Overheard at Work 2

[Plina]

What I meant was that if you marry someone that is going to be a stay at home spouse, you kind of also accept the paying of alimoney with your legal system. That is a choice.

I agree, but you don't need to be a stay at home spouse (or a parent) to sue (and win) spousal support in Oregon. Although obviously there needs to be a disparity in earning power. Also, if someone comes after you with one of these suits you might end up paying more money to your lawyer to stop it than you would have actually paid in support (or the other way around: paid more to your lawyer than you got in support), which just makes me think that the whole system is broken. Personally. Also, the suit could take years.

Here spousal support is unusal at least long term because you are expected to support yourself and child support ends when the kids are out of high school. Also the looser in the legal battle pays the legal fees. I worked in court and I thought the child custody cases were an excellent birthcontrol because that is thing to battle about here. That at least ends after 18 years. You really realised the price of choosing the wrong spouse. But at least you don’t need to support him or her long term.

One woman had custody battles with two men in parallell. One of the men was a one night stand from a cruise. She had some mental problems and lost both cases. In another case there was four possible fathers to the child. The last one, that was the lucky father, the police had to force to DNA-testing. Lucky child!

What happens when/if the ex-spouse dies? You need to find a new one that supports you?

I

[PDXTabs]

Here spousal support is unusal at least long term because you are expected to support yourself and child support ends when the kids are out of high school. Also the looser in the legal battle pays the legal fees. I worked in court and I thought the child custody cases were an excellent birthcontrol because that is thing to battle about here. That at least ends after 18 years. You really realised the price of choosing the wrong spouse. But at least you don’t need to support him or her long term.

As it should be. We call that "transitional" support in Oregon. I'm not opposed to it when it is actually needed. I'm also fine paying child support. Depending on the situation it might not be "fair" but hey, they're your kids, and you get to help raise them.

What happens when/if the ex-spouse dies? You need to find a new one that supports you?

Around here you would be compelled by court order to buy life insurance for the other party. Of course that only works if you are insurable.

[Plina]

Here spousal support is unusal at least long term because you are expected to support yourself and child support ends when the kids are out of high school. Also the looser in the legal battle pays the legal fees. I worked in court and I thought the child custody cases were an excellent birthcontrol because that is thing to battle about here. That at least ends after 18 years. You really realised the price of choosing the wrong spouse. But at least you don’t need to support him or her long term.

As it should be. We call that "transitional" support in Oregon. I'm not opposed to it when it is actually needed. I'm also fine paying child support. Depending on the situation it might not be "fair" but hey, they're your kids, and you get to help raise them.

What happens when/if the ex-spouse dies? You need to find a new one that supports you?

Around here you would be compelled by court order to buy life insurance for the other party. Of course that only works if you are insurable.

What kind of situation would not make it fair? Why would it be the responsibility of the other parent to ”help” raise their own kids? Is it not a joint responsibility?

[PDXTabs]

Here spousal support is unusal at least long term because you are expected to support yourself and child support ends when the kids are out of high school. Also the looser in the legal battle pays the legal fees. I worked in court and I thought the child custody cases were an excellent birthcontrol because that is thing to battle about here. That at least ends after 18 years. You really realised the price of choosing the wrong spouse. But at least you don’t need to support him or her long term.

As it should be. We call that "transitional" support in Oregon. I'm not opposed to it when it is actually needed. I'm also fine paying child support. Depending on the situation it might not be "fair" but hey, they're your kids, and you get to help raise them.

What happens when/if the ex-spouse dies? You need to find a new one that supports you?

Around here you would be compelled by court order to buy life insurance for the other party. Of course that only works if you are insurable.

What kind of situation would not make it fair? Why would it be the responsibility of the other parent to ”help” raise their own kids? Is it not a joint responsibility?

I would say situations surrounding "imputed income" which is when you argue in court about how much the other person could be making even though they aren't. You are basically compelled by the courts to make absolutely as much money as possible for the duration of the child support order.*

* - because that's what's best for the children
** - but not how many married couples live their lives

EDITed to add that the other dumb thing you can end up arguing about in court for $$$$$ is a remarried spouse who receives substantial economic benefit from their new spouse.

[Plina]

Here spousal support is unusal at least long term because you are expected to support yourself and child support ends when the kids are out of high school. Also the looser in the legal battle pays the legal fees. I worked in court and I thought the child custody cases were an excellent birthcontrol because that is thing to battle about here. That at least ends after 18 years. You really realised the price of choosing the wrong spouse. But at least you don’t need to support him or her long term.

As it should be. We call that "transitional" support in Oregon. I'm not opposed to it when it is actually needed. I'm also fine paying child support. Depending on the situation it might not be "fair" but hey, they're your kids, and you get to help raise them.

What happens when/if the ex-spouse dies? You need to find a new one that supports you?

Around here you would be compelled by court order to buy life insurance for the other party. Of course that only works if you are insurable.

