Overheard on Facebook

[marielle]

I joined a "high-end yardsale" group, and it is a goldmine of shameful consumerism! The minimum price to post is $200, which seems kind of arbitrary, but whatever. Today I saw a post for a pair of Adidas sneakers for $600. I looked them up (Yeezy is the model), and they are $1400 on jet.com. WTF? This particular pair is also size 6 men's. Good luck with that, sir.

A few people posted pictures of their recent receipts, I guess to prove that the item is not stolen or fake, but really just shows what a dumbass the person is. One showed that someone paid $3250 for a purse. She wanted $2500 for the thing. Hahahahahahaha!

I so much want to troll these poor/soon to be poor folks, but I would probably get banned from the page. How can people not see that there is no pair of shoes or piece of leather on earth that is worth that much of their hard-earned cash? Or see that the difference between the price of these "luxury" goods and regular goods is a blatant ripoff going directly to the shareholders of the corporations? How can these companies possibly be in business selling at those prices?

Wow! It would be really hard to bite my tongue. I guess those things are worth the money (to them) because they boost their self esteem and self worth in the eyes of others.

[joleran]

I so much want to troll these poor/soon to be poor folks, but I would probably get banned from the page. How can people not see that there is no pair of shoes or piece of leather on earth that is worth that much of their hard-earned cash? Or see that the difference between the price of these "luxury" goods and regular goods is a blatant ripoff going directly to the shareholders of the corporations? How can these companies possibly be in business selling at those prices?

All just status symbols and/or art.  Some paint on a canvas is worth maybe $50 in materials retail, but if it's the right paint from the right person, it becomes worth millions.

[JordanOfGilead]

I joined a "high-end yardsale" group, and it is a goldmine of shameful consumerism! The minimum price to post is $200, which seems kind of arbitrary, but whatever. Today I saw a post for a pair of Adidas sneakers for $600. I looked them up (Yeezy is the model), and they are $1400 on jet.com. WTF? This particular pair is also size 6 men's. Good luck with that, sir.

A few people posted pictures of their recent receipts, I guess to prove that the item is not stolen or fake, but really just shows what a dumbass the person is. One showed that someone paid $3250 for a purse. She wanted $2500 for the thing. Hahahahahahaha!

I so much want to troll these poor/soon to be poor folks, but I would probably get banned from the page. How can people not see that there is no pair of shoes or piece of leather on earth that is worth that much of their hard-earned cash? Or see that the difference between the price of these "luxury" goods and regular goods is a blatant ripoff going directly to the shareholders of the corporations? How can these companies possibly be in business selling at those prices?

The thing that I have a hard time understanding is that the actual build quality on a lot of these "luxury" items is straight up garbage. Put them through any real use and they fall apart. They are solely designed to look pretty.

[mm1970]

We just replaced ours. Was 17-18 years old. Looked good. Smelled fine. Was lumpy. New mattress helps us sleep REALLY well. No more morning aches.

Same here.  New one much more comfy.  But memory foam.  And I'm at the age where...I get hot.  I end up on the couch a lot.

[trashmanz]

I joined a "high-end yardsale" group

Therein lies your first mistake :P

[mm1970]

I joined a "high-end yardsale" group, and it is a goldmine of shameful consumerism! The minimum price to post is $200, which seems kind of arbitrary, but whatever. Today I saw a post for a pair of Adidas sneakers for $600. I looked them up (Yeezy is the model), and they are $1400 on jet.com. WTF? This particular pair is also size 6 men's. Good luck with that, sir.

A few people posted pictures of their recent receipts, I guess to prove that the item is not stolen or fake, but really just shows what a dumbass the person is. One showed that someone paid $3250 for a purse. She wanted $2500 for the thing. Hahahahahahaha!

I so much want to troll these poor/soon to be poor folks, but I would probably get banned from the page. How can people not see that there is no pair of shoes or piece of leather on earth that is worth that much of their hard-earned cash? Or see that the difference between the price of these "luxury" goods and regular goods is a blatant ripoff going directly to the shareholders of the corporations? How can these companies possibly be in business selling at those prices?

Ha ha.  I spent some time at the "premium outlets" near our recent vacation spot, because we had 4 hours in between hotels.  And: one of my kid needed new pants.  Anyway, said kid got new pants and shoes.  Other kid got socks.  Here's how the rest of the trip went:

me: hey, look, Kate Spade!  Maybe I should get myself a new purse.  (*snicker*)
me: I could use some new leggings.  (My pants were falling down because I lost a few "stomach flu" pounds.)  Hubs: that store over there has leggings.  Sign says "Buy 2 get 1 free."  First tag: $48.  Nope.  I'll just keep hiking up my pants for 2 days till I get home.

me: I forgot to bring my comb and a razor (we left rushed because of the oncoming Lucifer).  Drug store: $3.69 for a comb and $5 for razors.  I used my hubby's brush and just decided to shave a few days later when I got home

hubby: on drive home, Waze tries to direct us to the 73.  I look it up, $7.61, which will save us approximately 11 minutes travel time out of 3 to 3.5 hours.  Nope. Sorry.

