Author Topic: Overheard at Work 2  (Read 1112988 times)

flipboard

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #800 on: May 25, 2019, 10:52:40 AM »
Now that is an interesting reaction. Maybe it's down to US / Europe difference?

When you say nudging here - and people actually know what you are talking about - than it generally bad things that comes to mind. The flashing red "click here" (and give me all your data) button compared to the barely visible "You can also click here" (but we won't get to sell your data damn!) for example.
All that stuff in the supermarket that makes you buy things that you either don't need, not even wanted (placing, light, artificial smells).
And of course, if you have a country where people decide out of your free will, nudging them is the opposite of that - you basically declare that they are too dumb to make a good decision.

That may be right or not, but a use of nudging is often seen as incombatible with democracy. (And I don't even have to point to China and their Social Credit system for the next step of nudging, right?)

Not at all: the US is full of nudging, most people just don't choose to see it. Some of it is run by private companies - opinions seem to differ on whether letting non-democratically-controlled institutions have such power makes a country better or worse.

Credit Scores?
The way roads and neighbourhoods are designed?
Tax deductions for mortgages?
All the oil-related wars?

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20709
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #801 on: May 25, 2019, 01:56:40 PM »

Not at all: the US is full of nudging, most people just don't choose to see it.

Tax deductions for mortgages?


I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?  Here (Canada) our mortgage interest is not tax-deductible, but houses are not eligible for capital gains or losses either. They are outside that part of the tax world.  They are seen (tax-wise) as homes, not investments.  A second home or cottage is not treated the same, it is subject to all the investment rules.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #802 on: May 25, 2019, 04:05:55 PM »

Not at all: the US is full of nudging, most people just don't choose to see it.

Tax deductions for mortgages?


I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?  Here (Canada) our mortgage interest is not tax-deductible, but houses are not eligible for capital gains or losses either. They are outside that part of the tax world.  They are seen (tax-wise) as homes, not investments.  A second home or cottage is not treated the same, it is subject to all the investment rules.

The mortgage tax deduction, as written for many years, had the following two purposes:


1) To give people who could afford very expensive homes a very nice tax break and,

2) To convince middle class people who did not understand they wouldn't actually get to use the deduction that they could afford a more expensive house, so the bankers would make more money on interest.


Very few regular folks could take advantage of it.   

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20709
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #803 on: May 25, 2019, 04:41:21 PM »

Not at all: the US is full of nudging, most people just don't choose to see it.

Tax deductions for mortgages?


I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?  Here (Canada) our mortgage interest is not tax-deductible, but houses are not eligible for capital gains or losses either. They are outside that part of the tax world.  They are seen (tax-wise) as homes, not investments.  A second home or cottage is not treated the same, it is subject to all the investment rules.

The mortgage tax deduction, as written for many years, had the following two purposes:


1) To give people who could afford very expensive homes a very nice tax break and,

2) To convince middle class people who did not understand they wouldn't actually get to use the deduction that they could afford a more expensive house, so the bankers would make more money on interest.


Very few regular folks could take advantage of it.   

Given this, I think I prefer Canadian tax policy on houses and mortgages. We can't declare interest*, we can't declare a capital gain or a capital loss.  A house as principal residence is n ot an investment.

People sure do want to own one anyway.


*Well, technically.  You can borrow based on home equity to invest, and then declare that interest.

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5591
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #804 on: May 26, 2019, 11:26:29 AM »
I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?
I'm not quite as cynical as SwordGuy and RetiredAt63, or at least not as outwardly cynical. :)

As I understand it, the "nominal" purpose of the mortgage interest deduction is to encourage homeownership in general, because homeownership rates are correlated with a better economy.  IMO, policymakers have it backwards (a robust economy leads to higher homeownership, not vice versa), but like many entitlements/giveaways/deductions/credits/etc has metastasized to the point that getting rid of it would cause a huge uproar.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #805 on: May 26, 2019, 11:48:08 AM »
I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?
I'm not quite as cynical as SwordGuy and RetiredAt63, or at least not as outwardly cynical. :)

As I understand it, the "nominal" purpose of the mortgage interest deduction is to encourage homeownership in general, because homeownership rates are correlated with a better economy.  IMO, policymakers have it backwards (a robust economy leads to higher homeownership, not vice versa), but like many entitlements/giveaways/deductions/credits/etc has metastasized to the point that getting rid of it would cause a huge uproar.

