Author Topic: Panera CEO and Food Stamps  (Read 37236 times)

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2013, 02:19:38 PM »
Do you live in a city where, say, 19 gunshots might be fired at a gas station? I do.

No, I live in the country, where it's not unheard of to have bears rummaging through people's trash cans, or eating windfall fruit from our gardens :-)  And where most if not all of my near neighbors have guns, in some cases sizeable arsenals, and yet somehow everybody manages not to shoot anyone else.  (Dunno about gas stations, as the nearest is at least miles away.  Though one acquaintance, the cop now known as "Bob of the Nine Fingers" did manage an accidental discharge while cleaning his service weapon :-))

So the question is, why do you keep on living in a place that is so dangerous?  (Or conversely, why is the place you live so dangerous?)  I have lived in cities on occasion, when it was unavoidable, and not in the upscale neighborhoods, yet somehow managed to avoid being shot at.  Are there no neighborhoods where people don't shoot at each other?

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Holy cow. Some of you are really sheltered. Have you been in a house without running water in the US? Have you been to a poor person's house or, worse, a unit inside the projects?

Yes, I've lived in housing without running water.  (Ever been a migrant farm worker?)  And while I've avoided "the projects" (not being an urbanite), I was a poor person for the first half of my life.

My point was not to divert from the topic of the poor. I probably was not that clear. My point was that poor people have a lot of issues made worse by being poor (or perhaps even causing the poverty in the first place!). It's such a complicated issue. At the same time, I think it's unfeeling to suggest--as one prev poster did--that poor people make poor choices. I think that is no more true of poor people than of any other class.


EMP

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2013, 02:28:53 PM »
Quote from: Mega link=topic=8931.msg139707#msg139707 date=

Why, if you are working 40 hours a week at minimum wage, does the government provide money for food? Isn't this just an indirect government subsidy for the businesses paying people minimum wage? Ditto for all of the other government subsidies (housing, medicare (?), etc).


A-fuckin'-men

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2013, 03:22:51 PM »
For the heck of it, I checked our address in Tennessee. Nearest grocery store is 5 miles away, it's a Sav-A-Lot. For staples, I'd say it's ok on most things (bread a bit expensive, bananas cheap, flour and sugar should be virtually the same everywhere, processed foods seemed more unhealthy than "usual"). The next step up in grocery stores is a Piggly Wiggly 6 miles away. I don't consider these roads safe for biking; we almost got sideswiped by a car in our lane (very curvy roads), though there is usually a nice big ditch on either side of the road, I guess that's a positive.

The closest Walmart is 17 miles away (google maps insists it's longer, it appears to not want to route us on the road with a one-lane bridge). It is a supercenter, but it's about as small as those come (only one entrance). For most shopping, you'd head north about 40 miles (several Walmarts and other grocery stores, competition drives prices down a good bit). I've definitely noticed higher prices at Walmarts with little/no competition.

I'm not sure how that factors into the discussion, but just seemed odd to me that people were complaining about no grocery stores within a couple miles.

Where we're staying now, it's 1.4 miles to the nearest grocery store. I consider that walking distance (we generally take the car to do our weekly grocery run, but I've definitely walked further for other things).

Rebecca Stapler

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2013, 03:31:18 PM »
In the neighborhoods I'm thinking of, the Tenderloin and South of Market, public transit would involve taking a bus to the light rail, which would be a 45 minute endeavor each way.

I did a Google Earth search for "Safeway" (which I hear is a reasonable grocery store -- we don't have them in Georgia) and the farthest point away from them in those neighborhoods, which I eyeballed to be somewhere in the vicinity of Golden Gate Avenue and Market Street, is still within 1.2 miles. Admittedly, it'd be nice if they put another Safeway right near that intersection, and I'm sure there are hills to deal with, but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. (And that's just Safeways; there might be other closer grocery stores that I don't know about.)


IDK what's up with Google Earth, but that Safeway is not on Googlemaps and I know for a fact that there was no Safeway at Golden Gate and Market when I lived there in 2007. There was one at Market and Castro St., which is where I went.

Rebecca Stapler

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2013, 03:33:04 PM »
The problem with all these dumbass "challenges" is that trying to do this sort of thing a week at a time just sets themselves up for failure. The absolute crucial strategy for keeping food costs low enough is to buy in bulk, which the self-imposed rules of these things automatically eliminate.

I bet they do it on purpose, too, since their agenda is invariably "See? It's impossible; we need to raise the food stamp amount/minimum wage/whatever!"

I think you're missing the point. Most people actually on food stamps live in areas where they CAN'T buy in bulk. Many live in food deserts, meaning there aren't any grocery stores AT ALL. And many don't even have a car to drive to a nicer neighborhood for food. They get their food at the local market, which isn't very cost-effective.

Do you mean like local corner store/7-11 market or like local farmers market?  Local farmers markets can sometimes be cheaper depending on their setup.

The food desert seems to be a joke as well.  Maybe some cities really have them, but I am yet to see one in St. Louis.  Oh, I hear about them, but there isn't an area I've seen in the city that isn't within a mile (absolute max 1.5 miles) of a decent grocery store.

The food desert is real. In some parts of San Francisco, a legitimate grocery store is miles away. But there is no shortage of convenience and liquor stores.

So they can't use the bus to ride a mile to the store?

I think the problem is poor people are making poor choices. The path of least resistance is to go to the corner store and get the inflated priced food off the shelf.

The person said "miles" and not "one mile." You may not be familiar with food deserts. It means there is nowhere to buy food anywhere near where you live. There are food deserts in DC. The only "food" is liquor and whatever junk food is sold. Sometimes, there is a McD's.

Sure, the person said "miles" but he was wrong. You must have missed my earlier post where I pointed out that, even in the bad neighborhoods he cited, there's still a Safeway barely more than a mile in pretty much any direction.

I've already debunked the idea of food deserts in San Francisco and Atlanta; considering the flawed assumptions and poor methodology in the USDA maps I don't believe they actually exist in DC either!

Dude, there is no Safeway at Golden Gate and Market, unless it was built in the last few years.

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2013, 05:13:34 PM »
Quote from: Mega link=topic=8931.msg139707#msg139707 date=

Why, if you are working 40 hours a week at minimum wage, does the government provide money for food? Isn't this just an indirect government subsidy for the businesses paying people minimum wage? Ditto for all of the other government subsidies (housing, medicare (?), etc).


A-fuckin'-men

Exactly.

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2013, 05:16:05 PM »
Do you live in a city where, say, 19 gunshots might be fired at a gas station? I do.

No, I live in the country, where it's not unheard of to have bears rummaging through people's trash cans, or eating windfall fruit from our gardens :-)  And where most if not all of my near neighbors have guns, in some cases sizeable arsenals, and yet somehow everybody manages not to shoot anyone else.  (Dunno about gas stations, as the nearest is at least miles away.  Though one acquaintance, the cop now known as "Bob of the Nine Fingers" did manage an accidental discharge while cleaning his service weapon :-))

So the question is, why do you keep on living in a place that is so dangerous?  (Or conversely, why is the place you live so dangerous?)  I have lived in cities on occasion, when it was unavoidable, and not in the upscale neighborhoods, yet somehow managed to avoid being shot at.  Are there no neighborhoods where people don't shoot at each other?

Quote
Holy cow. Some of you are really sheltered. Have you been in a house without running water in the US? Have you been to a poor person's house or, worse, a unit inside the projects?

