Author Topic: Overheard at Work 2  (Read 1112980 times)

insufFIcientfunds

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1950 on: December 10, 2019, 09:43:09 AM »
soooooooo, did anyone over hear anything at work today?

It's really quite in my office today.

DadJokes

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2360
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1951 on: December 10, 2019, 10:15:28 AM »
soooooooo, did anyone over hear anything at work today?

It's really quite in my office today.

CW: Come eat lunch with us! It's good for team-building...
Me: No thanks, I try to keep my lunch to 15 minutes so that I can catch the early train and get more family time. I only get about 1.5 hours with my kid on workdays.
CW: Wanting to spend time with your family will fade.

Wanting to eat out and more interested in spending time at work than with family? I'll pass.

jinga nation

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
  • Age: 247
  • Location: 'Murica's Dong
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1952 on: December 10, 2019, 10:18:38 AM »
because @insufFIcientfunds asked:

Govt employee in next row stated she is using funds from her TSP (retirement plan) to pay off her truck. Also she's looking at the website for the upcoming Tesla Model Y because she needs an SUV. (Lady is older, single, with no kids.)

She asked how to spell Tesla. She thought it was "Tesslar/Tessler", despite her stating she's been seeing them on the roads daily for a few years.

insufFIcientfunds

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1953 on: December 10, 2019, 10:26:24 AM »
WOW! Thanks guys. I got a good chuckle out of those!

bluebelle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
  • Location: near north Ontario
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1954 on: December 10, 2019, 10:40:43 AM »
because @insufFIcientfunds asked:

Govt employee in next row stated she is using funds from her TSP (retirement plan) to pay off her truck. Also she's looking at the website for the upcoming Tesla Model Y because she needs an SUV. (Lady is older, single, with no kids.)

She asked how to spell Tesla. She thought it was "Tesslar/Tessler", despite her stating she's been seeing them on the roads daily for a few years.
this is so sad.....she's interested in buying a car that she can't spell.....and it's not like Tesla isn't in the news often enough, and there are enough of them on the road......while I get some amusement out of this and get to be judgy, it's sad that someone 'older' doesn't have the sense/intelligence/wherewithal to avoid this trap.

TVRodriguez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 773
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1955 on: December 10, 2019, 11:41:55 AM »
Consider a car loan: I work with dozens of people who buy new cars every couple years, presumably rolling over their loans.  This seemed silly to me because I didn't understand why someone would pay five figures for heated seats or new rims, when their existing car does 95% of the new one.  But if you only look at payments, you might think it's worth it. (Of course, it isn't)

So really it comes down to the fact that people don't save the capital to buy an asset like a car, so they're always playing this psychological financing game with themselves.

I can't tell you how many people I know think that paying off a car loan means that it's time to start shopping for a new car.  I guess that's better than rolling negative equity into a new loan, but come on man.

Apparently, the universe has decided that whenever I pay off a car loan, it's time to total the car. Never mind that I had every intention of keeping the car!

That sucks--lots of bad drivers around you or maybe it's your subconscious pushing you to get a new car and pushing you into accidents.  Just kidding.  Glad you have been able to walk away from the totaled cars!

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7408
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1956 on: December 10, 2019, 12:53:44 PM »
Consider a car loan: I work with dozens of people who buy new cars every couple years, presumably rolling over their loans.  This seemed silly to me because I didn't understand why someone would pay five figures for heated seats or new rims, when their existing car does 95% of the new one.  But if you only look at payments, you might think it's worth it. (Of course, it isn't)

So really it comes down to the fact that people don't save the capital to buy an asset like a car, so they're always playing this psychological financing game with themselves.

I can't tell you how many people I know think that paying off a car loan means that it's time to start shopping for a new car.  I guess that's better than rolling negative equity into a new loan, but come on man.

Apparently, the universe has decided that whenever I pay off a car loan, it's time to total the car. Never mind that I had every intention of keeping the car!

That sucks--lots of bad drivers around you or maybe it's your subconscious pushing you to get a new car and pushing you into accidents.  Just kidding.  Glad you have been able to walk away from the totaled cars!

The first one was barely an accident - I got stuck in a snowbank due to black ice, then another car hit the same ice and then hit me. Damaged the frame. I'm sure they stripped the car and made a bunch selling the parts, it was just the back end that was damaged. Engine and most non-frame parts were fine.

2nd time was just a few months ago. Car was parked in the street, got 7+ inches of rain in less than 6 hours, and the street turned into a river. The water rose so quickly that it was too late to do anything - trying to move it would have flooded it worse than it already was. I checked the car the next day and just called the insurance company then pulled everything out. You can't really fix that amount of water on the electronics. At least the house didn't flood - I helped a neighbor do some clean up in his garage, he lost a ton of stuff.

Gerard

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1566
  • Location: eastern canada
    • Optimacheap
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1957 on: December 10, 2019, 01:39:18 PM »
She asked how to spell Tesla. She thought it was "Tesslar/Tessler"

Maybe she plans to do a lot of Tessling.

Sugaree

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1657
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1958 on: December 10, 2019, 02:20:01 PM »
Consider a car loan: I work with dozens of people who buy new cars every couple years, presumably rolling over their loans.  This seemed silly to me because I didn't understand why someone would pay five figures for heated seats or new rims, when their existing car does 95% of the new one.  But if you only look at payments, you might think it's worth it. (Of course, it isn't)

So really it comes down to the fact that people don't save the capital to buy an asset like a car, so they're always playing this psychological financing game with themselves.

