Author Topic: Panera CEO and Food Stamps  (Read 36977 times)

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #100 on: September 24, 2013, 12:19:59 PM »
In any case, $12.95(6.95-8.95 from Peapod or free for seniors from many stores) is not a lot of money if you spend it once or twice a month, and the alternative is buying fast food and over-inflated gas station - heck, you'd save a significant amount of money, plus be eating way better.

$14-$26 a month, you're suggesting, for people whose total food budget is $4.50/day? Let me do the math: 4.50 x 7 = $31.50 a week?!

They should spend as much as 6 days' worth of their food budget just having their food delivered?!

Think about it.

I love math. +1

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #101 on: September 24, 2013, 12:23:14 PM »
Throughout this thread, runs the assumption that food stamps are used only by "poor" people who are chronically down and out and live off SNAP perpetually.

The reality is that the typical SNAP recipient depends on the aid for less than 2 years.   Last year, I read a study that found that 64% of all Americans depend on some form of aid at some point in their life:  unemployment, Medicaid, food stamps, welfare.

Sometimes people hit a rough patch in life and need help to get past it and rebuild.   I'm one such person and I'm grateful for the help that kept my life from falling completely to pieces so that I retained a foundation on which to rebuild.

Hush now, TrulyStashin, that kind of talk upsets the petite bourgeoisie! The little darlings need to protect their illusions of lifelong ghetto welfare queens and mooching bums too lazy for work as overwhelming the ranks of those on assistance. Otherwise, they might have trouble sleeping at night while they declare social programs worthless, defend the act of gutting and abolishing those programs over any sort of progressive reform, and turn a blind eye to their own lack of charity in their lives. We don't want them to lose any sleep now, do we? After all, it takes a lot of work to preserve a fantasy world.

Don't worry guys, TrulyStashin' just misquoted those statistics. It's actually only 0.64% of the welfare recipients in this country. You can go back to sleep now.

This thread is almost as appalling as the homeless in the forest thread. I had avoided reading it suspecting as much, and boy was I not disappointed. Let them eat cake, indeed! I can't imagine the reactions this thing must cause with some of the new readers.

Unsurprising, there's a lot of familiar names in both threads (myself included, now). This raises the question of why some of you people are actually here in the first place? "Mustachianism" isn't about achieving ends to selfish means, it's about working towards making the world a better place for everybody, including your own family. There's an overwhelming current of social responsibility and a desire to making the world a better place to MMM's core messages when he's not talking about gearhead topics, yet there's an entire subset of this community that now ignores that thread or is quite possibly wholly oblivious to it. The opinions expressed by these individuals sadly embodies the very ugly stereotype of elitist WASP snobbery and self-entitlement that feeds class warfare and turns off the less fortunate to the idea of striving towards financial security in the first place. These are clearly not compatible schools of thought.

I don't disagree that people are entitled to their opinions, and should have the right to express them... but there's also a responsibility to the community that must not be ignored when you participate within a group or collective of others. Of course, I don't expect people to understand that when they think poor people are just being lazy and financially irresponsible when they choose to pick up a can of pork and beans with a loaf of white bread down at the corner 7-11 over walking the three miles round trip to a larger grocery store. We're all in this together, which means we can just as easily perpetuate and create the very societal ills that upset us if we're not careful and responsible with our own actions.

why all this judgement of "poor people". 

Doesn't matter whether we are rich or poor at the moment, the truth is we can try to control our circumstances, but there is every chance we're going to get hit by an unexpected event. Until we walk a mile in the shoes of the people we judge we really don't know the truth.

I suggest time is better spent volunteering rather than judging.

QFT

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. Treat others as you wish to be treated. These are not just tropes and cliché phrases - they're a succinct philosophy and way of gently walking through life, and it's a life of joy and wonder that no amount of money could ever purchase or secure.

+4

Great response. Thank you.

Jamesqf

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #102 on: September 24, 2013, 12:40:05 PM »
Hush now, TrulyStashin, that kind of talk upsets the petite bourgeoisie! The little darlings need to protect their illusions...

Maybe I'm getting too personal here, but I have to wonder just how much first-hand experience you have, or whether you're just maintaining your own illusions.

Quote
Unsurprising, there's a lot of familiar names in both threads (myself included, now). This raises the question of why some of you people are actually here in the first place? "Mustachianism" isn't about achieving ends to selfish means, it's about working towards making the world a better place for everybody, including your own family. There's an overwhelming current of social responsibility and a desire to making the world a better place to MMM's core messages...

Granted that that's the case, surely it is more important to look at what actually works (and what doesn't), than to keep on doing something that some of us wish would work, just because it allows us to feel good about ourselves, and SO morally superior to the petite bourgeoisie, a good number of whom have actually escaped poverty.