What kind of situation would not make it fair? Why would it be the responsibility of the other parent to ”help” raise their own kids? Is it not a joint responsibility?

I would say situations surrounding "imputed income" which is when you argue in court about how much the other person could be making even though they aren't. You are basically compelled by the courts to make absolutely as much money as possible for the duration of the child support order.*

* - because that's what's best for the children
** - but not how many married couples live their lives

EDITed to add that the other dumb thing you can end up arguing about in court for $$$$$ is a remarried spouse who receives substantial economic benefit from their new spouse.

I agree about the imputed income. Though I mightt understand that in cases like above when someone gives up a career and wants the exspouse to support them. I don’t think that would be possible here. The child has right to maintain the lifestyle of the spouse with the loftier lifestyle but if that spouse decides to do a career change I guess the amount could be changed.

Do you mean that the spousal support continues after someone have been remarried? That doesnt seem fair. But it should not change the childsupport because why should the new spouse need to support someone else kids.

[PDXTabs]

Do you mean that the spousal support continues after someone have been remarried? That doesnt seem fair. But it should not change the childsupport because why should the new spouse need to support someone else kids.

No, I actually mean child support. Keeping in mind that child support is basically an equalization payment so that the children can maintain a good standard of living at both houses there is a bunch of math in the Oregon child support calculator for what they call "self-support." But this math (arguably) breaks down if all of the costs of living are subsidized for one of the spouses because of remarriage (or cohabitation).

I'll just make up an example where my ex-wife moves in with Elon Musk and although on paper she makes $0* he gives her a joint CC and she buys whatever she wants with it and doesn't pay any rent. Although Mr Musk would have no obligation to support my children he has already (in my made up example) decided to support the mother. So suddenly the amount that I'm paying the mother isn't really just or reasonable for the benefit of the children. I could go to court and ask a judge to please fix that for the benefit of my children, and the judge would probably agree. But in the mean time Musk could hire an army of lawyers for the mom and they could go through all my bank statements and tax returns and depose me and ask me a bunch of questions about them just to fuck with me.

The other time that the Oregon child support calculator stops making sense is when one parent (or child) has a bunch of assets, because all the math is based on income. In Oregon parents need to pay child support though 21 years of age if the child goes to college, but does that makes sense if they have a pile of money that they inherited from their grandparent? I don't actually know of any cases like that that have been litigated, but I haven't looked very hard.

Also, because the calculator is based on income you are discouraged from ever realizing any gains, even if you were going to take those gains and put them into your child's Roth IRA.

This post isn't legal advice, it's just life advice to never get married and not have have kids with someone unless you really really trust them. I'm actually on very good terms with my ex-wife and we've never spent a dime on attorneys because we are both reasonable (enough) people.

* - most likely imputed up to minimum wage

[Plina]

Do you mean that the spousal support continues after someone have been remarried? That doesnt seem fair. But it should not change the childsupport because why should the new spouse need to support someone else kids.

No, I actually mean child support. Keeping in mind that child support is basically an equalization payment so that the children can maintain a good standard of living at both houses there is a bunch of math in the Oregon child support calculator for what they call "self-support." But this math (arguably) breaks down if all of the costs of living are subsidized for one of the spouses because of remarriage (or cohabitation).

I'll just make up an example where my ex-wife moves in with Elon Musk and although on paper she makes $0 he gives her a joint CC and she buys whatever she wants with it and doesn't pay any rent. Although Mr Musk would have no obligation to support my children he has already (in my made up example) decided to support the mother. So suddenly the amount that I'm paying the mother isn't really just or reasonable for the benefit of the children. I could go to court and ask a judge to please fix that for the benefit of my children, and the judge would probably agree. But in the mean time Musk could hire an army of lawyers for the mom and they could go through all my bank statements and tax returns and depose me and ask me a bunch of questions about them just to fuck with me.

The other time that the Oregon child support calculator stops making sense is when one parent (or child) has a bunch of assets, because all the math is based on income. In Oregon parents need to pay child support though 21 years of age if the child goes to college, but does that makes sense if they have a pile of money that they inherited from their grandparent? I don't actually know of any cases like that that have been litigated, but I haven't looked very hard.

Also, because the calculator is based on income you are discouraged from ever realizing any gains, even if you were going to take those gains and put them into your child's Roth IRA.

This post isn't legal advice, it's just life advice to never get married and not have have kids with someone unless you really really trust them. I'm actually on very good terms with my ex-wife and we've never spent a dime on attorneys because we are both reasonable (enough) people.

That makes sense. It is pretty interesting that someone can choose not to work and that would be to their advantage in determining child support.

I think everyone that divorces with kids should have ten hours with a therapist before so they can deal with their issues there instead of being an ass in the child custody case because they want revenge for some past shit.

[PDXTabs]

I think everyone that divorces with kids should have ten hours with a therapist before so they can deal with their issues there instead of being an ass in the child custody case because they want revenge for some past shit.

