Author Topic: Overheard at Work 2  (Read 1287398 times)

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4150 on: November 27, 2024, 01:17:18 PM »
If you get a big planned develop, you can require as part of the zoning and permitting that the developer do things like build roads and sidewalks and sewers and run power, rather than the city/county having to pay to do that (and then you pay for it through "HOA fees" instead of "taxes," which is apparently more digestible for many folks).
You also pay more for it, because the developer has to take a loan. But at least you didn't pay taxes to a democratically (for it's worth) controlled government, but to the not at all controlled government of the private bank, which is of course way better!

reeshau

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4151 on: November 27, 2024, 01:40:39 PM »
On the other hand, without an HOA your neighbor could start a car salvage yard, or any number of annoyances that greatly reduce your property value, just after you buy.

There are out-of-control anecdotes either way.  They are a tool, not good or evil.  I think like a lot of local / civil service positions, HOA board positions are avoided by most, and ignored until something goes haywire.

* or maybe something fancier, like an open air bitcoin mine.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2024, 03:28:58 PM by reeshau »

Metalcat

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4152 on: November 27, 2024, 03:17:03 PM »
I guess what I'm fascinated by is the difference between the perception of HOAs vs Condo Corps in Canada.

I guess what I'm wondering is if there's a lot less governance for HOAs than there is for Condo Corps. We have enormous rules for Condo Corps, and as board members, we have to take entire courses on those governance systems. There are endless, strict regulations as to how Condo Corps run and what they can do, and major liability for the volunteers running them.

Obviously we have toxic boards run by power tripping lunatics, and cases of mismanagement, no system of governance is effective all the time, but in general, it sounds to me like HOAs are a little more self-governed maybe? Like they basically get to run the way they want to?

Or am I missing something.

Yeah, we have very limited rules HOAs/condo associations need to live by, and those rules are all state/local and so will be more or less stringent depending on the politics of that particular area.  There are some requirements that everyone must meet -- those historic "no Blacks or Jews allowed" restrictions are unconstitutional under federal law and thus invalid -- but for the most part, it's up to the localities to decide what they want to require.  I remember when I was in Albuquerque, a local citizen who lived in an HOA had xeriscaped his yard (because, you know, desert), and the HOA went after him for not maintaining the required green lawn!  They had to pass a law at the state level to override the HOA's right to be stupid and wasteful.

I suspect it comes from our worship of private industry and private property rights.  Remember, in the US, corporations are people.  So if private citizens want to band together and form their own association, they are entitled to establish basically whatever rules they want.  Most of our rules are imposed retroactively, in response to Bad Things Happening -- for example, the SEC requirements are there to permit fraud, so if you want to sell stock publicly, you need to comply.  But if you stay a privately-owned company, even that doesn't apply.

HOAs have also been a way for municipalities to outsource some of the hard costs of development.  If you get a big planned develop, you can require as part of the zoning and permitting that the developer do things like build roads and sidewalks and sewers and run power, rather than the city/county having to pay to do that (and then you pay for it through "HOA fees" instead of "taxes," which is apparently more digestible for many folks).  But then of course those developers want to protect their investment, so they will limit the things their buyers can do in a way that they think will improve/maintain property values (at least until everything is sold).  And of course once you have those detailed HOA rules in place, inertia sets in, and it's hard to change them.

It is funny to me, though, that even in the land of tread-not-on-me rugged individualism, we will yell and protest about getting the government off our backs, and then turn around and intentionally buy a home in a HOA with a giant list of rules.  Because apparently while we value our own right not to be told what to do, it is more important that our neighbors be required to keep their lawns nice.

This is fascinating...

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4153 on: November 28, 2024, 03:02:56 AM »
On the other hand, without an HOA your neighbor could start a car salvage yard, or any number of annoyances that greatly reduce your property value, just after you buy.

LOL in 90% of developments you can't even build a multi-apartment house, but you think it allows to build an industry there?

Also if you are concerned about property value, you are doing it wrong if you don't live the life a fixer-upper that moves to a new one once you repair the old.

Dave1442397

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4154 on: November 28, 2024, 06:06:31 AM »
On the other hand, without an HOA your neighbor could start a car salvage yard, or any number of annoyances that greatly reduce your property value, just after you buy.

LOL in 90% of developments you can't even build a multi-apartment house, but you think it allows to build an industry there?

