Author Topic: Overheard at Work 2  (Read 342768 times)

letsdoit

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #650 on: April 25, 2019, 10:09:19 AM »
Co-worker told me she met a financial advisor. He suggested she take a loan against her 401(K), and invest it in making hard money loans to real estate developers in a metro area about 100 miles west of us. I told her to run away.

Wow! That is horrifyingly bad advice!

WTF?  i always ask ppl if they act as a fiduciary

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #651 on: April 25, 2019, 02:33:55 PM »
Co-worker told me she met a financial advisor. He suggested she take a loan against her 401(K), and invest it in making hard money loans to real estate developers in a metro area about 100 miles west of us. I told her to run away.

Wow! That is horrifyingly bad advice!

WTF?  i always ask ppl if they act as a fiduciary

I would suggest that you get it in writing that they are acting on your behalf as a fiduciary.   If they won't do that, run.   If they don't know what you're talking about, run.

And, honestly, probably best to just run anyway.   Plenty of good advice available elsewhere.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #652 on: April 25, 2019, 05:52:12 PM »
Co-worker told me she met a financial advisor. He suggested she take a loan against her 401(K), and invest it in making hard money loans to real estate developers in a metro area about 100 miles west of us. I told her to run away.

Wow! That is horrifyingly bad advice!

WTF?  i always ask ppl if they act as a fiduciary

I would suggest that you get it in writing that they are acting on your behalf as a fiduciary.   If they won't do that, run.   If they don't know what you're talking about, run.

And, honestly, probably best to just run anyway.   Plenty of good advice available elsewhere.

If you want some non fiduciary advice, start here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/top-is-in/

Montecarlo

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #653 on: April 25, 2019, 06:17:01 PM »
I would suggest that you get it in writing that they are acting on your behalf as a fiduciary.   If they won't do that, run.   If they don't know what you're talking about, run.

And, honestly, probably best to just run anyway.   Plenty of good advice available elsewhere.

I talked with a financial adviser that charged 2% fees who said they were a fiduciary.  Not saying they aren't, it wasn't like they steered people into high commission funds or anything.  The products they had were reasonable.  But just the fact of charging 2% seems unfiduciary like.

ysette9

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #654 on: April 25, 2019, 08:02:27 PM »
“Unfiduciary like” is mild.
“Highway robbery” is more accurate.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #655 on: April 25, 2019, 10:43:34 PM »
I would suggest that you get it in writing that they are acting on your behalf as a fiduciary.   If they won't do that, run.   If they don't know what you're talking about, run.

And, honestly, probably best to just run anyway.   Plenty of good advice available elsewhere.

I talked with a financial adviser that charged 2% fees who said they were a fiduciary.  Not saying they aren't, it wasn't like they steered people into high commission funds or anything.  The products they had were reasonable.  But just the fact of charging 2% seems unfiduciary like.

If these are upfront management fees and not hidden fund fees, there’s nothing unfiduciarylike about it. Advisors need to make money, so better full disclosure how you make it instead of simply steering people towards shady products.  Anyone who doesn’t feel they are worth the fee can easily avoid signing up

dude

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #656 on: April 26, 2019, 12:17:51 PM »
I would suggest that you get it in writing that they are acting on your behalf as a fiduciary.   If they won't do that, run.   If they don't know what you're talking about, run.

And, honestly, probably best to just run anyway.   Plenty of good advice available elsewhere.

I talked with a financial adviser that charged 2% fees who said they were a fiduciary.  Not saying they aren't, it wasn't like they steered people into high commission funds or anything.  The products they had were reasonable.  But just the fact of charging 2% seems unfiduciary like.

If these are upfront management fees and not hidden fund fees, there’s nothing unfiduciarylike about it. Advisors need to make money, so better full disclosure how you make it instead of simply steering people towards shady products.  Anyone who doesn’t feel they are worth the fee can easily avoid signing up

I don't know about that -- a 2% drag on one's portfolio is very hard to overcome, and no advisor, fiduciary or not, is going to beat the market by 2% with any consistency, if at all. I get your point, but 2% is a red flag. Better to find a fee-only fiduciary that charges set rates for various services.

tralfamadorian

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #657 on: April 26, 2019, 12:36:04 PM »
Co-worker told me she met a financial advisor. He suggested she take a loan against her 401(K), and invest it in making hard money loans to real estate developers in a metro area about 100 miles west of us. I told her to run away.

Wow! That is horrifyingly bad advice!

+1mil

Holy shit! I think this is the worst financial advise I've ever heard from a professional.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #658 on: April 26, 2019, 12:59:55 PM »
I would suggest that you get it in writing that they are acting on your behalf as a fiduciary.   If they won't do that, run.   If they don't know what you're talking about, run.

And, honestly, probably best to just run anyway.   Plenty of good advice available elsewhere.

I talked with a financial adviser that charged 2% fees who said they were a fiduciary.  Not saying they aren't, it wasn't like they steered people into high commission funds or anything.  The products they had were reasonable.  But just the fact of charging 2% seems unfiduciary like.