Yes, I've lived in housing without running water.  (Ever been a migrant farm worker?)  And while I've avoided "the projects" (not being an urbanite), I was a poor person for the first half of my life.

I'd say where I live is dangerous because guns are easy to get.

I think the question is not why do I live in a place with a lot of guns, but why are there a lot of guns where I live?

Zikoris

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2013, 05:20:09 PM »
Home grocery delivery is widely available in DC, both from major stores and independent companies.

I've been told there are food deserts in Vancouver, believe it or not. What a load of horseshit.

Constance Noring

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2013, 06:25:38 PM »
Why, if you are working 40 hours a week at minimum wage, does the government provide money for food?

Nobody's working 40 hours a week at minimum wage. Forty hours a week means overtime. It means access to paid time off, to sick leave, to benefits. No company that runs its business model by paying the bare minimum (and most American companies do these days) wants to invest like that in their workers.

So you find yourself scheduled just shy of full time, and if you get any sort of raise, you may find your hours cut to offset the additional increase to payroll. One week you work 30 hours and the next you work 10. Those decisions are made for you, by the bottom-line watchers at corporate. So why put up with it? Because you're easily replaceable and you're operating on such a razor thin margin that you can't afford even a second's hiccup in the flow of incoming and outgoing money or the whole house of cards comes down.

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Why not set the minimum wage to a reasonable level, and set it to automatically adjust with inflation?

Because that would require businesses to cut into their profit margins in order to offset the payroll increase, and goodness me, we can't ask that of job creators!

Daleth

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2013, 06:42:52 PM »
The problem with all these dumbass "challenges" is that trying to do this sort of thing a week at a time just sets themselves up for failure. The absolute crucial strategy for keeping food costs low enough is to buy in bulk, which the self-imposed rules of these things automatically eliminate.

I bet they do it on purpose, too, since their agenda is invariably "See? It's impossible; we need to raise the food stamp amount/minimum wage/whatever!"

I think you're missing the point. Most people actually on food stamps live in areas where they CAN'T buy in bulk. Many live in food deserts, meaning there aren't any grocery stores AT ALL. And many don't even have a car to drive to a nicer neighborhood for food. They get their food at the local market, which isn't very cost-effective.

Do you mean like local corner store/7-11 market or like local farmers market?  Local farmers markets can sometimes be cheaper depending on their setup.

The food desert seems to be a joke as well.  Maybe some cities really have them, but I am yet to see one in St. Louis.  Oh, I hear about them, but there isn't an area I've seen in the city that isn't within a mile (absolute max 1.5 miles) of a decent grocery store.

The food desert is real. In some parts of San Francisco, a legitimate grocery store is miles away. But there is no shortage of convenience and liquor stores.

So they can't use the bus to ride a mile to the store?

I think the problem is poor people are making poor choices. The path of least resistance is to go to the corner store and get the inflated priced food off the shelf.

That's a very convenient conclusion if your goal is to reinforce your sense of being superior to them and/or your sense that being poor is their fault so we have zero moral obligation to help them. Unfortunately it has no bearing on the reality of buying food when you're poor in America.

I'm not going to reveal what city I'm in, but there are several food deserts in my city--neighborhoods where the nearest grocery store is 2 miles or more away and the nearest bulk place (Costco etc.) may be 8+ miles away--and our public transportation system is both inadequate and expensive (nice combo!). By that I mean that our bus schedules have no relationship to the times buses actually arrive, which makes it very difficult to plan any trip that involves transferring from one bus to another, particularly for the half a year or more that it's either snowing, sleeting, raining or just freezing cold. That makes shopping at a normal grocery store (much less a Costco type place), for those in food deserts, a complete pain in the ass even for able-bodied childless people, and close to impossible for anyone who either is raising kids alone, has disabilities or is old and frail.

And unfortunately, raising kids alone, having a disability and being old and frail are all more common among the poor than in the general population. What are you supposed to do, spend half an hour on the bus with your kids, then half an hour with bags of groceries and kids waiting at a bus stop in the rain, then another however long on the bus that actually goes near your house, and then walk from the bus stop to your house (easily 1/4-1/2 mile in some places) with your kids and bags of groceries through the rain? And for this privilege you pay $8-$10 in bus fare on top of your food costs, and lose 2-3 hours of your day?

Given that as their only other option, a lot of people just buy canned food and frozen meals at the 7-11 in their neighborhood. I personally can't blame them.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 06:45:26 PM by Daleth »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2013, 06:46:36 PM »
Honestly, as an outsider looking at USA, the food stamps program, and a couple of other programs, just don't make sense to me.

Why, if you are working 40 hours a week at minimum wage, does the government provide money for food? Isn't this just an indirect government subsidy for the businesses paying people minimum wage? Ditto for all of the other government subsidies (housing, medicare (?), etc).

Why not set the minimum wage to a reasonable level, and set it to automatically adjust with inflation?

Isn't the 1950s minimum wage something like $15 and hour, adjusted for inflation?

It's pretty simple. The minimum wage was never intended to guarantee a sufficient income for a family of four. Teens and young adults who live with their parents don't need as much money to survive as single people living on their own do. Single people living on their own need less money to survive than working parents do. Some people have a spouse or other family members who bring in enough cash to meet the family's basic needs, while others do not. Some people have found jobs that can pay for a full 40-hour schedule (or more), while others have not. Other people have already saved enough money to retire and are working less for a paycheck and more because they enjoy it. Given the fact that everyone's financial situation is different, the minimum wage is set at a relatively low level that's the same for everyone regardless of family situation or other factors. Programs like food stamps exist to fill in the gaps for families whose overall income ends up being too low (in the government's estimate) to purchase basic necessities.

A low minimum wage helps people who don't have many skills break into the workforce so that they have a chance at someday moving up to higher-value employment. Imagine if the minimum wage was $20/hr. This would be great for some people who are currently making less, but whose employers could afford to pay them more. Lots of businesses run on lower margins than that, and simply could not afford to pay their lowest-skilled workers that much. All the people whose skills are not worth $20/hr to any employer would never have a chance to have any employment and would be a permanent drain on social welfare programs.

You can choose to view the low minimum wage (and food stamps) as a subsidy for low-paying employers, or you can view the existence of the low-wage employment as a way to minimize the number of people who need to resort to programs like food stamps in the first place. In a system that has as many moving parts as the economy, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #61 on: September 19, 2013, 06:46:46 PM »
Home grocery delivery is widely available in DC, both from major stores and independent companies.

I've been told there are food deserts in Vancouver, believe it or not. What a load of horseshit.

Have you tried to get home grocery delivery to Anacostia in SW DC? Do they deliver to the projects?

How would people order? Would they have to pay for an internet connection or walk to a library? I can assure you there won't be a cafe with free wifi if there are no grocery stores.

Looks like someone could pay around $12.95 to have groceries delivered. Not sure that is sustainable for poor folks.

"Somewhat pricey though.  More likely because it's the only decent and safe grocery store to go to where you won't have to be afraid of getting shot at in DC. Not a bad place to shop. Make sure to get your Safeway card though. It actually does save you a lot of money."

