Overheard at Work

[grantmeaname]

If you've never lived in a city situation where you drive around sometimes 30+ minutes to find an ultra tiny spot to parallel park in then you wouldn't understand the benefits of a back up camera.

I've parallel parked before. My car has this big transparent thing on the back so usually I try and look out that and see if I'm getting close to hitting something.

and more laws?
Sadly, small creatures bigger than our adult selves are often at the mercy of bigger creatures.

You can't legislate stoopid away any more than you can gadget-and-feature stoopid away. But at least laws generally require certain kinds of behavior from drivers, rather than prevent the consequences of not doing something so as to train drivers that not doing it doesn't matter (checking in your blind spot, looking behind the car before you back up, looking at what gear you selectd before you step on the gas).

[Rural]

(what is the cost difference between a big mirror and a small camera anyways?)

What is the maintenance cost on a video surveillance system Vs a simple mirror?  I'm a big fan of reliability and low maintenance cost. I'm sure the camera will work for the first couple of owners but by the time I typically buy them these are the things that start to break. When it comes to vehicles the simpler the better for me.

What is simple about a mirror in a car? Nothing. At the very least they have mechanical linkages so they can be adjusted from inside. More likely they are using electric controls with small motors to move the mirror. My sister broke one off when she was learning to drive and it cost $165 just to buy the part to replace it.

It's even more expensive if you've got a mirror with a heating unit or a turn signal on it.

I'll just point out that the law says you have to have a mirror, not that you have to have one exactly like the stupid over engineered bedpannish one that broke.

[HairyUpperLip]

Thread is going too off-topic on the backup cameras, but I also believe it's a stupid device that enables stupidity.

Wife and I went to look at Prius's and CT200h's the other day. Both dealers were surprised that I had zero interest in navigation and backup cameras. Why would I want more shit that's just going to break and cause more headaches?

Let 60-whatever people die per year. If people aren't capable of driving then maybe we should put our focus on who we let drive and what skills are needed to drive.

I say manual windows, locks, and standard transmissions for everyone. Let people learn how to really operate a fucking car and learn how annoying it is to rubberneck and needlessly shift gears. Maybe society will come together in harmony and respect when society has a flipping clue how to actually drive in a safe manner.

/end rant.

[MooseOutFront]

We really should drop the back-up camera talk and get this thread back on it's normal path of grocery expenses and gelatin food dishes of a bygone era.

[boarder42]

at 25 a month for a cell plan 1k lasts 40 months 2k lasts 80 so i guess you just dont use a cell phone? i mean even 5 bucks is 200 months.  200 months is only 17 years.  and that doesnt include buying a phone.

[dragoncar]

I just spoke with the woman who manages the cell phone contracts for my company. A number of employees racked up >$1,000 cell phone bill for ONE month each for their own phone numbers. I think the highest ever was something on the order >$4,000 for ONE MONTH. No that's not a typo: $4K for 1 month. I am 29 years old and I don't think I've spend more than $1-2K over the course of my LIFE on cell phones & plans, nevermind spending that in one month.

When confronted, the users in question had the audacity to say that it was their right to run up a company cell phone bill that high and refused to change their usage.

This is ridiculous on multiple levels.  First, there should be no way to run up a cell phone bill that high in this age of pervasive internet connectivity.  Was the employee on a satellite phone in the middle of the desert?

[seanc0x0]

I just spoke with the woman who manages the cell phone contracts for my company. A number of employees racked up >$1,000 cell phone bill for ONE month each for their own phone numbers. I think the highest ever was something on the order >$4,000 for ONE MONTH. No that's not a typo: $4K for 1 month. I am 29 years old and I don't think I've spend more than $1-2K over the course of my LIFE on cell phones & plans, nevermind spending that in one month.

When confronted, the users in question had the audacity to say that it was their right to run up a company cell phone bill that high and refused to change their usage.

This is ridiculous on multiple levels.  First, there should be no way to run up a cell phone bill that high in this age of pervasive internet connectivity.  Was the employee on a satellite phone in the middle of the desert?

International roaming, for one. There have been a few high-profile cases here where people took their phones out of the country and streamed Netflix and the like. Just checked, and if I took an iPhone to Europe without a travel plan, I'd be paying $15/MB!