If these are upfront management fees and not hidden fund fees, there’s nothing unfiduciarylike about it. Advisors need to make money, so better full disclosure how you make it instead of simply steering people towards shady products.  Anyone who doesn’t feel they are worth the fee can easily avoid signing up

I don't know about that -- a 2% drag on one's portfolio is very hard to overcome, and no advisor, fiduciary or not, is going to beat the market by 2% with any consistency, if at all. I get your point, but 2% is a red flag. Better to find a fee-only fiduciary that charges set rates for various services.

It’s not an offer I would take up, but being a fiduciary is about loyalty, not raw profits.  There is a class of clients who would probably pay 2% for the right level of service (something beyond VTSAX, possibly with access to private equity).  Consider that you might pay 10% of rents to someone to manage your real estate holdings.  At the 2% rule that works out to be around 2% of your holdings.

For 2% I’d expect more “wealth management” than “financial advice”
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 01:22:39 PM by dragoncar »

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #659 on: April 26, 2019, 02:13:35 PM »
For 2% I’d expect more “wealth management” than “financial advice”

For 2% I'd expect the Philosopher's Stone and Fountain of Youth.

ysette9

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #660 on: April 26, 2019, 03:54:58 PM »
Finally got one to share.

I gave my boss a ride home from a group lunch this afternoon. He recently purchased a new construction townhome close to work. Some snooping on Zillow indicates it likely is in the $1.4-1.8M range. Expensive, but fairly average for our area. On the car ride over he talked about his second house in China (he came over for work a couple of years ago). His first house in China is apparently rented and he didn't mention what it is worth, but the second house, which sits empty, is worth 15M RMB. At current exchange rates that is about $2.3M US, though the figure he used in our conversation was $3M. Regardless, the point is the same. He has a multi-million dollar asset that sits unoccupied most of the time except for when his mother-in-law wants to visit the city where it is located on occasion.

I half-jokingly suggested he could sell the second house and retire tomorrow. He said he would be bored.

The up side is that I shared this with a coworker who expressed the opinion that he isn't going to work a day more than he has to, and that our boss is a case of failure of imagination.

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #661 on: April 29, 2019, 07:10:35 AM »
Finally got one to share.

I gave my boss a ride home from a group lunch this afternoon. He recently purchased a new construction townhome close to work. Some snooping on Zillow indicates it likely is in the $1.4-1.8M range. Expensive, but fairly average for our area. On the car ride over he talked about his second house in China (he came over for work a couple of years ago). His first house in China is apparently rented and he didn't mention what it is worth, but the second house, which sits empty, is worth 15M RMB. At current exchange rates that is about $2.3M US, though the figure he used in our conversation was $3M. Regardless, the point is the same. He has a multi-million dollar asset that sits unoccupied most of the time except for when his mother-in-law wants to visit the city where it is located on occasion.

I half-jokingly suggested he could sell the second house and retire tomorrow. He said he would be bored.

The up side is that I shared this with a coworker who expressed the opinion that he isn't going to work a day more than he has to, and that our boss is a case of failure of imagination.

If he's comparing to his peers with a very high $$$ reference point, he's "poor". So he needs to exist in the rat race.

letsdoit

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #662 on: April 29, 2019, 08:34:59 AM »
re: the 2% fiduciary.  it may be worth it for a billionaire who is trying to do aggressive real estate moves: buying islands or mines or what not. 
 

Freedomin5

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #663 on: April 29, 2019, 04:40:12 PM »
Finally got one to share.

I gave my boss a ride home from a group lunch this afternoon. He recently purchased a new construction townhome close to work. Some snooping on Zillow indicates it likely is in the $1.4-1.8M range. Expensive, but fairly average for our area. On the car ride over he talked about his second house in China (he came over for work a couple of years ago). His first house in China is apparently rented and he didn't mention what it is worth, but the second house, which sits empty, is worth 15M RMB. At current exchange rates that is about $2.3M US, though the figure he used in our conversation was $3M. Regardless, the point is the same. He has a multi-million dollar asset that sits unoccupied most of the time except for when his mother-in-law wants to visit the city where it is located on occasion.

I half-jokingly suggested he could sell the second house and retire tomorrow. He said he would be bored.

The up side is that I shared this with a coworker who expressed the opinion that he isn't going to work a day more than he has to, and that our boss is a case of failure of imagination.

If he's comparing to his peers with a very high $$$ reference point, he's "poor". So he needs to exist in the rat race.

My first thought was: How is he able to own two homes in China? I thought that was  illegal, but I think it’s only illegal in some cities. I mean, the prez of China did say that homes were for living in, not for speculation. My second thought was: It’s actually wise for him not to rent out his house, not unless he wants it completely destroyed by renters. The amount of money floating around in China in some social circles is ridiculous.

Tracyl-5

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #664 on: April 29, 2019, 07:42:24 PM »
We recently went through a contract change which resulted in several people losing their jobs.  I was lucky enough to find a new job that I started after just a two-week hiatus.  This past weekend I got together with a former co-worker and were discussing a mutual friend who still hasn't found a job after almost three months now.  Then my co-worker said, "but OMG, she has $250K in her retirement accounts, that's amazing!"  Never mind our friend is 60 and we live in a HCOL area, so that's not THAT great at all...  I tried to gently remind her that that money is for retirement though, she shouldn't spend it now, but she was too flabergasted that anyone had that much money put away to acknowledge that...  I just stopped trying and nodded along...  She's 68 and is planning to work until at least 70 so she can get her max social security.  SMH...

ysette9

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #665 on: April 29, 2019, 09:32:27 PM »
Finally got one to share.

