Author Topic: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned  (Read 5827 times)

Malcat

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2021, 09:29:14 AM »
Not surprised at all - just disappointed.

Eh, no point in being disappointed in basic, fundamental human behaviours.

I know you put a lot of effort into advocating against judging high earning, high spenders, but you're just asking for it by coming into a schadenfreude humour section of the forum and getting bent out of shape about people having their schadenfreude fun.

Also, I personally think you're just frankly wrong on the front that it doesn't matter how it affects the person.

If someone steals my lunch at work and I can easily buy one from the restaurant downstairs, that is objectively less tragic than if someone steals the lunch of a single mom who can barely afford food.

The crime is the same, but NO ONE should feel as bad for me, who is mildly inconvenienced, as they should for someone who's wellbeing is significantly affected by the same crime.

If that's genuinely your morality, I seriously question your humanity.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2021, 10:08:25 AM »
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If someone steals my lunch at work and I can easily buy one from the restaurant downstairs, that is objectively less tragic than if someone steals the lunch of a single mom who can barely afford food.

The crime is the same, but NO ONE should feel as bad for me, who is mildly inconvenienced, as they should for someone who's wellbeing is significantly affected by the same crime.

Right, but you're comparing two different degrees of sympathy. I'd still feel sympathy for both people.

In this thread people are saying that because someone stole the lunch of a rich billionaire, it's somehow worth no sympathy at all - and in fact worth judgment. It's victim blaming.

I find the whole concept of schadenfreude (ie this sub forum) puzzling and tragic actually. You shouldn't have to specifically point out others' misfortune in order to be happy with your worldview.

charis

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2021, 10:54:58 AM »
The poster who had no sympathy pointed out the reasoning - a situation that can be easily remedied by virtue of one's great wealth does not require or lend itself to sympathy.  Yes, anyone who is taken advantage of should not stand for it and I hope they don't, as I wouldn't in their shoes. But are they sympathetic characters? No.

I've noticed that you frequently try to point out in this forum that someone criticizing another's financial decisions is done to feel happy with one's own worldview or different financial decisions.  Why/how do you think that is the case?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2021, 11:09:45 AM »
That's like saying if someone scratches my car it should not engender any sympathy because, honestly, it's not that hard to fix up a scratch or, if it's a bad one, to get insurance to fix it up. But I'd still feel sympathy for someone whose car was scratched by a bad parker. Even if I knew the person whose car it was could fix it up with negligible financial impact.

Also, even if I grant that something is worth literally no sympathy at all, that doesn't mean that the person to whom it happens is an unsympathetic character worthy of derision. If someone driving a Rolls Royce has her car scratched does that prima facie mean she is an unsympathetic character?

I am fine with judging others' financial decisions (to an extent, where justified), but I don't see the point of the "ha ha" personalised pointing and laughing that predominates in this sub-forum - to me it seems to serve only one purpose and that is to create an "other". It's de-humanizing, and while we all do things that de-humanize others from time to time, to relish in it is rather strange.

Malcat

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2021, 12:36:36 PM »
Quote
If someone steals my lunch at work and I can easily buy one from the restaurant downstairs, that is objectively less tragic than if someone steals the lunch of a single mom who can barely afford food.

The crime is the same, but NO ONE should feel as bad for me, who is mildly inconvenienced, as they should for someone who's wellbeing is significantly affected by the same crime.

Right, but you're comparing two different degrees of sympathy. I'd still feel sympathy for both people.

In this thread people are saying that because someone stole the lunch of a rich billionaire, it's somehow worth no sympathy at all - and in fact worth judgment. It's victim blaming.

I find the whole concept of schadenfreude (ie this sub forum) puzzling and tragic actually. You shouldn't have to specifically point out others' misfortune in order to be happy with your worldview.

Then petition to have the section removed.
Or, just keep on being bothered by it, up to you I suppose.

charis

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2021, 01:24:09 PM »
Also, even if I grant that something is worth literally no sympathy at all, that doesn't mean that the person to whom it happens is an unsympathetic character worthy of derision. If someone driving a Rolls Royce has her car scratched does that prima facie mean she is an unsympathetic character?

Yes, if based on that criteria.  If she has cancer or her spouse just ran off with neighbor, I'm sympathetic.  But that's not what we are doing here.  I don't have sympathy for anyone getting a scratch on their car, as it happens, it's a hunk of metal upon which scratches are inevitable. The fact that one spent a lot for the car doesn't change the equation.

