Overheard at Work 2

[OtherJen]

This isn't the typical anti-mustachian overheard at work conversation.

I was talking with a co-worker who started on the same day I did ~2 years ago as a fresh college graduate. Between his rent, student loan payments, car loan (6 year loan signed 1 year ago), and car insurance ($160/month), he has zero wiggle room in his spending. "Zero wiggle room" are his words, not mine. I remember a conversation a few months ago when he mentioned that he had been using food delivery daily.

We hopefully talked him into at least shopping his car insurance around, but he's 24 with a wreck on his record, so there may not be as much savings there as I'm hoping.

I offered to sit down with him and go over his whole budget to see if I can find some low-hanging fruit. I kind of hope that he doesn't take me up on the offer, as things I consider unnecessary luxuries might be deal breakers for him. But hopefully he'll take a few steps in the right direction after the conversation.

I did that once for a friend. He couldn't figure out how he was so behind, and from his income and written budget, neither could I. Then he gave me a spreadsheet of his spending.

Me: "Um, you spent several thousand dollars on vacations over the summer, several hundred on kids' enrichment (for older teens who already earned their own spending money), another several thousand on furniture for your house, and none of it was in the written budget."
Him: "...oh."

We never discussed it again. Hopefully it made a difference.

[Imma]

Sustainability of a company doesn’t really address whether profits are made from the stupidity of others.  A quick scan of ESG funds shows holdings like Pepsi, Visa, Disney.  It’s pretty much impossible to invest in an index fund and not take advantage of stupid people.  IMO it’s gotta be good enough not to specifically target people

It is pretty much impossible to have any fond that is not using unethical companies (make money from powerless people or damaging them) or those that make money from stupid people.

That is lao in part because of how big and diverse today's megacorps are. Company X is very responsible. But they also hold 14% of a weapon factory?

Or do you have Nestlè in there? The company that steals the water from under villages in 3rd world countries (or sometimes in 1st world too) to sell them bottled water when their wells no longer work?

Totally do in the first world.  It's a big deal here in MI.

Obviously there's no such thing as 100% sustainable in a capitalist world. But the funds I've invested in have set their own clear criteria of what they will and will not invest in. That means they have excluded, for example, any companies that have to do with tobacco, and certain types of weapons like landmines and bioweapons. They also exclude some companies that are extremely polluting. My impression is that their research is thorough. All in all they exclude roughly 10%. That's not enough but it's a good start. For example, they exclude 15% of the companies in the MSCI World index which represents 10% of the value.

[Kris]

This isn't the typical anti-mustachian overheard at work conversation.

I was talking with a co-worker who started on the same day I did ~2 years ago as a fresh college graduate. Between his rent, student loan payments, car loan (6 year loan signed 1 year ago), and car insurance ($160/month), he has zero wiggle room in his spending. "Zero wiggle room" are his words, not mine. I remember a conversation a few months ago when he mentioned that he had been using food delivery daily.

We hopefully talked him into at least shopping his car insurance around, but he's 24 with a wreck on his record, so there may not be as much savings there as I'm hoping.

I offered to sit down with him and go over his whole budget to see if I can find some low-hanging fruit. I kind of hope that he doesn't take me up on the offer, as things I consider unnecessary luxuries might be deal breakers for him. But hopefully he'll take a few steps in the right direction after the conversation.

I did that once for a friend. He couldn't figure out how he was so behind, and from his income and written budget, neither could I. Then he gave me a spreadsheet of his spending.

Me: "Um, you spent several thousand dollars on vacations over the summer, several hundred on kids' enrichment (for older teens who already earned their own spending money), another several thousand on furniture for your house, and none of it was in the written budget."
Him: "...oh."

We never discussed it again. Hopefully it made a difference.

God. This is not complicated math. It makes me so sad that people struggle so much with something so clear and evident.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Sorry to add to the off-topic foam, but I just visited a Buc-ee's for the first time *yesterday*. I was absolutely floored. They had WEDDING merchandise, y'all. Plus the aformentioned deer corn, etc. You could decorate your living room, host a barbecue, plan a wedding, buy all your Christmas presents, plus fill up with gas. It was surreal.
One of us did spend $30 on branded merchandise, but it was the 12yo spending his allowance money :) I used the ultra-clean and spacious restrooms. There was hand sanitizer IN the stalls!

I spent Giftmas in a 4-star hotel in San Antonio (on points-- no facepunch). There was a magazine rack and a telephone in the bathroom, next to the toilet.

[dragoncar]

Sorry to add to the off-topic foam, but I just visited a Buc-ee's for the first time *yesterday*. I was absolutely floored. They had WEDDING merchandise, y'all. Plus the aformentioned deer corn, etc. You could decorate your living room, host a barbecue, plan a wedding, buy all your Christmas presents, plus fill up with gas. It was surreal.
One of us did spend $30 on branded merchandise, but it was the 12yo spending his allowance money :) I used the ultra-clean and spacious restrooms. There was hand sanitizer IN the stalls!

I spent Giftmas in a 4-star hotel in San Antonio (on points-- no facepunch). There was a magazine rack and a telephone in the bathroom, next to the toilet.