[mm1970]

So, there's a woman I follow on FB.  I've never met her.  She was a Beachbody coach.  She was fit and funny and had good recipes. 

Over the years she sold her business that she'd owned for years (a small vo-tech business) to focus on BB.  She posted lots of uplifting new-agey things sometimes too.  Anyway, she quit BB (too saturated, had a hard time maintaining income), and moved on to some other health based MLM.

Anyway, yesterday she posts some "Cashflow Quadrant" thing that I think came from "Rich Dad, Poor Dad".  Talking about how WEALTH is derived from investing and being a business owner, but not from being an employee or self-employed.  Some exerpts:

"Ever wonder why we are conditioned from an early age to go to college and get a good JOB while very little wealth is derived from that box?"

"If we are every going to be wealthy, we have to think like wealthy people do.  That means replacing old, limiting beliefs with more effective and useful ones.  We have to get CRYSTAL CLEAR on our vision to create a better future, to create success and be free!  We have to COMMIT to move over from the left side of the quadrant to the right side of the quadrant as quick as possible."

"I'm excited to have a system that my team and I are using to leverage our time and money to build true time and financial freedom.  Do you?"


Now.  While I don't disagree with all the points (naturally, investing is good.  Being a business owner can also be good, depending on the person, business, and industry).  One way to *become* an investor is to work a JOB and INVEST.

I did not respond to the post, but here's the funniest thing.  When I went to look it up again, the first thing that popped up was her personal page.  This is on her business page.

Her personal page?  Guess who just started a new JOB this morning - like a regular 9-to-5 working for someone else job?  Yeah.

Color me surprised.  Maybe MLMs don't work for most?

[horsepoor]

I joined a "high-end yardsale" group

Therein lies your first mistake :P

I disagree. Sounds like a goldmine for this thread.

Not on Facebook, but on a horse forum, someone posted a poll on how much people are budgeting *per horse* annually for a certain level of showing and training/lessons.  One option was >$45,000, and like 6 people have chosen that option.  OMG.

[VeggieTable]

Her personal page?  Guess who just started a new JOB this morning - like a regular 9-to-5 working for someone else job?  Yeah.

Color me surprised.  Maybe MLMs don't work for most?

All of the people I know who are into MLMs (they always seem to be into several) still have full-time jobs.  Gee...guess begging your friends to buy your lame product isn't as lucrative as you though!

[VeggieTable]

Someone I know on FB just posted a meme that says the following:

"Saving 20-odd dollars a week by not going to Dunkin Donuts for coffee isn't going to help when the working poor's real problem is worrying about being able to still make rent if they miss work due to the flu, so let's stop pretending like this "junior piggyback savers/guilt the poor out of simple comforts" technique is a viable solution to the problem of stagnating wages and skyrocketing living cost."

"Also, sometimes that cup of coffee from Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts is the best goddamn part of the day. The poor deserve small pleasures, too."

Yeah...except $80/month, or $960/year, is not a small pleasure. It makes me so mad to see people post things like this. I worry it'll make someone else think cutting back on that $4/day (not even including the gas/time costs to stop and buy it) isn't worth it and won't make a difference. Plus perpetuating the myth that they only way to live a good life is by spending money. I'm not a coffee drinker, but I do like Diet Coke - sometimes the only way I could get through the day without buying a DC at work when I felt like I *deserved* it was by knowing that I could drink it much cheaper at home. A $1.50 2L bottle could last me whole week, but if I bought a can at work, that would've been $0.75/day.

[Vindicated]

Yeah...except $80/month, or $960/year, is not a small pleasure. It makes me so mad to see people post things like this. I worry it'll make someone else think cutting back on that $4/day (not even including the gas/time costs to stop and buy it) isn't worth it and won't make a difference. Plus perpetuating the myth that they only way to live a good life is by spending money.

You should really comment that making coffee at home for $100/yr vs spending $1000/yr ($900 savings) compounds to $13,300 at 7% over 10 years.  If you stop contributing your $900/yr at that point, the interest on the savings (still 7%) will make you $900/yr.  So, not buying something for 10 yrs can make you enough interest on year 11 that you could buy that coffee again for the rest of your life virtually "free".

At least this is the logic I try to use with my friends and family, but they don't seem to be listening.

[merula]

Someone I know on FB just posted a meme that says the following:

"Saving 20-odd dollars a week by not going to Dunkin Donuts for coffee isn't going to help when the working poor's real problem is worrying about being able to still make rent if they miss work due to the flu, so let's stop pretending like this "junior piggyback savers/guilt the poor out of simple comforts" technique is a viable solution to the problem of stagnating wages and skyrocketing living cost."

"Also, sometimes that cup of coffee from Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts is the best goddamn part of the day. The poor deserve small pleasures, too."

Yeah...except $80/month, or $960/year, is not a small pleasure. It makes me so mad to see people post things like this. I worry it'll make someone else think cutting back on that $4/day (not even including the gas/time costs to stop and buy it) isn't worth it and won't make a difference. Plus perpetuating the myth that they only way to live a good life is by spending money. I'm not a coffee drinker, but I do like Diet Coke - sometimes the only way I could get through the day without buying a DC at work when I felt like I *deserved* it was by knowing that I could drink it much cheaper at home. A $1.50 2L bottle could last me whole week, but if I bought a can at work, that would've been $0.75/day.