A lot of Oregon counties now require parenting classes before the divorce is final. I'm a huge fan of this, but seriously, county by county with different requirements in each county? Also, we're talking about 2~5 hours where an adoption requires 10 hours for the whole state. I can probably stop ranting about family law now.

[Freedomin5]

Those ex-wives stories. We had a town scrap metal man that lived in his pickup truck. Told people he was an educated man but chose to make no money so his ex would get no part of his income.

Always seemed a sad, miserable way to live when there were better alternatives.

We lived at a marina that had a bitter old men's club. They would turn the lounge TV to sports, complain about Democrats and immigrants and whine about their ex wives.

Seems a bit ridiculous to complain about something that they could have avoided. And in a way also sad to let someone from the past to rule your current life.

It's actually surprisingly easy to end up in a situation where (depending on where you live) you are paying palimony, perpetual spousal support, or have a prenup thrown out without ever knowing that it was coming. I’m very sympathetic to people who get drug through a divorce that goes bad. I personally know people in all three of those situations.

I know people on the other side. Ex-husband cheated on her. When she filed for divorce, he quit his high-paying IT job and took a low-paying warehouse job so that he could avoid paying child support for his three young kids. Wife had to move in with her parents, and then found a job so she could feed and clothe the kids. He then sued her for alimony because "she's making more money". Sometimes divorce is just really messy.

What I meant was that if you marry someone that is going to be a stay at home spouse, you kind of also accept the paying of alimoney with your legal system. That is a choice.

I guess marrying an ass is also a choice but you might find out to late. Did he manage to get alimoney? Seems lika a really dysfunctional legal system!

I think they’re still sorting it out in court. He’s claiming that he “wanted a career change” from being an IT guy making over $100k a year to being an Amazon warehouse worker making minimum wage.

[SunnyDays]

Those ex-wives stories. We had a town scrap metal man that lived in his pickup truck. Told people he was an educated man but chose to make no money so his ex would get no part of his income.

Always seemed a sad, miserable way to live when there were better alternatives.

We lived at a marina that had a bitter old men's club. They would turn the lounge TV to sports, complain about Democrats and immigrants and whine about their ex wives.

Seems a bit ridiculous to complain about something that they could have avoided. And in a way also sad to let someone from the past to rule your current life.

It's actually surprisingly easy to end up in a situation where (depending on where you live) you are paying palimony, perpetual spousal support, or have a prenup thrown out without ever knowing that it was coming. I’m very sympathetic to people who get drug through a divorce that goes bad. I personally know people in all three of those situations.

I know people on the other side. Ex-husband cheated on her. When she filed for divorce, he quit his high-paying IT job and took a low-paying warehouse job so that he could avoid paying child support for his three young kids. Wife had to move in with her parents, and then found a job so she could feed and clothe the kids. He then sued her for alimony because "she's making more money". Sometimes divorce is just really messy.

What I meant was that if you marry someone that is going to be a stay at home spouse, you kind of also accept the paying of alimoney with your legal system. That is a choice.

I guess marrying an ass is also a choice but you might find out to late. Did he manage to get alimoney? Seems lika a really dysfunctional legal system!

I think they’re still sorting it out in court. He’s claiming that he “wanted a career change” from being an IT guy making over $100k a year to being an Amazon warehouse worker making minimum wage.

With any luck, that idiot decision comes back to bite him in future, when he has fallen far behind in IT knowledge and is stuck in low paying jobs for the rest of his life.  Some people are just so short sighted, never mind vengeful.

[CTEC_Stache]

This may not be too big of an "overheard at work" but I have one from a few years ago.

I am a teacher in a state with a rather "safe" pension. As such myself and my colleagues have access to a 403(b), Roth 403(b), 457, and obviously both IRA options. It is pretty easy to retire at a normal age of 60 with minimal personal investment due to our pension.

A couple of years ago the topic of the lottery came up between a few co-workers. Someone asked, "How much would you have to win today to be able to retire." I was only 28 and I said something to the tune of $2 mil could provide a pretty comfortable life for another 60 years if I was careful.

Two others, both in their 50s, were blown away by my answer and said if they got $2 mil today they wouldn't be able to retire. I tried to explain to them just how much money a year you can get from $2 mil in perpetuity if you adhere to a conservative SWR. It was like talking to a brick wall.

[Gronnie]

This may not be too big of an "overheard at work" but I have one from a few years ago.

I am a teacher in a state with a rather "safe" pension. As such myself and my colleagues have access to a 403(b), Roth 403(b), 457, and obviously both IRA options. It is pretty easy to retire at a normal age of 60 with minimal personal investment due to our pension.

A couple of years ago the topic of the lottery came up between a few co-workers. Someone asked, "How much would you have to win today to be able to retire." I was only 28 and I said something to the tune of $2 mil could provide a pretty comfortable life for another 60 years if I was careful.

