Author Topic: Pay $1500/year and I'll tell you how the Biblical scriptures told me to invest!  (Read 55237 times)

simonsez

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http://www.moneynews.com/MKTNews/Financial-bible-Hyman/2013/07/08/id/513894

The $1500 was a yearly amount I read on another article about this guy that is charged for Sean Hyman's full investing services/advice.

LalsConstant

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Ugh this infuriates me so much.  First I can read myself thank you.  Second of all if you truly believe the Bible has something to say why hide it for profit?  Third what utter tripe. That ad copy is so sensationalist and full of obvious lies.

I could rant on but my blood pressure ...

Jamesqf

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I dunno...  Considering how (in)accurate the Bible is on other things, like basic science, I think I'll pass :-)

AlmostIndependent

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I dunno...  Considering how (in)accurate the Bible is on other things, like basic science, I think I'll pass :-)

Forget the bible. Who the hell wants to take investing advice from a guy named hyman?

psu256

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I dunno...  Considering how (in)accurate the Bible is on other things, like basic science, I think I'll pass :-)

Forget the bible. Who the hell wants to take investing advice from a guy named hyman?

I dunno, Hyman Rickover was a pretty badass dude.

renbutler

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I dunno...  Considering how (in)accurate the Bible is on other things, like basic science, I think I'll pass :-)

Really? Are you not aware that the Bible is quite Mustachian? How about all those "other things" like "love your neighbor" and "thou shalt not kill?" Do you pass on that too just because the Bible is "inaccurate on science?"

Now, I wouldn't spend $1500 to hear what he has to say. That's not the point I'm making at all.

velocistar237

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Based on his Bible code, the guy predicted that Best Buy would drop to $11 then go up to $25. Whether or not the Bible is accurate, it's definitely not that precise.

Also, I think there's something in there about not defrauding...

Daley

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Not to defend the clown, but I had his marketing video running in the background for a while just to hear his sales pitch.

About the only truly Biblical portion of his pitch is built around the statement that the love of money is a sin (1 Timothy 6:10) instead of using money as a tool and the Parable of Talents from Matthew 25:14-30. Those major talking points distilled to "it's biblical to invest wisely" and "hoarding money in fear of losing it is still a sin because you're still loving money." What little remaining theology left was built around something that smacked lightly of prosperity doctrine (the whole health, wealth and happiness through Jesus Christ our L-rd shtick).

The rest of it boiled down to investing wisely, and to his credit, he did disclose his methods which are relatively sound and responsible. That part was basically, "research thoroughly", "don't emotionally invest", "only invest in companies with solid leadership, management and market presence", "buy into them like you're going to own 100% of the company", "don't follow trends but go against: buy during crashes, don't invest in hot stocks", "buy when the RSI is at or below 30", and "don't be afraid to take rationally sound chances."

His real pitch is to buy into his newsletter and use his investment notes and research guide for investing instead of doing the work yourself. I don't know if that's worth $1500 a year or not, but he is at least selling research instead of mystical mumbo jumbo. I don't approve of him using the wrapper and veneer of his faith to do so, because there's very little theology to what he actually appears to be selling... but this doesn't particularly surprise me coming from a man who stepped out of ministry and into high finance to begin with.

mpbaker22

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Really? Are you not aware that the Bible is quite Mustachian? How about all those "other things" like "love your neighbor" and "thou shalt not kill?" Do you pass on that too just because the Bible is "inaccurate on science?"

Now, I wouldn't spend $1500 to hear what he has to say. That's not the point I'm making at all.

Seems like a case where some idiot making stupid comments about the bible will give fodder for those who want to mock anything the bible says.

Jamesqf

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I dunno...  Considering how (in)accurate the Bible is on other things, like basic science, I think I'll pass :-)
Really? Are you not aware that the Bible is quite Mustachian? How about all those "other things" like "love your neighbor" and "thou shalt not kill?" Do you pass on that too just because the Bible is "inaccurate on science?"

Nope, I have other reasons too.  I would include much of Christian morality in those "other things".  While I like most of my neighbors, my feelings fall way short of love.  Nor do I have a blanket objection to killing, say in self-defense.  The difference is that those are opinions, while the science is a matter of facts, which can be demonstrated to be true or false. 

mpbaker22

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I dunno...  Considering how (in)accurate the Bible is on other things, like basic science, I think I'll pass :-)
Really? Are you not aware that the Bible is quite Mustachian? How about all those "other things" like "love your neighbor" and "thou shalt not kill?" Do you pass on that too just because the Bible is "inaccurate on science?"

Nope, I have other reasons too.  I would include much of Christian morality in those "other things".  While I like most of my neighbors, my feelings fall way short of love.  Nor do I have a blanket objection to killing, say in self-defense.  The difference is that those are opinions, while the science is a matter of facts, which can be demonstrated to be true or false.