TrulyStashin

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #103 on: September 24, 2013, 03:28:54 PM »
When it comes to ending poverty, what works?

This works http://www.healthpolicysolutions.org/2012/10/17/public-housing-project-a-national-model-for-supporting-health/

Education.  Support.  Building community.  Training in new skills.  Creating a vibrant neighborhood of mixed income levels. 

We know how to do it, but it is so much easier to just shame people who are already vulnerable.

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #104 on: September 24, 2013, 03:43:49 PM »
When it comes to ending poverty, what works?

This works http://www.healthpolicysolutions.org/2012/10/17/public-housing-project-a-national-model-for-supporting-health/

Education.  Support.  Building community.  Training in new skills.  Creating a vibrant neighborhood of mixed income levels. 

We know how to do it, but it is so much easier to just shame people who are already vulnerable.

I skimmed parts of it, and I'm not completely understanding the timeline, but these grand projects usually end in disaster.  Sometimes it takes decades (a generation maybe) to learn they don't work.

This does seem different in that it's about education and community, not just housing and food.  Time will tell.

Jamesqf

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2013, 08:45:42 PM »
This works http://www.healthpolicysolutions.org/2012/10/17/public-housing-project-a-national-model-for-supporting-health/

Evidence?  Skimming through, it seems as though it's a work in progress, with arguably good intentions*, but not much in the way of results.

*But it seems to me that there's a disturbing thread of racism running through the article, though I'm not sure whether it's in the project itself, or just the writer's attitude.

davisgang90

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2013, 06:37:07 AM »
I have a heart for the poor among us.  My church supports several efforts in the low-income portions of DC and last year I volunteered at an inner-city DC school.

I think that the impact of children born out of wedlock/committed relationships has a devastating impact on our society.

Quote
Georgia Supreme Court Chief Justice Leah Ward Sears has noted, children born to unmarried women and to those in cohabiting relationships "must often overcome increased risks of poverty, education failure, child abuse, delinquency, emotional distress and mental illness."……the lack of a father's guidance in children's lives is a major cause of their suffering. "Marriage is the best child welfare, crime prevention, anti-poverty program we have,"

"Ominously, the most reliable predictor of crime is neither poverty nor race but growing up fatherless."
Fortune Magazine

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #107 on: September 29, 2013, 07:18:34 AM »
I have a heart for the poor among us.  My church supports several efforts in the low-income portions of DC and last year I volunteered at an inner-city DC school.

I think that the impact of children born out of wedlock/committed relationships has a devastating impact on our society.

Quote
Georgia Supreme Court Chief Justice Leah Ward Sears has noted, children born to unmarried women and to those in cohabiting relationships "must often overcome increased risks of poverty, education failure, child abuse, delinquency, emotional distress and mental illness."……the lack of a father's guidance in children's lives is a major cause of their suffering. "Marriage is the best child welfare, crime prevention, anti-poverty program we have,"

"Ominously, the most reliable predictor of crime is neither poverty nor race but growing up fatherless."
Fortune Magazine

Yay! Nice work.

Daleth

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #108 on: September 29, 2013, 07:21:02 AM »
I think that the impact of children born out of wedlock/committed relationships has a devastating impact on our society.

Tell that to my sibling and me. Our dad was a deadbeat, gone by the time I was 5, and we're both happily married, creative, happy, wealthy professionals (and part-time landlords) with no criminal record at all. Our mom was not only single but disabled, and we were so broke that I remember ducking behind the counter so the guy who came to shut off our utilities (this couldn't be done remotely back then) would think no one was home and go away.

I think the key is that the single parent must (1) love the kids and let them know it, verbally, emotionally and practically; (2) teach the kids to value education and aspire to something more; (3) not make a mess of his/her personal life (i.e. not an endless series of shiftless temporary boyfriends/girlfriends), or at least not expose the kids to the mess; (4) not have a victim mindset and (5) cultivate a strong social network, whether extended family or friends who might as well be family, so the kids feel like part of a community and there's someone to pick up the occasional slack.

I'm not negating the importance of a good dad (or for gay couples, second parent) here. But note the adjective "good": having no dad is better than having a bad dad. That said, a good dad is worth his weight in gold, and if I'd had one I highly doubt I would've flailed through my teens and twenties in a series of bad relationships.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 07:22:49 AM by Daleth »

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #109 on: September 29, 2013, 07:53:43 AM »
I have a heart for the poor among us.  My church supports several efforts in the low-income portions of DC and last year I volunteered at an inner-city DC school.

I think that the impact of children born out of wedlock/committed relationships has a devastating impact on our society.