I gave my boss a ride home from a group lunch this afternoon. He recently purchased a new construction townhome close to work. Some snooping on Zillow indicates it likely is in the $1.4-1.8M range. Expensive, but fairly average for our area. On the car ride over he talked about his second house in China (he came over for work a couple of years ago). His first house in China is apparently rented and he didn't mention what it is worth, but the second house, which sits empty, is worth 15M RMB. At current exchange rates that is about $2.3M US, though the figure he used in our conversation was $3M. Regardless, the point is the same. He has a multi-million dollar asset that sits unoccupied most of the time except for when his mother-in-law wants to visit the city where it is located on occasion.

I half-jokingly suggested he could sell the second house and retire tomorrow. He said he would be bored.

The up side is that I shared this with a coworker who expressed the opinion that he isn't going to work a day more than he has to, and that our boss is a case of failure of imagination.

If he's comparing to his peers with a very high $$$ reference point, he's "poor". So he needs to exist in the rat race.

My first thought was: How is he able to own two homes in China? I thought that was  illegal, but I think it’s only illegal in some cities. I mean, the prez of China did say that homes were for living in, not for speculation. My second thought was: It’s actually wise for him not to rent out his house, not unless he wants it completely destroyed by renters. The amount of money floating around in China in some social circles is ridiculous.
I have no idea how that works. You could be right but then if it were illegal, would he be talking about it do openly?

cloudsail

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #666 on: April 30, 2019, 04:07:02 AM »
The limit on buying second homes in China is pretty recent, not in all cities, and there are ways to get around it. Considering the value of the house, it was probably purchased many years ago.

Freedomin5

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #667 on: May 01, 2019, 08:08:39 PM »
The limit on buying second homes in China is pretty recent, not in all cities, and there are ways to get around it. Considering the value of the house, it was probably purchased many years ago.

That could be. Or people just don't think they will get caught. My landlord owns at least four apartments in a city where it is illegal to own more than one; most of the ownership details fall in the "gray zone". Landlord frequently posts pictures and talks about all of his available units on WeChat.

The unit I live in is registered to someone else, so when I go to register at the police station, landlord told me to show someone else's ID card as the owner (they have paperwork showing this other random guy is the owner), but I pay rent to the landlord. We rented this place from an authorized, large, housing rental company, so I know things are all in the open on our end. I'm not sure (and don't want to know and probably wouldn't even understand it if it was explained to me) how things work on their end.

dogboyslim

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #668 on: May 02, 2019, 12:45:23 PM »
I would suggest that you get it in writing that they are acting on your behalf as a fiduciary.   If they won't do that, run.   If they don't know what you're talking about, run.

And, honestly, probably best to just run anyway.   Plenty of good advice available elsewhere.

I talked with a financial adviser that charged 2% fees who said they were a fiduciary.  Not saying they aren't, it wasn't like they steered people into high commission funds or anything.  The products they had were reasonable.  But just the fact of charging 2% seems unfiduciary like.

If these are upfront management fees and not hidden fund fees, there’s nothing unfiduciarylike about it. Advisors need to make money, so better full disclosure how you make it instead of simply steering people towards shady products.  Anyone who doesn’t feel they are worth the fee can easily avoid signing up

I don't know about that -- a 2% drag on one's portfolio is very hard to overcome, and no advisor, fiduciary or not, is going to beat the market by 2% with any consistency, if at all. I get your point, but 2% is a red flag. Better to find a fee-only fiduciary that charges set rates for various services.

It’s not an offer I would take up, but being a fiduciary is about loyalty, not raw profits.  There is a class of clients who would probably pay 2% for the right level of service (something beyond VTSAX, possibly with access to private equity).  Consider that you might pay 10% of rents to someone to manage your real estate holdings.  At the 2% rule that works out to be around 2% of your holdings.

For 2% I’d expect more “wealth management” than “financial advice”

My mother is in this boat.  The adviser has a 1% fee, suggested sound AA and target fund distribution, appropriately recommends spending strategies etc.  Still, the funds recommended all have expense ratios around 0.9% to 1.2%.  I replicated her portfolio with Vanguard funds at 0.11% expense and no management fee.  My mom is still reluctant to move the money because her adviser is a good guy.  I asked her if he was worth $4,000 a year and she seemed shocked that that was the amount of money involved.  I'm still trying to get her to fire him, but she's dragging her feet.

Freedomin5

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #669 on: May 04, 2019, 06:33:56 AM »
Young coworker was talking about getting a new car.

CW: I don’t want anything too fancy. I don’t want to stand out.
Me: That makes sense.
CW: Yeah, definitely don’t want to show off, so probably will not get...
Me: Like, a BMW or a Benz?
CW: No, what are you talking about? Those are normal cars. I was thinking I definitely won’t get a Porsche or a Lamborghini.
Me: Oh.

Hirondelle

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #670 on: May 05, 2019, 03:17:31 AM »
Not sure to what extent this one fits better in the MPP or this thread.

Background: My coworkers know I'm a frugal person and save a lot of money (they don't know how much). We are all young, in similar life stages (no kids yet) and have fairly low salaries.