I can't tell you how many people I know think that paying off a car loan means that it's time to start shopping for a new car.  I guess that's better than rolling negative equity into a new loan, but come on man.

Apparently, the universe has decided that whenever I pay off a car loan, it's time to total the car. Never mind that I had every intention of keeping the car!

That sucks--lots of bad drivers around you or maybe it's your subconscious pushing you to get a new car and pushing you into accidents.  Just kidding.  Glad you have been able to walk away from the totaled cars!

The first one was barely an accident - I got stuck in a snowbank due to black ice, then another car hit the same ice and then hit me. Damaged the frame. I'm sure they stripped the car and made a bunch selling the parts, it was just the back end that was damaged. Engine and most non-frame parts were fine.

2nd time was just a few months ago. Car was parked in the street, got 7+ inches of rain in less than 6 hours, and the street turned into a river. The water rose so quickly that it was too late to do anything - trying to move it would have flooded it worse than it already was. I checked the car the next day and just called the insurance company then pulled everything out. You can't really fix that amount of water on the electronics. At least the house didn't flood - I helped a neighbor do some clean up in his garage, he lost a ton of stuff.

That sucks.  I paid off a car last February.  Two weeks after it was paid off, literally the day that I got the title in the mail from the state, a tornado hit my neighborhood.  The car wasn't totaled then thankfully, but my husband hit a slick spot on the road a few months later and ran it into a concrete culvert.  That bent the frame and set off the airbags.  At least with all the tornado recovery, I hadn't gotten around to dropping full coverage insurance on it yet....

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6693
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1959 on: December 10, 2019, 03:32:24 PM »
I got an SPCA dog.   The shelters here have pitbull mixes, husky mixes, cane corso, and other agressive breeds.  The few that arent' were actually flown in from another country (I am not supporting killing local animals and flying in out of country ones), and a few with special "quirks" which is why they are given up. 
The spay and neuter program has been very successful around here, that is evident.

What the cost with my dog is -- ok, maybe $1000 all in for adoption fee, vaccinations, crate, toys and food (and a private trainer sessions because of those "quirks").

What the higher cost is?   
It is very difficult to have a dog without a car.


I can leave her at home to run errands, or take her with me in a car.   We can't bike to all the best walking spots. I need a car to take her to the vet.

I also can't rent a place around here if I have a dog, so locked into higher cost place away from apartment buildings and more into suburbia where a bike or car is needed.

Look for a bicycle kid trailer. Put your dog inside and zip/velcro closed. They get a breeze and can look out the window just like in a car.

Goldielocks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7062
  • Location: BC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1960 on: December 10, 2019, 04:08:12 PM »
I just picked Seattle because I've seen many comments in the press and from people in the area about how high the property costs are.   

I didn't pick NYC or San Francisco because those are way more expensive than most areas in the country.

As for "most people" can't do it, most people don't try.    It takes work, knowledge and time.   Luck just makes that happen faster.
As I pointed out, over 1800 people in the last year bought living quarters for less than $200k in the Seattle area.  Some had to spend money to fix them up right away, others could have waited awhile.

You only need one house.   :)    Seems to me that the potential to save $200k to $500k on one's living quarters would be worth a fair bit of effort.
Citation, please?
The Zillow link I posted above shows the count of houses sold in the $50k to $200k price range.
Respectfully, that data is absolute garbage. I don't know Bremerton, but I've lived in the greater Seattle area my whole life and have been actively monitoring the sub $450k market for several years hoping to find something that feels like a decent deal. I've toured dozens of homes and condos in that time and can definitely say that nearly all those listings are not actual open market sales (sold for $130k a month ago but "zestimate" is $900k, riiight). All you have to do is flip the "sold" filter to "for sale" and see what's left within 90 minutes of Seattle below $200k: tiny parcels of marginal land that will be challenging to build on, mobile homes (often in senior only communities) or houseboats on leased land/water, and a few teardowns on the very edges of that area.

There are plenty of smart, industrious, well off people with high risk tolerances in the Seattle market desperate for any whiff of a good deal. This is not an inefficient market. Anything truly under priced still goes quickly.

Ok, I flipped it from "sold" to "for sale".   76 properties for sale.       Some may be too small for you but might be just right for others.   Some might be expandable over time, like my parent's and prior generations used to do.  Some are condos.
Some are in horrible condition, others appear to be in excellent condition.

You only need one.

FYI -- if you look at the pricing info tab on a property it will often list how often it has been offered for sale and at what price.  It will show how many days the property has been on the market.  There are ones on the market as I write this that have been available for months.   One of the ones I mentioned previously had been on the market gobs of times over the last decade and didn't sell.

So, again, the properties are there, for sale, and some of them might be more than suitable for a mustachian family.

Of that 76, quite a few listings are "We will build this home on the land you provide and develop".  That home price is $170k+... plus land, plus city connections / development, plus landscaping, plus appliances, etc.

I would have thought Zillow would filter out the "homes" that are just ads by contractors.

SwordGuy,  you make an excellent argument to people to look around to buy less home, and save a lot of money by doing so.  Example, you second Bremerton "house" is actually a 25 year old mobile home.   What's wrong with saving money by living in an older mobile home that is fixed up nicely?

I think pulling from Zillow and insisting that these homes are available is a bit delusional, and your valid points are getting knocked down because of that.

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10859
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1961 on: December 10, 2019, 04:25:47 PM »
I haven’t looked at the specific properties, but stuff that’s been on the market many times and for long times without selling is not likely a good deal.  It probably has major issues that are preventing serious buyers at that price point.
I've seen this in my neighborhood too, not Seattle.