Yep, by middle class folks who can't do math and don't understand tax law, who have been brainwashed into thinking it's a good deal for all of them.   


a286

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #806 on: May 26, 2019, 01:28:06 PM »
I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?
I'm not quite as cynical as SwordGuy and RetiredAt63, or at least not as outwardly cynical. :)

As I understand it, the "nominal" purpose of the mortgage interest deduction is to encourage homeownership in general, because homeownership rates are correlated with a better economy.  IMO, policymakers have it backwards (a robust economy leads to higher homeownership, not vice versa), but like many entitlements/giveaways/deductions/credits/etc has metastasized to the point that getting rid of it would cause a huge uproar.

Yep, by middle class folks who can't do math and don't understand tax law, who have been brainwashed into thinking it's a good deal for all of them.
My husband has a coworker who keeps telling him we need to buy because it will save us money on taxes...

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5591
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #807 on: May 26, 2019, 11:21:13 PM »
I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?
I'm not quite as cynical as SwordGuy and RetiredAt63, or at least not as outwardly cynical. :)

As I understand it, the "nominal" purpose of the mortgage interest deduction is to encourage homeownership in general, because homeownership rates are correlated with a better economy.  IMO, policymakers have it backwards (a robust economy leads to higher homeownership, not vice versa), but like many entitlements/giveaways/deductions/credits/etc has metastasized to the point that getting rid of it would cause a huge uproar.

Yep, by middle class folks who can't do math and don't understand tax law, who have been brainwashed into thinking it's a good deal for all of them.
My husband has a coworker who keeps telling him we need to buy because it will save us money on taxes...
Well, if renting is the same cost as PITI, he's right.  But I doubt it is.

MoseyingAlong

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 414
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #808 on: May 26, 2019, 11:41:03 PM »
I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?
I'm not quite as cynical as SwordGuy and RetiredAt63, or at least not as outwardly cynical. :)

As I understand it, the "nominal" purpose of the mortgage interest deduction is to encourage homeownership in general, because homeownership rates are correlated with a better economy.  IMO, policymakers have it backwards (a robust economy leads to higher homeownership, not vice versa), but like many entitlements/giveaways/deductions/credits/etc has metastasized to the point that getting rid of it would cause a huge uproar.

Yep, by middle class folks who can't do math and don't understand tax law, who have been brainwashed into thinking it's a good deal for all of them.
My husband has a coworker who keeps telling him we need to buy because it will save us money on taxes...
Well, if renting is the same cost as PITI, he's right.  But I doubt it is.

And that's one of the huge misunderstandings in the US. For most (no, I don't have the exact statistic at hand but it's on the IRS website) people in the US, the mortgage interest and property tax deductions do NOT help them at all in reducing their income taxes. The standard deduction is higher than their itemized deductions. That was true under the "old" tax law and is even more true under the "new" tax law with the higher standard deductions.

The HCOL/VHCOL areas have a slightly different issue but most people don't live in those areas. I really wish more people understood how deductions work.

Kitsune

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #809 on: May 27, 2019, 11:55:35 AM »
I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?
I'm not quite as cynical as SwordGuy and RetiredAt63, or at least not as outwardly cynical. :)

As I understand it, the "nominal" purpose of the mortgage interest deduction is to encourage homeownership in general, because homeownership rates are correlated with a better economy.  IMO, policymakers have it backwards (a robust economy leads to higher homeownership, not vice versa), but like many entitlements/giveaways/deductions/credits/etc has metastasized to the point that getting rid of it would cause a huge uproar.

Yep, by middle class folks who can't do math and don't understand tax law, who have been brainwashed into thinking it's a good deal for all of them.
My husband has a coworker who keeps telling him we need to buy because it will save us money on taxes...
Well, if renting is the same cost as PITI, he's right.  But I doubt it is.

And that's one of the huge misunderstandings in the US. For most (no, I don't have the exact statistic at hand but it's on the IRS website) people in the US, the mortgage interest and property tax deductions do NOT help them at all in reducing their income taxes. The standard deduction is higher than their itemized deductions. That was true under the "old" tax law and is even more true under the "new" tax law with the higher standard deductions.

The HCOL/VHCOL areas have a slightly different issue but most people don't live in those areas. I really wish more people understood how deductions work.

I mean, at a baseline, I really wish more people understood how MONEY works.

techwiz

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3716
  • Location: Ontario
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #810 on: May 27, 2019, 12:41:43 PM »
Co-worker was ticked off at the dealership this morning. He had made a deal to renew his lease on a new CR-V and they just texted him that the red one he wanted was not available. As I talked with him I got the background of this story. His currently leased car had a recall and the dealership convinced him to just renew his lease and get a new one since he could keep the same payments.