Quote
Georgia Supreme Court Chief Justice Leah Ward Sears has noted, children born to unmarried women and to those in cohabiting relationships "must often overcome increased risks of poverty, education failure, child abuse, delinquency, emotional distress and mental illness."……the lack of a father's guidance in children's lives is a major cause of their suffering. "Marriage is the best child welfare, crime prevention, anti-poverty program we have,"

"Ominously, the most reliable predictor of crime is neither poverty nor race but growing up fatherless."
Fortune Magazine

Yay! Nice work.

Ironically the federal government promoted fatherless children for much of the middle of the 20th century.  Many welfare requirements were tied to the father not being in the family's life.

Abe

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #110 on: September 29, 2013, 08:19:48 AM »
Whole Foods is opening a store in Englewood, one of the poorest and most dangerous neighborhoods in Chicago (and the US, for that matter).  I hope they sell cheaper food though. They did the same in a neighborhood of Detroit with good results apparently.

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #111 on: September 29, 2013, 12:11:07 PM »
Whole Foods is opening a store in Englewood, one of the poorest and most dangerous neighborhoods in Chicago (and the US, for that matter).  I hope they sell cheaper food though. They did the same in a neighborhood of Detroit with good results apparently.

Can you confirm that it's going in at 63rd and Halstead?  That's a pretty awful food desert.  After all the nearest aldi is as much as .2 miles away!

I know you didn't call it a food desert, but the chicago media did.

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Aldi&daddr=63rd+and+halsted&hl=en&ll=41.780201,-87.642644&spn=0.003208,0.005284&sll=41.780635,-87.643889&sspn=0.003208,0.005284&geocode=FbyCfQIdXbXG-iEVFQVGFB17uylJ6brh4C4OiDEVFQVGFB17uw%3BFSmCfQIdlqXG-imx7zS54y4OiDG0lA6evK-WJA&t=h&gl=us&mra=ls&z=18

grantmeaname

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #112 on: September 29, 2013, 12:32:55 PM »
When it comes to ending poverty, what works?

This works http://www.healthpolicysolutions.org/2012/10/17/public-housing-project-a-national-model-for-supporting-health/

Education.  Support.  Building community.  Training in new skills.  Creating a vibrant neighborhood of mixed income levels. 

We know how to do it, but it is so much easier to just shame people who are already vulnerable.
How much did this cost? What, if anything, has it done to end poverty? I found nothing in the entire article to convince me anything about anything, and certainly not the kind of evidence needed to declare something a cure for poverty.

Abe

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2013, 07:59:54 AM »

Can you confirm that it's going in at 63rd and Halstead?  That's a pretty awful food desert.  After all the nearest aldi is as much as .2 miles away!

I know you didn't call it a food desert, but the chicago media did.

That's the plan! The USDA map shows that Chicago actually has very few food deserts if you use the 1-mile limit (which I think is completely reasonable). Also, they don't include small grocery stores that have less than $2 million in sales per year.  There are a hundreds of such stores in Chicago.

I think the Whole Foods thing is a marketing ploy, unless their prices are a lot lower than at their other stores.

randymarsh

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2013, 09:49:21 AM »
Ironically the federal government promoted fatherless children for much of the middle of the 20th century.  Many welfare requirements were tied to the father not being in the family's life.

Maybe not the federal government directly anymore, but the system still promotes fatherless children. They've attempted to solve some of the financial problems with child support enforcement and wage garnishment, but they don't encourage actual involvement. The state has long viewed fathers as little more than a piggy bank.

ace1224

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2013, 09:48:32 AM »

I think that the impact of children born out of wedlock/committed relationships has a devastating impact on our society.


damn, my kid is screwed then. lol.  poor bastard child (true story NC made me and the partner sign an affidavit of paternity for a child born out of wedlock)

seriously though, statements like that don't really make sense in today's society when there are more people shacking up than getting married.

grantmeaname

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2013, 09:56:42 AM »
there are more people shacking up than getting married.
[citation needed]

There may be more cohabitation than in previous years, but it usually leads to marriage and still isn't that common on an absolute scale.

ace1224

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2013, 10:31:16 AM »
there are more people shacking up than getting married.
[citation needed]

There may be more cohabitation than in previous years, but it usually leads to marriage and still isn't that common on an absolute scale.
http://consumer.healthday.com/public-health-information-30/centers-for-disease-control-news-120/more-u-s-couples-living-together-instead-of-marrying-cdc-finds-675096.html

you're right i should have said people shacking up before they get married.  my whole point though can be summed up in this quote from the article Children tend to be happier and healthier the more stable their parents' union is, regardless of whether the "union" has been formalized or not, she added.

davisgang90

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #118 on: October 01, 2013, 10:36:17 AM »
there are more people shacking up than getting married.
[citation needed]