If homes have gone on sale over and over for years or decades, they have already been priced about $200k high. They are rentals where the owner is trying to cash in. And they paid next to nothing but instead of selling a $1M house for that, they want 1.25 million.

The other things that I see, mentioned above, is sales to family. Some in cases of divorce. Look this house was only $324k? No that's Peters house, he and his wife split, he bought her out.

The final thing I've seen, once, literal teardown.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1962 on: December 10, 2019, 05:42:10 PM »
Of that 76, quite a few listings are "We will build this home on the land you provide and develop".  That home price is $170k+... plus land, plus city connections / development, plus landscaping, plus appliances, etc.

I would have thought Zillow would filter out the "homes" that are just ads by contractors.

SwordGuy,  you make an excellent argument to people to look around to buy less home, and save a lot of money by doing so.  Example, you second Bremerton "house" is actually a 25 year old mobile home.   What's wrong with saving money by living in an older mobile home that is fixed up nicely?

I think pulling from Zillow and insisting that these homes are available is a bit delusional, and your valid points are getting knocked down because of that.

There absolutely are incorrectly coded items on Zillow.  No contest.    Gobs of them.   

I'm not insisting that **ALL** the listings on Zillow are worthwhile.   No one should walk away from this discussion believing that Zillow is 100% accurate.

It is **more** accurate for sold data than it is on "for sale" data.   So, let's make some assumptions on the data quality and what that means.

Please note that I'm discussing actual transfers of property, not offers for sale in the next section.  It's an important distinction.

I posted a link for a search for 1+ bedroom, 1+ bathroom living quarters that were sold in the last year, from $50k to $200k in price.

Over 1800 showed up as having been sold.

Let's suppose that Zillow's data quality on those sales and that property is inaccurate on the order of 50%. 
That's right, we're assuming that 50% of the items in that search criteria don't really qualify.

So, instead of over 1800 qualified properties sold in the last year, that would get us down to 900.

You only need one home to live in.    Those looking for a home in the Seattle area could have been one of those 900 buyers.

Let's assume the data is 75% inaccurate.   Now we're down to only 450 qualifying properties that were sold in the last year.

Again, you only need one home to live in.   You'll have to work harder or be a mite luckier than for 900, but 450 buyers did it.   Why not  one of us?

Now let's talk about the "for sale" portion.  There are inaccuracies there, too.   

I've slogged thru hundreds of properties online in my area and realized that a goodly number of them are miscoded and aren't of interest.   Some of them look good (or at least plausible) online so I go look at them in person.   I've walked away from scores of properties that either didn't measure up to the online description or the online description was too useless to be sure one way or the other.

And yet I've still bought 9 distressed homes for below market value.   It was work to find them.  Two of them I was particularly interested in took several years each.   I found more than 9 that would be suitable, but sometimes I got outbid, sometimes I didn't have the money to buy all I found.

There are documented real estate searching techniques that real estate investors use to find properties to at below market.    Will they work for every single person in every single market at every single point in time?   HELL NO!

The one thing I can absolutely guarantee is that if you don't try using them they won't work for you.

The Real Estate and Landlording sub-forum has a  sticky-thread with books and websites to read.   Your local library will probably have some of them.   

With time and persistence, and possibly a touch of luck, folks might find much more affordable living quarters.   There will be trade-offs that will be fine for some and not for others.  Okey-dokey.

I'll close with an observation on the nature of this discussion.   The objections to even trying this bear a whole lot of resemblance to those folks who refuse to try FIRE principles.   Think about it.

Maybe someone is right about their specific real estate market.  Maybe it won't work in (fill in the blank real estate market name here) at (fill in the time period here).   Could be.   Then again, it might.   

For someone motivated enough by the chance to save tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands, I say it's worth a try.  You might look at hundreds of properties online and scores in person before you find a property that's right for you -- and you still might be outbid.    Then again, you might not be outbid and save a bundle.

If nothing else, it might save you a bit on one of those expensive properties.  After you look at a four dozen houses that need work you start to learn what to look for and what it would cost to fix it.   That's useful knowledge!
That knowledge might also help a friend or family member in a more suitable market save a bundle.  That's good too.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1963 on: December 10, 2019, 05:44:46 PM »
I haven’t looked at the specific properties, but stuff that’s been on the market many times and for long times without selling is not likely a good deal.  It probably has major issues that are preventing serious buyers at that price point.
I've seen this in my neighborhood too, not Seattle.

If homes have gone on sale over and over for years or decades, they have already been priced about $200k high. They are rentals where the owner is trying to cash in. And they paid next to nothing but instead of selling a $1M house for that, they want 1.25 million.

After being chastised so strongly for suggesting that it might be possible to find living quarters at much lower prices, the irony of someone observing that the prices I've found might be too high makes me chuckle.  :)

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5267
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1964 on: December 10, 2019, 08:32:59 PM »
soooooooo, did anyone over hear anything at work today?

It's really quite in my office today.

CW: Come eat lunch with us! It's good for team-building...
Me: No thanks, I try to keep my lunch to 15 minutes so that I can catch the early train and get more family time. I only get about 1.5 hours with my kid on workdays.
CW: Wanting to spend time with your family will fade.

Wanting to eat out and more interested in spending time at work than with family? I'll pass.

I wish people didn’t buy mindlessly into the “buy a big house/get married/have a bunch of kids/spend way too much time at work” trope. I encounter many adults who seem to want nothing more than to escape the life they’ve created for themselves and act like their lives just happened to them. Seriously, people, wake up and make up your own minds about major life decisions.

