Overheard at Work 2

[techwiz]

Co-worker talking about his boat purchase since the beginning of summer. It was used so he tells us he got a good deal compared to buying something new (he never talks about the actual price). However, he bought it at the start of summer when used prices were at their peek. He has shared pictures and it is a nice cruiser with sleeping/living area on the bottom deck. It took a long time for him to get a docking spot at a local marina. So far the only time he has driven his boat was to park it at the dock at marina. During this he had major issues controlling it (large boat he is not used to driving). Smartly he is paying for some one on one training to get used to operating his boat. Most of the summer has gone by and that one on one training still hasn't happened.  His weekend plans for boating trips have been replaced with cleaning, and doing maintenance and replacing parts while it docked. I hope he get the training and is able to get one or two weekends out on the water before having to put it in winter storage. 

I think his experience with boat ownership matches this definition.
 

I can't help but think the amount of money he has sunk into this boat and the future ongoing costs would pay for multiple a luxury cruises with no maintenance or stress of boat ownership. Of course covid has really ruined the cruising industry and I would not want to be floating on a boat with hundreds of strangers these days..... 

[turketron]

As they say, the two happiest days in a boat owner's life are the day they buy a boat and the day they sell it!

[parkerk]

And as my uncle likes to say, "BOAT" stands for "Bring Out Another Thousand." 

[StashingAway]

It was used so he tells us he got a good deal compared to buying something new (he never talks about the actual price).

Are purchases ever a good deal when phrased that way? That seems like the flip side to "If you have to ask, you can't afford it"

You tell me what you bought it for. Let me decide if it was a good deal or not. ;)

[Valley of Plenty]

So today at work one of my coworkers was expressing their discontent with a recent situation they found themselves in with our employer. His wife tested positive for COVID, and as a result he had to quarantine until 7 days after she stopped showing symptoms / received a negative test result.

Because this particular coworker is unvaccinated, my employer did not grant them paid leave for their quarantine. They were given the option of either using their accrued vacation time, or not getting paid for their time in quarantine. They chose to use up all of their vacation time for the year (which they just received in August), rather than going without pay.

I don't want to focus on the decision made by the company (I'm sure some will/won't agree with it), what I want to focus on is the reason my coworker gave for making this decision:

"I can't afford to go 5 days without pay."

I know this person very well. We've worked together for 5 years. I've been to their house on multiple occasions; it's a six bedroom mini-mansion with big marble columns out front. In his massive paved driveway sits his recently bought 2018 Ford Raptor (a premium package truck that he financed for a cool $50k), alongside his wife's big fancy SUV. I know what he makes in a year, and have a pretty good guess as to how much his wife makes. Together they're pulling in at least $150k annually.

"I can't afford to go 5 days without pay."

The words hit me like a ton of bricks. How do you find yourself in a position like that? Living in a big fancy house, driving big fancy cars, making 2-3x the median household income, yet unable to make ends meet if half of your household income stops coming in for *5 days*?!?!

I know that the obvious answer is the big bad lifestyle inflation. I just still can't wrap my head around how many people have the means to be financially free and secure, but instead choose to chain themselves down with exorbitant spending and debt-income ratios. Or how they manage to do all of this while never stopping to consider that "Hey, maybe I should sit aside a few G's just in case something crazy happens."

I can't wrap my head around it.

[Steeze]

I would be having an anxiety attack at all times if I was 5 days away from disaster all the time.

In their defense, I often say, “i cannot afford to take unpaid time off” - but what I mean is, “I am not FI yet” or, “my employer doesn’t offer unpaid time off, and 20% of my income is a performance bonus”

But yeah, 5 days is rough. I could take off for a couple decades and I’m stressed because it’s not 7+ decades.

[LennStar]

I would be a nervous wreck too. Cannot afford 5 days? I never was in that situation even when on social security.

[ixtap]

I find people mean a lot of things when they say "can't afford." Sometimes it just means "doesn't fit with my cash flow plans." I have a SIL who stresses enough over taking money out of the emergency fund as to give the impression that this thing is a financial burden, even if she is still meeting her goals.

[Chris22]

I find people mean a lot of things when they say "can't afford." Sometimes it just means "doesn't fit with my cash flow plans." I have a SIL who stresses enough over taking money out of the emergency fund as to give the impression that this thing is a financial burden, even if she is still meeting her goals.