[Wolf_Stache]

I just spoke with the woman who manages the cell phone contracts for my company. A number of employees racked up >$1,000 cell phone bill for ONE month each for their own phone numbers. I think the highest ever was something on the order >$4,000 for ONE MONTH. No that's not a typo: $4K for 1 month. I am 29 years old and I don't think I've spend more than $1-2K over the course of my LIFE on cell phones & plans, nevermind spending that in one month.

When confronted, the users in question had the audacity to say that it was their right to run up a company cell phone bill that high and refused to change their usage.

This is ridiculous on multiple levels.  First, there should be no way to run up a cell phone bill that high in this age of pervasive internet connectivity.  Was the employee on a satellite phone in the middle of the desert?

Seriously, but even that is not an excuse. We have a bunch of satelitte phones we use to keep in contact with the fleet when they are in the middle of the ocean, and those bills are less than $4000 for the YEAR! How the hell do you run up that much on a personal line in one month????

[nordlead]

at 25 a month for a cell plan 1k lasts 40 months 2k lasts 80 so i guess you just dont use a cell phone? i mean even 5 bucks is 200 months.  200 months is only 17 years.  and that doesnt include buying a phone.

Phones can easily be had for free, and 7 years of service at 29 years old means he would have got his first phone at 22. I didn't get my first cell phone until I was at least 22, and I'm 30, so I've only had a cell phone for 8 years.

If I count half my bill (since my wife had one too), it's only cost me $3232 for those 8 years of service. My next 8 years of service (since I didn't start with MVNO's), will probably cost me ~$2100 and that is including 3 phones on par with the Nexus 5 (essentially, 1 new phone every 2 years which is faster than I typically buy them).

[Brad_H]

This reminds me of a commercial I saw when I was at my parents house a few weeks ago (the only time I get to see them and be reminded of how horrible they are).

What a mean thing to say about the people who raised you.

[AlanStache]

I just spoke with the woman who manages the cell phone contracts for my company. A number of employees racked up >$1,000 cell phone bill for ONE month each for their own phone numbers. I think the highest ever was something on the order >$4,000 for ONE MONTH. No that's not a typo: $4K for 1 month. I am 29 years old and I don't think I've spend more than $1-2K over the course of my LIFE on cell phones & plans, nevermind spending that in one month.

When confronted, the users in question had the audacity to say that it was their right to run up a company cell phone bill that high and refused to change their usage.

This is ridiculous on multiple levels.  First, there should be no way to run up a cell phone bill that high in this age of pervasive internet connectivity.  Was the employee on a satellite phone in the middle of the desert?

International roaming, for one. There have been a few high-profile cases here where people took their phones out of the country and streamed Netflix and the like. Just checked, and if I took an iPhone to Europe without a travel plan, I'd be paying $15/MB!

This.  International data can be stupid expensive.  I think Tmoble is getting it cheaper in Europe now but not long ago I spend +20$ to log in and get an address while over there.  Then if the bs-ed like they were at home for 2hr a day +some Netflix, I can very easily see 4k$ (and 0.30$ per text adds up).  Thats the HOW anyway, NOT saying its right, but it would be easier than you might think.  That said, they are f-ing stupid to not know about roaming charges and its hard to think they care so little about the company that they would waste money like that.  Would be better off buying local phones with data plains and skyping back to US as needed, data in most of the (developed) world is painfully cheap compared to the US, never mind wifi calling/data.

[Cheddar Stacker]

This reminds me of a commercial I saw when I was at my parents house a few weeks ago (the only time I get to see them and be reminded of how horrible they are).

What a mean thing to say about the people who raised you.

I thought the exact same thing when I first read this. Then a light bulb appeared when I realized he's talking about the commercial, not the parents (at least I think). Them and They can be confusing sometimes.

[infogoon]

I just spoke with the woman who manages the cell phone contracts for my company. A number of employees racked up >$1,000 cell phone bill for ONE month each for their own phone numbers. I think the highest ever was something on the order >$4,000 for ONE MONTH. No that's not a typo: $4K for 1 month. I am 29 years old and I don't think I've spend more than $1-2K over the course of my LIFE on cell phones & plans, nevermind spending that in one month.

When confronted, the users in question had the audacity to say that it was their right to run up a company cell phone bill that high and refused to change their usage.

I was speaking to one of our cellular company's sales guys, and he told me that the highest charge he'd ever seen was on the iPad for a professional hockey player; they were in Toronto for a game against the Leafs, but they arrived three or four days early, so he spent that time watching all of the other games streaming on his cellular data plan. The total was somewhere in the five digits range.