Me: Sorry man, dealerships are the worse I would say if they don't have the red one you should just cancel the whole deal. The recall is free anyways just get them to fix it and keep your current one, don't rush into a new lease just because of a recall.
Co-worker: No way, it's also due for maintenance of about $200. Well I guess I will just settle for the sliver one.
Me: Have you ever thought about not leasing and own your car and drive it until it stops running.
Co-worker:  I will never own a car I like the fact that I get a new car every two years by leasing and besides my payments are only $240 bi-weekly and they aren't going up, why would anyone stay with a older car.
Me: (After giving up on changing his mind on leasing) I am sure you will like the sliver one, congrats on the new car. 

cloudsail

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 556
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #811 on: May 27, 2019, 12:47:50 PM »
Co-worker was ticked off at the dealership this morning. He had made a deal to renew his lease on a new CR-V and they just texted him that the red one he wanted was not available. As I talked with him I got the background of this story. His currently leased car had a recall and the dealership convinced him to just renew his lease and get a new one since he could keep the same payments.

Me: Sorry man, dealerships are the worse I would say if they don't have the red one you should just cancel the whole deal. The recall is free anyways just get them to fix it and keep your current one, don't rush into a new lease just because of a recall.
Co-worker: No way, it's also due for maintenance of about $200. Well I guess I will just settle for the sliver one.
Me: Have you ever thought about not leasing and own your car and drive it until it stops running.
Co-worker:  I will never own a car I like the fact that I get a new car every two years by leasing and besides my payments are only $240 bi-weekly and they aren't going up, why would anyone stay with a older car.
Me: (After giving up on changing his mind on leasing) I am sure you will like the sliver one, congrats on the new car.

$240 bi-weekly is $480 a month! That's like, our family's monthly grocery bill!

SpeedReader

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Vancouver, WA
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #812 on: May 27, 2019, 12:55:22 PM »
Co-worker was ticked off at the dealership this morning. He had made a deal to renew his lease on a new CR-V and they just texted him that the red one he wanted was not available. As I talked with him I got the background of this story. His currently leased car had a recall and the dealership convinced him to just renew his lease and get a new one since he could keep the same payments.

Me: Sorry man, dealerships are the worse I would say if they don't have the red one you should just cancel the whole deal. The recall is free anyways just get them to fix it and keep your current one, don't rush into a new lease just because of a recall.
Co-worker: No way, it's also due for maintenance of about $200. Well I guess I will just settle for the sliver one.
Me: Have you ever thought about not leasing and own your car and drive it until it stops running.
Co-worker:  I will never own a car I like the fact that I get a new car every two years by leasing and besides my payments are only $240 bi-weekly and they aren't going up, why would anyone stay with a older car.
Me: (After giving up on changing his mind on leasing) I am sure you will like the sliver one, congrats on the new car.

$240 bi-weekly is $480 a month! That's like, our family's monthly grocery bill!

The monthly payment on my first house was only just over $500. 

techwiz

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3716
  • Location: Ontario
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #813 on: May 27, 2019, 01:05:25 PM »

The monthly payment on my first house was only just over $500. 

I didn't have the energy or time to try to explain to my co-worker that paying for the first two years of depreciation on a car every two years is a bad economical decision.

SpeedReader

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Vancouver, WA
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #814 on: May 27, 2019, 01:10:14 PM »

The monthly payment on my first house was only just over $500. 

I didn't have the energy or time to try to explain to my co-worker that paying for the first two years of depreciation on a car every two years is a bad economical decision.

Hey, you tried to help.  And once it was clear the help wasn't wanted, you gracefully stopped.  Sometimes that's the best you can do. 

bluebelle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
  • Location: near north Ontario
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #815 on: May 27, 2019, 01:24:00 PM »

The monthly payment on my first house was only just over $500. 

I didn't have the energy or time to try to explain to my co-worker that paying for the first two years of depreciation on a car every two years is a bad economical decision.

Hey, you tried to help.  And once it was clear the help wasn't wanted, you gracefully stopped.  Sometimes that's the best you can do.


LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3672
  • Location: Germany
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #816 on: May 27, 2019, 01:31:34 PM »
$240 bi-weekly is $480 a month! That's like, our family's monthly grocery bill!

That's like 10 times of my payments (calculatory depreciation) if my car holds itself as good as I hope (and tests say it should)!

redbird

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 546
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #817 on: May 27, 2019, 03:22:06 PM »
Co-worker was ticked off at the dealership this morning. He had made a deal to renew his lease on a new CR-V and they just texted him that the red one he wanted was not available. As I talked with him I got the background of this story. His currently leased car had a recall and the dealership convinced him to just renew his lease and get a new one since he could keep the same payments.