And here is another review of the same Safeway. You can see it sucks before the white people move in and then gets better once they do:

"A year and a half ago when I lived in SW, I traveled across the bridge to Arlington to do my grocery shopping. Oh! There was a Safeway at this location at the time, but it was so vile, so abhorant, so make-your-skin-crawl-and-pull-your-hair-out-by-­the-roots-while-screaming-like-a-white-woman-in-­church ridiculous that shopping here was likened to rummaging through the dumpster behind a Yum's or something. It was very much like that show Fear Factor...I mean, without any of the prizes or incentives for compromising your health or dignity.

I've since moved and hadn't had the interest or inclination to venture back to that Safeway...until recently. Since I still work in the SW area, I figured I'd drive by the old stomping grounds to check out the renovations that were supposed to revitalize and transform the area. OMG! WTF! SMH! LOL! MILF! No, wait...not that one. But LORD! I did NOT recognize not only the Safeway, but the area altogether. When you guys say "gentrification," you muthafricken mean it!"
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 06:57:08 PM by oldtoyota »

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2013, 06:50:18 PM »
The problem with all these dumbass "challenges" is that trying to do this sort of thing a week at a time just sets themselves up for failure. The absolute crucial strategy for keeping food costs low enough is to buy in bulk, which the self-imposed rules of these things automatically eliminate.

I bet they do it on purpose, too, since their agenda is invariably "See? It's impossible; we need to raise the food stamp amount/minimum wage/whatever!"

I think you're missing the point. Most people actually on food stamps live in areas where they CAN'T buy in bulk. Many live in food deserts, meaning there aren't any grocery stores AT ALL. And many don't even have a car to drive to a nicer neighborhood for food. They get their food at the local market, which isn't very cost-effective.

Do you mean like local corner store/7-11 market or like local farmers market?  Local farmers markets can sometimes be cheaper depending on their setup.

The food desert seems to be a joke as well.  Maybe some cities really have them, but I am yet to see one in St. Louis.  Oh, I hear about them, but there isn't an area I've seen in the city that isn't within a mile (absolute max 1.5 miles) of a decent grocery store.

The food desert is real. In some parts of San Francisco, a legitimate grocery store is miles away. But there is no shortage of convenience and liquor stores.

So they can't use the bus to ride a mile to the store?

I think the problem is poor people are making poor choices. The path of least resistance is to go to the corner store and get the inflated priced food off the shelf.

That's a very convenient conclusion if your goal is to reinforce your sense of being superior to them and/or your sense that being poor is their fault so we have zero moral obligation to help them. Unfortunately it has no bearing on the reality of buying food when you're poor in America.

I'm not going to reveal what city I'm in, but there are several food deserts in my city--neighborhoods where the nearest grocery store is 2 miles or more away and the nearest bulk place (Costco etc.) may be 8+ miles away--and our public transportation system is both inadequate and expensive (nice combo!). By that I mean that our bus schedules have no relationship to the times buses actually arrive, which makes it very difficult to plan any trip that involves transferring from one bus to another, particularly for the half a year or more that it's either snowing, sleeting, raining or just freezing cold. That makes shopping at a normal grocery store (much less a Costco type place), for those in food deserts, a complete pain in the ass even for able-bodied childless people, and close to impossible for anyone who either is raising kids alone, has disabilities or is old and frail.

And unfortunately, raising kids alone, having a disability and being old and frail are all more common among the poor than in the general population. What are you supposed to do, spend half an hour on the bus with your kids, then half an hour with bags of groceries and kids waiting at a bus stop in the rain, then another however long on the bus that actually goes near your house, and then walk from the bus stop to your house (easily 1/4-1/2 mile in some places) with your kids and bags of groceries through the rain? And for this privilege you pay $8-$10 in bus fare on top of your food costs, and lose 2-3 hours of your day?

Given that as their only other option, a lot of people just buy canned food and frozen meals at the 7-11 in their neighborhood. I personally can't blame them.

+1

Joshin

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2013, 06:56:04 PM »
Actually, the whole "Poor People Make Poor Decisions" is exactly what we collectively need to look at. People in every financial class make poor decisions, but when you are already walking a fine line, a couple poor decisions can spiral you out of control and sentence you to a lifetime of poverty. Throw in a dose of ignorance, so you don't even know the decision is bad, and the situation escalates into generational poverty. So, why do people make poor decisions and what tools can help people make better decisions in a tough situation?

It's perfectly okay to point out a bad decision made by a relatively middle class person, but it's not PC to point out the same bad decision made by a poor person? Give me a break. As for our case (which I know does not mirror that of every single poor person), we had a couple of things out of our control happen, then we made a lot of bad decisions. Bam! Suddenly it was a choice between food or a roof over our heads. We went without heat one winter, and there were several weeks in there without electricity and phones. The bad fortune would have set us back, but the bad decisions were what hurt us for the longest time. Fortunately, we were educated enough to recognize our bad decisions and recover, and eventually thrive, but a lot of people in the poverty cycle aren't.

We as a society need to drop the touchy-feely, it ain't your fault crap. All it does is breed victims of poverty. Instead, people need to know that yes, some of the fault does lie with them, but that's a good thing. It means they can recover, it means things can improve, it empowers people so they can make their lives at least a little bit better.

I spent a lot of time in the so-called ghetto surrounded by others in poverty. Some you would never know they were poor. They made good decisions and lived very mustachian lives in many ways. Sure, they weren't making enough to retire early, but they were able to live an enjoyable, comfortable life within their meager means. Others weren't faring as well, mainly because they didn't know how so they instantly blew what little they had, then compounded it with more bad decisions. Educating people first, giving them a hand up second, could work wonders. I don't know how to do it, but it needs done in a respectable, caring manner if the cycle is ever to be broken. The source of the problem needs cured, even as we treat the symptoms with food stamps and other programs.

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2013, 07:01:11 PM »
I doubt there's an area in the nation that you can go where there will, as you say, be "guns going pop pop around you?"

You are kidding, right? It's called DC. If you have only been to touristy areas, you would not have experienced it.






Daleth

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2013, 07:04:58 PM »
It's perfectly okay to point out a bad decision made by a relatively middle class person, but it's not PC to point out the same bad decision made by a poor person?

Where are you getting that?! No one here has issued any kind of blanket "poor people don't make bad decisions" or "we can't consider their decisions to be poor" statement. We were talking very specifically about the difficulty of grocery shopping for poor people who live in food deserts, and how in that context their decision to shop at their local 7-11 (and thus be stuck with the crap available there, at crappy prices) was totally understandable.

That has no bearing on other issues like "it's a bad decision to drop out of high school" or "it's a bad decision to choose a lifestyle and fashion sense that interferes with getting a job" or "it's a bad decision to get a girl pregnant when you and/or she are teenagers with no money or education."

Educating people first, giving them a hand up second, could work wonders. I don't know how to do it, but it needs done in a respectable, caring manner if the cycle is ever to be broken. The source of the problem needs cured, even as we treat the symptoms with food stamps and other programs.

With that I completely agree.

Joshin

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2013, 07:21:09 PM »

Where are you getting that?! No one here has issued any kind of blanket "poor people don't make bad decisions" or "we can't consider their decisions to be poor" statement. We were talking very specifically about the difficulty of grocery shopping for poor people who live in food deserts, and how in that context their decision to shop at their local 7-11 (and thus be stuck with the crap available there, at crappy prices) was totally understandable.

That has no bearing on other issues like "it's a bad decision to drop out of high school" or "it's a bad decision to choose a lifestyle and fashion sense that interferes with getting a job" or "it's a bad decision to get a girl pregnant when you and/or she are teenagers with no money or education."


