Author Topic: Parking Garage Nonsense  (Read 7455 times)

Spiffy

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 159
Parking Garage Nonsense
« on: January 10, 2017, 11:09:26 AM »
I work at an expensive private university and park in the parking garage attached to my building. Recently the parking rules have changed and what used to be faculty/staff only is now open to students. Wow have things changed. The cars these kids drive are crazy. Gigantic pick ups that don't even fit into the space and lots of very new and expensive luxury cars. And lets put aside the fact that these kids live only a few blocks from campus and could easily walk  but chose to buy a $400 parking permit every year. Recently I have noticed that the garage seemed louder than it used to and it hit me. Almost every car had a kid sitting in it looking at their phone with the car still running! And I live in Texas. It's not like they need to keep the heater running. But this morning I saw a new one. A girl was sleeping in her car while it was running! At first I thought maybe she fainted or something, but no. I stood there looking for a few minutes. She was just taking a nap. She had even reclined the seat for extra comfort. With the car running.

Just Joe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2762
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2017, 11:31:40 AM »
Went on a group camping trip one summer with a bunch of families. Many of the parents disappeared in the afternoon. Where were they? In the parking area, running the a/c listening to a ballgame... I guess a small portable radio would be too silly... I have a favorite portable radio about the size of an old video tape.

jinga nation

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Location: 'Murica's Johnson
  • Left, Right, Peddlin' Shite
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2017, 12:37:22 PM »
It is because vehicles are marketed as a second space, a private space, with tons of creature comforts.
And it is a private university, this is expected. I have seen this at my local private one too, I was there last night to see and listen to the work of the Poet Laureate of Florida.

Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2017, 12:46:19 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3849
  • Age: 28
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2017, 12:51:25 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.
I see this at work every day and it's so gross.  Sometimes it's far longer than 20 minutes too.  Sometimes when it's extra cold here (<0F), I'll give my car a little extra time for oil to circulate and to warm up before I take off.  You know, about 20 seconds.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Location: Running barefoot thru Idaho mountains
    • Black Sheep With Feet
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2017, 12:57:46 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.

Well.... I'm guilty of this, but in my opinion below 0 temps are deadly cold and I dress for the outside weather, ya know within reason, I don't wear long johns because I end up sweating to much at work(which could make it worse back outside). I also don't wear snow boots or snow pants.... But I wear at least 4 or 5 top layers, hat, gloves and wool sox.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 12:58:24 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.

Colossal waste of fuel?  Most cars will burn between 0.2 and 0.4 gallons per HOUR at idle.

Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2017, 12:58:45 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.
I see this at work every day and it's so gross.  Sometimes it's far longer than 20 minutes too.  Sometimes when it's extra cold here (<0F), I'll give my car a little extra time for oil to circulate and to warm up before I take off.  You know, about 20 seconds.

Yes, 30 seconds is plenty. Modern cars actually rev the engine for about 2 minutes automatically after they start before dropping to an idle. This is for efficiency reasons. No purpose to prestarting a car.

Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 01:01:21 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.

Colossal waste of fuel?  Most cars will burn between 0.2 and 0.4 gallons per HOUR at idle.

Let's see, 15 minutes idling before work, 15 minutes after work. 30 minutes of idling a day times 5 is 2.5 hours a week. That's still several dollars a week, plus wear and tear on the car.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 01:01:34 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.
I see this at work every day and it's so gross.  Sometimes it's far longer than 20 minutes too.  Sometimes when it's extra cold here (<0F), I'll give my car a little extra time for oil to circulate and to warm up before I take off.  You know, about 20 seconds.

Yes, 30 seconds is plenty. Modern cars actually rev the engine for about 2 minutes automatically after they start before dropping to an idle. This is for efficiency reasons. No purpose to prestarting a car.

Unless you want it warm for yourself.

slugline

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1165
  • Location: Houston, TX USA
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 01:02:39 PM »
What is the neighborhood like? And is the garage patrolled? I attended a not-really-cheap private university and back in the day the street parking was prime territory for auto theft and smash-and-grab crime. If I had the option of parking my car somewhere that at least had some kind of visible security deterrent, I would have seriously considered paying for it.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 01:03:38 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.

Colossal waste of fuel?  Most cars will burn between 0.2 and 0.4 gallons per HOUR at idle.