Now I’ve stayed in my fair share of facepunch-worthy hotels, but don’t forget that points are fungible.  If you use them all up on fancy rooms, you don’t have any left over to offset other real-life spending.  Thus, points aren’t a free pass to overspend (although sometimes you can get really good deals using points)

[ixtap]

Sorry to add to the off-topic foam, but I just visited a Buc-ee's for the first time *yesterday*. I was absolutely floored. They had WEDDING merchandise, y'all. Plus the aformentioned deer corn, etc. You could decorate your living room, host a barbecue, plan a wedding, buy all your Christmas presents, plus fill up with gas. It was surreal.
One of us did spend $30 on branded merchandise, but it was the 12yo spending his allowance money :) I used the ultra-clean and spacious restrooms. There was hand sanitizer IN the stalls!

I spent Giftmas in a 4-star hotel in San Antonio (on points-- no facepunch). There was a magazine rack and a telephone in the bathroom, next to the toilet.

Kind of the opposite of hand sanitizer in the stalls...

[Playing with Fire UK]

No, we don't all drive stolen cars here.

I was not implying that at all.

Neither was I, apologies.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Sorry to add to the off-topic foam, but I just visited a Buc-ee's for the first time *yesterday*. I was absolutely floored. They had WEDDING merchandise, y'all. Plus the aformentioned deer corn, etc. You could decorate your living room, host a barbecue, plan a wedding, buy all your Christmas presents, plus fill up with gas. It was surreal.
One of us did spend $30 on branded merchandise, but it was the 12yo spending his allowance money :) I used the ultra-clean and spacious restrooms. There was hand sanitizer IN the stalls!

I spent Giftmas in a 4-star hotel in San Antonio (on points-- no facepunch). There was a magazine rack and a telephone in the bathroom, next to the toilet.

Kind of the opposite of hand sanitizer in the stalls...

Yeah, you don't want to touch that. As much as I employ scatological humor I draw the line at handling someone else's E. coli.

[ysette9]

A colleague asked for some advice on his ergonomic situation at his desk. I shared a few things I learned, including how I saw that when he worked over his laptop he had hunched shoulders that wasn't the best for his back or arms. I pointed out how my setup has monitors at the right height for me to sit up straight and how the keyboard is at a good height for neutral arms, blah blah blah.

Anyway, he decided that he needed an external monitor also so he could have better posture at his desk. But instead of the massive monitors we can get for free from the company, he decided to order himself a $1200 Apple display to use at work. And today he let us know that while he was shopping he decided to go ahead and replace his daughter's computer, so she is getting a $2k surprise showing up today.

I told him that I would be happy to help him with the obvious problem he had of too much money, and we all had a good laugh.

[J.R. Ewing]

I have a coworker who patted himself on the back for cooking at home the other night.  Their default is to order from some hip restaurant through Grubhub.  Apparently they do this 4-5 times a week.  The other nights, they eat out.  This individual also eats at restaurants daily for lunch.

Now I no nothing about what his wife's lunch habits are, or what they do on the weekend for breakfast or lunch.  But my back of the envelope numbers show they're spending $19,000 a year eating out even without the other unknowns added in.  That's unbelievable.

Now he is a high earner with a salary well over 100,000, and his wife earns a decent salary too.  Still they're spending 10% of their gross on eating out.  He's a muscular 6'3" and plays sports regularly.  Otherwise, the calories would have caught up with him. 

[BigIslandGuy]

My dept director told me today he pulled his entire 401k into cash/bonds in October, and moved all of his other investments into cash yesterday...

Well, ackshuly... I agree with this move. Stock market is a freaking tinder box right now. Its about to burn down like Australia. Bad joke, but you get the visual.

[BigIslandGuy]

I work for a very large sub-prime auto lender, and some of the stories I hear and see about our customers are outrageous. Lots of people threaten to shoot the repo agent, dontchaknow. I'll save them for another day. But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

In a "town hall" type meeting with our CTO (a meeting of almost all 6-figure tech type earners) a guy publicly asked how much he could borrow under the plan, in effect advertising to the entire I.T. department) that he is broke and couldn't afford even a single week of income loss. SMH. 

[BigIslandGuy]

My dept director told me today he pulled his entire 401k into cash/bonds in October, and moved all of his other investments into cash yesterday...

He got lucky in timing the top, let's see if he can call the bottom.

Yep, havent you heard?... the Top Is In!  ;) 

[bluebelle]

I work for a very large sub-prime auto lender, and some of the stories I hear and see about our customers are outrageous. Lots of people threaten to shoot the repo agent, dontchaknow. I'll save them for another day. But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

In a "town hall" type meeting with our CTO (a meeting of almost all 6-figure tech type earners) a guy publicly asked how much he could borrow under the plan, in effect advertising to the entire I.T. department) that he is broke and couldn't afford even a single week of income loss. SMH.

is it an interest free loan for 4 months?   I want to believe that the guy just wanted to use someone else's money for 4 months if it's interest free....maybe a little payback for the company using employee money for an extra week, which is what they're doing.   Holding payroll for an extra week for the entire employee base....having the employees give the company an interest free loan for a week.  (but I'm cynical)

[Trevor Reznik]

My dept director told me today he pulled his entire 401k into cash/bonds in October, and moved all of his other investments into cash yesterday...