Actually, it is a poor decision. Even in a food desert, there are better options. Options that can actually save time, sanity and headaches in the long run. SNAP benefits are paid once monthly. A person, depending on canned goods, frozen foods, and non-perishables for the bulk of their meals, could do all their main grocery shopping once monthly. What's left goes to the overpriced gas station for milk and such. Most people, no matter how hard up, know at least one person with a car or can scrape together cab fare once monthly. This how many of the elderly on low incomes handle their shopping. Heck, a special transport service for groceries (which is supplied to the elderly in many cities and a few grassroots groups also have set some up) provided once or twice monthly for free to those with qualifying benefits could help even more than raising benefit amounts. Of course, it will only work if people learn how to plan for these trips.

Like I said, we need to figure our why the poor decisions are being made and what can be done to encourage better decisions. If it's easier to hit up the stop n' shop, how can we make getting to a real grocery store easier? And what needs to be done so people aren't ignorant of the option can can use it to its utmost potential?

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2013, 07:25:51 PM »

Nobody's working 40 hours a week at minimum wage. Forty hours a week means overtime. It means access to paid time off, to sick leave, to benefits. No company that runs its business model by paying the bare minimum (and most American companies do these days) wants to invest like that in their workers.

Unless they're working at multiple part-time jobs, getting none of those things, but, yes, still working 40 hours or more at minimum wage.

Zikoris

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2013, 07:39:18 PM »
Home grocery delivery is widely available in DC, both from major stores and independent companies.

I've been told there are food deserts in Vancouver, believe it or not. What a load of horseshit.

Have you tried to get home grocery delivery to Anacostia in SW DC? Do they deliver to the projects?

How would people order? Would they have to pay for an internet connection or walk to a library? I can assure you there won't be a cafe with free wifi if there are no grocery stores.

Looks like someone could pay around $12.95 to have groceries delivered. Not sure that is sustainable for poor folks.

"Somewhat pricey though.  More likely because it's the only decent and safe grocery store to go to where you won't have to be afraid of getting shot at in DC. Not a bad place to shop. Make sure to get your Safeway card though. It actually does save you a lot of money."


Peapod apparently delivers to Anacostia. Not sure what areas are considered "the projects" seeing as I don't live there, but delivery coverage seems to be pretty widespread. Peapod charges less for delivery the more you order, from 7.95 to 9.95 for an order - not bad if you do it, say, once a month.

Walking to a library once a month to use internet doesn't seem that arduous to me. For delivery from a grocery store(rather than a delivery service), you would normally call orders in.

I wonder what would happen if people put half the effort into making positive life changes that they put into making excuses...

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2013, 08:41:44 PM »
Home grocery delivery is widely available in DC, both from major stores and independent companies.

I've been told there are food deserts in Vancouver, believe it or not. What a load of horseshit.

Have you tried to get home grocery delivery to Anacostia in SW DC? Do they deliver to the projects?

How would people order? Would they have to pay for an internet connection or walk to a library? I can assure you there won't be a cafe with free wifi if there are no grocery stores.

Looks like someone could pay around $12.95 to have groceries delivered. Not sure that is sustainable for poor folks.

"Somewhat pricey though.  More likely because it's the only decent and safe grocery store to go to where you won't have to be afraid of getting shot at in DC. Not a bad place to shop. Make sure to get your Safeway card though. It actually does save you a lot of money."


Peapod apparently delivers to Anacostia. Not sure what areas are considered "the projects" seeing as I don't live there, but delivery coverage seems to be pretty widespread. Peapod charges less for delivery the more you order, from 7.95 to 9.95 for an order - not bad if you do it, say, once a month.

Walking to a library once a month to use internet doesn't seem that arduous to me. For delivery from a grocery store(rather than a delivery service), you would normally call orders in.

I wonder what would happen if people put half the effort into making positive life changes that they put into making excuses...

Peapod does not accept SNAP or EBT, so that might be why more poor people don't use it. That and they might not have internet access.

In general, I like where you are going with the idea. At the same time, it doesn't address immigrants with limited English (who would have no idea Peapod exists), the elderly (who may not use the internet or be able to walk to the library, the mentally ill (who may not use the internet, etc). Of course, others *would* be able to use it, and so that sounds good. I wonder if they can get prescriptions. I just read a story about an elderly many who spends 8 hours in round-trip bus rides to get medication for cheap at a Walmart in the suburbs...although I have to wonder if the story is partly Walmart propaganda to make a case for building six stores in DC.

A few interesting articles I found:

"The idea [grocery delivery] is not, as you may expect, for vulnerable low-income populations to buy laptops, get high-speed wifi, and order heathful groceries. Even if the tools of the Internet Age were widely available and affordable—and they’re not yet – they wouldn’t be of much use to the elderly, immigrants with limited English, or folks who don’t have a credit card or bank account. But there’s no good reason why policymakers can’t intervene."


Also, you might find this interesting:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-04-01/news/0704010252_1_peapod-grocery-deliveries

Sounds like people in Chicago use it, and those that live in food deserts are not all poor.

Also, the article states, "Peapod doesn't deliver to certain neighborhoods because the broadband penetration for Internet access is not yet high enough to warrant delivery."

So, good and bad. Delivers to some areas and not others. Maybe it's a solution for the future--if they are ever allowed to accept SNAP.

With all due respect, your comment suggesting that poor people need to put more time into making betters choices instead of excuses comes off as lacking empathy. At the same time, you've suggested a service that those on food stamps can't even use. That's a great example of the middle or upper class sitting around talking about what the poor should do without having been in the shoes of the poor.






« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 08:53:41 PM by oldtoyota »

Systematic

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2013, 09:45:22 PM »
why all this judgement of "poor people". 

Doesn't matter whether we are rich or poor at the moment, the truth is we can try to control our circumstances, but there is every chance we're going to get hit by an unexpected event. Until we walk a mile in the shoes of the people we judge we really don't know the truth.

I suggest time is better spent volunteering rather than judging.

Jamesqf

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2013, 11:34:08 PM »
I'd say where I live is dangerous because guns are easy to get.

I think the question is not why do I live in a place with a lot of guns, but why are there a lot of guns where I live?

But that doesn't seem to be the whole story (to say the least!), because I live where guns are commonplace, and as easy to get as anywhere in the country.  They're often openly carried, too: the women I ride horses with generally carry pistols, for instance.

So maybe the question ought to be why people where you live use guns to e.g. shoot up the neighborhood gas station, while hereabouts they'll go back in the hills and set up a few targets.  (And there are places back there where on spring & fall weekends you will hear guns going "pop, pop, pop" around you.)  That in turn plays into larger questions, such as why particular urban areas are so dangerous, yet people continue to live there despite manifold disadvantages.


Systematic

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2013, 12:03:03 AM »
Jameqf

Whats the motivation for carrying guns?  People who live in this country only carry them to go hunting in the bush, otherwise they're locked away.

Do you feel threatened for some reason or is it ego driven.

this is a genuine question.

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2013, 06:38:41 AM »
why all this judgement of "poor people". 

Doesn't matter whether we are rich or poor at the moment, the truth is we can try to control our circumstances, but there is every chance we're going to get hit by an unexpected event. Until we walk a mile in the shoes of the people we judge we really don't know the truth.

I suggest time is better spent volunteering rather than judging.