[SomedayStache]

Sitting in the back yard with my husband.  We hear some car music from our next door neighbors.  My husband tells me that the neighbor bought a new car a few months back.  Couldn't afford to pay the tag and title on it at the time, let it sit, and now he owes >$1000 in late fees + tag/title.  The neighbor still can't afford to pay for the tag/title much less all those fees.  But neighbor loves his new car and doesn't want it to degrade by sitting idle in the drive. 

The obvious solution is to drive back and forth down your long driveway for about 15 minutes each day with the pimped out car stereo blaring.

I wish I could make shit like this up.

I feel like this is a terrible trashy gossip thread...but I'd rather come chat on here than say some of what I'm thinking to people in real life.

[CaliToCayman]

In my very first job out of college back in 2004, I remember my entire department (at my level) were temp to perm hires that they kept as temps for as long as possible, presumably so we would be easy to let go. We all made roughly $35k annually. One of the guys I worked with went out and bought one of those Infinity SUV's (I'm pretty sure at the time those were selling for north of $45k) and another guy leased a brand new cadillac.

At least the guy who bought the SUV also did some sort of construction work on the side making pretty good money, possibly even doubling his salary. But even now at the US equivalent of around $100k/year, there is no way in hell I'd spend $45k on a car.

[hermoninny]

In my very first job out of college back in 2004, I remember my entire department (at my level) were temp to perm hires that they kept as temps for as long as possible, presumably so we would be easy to let go. We all made roughly $35k annually. One of the guys I worked with went out and bought one of those Infinity SUV's (I'm pretty sure at the time those were selling for north of $45k) and another guy leased a brand new cadillac.

At least the guy who bought the SUV also did some sort of construction work on the side making pretty good money, possibly even doubling his salary. But even now at the US equivalent of around $100k/year, there is no way in hell I'd spend $45k on a car.

When I got my first job out of college in 2002, about half of my "start class" (we all started in groups of 15-20 in October following graduation) went out and bought BMW's and Mercedes on $41k salaries.  It felt like every week someone was showing off their new car.  Not being Mustachian at the time, I gave my dad back the car he had bought for me to use after mine died on the side of the freeway my senior year and purchased a $20k truck.  My dad said, "You know, some people start with a cheaper car and work their way up to a brand new truck."  I told him about my coworkers and he didn't say another word.  Still, I wish I had bought something older and used, but I didn't know any better at the time.  I did pay the truck off early and drove it for nine years, until I was pg with child #2 and knew I couldn't fit two car seats in it.  I'm guessing they all lived with their parents, because even splitting an apartment with a friend, my car payment was a little rough. 

[boarder42]

So I guess he is planning to die this year since he wont spend that much over the course of his LIFE.  Or do you just die inside at 30. Let me know BC I'm almost there

[farmstache]

So I guess he is planning to die this year since he wont spend that much over the course of his LIFE.  Or do you just die inside at 30. Let me know BC I'm almost there

Liberty said they haven't spent this over the course of their life. Not that they'll never reach that total. Assumedly, if we live to 120yo... we can expect lots of phone bills to add up.

[SingleMomDebt]

I am sad for my friends....

Today, heard a friend of mine bought a place at the River. I blurted out to the group, "I thought they were broke?"
Probably not the thing to say.
But said friend is also throwing a big Bday bash for her and her husband. Even thought she told me they can't afford it.
"It'll cost $3,000"
Engineer husband works 2 jobs to keep treading and is exhausted. :/

Fourth of July, other friend went camping for a week even though they said they can't afford.
Apparently it's a big family gathering and the kids love it.

Do you want to teach the kids to act happy in the face of possibly losing your house?
Or would you rather teach them responsibility with their finances and still have happy family time at home?

Makes me sad, because you really can't tell them what you think. Either it makes you look arrogant, they really don't want to hear the truth because that would mean being uncomfortable and dealing with the mess, or they just want you to wallow in their pity party. blah.

I know I used to be in the same mindset, once. Now I just wish I could help them with knowledge.

[The Hamster]

You can't legislate stoopid away any more than you can gadget-and-feature stoopid away. But at least laws generally require certain kinds of behavior from drivers, rather than prevent the consequences of not doing something so as to train drivers that not doing it doesn't matter (checking in your blind spot, looking behind the car before you back up, looking at what gear you selectd before you step on the gas).