Correct. Sometimes it’s as simple as “I’m not willing to take money out of savings for that.”

[jinga nation]

"I can't afford to go 5 days without pay."

He's paycheck to paycheck. He's trying to do the mental math of how to make current month's roof and ride payments. Mini-mansion and Raptor may imply there's no savings each month, possible there isn't any retirement fund contributions.

I've had a co-worker or two at every employer who lives high on the hog. Colleagues tell spendypants to save, in vain. And then kingdom comes. Life is good until you realize you're getting screwed but can't afford lube.

[SwordGuy]

I've had a co-worker or two at every employer who lives high on the hog. Colleagues tell spendypants to save, in vain. And then kingdom comes. Life is good until you realize you're getting screwed but can't afford lube.

Some people just gotta, Gotta, GOTTA learn things the hard way to learn them at all.

I post obits of unvaccinated people who believed Covid was a hoax on Facebook multiple times a week.   Probably equally in vain.    Some of them don't even catch on in the ICU while they're dying from it.

[Dee_the_third]

Okay I've never had a story absurd enough to share with this forum, but I got a doozy today.

My coworker recently got married, and he and his wife are expecting a baby next spring. Yay, good for them! A different coworker informed me that they sold their old house (a 1500 sq ft 3bed/2bath) and moved into a 3000+ 4 bed/3bath.

Me: "Wow, that seems kind of insane. Their old house had 3 bedrooms"
Her: "But they're having a BABY"
Me, who lives in a 700 sq ft 2 bed/1bath with my husband and 1 year-old: "Um, 3 bedrooms seems plenty for a married couple and a baby."
Her: "Well, maybe for YOU"
Me: "......................"

It makes me so annoyed, and nobody seems to understand why I think it was a terrible decision. Their old place was in a quiet neighborhood directly across the street from a park. Their new location mandates driving to work and it's at the intersection of 2 major roads. People value the strangest things.

[Dee_the_third]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

[ixtap]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

And so much more to clean when you already have new tasks to learn!

[Chris22]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

Wait…you think that’s a good thing??

[trashtalk]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

Wait…you think that’s a good thing??

fwiw I concur that it’s a good thing

[charis]

The "maybe for you" comment strikes me as aggressive and judgmental, like it should be followed with "ya cheap a**.". But it is gossipy no matter which side you're own so maybe she was feeling defensive on a friend's behalf.

[Nangirl17]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

Agreed.

My mother lived in a massive 7 bedroom farmhouse when her 3 kids were rugrats. She said that we were always under her feet, dragging our toys into the kitchen to play, and when they moved into a <1000 sq ft house, it was no different - always underfoot. She only felt the need to move out of that house once we got into our preteens - once we were more "adult-sized" she felt like she needed more space.

[Dee_the_third]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

Wait…you think that’s a good thing??

fwiw I concur that it’s a good thing

Yeah I mean I guess it depends on your situation. Yes, it's good to have space to get away from an inconsolable screaming newborn so you don't go insane. When I felt like I was going to snap I handed him to his dad and went outside to take deep breaths. Now he's one, he's generally a pretty happy baby, and I can go wash dishes while he's napping and know that when he wakes up I'll be able to hear him right away. If I need to focus while Dad has him I put on some headphones and play white noise. My point is that you don't need an enormous house to be able to escape your kids.

[Chris22]

We started Covid in a 1700 sq ft split level.

We currently live in a 3000sq ft house + 1500 sq ft basement because the four of us living, working, and learning together in a small space is completely untenable.

[talltexan]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

Wait…you think that’s a good thing??

fwiw I concur that it’s a good thing

We had my newborn daughter in a house with a basement in Ohio, and it was such a relief to be able to take that screaming baby into the basement so her mother could roll up a few hours of sleep.

[dragoncar]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

Wait…you think that’s a good thing??

fwiw I concur that it’s a good thing

We had my newborn daughter in a house with a basement in Ohio, and it was such a relief to be able to take that screaming baby into the basement so her mother could roll up a few hours of sleep.

Earplugs exist

[charis]

And I want to add also - I think it's actually easier to have a baby in a smaller house. We went to my inlaws place which is a 2500+ with 2 levels, and there was soo much climbing up and down stairs. And you couldn't hear the baby from the other side of the house to monitor for naps. Meanwhile, our current place is about 25 steps wide total, and you can hear the baby from anywhere in the house. Different priorities I guess.