OMFG, IS THAT PIECE OF GARBAGE GOING AROUND AGAIN?!?!!?

See, here's the thing. $1040/year ($20/week times 52 weeks), post-tax, is $1,286 pre-tax (7.65% SSA, 1.45% Medicare, 10% federal). That, ladies and gentlemen, is more than TWO WEEKS PAY, 40 hours/week, $15/hour. That's paid sick leave. That's paid vacation. That's "take time off to interview for a better job" money.

Everyone "deserves" small pleasures, sure. When your indulgence is more than two weeks' pay per year, that is no longer a "small pleasure".

The math doesn't lie.

[barbaz]

And even if you are not paid fairly and deserve more, this does not free you from being responsible with the money you have.

It's like saying "I worked so hard, I deserve not having to take a shower"

[Kitsune]

And even if you are not paid fairly and deserve more, this does not free you from being responsible with the money you have.

It's like saying "I worked so hard, I deserve not having to take a shower"

This. Like, even if the system is a mess and needs improving, what's wrong with doing what you can to succeed/survive in the system that you're stuck in? Isn't doing better preferable, no matter how messed up the system is?

[BabyShark]

And even if you are not paid fairly and deserve more, this does not free you from being responsible with the money you have.

It's like saying "I worked so hard, I deserve not having to take a shower"

This. Like, even if the system is a mess and needs improving, what's wrong with doing what you can to succeed/survive in the system that you're stuck in? Isn't doing better preferable, no matter how messed up the system is?

Because it removes agency. "it's not my fault I can't save money, it's everybody else's."  I saw the meme the other day and all of my most intelligent friends were falling over themselves about how it is SO TRUE.

[Just Joe]

"Ever wonder why we are conditioned from an early age to go to college and get a good JOB while very little wealth is derived from that box?"

"If we are every going to be wealthy, we have to think like wealthy people do.  That means replacing old, limiting beliefs with more effective and useful ones.  We have to get CRYSTAL CLEAR on our vision to create a better future, to create success and be free!  We have to COMMIT to move over from the left side of the quadrant to the right side of the quadrant as quick as possible."

"I'm excited to have a system that my team and I are using to leverage our time and money to build true time and financial freedom.  Do you?"

That's such a vague description of what a person needs to do! It says nothing with the maximum number of words. Imagine trying to get a start in adult life without a wise elder coaching you a little and noticing a stream of articles or ads like this. It would be so frustrating!

It is harder to make a living as an employee if you find yourself working for some stingy employer where the financial reward stays with the top level management and everyone else gets lip service. Everyone ought to work for one of those companies at least once.

"I know we had the best year ever in the history of the company on the sweat and tears of your department but we aren't giving out bonuses or raises at this time..." (silently vowing to start your new job search right then and there...)

[infogoon]

Someone in a message thread on the "Trump Surge" in stock prices since the election said that it's proof that the system is rigged to only benefit the "corporate masters" and the 1%.

I amended it to include the corporate masters, the 1%, and the millions of Americans hoping to retire with the contents of their 401k, and was told that I just don't get it.

[cheapass]

Someone in a message thread on the "Trump Surge" in stock prices since the election said that it's proof that the system is rigged to only benefit the "corporate masters" and the 1%.

I amended it to include the corporate masters, the 1%, and the millions of Americans hoping to retire with the contents of their 401k, and was told that I just don't get it.

401K?? That's just wall street stealin' yer money! I've got a good ol' fashioned pension! (doesn't realize that pensions are invested are subject to the same stock market performance for their solvency)

[mm1970]

"Ever wonder why we are conditioned from an early age to go to college and get a good JOB while very little wealth is derived from that box?"

"If we are every going to be wealthy, we have to think like wealthy people do.  That means replacing old, limiting beliefs with more effective and useful ones.  We have to get CRYSTAL CLEAR on our vision to create a better future, to create success and be free!  We have to COMMIT to move over from the left side of the quadrant to the right side of the quadrant as quick as possible."

"I'm excited to have a system that my team and I are using to leverage our time and money to build true time and financial freedom.  Do you?"

That's such a vague description of what a person needs to do! It says nothing with the maximum number of words. Imagine trying to get a start in adult life without a wise elder coaching you a little and noticing a stream of articles or ads like this. It would be so frustrating!

It is harder to make a living as an employee if you find yourself working for some stingy employer where the financial reward stays with the top level management and everyone else gets lip service. Everyone ought to work for one of those companies at least once.

"I know we had the best year ever in the history of the company on the sweat and tears of your department but we aren't giving out bonuses or raises at this time..." (silently vowing to start your new job search right then and there...)

It's a lot of words to say nothing, true.  I think that's the goal.  A lot of MLMs have "scripts" that tug on your heart, and inspire you, but give no real details.  "Join my team to get the details!"

[VeggieTable]

And even if you are not paid fairly and deserve more, this does not free you from being responsible with the money you have.