Thank you. +1

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2013, 06:39:45 AM »
I'd say where I live is dangerous because guns are easy to get.

I think the question is not why do I live in a place with a lot of guns, but why are there a lot of guns where I live?

But that doesn't seem to be the whole story (to say the least!), because I live where guns are commonplace, and as easy to get as anywhere in the country.  They're often openly carried, too: the women I ride horses with generally carry pistols, for instance.

So maybe the question ought to be why people where you live use guns to e.g. shoot up the neighborhood gas station, while hereabouts they'll go back in the hills and set up a few targets.  (And there are places back there where on spring & fall weekends you will hear guns going "pop, pop, pop" around you.)  That in turn plays into larger questions, such as why particular urban areas are so dangerous, yet people continue to live there despite manifold disadvantages.

Maybe people who can afford to ride horses are less desperate and, therefore, less likely to rob people.

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2013, 07:51:55 AM »
With all the talk about food deserts, poor people making poor decisions, etc.

I'm thinking maybe it's not that they are making poor decisions but that it's easier for them to make poor decisions.  For example, where I currently live, there's a grocery store .5 miles away.  I can walk to it easily.  It's also the closest store that sells food.  Obviously I will go there for food.  It's better in the short term and long term.

Now take someone in the 'ghetto.'  The grocery store is 1 mile away.  The convenience store is at the end of the block.  They don't have a car.  In the short-term, it's much easier to go to the corner store.  While going to the grocery store is the optimal decision, the corner store can be chosen ... a series of seemingly optimal solutions resulting in a sub-optimal outcome.

P.S. I keep putting ghetto in quotes as I do not agree with calling them ghettos, but using the word is easiest for communication, because most everyone understands  what it means.

I doubt there's an area in the nation that you can go where there will, as you say, be "guns going pop pop around you?"

You are kidding, right? It's called DC. If you have only been to touristy areas, you would not have experienced it.

Somehow I have a hard time believing the areas in DC are worse than the areas in St. Louis.  Sure, these lists aren't perfect, but St. Louis has 2 neighborhoods on the worst 25, DC has 0.  Quite honestly, I'm not interested in debating this because the argument that people living in these areas are too afraid to go to the store is BS, and it detracts from the real argument/solutions.

Zikoris

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #76 on: September 20, 2013, 08:12:37 AM »
Quote
Peapod does not accept SNAP or EBT, so that might be why more poor people don't use it. That and they might not have internet access.

In general, I like where you are going with the idea. At the same time, it doesn't address immigrants with limited English (who would have no idea Peapod exists), the elderly (who may not use the internet or be able to walk to the library, the mentally ill (who may not use the internet, etc). Of course, others *would* be able to use it, and so that sounds good. I wonder if they can get prescriptions. I just read a story about an elderly many who spends 8 hours in round-trip bus rides to get medication for cheap at a Walmart in the suburbs...although I have to wonder if the story is partly Walmart propaganda to make a case for building six stores in DC.

A few interesting articles I found:

"The idea [grocery delivery] is not, as you may expect, for vulnerable low-income populations to buy laptops, get high-speed wifi, and order heathful groceries. Even if the tools of the Internet Age were widely available and affordable—and they’re not yet – they wouldn’t be of much use to the elderly, immigrants with limited English, or folks who don’t have a credit card or bank account. But there’s no good reason why policymakers can’t intervene."


Also, you might find this interesting:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-04-01/news/0704010252_1_peapod-grocery-deliveries

Sounds like people in Chicago use it, and those that live in food deserts are not all poor.

Also, the article states, "Peapod doesn't deliver to certain neighborhoods because the broadband penetration for Internet access is not yet high enough to warrant delivery."

So, good and bad. Delivers to some areas and not others. Maybe it's a solution for the future--if they are ever allowed to accept SNAP.

With all due respect, your comment suggesting that poor people need to put more time into making betters choices instead of excuses comes off as lacking empathy. At the same time, you've suggested a service that those on food stamps can't even use. That's a great example of the middle or upper class sitting around talking about what the poor should do without having been in the shoes of the poor.

That about covers Peapod, you missed the "other grocery stores that do delivery" it seems, the ones where you call orders in. This service is VERY popular among Vancouver seniors through small local grocery stores, that give free delivery to boot.

I don't have much sympathy for immigrants who "have no idea it exists" or old people who "can't use the internet". Life requires adaptation. When you have a problem, you start looking for solutions, different ones of which are available anywhere you go. It's almost a bit embarrassing when people in a city across the country complain about food costs and I can find a better place for them to shop from my computer in Vancouver, but it's happened before.

Systematic

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #77 on: September 20, 2013, 08:33:54 AM »
It appears the argument is that poor people make easy choices rather than intelligent ones which is why they can't live according to your specified limit, and justifies their current financial position,

It reminds me of a time straight after a natural disaster when a person from the rich side of town tried to justify why the poor side of town got hit and that they should have known the 1000 year event was going to happen, Little did they know where the next more destructive quake was going to hit.

It appears some people like to justify their perceived superior position by asserting that others just need to make better choices, The circumstances of the individual are irrelevant

As the mental health foundation says

Don't judge me until you know me.




mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #78 on: September 20, 2013, 08:58:34 AM »
It appears the argument is that poor people make easy choices rather than intelligent ones which is why they can't live according to your specified limit, and justifies their current financial position,

It reminds me of a time straight after a natural disaster when a person from the rich side of town tried to justify why the poor side of town got hit and that they should have known the 1000 year event was going to happen, Little did they know where the next more destructive quake was going to hit.

It appears some people like to justify their perceived superior position by asserting that others just need to make better choices, The circumstances of the individual are irrelevant

As the mental health foundation says

Don't judge me until you know me.

No, that's not what I said at all.

sherr

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2013, 09:04:56 AM »
Jameqf

Whats the motivation for carrying guns?  People who live in this country only carry them to go hunting in the bush, otherwise they're locked away.

Do you feel threatened for some reason or is it ego driven.

this is a genuine question.

I'm guessing that given they are in horse-riding territory the answer is probably "bears and mountain lions." Better to have a defense than not.

Even if that's not the answer though there are other possible reasons than the ones you suggest. Maybe they feel the need to make a political statement about their rights given the number of people who would like for guns to be illegal. Maybe they carry them "just in case" without feeling particularly threatened (most people lock their doors without feeling endangered. Locking your doors is just a wise precautionary measure.). Maybe they wish to have the means to put down their horse immediately if it were every critically injured instead of forcing it to suffer as they walked all the way to the house and back. Maybe they do it simply because it is their right, without any further motivations or considerations.

In the US gun ownership was a necessary fact of life for a long time, whether to defend yourself from wild animals, hunt, defend against bandits, fight with Native Americans :(, or revolt against the British. As such we tend to have very different cultural values around guns than most other countries, not to mention much stronger gun rights.

All that to say there's a lot more at play than simply "feeling threatened" or "having a big ego," but since it's cultural it's a lot harder to explain to a cultural outsider.

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #80 on: September 20, 2013, 09:17:54 AM »


I don't have much sympathy...

Yes. That is evident.

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #81 on: September 20, 2013, 09:19:18 AM »
It appears the argument is that poor people make easy choices rather than intelligent ones which is why they can't live according to your specified limit, and justifies their current financial position,

It reminds me of a time straight after a natural disaster when a person from the rich side of town tried to justify why the poor side of town got hit and that they should have known the 1000 year event was going to happen, Little did they know where the next more destructive quake was going to hit.