Two others, both in their 50s, were blown away by my answer and said if they got $2 mil today they wouldn't be able to retire. I tried to explain to them just how much money a year you can get from $2 mil in perpetuity if you adhere to a conservative SWR. It was like talking to a brick wall.

$2 million would likely provide nearly their entire salary. If they couldn't afford to retire on that then how do the manage to live currently?

[mm1970]

My co-worker--who sure seemed spendy for a long time--told me that she and her new husband have a savings rate of 22%.

Turns out it was 13% for her and 9% for him.

In that case, our savings rate is a whopping 89%! We can retire way sooner than I initially thought...

(62% + 27%)

Imagine if you and your spouse each saved 50%... You would literally be putting all of your money toward retirement!

We make jokes about it...
But it really explains why so many people utterly fail managing money, if this is what is going on.

We had a highly respected engineer who finally retired after 57 years last year. He did a very similar thing in a spreadsheet that was his baby that was used for some fairly important testing decisions. No matter how many times in many different ways we tried to explain it to him, he wouldn’t budge. And he was untouchable to the pointed hairs. So we ended up having our own tool that we used, then tweaked things just enough so that when he saw his wonderful spreadsheet he would think all was fine.

When are people taught the concept of least common denominator?

Adding fractions...so maybe 4th or 5th grade?

Yep, my son just learned that in fourth!

[dragoncar]

1/4 grade?

[CTEC_Stache]

This may not be too big of an "overheard at work" but I have one from a few years ago.

I am a teacher in a state with a rather "safe" pension. As such myself and my colleagues have access to a 403(b), Roth 403(b), 457, and obviously both IRA options. It is pretty easy to retire at a normal age of 60 with minimal personal investment due to our pension.

A couple of years ago the topic of the lottery came up between a few co-workers. Someone asked, "How much would you have to win today to be able to retire." I was only 28 and I said something to the tune of $2 mil could provide a pretty comfortable life for another 60 years if I was careful.

Two others, both in their 50s, were blown away by my answer and said if they got $2 mil today they wouldn't be able to retire. I tried to explain to them just how much money a year you can get from $2 mil in perpetuity if you adhere to a conservative SWR. It was like talking to a brick wall.

$2 million would likely provide nearly their entire salary. If they couldn't afford to retire on that then how do the manage to live currently?

My thoughts exactly. Not sure they understand how any of this works haha.

[NorthernIkigai]

This may not be too big of an "overheard at work" but I have one from a few years ago.

I am a teacher in a state with a rather "safe" pension. As such myself and my colleagues have access to a 403(b), Roth 403(b), 457, and obviously both IRA options. It is pretty easy to retire at a normal age of 60 with minimal personal investment due to our pension.

A couple of years ago the topic of the lottery came up between a few co-workers. Someone asked, "How much would you have to win today to be able to retire." I was only 28 and I said something to the tune of $2 mil could provide a pretty comfortable life for another 60 years if I was careful.

Two others, both in their 50s, were blown away by my answer and said if they got $2 mil today they wouldn't be able to retire. I tried to explain to them just how much money a year you can get from $2 mil in perpetuity if you adhere to a conservative SWR. It was like talking to a brick wall.

$2 million would likely provide nearly their entire salary. If they couldn't afford to retire on that then how do the manage to live currently?

My thoughts exactly. Not sure they understand how any of this works haha.

I think many people view their salaries as something stable and reliable (despite all the real world examples to the contrary), but income from investments as somehow insecure and dependent on the vagaries of the market (which is of course true to some extent, hence asset allocation, diversification, and the 4% rule rather than a 7% rule).

So relying on their salaries is the normal and done thing, even if it requires them to actually do something every day to keep it going. After all, this is what most people do. And for many people, getting some money portioned out every month or so is probably better than having a million or two available at once, to be honest. Many non-Mustachians would have a hard time not throwing at least 10% of that at crap, basically, just because they could. Which would mean they eventually really couldn’t manage to live on what’s left…

[Sandi_k]

This may not be too big of an "overheard at work" but I have one from a few years ago.

I am a teacher in a state with a rather "safe" pension. As such myself and my colleagues have access to a 403(b), Roth 403(b), 457, and obviously both IRA options. It is pretty easy to retire at a normal age of 60 with minimal personal investment due to our pension.

A couple of years ago the topic of the lottery came up between a few co-workers. Someone asked, "How much would you have to win today to be able to retire." I was only 28 and I said something to the tune of $2 mil could provide a pretty comfortable life for another 60 years if I was careful.

Two others, both in their 50s, were blown away by my answer and said if they got $2 mil today they wouldn't be able to retire. I tried to explain to them just how much money a year you can get from $2 mil in perpetuity if you adhere to a conservative SWR. It was like talking to a brick wall.

$2 million would likely provide nearly their entire salary. If they couldn't afford to retire on that then how do the manage to live currently?

My thoughts exactly. Not sure they understand how any of this works haha.