Oh god this is so true!  I work as a health and safety advisor and on one site I work at there have been so many minor vehicle accidents that it is the rule that anyone reversing a car into a parking space needs to have a spotter.  Well since that rule came out there have been one or two incidents of minor collisions between cars and spotters!  Maybe all the company cars should have the reversing cameras installed instead of using a spotter who could be injured if they get run over from standing in the wrong place.  But they'll probably legislate that the spotter should have his own spotter to make sure he doesn't get in the way of the vehicle *facepalm

[SwordGuy]

This reminds me of a commercial I saw when I was at my parents house a few weeks ago (the only time I get to see them and be reminded of how horrible they are).

What a mean thing to say about the people who raised you.

I've met "parents" for which such a comment would have been an over-the-top super-kind statement compared to the truth.  Not every person who has a child is nice, good to their children, or even takes the time to raise them.

If you don't believe me, look up your local state's sexual offender list and see how many pedophiles there are in your neighborhood.  There are hundreds within a few miles of me - and that's pretty much the way it is in any large US city.   

[Travis]

Correct, international data. This was with AT&T about a year ago before anyone in the company was really looking into what the phones were costing. Sales & execs would travel international and rack up huge international, data roamin overages. They claimed it was their "right/perk" to use the company phone as they saw fit and refused to change their behavior.

Makes me wonder what else they're wasting company money on.

[eyePod]

This reminds me of a commercial I saw when I was at my parents house a few weeks ago (the only time I get to see them and be reminded of how horrible they are).

What a mean thing to say about the people who raised you.

Just because someone raised you doesn't mean they're good people deserving praise/respect. Some people aren't as lucky as you and me.

But I have a feeling he was talking about the commercials. I agree. Can't stand them and I'm not used to them since I basically use Netflix only.

[Jack]

Wife and I went to look at Prius's and CT200h's the other day. Both dealers were surprised that I had zero interest in navigation and backup cameras. Why would I want more shit that's just going to break and cause more headaches?

...

I say manual windows, locks, and standard transmissions for everyone. Let people learn how to really operate a fucking car and learn how annoying it is to rubberneck and needlessly shift gears. Maybe society will come together in harmony and respect when society has a flipping clue how to actually drive in a safe manner.

/end rant.

If you don't want more shit that will break and cause more headaches, why were you looking at a fancy hybrid in the first place? Go get a 20-year-old Civic VX hatch with manual everything (including steering) and no ABS instead.

(On any other forum this would be a sarcastic joke, but here it's a sincere suggestion!)

[RyanAtTanagra]

This reminds me of a commercial I saw when I was at my parents house a few weeks ago (the only time I get to see them and be reminded of how horrible they are).

What a mean thing to say about the people who raised you.

Just because someone raised you doesn't mean they're good people deserving praise/respect. Some people aren't as lucky as you and me.

But I have a feeling he was talking about the commercials. I agree. Can't stand them and I'm not used to them since I basically use Netflix only.

Yes, I was referring to the commercials ;-)

[HairyUpperLip]

Wife and I went to look at Prius's and CT200h's the other day. Both dealers were surprised that I had zero interest in navigation and backup cameras. Why would I want more shit that's just going to break and cause more headaches?

...

I say manual windows, locks, and standard transmissions for everyone. Let people learn how to really operate a fucking car and learn how annoying it is to rubberneck and needlessly shift gears. Maybe society will come together in harmony and respect when society has a flipping clue how to actually drive in a safe manner.

/end rant.

If you don't want more shit that will break and cause more headaches, why were you looking at a fancy hybrid in the first place? Go get a 20-year-old Civic VX hatch with manual everything (including steering) and no ABS instead.

(On any other forum this would be a sarcastic joke, but here it's a sincere suggestion!)

For the wife and baby. Though both cars were so crappy in real life that we decided neither one is worth it. I'm trying to get her to consider the Fit in a manual now, but we will see.

As for a Civic VX - man, I wish I could find one worth buying. Any worth owning are $4500+ from what I see. I would drive the hell out of one. I'm a huge fan of the 1992-1995 Honda Civic hatchback's. I've had several of them already in my life and still have one (hobby car).

[Kansaslover5]

I got 3 invitations for work Xmas parties, all >$100 a head, the most expensive one $160 a head.  Included are staff who make under 40K a year. Holy guacamole!
Guess who's being a party pooper? Man, I'm saving like nearly $500 by not going.