It appears some people like to justify their perceived superior position by asserting that others just need to make better choices, The circumstances of the individual are irrelevant

As the mental health foundation says

Don't judge me until you know me.

Exactly. I am disappointed at the superior attitude I've seen in this thread.

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #82 on: September 20, 2013, 11:36:09 AM »
Since the original quote there wasn't directed at anyone in particular, who exactly is demonstrating this superior attitude?

Maybe there's a few people who have made 'poor people make poor choices' comments, but on the whole I think everyone has had mostly logical comments.

It appears the argument is that poor people make easy choices rather than intelligent ones which is why they can't live according to your specified limit, and justifies their current financial position,

It reminds me of a time straight after a natural disaster when a person from the rich side of town tried to justify why the poor side of town got hit and that they should have known the 1000 year event was going to happen, Little did they know where the next more destructive quake was going to hit.

It appears some people like to justify their perceived superior position by asserting that others just need to make better choices, The circumstances of the individual are irrelevant

As the mental health foundation says

Don't judge me until you know me.

Exactly. I am disappointed at the superior attitude I've seen in this thread.
I think saying things like that is a cop-out for not wanting to give a real response. 

Though maybe you're just tired of responding to the thread, which is also understandable.  In that case, just say so and leave.

Jamesqf

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #83 on: September 20, 2013, 12:08:38 PM »
Jameqf

Whats the motivation for carrying guns?  People who live in this country only carry them to go hunting in the bush, otherwise they're locked away.

Do you feel threatened for some reason or is it ego driven.

this is a genuine question.

I'm guessing that given they are in horse-riding territory the answer is probably "bears and mountain lions." Better to have a defense than not.

Yes, that's part of it.  Also, these are women who are out riding, often alone, in areas that you would call "bush".  There's no cell phone service and you don't often run into other people, so they have a certain concern about human predators.

I should add that I personally have never felt any need to carry a gun when out riding, hiking, or whatever.  But all your other reasons probably apply, in one degree or another, to the neighbors.

Quote
In the US gun ownership was a necessary fact of life for a long time, whether to defend yourself from wild animals, hunt, defend against bandits, fight with Native Americans :(

Or (depending on which ancestors you're thinking of), to fight with the wasicu :-)

Systematic

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #84 on: September 20, 2013, 12:35:54 PM »
Mpbaker22

With a response like that, do you really question the interpretation of a superior atitude?

Systematic

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #85 on: September 20, 2013, 12:38:55 PM »
Jamesqf

Thanks for the gun explanation.

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #86 on: September 20, 2013, 01:05:00 PM »
Mpbaker22

With a response like that, do you really question the interpretation of a superior atitude?

Can you point to what exactly demonstrated a superior attitude?  I simply pointed out how ridiculous it is to claim people, who have made legitimate statements, are using superior attitudes.  It just didn't exist.

Making a one-line post about how everyone has superior attitudes is absurd and useless to the discussion.  And if you think that's a superior attitude, then fine, but it's fact.  ... And it's magnified by the fact he didn't point to any superior attitudes exhibited.

I guess if questioning an unsupported claim is indicative of a superior attitude, then yes, I am using a superior attitude.

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #87 on: September 20, 2013, 02:37:40 PM »

Can you point to what exactly demonstrated a superior attitude?

I'm guessing it might have been this:

Quote from: mpbaker22
In that case, just say so and leave.

As a casual observer I think that's the type of statement the poster was referring to.

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #88 on: September 20, 2013, 03:38:52 PM »

Can you point to what exactly demonstrated a superior attitude?

I'm guessing it might have been this:

Quote from: mpbaker22
In that case, just say so and leave.

As a casual observer I think that's the type of statement the poster was referring to.

no.  I made that statement in response to the claim that some posters had a superior attitude.

Jack

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #89 on: September 20, 2013, 04:15:18 PM »
The Washington Post disagrees with you that there are no food deserts in DC. And so do I.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/doing-away-with-food-deserts-in-the-district/2013/05/17/f3e7e2d2-bf1b-11e2-89c9-3be8095fe767_blog.html

That article has a citation chain that ultimately leads back to http://www.dchunger.org/pdf/grocerygap.pdf, which also seems to use a poor methodology. It does things like aggregate the data by ward then calculate things like "grocery store square feet per person" and "average distance to grocer" -- 0.66 miles in the worst case, by the way -- which are useless measures. (Why do we care about the average distance to the grocer? Either it's too far or it's not, and we only care about the former!)

Figuring out food deserts ought to be a whole lot simpler:
  • Decide what counts as a reasonable-quality grocery store
  • Make a list of all the grocery stores that meet that criteria
  • Draw circles of X mile radius around all the stores on the list (note: X should be bigger in rural areas); anyone who falls outside those boundaries is in a "food desert."

There's a phrase to describe the reports from the USDA and DC Hunger: "lying with statistics."

In the neighborhoods I'm thinking of, the Tenderloin and South of Market, public transit would involve taking a bus to the light rail, which would be a 45 minute endeavor each way.

I did a Google Earth search for "Safeway" (which I hear is a reasonable grocery store -- we don't have them in Georgia) and the farthest point away from them in those neighborhoods, which I eyeballed to be somewhere in the vicinity of Golden Gate Avenue and Market Street, is still within 1.2 miles. Admittedly, it'd be nice if they put another Safeway right near that intersection, and I'm sure there are hills to deal with, but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. (And that's just Safeways; there might be other closer grocery stores that I don't know about.)


IDK what's up with Google Earth, but that Safeway is not on Googlemaps and I know for a fact that there was no Safeway at Golden Gate and Market when I lived there in 2007. There was one at Market and Castro St., which is where I went.

Dude, there is no Safeway at Golden Gate and Market, unless it was built in the last few years.

That's not what I claimed, even if you pretended it was (twice). Check your reading comprehension skills.

What I actually said was that Golden Gate and Market is the farthest point away from any Safeway, but that even that intersection is still within 1.2 miles of one.

I also highlighted it in red in the quote above, in case you're still having trouble.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 04:17:17 PM by Jack »

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #90 on: September 20, 2013, 06:43:51 PM »
That about covers Peapod, you missed the "other grocery stores that do delivery" it seems, the ones where you call orders in. This service is VERY popular among Vancouver seniors through small local grocery stores, that give free delivery to boot.


You are incorrect. I did not "miss" other grocery delivery services. I researched them and they looked too expensive. Did I do exhaustive research? No. I'm not going to do that.

Another one nearby where people live charges $12.95. That is a lot of money for a poor person.

oldtoyota

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #91 on: September 20, 2013, 06:45:34 PM »
Since the original quote there wasn't directed at anyone in particular, who exactly is demonstrating this superior attitude?

Maybe there's a few people who have made 'poor people make poor choices' comments, but on the whole I think everyone has had mostly logical comments.

It appears the argument is that poor people make easy choices rather than intelligent ones which is why they can't live according to your specified limit, and justifies their current financial position,

It reminds me of a time straight after a natural disaster when a person from the rich side of town tried to justify why the poor side of town got hit and that they should have known the 1000 year event was going to happen, Little did they know where the next more destructive quake was going to hit.

It appears some people like to justify their perceived superior position by asserting that others just need to make better choices, The circumstances of the individual are irrelevant

As the mental health foundation says

Don't judge me until you know me.