Wait…you think that’s a good thing??

fwiw I concur that it’s a good thing

We had my newborn daughter in a house with a basement in Ohio, and it was such a relief to be able to take that screaming baby into the basement so her mother could roll up a few hours of sleep.

Earplugs exist

They don't work for everyone, never have for me

[pennyhandlebar]

I know this person very well. We've worked together for 5 years. I've been to their house on multiple occasions; it's a six bedroom mini-mansion with big marble columns out front. In his massive paved driveway sits his recently bought 2018 Ford Raptor (a premium package truck that he financed for a cool $50k), alongside his wife's big fancy SUV. I know what he makes in a year, and have a pretty good guess as to how much his wife makes. Together they're pulling in at least $150k annually.

I find the idea of spending that much on housing and trucks on $150k/year in HH salary pretty frightening. We're a little ahead of that and share a single 8-year-old station wagon...throwing a $50k used monster truck into the mix would keep me up at night.

[Chris22]

I know this person very well. We've worked together for 5 years. I've been to their house on multiple occasions; it's a six bedroom mini-mansion with big marble columns out front. In his massive paved driveway sits his recently bought 2018 Ford Raptor (a premium package truck that he financed for a cool $50k), alongside his wife's big fancy SUV. I know what he makes in a year, and have a pretty good guess as to how much his wife makes. Together they're pulling in at least $150k annually.

I find the idea of spending that much on housing and trucks on $150k/year in HH salary pretty frightening. We're a little ahead of that and share a single 8-year-old station wagon...throwing a $50k used monster truck into the mix would keep me up at night.

Say what you will about the Raptor, but generally you can turn around and unload them for as much or more than you paid for them. I have a very well off friend who has had two, a first Gen and a second Gen and he traded in the first Gen (paid off) for something crazy like $5-10k less than he paid for it 3 years and 30k or something miles earlier.  Second Gen cost him like $20k (cash) out the door.

[Jouer]

We started Covid in a 1700 sq ft split level.

We currently live in a 3000sq ft house + 1500 sq ft basement because the four of us living, working, and learning together in a small space is completely untenable.

Covid led us to increase our home size as well. We're in the process of moving from 750sqft to 1250. I'm going to feel like a king in that place!

[Askel]

Say what you will about the Raptor, but generally you can turn around and unload them for as much or more than you paid for them. I have a very well off friend who has had two, a first Gen and a second Gen and he traded in the first Gen (paid off) for something crazy like $5-10k less than he paid for it 3 years and 30k or something miles earlier.  Second Gen cost him like $20k (cash) out the door.

Ah yes, the wave your arms and ignore certain facts method of accounting for stupid toy rationalization. 

Porsche guys do this all the time. 

But most of them are lying. They paid over MSRP for the dumb toy, which is why it's still selling for close to MSRP now.  They often "forget" about this when tying to impress us.

But hey, even if they are being honest- it still ignores a couple of things they absolutely never mention.

-Sales tax on that new expensive car. Even if he's only $20k out of pocket, he's still paying tax on the purchase price.
-Insurance on brand new "hot" cars. 
-The opportunity cost of parking all that money in a toy.   

[SwordGuy]

Say what you will about the Raptor, but generally you can turn around and unload them for as much or more than you paid for them. I have a very well off friend who has had two, a first Gen and a second Gen and he traded in the first Gen (paid off) for something crazy like $5-10k less than he paid for it 3 years and 30k or something miles earlier.  Second Gen cost him like $20k (cash) out the door.

So, his capital cost for access to a car (ignoring driving costs and insurance costs) was about $10k plus insurance and taxes for a new car for 3 years.   Let's assume he repeats that for 12 years, so it costs him around $50k for all of that.

For $55k, I bought a slightly used car AND a complete rental house, and put in another $5k in repairs, which profits me by $5k a year.   Did pretty much the same thing with my wife's car, too.

I like my way of buying cars better.  :)

[Chris22]

Say what you will about the Raptor, but generally you can turn around and unload them for as much or more than you paid for them. I have a very well off friend who has had two, a first Gen and a second Gen and he traded in the first Gen (paid off) for something crazy like $5-10k less than he paid for it 3 years and 30k or something miles earlier.  Second Gen cost him like $20k (cash) out the door.