Let's see, 15 minutes idling before work, 15 minutes after work. 30 minutes of idling a day times 5 is 2.5 hours a week. That's still several dollars a week, plus wear and tear on the car.

2.5 x .3 x $3 = $2.25. 

The extra wear and tear is negligible. 

teadirt

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 01:29:57 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.
I see this at work every day and it's so gross.  Sometimes it's far longer than 20 minutes too.  Sometimes when it's extra cold here (<0F), I'll give my car a little extra time for oil to circulate and to warm up before I take off.  You know, about 20 seconds.

Yes, 30 seconds is plenty. Modern cars actually rev the engine for about 2 minutes automatically after they start before dropping to an idle. This is for efficiency reasons. No purpose to prestarting a car.

Unless you want it warm for yourself.

When it's really cold, below 0F, I have to let the defrost warm up for a few minutes or else the inside of my windshield will fog up from my breath! I've forgotten a few times when I'm in a hurry... Let me tell you, losing visibility while at speed is no fun.

That said, this usually takes 2-5 minutes. 20+ minutes is definitely, inexcusably wasteful!

honeybbq

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2017, 02:30:41 PM »
Let me guess, Rice?

gimp

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2348
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 03:48:03 PM »
Ford Crown Vics considered one hour of idling to be like 33 miles of wear. I'm sure it varies between cars, but idling a car for a half hour is not free in terms of wear and tear. Of course, it's less than driving said half hour, but it's not free.

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 04:07:57 PM »
Ford Crown Vics considered one hour of idling to be like 33 miles of wear. I'm sure it varies between cars, but idling a car for a half hour is not free in terms of wear and tear. Of course, it's less than driving said half hour, but it's not free.
Thanks Gimp, that's more than I would have thought, it implies that wear and tear is more than the cost of gasoline.

It makes sense though, I know lots of fleet vehicles that have running hours and odometers, once they hit a certain amount of hours the motor is shot, a vehicle with 50,000 miles can have a motor worse than one driven 300,000 miles. I'm sure fleet managers have the conversion at their finger tips for running hours to miles for motor wear.

The companies I know of need to run the motors as they won't start in the extreme cold otherwise. Its built into the operational cost of the company, just another cost of doing business in the northern oil fields.

The heavy machinery I drove was the same way, it was the running hours that mattered, not the distances. Idling was sometimes harder than operating due to the performance curve of the motor, it was assumed people were working and not idling so they designed them to be optimal while actually performing. 

Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2017, 04:20:55 PM »
Ford Crown Vics considered one hour of idling to be like 33 miles of wear. I'm sure it varies between cars, but idling a car for a half hour is not free in terms of wear and tear. Of course, it's less than driving said half hour, but it's not free.
Thanks Gimp, that's more than I would have thought, it implies that wear and tear is more than the cost of gasoline.

It makes sense though, I know lots of fleet vehicles that have running hours and odometers, once they hit a certain amount of hours the motor is shot, a vehicle with 50,000 miles can have a motor worse than one driven 300,000 miles. I'm sure fleet managers have the conversion at their finger tips for running hours to miles for motor wear.

The companies I know of need to run the motors as they won't start in the extreme cold otherwise. Its built into the operational cost of the company, just another cost of doing business in the northern oil fields.

The heavy machinery I drove was the same way, it was the running hours that mattered, not the distances. Idling was sometimes harder than operating due to the performance curve of the motor, it was assumed people were working and not idling so they designed them to be optimal while actually performing.

Out in North Dakota, Haliburton had an F-150 with 50 miles on it that was brought into the dealership. The oil was so dirty that it was sludge. Obviously, the engine was shot. It had been running on a well site for many, many hours. When the oil change light came on, people cancelled it because, hey, the odometer only had 50 miles. An extreme case but still.

Also, I don't buy the .2 to .5 gallon and hour idling numbers. I bet it is closer to .75 gallons. Either way, it seems like a waste of money to warm up your car for very long.

MilesTeg

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2017, 04:50:36 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.

Colossal waste of fuel?  Most cars will burn between 0.2 and 0.4 gallons per HOUR at idle.

Let's see, 15 minutes idling before work, 15 minutes after work. 30 minutes of idling a day times 5 is 2.5 hours a week. That's still several dollars a week, plus wear and tear on the car.