Exactly. I am disappointed at the superior attitude I've seen in this thread.
I think saying things like that is a cop-out for not wanting to give a real response. 

Though maybe you're just tired of responding to the thread, which is also understandable.  In that case, just say so and leave.
I've given several responses. If you don't think they are "real" enough, that is your call to make. Have a good night.

Zikoris

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #92 on: September 20, 2013, 08:48:23 PM »
That about covers Peapod, you missed the "other grocery stores that do delivery" it seems, the ones where you call orders in. This service is VERY popular among Vancouver seniors through small local grocery stores, that give free delivery to boot.


You are incorrect. I did not "miss" other grocery delivery services. I researched them and they looked too expensive. Did I do exhaustive research? No. I'm not going to do that.

Another one nearby where people live charges $12.95. That is a lot of money for a poor person.

All your comments earlier were regarding the infeasibility of Peapod - internet access, etc, which would be a non-issue if you got delivery from somewhere that takes telephone orders.

In any case, $12.95(6.95-8.95 from Peapod or free for seniors from many stores) is not a lot of money if you spend it once or twice a month, and the alternative is buying fast food and over-inflated gas station - heck, you'd save a significant amount of money, plus be eating way better.

For what it's worth, I've lived the "poor, far from grocery stores" lifestyle, except on top of that I worked wacky hours that led to me needing to grocery shop around midnight more often than not, and my apartment had no kitchen. I didn't particularly care, just worked with what was available to me and found solutions that didn't involve eating processed shit.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 11:21:44 PM by Zikoris »

TrulyStashin

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2013, 06:23:39 AM »
Throughout this thread, runs the assumption that food stamps are used only by "poor" people who are chronically down and out and live off SNAP perpetually.

The reality is that the typical SNAP recipient depends on the aid for less than 2 years.   Last year, I read a study that found that 64% of all Americans depend on some form of aid at some point in their life:  unemployment, Medicaid, food stamps, welfare.

Sometimes people hit a rough patch in life and need help to get past it and rebuild.   I'm one such person and I'm grateful for the help that kept my life from falling completely to pieces so that I retained a foundation on which to rebuild.

Daleth

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2013, 09:03:28 AM »
In any case, $12.95(6.95-8.95 from Peapod or free for seniors from many stores) is not a lot of money if you spend it once or twice a month, and the alternative is buying fast food and over-inflated gas station - heck, you'd save a significant amount of money, plus be eating way better.

$14-$26 a month, you're suggesting, for people whose total food budget is $4.50/day? Let me do the math: 4.50 x 7 = $31.50 a week?!

They should spend as much as 6 days' worth of their food budget just having their food delivered?!

Think about it.

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #95 on: September 24, 2013, 09:11:46 AM »
Throughout this thread, runs the assumption that food stamps are used only by "poor" people who are chronically down and out and live off SNAP perpetually.

The reality is that the typical SNAP recipient depends on the aid for less than 2 years.   Last year, I read a study that found that 64% of all Americans depend on some form of aid at some point in their life:  unemployment, Medicaid, food stamps, welfare.

Sometimes people hit a rough patch in life and need help to get past it and rebuild.   I'm one such person and I'm grateful for the help that kept my life from falling completely to pieces so that I retained a foundation on which to rebuild.

Yes, and some people do really need and depend on it for a short time.  Then there are the people who make plenty of money but are still within the SNAP guidelines, so they receive benefits, though not the full amount. 

I also think having an asset tests discourages savings.  If I'm on SNAP, get a job, and can save a little bit of money; why would I?  Once I get over $2,000 I no longer get benefits, at least in my state.  Might as well spend all my money now and have free food later as opposed to saving money now and paying for my food later.


$14-$26 a month, you're suggesting, for people whose total food budget is $4.50/day? Let me do the math: 4.50 x 7 = $31.50 a week?!

They should spend as much as 6 days' worth of their food budget just having their food delivered?!

Think about it.
While I agree with the sentiment, I don't like the way of arguing.  This is how presidential candidates talk about such and such policy saving the debt 7 Trillion.  Well yea, if you extrapolate over 100 years, that's true.  But that's hardly a dent when it's 70B in one year, I digress.

I don't think your post every really made a point.  That's six days food budget over the course of a month, but you compare it to a time frame of a week (previous sentence).  I don't think you meant to do that, but that's the way it reads.  Over the course of a month, it's roughly 10-20% of food costs.  If it's saving them 20% on the food costs, it could be worth it (but i doubt it is).

Pick a time frame and stick to it.

Daley

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2013, 10:05:00 AM »
Throughout this thread, runs the assumption that food stamps are used only by "poor" people who are chronically down and out and live off SNAP perpetually.

The reality is that the typical SNAP recipient depends on the aid for less than 2 years.   Last year, I read a study that found that 64% of all Americans depend on some form of aid at some point in their life:  unemployment, Medicaid, food stamps, welfare.

Sometimes people hit a rough patch in life and need help to get past it and rebuild.   I'm one such person and I'm grateful for the help that kept my life from falling completely to pieces so that I retained a foundation on which to rebuild.

Hush now, TrulyStashin, that kind of talk upsets the petite bourgeoisie! The little darlings need to protect their illusions of lifelong ghetto welfare queens and mooching bums too lazy for work as overwhelming the ranks of those on assistance. Otherwise, they might have trouble sleeping at night while they declare social programs worthless, defend the act of gutting and abolishing those programs over any sort of progressive reform, and turn a blind eye to their own lack of charity in their lives. We don't want them to lose any sleep now, do we? After all, it takes a lot of work to preserve a fantasy world.

Don't worry guys, TrulyStashin' just misquoted those statistics. It's actually only 0.64% of the welfare recipients in this country. You can go back to sleep now.

This thread is almost as appalling as the homeless in the forest thread. I had avoided reading it suspecting as much, and boy was I not disappointed. Let them eat cake, indeed! I can't imagine the reactions this thing must cause with some of the new readers.

Unsurprising, there's a lot of familiar names in both threads (myself included, now). This raises the question of why some of you people are actually here in the first place? "Mustachianism" isn't about achieving ends to selfish means, it's about working towards making the world a better place for everybody, including your own family. There's an overwhelming current of social responsibility and a desire to making the world a better place to MMM's core messages when he's not talking about gearhead topics, yet there's an entire subset of this community that now ignores that thread or is quite possibly wholly oblivious to it. The opinions expressed by these individuals sadly embodies the very ugly stereotype of elitist WASP snobbery and self-entitlement that feeds class warfare and turns off the less fortunate to the idea of striving towards financial security in the first place. These are clearly not compatible schools of thought.

I don't disagree that people are entitled to their opinions, and should have the right to express them... but there's also a responsibility to the community that must not be ignored when you participate within a group or collective of others. Of course, I don't expect people to understand that when they think poor people are just being lazy and financially irresponsible when they choose to pick up a can of pork and beans with a loaf of white bread down at the corner 7-11 over walking the three miles round trip to a larger grocery store. We're all in this together, which means we can just as easily perpetuate and create the very societal ills that upset us if we're not careful and responsible with our own actions.

why all this judgement of "poor people". 

Doesn't matter whether we are rich or poor at the moment, the truth is we can try to control our circumstances, but there is every chance we're going to get hit by an unexpected event. Until we walk a mile in the shoes of the people we judge we really don't know the truth.

I suggest time is better spent volunteering rather than judging.