Ah yes, the wave your arms and ignore certain facts method of accounting for stupid toy rationalization. 

Porsche guys do this all the time. 

But most of them are lying. They paid over MSRP for the dumb toy, which is why it's still selling for close to MSRP now.  They often "forget" about this when tying to impress us.

But hey, even if they are being honest- it still ignores a couple of things they absolutely never mention.

-Sales tax on that new expensive car. Even if he's only $20k out of pocket, he's still paying tax on the purchase price.
-Insurance on brand new "hot" cars. 
-The opportunity cost of parking all that money in a toy.

So angry.

Sales tax was minimal, in IL (at the time) you paid the difference between the purchase price and trade in price. So if you buy a truck for $70k but have a trade in for $55k, you’re only paying ($70k - $55k = $15k * 8.25% = $1250).  Not nothing, but not that big a deal.

Insurance on like for like is minimal. I just turned in a leased $45k Jeep and leased a new $60k Jeep; my insurance went up $8 on my 6-mo premium ($500).   


Opportunity cost, yes, that is certainly valid.

My point is just the Raptor is not a great purchase BUT if one needs to they can get out of it for close to what they paid. They don’t lose a lot on depreciation.

[Chris22]

Say what you will about the Raptor, but generally you can turn around and unload them for as much or more than you paid for them. I have a very well off friend who has had two, a first Gen and a second Gen and he traded in the first Gen (paid off) for something crazy like $5-10k less than he paid for it 3 years and 30k or something miles earlier.  Second Gen cost him like $20k (cash) out the door.

So, his capital cost for access to a car (ignoring driving costs and insurance costs) was about $10k plus insurance and taxes for a new car for 3 years.   Let's assume he repeats that for 12 years, so it costs him around $50k for all of that.

For $55k, I bought a slightly used car AND a complete rental house, and put in another $5k in repairs, which profits me by $5k a year.   Did pretty much the same thing with my wife's car, too.

I like my way of buying cars better.  :)

Life’s all about choices. He and his wife own a successful dental practice, including the strip mall it’s in that they collect rent on from other tenants. He’s not blowing all his money on cars.

My point is simply that you see “$55k truck = huge money sump” and there’s more nuance than that.

[Askel]

A dentist who owns a strip mall and a raptor. This is pretty much everything wrong with the world in one stereotype.

So tell me about his McMansion. :D 

[dragoncar]

A dentist who owns a strip mall and a raptor. This is pretty much everything wrong with the world in one stereotype.

So tell me about his McMansion. :D

Dude must sell a lot of $100 fluoride treatments

[Weisass]

A dentist who owns a strip mall and a raptor. This is pretty much everything wrong with the world in one stereotype.

So tell me about his McMansion. :D

Dude must sell a lot of $100 fluoride treatments

Or maybe does Botox on the side? I knew a dentist who did that for pocket money.

[markbike528CBX]

A dentist who owns a strip mall and a raptor. This is pretty much everything wrong with the world in one stereotype.

So tell me about his McMansion. :D

Dude must sell a lot of $100 fluoride treatments

Or maybe does Botox on the side? I knew a dentist who did that for pocket money.

Nothing wrong with a strip mall, sounds like Mustachian real estate.

The Raptor ?  if it is this one.... then OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SpaceX_sea-level_Raptor_at_Hawthorne_-_2.jpgRaptor

Botox?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/vx-nerve-agent
Botulinum toxin is reported to be the most toxic substance known. Comparatively, it is 10–15,000 times more toxic than VX nerve agent.

markbike528cbx's calculation says Botulinum toxin is 4,000 times more toxic than VX nerve gas (source Merck Index).

Fun fact: Umatilla Army Depot, in worry-range of my house,  once had enough VX and other toxins to give everyone on the planet 4000 lethal doses (if somehow distributed as single lethal capsules).

[Valley of Plenty]

I just turned in a leased $45k Jeep and leased a new $60k Jeep

You should have just led with that, would have saved the rest of us a lot of reading.

[Chris22]

I just turned in a leased $45k Jeep and leased a new $60k Jeep

You should have just led with that, would have saved the rest of us a lot of reading.