It's like saying "I worked so hard, I deserve not having to take a shower"

This. Like, even if the system is a mess and needs improving, what's wrong with doing what you can to succeed/survive in the system that you're stuck in? Isn't doing better preferable, no matter how messed up the system is?

Because it removes agency. "it's not my fault I can't save money, it's everybody else's."  I saw the meme the other day and all of my most intelligent friends were falling over themselves about how it is SO TRUE.

Seriously. The person who posted this is a very smart guy & I was really surprised to see him posting such a piece of garbage. It took me mere seconds to figure out how much money that is per year, and hence what a waste it is.
 

OMFG, IS THAT PIECE OF GARBAGE GOING AROUND AGAIN?!?!!?

See, here's the thing. $1040/year ($20/week times 52 weeks), post-tax, is $1,286 pre-tax (7.65% SSA, 1.45% Medicare, 10% federal). That, ladies and gentlemen, is more than TWO WEEKS PAY, 40 hours/week, $15/hour. That's paid sick leave. That's paid vacation. That's "take time off to interview for a better job" money.

Everyone "deserves" small pleasures, sure. When your indulgence is more than two weeks' pay per year, that is no longer a "small pleasure".

The math doesn't lie.

This is what made me so mad. For someone with a well-paying job, $20/week is negligible. For someone working at Walmart making $9.50/hr, 30 hrs a week, $20/week on coffee works out to almost one month's pay! How is that a "small pleasure"?  If you insist on buying coffee every day instead of making it at home, at least get it for $1 from McDonald's.

[ringer707]

Friend from college has frequently posted lamenting the fact that he can't get a good job/can't figure out what he wants to do. He's been waiting tables pretty much since graduation 6 years ago I think. He got a pretty good degree (in my opinion)- Communications (all of my other friends with degrees in that field from college got decent jobs). He at one time posted he was going to go back and get ANOTHER bachelor's degree in some science-field from a liberal arts college, but I don't think that ever panned out.

Well he posted recently about how he was going to change everything this year and really get things moving in his career no matter what. Good for him. Today he post's he is now a proud distributor of this year's hottest (multi-level marketing scheme). Where is the facepalm emoji? My heart hurts for him. He is such a nice guy.


In other Facebook/MLM news, a friend who has been doing Pure Romance parties for a long time posted the other day that she was getting out of it and selling off all her stock for what she paid. She said she's spent thousands of dollars on products and has only made a few hundred. Shocker.

[JAYSLOL]

Someone on the FB buy and sell group posted a 2015 Hyundai Elantra for sale, and down in the comments left this gem

"Amazing car. LOVE it!!! Would far rather keep this than the other but the other has more negative equity... life decisions. Blah."

[LadyStache in Baja]

Someone on the FB buy and sell group posted a 2015 Hyundai Elantra for sale, and down in the comments left this gem

"Amazing car. LOVE it!!! Would far rather keep this than the other but the other has more negative equity... life decisions. Blah."

this is priceless

[frugalnacho]

If this even sells for what they're listing for, that's a $1450 loss for a 5-month old couch that was "barely sat on". Maybe more if it was on credit?

Why did you buy it if it was barely sat on...

Maybe they mean that although they sat on it every day, they only sat on the very edge?

All they watch are suspense movies so they only need the edge of their seat.

[dragoncar]

If this even sells for what they're listing for, that's a $1450 loss for a 5-month old couch that was "barely sat on". Maybe more if it was on credit?

Why did you buy it if it was barely sat on...

Maybe they mean that although they sat on it every day, they only sat on the very edge?

All they watch are suspense movies so they only need the edge of their seat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-j2NVdhlfo

[Metric Mouse]

If this even sells for what they're listing for, that's a $1450 loss for a 5-month old couch that was "barely sat on". Maybe more if it was on credit?

Why did you buy it if it was barely sat on...

Maybe they mean that although they sat on it every day, they only sat on the very edge?

All they watch are suspense movies so they only need the edge of their seat.

I can think of several other things to do with a couch that does not involve sitting on it very much.

[horsepoor]

Again, not Facebook, but on the interwebz.  I'm considering going to look at a retired racehorse that is for sale on Craigslist for $1,500.  This would be a project and I'd hope to upgrade his situation and sell him for $5,000-10,000 within a year or so.  Anyway, I got his registered name last night and started rooting around in racehorse records.  He has a famous daddy whose stud fee is currently $100,000.  This horse was sold at auction as a yearling for $235,000, and won $155,000 over 19 races and 5 years, which probably didn't pay for his training and racing expenses, much less initial purchase price. He raced at nicer tracks like Santa Anita as recently as last summer, then somehow ended up in eastern Idaho and is now possibly worth $1,500 if he's not physically wrecked.  This is by no means an unusual trajectory for a race horse, and it's amazing that the business keeps going.

[With This Herring]

Just curious:  How do you "upgrade" a retired racehorse to make him worth more?  Would you just be buying him as a riding horse, improving his manners, and then selling him as a stud?

[former player]

Just curious:  How do you "upgrade" a retired racehorse to make him worth more?  Would you just be buying him as a riding horse, improving his manners, and then selling him as a stud?