Also if you are concerned about property value, you are doing it wrong if you don't live the life a fixer-upper that moves to a new one once you repair the old.

Yeah, I've never lived in an HOA community, and the worst thing I've seen was a local contractor who liked to park his pickup on the grass next to his driveway.

After the 2009 real estate crash, we had a few foreclosures in the area that were left empty for a while. If the grass got out of control, the township would send someone to cut it and bill the owner.

Bentley Little's horror fiction, The Association, is a fun look at HOAs taken to extremes.

reeshau

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4155 on: November 28, 2024, 06:34:00 AM »
On the other hand, without an HOA your neighbor could start a car salvage yard, or any number of annoyances that greatly reduce your property value, just after you buy.

LOL in 90% of developments you can't even build a multi-apartment house, but you think it allows to build an industry there?

Also if you are concerned about property value, you are doing it wrong if you don't live the life a fixer-upper that moves to a new one once you repair the old.

Actually, in Houston, the largest US city without zoning, it is fully possible.  There are all kinds of crazy combinations that you see; they look weird because they don't follow the typical rules.

https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/DevelopRegs/#develop

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4156 on: November 28, 2024, 08:51:16 AM »
#Freedom!

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4157 on: November 28, 2024, 09:36:59 AM »
On the other hand, without an HOA your neighbor could start a car salvage yard, or any number of annoyances that greatly reduce your property value, just after you buy.

LOL in 90% of developments you can't even build a multi-apartment house, but you think it allows to build an industry there?

Also if you are concerned about property value, you are doing it wrong if you don't live the life a fixer-upper that moves to a new one once you repair the old.

Actually, in Houston, the largest US city without zoning, it is fully possible.  There are all kinds of crazy combinations that you see; they look weird because they don't follow the typical rules.

https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/DevelopRegs/#develop
You know, strange is relative. I think American suburbs are really strange, with nothing but houses, empty grass and far too big streets.
I grew up right to a city part that was build 100 years ago. The blocks still had factory ruins inside them (though you normally can't see them from outside). One still had some light industry going on and of course a bit down the road was a carpentry and after that a car repair.
And of course doctors of all types are everywhere (for agiven amount of concentration). As are flower shops or bakeries.

And now I live in a small town. Here is literally a street with a house, a flower gardener, a space that calls itself a furnishings shop (a repurposed barn and you have to phone before to be let in WTF?) and another house.
American uniformity is strange. You have no freedom at all!!

Dave1442397

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4158 on: November 28, 2024, 10:03:21 AM »
You know, strange is relative. I think American suburbs are really strange, with nothing but houses, empty grass and far too big streets.

After visiting my brother in Ireland, I'd never complain about wide streets. This is a new development, and before it was built people were concerned that the streets were too narrow. The developer claimed it was safer, and I'm sure it's just a coincidence that they could cram more houses in and save money on paving.

The streets are so narrow that people park cars on the sidewalk so that traffic can pass by. The car ports (only some houses have them) are too narrow to open your car doors properly, so if you need to get a car seat in or out, you have to do it with the car on the sidewalk.

After work hours, the sidewalks are mostly taken up by cars, so anyone walking with a baby stroller is constantly out in the street avoiding parked cars.

My brother said the garbage trucks can't always make it around corners, and sometimes have to back up hundreds of meters to approach streets from a different intersection.

All in all, a really crappy layout for a housing development.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4159 on: November 28, 2024, 10:46:51 AM »
It's a bit ironic that the street is called "The Walk".
« Last Edit: November 28, 2024, 02:01:20 PM by Taran Wanderer »

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4160 on: November 28, 2024, 11:00:12 AM »
That certainly is too narrow for a 2-way street. Isn't street parkign illegal with that size?
What they should have done instead is making that a shared space with the "play street" sign aka walking speed only. 

reeshau

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4161 on: November 28, 2024, 11:32:21 AM »
I will say, until I moved to Dublin I thought that rear view mirrors that tucked themselves in were a silly feature.  Nope!  I definitely had situations where I "touched mirrors" with parked cars who had forgotten to fold their in.  On fairly busy streets, too.

Some of the most fun driving were in the West, between hedgerows, with pullout to be able to pass a car the other way.  In touristy areas, there are signs to remind you to honk when you took a corner, because you couldn't see if there was an opposing car.