Well, ackshuly... I agree with this move. Stock market is a freaking tinder box right now. Its about to burn down like Australia. Bad joke, but you get the visual.

Plenty would have said the same 12 months ago and missed out on what ~25% gains since then?  Even the experts can't predict what will happen next.

[moof]

My dept director told me today he pulled his entire 401k into cash/bonds in October, and moved all of his other investments into cash yesterday...

Well, ackshuly... I agree with this move. Stock market is a freaking tinder box right now. Its about to burn down like Australia. Bad joke, but you get the visual.

Plenty would have said the same 12 months ago and missed out on what ~25% gains since then?  Even the experts can't predict what will happen next.

It is worth reminding one's self that the most successful groups of investors are the ones who lost their password, or who died.

[Goldielocks]

I have a coworker who patted himself on the back for cooking at home the other night.  Their default is to order from some hip restaurant through Grubhub.  Apparently they do this 4-5 times a week.  The other nights, they eat out.  This individual also eats at restaurants daily for lunch.

Now I no nothing about what his wife's lunch habits are, or what they do on the weekend for breakfast or lunch.  But my back of the envelope numbers show they're spending $19,000 a year eating out even without the other unknowns added in.  That's unbelievable.

Now he is a high earner with a salary well over 100,000, and his wife earns a decent salary too.  Still they're spending 10% of their gross on eating out.  He's a muscular 6'3" and plays sports regularly.  Otherwise, the calories would have caught up with him.

My friends (a couple) who do this have one great excuse - they earn a lot of money and don't have kids.

FWIW,  he travels a lot and is a bit fastidious and does cook a bit for himself (soup?) when alone.  She grew up with parents that owned a restaurant and no one cooked at home.. she helped serve there but never learned how to cook growing up or even saw someone doing it at home.  Neither are big eaters - one meal a day plus leftovers.

[merula]

I work for a very large sub-prime auto lender, and some of the stories I hear and see about our customers are outrageous. Lots of people threaten to shoot the repo agent, dontchaknow. I'll save them for another day. But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

In a "town hall" type meeting with our CTO (a meeting of almost all 6-figure tech type earners) a guy publicly asked how much he could borrow under the plan, in effect advertising to the entire I.T. department) that he is broke and couldn't afford even a single week of income loss. SMH.

is it an interest free loan for 4 months?   I want to believe that the guy just wanted to use someone else's money for 4 months if it's interest free....maybe a little payback for the company using employee money for an extra week, which is what they're doing.   Holding payroll for an extra week for the entire employee base....having the employees give the company an interest free loan for a week.  (but I'm cynical)

I did this when my company went from semimonthly to biweekly pay periods. It was an interest-free loan you could get the first paycheck of January, and then they'd take payments out of your paycheck for the rest of the year.

I wasn't hurting for money at all, even though I hadn't yet found mustachianism, but an interest-free loan is an interest-free loan. I used it as an extra student loan payment.

[bluebelle]

I work for a very large sub-prime auto lender, and some of the stories I hear and see about our customers are outrageous. Lots of people threaten to shoot the repo agent, dontchaknow. I'll save them for another day. But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

In a "town hall" type meeting with our CTO (a meeting of almost all 6-figure tech type earners) a guy publicly asked how much he could borrow under the plan, in effect advertising to the entire I.T. department) that he is broke and couldn't afford even a single week of income loss. SMH.

is it an interest free loan for 4 months?   I want to believe that the guy just wanted to use someone else's money for 4 months if it's interest free....maybe a little payback for the company using employee money for an extra week, which is what they're doing.   Holding payroll for an extra week for the entire employee base....having the employees give the company an interest free loan for a week.  (but I'm cynical)

I did this when my company went from semimonthly to biweekly pay periods. It was an interest-free loan you could get the first paycheck of January, and then they'd take payments out of your paycheck for the rest of the year.

I wasn't hurting for money at all, even though I hadn't yet found mustachianism, but an interest-free loan is an interest-free loan. I used it as an extra student loan payment.

Congrats - way to game the system....

[TomTX]

My coworker with a 401k loan and maxed out credit cards told a group of us at lunch that she spent $50 at a gas station on branded merchandise. Why anyone would want sweatpants with a gas station logo on them is beyond my comprehension.

There is a certain TX gas station with a cult following.  I actually have a branded T-shirt from there (thrifted!) and a coozie.  Its so much more than just a gas station :)

What, are we not allowed to say Buc-ee's out loud?

People really do love that place. I'm from Texas and had never heard of it until a few years ago. We were planning a road trip back to visit family, and one of my wife's coworkers insisted that we go to one. It was quite the experience. However, I'd still rather get some Allsup's fried burritos than anything Buc-ee's had to offer.

I don't think there's too much territory overlap between them - Allsup's tends to be more West and small town, Buc-ee's tends to be right on the interstate (a few mini-Buc-ee's conversions excepted)

That said, I guess I need to try the fried burritos next time at Allsup's. When traveling for work and getting food paid for by my employer, of course.

