, to me, makes the most sense.  Most people can't even manage to set aside $500, yet they may be paying $5000+ in income taxes because it's automatically withheld.  Perhaps the student loan system needs to go the same route of automatic withholdings that scale with federal income tax brackets.

EricL

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2015, 06:31:22 PM »

i am curious: what will happen if we have a generation with garnished SS?

SS was implemented as a safety net for a reason.

i am willing to posit that the type of people with student loans in their 60/70's aren't the same group of people with large 401k/IRA balances and paid off homes and cars.

some times there's more to life than: i paid so you should pay too.

so they garnish their SS and then give them welfare or unemployment and goverment healthcase. its

money taken from their paychecks being funneled right back to

It seems we lost some of that transmission. But the gist of your argument seems to be Social Security is a safety net for everybody and everybody's entitled to it. But not everybody is defaulting on their student loans.  Amazingly, some paid them off before the original Star Wars release (1978) or perhaps while The Clash broke up (1982).  Most paid up by around the OJ Simpson trial (1995). Some may have extended the pain to to the release of The Phantom Menace (1999) or God forbid, Hurricane Katrina (2005). 

And, per my over the top example, some people do live under a perpetual cloud and their situations should be addressed on a case-by-case basis .  But the rest of the debtors do not deserve any sympathy.  40 years is a long time.  If anything, I'm much more worried about the current generation paying off much larger student debts for diplomas with considerably less economic worth.

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2015, 09:13:59 PM »
I wouldn't worry too much.  This petition'll probably be as effective as all the others do-gooder groups try to circulate.  And by that, I mean no one with any authority will ever take it seriously.

vivophoenix

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2015, 08:01:01 AM »

i am curious: what will happen if we have a generation with garnished SS?

SS was implemented as a safety net for a reason.

i am willing to posit that the type of people with student loans in their 60/70's aren't the same group of people with large 401k/IRA balances and paid off homes and cars.

some times there's more to life than: i paid so you should pay too.

so they garnish their SS and then give them welfare or unemployment and goverment healthcase. its

money taken from their paychecks being funneled right back to

It seems we lost some of that transmission. But the gist of your argument seems to be Social Security is a safety net for everybody and everybody's entitled to it. But not everybody is defaulting on their student loans.  Amazingly, some paid them off before the original Star Wars release (1978) or perhaps while The Clash broke up (1982).  Most paid up by around the OJ Simpson trial (1995). Some may have extended the pain to to the release of The Phantom Menace (1999) or God forbid, Hurricane Katrina (2005). 

And, per my over the top example, some people do live under a perpetual cloud and their situations should be addressed on a case-by-case basis .  But the rest of the debtors do not deserve any sympathy.  40 years is a long time.  If anything, I'm much more worried about the current generation paying off much larger student debts for diplomas with considerably less economic worth.

yes my internet was crazed yesterday.


im not saying everyone should get off, but im saying for that group of people with their garnishment, is it worthwhile if we then have to provide them healthcare and welfare and special housing? cause i assume they werent great  savers if they allowed a 40 year old debt to linger


also not to make it okay, but why are you allowed to ignore a debt for 40 years at 7% interest and then have your only income meager gang raped when you're old, ailing and pretty much at your least valuable.

if as a country, we didnt  collected for 40 years and the balance is allowed to balloon, are we necessarily standing on the moral high ground of "collecting what you agreed to"?

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2015, 08:18:01 AM »
I am actually at least somewhat sympathetic to this cause.

Coming from a country where university is free and there were protests in the street when government wanted to implement a $500/yr tuition fee, I am still shocked at how expensive university is in the U.S.

University is a decision people make when they are 18 and have had no experience with the real world. This forum appears to be populated by people who had their sh** together at that age. Kudos to you. Maybe you even had parents or peers that provided useful, constructive advice. You knew what you wanted to do. I am currently in my mid-30s, good with money, and earning a comfortable professional income. But at age 18, or even age 23, I definitely did not have my sh** together. My parents did not provide useful or constructive advice. University was just something you did after high school. I had no idea what real work was like. I had no idea what opportunities there would be. The level of life planning and responsibility seen on this forum eluded me until age 28, when I found the gospel of budgeting and read "Your Money or Your Life" and "The Millionaire Next Door."