CW: "Why do you save so much money?"
Me: "Well, after all my needs are met there's just money left and I see no point in spending it now. I rather save it up for later flexibility." (didn't want to go into depth at this point, wasn't a good moment for it)
CW: "But why don't you just spend some extra?"
Me: "Well, I already spend money on all the things I want!"
CW: "You could buy yourself some nice books!"
Me: "I occasionally do buy a book.."
CW: "Then how about shoes?!"
Me: "..."

Really, why do you need to come up with spending ideas if I explicitly state all my needs are met? I don't understand how she framed my lack of spending as a 'problem' to be solved in her head.


Linea_Norway

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #671 on: May 05, 2019, 04:52:45 AM »
Not sure to what extent this one fits better in the MPP or this thread.

Background: My coworkers know I'm a frugal person and save a lot of money (they don't know how much). We are all young, in similar life stages (no kids yet) and have fairly low salaries.

CW: "Why do you save so much money?"
Me: "Well, after all my needs are met there's just money left and I see no point in spending it now. I rather save it up for later flexibility." (didn't want to go into depth at this point, wasn't a good moment for it)
CW: "But why don't you just spend some extra?"
Me: "Well, I already spend money on all the things I want!"
CW: "You could buy yourself some nice books!"
Me: "I occasionally do buy a book.."
CW: "Then how about shoes?!"
Me: "..."

Really, why do you need to come up with spending ideas if I explicitly state all my needs are met? I don't understand how she framed my lack of spending as a 'problem' to be solved in her head.

That sounds like a person who really cannot have money left in her account. It is obviously burning there to be spent. Even if it is not her own money, but yours, she still feels the urge to start spending it. That is a person who will never be able to save much. Unless she would transfer an amount to her savings account the day after receiving salary.

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #672 on: May 05, 2019, 05:07:45 AM »
I don't understand how she framed my lack of spending as a 'problem' to be solved in her head.
Than you probably haven't watched any ad or economics report in the last half century.

Yeah, I get what you are meaning, I have that same confusion quite often. For example when people talk about cars. My reaction is often: Oh, you can do that? Interesting. Why should you do that? And who the hell would pay such much money for it?

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #673 on: May 05, 2019, 08:01:33 AM »
Not sure to what extent this one fits better in the MPP or this thread.

Background: My coworkers know I'm a frugal person and save a lot of money (they don't know how much). We are all young, in similar life stages (no kids yet) and have fairly low salaries.

CW: "Why do you save so much money?"
Me: "Well, after all my needs are met there's just money left and I see no point in spending it now. I rather save it up for later flexibility." (didn't want to go into depth at this point, wasn't a good moment for it)
CW: "But why don't you just spend some extra?"
Me: "Well, I already spend money on all the things I want!"
CW: "You could buy yourself some nice books!"
Me: "I occasionally do buy a book.."
CW: "Then how about shoes?!"
Me: "..."

Really, why do you need to come up with spending ideas if I explicitly state all my needs are met? I don't understand how she framed my lack of spending as a 'problem' to be solved in her head.

Why don’t you just buy some VTSAX?

Parizade

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #674 on: May 05, 2019, 09:28:46 AM »
Not sure to what extent this one fits better in the MPP or this thread.

Background: My coworkers know I'm a frugal person and save a lot of money (they don't know how much). We are all young, in similar life stages (no kids yet) and have fairly low salaries.

CW: "Why do you save so much money?"
Me: "Well, after all my needs are met there's just money left and I see no point in spending it now. I rather save it up for later flexibility." (didn't want to go into depth at this point, wasn't a good moment for it)
CW: "But why don't you just spend some extra?"
Me: "Well, I already spend money on all the things I want!"
CW: "You could buy yourself some nice books!"
Me: "I occasionally do buy a book.."
CW: "Then how about shoes?!"
Me: "..."

Really, why do you need to come up with spending ideas if I explicitly state all my needs are met? I don't understand how she framed my lack of spending as a 'problem' to be solved in her head.

This would have been a perfect opportunity to practice the "Boring Baroque Response" verbal self-defense strategy as described by Suzette Elgin:

"You know, I think it's because of something that happened to me when I was just a little kid. We were living in Detroit at the time, and... No, wait a minute! It couldn't have been Detroit, it must have been when we were living in Indianapolis, because that was the summer my Aunt Grace came to visit us and brought her dog. You know those funny little dogs with the big ears that stick out? Well, this dog...." [And so on, for as long as it takes.]"

A response like this delivers the following message: "I notice that you're here to pick a fight. Do that if you like, but it's not going to be much fun for you, because I won't play that game." Listening to a BBR is excruciatingly boring. The most usual result is that by the time you've gotten to the part about your aunt's dog the attacker is already saying, "Oh, never MIND!" and leaving in a hurry -- while making a mental note that you're no fun as a victim and shouldn't be chosen for that role in future.


https://people.howstuffworks.com/vsd2.htm

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #675 on: May 05, 2019, 10:14:06 AM »
That only works if the "attacker" is A) really attacking and B) understands your Gebrabbel (as we Germans say) as a defence.

Both would not be true for e.g. me.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #676 on: May 05, 2019, 10:15:37 AM »
Not sure to what extent this one fits better in the MPP or this thread.

Background: My coworkers know I'm a frugal person and save a lot of money (they don't know how much). We are all young, in similar life stages (no kids yet) and have fairly low salaries.