Meh, the vast majority of wear and tear happens in the first few seconds after a cold start before your the oil gets circulating. If you are doing proper maintenance, running a vehicle is not particular hard on it. It's why commuter vehicles can go for hundreds of thousands of miles whereas cars used for only short trips will only last a fraction of that.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2017, 05:29:20 PM »
Ford Crown Vics considered one hour of idling to be like 33 miles of wear. I'm sure it varies between cars, but idling a car for a half hour is not free in terms of wear and tear. Of course, it's less than driving said half hour, but it's not free.

33 miles has to be about the average traveled in 1 hour for a car so that would stand to reason.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2017, 05:30:54 PM »
Ford Crown Vics considered one hour of idling to be like 33 miles of wear. I'm sure it varies between cars, but idling a car for a half hour is not free in terms of wear and tear. Of course, it's less than driving said half hour, but it's not free.
Thanks Gimp, that's more than I would have thought, it implies that wear and tear is more than the cost of gasoline.

It makes sense though, I know lots of fleet vehicles that have running hours and odometers, once they hit a certain amount of hours the motor is shot, a vehicle with 50,000 miles can have a motor worse than one driven 300,000 miles. I'm sure fleet managers have the conversion at their finger tips for running hours to miles for motor wear.

The companies I know of need to run the motors as they won't start in the extreme cold otherwise. Its built into the operational cost of the company, just another cost of doing business in the northern oil fields.

The heavy machinery I drove was the same way, it was the running hours that mattered, not the distances. Idling was sometimes harder than operating due to the performance curve of the motor, it was assumed people were working and not idling so they designed them to be optimal while actually performing.

Out in North Dakota, Haliburton had an F-150 with 50 miles on it that was brought into the dealership. The oil was so dirty that it was sludge. Obviously, the engine was shot. It had been running on a well site for many, many hours. When the oil change light came on, people cancelled it because, hey, the odometer only had 50 miles. An extreme case but still.

Also, I don't buy the .2 to .5 gallon and hour idling numbers. I bet it is closer to .75 gallons. Either way, it seems like a waste of money to warm up your car for very long.

You can "not buy" it all you want, but until you provide a data point substantiated by something other than feelings it doesn't mean anything. The data point I provided was determined by people using a ScanGyage tool hooked up to the OBD-II port.

kimmarg

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 738
  • Location: Northern New England
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2017, 09:48:36 PM »
But this morning I saw a new one. A girl was sleeping in her car while it was running! At first I thought maybe she fainted or something, but no. I stood there looking for a few minutes. She was just taking a nap. She had even reclined the seat for extra comfort. With the car running.

I did the same thing earlier this week. Napping in the car with it on and the seat leaned back. Of course It was about 0F out and the baby had *finally* fallen asleep as we pulled into the parking lot. I decided to let them sleep and leaned the seat back to nap myself.  Lemme tell you 20min of idle cost is a small price to pay for a napping baby!

Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2017, 11:13:12 PM »
Ford Crown Vics considered one hour of idling to be like 33 miles of wear. I'm sure it varies between cars, but idling a car for a half hour is not free in terms of wear and tear. Of course, it's less than driving said half hour, but it's not free.
Thanks Gimp, that's more than I would have thought, it implies that wear and tear is more than the cost of gasoline.

It makes sense though, I know lots of fleet vehicles that have running hours and odometers, once they hit a certain amount of hours the motor is shot, a vehicle with 50,000 miles can have a motor worse than one driven 300,000 miles. I'm sure fleet managers have the conversion at their finger tips for running hours to miles for motor wear.

The companies I know of need to run the motors as they won't start in the extreme cold otherwise. Its built into the operational cost of the company, just another cost of doing business in the northern oil fields.

The heavy machinery I drove was the same way, it was the running hours that mattered, not the distances. Idling was sometimes harder than operating due to the performance curve of the motor, it was assumed people were working and not idling so they designed them to be optimal while actually performing.

Out in North Dakota, Haliburton had an F-150 with 50 miles on it that was brought into the dealership. The oil was so dirty that it was sludge. Obviously, the engine was shot. It had been running on a well site for many, many hours. When the oil change light came on, people cancelled it because, hey, the odometer only had 50 miles. An extreme case but still.

Also, I don't buy the .2 to .5 gallon and hour idling numbers. I bet it is closer to .75 gallons. Either way, it seems like a waste of money to warm up your car for very long.

You can "not buy" it all you want, but until you provide a data point substantiated by something other than feelings it doesn't mean anything. The data point I provided was determined by people using a ScanGyage tool hooked up to the OBD-II port.