[Montecarlo]

Sustainability of a company doesn’t really address whether profits are made from the stupidity of others.  A quick scan of ESG funds shows holdings like Pepsi, Visa, Disney.  It’s pretty much impossible to invest in an index fund and not take advantage of stupid people.  IMO it’s gotta be good enough not to specifically target people

It is pretty much impossible to have any fond that is not using unethical companies (make money from powerless people or damaging them) or those that make money from stupid people.

That is lao in part because of how big and diverse today's megacorps are. Company X is very responsible. But they also hold 14% of a weapon factory?

Or do you have Nestlè in there? The company that steals the water from under villages in 3rd world countries (or sometimes in 1st world too) to sell them bottled water when their wells no longer work?

Totally do in the first world.  It's a big deal here in MI.

Obviously there's no such thing as 100% sustainable in a capitalist world. But the funds I've invested in have set their own clear criteria of what they will and will not invest in. That means they have excluded, for example, any companies that have to do with tobacco, and certain types of weapons like landmines and bioweapons. They also exclude some companies that are extremely polluting. My impression is that their research is thorough. All in all they exclude roughly 10%. That's not enough but it's a good start. For example, they exclude 15% of the companies in the MSCI World index which represents 10% of the value.

I enjoy a nice evening at a hookah bar smoking and sipping beer.  I don’t see what’s immoral about tobacco companies profiting off of that.  Or why alcohol seems to get a free pass when it causes crazy health problems as well.

[blue_green_sparks]

Not Overheard at Work because I am FIRED, but I do play in local rock bands. Local music pays so little that it would be difficult to live off of it, but some do manage. One band member was telling me the story of a guitarist who was playing music for a living but unfortunately had his double-wide burn down one night while he was playing in a club. He was homeless with just a guitar to his name. Several local musicians "banded" together and put on a concert to raise money to get the musician back on his feet. Apparently they raised about $1K, not bad. Unfortunately he didn't get the point and used the money to buy a second guitar.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Not Overheard at Work because I am FIRED, but I do play in local rock bands. Local music pays so little that it would be difficult to live off of it, but some do manage. One band member was telling me the story of a guitarist who was playing music for a living but unfortunately had his double-wide burn down one night while he was playing in a club. He was homeless with just a guitar to his name. Several local musicians "banded" together and put on a concert to raise money to get the musician back on his feet. Apparently they raised about $1K, not bad. Unfortunately he didn't get the point and used the money to buy a second guitar.

Second guitar will definitely be useful when he's living under the local bridge.

[Monerexia]

Not Overheard at Work because I am FIRED, but I do play in local rock bands. Local music pays so little that it would be difficult to live off of it, but some do manage. One band member was telling me the story of a guitarist who was playing music for a living but unfortunately had his double-wide burn down one night while he was playing in a club. He was homeless with just a guitar to his name. Several local musicians "banded" together and put on a concert to raise money to get the musician back on his feet. Apparently they raised about $1K, not bad. Unfortunately he didn't get the point and used the money to buy a second guitar.

Second guitar will definitely be useful when he's living under the local bridge.

One wrist injury away from oh f***.

[BigIslandGuy]

.. a coworker is going to Las Vegas to celebrate her daughter's 21st birthday... but also doesnt have enough money in checking account to buy "diet food"... meaning their desired healthy groceries. Have to resort to buying a few staples until next payday. But can afford Las Vegas trip so a 21 year old can get legally hammered?? 

[talltexan]

I work for a very large sub-prime auto lender, and some of the stories I hear and see about our customers are outrageous. Lots of people threaten to shoot the repo agent, dontchaknow. I'll save them for another day. But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

In a "town hall" type meeting with our CTO (a meeting of almost all 6-figure tech type earners) a guy publicly asked how much he could borrow under the plan, in effect advertising to the entire I.T. department) that he is broke and couldn't afford even a single week of income loss. SMH.

is it an interest free loan for 4 months?   I want to believe that the guy just wanted to use someone else's money for 4 months if it's interest free....maybe a little payback for the company using employee money for an extra week, which is what they're doing.   Holding payroll for an extra week for the entire employee base....having the employees give the company an interest free loan for a week.  (but I'm cynical)

My wife works for General Electric, and they pulled this stunt in March 2017. You're welcome to look at their share price then and compare it to today's. This is the kind of thing a company does when it's starved for cash.

[Kazyan]

Coworker owns 2 houses (one of which is worth >$300k) and four vehicles. Mentioned that he owns five televisions, and got the fifth one for "free"--actually $150 when I asked him to clarify, compared to a normal price of $800.

Complains that he's broke. Oi. I get that cash flow problems are a thing, but oi.

[markbike528CBX]

I work for a very large sub-prime auto lender, and some of the stories I hear and see about our customers are outrageous. Lots of people threaten to shoot the repo agent, dontchaknow. I'll save them for another day. But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

In a "town hall" type meeting with our CTO (a meeting of almost all 6-figure tech type earners) a guy publicly asked how much he could borrow under the plan, in effect advertising to the entire I.T. department) that he is broke and couldn't afford even a single week of income loss. SMH.

is it an interest free loan for 4 months?   I want to believe that the guy just wanted to use someone else's money for 4 months if it's interest free....maybe a little payback for the company using employee money for an extra week, which is what they're doing.   Holding payroll for an extra week for the entire employee base....having the employees give the company an interest free loan for a week.  (but I'm cynical)

My wife works for General Electric, and they pulled this stunt in March 2017. You're welcome to look at their share price then and compare it to today's. This is the kind of thing a company does when it's starved for cash.