DadJokes, I think it’s lovely that you prioritize time with your kid. I wish my dad had done that.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9918
  • Registered member
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1965 on: December 10, 2019, 08:46:08 PM »
I haven’t looked at the specific properties, but stuff that’s been on the market many times and for long times without selling is not likely a good deal.  It probably has major issues that are preventing serious buyers at that price point.
I've seen this in my neighborhood too, not Seattle.

If homes have gone on sale over and over for years or decades, they have already been priced about $200k high. They are rentals where the owner is trying to cash in. And they paid next to nothing but instead of selling a $1M house for that, they want 1.25 million.

After being chastised so strongly for suggesting that it might be possible to find living quarters at much lower prices, the irony of someone observing that the prices I've found might be too high makes me chuckle.  :)

Just because something is cheap doesn’t make it a good deal.  I thought your point was that there were good deals on cheap and habitable homes.  But forgive me, it’s been a drawn out multilateral discussion.  What was your main point?  I have a feeling we all fundamentally agree more than out nitpicking of specifics would suggest

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1966 on: December 10, 2019, 09:21:57 PM »
I encounter many adults who seem to want nothing more than to escape the life they’ve created for themselves and act like their lives just happened to them. Seriously, people, wake up and make up your own minds about major life decisions.

Well said.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1967 on: December 11, 2019, 12:33:05 AM »
I'm from the same area as Imma, and vacation homes in general cannot be registered as official address.

Our bank offered us 6.5x my income as mortgage; I refused and didn't want to take out more than 4.5x my income. I knew my income was going to go up and husband would be starting to work soon. He did, and then our mortgage was just 2.5x our income. We bought a home in a small village, that needed a lot of renovation we couldn't do ourselves, so we paid out around €50,000 for renovations, and received around €10,000 in subsidies for those renovations :)

Our kitchen extension (there when we bought the house) has now started to leak, so we will have more renovations coming up, this time with a proper architect to maximize any changes we (need to) make, and make this house liveable for the next 40 years. I don't want to leave the village, having settled in, and properties that are coming on to the market right now are all fixer-uppers for at least €300,000. My commute (by electric bike) is only 30 minutes, and as commutes are a waste of time, I don't want to move further out.

Yeah the market is insane these days :( Just the other day I saw a tiny one bedroom apartment in my neighbourhood for sale for €200k. Most people haven't paid that for a house in this area, we certainly didn't! The building is awful, the kind of place where all the balconies look like a dump and you'd pay about €800 in mortgage and service costs for the privilege of living there + bills, taxes etc. The average net income is 2100/month in our country and this isn't a HCOL city. Renting from a private landlord would be even more expensive.

I wish more cities would be a little more laid back about vacation homes. A friend of mine lived in one for a couple of years and it was lovely. I think they registered at their parents house (which can affect people negatively financially sometimes, it can be risky) and they lived in a really nice 2 bedroom place in a corner of a park, surrounded by trees. It was almost like living in the middle of the woods.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1968 on: December 11, 2019, 06:02:45 AM »
@Imma, I don't understand about "vacation homes" and not allowing people to live in them year round.  Why not allow it?  Is there something different about them?

UncleX

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 141
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1969 on: December 11, 2019, 06:35:33 AM »
I don't understand about "vacation homes" and not allowing people to live in them year round.  Why not allow it?  Is there something different about them?
These houses don't have a residential destination, just a recreational destination. Nothing really different about them and most of them are perfectly suited to live in. It is just not allowed. The idea is that people who recreate spend more money than people who live, because they are on a holiday. Also often these houses are in more vulnerable environments like woods and the building demands for recreational houses are less strict. There may be more reasons, most of them tax related I would guess. I think this is a thing in the Netherland only, not in other countries in Europe. And municipalities can decide to allow it after all, but most don’t.

It is also not very easy to get permission to live in a tiny house or a trailer in the Netherlands, probably for more or less the same reasons.

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1970 on: December 11, 2019, 06:59:00 AM »
I know someone who lives on a houseboat in Yellowknife.  Think a regular house on a floating platform.  He doesn't have to pay property taxes, but he has to shit in a bag.  Other than that it sounds like an awesome deal, he's pretty self sufficient out there with solar and propane.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1971 on: December 11, 2019, 08:21:18 AM »
Today we ate cake at work for my second last day (because tomorrow is a chaos day at work with achristmas food all day). I have told my coworkers I am taking a whole year off (but it is FIRE). My boss told me again that taking a year off is pure luxury. She said she couldn't do it, because she is too much in debt, which I think means mortgage debt. And she presumed everybody else was in the same debt situation. Most of my coworkers are 40+ and my boss must be approaching 50.

Wrenchturner

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Canada
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1972 on: December 11, 2019, 10:14:05 AM »
Today we ate cake at work for my second last day (because tomorrow is a chaos day at work with achristmas food all day). I have told my coworkers I am taking a whole year off (but it is FIRE). My boss told me again that taking a year off is pure luxury. She said she couldn't do it, because she is too much in debt, which I think means mortgage debt. And she presumed everybody else was in the same debt situation. Most of my coworkers are 40+ and my boss must be approaching 50.

Congratulations!  Maybe your boss will learn something from this.

techwiz

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3716
  • Location: Ontario
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1973 on: December 11, 2019, 10:16:03 AM »
Today we ate cake at work for my second last day (because tomorrow is a chaos day at work with achristmas food all day). I have told my coworkers I am taking a whole year off (but it is FIRE). My boss told me again that taking a year off is pure luxury. She said she couldn't do it, because she is too much in debt, which I think means mortgage debt. And she presumed everybody else was in the same debt situation. Most of my coworkers are 40+ and my boss must be approaching 50.