I still disagree with you. A) anecdotally I see a reduced fuel efficiency in my wife's car when she warms it up B) fuel efficiency decreases as gas motors age, so I would be curious about exactly what cars they used to arrive at that data C) even of it is only $100 a year to warm your car up early, that's still a nice little grocery trip you miss (of course when gas prices rise, that's $175/year). D) extrapolate all the wasted fuel by idling cars across Europe and America. It's a significant waste and bad for the environment.

I know that cold is hell for some, like my dear wife. So a compromise is to warm the car for 5 minutes. Do that, and the interior will quickly heat up once you start driving.

Dicey

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9967
  • Age: 61
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 01:53:00 AM »
There have been a rash of car thefts in my area. Seems the bad guys & gals drive around looking for vapor clouds. Don't leave your car running in the driveway with the keys but not you in it.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5299
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 01:53:58 AM »
Ford Crown Vics considered one hour of idling to be like 33 miles of wear. I'm sure it varies between cars, but idling a car for a half hour is not free in terms of wear and tear. Of course, it's less than driving said half hour, but it's not free.
Thanks Gimp, that's more than I would have thought, it implies that wear and tear is more than the cost of gasoline.

It makes sense though, I know lots of fleet vehicles that have running hours and odometers, once they hit a certain amount of hours the motor is shot, a vehicle with 50,000 miles can have a motor worse than one driven 300,000 miles. I'm sure fleet managers have the conversion at their finger tips for running hours to miles for motor wear.

The companies I know of need to run the motors as they won't start in the extreme cold otherwise. Its built into the operational cost of the company, just another cost of doing business in the northern oil fields.

The heavy machinery I drove was the same way, it was the running hours that mattered, not the distances. Idling was sometimes harder than operating due to the performance curve of the motor, it was assumed people were working and not idling so they designed them to be optimal while actually performing.

Out in North Dakota, Haliburton had an F-150 with 50 miles on it that was brought into the dealership. The oil was so dirty that it was sludge. Obviously, the engine was shot. It had been running on a well site for many, many hours. When the oil change light came on, people cancelled it because, hey, the odometer only had 50 miles. An extreme case but still.

Also, I don't buy the .2 to .5 gallon and hour idling numbers. I bet it is closer to .75 gallons. Either way, it seems like a waste of money to warm up your car for very long.

You can "not buy" it all you want, but until you provide a data point substantiated by something other than feelings it doesn't mean anything. The data point I provided was determined by people using a ScanGyage tool hooked up to the OBD-II port.

I still disagree with you. A) anecdotally I see a reduced fuel efficiency in my wife's car when she warms it up B) fuel efficiency decreases as gas motors age, so I would be curious about exactly what cars they used to arrive at that data C) even of it is only $100 a year to warm your car up early, that's still a nice little grocery trip you miss (of course when gas prices rise, that's $175/year). D) extrapolate all the wasted fuel by idling cars across Europe and America. It's a significant waste and bad for the environment.

I know that cold is hell for some, like my dear wife. So a compromise is to warm the car for 5 minutes. Do that, and the interior will quickly heat up once you start driving.

Wait... do you see reduced fuel efficiency in the winter (when the car is warmed up) or across all seasons? There are reasons one would see reduced fuel efficiency in the winter that would not occur in the summer, regardless of engine operating temperature.

Secondly: that $100 a year is based on the $2 a week figured above... times the weeks in a year. So this calculation only holds true if one warms their car up for 15 minutes before every time they drive, all year, regardless of ambient air temperature, which seems unlikely (even anecdotally). More reasonably the car would only be warmed up that long during winter months, and then only during the coldest winter months, so 3-4 months a year in only certain latitudes of the planet, and could not be extrapolated across the numbers of cars/miles driven in all of Europe or America. This would lower the cost dramatically, both in terms of money spent and in terms of environmental impact.

This is why data is important and anecdotal evidence must be backed up by research.

Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 02:36:43 AM »
Ford Crown Vics considered one hour of idling to be like 33 miles of wear. I'm sure it varies between cars, but idling a car for a half hour is not free in terms of wear and tear. Of course, it's less than driving said half hour, but it's not free.
Thanks Gimp, that's more than I would have thought, it implies that wear and tear is more than the cost of gasoline.