As I recall 2017 is when Warren Buffett finished exiting his big GE position of 2009. Coincidence?

[RobertFromTX]

We just had a company-wide conference call for people signed up for HSA accounts because we're switching providers. The company has over 100 employees and only 5 people were invited to the conference call! That means only ~5% of my company is utilizing HSA accounts.

[prudent_one]

But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

Heh, this brought back memories. Where I worked they did that payroll change in the mid-1970s.  We got a letter explaining the financial mumbo-jumbo and it said upon separation, you get that held-back week of pay. Somewhere around 2009 a co-worker retired. He had held onto that letter. The HR/payroll people had changed many times over, so he showed them the letter to make sure his held-back week was paid out in his last check. Apparently, by that time it had been so long since anyone left who had been there in 1976 the HR/payroll people were flummoxed. They didn't think the guy had forged the letter but nobody in authority had ever seen one or heard of it.

HR hinted that they weren't going to pay it without coming right out and saying so, suggesting that the obligation belonged to the former parent company, not the current owners. He said they could explain it to the news reporter who would be showing up to ask about it, the HR guy said to hold on as they were still researching, and they did pay it in his last check - a week's pay at his current rate.

[dragoncar]

But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

Heh, this brought back memories. Where I worked they did that payroll change in the mid-1970s.  We got a letter explaining the financial mumbo-jumbo and it said upon separation, you get that held-back week of pay. Somewhere around 2009 a co-worker retired. He had held onto that letter. The HR/payroll people had changed many times over, so he showed them the letter to make sure his held-back week was paid out in his last check. Apparently, by that time it had been so long since anyone left who had been there in 1976 the HR/payroll people were flummoxed. They didn't think the guy had forged the letter but nobody in authority had ever seen one or heard of it.

HR hinted that they weren't going to pay it without coming right out and saying so, suggesting that the obligation belonged to the former parent company, not the current owners. He said they could explain it to the news reporter who would be showing up to ask about it, the HR guy said to hold on as they were still researching, and they did pay it in his last check - a week's pay at his current rate.

Strange because they are either Doing payroll in arrears or not.  Seems like they switched to arrears and then at some point switched BACK to current pay without making up the difference?

I’ve always gotten paid in arrears and each pay stub clearly states the work days that the paycheck is supposed to cover
 

[Imma]

Sustainability of a company doesn’t really address whether profits are made from the stupidity of others.  A quick scan of ESG funds shows holdings like Pepsi, Visa, Disney.  It’s pretty much impossible to invest in an index fund and not take advantage of stupid people.  IMO it’s gotta be good enough not to specifically target people

It is pretty much impossible to have any fond that is not using unethical companies (make money from powerless people or damaging them) or those that make money from stupid people.

That is lao in part because of how big and diverse today's megacorps are. Company X is very responsible. But they also hold 14% of a weapon factory?

Or do you have Nestlè in there? The company that steals the water from under villages in 3rd world countries (or sometimes in 1st world too) to sell them bottled water when their wells no longer work?

Totally do in the first world.  It's a big deal here in MI.

Obviously there's no such thing as 100% sustainable in a capitalist world. But the funds I've invested in have set their own clear criteria of what they will and will not invest in. That means they have excluded, for example, any companies that have to do with tobacco, and certain types of weapons like landmines and bioweapons. They also exclude some companies that are extremely polluting. My impression is that their research is thorough. All in all they exclude roughly 10%. That's not enough but it's a good start. For example, they exclude 15% of the companies in the MSCI World index which represents 10% of the value.

I enjoy a nice evening at a hookah bar smoking and sipping beer.  I don’t see what’s immoral about tobacco companies profiting off of that.  Or why alcohol seems to get a free pass when it causes crazy health problems as well.

I would prefer not to invest in alcohol either if I had the choice, but I haven't found a sober fund yet.

Alcohol (and fastfood companies, etc etc) are different than tobacco companies though. While consuming alcohol is not healthy, most users are not addicted to it. Only a minority of the users suffer from addiction. It's an unfortunate side effect. Tobacco on the other hand is addictive by design. Almost all users are hooked after using it for a few times (I don't know the exact numbers but I've seen figures suggesting teenagers often get addicted after trying a cigarette less than 5-10 times)  The tobacco industry is actually doing research to find out how to increase the addictiveness of their products. In my book that's pretty evil.

Also, from a danger-to-others perspective, while of course a person with an alcohol addiction is a huge burden to their environment, tobacco users literally pollute other people's air with toxic fumes. I believe that everyone has the theoretical right to inhale toxic fumes (although freedom of choice is difficult with addiction) but you also poison other people. This is a sensitive topic for me, because I suffer from an auto immune disease, have suffered from it since I was a teenager. When I asked my doctor how I could possibly suddenly get this disease, she replied 'are your parents smokers?' Exposure to second hand smoke is one of the biggest risk factors for my illness, after from first hand smoke (I'm a never smoker) .