Dave1442397

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4162 on: November 28, 2024, 02:39:23 PM »
I will say, until I moved to Dublin I thought that rear view mirrors that tucked themselves in were a silly feature.  Nope!  I definitely had situations where I "touched mirrors" with parked cars who had forgotten to fold their in.  On fairly busy streets, too.

Some of the most fun driving were in the West, between hedgerows, with pullout to be able to pass a car the other way.  In touristy areas, there are signs to remind you to honk when you took a corner, because you couldn't see if there was an opposing car.

I was doing 80mph heading into Dublin (back in the late '80s, when such feats were possible) and the driver's side mirror got clipped by a car doing around the same speed in the other direction. That was on a four-lane road in Fairview.

As for those country roads, I always liked driving them back in the day. This pic shows us following a friend on a road in Cavan. They don't leave room for error!




Laura33

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4163 on: December 02, 2024, 11:28:18 AM »
On the other hand, without an HOA your neighbor could start a car salvage yard, or any number of annoyances that greatly reduce your property value, just after you buy.

LOL in 90% of developments you can't even build a multi-apartment house, but you think it allows to build an industry there?

Also if you are concerned about property value, you are doing it wrong if you don't live the life a fixer-upper that moves to a new one once you repair the old.

Actually, in Houston, the largest US city without zoning, it is fully possible.  There are all kinds of crazy combinations that you see; they look weird because they don't follow the typical rules.

https://www.houstontx.gov/planning/DevelopRegs/#develop

That's sort of the point.  Most places have chosen to be regulated by an elected local government, which establishes basic zoning codes so that you can't build a scrapyard in the middle of a residential neighborhood.

But some areas have chosen to retain all property usage rights to themselves instead of trusting a government entity of any type.  Except people in those areas still don't want to live next to a scrapyard.  So developers have jumped in with large developments and HOAs to meet that need. 

The difference is that the authority of the local government is limited by state law/constitutions.  Private entities like HOAs are not (because private property).  Ergo, HOA boards have much more ability to control even the smallest thing about the homes built in that neighborhood -- green yard instead of xeriscaping, no visible satellite dishes, "approved" architectural styles, minimum home sizes (one place we used to live required at least 3,000'!), pre-selected external color choices, only white window blinds/shades (the part visible from the street), holiday decorations, etc. 

Imagine if your local zoning board tried to tell you you couldn't put your Christmas lights up (as my condo association does).  The community would revolt over government overreach.  But there's only minimal grumbling if an HOA does it.  If that isn't cutting off your nose to spite your face, I don't know what is.

So, no, in my neighborhood, no one can build a salvage yard next to me, and I can install whatever color drapes and whatever holiday decorations I choose.  Because my area doesn't despise the very concept of some reasonable degree of government authority over private property -- and yet the fact that it is the government, whose authority is limited by state law, and whose representatives face being voted out of office if they piss off their constituents, compels more restraint in the rules they adopt.

Sugaree

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4164 on: December 03, 2024, 05:00:30 AM »
What a lot of people don't think about with HOAs is that you're only one or two board elections away from going from a reasonable set of rules to something untenable.  A friend of mine ran into this.  When she moved in, the HOA was pretty chill and hands-off.  The fees were low enough and paid for the upkeep of the common areas and a couple of neighborhood BBQs a year at the clubhouse.  Fast forward 5 or 6 years and a couple of new board members get elected.  Not only were her fees nearly 30% higher, she was getting multiple violation notes for her yard despite not doing anything differently (the suspicion was that one of the board members was trying to steer business to a family member's landscaping company) and was having to do stupid stuff like putting luminaries on her curb every xmas eve because "it's pretty if the whole neighborhood does it and builds neighborhood unity."  Eventually, all the original homeowners got sick of it and voted for a new board, but it was a headache. 

AlanStache

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4165 on: December 04, 2024, 09:16:18 AM »
What a lot of people don't think about with HOAs is that you're only one or two board elections away from going from a reasonable set of rules to something untenable.  A friend of mine ran into this.  When she moved in, the HOA was pretty chill and hands-off.  The fees were low enough and paid for the upkeep of the common areas and a couple of neighborhood BBQs a year at the clubhouse.  Fast forward 5 or 6 years and a couple of new board members get elected.  Not only were her fees nearly 30% higher, she was getting multiple violation notes for her yard despite not doing anything differently (the suspicion was that one of the board members was trying to steer business to a family member's landscaping company) and was having to do stupid stuff like putting luminaries on her curb every xmas eve because "it's pretty if the whole neighborhood does it and builds neighborhood unity."  Eventually, all the original homeowners got sick of it and voted for a new board, but it was a headache.