CW: "Why do you save so much money?"
Me: "Well, after all my needs are met there's just money left and I see no point in spending it now. I rather save it up for later flexibility." (didn't want to go into depth at this point, wasn't a good moment for it)
CW: "But why don't you just spend some extra?"
Me: "Well, I already spend money on all the things I want!"
CW: "You could buy yourself some nice books!"
Me: "I occasionally do buy a book.."
CW: "Then how about shoes?!"
Me: "..."

Really, why do you need to come up with spending ideas if I explicitly state all my needs are met? I don't understand how she framed my lack of spending as a 'problem' to be solved in her head.

This would have been a perfect opportunity to practice the "Boring Baroque Response" verbal self-defense strategy as described by Suzette Elgin:

"You know, I think it's because of something that happened to me when I was just a little kid. We were living in Detroit at the time, and... No, wait a minute! It couldn't have been Detroit, it must have been when we were living in Indianapolis, because that was the summer my Aunt Grace came to visit us and brought her dog. You know those funny little dogs with the big ears that stick out? Well, this dog...." [And so on, for as long as it takes.]"

A response like this delivers the following message: "I notice that you're here to pick a fight. Do that if you like, but it's not going to be much fun for you, because I won't play that game." Listening to a BBR is excruciatingly boring. The most usual result is that by the time you've gotten to the part about your aunt's dog the attacker is already saying, "Oh, never MIND!" and leaving in a hurry -- while making a mental note that you're no fun as a victim and shouldn't be chosen for that role in future.


https://people.howstuffworks.com/vsd2.htm

OMG!!!   


Parizade

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #677 on: May 05, 2019, 11:23:14 AM »
That only works if the "attacker" is A) really attacking and B) understands your Gebrabbel (as we Germans say) as a defence.

Both would not be true for e.g. me.

I don't know if "CW" understands that she is attacking, but she most certainly is. She has asked a question without really wanting an answer. She is not actually interested in why Hirondelle is frugal, so answering her questions just feeds into her goal and goads her on to ask more. Her questions are intended to shame him for not spending his money on the same foolish things she considers essential, the more she asks her shaming questions the more defensive she hopes her victim will become.

She also doesn't need to understand that Hirondelle's "gerbrabbel" (LOVE that word, thank you for sharing) is a defensive strategy. It's actually better is she doesn't. As long as she is not getting the intended self-affirming reaction she hopes for she will be less likely to try the same tactic again simply because there is no reward.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 11:30:22 AM by Parizade »

Parizade

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #678 on: May 05, 2019, 11:26:42 AM »
OMG!!!

That's how I felt after reading her book The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense. So much liberating knowledge!

RetiredAt63

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #679 on: May 05, 2019, 11:29:38 AM »
OMG!!!

That's how I felt after reading her book The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense. So much liberating knowledge!

So much this.

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #680 on: May 05, 2019, 04:11:01 PM »
I work with a woman who makes $65000 a year. We don't get into a lot of personally but in January she talked about how she owed $900 to the IRS. Fast forward to April 15th and she had to borrow the $900 from the bank to pay her taxes off. Every day we hear about how broke she is because of the loan but her dogs go to doggie day care once a week to the tune of $80 bucks. The dogs don't go for any other reason but she thinks they like it. So, if she gave it up between February and April she would have had almost enough to pay her debt.

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #681 on: May 05, 2019, 07:43:35 PM »
Associate drives aging heavy duty pickup. Complains about the cost of a newer truck. Really close to wearing this one out. Eats out every day at lunch, sometimes breakfast and dinner. Every curve ball that Murphy throws at them requires credit.

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #682 on: May 06, 2019, 05:03:22 AM »
That only works if the "attacker" is A) really attacking and B) understands your Gebrabbel (as we Germans say) as a defence.

Both would not be true for e.g. me.

Is Gebrabbel also German?! We use it too in Dutch! Regarding the response; I guess it's a good strategy if it's a person you actively dislike. I do like this person otherwise and we hang out outside of work once in a while sooooo I guess I'll just say I save it up for travel next time. That's somewhat true as I do many trips, except that my 55%+ savings rate is after budgeted travel expenses.

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #683 on: May 06, 2019, 11:27:10 AM »
Not sure to what extent this one fits better in the MPP or this thread.

Background: My coworkers know I'm a frugal person and save a lot of money (they don't know how much). We are all young, in similar life stages (no kids yet) and have fairly low salaries.

CW: "Why do you save so much money?"
Me: "Well, after all my needs are met there's just money left and I see no point in spending it now. I rather save it up for later flexibility." (didn't want to go into depth at this point, wasn't a good moment for it)
CW: "But why don't you just spend some extra?"
Me: "Well, I already spend money on all the things I want!"
CW: "You could buy yourself some nice books!"
Me: "I occasionally do buy a book.."
CW: "Then how about shoes?!"
Me: "..."

Really, why do you need to come up with spending ideas if I explicitly state all my needs are met? I don't understand how she framed my lack of spending as a 'problem' to be solved in her head.