Lucky for you love isn't a feeling and self-defense isn't contrary to the bible!

renbutler

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Nope, I have other reasons too.  I would include much of Christian morality in those "other things".  While I like most of my neighbors, my feelings fall way short of love.  Nor do I have a blanket objection to killing, say in self-defense.  The difference is that those are opinions, while the science is a matter of facts, which can be demonstrated to be true or false.

Well, I'm pretty sure you misunderstand what "love your neighbor" is all about.

Anyway, the point was that the Bible is quite Mustachian, and to dismiss this guy's financial teaching just because he says it's inspired by the Bible is just plain silly.

tomsang

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I am pretty sure that the bible doesn't say charge your neighbors $1,500 to interpret it into financial advice. Another charlatan using the bible to profit. Same story different scam.

renbutler

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I am pretty sure that the bible doesn't say charge your neighbors $1,500 to interpret it into financial advice. Another charlatan using the bible to profit. Same story different scam.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with making a living teaching lessons from the Bible, unless of course it's done immorally.

Only the buyer can judge whether the lessons are worth the money. It wouldn't be worth it to me, but it's not up to me or you whether it's worth it to everybody else.

tomsang

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Profiting off of the word of god has been a historical theme, but is probably not what he/she was thinking of when envisioning the enlightenment of the human race.

Considering the maxim that a sucker is born every minute and the knowledge that there is a large portion of the human race that don't question those that make themselves out to having a higher understanding of the bible or the word of god, makes for an opportunity to make some good coin.

Look at at L. Ron Hubbard, that story is truly entertaining. He was able to create a religion in a fairly educated world, just like so many other religions that were created by humans over the history of man.

The issue that I take offense about relates to taking advantage of the naive by using a higher power as a carrot or a stick to buy something that is not in their best interest.

It's like taking candy from a child.

simonsez

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There's absolutely nothing wrong with making a living teaching lessons from the Bible, unless of course it's done immorally.

Only the buyer can judge whether the lessons are worth the money. It wouldn't be worth it to me, but it's not up to me or you whether it's worth it to everybody else.
No, nothing wrong at all but it is strange to many people on this website I presume why someone would pay a good chunk of money* to hear about someone else's perspective of a history book as it pertains to finances when they could do it themselves for free, i.e. read the Bible's financially related passages, assuming the most popular book of all time is lying around somewhere of course?  I mean, the Bible??!! C'mon, the internet is chock full of free info on that (as well as other sites with free financial advice not necessarily related to the Bible).  Anyway, the point is only a sucker would buy financial products (especially at that big sticker price) hoping this religiously enlightened person would have that magic as it comes to investing that couldn't be found with a little research.  Plus, the article made it sound as if this guy's interpretation of the Bible gave him SPECIFIC information about market speculation, such as with Best Buy.

It wouldn't be worth it to most or all on this website, this is why it is posted here.

*-I'm talking pure financial reasoning as it relates to the Bible.  I don't want to get off topic with tithing or other monies that are earmarked for general or other religious purposes as that is beyond scope of this discussion.

EMP

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Look at at L. Ron Hubbard, that story is truly entertaining. He was able to create a religion in a fairly educated world, just like so many other religions that were created by humans over the history of man.

The issue that I take offense about relates to taking advantage of the naive by using a higher power as a carrot or a stick to buy something that is not in their best interest.

It's like taking candy from a child.

And there's my suggestion for the $50k jobs post...;)

GuitarStv

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Frankly I don't see this as being any more immoral or disturbing than the concept of a religious tithe.

I dunno...  Considering how (in)accurate the Bible is on other things, like basic science, I think I'll pass :-)

Really? Are you not aware that the Bible is quite Mustachian? How about all those "other things" like "love your neighbor" and "thou shalt not kill?" Do you pass on that too just because the Bible is "inaccurate on science?"

Lack of science isn't really the issue that many people find with the bible.  It's a religious text, not a physics book.  At best, you should be approaching it for spiritual and moral guidance.  The issue people have comes more from the fact that there's a relatively high proportion of confusing/bad stuff along with the good good messages.

- Like how bad kids should be executed (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
- Like how Jesus said that you can only be a disciple if you hate your father, mother, brothers, sisters, and yourself.  (Luke 14:26)
- Like how women should never be permitted authority over a man, and should be silent and submissive (Timothy 2:11-12)
- Like how an intact penis is required to get into heaven (Deuteronomy 23:1).
- Like a loving God telling someone to impregnate his dead brother's wife, then driving the man to kill himself when he doesn't (Genesis 38:9).
- Like God sending wild animals to rip children apart for mocking a bald guy (Kings 2:23-24).
- Like how if a woman drags her husband away from a fight by the balls, she clearly needs to have her hand cut off (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
- Like how the 2nd commandment is not to make any graven images . . . yet every Christian church has a big ole cross hanging somewhere.



Let's not cherry pick the rare good bit and claim that it redeems the rest of the book.