Me: Sorry man, dealerships are the worse I would say if they don't have the red one you should just cancel the whole deal. The recall is free anyways just get them to fix it and keep your current one, don't rush into a new lease just because of a recall.
Co-worker: No way, it's also due for maintenance of about $200. Well I guess I will just settle for the sliver one.
Me: Have you ever thought about not leasing and own your car and drive it until it stops running.
Co-worker:  I will never own a car I like the fact that I get a new car every two years by leasing and besides my payments are only $240 bi-weekly and they aren't going up, why would anyone stay with a older car.
Me: (After giving up on changing his mind on leasing) I am sure you will like the sliver one, congrats on the new car.

$240 bi-weekly is $480 a month! That's like, our family's monthly grocery bill!

What's really scary is comparing it directly to a car. I bought a 2010 Prius approximately 4 years ago. I paid about $11k for it in cash. 48 months x $480 = $23,040. So in 4 years of owning my Prius, I've saved over $12k compared to that guy. For every year I keep my Prius, I'm saving over $5700/year compared to him.

He may be (probably is) driving a nicer car than me, but still. That $$ adds up really fast. Also, a Prius may be boring, but the gas efficiency, the cheap maintenance (it's a reliable Toyota, hasn't had any issues, just pay for regular expected maintenance), and the surprising amount of carrying capacity thanks to the hatchback is amazing. I love my "boring" and "old" car. And I get to keep $480/month too! Wow. ;)

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4553
  • Age: 51
  • Location: SoCal
    • Our Sea Story
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #818 on: May 27, 2019, 04:09:02 PM »
I am so far gone I don't even understand wanting a new car every two years. I actually like being familiar with my car!

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5267
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #819 on: May 27, 2019, 07:24:05 PM »

The monthly payment on my first house was only just over $500. 

I didn't have the energy or time to try to explain to my co-worker that paying for the first two years of depreciation on a car every two years is a bad economical decision.

I don't even bother trying to explain this to my parents and in-laws.

js82

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #820 on: May 27, 2019, 07:28:01 PM »
Now this may have been particularly related to my academic food/health environment and I don't talk with people about the pros and cons of nudging all day, but I am pretty sure it is not considered a universally bad thing.

I don't consider the Social Credit System a form of nudging btw, as actual nudging doesn't exclude you from any choices - it just changes the default choice. The Social Credit System literally gives you points for good/bad actions, it doesn't make the default choice any different.

Yeah the Social Credit is a bad example, sorry. It is often clad in nudging language, that is why I got on it.

I also don't go around asking people what they think about nudging. But when that topic comes up it is nearly always the bad things. I am certainly biased here, coming from a political background ;)

Yea, I know about that food thing you described. Placing fruits right at the start, in a nice display, and people get fruits 40% more or so.

Good nudging is not coercive - it still allows the individual to maintain their freedom of choice, but tends to steer them in the direction of the decision with the better long-term outcome

Most of the "good" examples of nudging take one of two forms:
-Make the "best" choice(subjective) the default choice - e.g. opt-out vs. opt-in systems
-Make it minimally burdensome to make the "good" decision - eliminate as many barriers as possible that might otherwise deter someone from the desired behavior.  (and conversely, potentially make it slightly more difficult to achieve the undesirable behavior)

A good "nudging" system isn't punitive - it preserves free will while generally improving outcomes for those who make the "lazy" choice (or non-choice), and makes good choices "easier" to make than bad ones.

For those in this thread unfamiliar with the subject, Richard Thaler's books ("Misbehaving" and "Nudge") are an excellent place to pick up the basics of behavioral economics and origin of the concept of nudging.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #821 on: May 27, 2019, 07:31:55 PM »

The monthly payment on my first house was only just over $500. 

That was the principal and interest on our first house, at 9 3/8ths percent interest!   Yikes!   

Step37

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 465
  • Age: 50
  • Location: AB, Canada
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #822 on: May 27, 2019, 10:24:09 PM »
Co-worker was ticked off at the dealership this morning. He had made a deal to renew his lease on a new CR-V and they just texted him that the red one he wanted was not available. As I talked with him I got the background of this story. His currently leased car had a recall and the dealership convinced him to just renew his lease and get a new one since he could keep the same payments.

Me: Sorry man, dealerships are the worse I would say if they don't have the red one you should just cancel the whole deal. The recall is free anyways just get them to fix it and keep your current one, don't rush into a new lease just because of a recall.
Co-worker: No way, it's also due for maintenance of about $200. Well I guess I will just settle for the sliver one.
Me: Have you ever thought about not leasing and own your car and drive it until it stops running.
Co-worker:  I will never own a car I like the fact that I get a new car every two years by leasing and besides my payments are only $240 bi-weekly and they aren't going up, why would anyone stay with a older car.
Me: (After giving up on changing his mind on leasing) I am sure you will like the sliver one, congrats on the new car.