It makes sense though, I know lots of fleet vehicles that have running hours and odometers, once they hit a certain amount of hours the motor is shot, a vehicle with 50,000 miles can have a motor worse than one driven 300,000 miles. I'm sure fleet managers have the conversion at their finger tips for running hours to miles for motor wear.

The companies I know of need to run the motors as they won't start in the extreme cold otherwise. Its built into the operational cost of the company, just another cost of doing business in the northern oil fields.

The heavy machinery I drove was the same way, it was the running hours that mattered, not the distances. Idling was sometimes harder than operating due to the performance curve of the motor, it was assumed people were working and not idling so they designed them to be optimal while actually performing.

Out in North Dakota, Haliburton had an F-150 with 50 miles on it that was brought into the dealership. The oil was so dirty that it was sludge. Obviously, the engine was shot. It had been running on a well site for many, many hours. When the oil change light came on, people cancelled it because, hey, the odometer only had 50 miles. An extreme case but still.

Also, I don't buy the .2 to .5 gallon and hour idling numbers. I bet it is closer to .75 gallons. Either way, it seems like a waste of money to warm up your car for very long.

You can "not buy" it all you want, but until you provide a data point substantiated by something other than feelings it doesn't mean anything. The data point I provided was determined by people using a ScanGyage tool hooked up to the OBD-II port.

I still disagree with you. A) anecdotally I see a reduced fuel efficiency in my wife's car when she warms it up B) fuel efficiency decreases as gas motors age, so I would be curious about exactly what cars they used to arrive at that data C) even of it is only $100 a year to warm your car up early, that's still a nice little grocery trip you miss (of course when gas prices rise, that's $175/year). D) extrapolate all the wasted fuel by idling cars across Europe and America. It's a significant waste and bad for the environment.

I know that cold is hell for some, like my dear wife. So a compromise is to warm the car for 5 minutes. Do that, and the interior will quickly heat up once you start driving.

Wait... do you see reduced fuel efficiency in the winter (when the car is warmed up) or across all seasons? There are reasons one would see reduced fuel efficiency in the winter that would not occur in the summer, regardless of engine operating temperature.

Secondly: that $100 a year is based on the $2 a week figured above... times the weeks in a year. So this calculation only holds true if one warms their car up for 15 minutes before every time they drive, all year, regardless of ambient air temperature, which seems unlikely (even anecdotally). More reasonably the car would only be warmed up that long during winter months, and then only during the coldest winter months, so 3-4 months a year in only certain latitudes of the planet, and could not be extrapolated across the numbers of cars/miles driven in all of Europe or America. This would lower the cost dramatically, both in terms of money spent and in terms of environmental impact.

This is why data is important and anecdotal evidence must be backed up by research.

There are whole public ad campaigns (link http://iturnitoff.com) devoted to not idling cars.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5299
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 02:43:08 AM »
There are whole public ad campaigns (link http://iturnitoff.com) devoted to not idling cars.

I'm not sure that this backs up the issues with the points I had raised, but thank you for sharing.

Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2017, 02:49:52 AM »
There are whole public ad campaigns (link http://iturnitoff.com) devoted to not idling cars.

I'm not sure that this backs up the issues with the points I had raised, but thank you for sharing.

It does speak to the points you are raising. These ad campaigns are aimed at preventing fuel waste and protecting the environment.

jinga nation

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Location: 'Murica's Johnson
  • Left, Right, Peddlin' Shite
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2017, 05:49:52 AM »
<foam alert>
Hoomans in mild/hot areas telling fellow hoomans in freezing areas to not idle and suck it up.
Hoomans in cold/freezing areas telling fellow hoomans in hot areas to stop using A/C and suck it up.
Can't y'all STFU and MYOFB?
</foam alert>
Yay, Chris22 is back!

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3210
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2017, 08:04:28 AM »
There are whole public ad campaigns (link http://iturnitoff.com) devoted to not idling cars.

I'm not sure that this backs up the issues with the points I had raised, but thank you for sharing.

It does speak to the points you are raising. These ad campaigns are aimed at preventing fuel waste and protecting the environment.

That's what we call "circular logic".

Look, if you want to argue in the macro that idling is wasteful, knock yourself out, it's probably true.

But on a personal level, pointing to someone who idles their car for 15 minutes in the morning before work to warm it up as some exploding volcano of waste is just stupid.  Even your own web site tells me that's going to waste $44 A YEAR* and that assumes I idle it every day, not just on the days when it's freezing cold out. 