And why should they? Really, when those people were getting hired, pensions were normal for a lot of Americans. Even now, with the market on a crazy tear for the past 12 years, only ~ 50% of Americans have ANYTHING invested in the stock market.

For my mom, single divorcee with three kids in the 1970's, she couldn't even get an account with the WATER company; she had to have her dad co-sign the account when my dad left!!!

We are WEIRD. I think we forget that sometimes. But most people don't think about the stock market as accessible, or trustworthy, or even something that middle class folks participate in...

[Sugaree]

This may not be too big of an "overheard at work" but I have one from a few years ago.

I am a teacher in a state with a rather "safe" pension. As such myself and my colleagues have access to a 403(b), Roth 403(b), 457, and obviously both IRA options. It is pretty easy to retire at a normal age of 60 with minimal personal investment due to our pension.

A couple of years ago the topic of the lottery came up between a few co-workers. Someone asked, "How much would you have to win today to be able to retire." I was only 28 and I said something to the tune of $2 mil could provide a pretty comfortable life for another 60 years if I was careful.

Two others, both in their 50s, were blown away by my answer and said if they got $2 mil today they wouldn't be able to retire. I tried to explain to them just how much money a year you can get from $2 mil in perpetuity if you adhere to a conservative SWR. It was like talking to a brick wall.

$2 million would likely provide nearly their entire salary. If they couldn't afford to retire on that then how do the manage to live currently?

My thoughts exactly. Not sure they understand how any of this works haha.

And why should they? Really, when those people were getting hired, pensions were normal for a lot of Americans. Even now, with the market on a crazy tear for the past 12 years, only ~ 50% of Americans have ANYTHING invested in the stock market.

For my mom, single divorcee with three kids in the 1970's, she couldn't even get an account with the WATER company; she had to have her dad co-sign the account when my dad left!!!

We are WEIRD. I think we forget that sometimes. But most people don't think about the stock market as accessible, or trustworthy, or even something that middle class folks participate in...

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

[Fomerly known as something]

This may not be too big of an "overheard at work" but I have one from a few years ago.

I am a teacher in a state with a rather "safe" pension. As such myself and my colleagues have access to a 403(b), Roth 403(b), 457, and obviously both IRA options. It is pretty easy to retire at a normal age of 60 with minimal personal investment due to our pension.

A couple of years ago the topic of the lottery came up between a few co-workers. Someone asked, "How much would you have to win today to be able to retire." I was only 28 and I said something to the tune of $2 mil could provide a pretty comfortable life for another 60 years if I was careful.

Two others, both in their 50s, were blown away by my answer and said if they got $2 mil today they wouldn't be able to retire. I tried to explain to them just how much money a year you can get from $2 mil in perpetuity if you adhere to a conservative SWR. It was like talking to a brick wall.

$2 million would likely provide nearly their entire salary. If they couldn't afford to retire on that then how do the manage to live currently?

My thoughts exactly. Not sure they understand how any of this works haha.

And why should they? Really, when those people were getting hired, pensions were normal for a lot of Americans. Even now, with the market on a crazy tear for the past 12 years, only ~ 50% of Americans have ANYTHING invested in the stock market.

For my mom, single divorcee with three kids in the 1970's, she couldn't even get an account with the WATER company; she had to have her dad co-sign the account when my dad left!!!

We are WEIRD. I think we forget that sometimes. But most people don't think about the stock market as accessible, or trustworthy, or even something that middle class folks participate in...

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Unfortunately it’s not all that uncommon 33.7% of all money in the TSP is in the G fund.

[Dicey]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

[Sugaree]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him. 

[SwordGuy]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Well, if they aren't getting vaccinated the odds just went up that they've ALREADY saved enough for their retirement needs 'cause they won't live long enough to use them.

Modern problems require modern solutions...

[Dicey]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

[RetiredAt63]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

[Dicey]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

The latter, of course.

[RetiredAt63]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

The latter, of course.

Gah!  That would drive me crazy. I would be biting my tongue so hard not to say something.

Are they consistent?  No other vaccines?  No antibiotics?  No surgeries?  No dental care? Or is it just this one stupid politicized chunk of nonsense.  Um, I guess where I stand is kind of obvious    ;-)

I love modern medicine, despite it's faults.  My grandfather was one of 13 children, 11 of whom lived to adulthood.  That was the first generation with those survival rates.  Before that it would have been 13 children with 2-3 making it to adulthood.

[Kris]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

The latter, of course.

I'm assuming they took him to the hospital for care when he got bad, though. Yes?

[Dicey]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

The latter, of course.

I'm assuming they took him to the hospital for care when he got bad, though. Yes?

Yes, and my sister had the audacity to complain about the level of service they received there.

[mm1970]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

The latter, of course.

I'm assuming they took him to the hospital for care when he got bad, though. Yes?

Yes, and my sister had the audacity to complain about the level of service they received there.