Get him fit and start him on the way to being a competition horse in dressage, showjumping or three day eventing, depending on his talents and inclinations.  A year of solid work by an expert would be enough to put him into starter-level competitions and show his potential.

[horsepoor]

Just curious:  How do you "upgrade" a retired racehorse to make him worth more?  Would you just be buying him as a riding horse, improving his manners, and then selling him as a stud?

Get him fit and start him on the way to being a competition horse in dressage, showjumping or three day eventing, depending on his talents and inclinations.  A year of solid work by an expert would be enough to put him into starter-level competitions and show his potential.

Yep.  Their racing careers are usually over when they are 4-7 years old, and if they don't have chronic injuries, they can be excellent riding horses for another decade or more.  When I say "upgrade" this horse is not in great physical condition right now, and is in danger of ending up in a bad situation.  If I can give him some marketable skills, he can have a cushy life as a lower-level competition and pleasure riding horse.  The $1,500 price bracket is a dangerous place for a horse because at that price point, things like being ridden to death on a hunting trip, and then abandoned in the wilderness, or just not receiving proper feed and veterinary care tend to happen.

[Inaya]

If this even sells for what they're listing for, that's a $1450 loss for a 5-month old couch that was "barely sat on". Maybe more if it was on credit?

Why did you buy it if it was barely sat on...

Maybe they mean that although they sat on it every day, they only sat on the very edge?

All they watch are suspense movies so they only need the edge of their seat.

I can think of several other things to do with a couch that does not involve sitting on it very much.

Better get the stains out before you try to sell it.

[swashbucklinstache]

And even if you are not paid fairly and deserve more, this does not free you from being responsible with the money you have.

It's like saying "I worked so hard, I deserve not having to take a shower"

This. Like, even if the system is a mess and needs improving, what's wrong with doing what you can to succeed/survive in the system that you're stuck in? Isn't doing better preferable, no matter how messed up the system is?

Because it removes agency. "it's not my fault I can't save money, it's everybody else's."  I saw the meme the other day and all of my most intelligent friends were falling over themselves about how it is SO TRUE.

Seriously. The person who posted this is a very smart guy & I was really surprised to see him posting such a piece of garbage. It took me mere seconds to figure out how much money that is per year, and hence what a waste it is.
 

OMFG, IS THAT PIECE OF GARBAGE GOING AROUND AGAIN?!?!!?

See, here's the thing. $1040/year ($20/week times 52 weeks), post-tax, is $1,286 pre-tax (7.65% SSA, 1.45% Medicare, 10% federal). That, ladies and gentlemen, is more than TWO WEEKS PAY, 40 hours/week, $15/hour. That's paid sick leave. That's paid vacation. That's "take time off to interview for a better job" money.

Everyone "deserves" small pleasures, sure. When your indulgence is more than two weeks' pay per year, that is no longer a "small pleasure".

The math doesn't lie.

This is what made me so mad. For someone with a well-paying job, $20/week is negligible. For someone working at Walmart making $9.50/hr, 30 hrs a week, $20/week on coffee works out to almost one month's pay! How is that a "small pleasure"?  If you insist on buying coffee every day instead of making it at home, at least get it for $1 from McDonald's.

I think we're all on the same page here, but there is something to be said about the difference between a micro/macro view of the particular situation that sometimes I think people miss on here. I don't mean you in this situation, but it can be an important distinction to make. Like, for any given individual in this situation certainly they should be mustachian, but that doesn't prevent me from lamenting that people are put in the position where a cup of coffee a day takes 2 weeks worth of pay.

People also sometimes don't look at the other side of the coin on this - 5 or 10 years from now that (exact quality/brand etc.) cup of coffee could easily be 4 or 6 weeks worth of pay for this bracket in this country, especially in a resource constrained global economy. That cuts both ways... definitely should be mustachian in that situation, but it's also a much tougher macro situation.

Blah. I can tell you guys get this, but i'm feeling pessimistic about my country/world today. Hopefully it goes the other way and we all get 70 degree sunshine days every day with free robot-grown food with no required jobs at all! :)

[SwordGuy]

Like, for any given individual in this situation certainly they should be mustachian, but that doesn't prevent me from lamenting that people are put in the position where a cup of coffee a day takes 2 weeks worth of pay.

Huh???

It doesn't cost anyone in this country 2 weeks pay for a cup of coffee a day!

It costs 2 weeks pay to cover for someone to start a business, build a building and equip it, hire and train people to make the coffee, and then pay them to do the work of making coffee for them and for them to pocket a profit.

You can add all the fancy-pants words around that activity you want, but it doesn't change the fact that most people cannot afford to hire an army of cooks and servants.

[Metric Mouse]

If this even sells for what they're listing for, that's a $1450 loss for a 5-month old couch that was "barely sat on". Maybe more if it was on credit?

Why did you buy it if it was barely sat on...

Maybe they mean that although they sat on it every day, they only sat on the very edge?

All they watch are suspense movies so they only need the edge of their seat.

I can think of several other things to do with a couch that does not involve sitting on it very much.

Better get the stains out before you try to sell it.