This would have been a perfect opportunity to practice the "Boring Baroque Response" verbal self-defense strategy as described by Suzette Elgin:

"You know, I think it's because of something that happened to me when I was just a little kid. We were living in Detroit at the time, and... No, wait a minute! It couldn't have been Detroit, it must have been when we were living in Indianapolis, because that was the summer my Aunt Grace came to visit us and brought her dog. You know those funny little dogs with the big ears that stick out? Well, this dog...." [And so on, for as long as it takes.]"

A response like this delivers the following message: "I notice that you're here to pick a fight. Do that if you like, but it's not going to be much fun for you, because I won't play that game." Listening to a BBR is excruciatingly boring. The most usual result is that by the time you've gotten to the part about your aunt's dog the attacker is already saying, "Oh, never MIND!" and leaving in a hurry -- while making a mental note that you're no fun as a victim and shouldn't be chosen for that role in future.


https://people.howstuffworks.com/vsd2.htm

This! I'm so glad you mentioned this! I've never heard that term before, but this is precisely how my boss talks. Not as a "I'm going to intentionally bore you so you leave my office" conversation trick, but as a personality trait. Every single comment is preceded by 5 minutes of rambling about tangentially, but completely unnecessary, topics. It drives me insane. And now I have a term for it. Thank you!

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #684 on: May 07, 2019, 06:00:33 AM »
I need that book! Used or from the library of course ;-)

artemidorus

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #685 on: May 08, 2019, 03:15:13 PM »
I've mentioned this co-worker before in the old thread (he once estimated he and his wife spend $25K a year at Whole Foods.) I compile many stories from him so I can dole them out slowly. While not his most egregious financial error, here's a series of conversations we've had.

November 2017:

    Me: "You and your wife up to anything this weekend?"
    CW: "We just got a new TV on sale for Black Friday! We're just going to watch that all weekend. Do you have a smart TV?"
    Me: "No, but we bought a Chromecast for $35 to sync all of our apps to our TV. So we don't have it built in, but I generally have all the functionality."
    CW: "Yeah, we had a Chromecast with our old TV, but the it was blinking out every once in a while so we needed a new one. Plus, it only had 2 HDMI ports, I always had to swap the Chromecast and the PS3 when I wanted to use them."
    Me: "I guess that would be annoying."
    CW: "Well we ended up getting a great deal. It was only $1,800, the last time we bought a TV on Black Friday it was $2,500."
    Me: (silent)
    CW: "We wanted to make sure it was a 4K TV, but we didn't even realize until we opened it up at home that it was a 3D TV too. We just found these glasses in in the box!"
    Me: (silent)
    CW: "I don't really know what we'll watch in 4K 3D, I think the only thing that really will hold up is 'Avatar.'"

So instead of returning the item they mistakenly purchased and getting a cheaper TV, they'll keep it to watch 1 below average James Cameron movie.

December 2017:

A second coworker and I are discussing tax issues, the typical "I want a big refund" conversation ensues, and I say how I would have rather had that money in each of my paychecks throughout the year rather than all at once in tax season. Original TV-related coworker overhears and chimes in.

    CW: "Yeah, but you would have just spent the money if you'd had it this whole time. You would have just bought a bigger TV!"

No. No I would not.

February 2018:

    CW: "I've got to go to Building X to pick up next month's parking pass. Might be my last one."
    Me: "Oh, is your contract not getting renewed?"
    CW: "They're not sure if there will be enough money for it. I'm not really sure what we'll do, my wife doesn't really bring in any income."

    (He's been on a contract for maybe 8 months at this point. He always knew there was no guarantee of further employment, although short extensions did come.)

    CW: "But I still have to go get that last parking pass. It's just so expensive to park around here. Even after the employee discount, the parking pass still costs $300 for the month."
    Me: "That much? Wow, that's pretty expensive."
    CW: "If I could walk to work like you do, I'd be rich! I'd have an extra $300 a month and I'd be able to buy a new TV set. I'd get an 8K TV when they come out!"

In the same conversation where we're saying he might not have any income to his household next month, he says how he wouldn't bank his hypothetical commuting savings, he would buy yet another TV.

November 2018:

Months have gone by and he actually now has a permanent position, which is great news for him. Black Friday is coming up yet again, which is bad news for his bank account.

I'll give you one guess what he's telling me he's going to buy.

    CW: "We're going to go to Target right at midnight to get a new TV. The one in our workout room doesn't have the functionality we need."
    Me: "What kind of functionality?"
    CW: "Well there's only one HDMI port, which has our Chromecast in it. We need another port to connect the AppleTV because the Chromecast doesn't work right with Pandora."
    Me: "Really? My Chromecast works with Pandora. Maybe it's something wrong with the account?"
    CW: "No, my wife doesn't like to hear the ads while she's working out. We have an Ad-Blocker installed that stops the ads from playing, but the Chromecast doesn't recognize it, so we need the TV to be able to work with both the Chromecast and the AppleTV. So we're just going to get a TV that has more HDMI ports."


So they're back to buy yet another new TV, all because the wife doesn't want to listen to ads. Or pay for the ad-free version of Pandora. Or for a ~$15 HDMI splitter. Or to just stop using the Chromecast and only use the AppleTV in the one port that exists.

Or just use HEADPHONES or a SPEAKER like every other person alive, instead of insisting your music comes through a TV.

Needless to say, I'm pretty sure I'm retiring before this guy, even though I'm almost 30 years younger.

horsepoor

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #686 on: May 08, 2019, 09:06:10 PM »
It makes me sad that he can't think of something more interesting to spend money on than televisions, FFS.