Good explanation of why people should be involved in the HOA governing process.  Speak at meetings, vote. 


TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4166 on: December 04, 2024, 01:13:25 PM »
What a lot of people don't think about with HOAs is that you're only one or two board elections away from going from a reasonable set of rules to something untenable.  A friend of mine ran into this.  When she moved in, the HOA was pretty chill and hands-off.  The fees were low enough and paid for the upkeep of the common areas and a couple of neighborhood BBQs a year at the clubhouse.  Fast forward 5 or 6 years and a couple of new board members get elected.  Not only were her fees nearly 30% higher, she was getting multiple violation notes for her yard despite not doing anything differently (the suspicion was that one of the board members was trying to steer business to a family member's landscaping company) and was having to do stupid stuff like putting luminaries on her curb every xmas eve because "it's pretty if the whole neighborhood does it and builds neighborhood unity."  Eventually, all the original homeowners got sick of it and voted for a new board, but it was a headache.

This sort of thing can happen in any long-term contractual relationship. It helps to stay present and engaged, but you can't completely prevent turnover in the decision makers on the other end of the deal.

41_swish

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4167 on: December 04, 2024, 01:40:11 PM »
HOAs seem tyrannical. When I buy, I think a no HOA community is top priority.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4168 on: December 04, 2024, 02:04:35 PM »
HOAs seem tyrannical. When I buy, I think a no HOA community is top priority.
I agree!

Our current house has a voluntary HOA, meaning you can quit whenever you want.   They do some useful stuff but have no authority to be annoying at my expense.

41_swish

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4169 on: December 05, 2024, 11:22:34 AM »
I just can't wrap my mind around HOAs because my parents' house was outside of city limits so they could do almost anything they wanted. There was certainly pros and cons to that with our neighbors, but compared to the stuff I have read about HOAs I would take the nonsense from the neighbors any day.

I am destined to rent for probably the rest of my 20s, so I have time to figure out the house situation.

ATtiny85

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4170 on: December 05, 2024, 01:22:29 PM »
I just can't wrap my mind around HOAs because my parents' house was outside of city limits so they could do almost anything they wanted. There was certainly pros and cons to that with our neighbors, but compared to the stuff I have read about HOAs I would take the nonsense from the neighbors any day.

I am destined to rent for probably the rest of my 20s, so I have time to figure out the house situation.

Having done a bunch of corporate relos over the past 25 years, I have found the most difficult thing sometimes is just getting the HOA documents prior to closing. We learned a long time ago to always write that into our offer, no HOA docs, no deal. Knowing what you are in for is at least an important factor. It’s one thing to not be able to build a shed without getting color approval, but it’s another to not be able to have your garage door open for four hours straight on Saturday while rebuilding an engine in the garage.

farmecologist

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4171 on: December 06, 2024, 12:20:05 PM »
HOAs seem tyrannical. When I buy, I think a no HOA community is top priority.
I agree!

Our current house has a voluntary HOA, meaning you can quit whenever you want.   They do some useful stuff but have no authority to be annoying at my expense.

Yep...when we built our house, it was a top priority to NOT be in a neighborhood with a HOA.  Nearly everyone I know that is in a HOA doesn't have great things to say about them!


geekette

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4172 on: December 06, 2024, 01:10:00 PM »
I don't have any bad things to say about our HOA.  We've been here over 30 years.  Our dues, which include a pool, clubhouse, tennis courts, some landscaping and trails, are $50/month. 

The only time I've known them to get involved with anything was when there was a house abandoned due to divorce or bankruptcy, I forget.  Holes in the walls, squatters...  It was eventually torn down and now there's a new house on that lot. 