Insanity

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- Like how bad kids should be executed (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
- Like how Jesus said that you can only be a disciple if you hate your father, mother, brothers, sisters, and yourself.  (Luke 14:26)
- Like how women should never be permitted authority over a man, and should be silent and submissive (Timothy 2:11-12)
- Like how an intact penis is required to get into heaven (Deuteronomy 23:1).
- Like a loving God telling someone to impregnate his dead brother's wife, then driving the man to kill himself when he doesn't (Genesis 38:9).
- Like God sending wild animals to rip children apart for mocking a bald guy (Kings 2:23-24).
- Like how if a woman drags her husband away from a fight by the balls, she clearly needs to have her hand cut off (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
- Like how the 2nd commandment is not to make any graven images . . . yet every Christian church has a big ole cross hanging somewhere.

I am a firm believer that the religious text include a lot of hyperbole to attempt tell stories and make points.  No different than a lot of children stories do (really, a big bad wolf is going to attack little red robin hood by dressing up like her grandmother?).  Are there people who take it too literally?  Yes. But there are also people who take science too literally and refuse to admit we really don't know if there is a higher being or not.

Except #3 and #8.  Those are true ;-)

(that last part is a joke)

lisahi

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You can believe in God and still understand that the Bible is a series of stories written by men--most often men who lived years after the events they describe took place, if the events are based on real events and not simply morality plays meant to teach people moral lessons (the Bible is a mix of both). The Bible was written over the course of hundreds of years by many different people; books are included in some versions that are excluded in others. What goes in and what stays out was based on human agenda. For that reason, I see no problem in people following portions of the Bible while ignoring others. The world is not at all the same as it was when these stories were written.

GuitarStv

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You can believe in God and still understand that the Bible is a series of stories written by men--most often men who lived years after the events they describe took place, if the events are based on real events and not simply morality plays meant to teach people moral lessons (the Bible is a mix of both). The Bible was written over the course of hundreds of years by many different people; books are included in some versions that are excluded in others. What goes in and what stays out was based on human agenda. For that reason, I see no problem in people following portions of the Bible while ignoring others. The world is not at all the same as it was when these stories were written.

Well sure . . . but if we're going with that approach, you can do the same approach with virtually any long text.  Homer's Odyssey, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, Asimov's Foundation series, Herbert's Dune series.  If you pick the parts that seem to give moral guidance and ignore the parts that don't make any sense, most long stories can be used as life/moral guidance.  It's just funny that everyone's cool with 'It's in the Bible, so I believe/follow it' and so little to 'I read it in Harry Potter, so I know it's true'.

lisahi

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Well sure . . . but if we're going with that approach, you can do the same approach with virtually any long text.  Homer's Odyssey, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, Asimov's Foundation series, Herbert's Dune series.  If you pick the parts that seem to give moral guidance and ignore the parts that don't make any sense, most long stories can be used as life/moral guidance.  It's just funny that everyone's cool with 'It's in the Bible, so I believe/follow it' and so little to 'I read it in Harry Potter, so I know it's true'.

Some people do use Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter as almost "religious texts," but let's put that aside for a moment. The difference is the subject matter. The Bible is about God and Jesus and the tenets of God and Jesus. The Bible didn't "create" a religion. It's a book with stories (some based on historical happenings) that have meaning to religions that already existed. That's why it's sacred. It's the book for Christianity (and portions of it for other religions). The Bible can't prove or disprove a higher power because it came after the belief of a higher power. To go back to popular fiction, to be comparable, Lord of the Rings would be a far more legitimate sacred text to some Middle Earth religion if there was this grand belief in Middle Earth, its inhabitants and its stories before the book was written (or, more accurately, before The Hobbit was written since it came first).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 01:23:54 PM by lisahi »

simonsez

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...and the tenants of God and Jesus.
They would be badass landlords, they could fix anything instantly!

Jamesqf

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Lack of science isn't really the issue that many people find with the bible.  It's a religious text, not a physics book.

But it does contain many examples of physics, biology, math, and so on.  And most of those are wrong.

Quote
At best, you should be approaching it for spiritual and moral guidance.

Why?  Suppose somebody wants to sell me a map of the world.  I look at it, and find that its description of my local area is just plain wrong - they've got an ocean where there are mountains, a rain forest where there's desert...  After that, why would I ever think that what it has to say about places I don't know about has any connection to reality?

Quote
The issue people have comes more from the fact that there's a relatively high proportion of confusing/bad stuff along with the good good messages.

And even more so. 

LalsConstant

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Not to defend the clown...

Thanks for doing that.  See my issue with this he's trying to equate the Scripture with the investment advice.

To me this is like quoting Revelations 3:16 and then discussing how to program your thermostat properly and then claiming the two things are intertwined because they both mention temperature.

I think he's taking advantage of the fact people don't understand the difference between personal finance and investing and overmarketing his product to make it sound like more than it is.  That chaps my backside.

A certain amount of puffery in advertising, and claiming to work from Biblical principles is fine, but overexaggerating the link between two different subject areas is not fine.  His promotional materials need to better document his product.