[trashtalk]

But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

Heh, this brought back memories. Where I worked they did that payroll change in the mid-1970s.  We got a letter explaining the financial mumbo-jumbo and it said upon separation, you get that held-back week of pay. Somewhere around 2009 a co-worker retired. He had held onto that letter. The HR/payroll people had changed many times over, so he showed them the letter to make sure his held-back week was paid out in his last check. Apparently, by that time it had been so long since anyone left who had been there in 1976 the HR/payroll people were flummoxed. They didn't think the guy had forged the letter but nobody in authority had ever seen one or heard of it.

HR hinted that they weren't going to pay it without coming right out and saying so, suggesting that the obligation belonged to the former parent company, not the current owners. He said they could explain it to the news reporter who would be showing up to ask about it, the HR guy said to hold on as they were still researching, and they did pay it in his last check - a week's pay at his current rate.

This guy is my hero.

[sherr]

We just had a company-wide conference call for people signed up for HSA accounts because we're switching providers. The company has over 100 employees and only 5 people were invited to the conference call! That means only ~5% of my company is utilizing HSA accounts.

To be fair you cannot contribute to an HSA unless you have a High Deductible plan, and depending on the plans your company offers that may legitimately not be the best choice for a lot of people. 5% does sound low though. :(

[merula]

To be fair you cannot contribute to an HSA unless you have a High Deductible plan, and depending on the plans your company offers that may legitimately not be the best choice for a lot of people. 5% does sound low though. :(

Yes, exactly. At my company, the premiums for a HDHP with a $1,400 deductible and 20% coinsurance on all costs after the deductible is only  15% less than a regular plan with a $700 deductible and 0-10% coinsurance (depending on the specific service). Actual premiums vary by family size and salary, but for employee-only coverage for someone earning a median salary for my company, the tipping point is around $1,000 of medical costs per year. Which is one chronic condition or injury per year.

[talltexan]

I work for a very large sub-prime auto lender, and some of the stories I hear and see about our customers are outrageous. Lots of people threaten to shoot the repo agent, dontchaknow. I'll save them for another day. But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

In a "town hall" type meeting with our CTO (a meeting of almost all 6-figure tech type earners) a guy publicly asked how much he could borrow under the plan, in effect advertising to the entire I.T. department) that he is broke and couldn't afford even a single week of income loss. SMH.

is it an interest free loan for 4 months?   I want to believe that the guy just wanted to use someone else's money for 4 months if it's interest free....maybe a little payback for the company using employee money for an extra week, which is what they're doing.   Holding payroll for an extra week for the entire employee base....having the employees give the company an interest free loan for a week.  (but I'm cynical)

My wife works for General Electric, and they pulled this stunt in March 2017. You're welcome to look at their share price then and compare it to today's. This is the kind of thing a company does when it's starved for cash.

As I recall 2017 is when Warren Buffett finished exiting his big GE position of 2009. Coincidence?

My wife's 401K statement came in the mail yesterday, and the GE stock portion actually had a nice return for 2019q4 (about 5% for the quarter, which works out to something like 22% annualized). That portion represents about 5% of our net worth, which is still far too high, but there are frictions that keep us from decreasing it rapidly.

[DaMa]

To be fair you cannot contribute to an HSA unless you have a High Deductible plan, and depending on the plans your company offers that may legitimately not be the best choice for a lot of people. 5% does sound low though. :(

Yes, exactly. At my company, the premiums for a HDHP with a $1,400 deductible and 20% coinsurance on all costs after the deductible is only  15% less than a regular plan with a $700 deductible and 0-10% coinsurance (depending on the specific service). Actual premiums vary by family size and salary, but for employee-only coverage for someone earning a median salary for my company, the tipping point is around $1,000 of medical costs per year. Which is one chronic condition or injury per year.

It has been my experience that many people think an HSA is use it or lose it, like an FSA, and most people cannot do the math to see that the HDHP is a better option. 

[OtherJen]

To be fair you cannot contribute to an HSA unless you have a High Deductible plan, and depending on the plans your company offers that may legitimately not be the best choice for a lot of people. 5% does sound low though. :(

Yes, exactly. At my company, the premiums for a HDHP with a $1,400 deductible and 20% coinsurance on all costs after the deductible is only  15% less than a regular plan with a $700 deductible and 0-10% coinsurance (depending on the specific service). Actual premiums vary by family size and salary, but for employee-only coverage for someone earning a median salary for my company, the tipping point is around $1,000 of medical costs per year. Which is one chronic condition or injury per year.

It has been my experience that many people think an HSA is use it or lose it, like an FSA, and most people cannot do the math to see that the HDHP is a better option.

Depends on how high that deductible is. For someone early in the process, the personal HSA max contribution is $3500, and some HDHP plans have a personal deductible of $6000. That person would likely do the math and choose a non-HDHP plan if they anticipate anything beyond routine care in the next year.