$240 bi-weekly is $480 a month! That's like, our family's monthly grocery bill!

Actually, $520/month. (26 payments per year)

My god, I can’t believe how commonly people make these astonishingly terrible decisions. And then complain about being broke.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #823 on: May 27, 2019, 11:48:13 PM »
Co-worker was ticked off at the dealership this morning. He had made a deal to renew his lease on a new CR-V and they just texted him that the red one he wanted was not available. As I talked with him I got the background of this story. His currently leased car had a recall and the dealership convinced him to just renew his lease and get a new one since he could keep the same payments.

Me: Sorry man, dealerships are the worse I would say if they don't have the red one you should just cancel the whole deal. The recall is free anyways just get them to fix it and keep your current one, don't rush into a new lease just because of a recall.
Co-worker: No way, it's also due for maintenance of about $200. Well I guess I will just settle for the sliver one.
Me: Have you ever thought about not leasing and own your car and drive it until it stops running.
Co-worker:  I will never own a car I like the fact that I get a new car every two years by leasing and besides my payments are only $240 bi-weekly and they aren't going up, why would anyone stay with a older car.
Me: (After giving up on changing his mind on leasing) I am sure you will like the sliver one, congrats on the new car.

$240 bi-weekly is $480 a month! That's like, our family's monthly grocery bill!

Actually, $520/month. (26 payments per year)

My god, I can’t believe how commonly people make these astonishingly terrible decisions. And then complain about being broke.

I do agree that leasing a car is not profitable in the long run.

But if I calculate how much our main car has depreciated through the years, we have have also paid a pretty large sum for the car per year. In our case, we paid cash for a brand new car, so the money was fully spent at the time we bought it. Now we only pay for maintenance. But maybe it is first now, 10 years old, that the car has stopped depreciating so much per year.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #824 on: May 28, 2019, 12:01:38 AM »
But if I calculate how much our main car has depreciated through the years, we have have also paid a pretty large sum for the car per year. In our case, we paid cash for a brand new car, so the money was fully spent at the time we bought it. Now we only pay for maintenance. But maybe it is first now, 10 years old, that the car has stopped depreciating so much per year.

Basically, when I buy a car I assume the resale value is $200, regardless of whether I paid $3500 for it or $16,000 for it.   

That's because I won't even consider selling it until it's worth that much or less.  I will drive that vehicle into the ground.   

So, for me, all depreciation comes on day 1.   I buy when I have to and not before, so, since I have to buy a car, I don't get bothered because it will lose value.  It has no monetary value to me.  It's an expense that provides transportation.

The only reason I would consider it for net worth purposes would be if I had a loan on it.   At that point it would be worth the lessor of 80% of what I paid for it or the balance of the loan.  That's because I could, in principle, sell it to discharge the car debt.  I now pay cash for the cars so I haven't had to do this calculation in 10 years.



jinga nation

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
  • Age: 247
  • Location: 'Murica's Dong
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #825 on: May 28, 2019, 05:51:30 AM »
doesn't matter if it's $480 or $520 per month.

It's $ X/month ONLY. Keyword ONLY.
 
That softens the blow and makes the swallowing/shafting palatable.

ONLY = salesman talk for "Let me gently bend you over. I'll throw in mats and pinstriping for free."

accountingteacher

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 56
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #826 on: May 28, 2019, 06:33:14 AM »
I am so far gone I don't even understand wanting a new car every two years. I actually like being familiar with my car!

I feel that way about phones.  When most people are exchanging theirs, I've just finished setting mine up the way I like it!

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5591
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #827 on: May 28, 2019, 09:16:00 AM »
I am so far gone I don't even understand wanting a new car every two years. I actually like being familiar with my car!
Especially since I do 90% of my own car maintenance/repair, tenure is a huge benefit.  Not only do I know where everything is and how to get it on/off, I'm also the last person to remove and replace those nuts and bolts, which means they haven't been over-torqued, and likely have anti-seize on them!

a286

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #828 on: May 28, 2019, 11:29:36 AM »
I've always wondered about that.  Is it an incentive to buy?
I'm not quite as cynical as SwordGuy and RetiredAt63, or at least not as outwardly cynical. :)

As I understand it, the "nominal" purpose of the mortgage interest deduction is to encourage homeownership in general, because homeownership rates are correlated with a better economy.  IMO, policymakers have it backwards (a robust economy leads to higher homeownership, not vice versa), but like many entitlements/giveaways/deductions/credits/etc has metastasized to the point that getting rid of it would cause a huge uproar.