Of course she did

[Fomerly known as something]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Well, if they aren't getting vaccinated the odds just went up that they've ALREADY saved enough for their retirement needs 'cause they won't live long enough to use them.

Modern problems require modern solutions...

So does he have an accommodation, is he retire or is he on his way to getting fired?

[Imma]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

The latter, of course.

I'm assuming they took him to the hospital for care when he got bad, though. Yes?

Yes, and my sister had the audacity to complain about the level of service they received there.

Of course she did

What the fundamentalist churches preach here is that you can't make an effort to prevent God's will from happening (like vaccination) but once his will has manifested, you are free to do everything in your power to prevent it from happening (like getting medical treatment).

I do wonder what these people think about smoke detectors, seatbelts and door locks though. And if God is truly omnipotent then I'm not sure a vaccine will stop him.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the loss of your BIL. Having seen a close relative die from it as well, it's an awful way to die. And it must be even harder to know it was preventable, if someone just had had common sense.

[Dicey]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

The latter, of course.

I'm assuming they took him to the hospital for care when he got bad, though. Yes?

Yes, and my sister had the audacity to complain about the level of service they received there.

Of course she did

What the fundamentalist churches preach here is that you can't make an effort to prevent God's will from happening (like vaccination) but once his will has manifested, you are free to do everything in your power to prevent it from happening (like getting medical treatment).

I do wonder what these people think about smoke detectors, seatbelts and door locks though. And if God is truly omnipotent then I'm not sure a vaccine will stop him.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the loss of your BIL. Having seen a close relative die from it as well, it's an awful way to die. And it must be even harder to know it was preventable, if someone just had had common sense.

Amen.

[LennStar]

What the fundamentalist churches preach here is that you can't make an effort to prevent God's will from happening (like vaccination) but once his will has manifested, you are free to do everything in your power to prevent it from happening (like getting medical treatment).

So if it is God's will that we find a vaccine, isn't not taking it going against God's will when you should not?

I guess that is another of those times of "being stupid by trying to understand religion with logic"

[Freedomin5]

What the fundamentalist churches preach here is that you can't make an effort to prevent God's will from happening (like vaccination) but once his will has manifested, you are free to do everything in your power to prevent it from happening (like getting medical treatment).

So if it is God's will that we find a vaccine, isn't not taking it going against God's will when you should not?

I guess that is another of those times of "being stupid by trying to understand religion with logic"

This seems rather appropriate...

A farmer is stranded during a flood. The river is overflowing. Water is surrounding the farmer’s home up to his front porch. As he is standing there, a boat comes up. The man in the boat says, “Jump in, and I’ll take you to safety.”

The farmer crosses his arms and says stubbornly, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.” The boat goes away. The water rises to the second story. Another boat comes up. The man says to the farmer, who is now at the second floor window, “Hurry, jump in. I’ll save you.”

The farmer again says, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.”

The boat goes away. Now the water is inching over the roof. As the farmer stands on the roof, a helicopter comes over, and drops a ladder. The pilot yells down to the farmer, “I’ll save you. Climb the ladder.”

The farmer yells back, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.”

The helicopter goes away. The water continues to rise and sweeps the farmer off the roof into the swiftly moving water. Unfortunately, he drowns.

The farmer goes to heaven. God sees him and says, “What are you doing here?”

The farmer says, “I put my trust in you, and you let me down.”

God says, “What do you mean, let you down? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!”

[Imma]

What the fundamentalist churches preach here is that you can't make an effort to prevent God's will from happening (like vaccination) but once his will has manifested, you are free to do everything in your power to prevent it from happening (like getting medical treatment).

So if it is God's will that we find a vaccine, isn't not taking it going against God's will when you should not?

I guess that is another of those times of "being stupid by trying to understand religion with logic"

But what if we are defying God by creating vaccines?

These people have actually thought about this issue a lot and to the it makes perfect sense. They also don't believe in getting any type of insurance for example. It's just hard to understand for those of us who don't share these specific views. I think it's a very fascinating group of people (the Dutch Reformed Church) because they aren't idiots. They study the Bible, theology and history extremely thoroughly and have a strong culture of internal debate. And still they end up having these views that outsiders are completely unable to understand.

I do think they lock their doors, but seriously, when car seatbelts were first made mandatory, it was a big issue for them. A couple of decades later, most of them do wear them. But any kind of vaccination has always been a no-no, even after several epidemics of polio in their community. If polio isn't gruesome enough for them to want to get vaccines, then Covid certainly isn't. 

[snowball]

But what if we are defying God by creating vaccines?

These people have actually thought about this issue a lot and to the it makes perfect sense. They also don't believe in getting any type of insurance for example. It's just hard to understand for those of us who don't share these specific views. I think it's a very fascinating group of people (the Dutch Reformed Church) because they aren't idiots. They study the Bible, theology and history extremely thoroughly and have a strong culture of internal debate. And still they end up having these views that outsiders are completely unable to understand.