Unrelated but sort of similar:

When I was a teenager there was this large local roofing contractor/company that used to put little Christian symbols and scripture references on their advertisements and business cards.

Now that doesn't bother me in the least.

But what got me mad was at the time I was selling and fulfilling commercial orders for building materials at my job, and I often met and dealt with the owner of the company.

They used to drink coffee and stand at the counter while we checked stock and such for them.  I was writing up an order when I heard this conversation.

"Mike your new business cards have so many religious symbols on them people are going to think you're a church."

"Well I don't actually believe any of that s--t but it's good for business when people think you do."

How is that not an outright lie that should outrage anyone?

This man was shifty in many other ways too (he constantly tried to rip off my employer for instance).

I think the experience soured me.  I try to avoid ever appearing like I'm using any religion to make something that would financially benefit me more appealing, not that I'm in a position to do that very often.

olivia

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...and the tenants of God and Jesus.
They would be badass landlords, they could fix anything instantly!

LOLOLOLOL

GuitarStv

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Well sure . . . but if we're going with that approach, you can do the same approach with virtually any long text.  Homer's Odyssey, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, Asimov's Foundation series, Herbert's Dune series.  If you pick the parts that seem to give moral guidance and ignore the parts that don't make any sense, most long stories can be used as life/moral guidance.  It's just funny that everyone's cool with 'It's in the Bible, so I believe/follow it' and so little to 'I read it in Harry Potter, so I know it's true'.

Some people do use Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter as almost "religious texts," but let's put that aside for a moment. The difference is the subject matter. The Bible is about God and Jesus and the tenants of God and Jesus. The Bible didn't "create" a religion. It's a book with stories (some based on historical happenings) that have meaning to religions that already existed. That's why it's sacred. It's the book for Christianity (and portions of it for other religions). The Bible can't prove or disprove a higher power because it came after the belief of a higher power. To go back to popular fiction, to be comparable, Lord of the Rings would be a far more legitimate sacred text to some Middle Earth religion if there was this grand belief in Middle Earth, its inhabitants and its stories before the book was written (or, more accurately, before The Hobbit was written since it came first).

Came after the belief of a higher power?  Yes . . . but not necessarily belief in a Christian God.  The subject matter of the bible being about God and Jesus and their 'tenants' should be of some debate . . .

The bible plagiarized many stories from other religions.  The Epic of Gilgamesh predates all versions of the bible, and contains an Adam/Eve story (Enkidu/Shamhat) and a Noah's flood story (Utnapishtim's flood in this case). . . but the Epic of Gilgamesh contains reference to many gods, quite different from the biblical one.  Dionysus was born of a virgin and placed in a manger immediately after birth . . . also rose from the dead and had the ability to turn water into wine.  Dionysus predates all mention of Christ by more than 1000 years though, and was a Greek god.

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 01:31:13 PM by GuitarStv »

GuitarStv

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But it does contain many examples of physics, biology, math, and so on.  And most of those are wrong.

Really?  Which parts of the bible show bad physics and math?

Why?  Suppose somebody wants to sell me a map of the world.  I look at it, and find that its description of my local area is just plain wrong - they've got an ocean where there are mountains, a rain forest where there's desert...  After that, why would I ever think that what it has to say about places I don't know about has any connection to reality?

Wrong or not, it's important to at least be aware of the map that millions around the world are following.

lisahi

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...and the tenants of God and Jesus.
They would be badass landlords, they could fix anything instantly!

Tenets. My only excuse is I stopped drinking caffeine.

Jamesqf

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Really?  Which parts of the bible show bad physics and math?

It would be easier to answer if you asked which don't.  But we can start with Genesis - the whole Creation thing - and finish with Revelations, where Heaven is depicted as a cube ~1500 miles on a side, made mostly of gold & marble, which nevertheless will manage to land on some part of the Earth without sinking deep into the crust - assuming, of course, that it somehow manages not to collapse from its own weight.  And that it was not previously destroyed by all those stars falling to Earth...

And then there are the amusing side issues, like the bit in Leviticus (11:13 and following) about bats being a kind of bird, and insects having four legs...

Wrong or not, it's important to at least be aware of the map that millions around the world are following.

Sure, and that's why I've actually read the Bible - and the Koran (and parts of the Hadith), Hindu & Buddhist writings, etc.

lisahi

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Came after the belief of a higher power?  Yes . . . but not necessarily belief in a Christian God.  The subject matter of the bible being about God and Jesus and their tenants should be of some debate . . .

The way the Christian Bible was ultimately arranged, and which books were added, was a purposeful act designed to teach about God and Jesus and to act as a guidebook to Christianity. But everything related to religion is up for debate. That's why it's not necessarily a good idea to strike up a conversation about religion at parties.