Does cake taste better when you know tomorrow is your last day at work?  Congratulations!

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1974 on: December 11, 2019, 11:19:15 AM »
Today we ate cake at work for my second last day (because tomorrow is a chaos day at work with achristmas food all day). I have told my coworkers I am taking a whole year off (but it is FIRE). My boss told me again that taking a year off is pure luxury. She said she couldn't do it, because she is too much in debt, which I think means mortgage debt. And she presumed everybody else was in the same debt situation. Most of my coworkers are 40+ and my boss must be approaching 50.

Does cake taste better when you know tomorrow is your last day at work?  Congratulations!

It tasted very good. The text on the cake was "have a nice trip", as I told them I will have lots of outdoor trips.

DadJokes

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2360
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1975 on: December 11, 2019, 11:45:38 AM »
Today we ate cake at work for my second last day (because tomorrow is a chaos day at work with achristmas food all day). I have told my coworkers I am taking a whole year off (but it is FIRE). My boss told me again that taking a year off is pure luxury. She said she couldn't do it, because she is too much in debt, which I think means mortgage debt. And she presumed everybody else was in the same debt situation. Most of my coworkers are 40+ and my boss must be approaching 50.

Does cake taste better when you know tomorrow is your last day at work?  Congratulations!

It tasted very good. The text on the cake was "have a nice trip", as I told them I will have lots of outdoor trips.

If my cake doesn't look like the one below at my eventual retirement, I'll be extremely disappointed.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1976 on: December 11, 2019, 12:27:31 PM »
I don't understand about "vacation homes" and not allowing people to live in them year round.  Why not allow it?  Is there something different about them?
These houses don't have a residential destination, just a recreational destination. Nothing really different about them and most of them are perfectly suited to live in. It is just not allowed. The idea is that people who recreate spend more money than people who live, because they are on a holiday. Also often these houses are in more vulnerable environments like woods and the building demands for recreational houses are less strict. There may be more reasons, most of them tax related I would guess. I think this is a thing in the Netherland only, not in other countries in Europe. And municipalities can decide to allow it after all, but most don’t.

It is also not very easy to get permission to live in a tiny house or a trailer in the Netherlands, probably for more or less the same reasons.

These laws originate from the days that slum housing was an issue (early 20th century) so the intent was good. Basically anything that Americans would call a trailer is not considered fit for permanent living. During the second half of the 29th century urban planning also really took off and there's a string desire to plan neat and tidy neighbourhoods instead of people building what they like, where they like.

There are good sides to this as well: there's a pretty clear distinction between rural and urban areas and we try to protect vulnerable landscapes. But in our tiny country the housing shortage is very extreme and it does cause an 'underclass' of people who live in illegal housing situations, who are therefore more vulnerable because they live in fear of being kicked out. These people are either formally homeless or they are registed at an address they don't formally live at, which can create it's own set of problems for all parties involved.

For this reason home ownership is extremely important to me. It's the only way to guarantee a good place to live and because it's a bit bigger than we need we have been able to offer friends short term, legal roofs over their head. It took us a while to get to where we are now and we love to help out others in the same situation as we were.

dcheesi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1977 on: December 13, 2019, 08:40:35 AM »
I don't understand about "vacation homes" and not allowing people to live in them year round.  Why not allow it?  Is there something different about them?
These houses don't have a residential destination, just a recreational destination. Nothing really different about them and most of them are perfectly suited to live in. It is just not allowed. The idea is that people who recreate spend more money than people who live, because they are on a holiday. Also often these houses are in more vulnerable environments like woods and the building demands for recreational houses are less strict. There may be more reasons, most of them tax related I would guess. I think this is a thing in the Netherland only, not in other countries in Europe. And municipalities can decide to allow it after all, but most don’t.

It is also not very easy to get permission to live in a tiny house or a trailer in the Netherlands, probably for more or less the same reasons.

These laws originate from the days that slum housing was an issue (early 20th century) so the intent was good. Basically anything that Americans would call a trailer is not considered fit for permanent living. During the second half of the 29th century urban planning also really took off and there's a string desire to plan neat and tidy neighbourhoods instead of people building what they like, where they like.

There are good sides to this as well: there's a pretty clear distinction between rural and urban areas and we try to protect vulnerable landscapes. But in our tiny country the housing shortage is very extreme and it does cause an 'underclass' of people who live in illegal housing situations, who are therefore more vulnerable because they live in fear of being kicked out. These people are either formally homeless or they are registed at an address they don't formally live at, which can create it's own set of problems for all parties involved.

For this reason home ownership is extremely important to me. It's the only way to guarantee a good place to live and because it's a bit bigger than we need we have been able to offer friends short term, legal roofs over their head. It took us a while to get to where we are now and we love to help out others in the same situation as we were.
That's what's a little surprising to me about this. In many places in the US, the municipalities specifically try to restrict short-term vacation rentals, which otherwise tend to take over and replace the affordable long-term rentals. So this Netherlands regulation seems exactly backwards from my perspective.

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4553
  • Age: 51
  • Location: SoCal
    • Our Sea Story
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1978 on: December 13, 2019, 08:48:40 AM »
I don't understand about "vacation homes" and not allowing people to live in them year round.  Why not allow it?  Is there something different about them?
These houses don't have a residential destination, just a recreational destination. Nothing really different about them and most of them are perfectly suited to live in. It is just not allowed. The idea is that people who recreate spend more money than people who live, because they are on a holiday. Also often these houses are in more vulnerable environments like woods and the building demands for recreational houses are less strict. There may be more reasons, most of them tax related I would guess. I think this is a thing in the Netherland only, not in other countries in Europe. And municipalities can decide to allow it after all, but most don’t.