I do think they lock their doors, but seriously, when car seatbelts were first made mandatory, it was a big issue for them. A couple of decades later, most of them do wear them. But any kind of vaccination has always been a no-no, even after several epidemics of polio in their community. If polio isn't gruesome enough for them to want to get vaccines, then Covid certainly isn't.

"It's God's will for you to choose not to protect your children from getting polio and dying or getting paralyzed for the rest of their lives"...because God is some kind of sadistic psychopath, and you should definitely continue worshipping such an entity.  Yeah, no wonder outsiders can't understand it.  It sounds like a twisted justification for a bunch of institutionalized abuse.  I believe you that they've debated it and thought about it, but they must have some very messed up foundational assumptions about the universe and morality.

[Kris]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Okay then. My sister and her family are fundies. Her husband died of Covid the week before last. None of them are vaccinated.

My condolences re your BiL.  Will they be vaccinated now?  Or is his death "God's will"?

The latter, of course.

I'm assuming they took him to the hospital for care when he got bad, though. Yes?

Yes, and my sister had the audacity to complain about the level of service they received there.

I knew this would be the answer. And yet, it still pissed me the hell off to read it.

[DadJokes]

But what if we are defying God by creating vaccines?

These people have actually thought about this issue a lot and to the it makes perfect sense. They also don't believe in getting any type of insurance for example. It's just hard to understand for those of us who don't share these specific views. I think it's a very fascinating group of people (the Dutch Reformed Church) because they aren't idiots. They study the Bible, theology and history extremely thoroughly and have a strong culture of internal debate. And still they end up having these views that outsiders are completely unable to understand.

I do think they lock their doors, but seriously, when car seatbelts were first made mandatory, it was a big issue for them. A couple of decades later, most of them do wear them. But any kind of vaccination has always been a no-no, even after several epidemics of polio in their community. If polio isn't gruesome enough for them to want to get vaccines, then Covid certainly isn't.

"It's God's will for you to choose not to protect your children from getting polio and dying or getting paralyzed for the rest of their lives"...because God is some kind of sadistic psychopath, and you should definitely continue worshipping such an entity.  Yeah, no wonder outsiders can't understand it.  It sounds like a twisted justification for a bunch of institutionalized abuse.  I believe you that they've debated it and thought about it, but they must have some very messed up foundational assumptions about the universe and morality.

I think it's difficult to read the Bible and not come to the conclusion that God is some kind of sadistic psychopath.

[Sugaree]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Well, if they aren't getting vaccinated the odds just went up that they've ALREADY saved enough for their retirement needs 'cause they won't live long enough to use them.

Modern problems require modern solutions...

So does he have an accommodation, is he retire or is he on his way to getting fired?

I'm sure that he's requested an accommodation like 2/3 of the rest of our agencies.  I'm curious as to how this is going to play out.  The way the accommodation form is written makes it seem like almost no one is going to get it approved.  But who knows?  This is deep deep red country.

[Freedomin5]

Back on topic...

I live in Shanghai. Our company has recommended that no one leave the city over the Christmas season, mainly because the laws here are quite strict, and if you travel somewhere which ends up being a medium or high risk area (even one COVID case in the neighborhood will turn the neighborhood into a medium risk area), you will be forced to quarantine for two weeks either at your vacation destination or when you return to Shanghai, and the company cannot afford to have large groups of employees away from work (most of us have to be physically present to do our jobs).

The anti-Mustachian piece is that many people booked non-refundable vacations to Sanya (a warm, tropical, beachy part of China) a few months ago. Now they are all freaking out because everyone is cancelling their traveling plans, and they're stuck with a $$$ vacation package to a five-star resort hotel.

I'm like, "Folks, if you're in the middle of a pandemic and living in a country that can get locked down at a moment's notice, pay that extra few hundred dollars and get a refundable package." Or make a decision to do a staycation. I can understand their desire to get away though...it's been a long pandemic.

[dragoncar]

Back on topic...

I live in Shanghai. Our company has recommended that no one leave the city over the Christmas season, mainly because the laws here are quite strict, and if you travel somewhere which ends up being a medium or high risk area (even one COVID case in the neighborhood will turn the neighborhood into a medium risk area), you will be forced to quarantine for two weeks either at your vacation destination or when you return to Shanghai, and the company cannot afford to have large groups of employees away from work (most of us have to be physically present to do our jobs).

The anti-Mustachian piece is that many people booked non-refundable vacations to Sanya (a warm, tropical, beachy part of China) a few months ago. Now they are all freaking out because everyone is cancelling their traveling plans, and they're stuck with a $$$ vacation package to a five-star resort hotel.

I'm like, "Folks, if you're in the middle of a pandemic and living in a country that can get locked down at a moment's notice, pay that extra few hundred dollars and get a refundable package." Or make a decision to do a staycation. I can understand their desire to get away though...it's been a long pandemic.