There are currently a lot of people that went to university because it is just something you did after high school and their careers did not pan out as planned. In my profession (law), a lot of young people graduate with six figures in debt and find contract document review gigs for $30,000 a year, with even that grunt work now being done by software. In that case, non-dischargeable debt means a life sentence for something you did in your early 20s with tacit support from the community.

Plus, a lot of people graduate into the profession and absolutely hate their jobs. In a profession that requires hustling for clients, it is difficult to fake it under those circumstances. The five-year attrition rate at the large firm where I started was over 90 percent. I sometimes have survivor's guilt for currently being in a good place professionally and still practising as a partner in a relatively large firm.

I am having genuine trouble being judgmental on this issue or considering it comical. Honestly, I read this thread and think "There but for the grace of the [okay, I am an atheist, so strike God reference] go I."

Did everybody here seriously think like a grown-up when going to university?

FatCat

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2015, 09:23:19 AM »
Did everybody here seriously think like a grown-up when going to university?


Plenty of my classmates in college just maxed out every loan opportunity they had and then spent it buying random consumer crap and partying. There were also plenty who didn't even though the same option was available to them. I don't believe that everyone has this same financial immaturity phase. I have always had a strong aversion to debt so the loans weren't tempting to me.

I do feel bad for people who made dumb decisions then later realized it was a dumb decision only after they are currently stuck with a huge problem they can't get rid of. But I don't really like saying that you can't fault someone for bad decisions (or credit someone for good decisions) because they were only 18 then. I don't feel like I was a clueless child at that age. But then I know some people who still behave like clueless children well into their 50s and 60s.

Left

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2015, 09:36:06 AM »
I just want forced labor camps for people that default/want to :( fine they don't want to pay? Then they have to pay it back through public service works at the minimum wage rate, see how long they are willing to work before they decide paying it back at a job of their choosing is better

This why no garrisments but they will have no time nor energy to enjoy it
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 09:38:15 AM by eyem »

Kaspian

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2015, 10:02:04 AM »
I just want forced labor camps for people that default/want to :( fine they don't want to pay? Then they have to pay it back through public service works at the minimum wage rate, see how long they are willing to work before they decide paying it back at a job of their choosing is better

This why no garrisments but they will have no time nor energy to enjoy it

Haha...  I always say that we'd live in a much different world if debtor's prisons still existed.  People would definitely think twice about signing up for a $50,000 loan.

EricL

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2015, 11:27:51 AM »
Kashmani,

Not everyone here had their shit together at 18.  Definitely not me - indeed I was close to 33 before I had a clue.  But 40 years is a long time and college was a lot cheaper back in the 1970s. It's nice that college is free in some countries  but having lived in some of those countries not everybody goes to college there. Those countries pretty much only allow kids with good grades in. Kids that woke up and realized education counted for something after years of underperforming have a harder time getting in.

Also, since college is government funded, the government gets to have a say in the curriculum. Not that this matters since a socialist government gets along well with socialist professors.  I think a lot of the do-gooders in the US are in for a rude shock if the government starts paying for everybody's college education.  All it takes is one Republican administration to mandate publicly funded education should have tangible economic returns and humanities, history, women's studies, African-American studies, etc. don't count. In our colleges where the bureaucrat outweigh the professors  and the students don't have much choice economically chances are most will just bend over and take it.

Trimatty471

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2015, 06:59:53 PM »
As someone who moved back home to her parent's house to payoff her loans and got beat up for it, I am not sympathetic.  I vote for garnishment or the Australian plan.

MgoSam

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2015, 09:07:32 AM »
I just want forced labor camps for people that default/want to :( fine they don't want to pay? Then they have to pay it back through public service works at the minimum wage rate, see how long they are willing to work before they decide paying it back at a job of their choosing is better

This why no garrisments but they will have no time nor energy to enjoy it

Haha...  I always say that we'd live in a much different world if debtor's prisons still existed.  People would definitely think twice about signing up for a $50,000 loan.

We do have debtor's prisons, only they are for the poor and under-educated people, mostly black, that get sent to jail because they are unable to pay off a minor offense.

MrsPete

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2015, 11:38:18 AM »
One of the defaulters is this guy...