QFT

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. Treat others as you wish to be treated. These are not just tropes and cliché phrases - they're a succinct philosophy and way of gently walking through life, and it's a life of joy and wonder that no amount of money could ever purchase or secure.

Mega

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2013, 10:10:31 AM »
Honestly, as an outsider looking at USA, the food stamps program, and a couple of other programs, just don't make sense to me.

Why, if you are working 40 hours a week at minimum wage, does the government provide money for food? Isn't this just an indirect government subsidy for the businesses paying people minimum wage? Ditto for all of the other government subsidies (housing, medicare (?), etc).

Why not set the minimum wage to a reasonable level, and set it to automatically adjust with inflation?

Isn't the 1950s minimum wage something like $15 and hour, adjusted for inflation?

It's pretty simple. The minimum wage was never intended to guarantee a sufficient income for a family of four. Teens and young adults who live with their parents don't need as much money to survive as single people living on their own do. Single people living on their own need less money to survive than working parents do. Some people have a spouse or other family members who bring in enough cash to meet the family's basic needs, while others do not. Some people have found jobs that can pay for a full 40-hour schedule (or more), while others have not. Other people have already saved enough money to retire and are working less for a paycheck and more because they enjoy it. Given the fact that everyone's financial situation is different, the minimum wage is set at a relatively low level that's the same for everyone regardless of family situation or other factors. Programs like food stamps exist to fill in the gaps for families whose overall income ends up being too low (in the government's estimate) to purchase basic necessities.

A low minimum wage helps people who don't have many skills break into the workforce so that they have a chance at someday moving up to higher-value employment. Imagine if the minimum wage was $20/hr. This would be great for some people who are currently making less, but whose employers could afford to pay them more. Lots of businesses run on lower margins than that, and simply could not afford to pay their lowest-skilled workers that much. All the people whose skills are not worth $20/hr to any employer would never have a chance to have any employment and would be a permanent drain on social welfare programs.

You can choose to view the low minimum wage (and food stamps) as a subsidy for low-paying employers, or you can view the existence of the low-wage employment as a way to minimize the number of people who need to resort to programs like food stamps in the first place. In a system that has as many moving parts as the economy, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Well, you have many great points. There are many advantages and drawbacks to both systems.

TomatoLand is an excellent book on the economics of tomatoes and what happens to empolyees when there is no minimum wage / safety standards / accountability. I strongly recommend that you read it, as it really shaped my expectations for what minimum wage should be. For example, set the part time minimum wage HIGHER than the full time minimum wage, make the minimum wage apply to all people in the country, etc.

How many of us would actually be negatively impacted by an increase in the minimum wage? It isn't like we buy a lot of stuff new / pre-packaged.

Anyways, I know it won't get fixed, but I can always hope.

mpbaker22

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #98 on: September 24, 2013, 10:22:15 AM »
Throughout this thread, runs the assumption that food stamps are used only by "poor" people who are chronically down and out and live off SNAP perpetually.

The reality is that the typical SNAP recipient depends on the aid for less than 2 years.   Last year, I read a study that found that 64% of all Americans depend on some form of aid at some point in their life:  unemployment, Medicaid, food stamps, welfare.

Sometimes people hit a rough patch in life and need help to get past it and rebuild.   I'm one such person and I'm grateful for the help that kept my life from falling completely to pieces so that I retained a foundation on which to rebuild.

Hush now, TrulyStashin, that kind of talk upsets the petite bourgeoisie! The little darlings need to protect their illusions of lifelong ghetto welfare queens and mooching bums too lazy for work as overwhelming the ranks of those on assistance. Otherwise, they might have trouble sleeping at night while they declare social programs worthless, defend the act of gutting and abolishing those programs over any sort of progressive reform, and turn a blind eye to their own lack of charity in their lives. We don't want them to lose any sleep now, do we? After all, it takes a lot of work to preserve a fantasy world.

Don't worry guys, TrulyStashin' just misquoted those statistics. It's actually only 0.64% of the welfare recipients in this country. You can go back to sleep now.

This thread is almost as appalling as the homeless in the forest thread. I had avoided reading it suspecting as much, and boy was I not disappointed. Let them eat cake, indeed! I can't imagine the reactions this thing must cause with some of the new readers.

Unsurprising, there's a lot of familiar names in both threads (myself included, now). This raises the question of why some of you people are actually here in the first place? "Mustachianism" isn't about achieving ends to selfish means, it's about working towards making the world a better place for everybody, including your own family. There's an overwhelming current of social responsibility and a desire to making the world a better place to MMM's core messages when he's not talking about gearhead topics, yet there's an entire subset of this community that now ignores that thread or is quite possibly wholly oblivious to it. The opinions expressed by these individuals sadly embodies the very ugly stereotype of elitist WASP snobbery and self-entitlement that feeds class warfare and turns off the less fortunate to the idea of striving towards financial security in the first place. These are clearly not compatible schools of thought.

I don't disagree that people are entitled to their opinions, and should have the right to express them... but there's also a responsibility to the community that must not be ignored when you participate within a group or collective of others. Of course, I don't expect people to understand that when they think poor people are just being lazy and financially irresponsible when they choose to pick up a can of pork and beans with a loaf of white bread down at the corner 7-11 over walking the three miles round trip to a larger grocery store. We're all in this together, which means we can just as easily perpetuate and create the very societal ills that upset us if we're not careful and responsible with our own actions.

why all this judgement of "poor people". 

Doesn't matter whether we are rich or poor at the moment, the truth is we can try to control our circumstances, but there is every chance we're going to get hit by an unexpected event. Until we walk a mile in the shoes of the people we judge we really don't know the truth.

I suggest time is better spent volunteering rather than judging.

QFT

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. Treat others as you wish to be treated. These are not just tropes and cliché phrases - they're a succinct philosophy and way of gently walking through life, and it's a life of joy and wonder that no amount of money could ever purchase or secure.

I think the problem is you're ignoring the welfare queens that do exist.  Having toured section 8 residences, organized in ghetto areas, and created a blog about fixing such areas, I can say that the problems are far too complicated to condense in a little forum post, even in a longer one that you posted.

The facts I've seen in St. Louis are
1) welfare queens exist
2) inhumane slums exist
3) the biggest obstacle to both is corruption, and those who are corrupt cross party lines and have no clear political vision.  They're vision is for personal gain, not politics.

Again, you've ignored the arguments at hand, crafting your conclusions off of premises that are being debated.  Of course, your used your premises as fact.  We've already determined that a VERY VERY small number of people in cities have to resort to walking 3 miles roundtrip to grocery stores.

Quote
Of course, I don't expect people to understand that when they think poor people are just being lazy and financially irresponsible when they choose to pick up a can of pork and beans with a loaf of white bread down at the corner 7-11 over walking the three miles round trip to a larger grocery store.

This quote is a perfect example of your mis-representation of what everyone has actually been arguing on this thread.

No one has called these people lazy or financially irresponsible, and we haven't even determined these people need to walk 3 miles ...

Daley

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Re: Panera CEO and Food Stamps
« Reply #99 on: September 24, 2013, 10:34:37 AM »
This quote is a perfect example of your mis-representation of what everyone has actually been arguing on this thread.

Your entire reply illustrates that you only skimmed over what I wrote instead of actually reading it.

I also find it fascinating that you've taken offense to my post when I cited no names, and had not had you in mind as being one of the individuals I spoke of.