Why do managers think employees want to spend that kind of money to eat badly prepared food with people they usually have nothing in common with other than work?

This happens A LOT being a military officer as well. You're "expected" to attend military balls and other social functions that often cost $50 or more. You're also hit up for things like "cup and flower funds." The last unit I was in made me put up $200 for that fund and I never received anything out of that fund. What a waste.

[Adventine]

What's a cup and flower fund?

[Goldielocks]

If you've never lived in a city situation where you drive around sometimes 30+ minutes to find an ultra tiny spot to parallel park in then you wouldn't understand the benefits of a back up camera.

I've parallel parked before. My car has this big transparent thing on the back so usually I try and look out that and see if I'm getting close to hitting something.

Lol!  I used to parallel park my little car into ever smaller spots by active use of the 1-2 inch built in bumper retraction..
Park by touch.  No backup camera needed, and I may have crunched it anyway...

Had to stop when they invented painted plastic bumpers.. A most non- mustachian innovation IMO.

[Travis]

What's a cup and flower fund?

In the Army it's a combination of "flowers for birth/death in family" and "plaque when you leave the unit" fund.  Each officer or NCO is expected to contribute a set amount. Some units can be very coercive with getting you to contribute.

[Christof]

If you don't believe me, look up your local state's sexual offender list and see how many pedophiles there are in your neighborhood.  There are hundreds within a few miles of me - and that's pretty much the way it is in any large US city.

I would start by looking up the criteria on how to get onto the list, because then you would realize that it might no means in a list of pedophiles. For instance, if you are a young woman of 18 years and your boy friend is 17 then kissing in public can put you onto this list for live as a "pedophile".

[Kansaslover5]

A cup and flower fund is SUPPOSED to be used to pay for plaques when senior enlisted or officers leave the unit. It's also supposed to be used for buying gifts for couples having new babies or getting married. It's like a slush fund. The problem is that it gets abused. There's no accountability and then some people get left out. For instance, I never got a fancy plaque when I left the unit. I don't know what happened to my $200. Additionally I've seen people come and go and NOT pay the $200 and still leave with a plaque. It's all screwed up.

[Adventine]

A cup and flower fund is SUPPOSED to be used to pay for plaques when senior enlisted or officers leave the unit. It's also supposed to be used for buying gifts for couples having new babies or getting married. It's like a slush fund. The problem is that it gets abused. There's no accountability and then some people get left out. For instance, I never got a fancy plaque when I left the unit. I don't know what happened to my $200. Additionally I've seen people come and go and NOT pay the $200 and still leave with a plaque. It's all screwed up.

Damn, that's awful.

[Travis]

A cup and flower fund is SUPPOSED to be used to pay for plaques when senior enlisted or officers leave the unit. It's also supposed to be used for buying gifts for couples having new babies or getting married. It's like a slush fund. The problem is that it gets abused. There's no accountability and then some people get left out. For instance, I never got a fancy plaque when I left the unit. I don't know what happened to my $200. Additionally I've seen people come and go and NOT pay the $200 and still leave with a plaque. It's all screwed up.

I put in at least $100 dollars to the fund when I joined the unit. I was given a flower bouquet by the unit for my mother's funeral, but nothing for when I departed the unit after two years on the job. About 18 months in the personnel NCOs changed out and they lost track of who paid in.

[austin]

I guess I should probably contribute to my unit's fund then. :/ No one's ever hit me up and I'm not the type of person to volunteer that money. Especially when there's a $25 hail and farewell about once a month.

I did have to pay about $100 for my plaque when I left the line battery and never even got one, so...

[Daleth]

From the article:

Rear facing cameras, including those that automakers already offer, would save between 59 and 69 deaths a year, NHTSA said.

Any death is bad, but statistically speaking this is a miniscule amount. Too miniscule to require all drivers in the US to have cameras in their cars.

So whose kids are you volunteering to be among that 59-69 deaths a year? Your own, I hope?

[trailrated]

From the article:

Rear facing cameras, including those that automakers already offer, would save between 59 and 69 deaths a year, NHTSA said.

Any death is bad, but statistically speaking this is a miniscule amount. Too miniscule to require all drivers in the US to have cameras in their cars.

So whose kids are you volunteering to be among that 59-69 deaths a year? Your own, I hope?