You want to live by the numbers, you have to die by the numbers, and idling just isn't as wasteful as you guys desperately want it to be.


*4cyl, $3 gas, 15 minutes = $44/yr and 15 gallons of gas according to that site; if you do the math, 15 min * 365 days = 5,475 minutes / 60 min/hr = 91.25 hrs, 15 gallons/91.25hrs = .164 gallons per hour, which is actually a little less than I quoted above.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10651
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2017, 08:36:15 AM »
More reasonably the car would only be warmed up that long during winter months, and then only during the coldest winter months, so 3-4 months a year in only certain latitudes of the planet, and could not be extrapolated across the numbers of cars/miles driven in all of Europe or America. This would lower the cost dramatically, both in terms of money spent and in terms of environmental impact.

We are talking about "warming up" a car here, but I have seen people start their car ahead of time in the summer so the AC can get the car cooled off enough for their comfort.  Warming up a car is using heat from the engine, but air conditioning uses extra power (I think, any engineers care to comment?).  So odds are we are looking at 6-8 months of each year.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2017, 09:07:18 AM »
More reasonably the car would only be warmed up that long during winter months, and then only during the coldest winter months, so 3-4 months a year in only certain latitudes of the planet, and could not be extrapolated across the numbers of cars/miles driven in all of Europe or America. This would lower the cost dramatically, both in terms of money spent and in terms of environmental impact.

We are talking about "warming up" a car here, but I have seen people start their car ahead of time in the summer so the AC can get the car cooled off enough for their comfort.  Warming up a car is using heat from the engine, but air conditioning uses extra power (I think, any engineers care to comment?).  So odds are we are looking at 6-8 months of each year.

The A/C compressor is engine-driven, and increases drag (in the mechanical sense, not the aero sense), which leads to an increase in fuel burned compared to the same scenario minus the A/C.

Very generally, allowing the fluid temps to come up for a minute or two before pulling away is a good thing. More than that and you're just burning excess fuel to not be cold/hot.

paddedhat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2017, 09:38:31 AM »
I smiled when I saw "Texas" in the OP's post.  It's a fascinating country to visit. We recently spent a week in an RV resort, on the gulf coast. There were lots of transient tradesmen staying at the place. A lot of younger guys with their wives, typically childless. The crazy part is that many these guys were making serious money and trying hard to piss away as much as possible.  For many, the mandatory list to be in with the "cool kids" includes:

1. A $100K  "Toy hauler" fifth wheel type camper. These have a huge door that drops down to the rear and a modest garage space in there. This space is usually occupied by a pair of Harleys, or a $15K  off road UTV toy.
2.  A bro-dozer truck. This is important. It has to be a $50+ one ton, four door diesel to start. Then it gets $10-20K of useless shit bolted on, including a huge lift kit and oversized wheels.
3. Well, we can't forget the little ladies, so she needs a new Tahoe. Nothing fancy, $45-50K should do it.

It was a trip. Guys in their twenties, making six figures a year, and  paying thousands a month in toy payments. Now there was a bit of evidence of Mustache thinking to, as there was another group of, mostly older guys, who drove older rigs (still needs to be a pickup, because Texas) and living in modest, paid off RVs. Unfortunately, I got the impression that for more than a few of these guys, it wasn't their first rodeo, they had been through a bust or two before, and aren't frugal by choice. 

So when it comes to a garage full of student owned bro-dozers and high dollar imports, when you add the word "Texas" it all makes sense. How could a  patriotic Texan parent possibly think of sending young Hunter or Victoria off to school without adequate transportation? That would be down right un-American.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 09:52:34 AM by paddedhat »

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2017, 12:30:08 PM »
<foam alert>
Hoomans in mild/hot areas telling fellow hoomans in freezing areas to not idle and suck it up.
Hoomans in cold/freezing areas telling fellow hoomans in hot areas to stop using A/C and suck it up.
Can't y'all STFU and MYOFB?
</foam alert>
Yay, Chris22 is back!
I'm more of the camp of telling humans who think they live in cold areas to suck it up, my local temperature ranges from -40 to +40 annually (as recorded by Environment Canada). I idle less than what's describe and live in a cold area, I spent under 5 minutes idling this morning at -30 C (-22 F) to get the ice melted from the inside of the windshield. I have trouble scraping the insides, the outsides are easy enough. Usually I just turn the car on, scrape windows and go.