The bible plagiarized many stories from other religions.  The Epic of Gilgamesh predates all versions of the bible, and contains an Adam/Eve story (Enkidu/Shamhat) and a Noah's flood story (Utnapishtim's flood in this case). . . but the Epic of Gilgamesh contains reference to many gods, quite different from the biblical one.  Dionysus was born of a virgin and placed in a manger immediately after birth . . . also rose from the dead and had the ability to turn water into wine.  Dionysus predates all mention of Christ by more than 1000 years though, and was a Greek god.

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning.

I know all this. I took historical classes on the Christian Bible. In my earlier posts I talk about how part of the Bible is morality plays, which are generally the stories cribbed from polytheistic religions. I don't see how that faults my reasoning...

Spork

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...and the tenants of God and Jesus.
They would be badass landlords, they could fix anything instantly!

LOLOLOLOL

Dear sir:
My cold wine spigot has started dispensing water again.  Can you have Jesus, the maintenance guy, come by and fix it again?
Thanks,
Your tenant.

AlmostIndependent

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...and the tenants of God and Jesus.
They would be badass landlords, they could fix anything instantly!

LOLOLOLOL

Dear sir:
My cold wine spigot has started dispensing water again.  Can you have Jesus, the maintenance guy, come by and fix it again?
Thanks,
Your tenant.

LOL

mpbaker22

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It would be easier to answer if you asked which don't.  But we can start with Genesis - the whole Creation thing - and finish with Revelations, where Heaven is depicted as a cube ~1500 miles on a side, made mostly of gold & marble, which nevertheless will manage to land on some part of the Earth without sinking deep into the crust - assuming, of course, that it somehow manages not to collapse from its own weight.  And that it was not previously destroyed by all those stars falling to Earth...

And then there are the amusing side issues, like the bit in Leviticus (11:13 and following) about bats being a kind of bird, and insects having four legs...

Interesting.  What's wrong, in your mind, with "the whole creation thing"?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 02:47:34 PM by mpbaker22 »

DebtDerp

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Really?  Which parts of the bible show bad physics and math?

It would be easier to answer if you asked which don't.  But we can start with Genesis - the whole Creation thing - and finish with Revelations, where Heaven is depicted as a cube ~1500 miles on a side, made mostly of gold & marble, which nevertheless will manage to land on some part of the Earth without sinking deep into the crust - assuming, of course, that it somehow manages not to collapse from its own weight.  And that it was not previously destroyed by all those stars falling to Earth...

And then there are the amusing side issues, like the bit in Leviticus (11:13 and following) about bats being a kind of bird, and insects having four legs...

The Bible was never meant to be read literally, Galatians 4:24 states this literally ;). In fact Biblical Literalism is a recent phenomenon having taken root during the Reformation and really expanded following the industrial revolution. The Apostles and even Jesus didn’t take Hebrew Scripture literally. I’m sure Jonah would have written his story differently if he knew that in thousands of years people would believe that he literally meant that a person survived in the belly of a whale for three days. I always get a chuckle when Christians and Atheists try to discredit each other based on cherry-picked passages that they interpret literally. 

DoubleDown

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Regarding whether or not the Bible is true about what matters (it's not a science tome) -- there's the whole "trilemma" thing:

Jesus, despite being regarded as probably the most profound and influential person ever to walk the earth, must have actually been a lunatic deluded into thinking he was the son of God. And all the people that witnessed the miracles and wrote about them made all that stuff up, and were executed when they failed to disavow what they saw. Or Jesus just felt like lying to everybody that he was sent by God, and rather than give up on that lie, figured "go ahead and nail me to a cross and I'll hang there in torture until I'm dead." And then everyone that witnessed his return lied about that, too.

Or, Jesus, knowing that what he said was true, was willing to die rather than disavow it (according to plan). Same goes for the witnesses who died rather than disavow, and the other thousands of firsthand witnesses that didn't have to die for their belief, but spawned an entire world movement that lives today. Unfortunately they failed to post the videos to youtube for proof.

And all those hundreds of crazy stories written about things that would happen, before they actually happened, and then came true? All made up, no doubt.

So which is harder to believe?

Jamesqf

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Interesting.  What's wrong, in your mind, with "the whole creation thing"?

Again, it would be easier to answer if you asked "what's right?", because as far as I can tell there is absolutely nothing in the Genesis account that matches observed facts.  As for instance, light is created (and separated from darkness) on the first day, but light-emitting bodies (sun & stars) aren't created until the fourth day.  And how do you have days without a sun? 

Then we have plants created on the third day, before there's a sun to drive photosynthesis.  Stars are sprinkled around the "firmament" (and just try to fit that into any model of reality) so astrologers can use them for "signs".  Now would you care to explain how light from any star can get here in a few days, when the closest is some 4 light-years away.  (While our galaxy is ~100K light years in diameter, and the most distant object visible to the naked eye, the Andromeda Galaxy, is 2.5 million light years from here?)  And so on...

The Bible was never meant to be read literally, Galatians 4:24 states this literally ;).