Or (Covid aside, which I know is a big aside)  just go and risk losing two weeks of income?  I’m guessing the vacation cost more than a couple weeks salary

Unless “recommend” is code for “order”

[Adventine]

@dragoncar but it's impossible, no one can afford to lose two weeks of income! /s

[Freedomin5]

Back on topic...

I live in Shanghai. Our company has recommended that no one leave the city over the Christmas season, mainly because the laws here are quite strict, and if you travel somewhere which ends up being a medium or high risk area (even one COVID case in the neighborhood will turn the neighborhood into a medium risk area), you will be forced to quarantine for two weeks either at your vacation destination or when you return to Shanghai, and the company cannot afford to have large groups of employees away from work (most of us have to be physically present to do our jobs).

The anti-Mustachian piece is that many people booked non-refundable vacations to Sanya (a warm, tropical, beachy part of China) a few months ago. Now they are all freaking out because everyone is cancelling their traveling plans, and they're stuck with a $$$ vacation package to a five-star resort hotel.

I'm like, "Folks, if you're in the middle of a pandemic and living in a country that can get locked down at a moment's notice, pay that extra few hundred dollars and get a refundable package." Or make a decision to do a staycation. I can understand their desire to get away though...it's been a long pandemic.

Or (Covid aside, which I know is a big aside)  just go and risk losing two weeks of income?  I’m guessing the vacation cost more than a couple weeks salary

Unless “recommend” is code for “order”

Yeah, it's "strongly recommend"...but, if you do end up going to a medium/high risk area, you:

1. Lose two weeks of income
2. Could be marked as being in breach of contract (which you are, because our contracts clearly state the number of days we are expected to be at work), and
3. Risk not having your contract renewed the following year.

Also, your two-week mandatory quarantine in a government facility is on your own dime. And the government facilities here mainly serve local Chinese food...and possibly KFC...and may or may not meet international standards of comfort. Most expats were also planning to travel with kids, so they definitely do not look forward to the possibility of being locked in a standard size hotel room for two weeks with their kid(s). Also, it's only one adult per room, so either mom or dad will have the pleasure of keeping cooped up young kids occupied while getting NAT tests every few days.

Basically, the people who selected non-refundable packages are losing about USD$2000 for a week-long vacation.

@dragoncar but it's impossible, no one can afford to lose two weeks of income! /s

LOL! So true! They may have to give up their weekly massage and won't be able to pay their dog-nanny!

[Fomerly known as something]

One of my son's friend's dad has a TSP account which he has only contributed to the G fund (guaranteed returns, but doesn't beat inflation) because "the stock market is gambling."  He's kind of a fundie so I'm not sure if he really believes that or if he got burned in 2008.

Fundie = Fundamentalist?

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

Well, if they aren't getting vaccinated the odds just went up that they've ALREADY saved enough for their retirement needs 'cause they won't live long enough to use them.

Modern problems require modern solutions...

So does he have an accommodation, is he retire or is he on his way to getting fired?

I'm sure that he's requested an accommodation like 2/3 of the rest of our agencies.  I'm curious as to how this is going to play out.  The way the accommodation form is written makes it seem like almost no one is going to get it approved.  But who knows?  This is deep deep red country.

Seriously that low?  We are above 95% and I’m not exactly in a “ liberal” work place.

[Just Joe]

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

So the vaccine most of us already have had will kill us at some point in the future? I had not heard this angle yet.

[Sugaree]

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

So the vaccine most of us already have had will kill us at some point in the future? I had not heard this angle yet.

I've heard from a small number of people that everyone who has had the vaccine will be dead within three years.  Stupid qanon shit.

[Taran Wanderer]

So weird. The actual statistics are indicating that of the people who were hospitalized with severe Covid but survived and went home, 50% die within 12 months. It’s so wrong that people are making stuff up that is not just untrue but is the near opposite of reality.

[SwordGuy]

So weird. The actual statistics are indicating that of the people who were hospitalized with severe Covid but survived and went home, 50% die within 12 months. It’s so wrong that people are making stuff up that is not just untrue but is the near opposite of reality.

Source?

[LennStar]

Yep.  This is the same dad who's son has been telling my child that the covid vaccine is going to kill him.

So the vaccine most of us already have had will kill us at some point in the future? I had not heard this angle yet.

I've heard from a small number of people that everyone who has had the vaccine will be dead within three years.  Stupid qanon shit.

At least it has gone up from the 6 month I heard - for quite obvious reasons.
It's full in line with all those "the world will end at..." and then 5 days after the end of the world they find out that they have miscalculated the date all the years.

[DadJokes]

So weird. The actual statistics are indicating that of the people who were hospitalized with severe Covid but survived and went home, 50% die within 12 months. It’s so wrong that people are making stuff up that is not just untrue but is the near opposite of reality.

Source?

I can't tell if Taran is joking with the line about people making stuff up there.

I only know of one person who went to ICU and survived. It hasn't been 12 months yet, but he seems to be doing fine.