But yes, many people are unaware of the fairly recent change in HSA policy. It used to be "use it or lose it."

Edit: apparently what we had before husband started working for current employer was a medical FSA. A lot of workplaces used to offer these, and that's the source of the confusion.

[mtn]

To be fair you cannot contribute to an HSA unless you have a High Deductible plan, and depending on the plans your company offers that may legitimately not be the best choice for a lot of people. 5% does sound low though. :(

Yes, exactly. At my company, the premiums for a HDHP with a $1,400 deductible and 20% coinsurance on all costs after the deductible is only  15% less than a regular plan with a $700 deductible and 0-10% coinsurance (depending on the specific service). Actual premiums vary by family size and salary, but for employee-only coverage for someone earning a median salary for my company, the tipping point is around $1,000 of medical costs per year. Which is one chronic condition or injury per year.

It has been my experience that many people think an HSA is use it or lose it, like an FSA, and most people cannot do the math to see that the HDHP is a better option.

Aside from that, often times for a young person even if you have done the math, you don't quite realize the implications of it. If I could go back in time I'd have told my 26 year old self (first time I was off mom and dads insurance) that an HSA is the same thing as your IRA, you need to contribute as much as you can to it. But I was gung-ho on my IRA and 401k. That was only 4 years ago, but despite reading everything here and other places, I couldn't quite grasp why it made sense for a single, extremely healthy young person. Now having seen a $1M hospital bill (patient liability far less), I get it.

[DaMa]

Depends on how high that deductible is. For someone early in the process, the personal HSA max contribution is $3500, and some HDHP plans have a personal deductible of $6000. That person would likely do the math and choose a non-HDHP plan if they anticipate anything beyond routine care in the next year.

But yes, many people are unaware of the fairly recent change in HSA policy. It used to be "use it or lose it."

Edit: apparently what we had before husband started working for current employer was a medical FSA. A lot of workplaces used to offer these, and that's the source of the confusion.

Even with the $6000 deductible, it depends on the premiums and benefits of your alternatives.  That's my point.

[LennStar]

But our payroll timing is changing from "paid current" to "paid 1 week in arrears". So in 2 months they will hold back 1 week of pay, meaning when they do, people will get a paycheck only half the size of  the usual. They have had to implement a loan plan to allow employees to borrow up the amount of the "missing" money and pay it back over 4 months.

Heh, this brought back memories. Where I worked they did that payroll change in the mid-1970s.  We got a letter explaining the financial mumbo-jumbo and it said upon separation, you get that held-back week of pay. Somewhere around 2009 a co-worker retired. He had held onto that letter. The HR/payroll people had changed many times over, so he showed them the letter to make sure his held-back week was paid out in his last check. Apparently, by that time it had been so long since anyone left who had been there in 1976 the HR/payroll people were flummoxed. They didn't think the guy had forged the letter but nobody in authority had ever seen one or heard of it.

HR hinted that they weren't going to pay it without coming right out and saying so, suggesting that the obligation belonged to the former parent company, not the current owners. He said they could explain it to the news reporter who would be showing up to ask about it, the HR guy said to hold on as they were still researching, and they did pay it in his last check - a week's pay at his current rate.

This guy is my hero.

Nah. Only if he had gotten the 6% above Federal Lending Rate (or whatever the rule is in the US) interest on that overdue payment.

[js82]

Received an email earlier this week that made me want to reach through the internet and facepunch corporate IT.  Content of the email is paraphrased below:


"It has been identified that you have a program on the 'restricted list' on your computer.  This program is on the restricted risk because it presents either a legal or cybersecurity risk to the company, and will be removed from your computer on (insert date here.

The restricted program you are using is (free software that came with measurement equipment I purchased).  We have identified an alternative program for the same purpose (alternative program name, made by the same company).  If you would like this software installed instead, please file a case with the IT Department

If you have any questions, please email us at (email address)"


Now keep in mind the following:
-This program was originally installed on my computer by corporate IT, a couple years ago
-The two programs in question were created by the same company.  It's a reputable company
-The version I'm using is the version they offer free of charge to anyone that purchases their hardware.  It's essentially a stripped-down version of the pricey version.  You can download it for free from their website.
-The version IT wants to force me to switch to costs $495 and has a bunch of features I don't care about.

Currently resisting the urge to respond to the "please direct any questions to address" with a message letting them know how useless and wasteful they are.  Fortunately, I've managed to restrain that urge(so far).

[jps]

Currently resisting the urge to respond to the "please direct any questions to address" with a message letting them know how useless and wasteful they are.  Fortunately, I've managed to restrain that urge(so far).

Yeah, that's probably good urge to restrain. ^{just kidding, do it and tell us what happens.}

[SwordGuy]

Received an email earlier this week that made me want to reach through the internet and facepunch corporate IT.  Content of the email is paraphrased below:


"It has been identified that you have a program on the 'restricted list' on your computer.  This program is on the restricted risk because it presents either a legal or cybersecurity risk to the company, and will be removed from your computer on (insert date here.