Meh. I got the PHEV Jeep. I actually want to own it long term, but it’s brand new tech from Chrysler so I’m wary of how well they made it. I’m going to treat my lease as a long test drive, and if it proves unreliable, I’ll give it back. If it’s reliable, I’ll buy it out. I don’t trust them enough to buy it from the get go.

[Valley of Plenty]

And yes, it is true that trucks tend to hold their value better than cars. It's also true that the cost of ownership is substantially higher for them.

They're considerably less fuel efficient, their parts are more expensive, and the initial purchase price is generally about twice what you'd pay for a car of the same year, mileage, and condition.

Never mind the fact that most of the people who buy "fancy" trucks don't even use them for what they're designed for. Trucks are meant to be work-horses, and they're meant to take a beating. If your truck never leaves the pavement and never hauls anywhere near its towing capacity, it's a big dumb waste of money. Even more so if you go with short bed / extended cab options or lift kits, all of which make a truck worse at being a truck.

[Askel]

I just turned in a leased $45k Jeep and leased a new $60k Jeep

You should have just led with that, would have saved the rest of us a lot of reading.

Those suburban malls ain't gonna crawl themselves. 

[Adventine]

A dentist who owns a strip mall and a raptor. This is pretty much everything wrong with the world in one stereotype.

So tell me about his McMansion. :D

Dude must sell a lot of $100 fluoride treatments

Or maybe does Botox on the side? I knew a dentist who did that for pocket money.

Nothing wrong with a strip mall, sounds like Mustachian real estate.

The Raptor ?  if it is this one.... then OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SpaceX_sea-level_Raptor_at_Hawthorne_-_2.jpgRaptor

Botox?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/vx-nerve-agent
Botulinum toxin is reported to be the most toxic substance known. Comparatively, it is 10–15,000 times more toxic than VX nerve agent.

markbike528cbx's calculation says Botulinum toxin is 4,000 times more toxic than VX nerve gas (source Merck Index).

Fun fact: Umatilla Army Depot, in worry-range of my house,  once had enough VX and other toxins to give everyone on the planet 4000 lethal doses (if somehow distributed as single lethal capsules).

Botox the cosmetic treatment :) https://www.botoxcosmetic.com/

Makes people look unnaturally wrinkle-free.

[Chris22]

I just turned in a leased $45k Jeep and leased a new $60k Jeep

You should have just led with that, would have saved the rest of us a lot of reading.

Those suburban malls ain't gonna crawl themselves.

I’m in the woods with it working right now (lunch break)

[Dee_the_third]

Say what you will about the Raptor, but generally you can turn around and unload them for as much or more than you paid for them. I have a very well off friend who has had two, a first Gen and a second Gen and he traded in the first Gen (paid off) for something crazy like $5-10k less than he paid for it 3 years and 30k or something miles earlier.  Second Gen cost him like $20k (cash) out the door.

So, his capital cost for access to a car (ignoring driving costs and insurance costs) was about $10k plus insurance and taxes for a new car for 3 years.   Let's assume he repeats that for 12 years, so it costs him around $50k for all of that.

For $55k, I bought a slightly used car AND a complete rental house, and put in another $5k in repairs, which profits me by $5k a year.   Did pretty much the same thing with my wife's car, too.

I like my way of buying cars better.  :)

Life’s all about choices. He and his wife own a successful dental practice, including the strip mall it’s in that they collect rent on from other tenants. He’s not blowing all his money on cars.

My point is simply that you see “$55k truck = huge money sump” and there’s more nuance than that.

Eesh. Never thought I'd see the day when I saw someone defending driving one of those things. Dangerous for other road users and horribly inefficient at both carrying people and hauling, what's not to hate?

[Steeze]

A dentist who owns a strip mall and a raptor. This is pretty much everything wrong with the world in one stereotype.

So tell me about his McMansion. :D

Dude must sell a lot of $100 fluoride treatments

Or maybe does Botox on the side? I knew a dentist who did that for pocket money.

Nothing wrong with a strip mall, sounds like Mustachian real estate.

The Raptor ?  if it is this one.... then OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SpaceX_sea-level_Raptor_at_Hawthorne_-_2.jpgRaptor

Botox?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/vx-nerve-agent
Botulinum toxin is reported to be the most toxic substance known. Comparatively, it is 10–15,000 times more toxic than VX nerve agent.

markbike528cbx's calculation says Botulinum toxin is 4,000 times more toxic than VX nerve gas (source Merck Index).