Perhaps Chris is just sensitive to cold more than some? I grew up in a cold climate and spent much time outside, its not for everyone. It could be medical, the lady across the street has poor blood circulation so she tends to idle longer (circulation decreases with age and other reasons). One of the other neighbours tends to not bother with a winter coat and instead idles longer, some people idle more so they can be stylish. However for the general population on my street the able bodied tend to do the same as me, idle long enough to get ice off the windows, with the assist of scraping, to be legal while driving. It always looks weird to see a 25 year old idle for 30 minutes, its abnormal behavior.

The idle campaigns are partly fuel efficiency, in my area its mostly health concerns. Widespread idling is extremely hard on those with respiratory conditions, that's why our hospital has bans on idling. Its more about being a considerate human being than money, some of us care about others and some don't. For those that don't there's a city bylaw to enforce the idling ban, sadly some people are self centered and need tickets to encourage behavior that doesn't harm others.

CmFtns

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 583
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Melbourne, Fl
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2017, 12:38:37 PM »
this reminds me of a car commercial I sometimes see whenever I visit people who have cable TV running in the background.

I forget which brand but some women pull up to the curb in their mini  SUV to some store with a door about 10 feet away and it is raining and they say something like:
"what do we do it's raining?!"
and they look around and cue panorama of inside of car in all its luxury beauty and then they say something like:
"we will wait it out!!"

and they recline the seats turn up the satellite radio blah blah blah... anyway car commercials are dumb

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3643
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2017, 12:47:25 PM »
A lot of younger guys with their wives, typically childless. The crazy part is that many these guys were making serious money and trying hard to piss away as much as possible. 

Hopefully that's me when I'm married...all except the part of trying to piss away my money. Instead I would rather shave a year or two off my FIRE date.

JAYSLOL

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1140
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2017, 08:50:24 PM »
I'm on both sides of the warming the car up fence, I wouldn't let my car idle for just the luxury of not being cold while i drive for the first few minutes, but i'm not going to skip warming up my car if there is any frost on the inside of the windows.  I can't drive down the highway if i can't see out the window, and i'm not going to try just to save a few cents worth of gas.  Before i sold my old camry, i didn't have insurance on it, but still wanted to run it every week or 2 to keep it in good running shape, so i would idle it in the driveway until it warmed up and then turn it off.  One time i got distracted with other stuff going on and forgot i had left the car running, after 4 or 5 hours i went to bed, woke up the next morning more than 12 hours after i had originally started the car and found it was still running in the driveway and the gas needle had hardly moved, lol.  Sorry planet Earth. 

ltt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 739
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2017, 04:15:43 AM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.

Yes, this is done because there is frost or snow on the windshield which needs to be defrosted, plus it's bitter cold outside.  Who wants to get into a freezing car also?  Not me. :) 

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Location: Emmaus, PA
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2017, 06:14:51 AM »
If I give my car 15 minutes notice and it's plugged in, I can have it warm up using grid power. That means skipping turning on the gas engine entirely for defroster needs.

Debts_of_Despair

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: NY
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 04:27:18 PM »
The idling thing is out of control.  It's now a competition at the end of each day at work to see who can start their car remotely first. 10-15 minutes on days when it's not even that cold. For how much the feds regulate emissions, it almost a wonder that remote starters were ever allowed.

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3319
  • Location: UK
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2017, 05:44:04 PM »
Protip for those with ice inside their windscreens: A/C blows DRY air in; turn your A/C on in the winter to dehumidify your car (with the heat on, you will get warm/hot DRY air that will dehumidify your car).

But yeah, don't idle. Just wait til the rev counter drops the ~200 rpms down to 'normal'. The car will heat up MUCH FASTER if you drive it.

Just Joe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2762
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2017, 10:10:19 AM »
If I give my car 15 minutes notice and it's plugged in, I can have it warm up using grid power. That means skipping turning on the gas engine entirely for defroster needs.

Built in block heater or aftermarket add-on?

RoostKing

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2017, 04:46:36 PM »
In very cold climates I also think its somewhat of a safety thing to have at least some warmth in the cab of the car. I dont want to hit the highway shivering. And no way would I just start and drive off in any car. I want fluids circulating and some heat in the engine before I take off. Ill trade off the minimal fuel loss and wear and tear.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5299
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2017, 10:15:02 PM »
Sorta related. People here will start their cars 20 minutes early in the winter so that the car is perfectly warm once they get in. What a colossal waste of fuel and it isn't even necessary for the health of the car.