It is also not very easy to get permission to live in a tiny house or a trailer in the Netherlands, probably for more or less the same reasons.

These laws originate from the days that slum housing was an issue (early 20th century) so the intent was good. Basically anything that Americans would call a trailer is not considered fit for permanent living. During the second half of the 29th century urban planning also really took off and there's a string desire to plan neat and tidy neighbourhoods instead of people building what they like, where they like.

There are good sides to this as well: there's a pretty clear distinction between rural and urban areas and we try to protect vulnerable landscapes. But in our tiny country the housing shortage is very extreme and it does cause an 'underclass' of people who live in illegal housing situations, who are therefore more vulnerable because they live in fear of being kicked out. These people are either formally homeless or they are registed at an address they don't formally live at, which can create it's own set of problems for all parties involved.

For this reason home ownership is extremely important to me. It's the only way to guarantee a good place to live and because it's a bit bigger than we need we have been able to offer friends short term, legal roofs over their head. It took us a while to get to where we are now and we love to help out others in the same situation as we were.
That's what's a little surprising to me about this. In many places in the US, the municipalities specifically try to restrict short-term vacation rentals, which otherwise tend to take over and replace the affordable long-term rentals. So this Netherlands regulation seems exactly backwards from my perspective.

The US has plenty of places that are prohibited from full time occupation, as well. This is especially true in rural vacation areas (my family has such a cabin), but another common prohibition is living on your boat in protected waters.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3672
  • Location: Germany
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1979 on: December 15, 2019, 06:11:55 AM »
That's what's a little surprising to me about this. In many places in the US, the municipalities specifically try to restrict short-term vacation rentals, which otherwise tend to take over and replace the affordable long-term rentals. So this Netherlands regulation seems exactly backwards from my perspective.

Here too. Many tourist-y cities have restrictions. Like Berlin, which also has quite strict rent constrol laws.

It is no surprise landlords prefer a vacation home that they can rent for 1000€ three weeks a month to a normal renter who pays just one time 1000€ for the whole month. Especially if you are obstructed to increase normal rents.

They may have an eye opening moment when their cleaning lady quits because she cannot live inside 20km anymore, but by then it is too late.

Cadman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1980 on: December 15, 2019, 10:00:25 AM »
The US has plenty of places that are prohibited from full time occupation, as well. This is especially true in rural vacation areas (my family has such a cabin), but another common prohibition is living on your boat in protected waters.

I have never heard of such a thing in the US. The rural cabins I'm familiar with would be inhospitable during the winter, but I'm not sure who would prevent you from staying on your own property? How is such a thing enforced?

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5267
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1981 on: December 15, 2019, 10:25:12 AM »
The US has plenty of places that are prohibited from full time occupation, as well. This is especially true in rural vacation areas (my family has such a cabin), but another common prohibition is living on your boat in protected waters.

I have never heard of such a thing in the US. The rural cabins I'm familiar with would be inhospitable during the winter, but I'm not sure who would prevent you from staying on your own property? How is such a thing enforced?

Maybe it's more of a "you're on your own, stay at your own risk" sort of policy. Like, if you have a remote cabin in unincorporated territory in the northern US, you can't reasonably expect timely emergency services during winter.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1982 on: December 15, 2019, 11:24:25 AM »
The US has plenty of places that are prohibited from full time occupation, as well. This is especially true in rural vacation areas (my family has such a cabin), but another common prohibition is living on your boat in protected waters.

I have never heard of such a thing in the US. The rural cabins I'm familiar with would be inhospitable during the winter, but I'm not sure who would prevent you from staying on your own property? How is such a thing enforced?

Maybe it's more of a "you're on your own, stay at your own risk" sort of policy. Like, if you have a remote cabin in unincorporated territory in the northern US, you can't reasonably expect timely emergency services during winter.

The consequences are far more severe. In many countries in Europe, everyone needs to be registered to an address (Napoleon's idea).

If a property doesn't have planning permission for permanent residency then you can't register yourself on that address. If you are not registered, the government doesn't consider you a resident of the country, so you cannot access any government service (no benefits, no social security, no renewing a drivers license or ID etc). The other option is to register at an address you don't actually live at. But that means you're formally a member of that household. Which means they pay local taxes (based on household size) for you and it also may mean your income is considered part of their household income which is important for income based government benefits. Which is everything from health care subsidies to income-based daycare prices to rent subsidies to social security.

I'm in the rare position that it wouldn't matter to us if someone moved in, except for local taxes. We don't have kids, don't receive subsidies or benefits or social security or pension.

Hula Hoop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Location: Italy
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1983 on: December 15, 2019, 11:37:12 AM »
The consequences are far more severe. In many countries in Europe, everyone needs to be registered to an address (Napoleon's idea).

OT but I didn't realize that this was a Europe-wide phenomenon or that it was Napoleon's idea.  I just thought it was a weird Italian thing.  Here in Italy, when you move house you have to inform the local government and they send a police officer to literally check that you live where you say you do.  In my case, I found it very invasive as he came by when I was eating breakfast in my pajamas and proceeded to barge in and check my kitchen cupboards and clothes closet.  He also spoke to one of my neighbors to ask if I really lived there.  Do they do this also in the Netherlands? 

It really bothers me having to tell the government my business (ie. where I live) but I guess it makes things more efficient for them if you don't have privacy concerns.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7946
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1984 on: December 15, 2019, 11:45:01 AM »
Hula, I find that bizarre. What happens if you are homeless?