I have friends with stupidly expensive cars and I still value their worth as people even though I think the purchase was silly.  This thought has no bearing on my happiness with my own choices.

BlueHouse

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2021, 04:25:15 PM »
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I could go on about how I feel about accumulators of this amount of wealth, but I will not, but I also have zero sympathy for them.

Why not?

Curious:  do you want to know why BB won't go on about their feelings?  Or why they have no sympathy for accumulators of wealth?

I will assume they are questioning why I have zero sympathy?  I will explain that...When someone is ultra rich and has millions of dollars of water damage to their property, its not a big deal. They can move to one of their other homes (with their butler, maids, nannies and servants) while the renovations, which cost less than .01% of their net worth, are completed. The average person who has significant water damage to their house, not including the mental impact, would be homeless or in severe debt.  Yes, there is insurance, but most water damage is not covered at 100% replacement cost, if at all, and would significantly impact an average persons life.  This is one little example of why I have no sympathy.

I didn't actually care to know why you have no sympathy.  I just asked you to clarify your statement.  I'll explain why...when someone has an abundance of opinions and judges others, what they think is not a big deal.  But when someone reserves judgement for things that really matter, then their opinion is all the more important to me. 

Just kidding!  Thought I'd have a little fun here.

PDXTabs

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2021, 05:22:00 PM »
Fairness doesn't depend on whether the aggrieved party can easily wear the loss.

If I steal an apple from a multinational corporation it's still stealing.

Well, that depends on the jurisdiction and how hungry you are:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36190557

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2021, 07:19:43 PM »
Also, even if I grant that something is worth literally no sympathy at all, that doesn't mean that the person to whom it happens is an unsympathetic character worthy of derision. If someone driving a Rolls Royce has her car scratched does that prima facie mean she is an unsympathetic character?

Yes, if based on that criteria.  If she has cancer or her spouse just ran off with neighbor, I'm sympathetic.  But that's not what we are doing here.  I don't have sympathy for anyone getting a scratch on their car, as it happens, it's a hunk of metal upon which scratches are inevitable. The fact that one spent a lot for the car doesn't change the equation.

I have friends with stupidly expensive cars and I still value their worth as people even though I think the purchase was silly.  This thought has no bearing on my happiness with my own choices.

I think if you have no sympathy for people's cars getting scratched at all (like as a general proposition) then I don't have an issue with that. You just don't care about cars! Or scratches.

But the analogy would be someone saying to a poor person "Eh, so your apartment has a few cracks in the walls - as long as it's not a safety defect then who cares." And I don't think the latter approach would be very common in this forum.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2021, 07:24:43 PM »
Quote
If someone steals my lunch at work and I can easily buy one from the restaurant downstairs, that is objectively less tragic than if someone steals the lunch of a single mom who can barely afford food.

The crime is the same, but NO ONE should feel as bad for me, who is mildly inconvenienced, as they should for someone who's wellbeing is significantly affected by the same crime.

Right, but you're comparing two different degrees of sympathy. I'd still feel sympathy for both people.

In this thread people are saying that because someone stole the lunch of a rich billionaire, it's somehow worth no sympathy at all - and in fact worth judgment. It's victim blaming.

I find the whole concept of schadenfreude (ie this sub forum) puzzling and tragic actually. You shouldn't have to specifically point out others' misfortune in order to be happy with your worldview.

Then petition to have the section removed.
Or, just keep on being bothered by it, up to you I suppose.

Or I could just say where I think it is appropriate that "othering" for its own sake is not very gracious. The whole point of a forum is to create discussion.

Some threads in this forum I quite like. Looking at genuinely bad financial choices which create no value for the purchaser and which are wilful or made from unjustifiable ignorance - well, it's kind of hard to resist criticising "clowns" in that context. So I don't think the sub-forum is entirely misguided.

Marley09

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2021, 07:08:58 AM »
That's like saying if someone scratches my car it should not engender any sympathy because, honestly, it's not that hard to fix up a scratch or, if it's a bad one, to get insurance to fix it up. But I'd still feel sympathy for someone whose car was scratched by a bad parker. Even if I knew the person whose car it was could fix it up with negligible financial impact.

Also, even if I grant that something is worth literally no sympathy at all, that doesn't mean that the person to whom it happens is an unsympathetic character worthy of derision. If someone driving a Rolls Royce has her car scratched does that prima facie mean she is an unsympathetic character?