Fun fact: Umatilla Army Depot, in worry-range of my house,  once had enough VX and other toxins to give everyone on the planet 4000 lethal doses (if somehow distributed as single lethal capsules).

Botox the cosmetic treatment :) https://www.botoxcosmetic.com/

Makes people look unnaturally wrinkle-free.

The slide before / after pics on there are great! hahaha people need to relax.

[zolotiyeruki]

The slide before / after pics on there are great! hahaha people need to relax.

"Alright, make sure you scowl as hard as you can for the 'before' picture!"

[markbike528CBX]

A dentist who owns a strip mall and a raptor. This is pretty much everything wrong with the world in one stereotype.

So tell me about his McMansion. :D

Dude must sell a lot of $100 fluoride treatments

Or maybe does Botox on the side? I knew a dentist who did that for pocket money.

Nothing wrong with a strip mall, sounds like Mustachian real estate.

The Raptor ?  if it is this one.... then OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SpaceX_sea-level_Raptor_at_Hawthorne_-_2.jpgRaptor

Botox?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/vx-nerve-agent
Botulinum toxin is reported to be the most toxic substance known. Comparatively, it is 10–15,000 times more toxic than VX nerve agent.

markbike528cbx's calculation says Botulinum toxin is 4,000 times more toxic than VX nerve gas (source Merck Index).

Fun fact: Umatilla Army Depot, in worry-range of my house,  once had enough VX and other toxins to give everyone on the planet 4000 lethal doses (if somehow distributed as single lethal capsules).

Botox the cosmetic treatment :) https://www.botoxcosmetic.com/

Makes people look unnaturally wrinkle-free.

I think Aventine, gets the joke, but for others:
Botox the cosmetic treatment IS Botulinum toxin!

[Steeze]

The slide before / after pics on there are great! hahaha people need to relax.

"Alright, make sure you scowl as hard as you can for the 'before' picture!"

Is there some small percentage of people who’s faces get stuck like that and actually need this type of treatment to correct it? Is that what this website is attempting to demonstrate?

[Adventine]

@markbike528CBX oh yes, I remember one of my favorite uncles, a dermatologist, explaining that to me a long time ago. It was pretty funny when he Botoxed my dad (his brother) for free a couple of years back. It made a huge difference in his face!

But the wrinkles came back after some months because my dad is usually a scowler and doesn't really take care of his health. Oh well. At least it was free.

[SwordGuy]

But the wrinkles came back after some months because my dad is usually a scowler and doesn't really take care of his health.

A dear friend said something to me years ago that really resonated.

At 18 you have the face you were born with.

At 40 you have the face you have made.

[geekette]

Botox can be useful medically, too. A friend (in his 30’s) had a throat problem - swallowing was painful and difficult. He had a Botox injection that helped, both in confirming the cause of the problem and a temporary fix.

[kina]

I have a friend who is prone to frequent debilitating migraines. Botox injections have given her back her life.

[Adventine]

But the wrinkles came back after some months because my dad is usually a scowler and doesn't really take care of his health.

A dear friend said something to me years ago that really resonated.

At 18 you have the face you were born with.

At 40 you have the face you have made.

And if you live in Southern Calif then at 50 plus you have the face that Dr. 90210 made  ;-).

@SwordGuy oh, I agree with you, 100%.

Here is my dad's Botox backstory:

My dad would normally never had agreed to the Botox, except he was down and depressed at the time.  He had just lost his wife (my mother) to whom he was married for 32 years. Mom died at the age of 50 from an extremely aggressive form of cancer. It was harrowing for all her caregivers (my dad, me and my two sisters). We were run ragged, and we all looked it.

Dad took it the hardest after Mom died. So his dermatologist brother had the idea to give him Botox (on top of a lot of other professional dermatology treatments) to help him feel better about himself. All of us thought it was fine, especially as this uncle of ours had been there for Dad every step of the way: emotionally, physically, and financially, from Mom's diagnosis until her death.

The derma treatments worked (temporarily). But since Dad didn't really change any of his habits, and didn't go back for touch-ups, he eventually went back to how he normally looked.

As for me, I'll stick to my Mustachian anti-aging routine: a healthy diet, regular exercise, no alcohol, and a generally happy disposition in life. Oh, and sunscreen. Lots and lots of sunscreen.