I may have to start a thread on the most mustacheian way to do this. Would it be better to ask in Ask a Mustachian or the Mustachian and Single threads?

[Ayanka]

Febreeze apparently does wonders with food stains so maybe try that one for the stains on the couch?

[swashbucklinstache]

Like, for any given individual in this situation certainly they should be mustachian, but that doesn't prevent me from lamenting that people are put in the position where a cup of coffee a day takes 2 weeks worth of pay.

Huh???

It doesn't cost anyone in this country 2 weeks pay for a cup of coffee a day!

It costs 2 weeks pay to cover for someone to start a business, build a building and equip it, hire and train people to make the coffee, and then pay them to do the work of making coffee for them and for them to pocket a profit.

You can add all the fancy-pants words around that activity you want, but it doesn't change the fact that most people cannot afford to hire an army of cooks and servants.

All that you say is immediately true for this example, and certainly applicable to many others, including more extreme examples as well. Stepping away from this example, however, I mean it simply to mean that it may make a great society/country where it costs so much for something so simple, from an effective efficiency of production standpoint. Not that any individual actors aren't making rational decisions in this situation (e.g. of course it is fair for the coffee shop owner to charge those prices).

But, the overall point of my post was to gently say out loud that while there are many things that individuals can do to make their own lives better that doesn't mean we should forget about macro level decisions that affect these people, especially when projecting into the future.

It's not all doom and gloom of course, 15 years ago it would have taken years of work to afford a computer as powerful as the (cheap) one I'm typing into now! And, everyone being mustachian (might) lead to a tremendous increase in stability and lowering of downside business/research risk that could easily increase overall productive output by an insane amount. That alone might put the '2 weeks for some coffee' discussion in the past. Hopefully we'll find out one day :). I'm personally very optimistic about this but like talking about the downside potential as a thought exercise.

{ending that thought but extending it in a rambly stream of thoughts with no real direction}

A few extreme thought lines - what if we could magically force there to be no war nor need for war? I'm thinking in this magical world all of those smart people and resources that currently go into war could be redirected to more productive things, maybe even find a way to make coffee 50% cheaper. Would that mean the everyday man could afford coffee for less than 2 weeks pay? Maybe, maybe not, depending on what school of economics you subscribe to. Should it? Does it have to come back to the question of what is "fair" in a capitalist world? Nevertheless it seems clear that a tremendous amount of human effort and in the developed world and natural resources across it go into things that don't directly make humanity better, even if they currently do from the "net" perspective. e.g. say we have to make such and such missile and train people to fly jets to keep us from going backward via huge wars. It's okay for that fact to make someone sad.

I guess I'm thinking of the endgame post-scarcity world. When humans can easily make anything we want, without destroying the planet or even really each other, what is best for humanity? How we do direct the world in that direction, as opposed to telling people austerity is the answer to their problems? Of course on MMM, we're partially talking about "austerity" and how you really don't need money to be happy and partially about how to spend your money much more effectively to be happy in the system we're currently in today. But it's important to be cognizant that many people who are poor are that way because of systemic factors that lead to things like a dearth of quantitative reasoning skills. These are precisely the people who can't understand MMM and even if they could today won't be able to continue to apply those principles as the world around them changes over the next 20 years like you or I can. Remember this is a huge chunk of society, and depending on how we treat education and other socioeconomic factors that strongly influence the quantitative reasoning skills of our population as a country/world the percentage of people like this might go up or might go down. There's the possibility for danger here. If you tell people who have to work 2 weeks a year to buy coffee that they should not drink coffee, what happens if as lots of them start to do that the system changes so that no longer gets them ahead? In some ways this goes back to what I think Warren Buffet said about progress, where one person standing in the theater can see much better but everyone standing in the theater can't see any better plus they can't sit down.

I personally highly doubt things would or will play out that way and don't think they have at all so far, but coupled with income inequality and automation I think it's an interesting thing to run out in one's head. I hope if we face these questions we don't have people having to learn the "hard" way that everyday coffee is an unbelievable luxury when you spend most days wondering if bombs are going to destroy your home or how your children are going to eat today. Or, how you have to work all day in the factory to be able to afford rent in the homes that the factory owns or the food that the factory sells so that your children can grow to adults and you can forget about coffee.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Coffee or tea can indeed be had, every day for a year, for a lot less than two weeks' worth of a minimum-wage-earner's take-home pay. Just not at a coffee shop, made up on demand by somebody else, with fancy ingredients and lots of variety. Such a product is far from simple and the cost of providing it, as SwordGuy pointed out, is not trivial.

Small luxuries can indeed make an unpleasant, difficult lifestyle more pleasant. But when these luxuries become a daily item of consumption, they cease to be luxuries. Hedonic adaptation sets in, and pretty soon people feel as though they "have" to have their expensive daily cuppa. Any suggestion that they replace it with something more affordable is met with scorn.

For what it's worth, because of my adopted daughter's family and social connections I'm in far more regular contact with the entitlement class than I would ordinarily care to be. By "entitlement class", I don't mean poor people, low-income people, or people who receive social assistance. I mean people who, as adults,

(1) genuinely believe they have a right to the result of other people's labor without giving something of equal value in exchange,
(2) are so convinced of their entitlement that if other people aren't forthcoming with their resources they feel justified in taking what they want by force, guile, or social pressure, and
(3) have reason to believe as they do because their expectations have a basis in fact.