Hula Hoop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Location: Italy
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1985 on: December 15, 2019, 11:56:11 AM »
Hula, I find that bizarre. What happens if you are homeless?

I have absolutely no idea!

gaja

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1681
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1986 on: December 15, 2019, 12:01:30 PM »
Hula, I find that bizarre. What happens if you are homeless?

Norway here, but kind of the same system as the Netherlands and Italy (no police visit, though). The upside of the welfare system is that it takes a lot for people to be homeless. The municipality you are registered with are responsible for finding you housing and other types of help. The downside is that there are cracks to fall through, and when that happens we all get very confused. There have been a few cases in the media lately about people who have tried to survive outside the system, and have been registered as "emigrated or dead". After three years of no address, your rights to welfare help and medical assistance (outside emergency care) expire.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3672
  • Location: Germany
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1987 on: December 15, 2019, 01:23:08 PM »
The consequences are far more severe. In many countries in Europe, everyone needs to be registered to an address (Napoleon's idea).

OT but I didn't realize that this was a Europe-wide phenomenon or that it was Napoleon's idea.  I just thought it was a weird Italian thing.  Here in Italy, when you move house you have to inform the local government and they send a police officer to literally check that you live where you say you do.  In my case, I found it very invasive as he came by when I was eating breakfast in my pajamas and proceeded to barge in and check my kitchen cupboards and clothes closet.  He also spoke to one of my neighbors to ask if I really lived there.  Do they do this also in the Netherlands? 

It really bothers me having to tell the government my business (ie. where I live) but I guess it makes things more efficient for them if you don't have privacy concerns.

That sounds really strange. Too many police? lol

In Germany you have to register at your address but nobody comes to check.

Cadman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1988 on: December 15, 2019, 01:45:56 PM »
Hula, I find that bizarre. What happens if you are homeless?

Or a full-time RV'er? I guess perhaps that's not too common in Europe, or they register with a family member's address? Here in the states there's a movement of selling one's home and traveling the US full-time. There are even mail-forwarding services catering specifically to this crowd because they have no permanent address.

gaja

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1681
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1989 on: December 15, 2019, 02:11:20 PM »
Hula, I find that bizarre. What happens if you are homeless?

Or a full-time RV'er? I guess perhaps that's not too common in Europe, or they register with a family member's address? Here in the states there's a movement of selling one's home and traveling the US full-time. There are even mail-forwarding services catering specifically to this crowd because they have no permanent address.

In Norway: You get registered as UFB ("no permanent adress"), either in the municipality where you are living, or just generally. That makes everything difficult; from getting help from the welfare state, to getting a phone subscription. And if you keep that status for too long, the system might have a hickup and declare you dead.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1990 on: December 15, 2019, 03:08:28 PM »
These days you can just notify your local government online in NL, checks are rare and only happen in case of suspected fraud - and even then it's a civil servant not a cop who comes to visit. We barely have the police capacity to even keep up with organized crime.

If you're homeless, that's a really tough situation. If you're lucky you can register with someone else but many people who are homeless only know other people who are poor/struggling and likely on income support so they can't register there. Shelters sometimes allow you to register there. In my country there's a separate register for homeless people and those people do get checks - they have to report where they are sleeping and civil servants visit them there. They can get some cash to buy food or pay for a place in the shelter (usually around €5/night) with that money.

If you are a fulltime traveller it's really difficult. I don't know the details as it isn't super common to actually live in a vehicle here, but there are books and websites about how to make that happen, so there are some ways around it. I know more than a few retirees who spend winters in warmer climates, but they generally keep their homes in NL so they are registed there. One of my neighbours is away all winter in their RV.

Siebrie

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 144
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1991 on: December 16, 2019, 05:50:35 AM »
In Belgium the police come and check. They came very early in the morning, as I was breastfeeding my dd in bed, and dh was hoovering our studio in his bathrobe :) This somehow also convinced the officer that we were in a proper relationship, which was the second reason she came to check on us:)
There is a lot of fraud, especially in Brussels, with people claiming being properly married for residence and work permit reasons.

In The Netherlands the police won't come, but the Social Benefits people may come round to count toothbrushes and underwear to see if everyone claiming to (not) live in a house is actually (not) living there. Benefits for two single people not living together are higher than that of two people living together (based on the idea that some costs like rent and heating only need to be paid once), so they might come and check if the single person is really living alone.

Hula Hoop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Location: Italy
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1992 on: December 16, 2019, 01:42:55 PM »
Hula, I find that bizarre. What happens if you are homeless?

Norway here, but kind of the same system as the Netherlands and Italy (no police visit, though). The upside of the welfare system is that it takes a lot for people to be homeless. The municipality you are registered with are responsible for finding you housing and other types of help. The downside is that there are cracks to fall through, and when that happens we all get very confused. There have been a few cases in the media lately about people who have tried to survive outside the system, and have been registered as "emigrated or dead". After three years of no address, your rights to welfare help and medical assistance (outside emergency care) expire.

This may apply to countries like Norway, but not much welfare help here in Italy and there are tons of homeless people.  When I come home late at night from a social event the piazza near my house is a virtual dormitory.  The welfare state (apart from medical care) is more extensive in my home state in the US than in Italy IMO.  There is very little public housing here and unemployment benefits are extremely skimpy.  There are also no food stamps.  Basically, your family is meant to look after you if you can't work for whatever reason.  If you don't have a family then you're (more or less) on your own.

gaja

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1681
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1993 on: December 16, 2019, 02:04:05 PM »
Hula, I find that bizarre. What happens if you are homeless?