There may be more cohabitation than in previous years, but it usually leads to marriage and still isn't that common on an absolute scale.
http://consumer.healthday.com/public-health-information-30/centers-for-disease-control-news-120/more-u-s-couples-living-together-instead-of-marrying-cdc-finds-675096.html

you're right i should have said people shacking up before they get married.  my whole point though can be summed up in this quote from the article Children tend to be happier and healthier the more stable their parents' union is, regardless of whether the "union" has been formalized or not, she added.
Which is of course, why I said marriage or committed relationship.  Reading really is Fundamental.

grantmeaname

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #119 on: October 01, 2013, 10:55:16 AM »
http://consumer.healthday.com/public-health-information-30/centers-for-disease-control-news-120/more-u-s-couples-living-together-instead-of-marrying-cdc-finds-675096.html
The article says that more people are living together now than were living together before, not that more people are living together now and not getting married than getting married now.

ace1224

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #120 on: October 01, 2013, 11:09:04 AM »
there are more people shacking up than getting married.
[citation needed]

There may be more cohabitation than in previous years, but it usually leads to marriage and still isn't that common on an absolute scale.
http://consumer.healthday.com/public-health-information-30/centers-for-disease-control-news-120/more-u-s-couples-living-together-instead-of-marrying-cdc-finds-675096.html

you're right i should have said people shacking up before they get married.  my whole point though can be summed up in this quote from the article Children tend to be happier and healthier the more stable their parents' union is, regardless of whether the "union" has been formalized or not, she added.
Which is of course, why I said marriage or committed relationship.  Reading really is Fundamental.

you said
I think that the impact of children born out of wedlock/committed relationships has a devastating impact on our society.
did i read that wrong?  if i did i'm sorry but i took it as you felt children born to unmarried couples (wedlock/committed relationships) had a devastating impact.  i didn't see where you said if the unmarried parents stayed together it was ok

ace1224

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #121 on: October 01, 2013, 11:11:12 AM »
http://consumer.healthday.com/public-health-information-30/centers-for-disease-control-news-120/more-u-s-couples-living-together-instead-of-marrying-cdc-finds-675096.html
The article says that more people are living together now than were living together before, not that more people are living together now and not getting married than getting married now.
i know. that's why i said that i should have said before they get married.  i originally said something wrong, thank you for prompting me to correct it. those kids are still born out of wedlock though, even if their parents do get married later on.  i guess i consider that shacking up even if a marriage results out of it.  i spoke before i totally thought it through.  sorry

grantmeaname

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #122 on: October 01, 2013, 11:19:44 AM »
I think everyone's really getting at the same thing here, which is that as a generality kids are better off when raised by a committed couple. By my reading, davisgang90 was suggesting that on a societal level there's a high cost to the sheer number of exceptions to that statement, but that's not the only valid way to interpret it and may not even be what he meant.

more4less

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #123 on: October 04, 2013, 04:35:34 PM »
I'm quite skeptical about all these stories. I came to US with $400 in my pocket. I was lucky that I had a place to stay - someone from my extended family allowed me to sleep in his living room. My 1st job was 2 miles away, I walked to it every morning - I didn't have a bike then. When I got my 1st check, I bought groceries and carried them in my backpack on order to put my share on the table of the family which kindly gave me shelter. My story isn't unique since millions of immigrants worked their asses off to change their life for good and succeeded in it with very little help from gov't. $4.50 a day? Wow! it's like dozen of eggs, or roughly 10 lbs of rice. There's a saying where I came from: When one wants (something) he looks for ways, when one doesn't want - he looks for excuses.

I agree about people (some of whom happen to be poor) make poor choices. This part of the forum (Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy) is dedicated to bashing people making poor decisions. But it's terribly wrong to say the exactly same thing about poor people. I think I missed conversation where we set the income level on such topic. Should it be minimum wage for the area? Or shall we go with federal one?

PS: actually 7-11 near me sells gallon of milk for 40c less than "real" grocery stores like Lucky or Safeway.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 04:37:40 PM by more4less »

Jack

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #124 on: October 04, 2013, 07:35:13 PM »
I'm amused that in 2 weeks and 3 pages, there still hasn't been a post citing a genuine urban food desert that hasn't been debunked.

Jamesqf

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #125 on: October 04, 2013, 08:49:58 PM »
$4.50 a day? Wow! it's like dozen of eggs, or roughly 10 lbs of rice.

Yeah.  At the local WinCo, that's just about 4 dozen eggs (I think they're $1.19/doz).  You might only get 7-8 lbs of (long grain brown) rice, which IIRC is about $0.55/lb.  For variety, there are plenty of bulk beans, lentils, pasta and so on in the same price range.