Sorry, but that just doesn't wash.  Either it is the divinely-inspired Word of God, or it is a mere collection of tribal myths & tales, of no more import than say Greek or Norse myths.  If the former, then every bit of it should be true; if the latter, why in the world should we be expected to believe any part of it that isn't supported by other evidence?

As for Galatians, it only proves that the author was even then aware of the manifold errors and contradictions which it contained, and was attempting to convince his followers to ignore them.  Not much has changed...

olivia

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...and the tenants of God and Jesus.
They would be badass landlords, they could fix anything instantly!

LOLOLOLOL

Dear sir:
My cold wine spigot has started dispensing water again.  Can you have Jesus, the maintenance guy, come by and fix it again?
Thanks,
Your tenant.

LOL

A wine spigot would trump any and all rent/buy calculators.  I'd live there until I died.

Eric

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Regarding whether or not the Bible is true about what matters (it's not a science tome) -- there's the whole "trilemma" thing:

Jesus, despite being regarded as probably the most profound and influential person ever to walk the earth, must have actually been a lunatic deluded into thinking he was the son of God. And all the people that witnessed the miracles and wrote about them made all that stuff up, and were executed when they failed to disavow what they saw. Or Jesus just felt like lying to everybody that he was sent by God, and rather than give up on that lie, figured "go ahead and nail me to a cross and I'll hang there in torture until I'm dead." And then everyone that witnessed his return lied about that, too.

Or, Jesus, knowing that what he said was true, was willing to die rather than disavow it (according to plan). Same goes for the witnesses who died rather than disavow, and the other thousands of firsthand witnesses that didn't have to die for their belief, but spawned an entire world movement that lives today. Unfortunately they failed to post the videos to youtube for proof.

And all those hundreds of crazy stories written about things that would happen, before they actually happened, and then came true? All made up, no doubt.

So which is harder to believe?

I don't really care one way or another, but it's pretty easy for me to believe that people are willing to die for their beliefs.  It happens literally every day.

AlmostIndependent

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Regarding whether or not the Bible is true about what matters (it's not a science tome) -- there's the whole "trilemma" thing:

Jesus, despite being regarded as probably the most profound and influential person ever to walk the earth, must have actually been a lunatic deluded into thinking he was the son of God. And all the people that witnessed the miracles and wrote about them made all that stuff up, and were executed when they failed to disavow what they saw. Or Jesus just felt like lying to everybody that he was sent by God, and rather than give up on that lie, figured "go ahead and nail me to a cross and I'll hang there in torture until I'm dead." And then everyone that witnessed his return lied about that, too.

Or, Jesus, knowing that what he said was true, was willing to die rather than disavow it (according to plan). Same goes for the witnesses who died rather than disavow, and the other thousands of firsthand witnesses that didn't have to die for their belief, but spawned an entire world movement that lives today. Unfortunately they failed to post the videos to youtube for proof.

And all those hundreds of crazy stories written about things that would happen, before they actually happened, and then came true? All made up, no doubt.

So which is harder to believe?

I don't really care one way or another, but it's pretty easy for me to believe that people are willing to die for their beliefs.  It happens literally every day.

It's also really easy for me to believe that millions of people will follow/believe in that person. That happens every day as well.

Crash87

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Religion is ridiculous, but nobody can deny the huge impact the bible has had on human history.

Sure we have fanatics, but how many people are kinder to their fellow man because of a religious belief? It would be interesting to know whether its impact has done more harm than good or vice versa.

AlmostIndependent

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Religion is ridiculous, but nobody can deny the huge impact the bible has had on human history.

Sure we have fanatics, but how many people are kinder to their fellow man because of a religious belief? It would be interesting to know whether its impact has done more harm than good or vice versa.

I would be fascinated to find that out. I'm sure you could make a good argument either way.

DebtDerp

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The Bible was never meant to be read literally, Galatians 4:24 states this literally ;).

Sorry, but that just doesn't wash.  Either it is the divinely-inspired Word of God, or it is a mere collection of tribal myths & tales, of no more import than say Greek or Norse myths.  If the former, then every bit of it should be true; if the latter, why in the world should we be expected to believe any part of it that isn't supported by other evidence?

As for Galatians, it only proves that the author was even then aware of the manifold errors and contradictions which it contained, and was attempting to convince his followers to ignore them.  Not much has changed...

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are saying that if the Bible is indeed the Word of God then every single word of it must be literally true and if not then it is nothing more than a fairy tale unless scientifically proven. How simple minded! I’m sorry but it can’t be that black and white. Based on your understanding then the only thing I should learn from Mathew 5:39 is that I only need to physically turn the other cheek if someone physically slaps me on my right cheek, I can take absolutely no other meaning or interpretation of this verse.  I guess I don’t understand your perspective at all if you think that. The Bible is not meant to inform a person’s understanding of the physical world, it is meant to inform one’s relationship with God and Jesus Christ.  Can you see where I am coming from?

Anyways, it is always a fascinating conversation to have and I am always pleasantly surprised by some of the discussions that occur on a simple personal finance web forum.