Yep, by middle class folks who can't do math and don't understand tax law, who have been brainwashed into thinking it's a good deal for all of them.
My husband has a coworker who keeps telling him we need to buy because it will save us money on taxes...
Well, if renting is the same cost as PITI, he's right.  But I doubt it is.

And that's one of the huge misunderstandings in the US. For most (no, I don't have the exact statistic at hand but it's on the IRS website) people in the US, the mortgage interest and property tax deductions do NOT help them at all in reducing their income taxes. The standard deduction is higher than their itemized deductions. That was true under the "old" tax law and is even more true under the "new" tax law with the higher standard deductions.

The HCOL/VHCOL areas have a slightly different issue but most people don't live in those areas. I really wish more people understood how deductions work.

I mean, at a baseline, I really wish more people understood how MONEY works.
If only...

I left out the other half of what that coworker says, which is that the deductions also mean we can buy an even bigger house!

Were in the Denver metro,  so rent is high but houses are higher. Though weve gone with option 3, which is staying with my in laws. Obviously that's not an option for everyone. We pay them rent each month plus contribute to other things like groceries andsuch, and help them with projects around the house. In the mean time we have paid off student loans, two unmustachian vehicles, paid cash for our wedding, and now have a nice downpayment fund we keep adding to as we begin house hunting (or debate moving out of state which is on the table).

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10859
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #829 on: May 28, 2019, 02:27:22 PM »
Co-worker was ticked off at the dealership this morning. He had made a deal to renew his lease on a new CR-V and they just texted him that the red one he wanted was not available. As I talked with him I got the background of this story. His currently leased car had a recall and the dealership convinced him to just renew his lease and get a new one since he could keep the same payments.

Me: Sorry man, dealerships are the worse I would say if they don't have the red one you should just cancel the whole deal. The recall is free anyways just get them to fix it and keep your current one, don't rush into a new lease just because of a recall.
Co-worker: No way, it's also due for maintenance of about $200. Well I guess I will just settle for the sliver one.
Me: Have you ever thought about not leasing and own your car and drive it until it stops running.
Co-worker:  I will never own a car I like the fact that I get a new car every two years by leasing and besides my payments are only $240 bi-weekly and they aren't going up, why would anyone stay with a older car.
Me: (After giving up on changing his mind on leasing) I am sure you will like the sliver one, congrats on the new car.

I dunno, 10-15 years of no car payment?

Freedomin5

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6462
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #830 on: May 29, 2019, 11:44:53 PM »
Overheard a guy telling his friends about his shoes. One friend asked him how much they cost. His response: “¥8000...I’m not really sure, I didn’t really pay attention when I was paying.”

That’s about $1300 USD. That’s more than a typical person’s monthly salary here.

Boll weevil

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 202
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #831 on: May 30, 2019, 08:39:17 AM »
Overheard a guy telling his friends about his shoes. One friend asked him how much they cost. His response: “¥8000...I’m not really sure, I didn’t really pay attention when I was paying.”

That’s about $1300 USD. That’s more than a typical person’s monthly salary here.

I'm assuming that's Chinese Yuan? The same symbol is used for Japanese Yen, which at today's exchange rates comes out to less than $75

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3672
  • Location: Germany
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #832 on: May 30, 2019, 08:55:18 AM »
Overheard a guy telling his friends about his shoes. One friend asked him how much they cost. His response: “¥8000...I’m not really sure, I didn’t really pay attention when I was paying.”

That’s about $1300 USD. That’s more than a typical person’s monthly salary here.

I'm assuming that's Chinese Yuan? The same symbol is used for Japanese Yen, which at today's exchange rates comes out to less than $75

I guess that's it, it means Yuan. I ran into the same trap ^^ and did a hah??? until I realized.

Freedomin5

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6462
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #833 on: May 30, 2019, 09:27:25 AM »
Overheard a guy telling his friends about his shoes. One friend asked him how much they cost. His response: “¥8000...I’m not really sure, I didn’t really pay attention when I was paying.”

That’s about $1300 USD. That’s more than a typical person’s monthly salary here.

I'm assuming that's Chinese Yuan? The same symbol is used for Japanese Yen, which at today's exchange rates comes out to less than $75

I guess that's it, it means Yuan. I ran into the same trap ^^ and did a hah??? until I realized.