The restricted program you are using is (free software that came with measurement equipment I purchased).  We have identified an alternative program for the same purpose (alternative program name, made by the same company).  If you would like this software installed instead, please file a case with the IT Department

If you have any questions, please email us at (email address)"


Now keep in mind the following:
-This program was originally installed on my computer by corporate IT, a couple years ago
-The two programs in question were created by the same company.  It's a reputable company
-The version I'm using is the version they offer free of charge to anyone that purchases their hardware.  It's essentially a stripped-down version of the pricey version.  You can download it for free from their website.
-The version IT wants to force me to switch to costs $495 and has a bunch of features I don't care about.

Currently resisting the urge to respond to the "please direct any questions to address" with a message letting them know how useless and wasteful they are.  Fortunately, I've managed to restrain that urge(so far).

It's possible that the free version of the software actually DOES have security flaws that the pay-for version does not.    You should check that out before jumping on their case.

[Montecarlo]

I enjoy a nice evening at a hookah bar smoking and sipping beer.  I don’t see what’s immoral about tobacco companies profiting off of that.  Or why alcohol seems to get a free pass when it causes crazy health problems as well.

I would prefer not to invest in alcohol either if I had the choice, but I haven't found a sober fund yet.

Alcohol (and fastfood companies, etc etc) are different than tobacco companies though. While consuming alcohol is not healthy, most users are not addicted to it. Only a minority of the users suffer from addiction. It's an unfortunate side effect. Tobacco on the other hand is addictive by design. Almost all users are hooked after using it for a few times (I don't know the exact numbers but I've seen figures suggesting teenagers often get addicted after trying a cigarette less than 5-10 times)  The tobacco industry is actually doing research to find out how to increase the addictiveness of their products. In my book that's pretty evil.

Also, from a danger-to-others perspective, while of course a person with an alcohol addiction is a huge burden to their environment, tobacco users literally pollute other people's air with toxic fumes. I believe that everyone has the theoretical right to inhale toxic fumes (although freedom of choice is difficult with addiction) but you also poison other people. This is a sensitive topic for me, because I suffer from an auto immune disease, have suffered from it since I was a teenager. When I asked my doctor how I could possibly suddenly get this disease, she replied 'are your parents smokers?' Exposure to second hand smoke is one of the biggest risk factors for my illness, after from first hand smoke (I'm a never smoker) .

If we’re using danger to others because of users’ irresponsible use as a criteria, I would rate alcohol (driving while drunk), phones (driving while texting), and cars (driving while driving) as more dangerous than smoking.

[PDXTabs]

Or why alcohol seems to get a free pass when it causes crazy health problems as well.

Every society has one or two drugs that are condoned. We just picked a really dumb one.

[PDXTabs]

If I could go back in time I'd have told my 26 year old self (first time I was off mom and dads insurance) that an HSA is the same thing as your IRA, you need to contribute as much as you can to it. But I was gung-ho on my IRA and 401k.

But it isn't. You can use the rule of 55 to take money out of a 401K at 55, you can use a 72T to take money out of your IRA anytime, you can transfer money between IRAs and 401Ks, but a HSA requires that you actually be 65 to use that money for anything other than medical expenses.

[mtn]

If I could go back in time I'd have told my 26 year old self (first time I was off mom and dads insurance) that an HSA is the same thing as your IRA, you need to contribute as much as you can to it. But I was gung-ho on my IRA and 401k.

But it isn't. You can use the rule of 55 to take money out of a 401K at 55, you can use a 72T to take money out of your IRA anytime, but a HSA requires that you actually be 65 to use that money for anything other than medical expenses.

No, I realize that. But that is the language I would have understood, and it would have been a better use of my savings for me and my family than straight IRA and 401k.  Obviously this is equivalent to me telling younger self to choose a Toyota instead of a Honda. Or maybe a Corvette instead of a Ferrari? Or Ferrari instead of Corvette? W/e, my point is that for me I didn't make a bad choice but could have made a better choice - although that is with the benefit of hindsight.

[Xlar]

If I could go back in time I'd have told my 26 year old self (first time I was off mom and dads insurance) that an HSA is the same thing as your IRA, you need to contribute as much as you can to it. But I was gung-ho on my IRA and 401k.

But it isn't. You can use the rule of 55 to take money out of a 401K at 55, you can use a 72T to take money out of your IRA anytime, you can transfer money between IRAs and 401Ks, but a HSA requires that you actually be 65 to use that money for anything other than medical expenses.

While you have to be 65 to withdraw for anything other than medical expenses my understanding is that you pay your medical expenses now using non-HSA dollars and then later when you are FIRED you use those receipts to withdraw dollars from the HSA. Here is the article where I first heard about the concept: https://www.madfientist.com/ultimate-retirement-account/

[LennStar]

Currently resisting the urge to respond to the "please direct any questions to address" with a message letting them know how useless and wasteful they are.  Fortunately, I've managed to restrain that urge(so far).

Yeah, that's probably good urge to restrain. ^{just kidding, do it and tell us what happens.}

http://bofharchive.com/BOFH.html


Not really overheard and certainly not overseen:

My collegue got a "little" packet today. 2 buckets (3 gallons) and diverse stuff, including nano seal shampoo, to clean his car.
My car gets washed every time it rains. Guess I miss out on some real fun here.