AJ

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So which is harder to believe?

So, your argument is that because he was murdered, he must have been telling the truth. And because people believed him, he must not have been crazy. Couldn't the same two things be said of Osama bin Laden? The "Lord, lunatic, or liar" argument can be said of every martyr in history. That Jesus is the most famous of them does not mean he is the most correct.

GuitarStv

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I know all this. I took historical classes on the Christian Bible. In my earlier posts I talk about how part of the Bible is morality plays, which are generally the stories cribbed from polytheistic religions. I don't see how that faults my reasoning...


The difference is the subject matter. The Bible is about God and Jesus and the tenants of God and Jesus. The Bible didn't "create" a religion. It's a book with stories (some based on historical happenings) that have meaning to religions that already existed. That's why it's sacred. It's the book for Christianity (and portions of it for other religions).

I was just pointing out that the bible isn't really about God.  God has just been added to stories taken from many other sources. 

The tenents of God and Jesus were added to other stories after the fact.

The bible may not have created a religion from scratch . . . but it is a text that was carefully edited over many years to codify a loose belief structure into a more cohesive religion.  The practices of modern Christianity have little in common with the practices of the ancient Jews who started the religion.  Editing the bible created the religion as it is today.  Just as a few hundred years of editing the text of Dune could probably create a nice little religion about Shai-Hulud.  Or how Hubbard's Scientology took off. . .

lisahi

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I was just pointing out that the bible isn't really about God.  God has just been added to stories taken from many other sources. 

The tenets of God and Jesus were added to other stories after the fact.

The bible may not have created a religion from scratch . . . but it is a text that was carefully edited over many years to codify a loose belief structure into a more cohesive religion.  The practices of modern Christianity have little in common with the practices of the ancient Jews who started the religion.  Editing the bible created the religion as it is today.  Just as a few hundred years of editing the text of Dune could probably create a nice little religion about Shai-Hulud.  Or how Hubbard's Scientology took off. . .

The Bible is about God. I'm not sure how you can say--as a whole--the Christian Bible is not about God. The Christian God is pretty much Christianity. Well, him and a Dude named Jesus.

And yes, of course Christian practices evolved over the years. It's been millennia. Over that amount of time, it would be extraordinarily difficult for things to remain the same since the world hasn't remained the same. Christian practices were derived from Jewish practices; they were formalized and set into motion by the different sects of Christianity. Formalization isn't creation. And the basic concept of a Christian God (or, earlier, a Jewish God) existed before the Bible. Those same beliefs exist today.

Still don't get what your point is. My original point was that you can believe in God without believing everything in the Bible actually happened as stated, and that a lot of Christians understand the Bible to be stories (some based on historical events, some morality plays). I'm not sure how your argument cuts down mine in any way.

renbutler

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The Bible is about God. I'm not sure how you can say--as a whole--the Christian Bible is not about God. The Christian God is pretty much Christianity. Well, him and a Dude named Jesus.

Let's just say that people who try so hard to (unsuccessfully) discredit the Bible are as insufferable as the pseudo-Christians who try to twist the Bible to fit their own agenda.

On top of that, they're typically even more smug in their efforts.

GuitarStv

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The Bible is about God. I'm not sure how you can say--as a whole--the Christian Bible is not about God. The Christian God is pretty much Christianity. Well, him and a Dude named Jesus.

A pretty large part of the bible (including most of the stories about Jesus) can be directly traced to other stories that predate the bible.  I'm not sure how you can know this and still say that the stories in the bible are about God/Jesus.  That would be like me taking the Canterbury Tales, replacing every reference to 'Canterbury' with 'Toronto' and saying that it was a text about life in Canada.  It's not, despite the name change, it's still a bunch of stories about some pilgrims heading to Canterbury several hundred years ago.  Much as a large number of the stories in the bible are really about other gods, miracles, and figures that predate their collection into the book.


Still don't get what your point is. My original point was that you can believe in God without believing everything in the Bible actually happened as stated, and that a lot of Christians understand the Bible to be stories (some based on historical events, some morality plays). I'm not sure how your argument cuts down mine in any way.

I agree with you that taking everything said in the bible as literal truth is a nonsensical way of approaching it.  I agree with you that there are many bits that don't make any sense and must be ignored or reasoned away to take away the good bits.  My observation or point I guess is that this makes biblical guidance pretty negligible.  It's like looking at a Rorschach blot . . . the message that you get is the one you want to see or have already decided is right, and you discount the other messages on whim.


- Is the angel raping unnatural sex talked about in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah an indictment of being gay, or maybe just an indictment of rape?
- Should women always be silent and submissive, and never allowed to instruct a man, or should we try to reinterpret this as old societal norms that we've moved past?
- Is the church in violation of it's own commandment with the graven imagery of the cross that is displayed everywhere, or is it only graven images of other religions that are bad?
- Is it wrong to charge people for the secrets of investment from the bible if you're the only one who can see them, and they're willing to pay freely?