Cassie

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #687 on: May 08, 2019, 09:14:10 PM »
That’s bizarre. Our TVs cost 500 and are not smart. We keep them until they die. We have 2. 

cloudsail

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #688 on: May 08, 2019, 09:27:41 PM »
Omg, all that TV buying was really painful to read. What does he do with the old ones? I cringe to think of the electronic waste and the impact on the environment.

We have two TVs and one of them was free.

OtherJen

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #689 on: May 08, 2019, 10:44:19 PM »
Yikes. We have one TV that we bought 12 years ago as an open-box Best Buy deal. It isn’t “smart” but it does everything we want it to do. I don’t understand why we would ever need to replace it before some component fails.

It makes me sad that he can't think of something more interesting to spend money on than televisions, FFS.

Right?! His life must be very narrow and sheltered, or he completely lacks imagination.

Sugaree

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #690 on: May 09, 2019, 05:26:01 AM »
That makes my head hurt.  We've been considering getting a new TV, but I just can't bring myself to do it yet.  We have a 10+ year old model that I paid way too much money for (it's a facepunch-worthy story that involves my then 40 year-old ex husband throwing a temper tantrum) and a $128 after-xmas special that I got maybe 6 years ago.  The color has slowly started to go on the older TV and all three HDMI ports have gone out on the newer one.  Right now we're making do with what we've got (HDMI-to-RCA adapters).  I won't say that I haven't held off buying another firestick until we see whether or not the next TV is smart or not.

jinga nation

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #691 on: May 09, 2019, 06:30:35 AM »
I've realized how much people are addicted to TV.

When my YMCA remodeled, they got rid of all wall-mounted TVs.

In the new weight room/crossfit area they had none. The best thing ever. No dawdling around. Put on your earbuds/headphones, breathe, push, lift, jump, done. Also, they got the basic cable TV channels, about 35, instead of the fuckillion useless ones previously that you could view on the cardio machines' built in LCD screens.

They also got rid of the TV option on some of the cardio machines, just the dumb screen to display metrics and workout options. There's free wifi to stream on your smartphone/tablet.

They recently installed 2 small TVs in the corners for weather situational awareness. No news. Otherwise it's a local/FL sports channel.

Recently I saw 2 guys, new to the Y, complaining at the front desk why no ESPN or pro-sports channels were being shown. As a result, it's now Weather Channel all day on those two 32-inch TVs, mounted 10 feet high.

The Y branch manager was working out next to me, I've known her ~10 years. She said the membership drive was better this year, more exercise committed folks. However, the quitters' main complaint was that the Y didn't have good TV options, and <insert expensive national gym chain> was better. The complainypants preferred to watch traditional TV on low-quality LCD screens on cardio machines instead of better quality streaming on tablets.

When my 2007 Vizio 37 inch TV was dying, in late 2017 I bought a 55 inch TCL 4k TV for under $700 that's a highly rated budget buy. I barely watch TV. My family watches cumulative about 10 hours a week, most of it is PBS/Create. And wife and I feel that we watch too much. Old TV given to yard man who said his relative likes to fix things.

Have an ex-coworker who upgraded his TV every December at Best Buy; claimed he was getting a great deal on some upgrade program. Imagine another 19 people laughing and shaking heads when he would say this in a weekly meeting. This was for almost 6 years I heard this. Sometimes he'd upgrade in summer and December. He was so proud of it. If only he'd done this at Circuit City, he'd have kept them from going under. :-p
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 06:37:16 AM by jinga nation »

Davnasty

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #692 on: May 09, 2019, 07:01:26 AM »

    CW: "We wanted to make sure it was a 4K TV, but we didn't even realize until we opened it up at home that it was a 3D TV too. We just found these glasses in in the box!"
    Me: (silent)
    CW: "I don't really know what we'll watch in 4K 3D, I think the only thing that really will hold up is 'Avatar.'"

Holy crap, how do you spend $1800 on anything without researching every aspect of it. I've spent hours reading up on product specs and reviews for purchases in the $20 range.

artemidorus

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #693 on: May 09, 2019, 07:14:06 AM »
It makes me sad that he can't think of something more interesting to spend money on than televisions, FFS.

If it makes you less sad, despite that story, I don't even get the impression he watches that much TV. He has lots of interesting hobbies that he talks about. I think this is the only way he knows how to keep up with the Jones', he practically trips over himself to compare TV's with everyone.

Because he spends his money on hobbies most people don't understand, he can never string enough together to get the bigger house (that he always talks about and doesn't need) or the Tesla (that he also always talks about and definitely doesn't need.)

But dammit, he'll make sure we all know he has the newest cutting edge 3D4KHDQVCLMNOP TV on the block!

redhead84

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #694 on: May 09, 2019, 07:27:29 AM »
My husband’s company recently determined that one of his co-workers in the accounting department “borrowed” $60K from the company without permission. CW insisted the $60K was a loan that he would pay back and was legitimately shocked when the company fired him.
 
My husband was in charge of the fraud investigation and cleanup of CW’s outstanding work. He found e-mail correspondence with the IRS in which the CW was trying to negotiate a repayment plan for a $45K IRS tax delinquency. He also found a spreadsheet where the CW listed all of his outstanding personal credit card totaling $100K+. He also had a list of monthly repayments that included a mortgage, two cars, a boat, etc.