Most of the members of this class whom I've met so far spend far more than I do on fast food, restaurants, expensive drinks, disposable clothing, makeup, hair/nail/beauty treatments, and entertainments. They do this instead of saving money, educating themselves or building themselves up to qualify for a better job or a higher income, or acquiring appreciating assets. But they don't feel as though they're treating themselves. They feel as though they're paying for something they "need", because they feel bad about themselves if they don't.

Apparently going without a luxury now and then "triggers" people in the entitlement class and gives them trauma. So does delayed gratification. They simply aren't emotionally capable of delaying gratification or of being satisfied with less. Nor are they capable of making a plan (such as a budget) and sticking to it. The maturity and psychosocial development just isn't there.

[swashbucklinstache]

Apparently going without a luxury now and then "triggers" people in the entitlement class and gives them trauma. So does delayed gratification. They simply aren't emotionally capable of delaying gratification or of being satisfied with less. Nor are they capable of making a plan (such as a budget) and sticking to it. The maturity and psychosocial development just isn't there.

I agree with this a lot and I've seen what you described too. The challenge of course is how to we teach people not to live this way, and how do we protect the people who can't or won't live this way? Should we? Or is it even that big of a deal as it is? Is this a matter of education, not necessarily in the traditional sense? How do you fix that is a hard question for humanity. A lot of times I've seen cases where I think it is an educational/upbringing issue, but other times it seems just how people are wired. I wonder about the people who will always be in the bottom 10 percent no matter the system, and what is the right amount of 'luxury' for them to live in at the direct cost of those people who are further up in life. It sucks that, as you say, many are willing to take what they think they deserve if they don't get it which makes this really hard. I'm sure there's some "squeaky wheel gets the grease" going on here too. I also think social mobility plays a huge role in the answer to all of these questions so you aren't guaranteeing that their offspring will lead a similar life.

Sundays are for free pondering of big questions apparently :). Sorry for not bringing any ideas/answers to the table!

[Petuniajo]

Saw this gem on FB recently:

"My Verizon bill got jacked up to over $700/month for unknown reasons 2 months ago...

We had:
2 grandfathered unlimited lines
3 smartphones on a 15 gig shared plan
2 cellular enabled watches

(Partner) called and chewed them out.

Now we have:
5 unlimited data/texting/voice lines
2 cellular enabled watches
Total = $324/month!

Great job, (Partner)!"

What a deal...?

[Paul der Krake]

Saw this gem on FB recently:

"My Verizon bill got jacked up to over $700/month for unknown reasons 2 months ago...

We had:
2 grandfathered unlimited lines
3 smartphones on a 15 gig shared plan
2 cellular enabled watches

(Partner) called and chewed them out.

Now we have:
5 unlimited data/texting/voice lines
2 cellular enabled watches
Total = $324/month!

Great job, (Partner)!"

What a deal...?

He drives a hard bargain...

[Petuniajo]

Saw this gem on FB recently:

"My Verizon bill got jacked up to over $700/month for unknown reasons 2 months ago...

We had:
2 grandfathered unlimited lines
3 smartphones on a 15 gig shared plan
2 cellular enabled watches

(Partner) called and chewed them out.

Now we have:
5 unlimited data/texting/voice lines
2 cellular enabled watches
Total = $324/month!

Great job, (Partner)!"

What a deal...?

He drives a hard bargain...

5 lines for $324 total comes out to $64.80/ line. That actually seems like a pretty good deal to me for unlimited plans. Depends on their uses for the phones and whether each line is paid for by the individual person who uses it. Facepunch away...

I can't comment on their use, but I do know it is 2 adults and their 3 minor children all living in the same house--I assume that is who the phones are for.

[Just Joe]

Hmmmm...

Fancy phones vs car vs money in the bank.

Plenty of cheaper solutions.

[VeggieTable]

Apparently going without a luxury now and then "triggers" people in the entitlement class and gives them trauma. So does delayed gratification. They simply aren't emotionally capable of delaying gratification or of being satisfied with less. Nor are they capable of making a plan (such as a budget) and sticking to it. The maturity and psychosocial development just isn't there.

I think you hit the nail on the head. When suggesting that others go without, in particular poor people, people who make a decent living who also like those "small" pleasures feel that their choices are also being called into question. The thing is, people seem to think that living like you have more money than you do leads to having more money. I've seen this when suggesting that people live within their means on comment threads. People will respond with something to the effect of, why should I have to accept my salary for what it is? As if planning your spending around your income means that you are accepting you will never make more money.  It's nonsensical, and leads many people into debt. I think the "entitlement class" you coined may very well be the largest class in this country.

For the record, I do think it's very hard being poor and truly living paycheck to paycheck. I also think they are doing themselves a disservice when they can't afford to pay both the electric *and* the gas bills, but still buy a latte every morning.