Yes, yuan/kuai/RMB. That’s why I included the conversion to USD as well. Though $75 for a pair of sneakers is still quite a lot.

cloudsail

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 556
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #834 on: May 30, 2019, 11:53:05 AM »
Overheard a guy telling his friends about his shoes. One friend asked him how much they cost. His response: “¥8000...I’m not really sure, I didn’t really pay attention when I was paying.”

That’s about $1300 USD. That’s more than a typical person’s monthly salary here.

I'm assuming that's Chinese Yuan? The same symbol is used for Japanese Yen, which at today's exchange rates comes out to less than $75

I guess that's it, it means Yuan. I ran into the same trap ^^ and did a hah??? until I realized.

Yes, yuan/kuai/RMB. That’s why I included the conversion to USD as well. Though $75 for a pair of sneakers is still quite a lot.

The way that the Chinese middle class and younger generation spend on consumer goods is just insane. Sadly, they've really bought into that aspect of American culture with a vengeance. Living above your means and taking consumer loans is now considered normal :(

nouveauRiche

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
  • Location: HCOL - USA
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #835 on: June 01, 2019, 06:47:42 PM »
I am so far gone I don't even understand wanting a new car every two years. I actually like being familiar with my car!

+1 

I dread getting something with a !#$% touch screen and I don't want to worry about dents and scratches.  We buy our cars "pre-dented".

I kept my last two cars for 10+ years each (after purchasing used).

Also haven't had a car payment since 1997 and *that* was $115 / month.

nouveauRiche

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
  • Location: HCOL - USA
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #836 on: June 01, 2019, 08:38:54 PM »
On topic: 

I know someone who was let go from a job.  He told me that they closed his 401k and gave him a check.  I said, "Did you roll it into an IRA?"  Nope.  "I needed the money."  Facepalm.

six-car-habit

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #837 on: June 01, 2019, 09:41:40 PM »
On topic: 

I know someone who was let go from a job.  He told me that they closed his 401k and gave him a check.  I said, "Did you roll it into an IRA?"  Nope.  "I needed the money."  Facepalm.

April 15th 2020 - Big tax bill due - did you mention this to him ? .
   Co-workers relative cashed in a $100K+   / 401K balance, when he got frustrated with his job and quit. Had a grand 'ol time for a few months, Big truck, party everyday.  Got hired back at the same employer, he was a good worker.  They recently fired him [ was on "new hire" probabtion ]  - His $30K outstanding debt to the IRS was one of the reasons cited. [security clearance] . Big truck is long gone as well.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #838 on: June 01, 2019, 10:20:20 PM »
On topic: 

I know someone who was let go from a job.  He told me that they closed his 401k and gave him a check.  I said, "Did you roll it into an IRA?"  Nope.  "I needed the money."  Facepalm.

April 15th 2020 - Big tax bill due - did you mention this to him ? .
   Co-workers relative cashed in a $100K+   / 401K balance, when he got frustrated with his job and quit. Had a grand 'ol time for a few months, Big truck, party everyday.  Got hired back at the same employer, he was a good worker.  They recently fired him [ was on "new hire" probabtion ]  - His $30K outstanding debt to the IRS was one of the reasons cited. [security clearance] . Big truck is long gone as well.

Some people are just dumb as a stump.


nouveauRiche

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
  • Location: HCOL - USA
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #839 on: June 02, 2019, 10:39:03 AM »
On topic: 

I know someone who was let go from a job.  He told me that they closed his 401k and gave him a check.  I said, "Did you roll it into an IRA?"  Nope.  "I needed the money."  Facepalm.

April 15th 2020 - Big tax bill due - did you mention this to him ? .
   Co-workers relative cashed in a $100K+   / 401K balance, when he got frustrated with his job and quit. Had a grand 'ol time for a few months, Big truck, party everyday.  Got hired back at the same employer, he was a good worker.  They recently fired him [ was on "new hire" probation ]  - His $30K outstanding debt to the IRS was one of the reasons cited. [security clearance] . Big truck is long gone as well.

Yes, he knew about the tax bill.  This was a couple of years ago.  All the money has been spent.  Your coworker - Yikes!

spiro

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #840 on: June 03, 2019, 09:14:50 AM »
One of my coworkers doesn't like to make the half-mile trek from our designated parking lot to our building, so most mornings she parks on the street right outside so that she doesn't have to be bothered "by the cold". So she spend $7-10/day for parking each day while still paying the $37/month for her parking pass that she uses maybe twice a month when she actually parks in the regular lot. She also goes out to lunch every single day, but then of course complains that she is broke.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9918
  • Registered member
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #841 on: June 03, 2019, 12:59:16 PM »
One of my coworkers doesn't like to make the half-mile trek from our designated parking lot to our building, so most mornings she parks on the street right outside so that she doesn't have to be bothered "by the cold". So she spend $7-10/day for parking each day while still paying the $37/month for her parking pass that she uses maybe twice a month when she actually parks in the regular lot. She also goes out to lunch every single day, but then of course complains that she is broke.