I am fine with judging others' financial decisions (to an extent, where justified), but I don't see the point of the "ha ha" personalised pointing and laughing that predominates in this sub-forum - to me it seems to serve only one purpose and that is to create an "other". It's de-humanizing, and while we all do things that de-humanize others from time to time, to relish in it is rather strange.

Bloop- I don't feel that any part of my comment was "ha ha", it was a realistic view of how things in the world work. We differ vastly in opinion about the items you noted in this thread and I value that, I think that it is good to see the "other side" of the spectrum at times.  It may not change my opinion, but it shows me how others see the same situation.

Quoting another part of your replies:
Quote
Looking at genuinely bad financial choices which create no value for the purchaser and which are wilful or made from unjustifiable ignorance - well, it's kind of hard to resist criticising "clowns" in that context.

I feel that this lady in the article made a bad financial decision. Do you feel that the wealthy cannot make poor decisions which are willful or made from unjustifiable ignorance?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2021, 07:26:04 AM »
Anyone can make a bad financial decision, and the wealthy are not more immune than the poor.

If the sole criticism was along the lines of "who would buy a 7 figure apartment without having a lawyer look over the contract very carefully and/or without independent guidance about the integrity of the building" then I could probably stomach that...although we don't know all the facts, and it may be that there were misrepresentations or omissions by the builders.

charis

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2021, 10:51:17 AM »
@Bloop Bloop Reloaded

I don't agree that your example is analogous in equating a car with one's home. I do have more sympathy for someone who is poor and unable to pay their way out of unfortunate circumstances.  I think this is a fairly universal sentiment. A wealthy buyer can hire a lawyer and sue a contractor. A poor tenant has many fewer options.

iris lily

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2021, 10:06:05 AM »
I wish I could read this article but Iím not gonna jump through the hoops to do it. The title of this thread is hilarious anyway and it makes me laugh every time I read it.

Somehow Iíve gotten into brief YouTube videos from a guy who shows apartments for rent in New York City. Prices are dropping precipitously. There are spaces that actually attract me at current prices. There was a time where I couldnít imagine ever at any time paying New York City rental prices. Now, you can get a cute place for around $2000 a month. Granted itís tiny,But he shows that the neighborhoods are lively or at least they were once lively pre-Covid. It will be interesting to see what comes back.

What surprises me about these videos is when our tour guide is out on the street there are hardly any people. That doesnít seem normal to me for New York City? Is it?

Dollar Slice

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2021, 10:34:56 AM »
What surprises me about these videos is when our tour guide is out on the street there are hardly any people. That doesnít seem normal to me for New York City? Is it?

It really depends where and when they're filming. Residential neighborhood at 11AM on a Tuesday? Most people are doing work/school (whether at home or in person) and not on the street, there will be some people but not a ton. Residential area on a weekend or at 6PM will be fairly busy - people are living outside as much as possible with outdoor dining, parks, etc. to avoid COVIDy situations indoors, and they're not going out and taking the subway to other parts of the city as much.

Touristy neighborhoods, business/hotel districts, and nightlife areas - much of midtown/downtown Manhattan - are going to be much quieter than usual because there are few tourists, most offices are WFH, and nightlife is mostly shut down. Maybe some very wealthy neighborhoods are also quiet because half the people are in their vacation homes until the pandemic is over.

Dicey

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2021, 01:03:47 PM »
If they ever do another Occupy Wall Street protest... I think I know where it'll start next time.

There's nothing truly unique about this building though. The whole of Manhattan Island is like this. My company is headquartered in NYC and honestly every single one of our executives has that better-than-you-peons attitude in every townhall and meeting they hold for the company. They literally brag about how much better they are at running the company than the old management before the company moved the HQ to NYC. Like one specifically said they're just so much more business oriented in NYC and don't waste time trying to be nice to people, and he's announcing this to the whole company as one of the big benefits of NYC management. It's an evil city driven by nothing but money. Until they outlaw capitalism though, it's simply always going to be that way. The ultra-rich will always have cities to go to, even if NYC gets shut down some day.
What the absolute fuck? This dude apparently advocates outlawing capitalism and nobody raises an eyebrow?

Malcat

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2021, 01:09:48 PM »
If they ever do another Occupy Wall Street protest... I think I know where it'll start next time.

There's nothing truly unique about this building though. The whole of Manhattan Island is like this. My company is headquartered in NYC and honestly every single one of our executives has that better-than-you-peons attitude in every townhall and meeting they hold for the company. They literally brag about how much better they are at running the company than the old management before the company moved the HQ to NYC. Like one specifically said they're just so much more business oriented in NYC and don't waste time trying to be nice to people, and he's announcing this to the whole company as one of the big benefits of NYC management. It's an evil city driven by nothing but money. Until they outlaw capitalism though, it's simply always going to be that way. The ultra-rich will always have cities to go to, even if NYC gets shut down some day.
What the absolute fuck? This dude apparently advocates outlawing capitalism and nobody raises an eyebrow?