41_swish

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4173 on: December 06, 2024, 01:47:44 PM »
I have actually heard of some people having mostly positive experiences with HOAs. It just seems like YMMV.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4174 on: December 06, 2024, 02:36:55 PM »
I have actually heard of some people having mostly positive experiences with HOAs. It just seems like YMMV.
It's very much YMMV.  Our HOA is a lot like geekette's--it mostly exists to maintain common areas and organize activities.  Yes, there are a bunch of rules that I wish would go away, and there are some (*cough* older *cough*) residents who have nothing better to do  than rat out neighbors for trivial violations, but it's generally reasonable.

reeshau

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4175 on: December 06, 2024, 06:11:48 PM »
I have actually heard of some people having mostly positive experiences with HOAs. It just seems like YMMV.
It's very much YMMV.  Our HOA is a lot like geekette's--it mostly exists to maintain common areas and organize activities.  Yes, there are a bunch of rules that I wish would go away, and there are some (*cough* older *cough*) residents who have nothing better to do  than rat out neighbors for trivial violations, but it's generally reasonable.

We had a retired lawyer in a former neighborhood with an HOA.

'nough said.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4176 on: December 07, 2024, 09:01:39 AM »
I have actually heard of some people having mostly positive experiences with HOAs. It just seems like YMMV.
It's very much YMMV.  Our HOA is a lot like geekette's--it mostly exists to maintain common areas and organize activities.  Yes, there are a bunch of rules that I wish would go away, and there are some (*cough* older *cough*) residents who have nothing better to do  than rat out neighbors for trivial violations, but it's generally reasonable.

We had a retired lawyer in a former neighborhood with an HOA.

'nough said.

In my last one, the umm said resident got voted off the board and shoved out of power by newer residents.  They kept trying to come back and did have some support from some residents but not enough to make it back on the board by the time I sold.

41_swish

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4177 on: January 25, 2025, 09:53:26 PM »
I have actually heard of some people having mostly positive experiences with HOAs. It just seems like YMMV.
It's very much YMMV.  Our HOA is a lot like geekette's--it mostly exists to maintain common areas and organize activities.  Yes, there are a bunch of rules that I wish would go away, and there are some (*cough* older *cough*) residents who have nothing better to do  than rat out neighbors for trivial violations, but it's generally reasonable.

We had a retired lawyer in a former neighborhood with an HOA.

'nough said.

In my last one, the umm said resident got voted off the board and shoved out of power by newer residents.  They kept trying to come back and did have some support from some residents but not enough to make it back on the board by the time I sold.
I keep hearing horror stories about HOAs from my coworkers. Makes me think renting isn't so bad. There is no need for me to rush into a crappy cookie cutter home in a suburban HOA

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4178 on: January 26, 2025, 06:47:43 AM »
I keep hearing horror stories about HOAs from my coworkers. Makes me think renting isn't so bad. There is no need for me to rush into a crappy cookie cutter home in a suburban HOA

There are plenty of nice neighborhoods around the country that don't have an HOA. I've made a point of avoiding HOAs and never had a problem doing it. 

The only time I owned a house in an HOA was when my mom died and I inherited it.  I owned it less than 6 months and they were a pain in the ass.

I'm sure there are some areas where that's almost impossible (and I don't care where they are).

techwiz

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4179 on: January 26, 2025, 09:13:13 AM »
On Friday at work a co-worker was talking about buying a new vehicle before tariffs drive the prices up.  His current one is just a little over a year old and he is still making payments.  He knows it is not the best financial idea, but he does want a new type of vehicle and is justifying the bad financial decision by saying if the prices rise by 25% he wouldn't be able to get financing to get the type of vehicle he wants.... 

I gently made a few comments on the huge depreciation hit he will be taking on his current vehicle and how he shouldn't tell dealers that he is in a rush to buy before Feb 1st.  Also that there could be lots of people looking to get out of leases and vehicle loans if a big recession hits Canada if these 25% tariff become a reality.  Waiting to see if next week I see him driving a new vehicle into the office. 

41_swish

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #4180 on: January 26, 2025, 07:16:57 PM »
I keep hearing horror stories about HOAs from my coworkers. Makes me think renting isn't so bad. There is no need for me to rush into a crappy cookie cutter home in a suburban HOA

There are plenty of nice neighborhoods around the country that don't have an HOA. I've made a point of avoiding HOAs and never had a problem doing it. 

The only time I owned a house in an HOA was when my mom died and I inherited it.  I owned it less than 6 months and they were a pain in the ass.

I'm sure there are some areas where that's almost impossible (and I don't care where they are).
Maybe it's because that is what all the new builds are here in CO. Honestly, I just need to look at older fixer uppers in non HOA communities