Great opportunity to offer to drop her off at for just $4/day

Miss Piggy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1548
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #842 on: June 03, 2019, 01:40:41 PM »
One of my coworkers doesn't like to make the half-mile trek from our designated parking lot to our building, so most mornings she parks on the street right outside so that she doesn't have to be bothered "by the cold". So she spend $7-10/day for parking each day while still paying the $37/month for her parking pass that she uses maybe twice a month when she actually parks in the regular lot. She also goes out to lunch every single day, but then of course complains that she is broke.

Great opportunity to offer to drop her off at for just $4/day

Really expands on the whole notion of a side hustle!

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10859
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #843 on: June 04, 2019, 11:28:01 AM »
One of my coworkers doesn't like to make the half-mile trek from our designated parking lot to our building, so most mornings she parks on the street right outside so that she doesn't have to be bothered "by the cold". So she spend $7-10/day for parking each day while still paying the $37/month for her parking pass that she uses maybe twice a month when she actually parks in the regular lot. She also goes out to lunch every single day, but then of course complains that she is broke.

Great opportunity to offer to drop her off at for just $4/day
Genius

Sugaree

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1657
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #844 on: June 04, 2019, 11:41:26 AM »
Co-worker who is usually okay with these kinds of things was talking about his cell phone bill this morning.  He has lines for three phones, three tablets, and two Apple watches.  It's just him and his son on the bill.  I believe that his son probably helps pay part of the bill, but still.  They both just got new phones and had already used most of their data for the month on what they assume is firmware updates on said new phones.  Ouch.  I don't even want to think about what that bill runs every month.

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8930
  • Age: 2020
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #845 on: June 04, 2019, 11:58:58 AM »
How do two people have three phones and three tablets?

Sugaree

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1657
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #846 on: June 04, 2019, 12:23:50 PM »
I assume the third belonged to his wife that passed away ~ 2 years ago, but I didn't ask.

fattest_foot

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 856
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #847 on: June 04, 2019, 01:39:37 PM »
Co-worker who is usually okay with these kinds of things was talking about his cell phone bill this morning.  He has lines for three phones, three tablets, and two Apple watches.  It's just him and his son on the bill.  I believe that his son probably helps pay part of the bill, but still.  They both just got new phones and had already used most of their data for the month on what they assume is firmware updates on said new phones.  Ouch.  I don't even want to think about what that bill runs every month.

That was news to me a few months ago when I heard a coworker talking about a cell plan for a tablet. I figured you just used WiFi like a normal computer, but I guess that's too much trouble?

cloudsail

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 556
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #848 on: June 04, 2019, 01:57:42 PM »
Co-worker who is usually okay with these kinds of things was talking about his cell phone bill this morning.  He has lines for three phones, three tablets, and two Apple watches.  It's just him and his son on the bill.  I believe that his son probably helps pay part of the bill, but still.  They both just got new phones and had already used most of their data for the month on what they assume is firmware updates on said new phones.  Ouch.  I don't even want to think about what that bill runs every month.

That was news to me a few months ago when I heard a coworker talking about a cell plan for a tablet. I figured you just used WiFi like a normal computer, but I guess that's too much trouble?

I always thought it was the dumbest thing. When you're at home or work or school you can just use wifi. If you really need to use it somewhere with no wifi you can tether to your phone. Why do people think it makes sense to pay for a data plan for a tablet???

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5591
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #849 on: June 04, 2019, 02:28:25 PM »
Co-worker who is usually okay with these kinds of things was talking about his cell phone bill this morning.  He has lines for three phones, three tablets, and two Apple watches.  It's just him and his son on the bill.  I believe that his son probably helps pay part of the bill, but still.  They both just got new phones and had already used most of their data for the month on what they assume is firmware updates on said new phones.  Ouch.  I don't even want to think about what that bill runs every month.

That was news to me a few months ago when I heard a coworker talking about a cell plan for a tablet. I figured you just used WiFi like a normal computer, but I guess that's too much trouble?

I always thought it was the dumbest thing. When you're at home or work or school you can just use wifi. If you really need to use it somewhere with no wifi you can tether to your phone. Why do people think it makes sense to pay for a data plan for a tablet???
Most carriers do not allow tethering unless (surprise, surprise) you pay extra, even though you're only using data you've already paid for.