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/why-i-defaulted-on-my-student-loans.html?referrer=

Defaulting on your student loans is walking out on a restaurant check and leaving your waiter to buy your dinner out of his wages that will forever be lower than yours.  It's not like stealing a loaf of bread because you're starving, it's stealing simply because you think you can get away with it. And for a really long time, they do.  No school revokes the diploma the way a home can get forclosed on or a car gets repo'd.
He whines that he's a deadbeat in the eyes of the law.  He's a deadbeat in my eyes too. 

He whines that he is being punished for coming from humble origins.  So did I.  But I chose to work my way through college (no, I didn't do it in four years, but I did it debt-free).  No sympathy from me. 

Making Cookies

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2015, 08:09:21 PM »
I just want forced labor camps for people that default/want to :( fine they don't want to pay? Then they have to pay it back through public service works at the minimum wage rate, see how long they are willing to work before they decide paying it back at a job of their choosing is better

This why no garrisments but they will have no time nor energy to enjoy it

Haha...  I always say that we'd live in a much different world if debtor's prisons still existed.  People would definitely think twice about signing up for a $50,000 loan.

We do have debtor's prisons, only they are for the poor and under-educated people, mostly black, that get sent to jail because they are unable to pay off a minor offense.

+1 - never gave this a thought until a college student I knew got a ticket and the non-payment fees began to pile up. That opened my eyes to how badly that could go for a person without a safety net. I think PBS Frontline did a story on this kind of thing.

EricL

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2015, 12:36:39 AM »
I just want forced labor camps for people that default/want to :( fine they don't want to pay? Then they have to pay it back through public service works at the minimum wage rate, see how long they are willing to work before they decide paying it back at a job of their choosing is better

This why no garrisments but they will have no time nor energy to enjoy it

Haha...  I always say that we'd live in a much different world if debtor's prisons still existed.  People would definitely think twice about signing up for a $50,000 loan.

We do have debtor's prisons, only they are for the poor and under-educated people, mostly black, that get sent to jail because they are unable to pay off a minor offense.

I got a lot more sympathy for those folks. I was poor enough once where a traffic ticket could nuke my whole budget. There's a lot of mental and emotional barriers people like that have that get in the way. Yeah, just not being stupid is a solution. It just never seems to work when that's just what people shout from the side lines. But college educated people - including minorities shouldn't be worrying about this.

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Re: Petition to Stop Government from Garnishing Student Loans
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2015, 12:36:50 PM »
Its tough to build a society that has a heart/conscience when there are people out there ready to game the system at every twist and turn. I have no idea what to do about it.

I don't necessarily think the student loan stories first posted were trying to game the system though.

My wife and I worked our backsides off to get where we are now. Multiple jobs, working 18+ hour days at times (school, job, practicums, studying, papers) and were pretty good parents on top of that too. We still occasionally have long days. I worked all weekend this past weekend b/c my job requires that occasionally. I'll get the time back.

When we do have a period of this kind of thing where my wife has to travel for work and then I need to work a weekend or evenings, etc. I think back to people I knew as a teen and young adult who were the stereotypical complainers. The gov't owes them this and that, the politicians are corrupt (they probably are. HEHE) and so on and so forth. But if I looked at their larger picture - they never really had jobs, they spent much of their time in "neutral" just idling through life metaphorically sitting on the couch smoking cigarettes and watching TV. A big weekend was if a few of them got together and cooked hamburgers and they drank a six pack of cheap beer while they told lies and cut each other with their wit.

My parents didn't do that and we were raised to work for what we wanted out of life. And we have.

When I hear of people unable to get ahead in life I think of those people from my past. How many of these folks who can't make ends meet never really make the kind of MMM effort to better their lives financially? Work a second job until the debt goes away or go to school slowly and pay for its costs out of pocket?

That's part of how my wife and I got through school - I was a not traditional student and paid out of pocket, plus the GI Bill, plus later my employer would pay for some of the expenses of taking classes useful for my job. Her schooling was somewhat out of pocket and somewhat paid by her employer. She did have a few loans that made it clear how fast and deep a financial hole could be dug but the inattentive. She had to ready herself for a coworker's retirement so she could advance into that career slot. Alas, the career slot evaporated and we had to wait several more years before she could advance in her career. Its all very good now.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 12:50:44 PM by Joe Average »