Because as a statement it's literal nonsense.

iris lily

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2021, 01:39:28 PM »
What surprises me about these videos is when our tour guide is out on the street there are hardly any people. That doesnít seem normal to me for New York City? Is it?

It really depends where and when they're filming. Residential neighborhood at 11AM on a Tuesday? Most people are doing work/school (whether at home or in person) and not on the street, there will be some people but not a ton. Residential area on a weekend or at 6PM will be fairly busy - people are living outside as much as possible with outdoor dining, parks, etc. to avoid COVIDy situations indoors, and they're not going out and taking the subway to other parts of the city as much.

Touristy neighborhoods, business/hotel districts, and nightlife areas - much of midtown/downtown Manhattan - are going to be much quieter than usual because there are few tourists, most offices are WFH, and nightlife is mostly shut down. Maybe some very wealthy neighborhoods are also quiet because half the people are in their vacation homes until the pandemic is over.

The last one he filmed was at 34th and Park Avenue. It looks like the Empire State building was very close. I was surprised to see a boarded up something in the background and I didnít know what that board up was, but man that did not look good in that neighborhood.

I think the apartment he was showing that day was a hair under $3000 a month and it was a large studio with two balconies, in an old building that interested me. doorman building with a lovely lobby. I would not live permanently in New York City but I think it might be fun to spend a year there at $2000 a month. But of course it wouldnít be any fun if the city is shut down so never mind.

Dollar Slice

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2021, 04:48:03 PM »
The last one he filmed was at 34th and Park Avenue. It looks like the Empire State building was very close. I was surprised to see a boarded up something in the background and I didnít know what that board up was, but man that did not look good in that neighborhood.

That explains it. 34th Street is the heart of the business district, and is generally heavy on the hotel/business/office traffic - it's emptied out a lot during the pandemic. To give you an idea, about 700,000 people live in midtown and downtown Manhattan (where the bulk of business/tourism happens). During normal times there are about 65 million tourists annually, almost all of which are spending the bulk of their time in midtown and downtown. Plus, 1.6 million people commute into Manhattan (again - during normal times) every day for work. So the actual number of people who live there are dwarfed by commuters and tourists, which have been decimated by the pandemic. Hence: 34th Street is relatively empty, and a lot of businesses are struggling, because they catered almost exclusively to high volumes of tourists or office workers.

The vast majority of New Yorkers live in more residential areas. Very few people want to live in midtown, it's not very pleasant and doesn't really cater to people who live there (it's all fast food and souvenir shops, but you'll struggle to find a decent grocery store). I live uptown, where there are tree-lined boulevards and big parks and cute neighborhood restaurants and stuff. Tourists never come here, except for the people who book airbnbs without understanding the concept of night and weekend subway schedules.

iris lily

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Re: Clowns sad that clown tower not as awesome as initially envisioned
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2021, 06:12:15 PM »
The last one he filmed was at 34th and Park Avenue. It looks like the Empire State building was very close. I was surprised to see a boarded up something in the background and I didnít know what that board up was, but man that did not look good in that neighborhood.

That explains it. 34th Street is the heart of the business district, and is generally heavy on the hotel/business/office traffic - it's emptied out a lot during the pandemic. To give you an idea, about 700,000 people live in midtown and downtown Manhattan (where the bulk of business/tourism happens). During normal times there are about 65 million tourists annually, almost all of which are spending the bulk of their time in midtown and downtown. Plus, 1.6 million people commute into Manhattan (again - during normal times) every day for work. So the actual number of people who live there are dwarfed by commuters and tourists, which have been decimated by the pandemic. Hence: 34th Street is relatively empty, and a lot of businesses are struggling, because they catered almost exclusively to high volumes of tourists or office workers.

The vast majority of New Yorkers live in more residential areas. Very few people want to live in midtown, it's not very pleasant and doesn't really cater to people who live there (it's all fast food and souvenir shops, but you'll struggle to find a decent grocery store). I live uptown, where there are tree-lined boulevards and big parks and cute neighborhood restaurants and stuff. Tourists never come here, except for the people who book airbnbs without understanding the concept of night and weekend subway schedules.

Aha! Thanks.