[rawr237]

I Googled for my local Facebook buy/sell because you guys made me curious. What came up under "[City] Yard Sale / Buy, Sell, Trade" turns out to be a car dealer page...found this:

“If you're not making someone else's life better, then you're wasting your time. Your life will become better by making other lives better.”
― Will Smith

Just sold a New 2016 Chevy Trax to a really nice lady, she was 54yrs old and Never bought a new car before in her life!
Her credit was really bad 537, she didn't make a whole lot of money at her work, she only been at her residents for 6 months, and she didn't have no money for a down payment.......here is the kicker, she told me she only wanted to pay $125- $150 a month for the payments..........I honestly almost gave up........the reason I didn't was because she was so nice...........I worked very hard to get her into a new car, my manager worked hard, we never gave up........she didn't either!

I am happy to report she left in her brand new car!

When your nice to people they will go the extra mile for you.......very powerful tool!

So sad for that woman. This guy is patting himself on the back for selling her a new car that it really sounds like she couldn't afford.

[marty998]

I Googled for my local Facebook buy/sell because you guys made me curious. What came up under "[City] Yard Sale / Buy, Sell, Trade" turns out to be a car dealer page...found this:

“If you're not making someone else's life better, then you're wasting your time. Your life will become better by making other lives better.”
― Will Smith

Just sold a New 2016 Chevy Trax to a really nice lady, she was 54yrs old and Never bought a new car before in her life!
Her credit was really bad 537, she didn't make a whole lot of money at her work, she only been at her residents for 6 months, and she didn't have no money for a down payment.......here is the kicker, she told me she only wanted to pay $125- $150 a month for the payments..........I honestly almost gave up........the reason I didn't was because she was so nice...........I worked very hard to get her into a new car, my manager worked hard, we never gave up........she didn't either!

I am happy to report she left in her brand new car!

When your nice to people they will go the extra mile for you.......very powerful tool!

So sad for that woman. This guy is patting himself on the back for selling her a new car that it really sounds like she couldn't afford.

Grade 1 asshole that salesman is. He "worked" hard by conning her into accepting the delusional thoughts that this car would be hers no matter what.

His spelling and general writing skills are also atrocious.

[marielle]

I Googled for my local Facebook buy/sell because you guys made me curious. What came up under "[City] Yard Sale / Buy, Sell, Trade" turns out to be a car dealer page...found this:

“If you're not making someone else's life better, then you're wasting your time. Your life will become better by making other lives better.”
― Will Smith

Just sold a New 2016 Chevy Trax to a really nice lady, she was 54yrs old and Never bought a new car before in her life!
Her credit was really bad 537, she didn't make a whole lot of money at her work, she only been at her residents for 6 months, and she didn't have no money for a down payment.......here is the kicker, she told me she only wanted to pay $125- $150 a month for the payments..........I honestly almost gave up........the reason I didn't was because she was so nice...........I worked very hard to get her into a new car, my manager worked hard, we never gave up........she didn't either!

I am happy to report she left in her brand new car!

When your nice to people they will go the extra mile for you.......very powerful tool!

So sad for that woman. This guy is patting himself on the back for selling her a new car that it really sounds like she couldn't afford.

No way. How? Is the guy just bragging to other dealers or advertising so people with bad credit come to him?

150 a month, no money down, for a 21k SUV? What is this, a 15 year loan!?

[ducky19]

Saw a good one today on one of the for sale pages:

"2010 GMC Yukon Denali XL
$22,000

Heated first and second row seats, heated steering wheel, OnStar, navigation, Sirius XM, back up camera, rear wireless DVD system, moonroof. Fully loaded excellent condition 125,000. Only selling because the kids are growing up."

Yeesh. $22k for an 8 year old SUV with 125k miles on it! Granted I know these things sell for $65-$70k (how, I don't know), but holy crap. I crept on the woman's page and could tell that her and her family were the poster children for conspicuous consumption. On the bright side, they did drive it for eight years...

[Just Joe]

Someone was chatting about pickups the other day and mentioned 4Runners and Tacoma four door pickups. I like these vehicles. Would fit our family's needs.

I was blown away by what a 50K mile truck still costs. Even a 150K mile truck costs alot of money! I know they last a long time but I'm not paying that kind of money for that number of miles.

I climbed into my moustachian-mobile for the drive home and said some nice things to that old car.

[ducky19]

I love my 10 year old Pontiac Vibe! Bought it for cash a few years ago and still spent a third of what they want for that monstrosity, with fewer miles on it!

[JAYSLOL]

Someone was chatting about pickups the other day and mentioned 4Runners and Tacoma four door pickups. I like these vehicles. Would fit our family's needs.

I was blown away by what a 50K mile truck still costs. Even a 150K mile truck costs alot of money! I know they last a long time but I'm not paying that kind of money for that number of miles.

I climbed into my moustachian-mobile for the drive home and said some nice things to that old car.

Last year i saw someone post on Facebook a 2004 Toyota 4Runner with 150,000km for $20k (CDN).  I doubt they got that much, most 4Runners of that age i've seen are listed for less, but i'd still rather take the 12 year old Toyota for $20k over the 2010 GMC for the same money, lol.