Better yet, let's ban all cars so there are no auto related deaths per year

[RFAAOATB]

Better yet, let's ban all cars so there are no auto related deaths per year

And hire the unemployed as Rickshaw runners.  Win-Win.

[trailrated]

Better yet, let's ban all cars so there are no auto related deaths per year

And higher the unemployed as Rickshaw runners.  Win-Win.

hahahaha, would take care of the obesity problem at the same time

[Christof]

From the article:

Rear facing cameras, including those that automakers already offer, would save between 59 and 69 deaths a year, NHTSA said.

Any death is bad, but statistically speaking this is a miniscule amount. Too miniscule to require all drivers in the US to have cameras in their cars.

So whose kids are you volunteering to be among that 59-69 deaths a year? Your own, I hope?

A kid that dies is always a tragic event. But it doesn't help to demand that a poster should submit their own kids to die when all that happened was pointing out that 65 persons out of about 400 million is a really low number that is by far outnumbered by people who died riding their bike or taking a shower. None of which we are likely to ban. Also the same amount spent in orher countries on food or in the US in education might save a lot more than those 65 lives.

[Numbers Man]

I read this one on a Yelp talk thread:

I don't care what Consumer Reports says; I think of the extended warranty as insurance. You hope you don't need to use it, but if you do, you're glad you have it.

On most cars, the sunroof is part of an assembly. You can't just replace the defective part, you have to replace the entire assembly. Parts plus the labor to drop the entire roof liner... budget $2K. Not saying it will happen, but if it does, the extended warranty just paid for itself.

Also, you're getting an SUV- why WOULDN'T you get 4WD? You never know where life will take you.

My thoughts: Life will take you right to the poorhouse with those decisions.

[Daisy]

From the article:

Rear facing cameras, including those that automakers already offer, would save between 59 and 69 deaths a year, NHTSA said.

Any death is bad, but statistically speaking this is a miniscule amount. Too miniscule to require all drivers in the US to have cameras in their cars.

So whose kids are you volunteering to be among that 59-69 deaths a year? Your own, I hope?

My biggest beef isn’t with the camera itself, but REQUIRING all cars to have it. If you want one for your car, go for it.

Are we not all MMM blog readers here? Please re-read:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/

Additionally, as a small car driver, my biggest risk when backing out is when a huge momma truck or SUV parks next to me and totally blocks my view of the parking lot cross traffic whizzing by behind me.  A backup camera would be useless in that situation. I usually have to stop, take a deep breath, and say a quick prayer before backing out because I can’t see the traffic coming by.

I propose we eliminate the small car/big car discrepancy and require everyone to drive the same sized car.

Or, perhaps, we should require that all parking lots have designated areas for small cars, another for medium cars, and one for the extravagantly sized ones. That way, no one is blocking anyone’s view. I guess you’d have to further subdivide the disabled section since there may also be car-size discrepancies occurring in that part of the parking lot as well. So multiply that by 2, you’d have to have 6 different sections in each parking lot to accommodate all kinds of drivers and cars.

[Christof]

With more than 15 million new cars in the US and $140 per car we are talking here about 2 BILLION dollars. There is a lot you can do with this kind of money.

[ender]

Apparently, the local credit union (they have an office on site) recommends no less than a 45% total debt-to-income ratio for people buying mortgages.

Which is pretty mindblowing if you are at that percentage, not going to lie. I didn't dare ask pre/post tax income vs debt, though the slides made it seem like pretax.

[sol]

My biggest beef isn’t with the camera itself, but REQUIRING all cars to have it. If you want one for your car, go for it.

They made the exact same arguments against seat belts.

And the comparison to shower or biking deaths isn't valid.  Showering and biking are going to happen anyway, they are unstoppable.  Banning them would have severe negative consequences to accompany the slight positive consequence of saving a few lives.  Mandating backup cameras has the same slight positive consequence of saving a few lives without any of the negative consequences.  We don't all suddenly get fat and stinky when new cars have cameras.  It's a net positive decision, unlike banning biking or showering.

Besides, if you don't like it, just don't buy a new car.  Or tape over the screen. 

And to be clear, Tesla's lobbying to allow cameras in place of mirrors is not to require all cars to have cameras, but to allow some consumers to choose cameras instead of optical mirrors.  They're asking for more consumer freedom (you libertarians) and less regulation.

Cameras are cheap.  Your cell phone camera costs like $5, and new cars already all have screens in them, so it's not like this life-saving safety feature is going to bankrupt anyone buying a new car.