Norway here, but kind of the same system as the Netherlands and Italy (no police visit, though). The upside of the welfare system is that it takes a lot for people to be homeless. The municipality you are registered with are responsible for finding you housing and other types of help. The downside is that there are cracks to fall through, and when that happens we all get very confused. There have been a few cases in the media lately about people who have tried to survive outside the system, and have been registered as "emigrated or dead". After three years of no address, your rights to welfare help and medical assistance (outside emergency care) expire.

This may apply to countries like Norway, but not much welfare help here in Italy and there are tons of homeless people.  When I come home late at night from a social event the piazza near my house is a virtual dormitory.  The welfare state (apart from medical care) is more extensive in my home state in the US than in Italy IMO.  There is very little public housing here and unemployment benefits are extremely skimpy.  There are also no food stamps.  Basically, your family is meant to look after you if you can't work for whatever reason.  If you don't have a family then you're (more or less) on your own.

The boat refugees also have had a much larger impact on Italy than on Norway. I'm sorry we haven't stepped up more.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1994 on: December 16, 2019, 04:32:47 PM »
In my country the welfare state is much more generous than in Italy but the housing shortage is so extreme that no one can find you a place to live if you don't have €€€. I am actually surprised we don't have way more homeless people on the streets. I think one reason for that is that our country is so small and culturally people are less likely to move away from their hometown, so many people who end up without a permanent place to live can rely on their social network for a roof over their head and there's a relatively big chance that location is within commuting distance from work. I'm a mustachian with savings, a degree and an income and if my partner and I would split up, I wouldn't be able to afford to rent a one bedroom apartment on my own. The housing shortage I think is one of the main reasons for hostility towards refugees.

We have something similar to welfare in the US sense which pays 100% of minimum wage for a family, 70% to a single parent and 50% to a single person. The rules are extremely strict and don't dare to step out of the tight little box we've defined for you or you face steep penalties and fines.

Social insurances (unemployment, disability) come with less strict rules and income based payments but you don't get paid out unless you've paid in and with the gig economy less people qualify to pay in.

Hirondelle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1598
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1995 on: December 24, 2019, 07:39:40 AM »
If you are a fulltime traveller it's really difficult. I don't know the details as it isn't super common to actually live in a vehicle here, but there are books and websites about how to make that happen, so there are some ways around it. I know more than a few retirees who spend winters in warmer climates, but they generally keep their homes in NL so they are registed there. One of my neighbours is away all winter in their RV.

To add to the 'this is how it works in Europe!'-page of this thread; I know a little about this.

Full time RV'ing is rare/non-existent in my country, but full time travel is not. If you plan to stay out of the country for over 8 months consecutively (some sources even say it's per calendar year, so if you do the last 7 months of 2019, then the first 7 of 2020 you should still be good but don't pin me down on this) you need to de-register yourself as a resident. This means you do not need to pay for national health insurance, do not pay any taxes (unless you have local income) but also do not build up any Social Security (which in contrast to the US is based on numbers of years you've lived here instead of how much you worked).

Most full time travelers I know just register somewhere else. If you have parents or grandparents that have no social benefits it's easy to register at their place and just compensate them for the extra taxes. I've done this twice when living abroad >8 months. As most full time travelers don't have any (registered) income it doesn't come with too many tax/benefits implications for the people already living there.

Another way to pull it off if you're a home-owner is to rent out your house while staying registered yourself (so pretending you're just renting out a room)

Usually the government doesn't check much, unless they get suspicious (e.g. living with your parents at age 40, no income or significant assets, yet no government benefits)

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9918
  • Registered member
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1996 on: December 24, 2019, 12:48:56 PM »
To be fair, if you are a time traveler you probably don’t worry too much about government regulations.  Apprentice time travelers might, but not full time travelers.

IsThisAGoodUsername

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • Location: USA
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1997 on: December 24, 2019, 03:45:25 PM »
To be fair, if you are a time traveler you probably don’t worry too much about government regulations.  Apprentice time travelers might, but not full time travelers.

Just remember to come back before you leave!

PDXTabs

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5160
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1998 on: December 24, 2019, 04:36:40 PM »
In many countries in Europe, everyone needs to be registered to an address (Napoleon's idea).

Strictly speaking this is also true in every US state that I am aware of if you have a state drivers license or ID card (which is almost everyone). This comes in handy when the police need to find someone (like if your parent dies). However, in the real world in the states these laws are rarely enforced unless you are dodging taxes. If you are dodging taxes there are people on staff to find you.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2019, 04:39:20 PM by PDXTabs »

Panly

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 136
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1999 on: December 24, 2019, 11:29:51 PM »
The consequences are far more severe. In many countries in Europe, everyone needs to be registered to an address (Napoleon's idea).

OT but I didn't realize that this was a Europe-wide phenomenon or that it was Napoleon's idea.  I just thought it was a weird Italian thing.  Here in Italy, when you move house you have to inform the local government and they send a police officer to literally check that you live where you say you do.  In my case, I found it very invasive as he came by when I was eating breakfast in my pajamas and proceeded to barge in and check my kitchen cupboards and clothes closet.  He also spoke to one of my neighbors to ask if I really lived there.  Do they do this also in the Netherlands? 

It really bothers me having to tell the government my business (ie. where I live) but I guess it makes things more efficient for them if you don't have privacy concerns.

That sounds really strange. Too many police? lol

In Germany you have to register at your address but nobody comes to check.

But nowadays in order to be able to register,
you need to bring a form signed by the landlord who confirms that you live in his rental.