It's a bit of a 'choose-your-own-morals' adventure game where you end up following your own line of reasoning.  This is why when someone says:

Quote from: Renbutler
Are you not aware that the Bible is quite Mustachian? How about all those "other things" like "love your neighbor" and "thou shalt not kill?"

It's kinda funny . . . because they're reading the parts that they think are important (thou shalt not kill) and discarding the parts that they think aren't (like the part where it says that it's OK to have a disobedient child stoned to death by the village). 

Jamesqf

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are saying that if the Bible is indeed the Word of God then every single word of it must be literally true and if not then it is nothing more than a fairy tale unless scientifically proven. How simple minded!

Sure.  Now I admit that this is deliberately simplified, but the point holds true.  Either what's in the Bible - about God, physics, history, whatever - was "revealed", or it was made up.  Indeed, I have no reason beyond what's written in the Bible to believe that the Christian God even exists at all.  So if the Bible can't get the physics right, or much of anything that can actually be tested, why on Earth should I think that they're right about their God?

Quote
Based on your understanding then the only thing I should learn from Mathew 5:39 is that I only need to physically turn the other cheek if someone physically slaps me on my right cheek, I can take absolutely no other meaning or interpretation of this verse.

No, you should take whatever meaning you find in it, but you should take that meaning as coming from within you - that is, you use reason, experience, and your feelings to decide whether it's a good rule to follow - rather than as the dictate of some authority figure who'll send you to Hell if you don't obey it.

Quote
The Bible is not meant to inform a person’s understanding of the physical world, it is meant to inform one’s relationship with God and Jesus Christ.  Can you see where I am coming from?

All I can see there is an excuse.  You want to believe in your God and salvation through Jesus Christ, and don't want to face the fact that the only evidence you have for God & Jesus, or that there's anything in the whole sin/salvation idea, is the Bible itself.  After all, the Bible didn't actually need to have anything about the physical world in it, and it would have been trivally easy for an omnipotent deity to make sure that what did get in was right. But it is there, and it's wrong.

So back to the original question: if the Bible is wrong on so much that can actually be tested, why do you believe that it's a trustworthy guide to God?

PS: Apropos of this, an interesting column from the NYT on whether Zeus existed.  http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/did-zeus-exist/?_r=0
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 12:47:41 PM by Jamesqf »

DoubleDown

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So, your argument is that because he was murdered, he must have been telling the truth. And because people believed him, he must not have been crazy. Couldn't the same two things be said of Osama bin Laden? The "Lord, lunatic, or liar" argument can be said of every martyr in history. That Jesus is the most famous of them does not mean he is the most correct.

(Hi - Just picked your statement to reply to, although it's essentially the same as several others noted)

No, it's definitely not the same for every other martyr in history. No one else has credible eyewitness accounts of them returning from the dead. None of the others has credible eyewitness accounts of them performing numerous miracles. None of the others had the influence that Jesus did, by a long shot. Even his detractors recognized his impact and the wisdom and knowledge he possessed that rivaled lifelong religious scholars, even though he was a poor layperson -- perhaps a carpenter in popular lore -- without access to any formal education. Jesus' "fame" did not just happen for no reason -- it happened because of the inexplicable, miraculous things he was doing and saying that awed people and threatened the controlling powers.

The David Koresh's or Promise Keepers or other bizarre, self-proclaimed saviors are recognized as loony by all but a few deluded followers. There's nothing special about them, they don't do miracles, and they only have a veneer of charisma because they say things crazy or desperate people latch onto.

It's not just that Jesus died for his beliefs like your random, fanatical suicide bomber Islamist might do. He preached a gospel and performed miraculous acts that transformed the entire world. He was given the chance to renounce his claims of being the son of God, and he refused (at the penalty of torture and death). So did others who witnessed his acts. These were not people at war or a religious jihad on suicidal missions -- they were peaceful people who chose death (on this earth) over renouncing what they witnessed.

On the other hand, the way I heard the Bin Laden story and the others like him, after murdering a few thousand people, he hid like a coward until he was eventually found and shot to death.

So I would say all of you are right that "dying for one's beliefs" is not, in itself, enough to convince anyone. People die all the time for all kinds of ridiculous beliefs. Combined with everything else we have though -- a non-fanatic dying and backing up his claims, the historical record, the archaeological evidence, the fulfilled prophecies, the message delivered, the fact that we all want to know 'is there something else beyond this life on earth?', and the notion that all of creation either came from something or inexplicably just came to be -- well then, we seek an answer that plausibly explains all that.

Heck, even on just the creation question itself, I could honestly flip a coin as to which answer is more plausible, since on face value and with no explaining evidence they both could sound a bit outrageous: God created it all, or it just sprang up out of nothing for no reason whatsoever. But adding in all the other evidence and witnesses dying for their claim of seeing Jesus resurrected, the overwhelmingly more plausible answer seems pretty obvious to my science/engineering mind.