[Daisy]

My biggest beef isn’t with the camera itself, but REQUIRING all cars to have it. If you want one for your car, go for it.

They made the exact same arguments against seat belts.

And the comparison to shower or biking deaths isn't valid.  Showering and biking are going to happen anyway, they are unstoppable.  Banning them would have severe negative consequences to accompany the slight positive consequence of saving a few lives.  Mandating backup cameras has the same slight positive consequence of saving a few lives without any of the negative consequences.  We don't all suddenly get fat and stinky when new cars have cameras.  It's a net positive decision, unlike banning biking or showering.

Besides, if you don't like it, just don't buy a new car.  Or tape over the screen. 

And to be clear, Tesla's lobbying to allow cameras in place of mirrors is not to require all cars to have cameras, but to allow some consumers to choose cameras instead of optical mirrors.  They're asking for more consumer freedom (you libertarians) and less regulation.

Cameras are cheap.  Your cell phone camera costs like $5, and new cars already all have screens in them, so it's not like this life-saving safety feature is going to bankrupt anyone buying a new car.

But why would I want to contribute to the over-use of rare earth metals in screens and cameras in every car? That doesn't sound very green. Let's say the cost is that low and that's all they will charge for it. Will it stay that low? What if the rare earth metal situation gets worse? I'd rather those materials be used in cameras such as surgeries where they would be of more use.

[AlanStache]

But why would I want to contribute to the over-use of rare earth metals in screens and cameras in every car? That doesn't sound very green. Let's say the cost is that low and that's all they will charge for it. Will it stay that low? What if the rare earth metal situation gets worse? I'd rather those materials be used in cameras such as surgeries where they would be of more use.

Sarcasm I hope?  Without doing the math I have to think that the net r.e.m. usage of this is very small relative to total usage.  I am all for hugging a tree but lets have some perspective.  If I am wrong please explain. Yes a tree saved is a tree earned, but really this would seem much less than round off error.

[SwordGuy]

If you don't believe me, look up your local state's sexual offender list and see how many pedophiles there are in your neighborhood.  There are hundreds within a few miles of me - and that's pretty much the way it is in any large US city.

I would start by looking up the criteria on how to get onto the list, because then you would realize that it might no means in a list of pedophiles. For instance, if you are a young woman of 18 years and your boy friend is 17 then kissing in public can put you onto this list for live as a "pedophile".

One can also be hit by lightning 17 times in a row, then get smashed by a crashing plane, but what are the odds?

I get an email notice whenever one of those people moves within 5 miles of my home and I check them out.  In 5 years of doing this, looking at hundreds of records, haven't seen one yet that might even remotely qualify for your example. 

The overwhelming preponderance of them are there for molesting 2 to 6 year olds, or raping 10-14 year olds, MULTIPLE TIMES, all while being in their 30s or older.  Check it out for yourself.  Facts are useful things.

[Eric]

I've met "parents" for which such a comment would have been an over-the-top super-kind statement compared to the truth.  Not every person who has a child is nice, good to their children, or even takes the time to raise them.

If you don't believe me, look up your local state's sexual offender list and see how many pedophiles there are in your neighborhood.  There are hundreds within a few miles of me - and that's pretty much the way it is in any large US city.

Is there some link between pedophilia and poor parenting that I'm not aware of?  Because it seems like a really strange assertion that better parenting would somehow cure a mental defect or illness.  Are we going to start blaming parents for mental retardation and autism too?

[SwordGuy]

I've met "parents" for which such a comment would have been an over-the-top super-kind statement compared to the truth.  Not every person who has a child is nice, good to their children, or even takes the time to raise them.

If you don't believe me, look up your local state's sexual offender list and see how many pedophiles there are in your neighborhood.  There are hundreds within a few miles of me - and that's pretty much the way it is in any large US city.

Is there some link between pedophilia and poor parenting that I'm not aware of?  Because it seems like a really strange assertion that better parenting would somehow cure a mental defect or illness.  Are we going to start blaming parents for mental retardation and autism too?

Being a pedophile with one's children is extremely bad parenting.   That's the link.

I used that example because an earlier poster made a derogatory comment about their parents, another poster assumed it was wrong of that person to do so.  I was just providing documentable evidence that not everyone who says something bad about their parents is out of line.   Some parents are so evil that anything less than "Hang that bastard from the nearest tree!" is being nicer than they deserve.  Just sayin...