After the termination, the CW took a $250K withdrawal from his 401K (almost the entire balance). This CW is in his early 60’s and was making over $100K/year. My husband is not aware of any health or family issues that would have caused the debt to spiral.

The owners of the company forgave the $60K “loan” and did not press charges, but this CW destroyed his professional reputation and ability to earn a living which he desperately needs (based on his debt load). 

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #695 on: May 09, 2019, 08:10:59 AM »
I never even had a TV until I moved in with my s/o. I would occasionally watch DVD's or documentaries on youtube. Thanks to him we now have a small TV in the living room, but no cable, so it's still only used for Netflix, youtube and football games every now and then (through a chromecast and an app that a friend generously offered us his login for ).

We take a lunch walk with a group of coworkers every day and at least half of the time, someone will ask me if I watched X or Y on TV. Then without even noticing me saying 'no, I don't have TV' they will start ranting about how there are so many bad shows at channel A or B or C. I know, that's why I don't watch it! I never liked TV even when I was a kid growing up so I never bothered to get TV when I moved out.


better late

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #696 on: May 09, 2019, 08:17:51 AM »
My husband’s company recently determined that one of his co-workers in the accounting department “borrowed” $60K from the company without permission. CW insisted the $60K was a loan that he would pay back and was legitimately shocked when the company fired him.
 
My husband was in charge of the fraud investigation and cleanup of CW’s outstanding work. He found e-mail correspondence with the IRS in which the CW was trying to negotiate a repayment plan for a $45K IRS tax delinquency. He also found a spreadsheet where the CW listed all of his outstanding personal credit card totaling $100K+. He also had a list of monthly repayments that included a mortgage, two cars, a boat, etc.

After the termination, the CW took a $250K withdrawal from his 401K (almost the entire balance). This CW is in his early 60’s and was making over $100K/year. My husband is not aware of any health or family issues that would have caused the debt to spiral.

The owners of the company forgave the $60K “loan” and did not press charges, but this CW destroyed his professional reputation and ability to earn a living which he desperately needs (based on his debt load).

whoa

Kitsune

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #697 on: May 09, 2019, 08:47:45 AM »
The lack of imagination is STAGGERING.

I mean, if I was going to be throwing thousands out the door... well.
I'd set up a pottery studio. In a shed, ideally heated and outside of the house.
I'd take a long vacation somewhere fun.
Hell, some really expensive and interesting-looking *ahem* adult toys could be fun.

... TVs, tho? MULTIPLE TVs? It's not like GOT becomes better on a new TV, and it's not like TV shows become more well-written or compelling.

YYK

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #698 on: May 09, 2019, 09:11:30 AM »
My husband’s company recently determined that one of his co-workers in the accounting department “borrowed” $60K from the company without permission. CW insisted the $60K was a loan that he would pay back and was legitimately shocked when the company fired him.
 
My husband was in charge of the fraud investigation and cleanup of CW’s outstanding work. He found e-mail correspondence with the IRS in which the CW was trying to negotiate a repayment plan for a $45K IRS tax delinquency. He also found a spreadsheet where the CW listed all of his outstanding personal credit card totaling $100K+. He also had a list of monthly repayments that included a mortgage, two cars, a boat, etc.

After the termination, the CW took a $250K withdrawal from his 401K (almost the entire balance). This CW is in his early 60’s and was making over $100K/year. My husband is not aware of any health or family issues that would have caused the debt to spiral.

The owners of the company forgave the $60K “loan” and did not press charges, but this CW destroyed his professional reputation and ability to earn a living which he desperately needs (based on his debt load).

Multiple jaw-droppers in this post. Embezzled $60,000? $45,000 tax delinquency? $100k credit card debt?!!? Perhaps the most surprising is that he had that much in his 401k. Doing time for the embezzlement might have been the wakeup call this guy needs.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #699 on: May 09, 2019, 09:14:19 AM »
My husband’s company recently determined that one of his co-workers in the accounting department “borrowed” $60K from the company without permission. CW insisted the $60K was a loan that he would pay back and was legitimately shocked when the company fired him.
 
My husband was in charge of the fraud investigation and cleanup of CW’s outstanding work. He found e-mail correspondence with the IRS in which the CW was trying to negotiate a repayment plan for a $45K IRS tax delinquency. He also found a spreadsheet where the CW listed all of his outstanding personal credit card totaling $100K+. He also had a list of monthly repayments that included a mortgage, two cars, a boat, etc.

After the termination, the CW took a $250K withdrawal from his 401K (almost the entire balance). This CW is in his early 60’s and was making over $100K/year. My husband is not aware of any health or family issues that would have caused the debt to spiral.

The owners of the company forgave the $60K “loan” and did not press charges, but this CW destroyed his professional reputation and ability to earn a living which he desperately needs (based on his debt load).

Multiple jaw-droppers in this post. Embezzled $60,000? $45,000 tax delinquency? $100k credit card debt?!!? Perhaps the most surprising is that he had that much in his 401k. Doing time for the embezzlement might have been the wakeup call this guy needs.

Well now redhead84 knows to embezzle $60k before FIREing because it will be forgiven and no charges will be made