Yes, this is done because there is frost or snow on the windshield which needs to be defrosted, plus it's bitter cold outside.  Who wants to get into a freezing car also?  Not me. :)

It does depend on if the car was parked inside or outside. Long ago when I lived in the frozen north, it was fine to hop in the car that had been parked inside and take off down the street at 40 below zero. If it had been parked outside, even after scraping ice, I found my breath still fogged the windows up so badly that I couldn't see. Not worth an accident to save .165 gallons of gas.

mwulff

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 274
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2017, 12:19:16 AM »
If I give my car 15 minutes notice and it's plugged in, I can have it warm up using grid power. That means skipping turning on the gas engine entirely for defroster needs.

Built in block heater or aftermarket add-on?

More likely a hybrid car like the Volt. But the same applies to all EV's as well. If it's plugged in or you have enough battery: Tap the phone and 15 minutes later all ice is gone and the car is toasty.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Location: Emmaus, PA
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2017, 12:27:28 AM »
If I give my car 15 minutes notice and it's plugged in, I can have it warm up using grid power. That means skipping turning on the gas engine entirely for defroster needs.

Built in block heater or aftermarket add-on?

More likely a hybrid car like the Volt. But the same applies to all EV's as well. If it's plugged in or you have enough battery: Tap the phone and 15 minutes later all ice is gone and the car is toasty.

Right. C-Max Energi.

Syonyk

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3756
    • Syonyk's Project Blog
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2017, 08:13:59 PM »
Yes, 30 seconds is plenty. Modern cars actually rev the engine for about 2 minutes automatically after they start before dropping to an idle. This is for efficiency reasons. No purpose to prestarting a car.

That depends heavily on the vehicle.  A diesel, in particular, can be awful at warming up, because they're so efficient at idle.

If it's cold out, I'll plug my truck in, and usually give it 5-10 minutes idling to try and get some heat in the engine before I move off (uphill driveway, onto a 55mph rural road, and I don't like flogging cold engines).

If I give my car 15 minutes notice and it's plugged in, I can have it warm up using grid power. That means skipping turning on the gas engine entirely for defroster needs.

Built in block heater or aftermarket add-on?

"Smug EV owner with a fancy smartphone and App(TM) controlled car," most likely.

You can get magnetic block heaters for most oil pans - good ideas in cold climates.

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3643
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2017, 08:49:43 PM »
Welcome back Chris22

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Location: Emmaus, PA
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2017, 04:03:04 AM »
Yes, 30 seconds is plenty. Modern cars actually rev the engine for about 2 minutes automatically after they start before dropping to an idle. This is for efficiency reasons. No purpose to prestarting a car.

That depends heavily on the vehicle.  A diesel, in particular, can be awful at warming up, because they're so efficient at idle.

If it's cold out, I'll plug my truck in, and usually give it 5-10 minutes idling to try and get some heat in the engine before I move off (uphill driveway, onto a 55mph rural road, and I don't like flogging cold engines).

If I give my car 15 minutes notice and it's plugged in, I can have it warm up using grid power. That means skipping turning on the gas engine entirely for defroster needs.

Built in block heater or aftermarket add-on?

"Smug EV owner with a fancy smartphone and App(TM) controlled car," most likely.

You can get magnetic block heaters for most oil pans - good ideas in cold climates.

Hey, at least I bought it used, and the smartphone is a hand-me-down.

ambimammular

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Indiana
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2017, 05:28:19 PM »

A $100K  "Toy hauler" fifth wheel type camper. These have a huge door that drops down to the rear and a modest garage space in there. This space is usually occupied by a pair of Harleys, or a $15K  off road UTV toy.


My brother bought one of these! It was a "tax-write-off" as he uses it in the back fields of ND so he can stay on his job sites and work on equipment indoors. I hadn't even heard of such a thing. I didn't ask him about the price tag, because I knew it couldn't be good. Man, and I thought I was bringing him over to the mustachian side of things... :( 

Syonyk

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3756
    • Syonyk's Project Blog
Re: Parking Garage Nonsense
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2017, 06:47:24 PM »
Does he have a fixed residence as well, or live in that?

If he's living in it, that's a quite cheap way of living out by the oil fields.