Author Topic: Overheard at Work 2  (Read 393925 times)

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1900 on: December 04, 2019, 03:27:45 PM »
What specific breed of dog costs $4k? I'm just curious.

Any breed, if you get it purebred from the "right" breeders can cost that much.

I don't know how much my brother spent on his purebred pointer, but it was definitely an unmustachian amount for "a dog". But he was specifically looking for a male and specifically looking at the lines, to the point that he had hunted with 5/6 of his dogs parents and grandparents before he made his decision. It is his hobby, so it definitely makes sense to me.

There are also certain situations where I can see that it would make sense to get a well-bred puppy from a breeder rather than rescuing. I/my parents when I was a kid have now rescued 4 dogs, and we got 1 from a breeder as well. 3 of the 4 rescues would be EXCELLENT with small children. 1 of them would not be, but you wouldn't have known it based on when you met him and based on the rescue organizations knowledge of him.
You are getting a mystery with a rescue dog. Certain breeds will do better than others, but you can eliminate a lot (but not all) of the risk if you do your research and get a bred puppy. Of course, from what I've seen most do not do the research and most litters are not actually well bred, but I am certainly not eliminating getting a puppy from a breeder for my kids if the situation is right for it. Rescuing will be the preferred method, but it isn't the right way for every situation.

Similarly, my brother (the same who spent a lot on his dog) also fosters Pointers. I think they've had about 17 of them at this point. He'd tell you some stories, but the gist of it is that quite simply, rescuing and fostering isn't always as easy as the internet makes it out to be and sometimes getting a well bred puppy is the better option. This is especially true for certain breeds, like pointers, where they're neurotic and high strung as a baseline. This is of course made worse by bad breeding and inbreeding, but he's written certain breeds off entirely due to that.
A few of my friends have recently paid for bred puppies.  I didn't really ask all of them WHY they wanted a purebed "whatever".  In one case, it was looking for a hypoallergenic dog.  The others?  Dunno.  A few friends have driven thousands of miles or flown to pick up a puppy.  A few more have been breeding dogs like pugs or dalmations.

We adopted a shelter dog just last week.  Not free!  She was $75, plus we bought a few things there.  We will also need to get her vaccinated and checked out by a vet soon.

Hypoallergenic, fine (if it really is, and isn't just a doodle that they think is because it had a poodle sperm donor), but I get annoyed with breeding pugs, English bullodgs, etc.; these are dogs that probably shouldn't exist anymore. And Dalmations are really not great dogs for a family. Annoying as all get out when people get dogs for image reasons.

When we rescued 2 elderly dogs, I think the fee was waived for one of them and it was still $300. But I looked at it as a donation to keep the rescue running. After all, they have to care for the dogs and everything. Owning a dog is a large financial commitment one way or another. Dog food, vet visits, boarding when necessary... it adds up, and it can seriously impact your life. On the other hand, I know our dog has probably saved my wife from serious depression. The value and true unconditional love that a dog brings to our lives - or at least for my wife and I - is priceless.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1901 on: December 04, 2019, 03:45:44 PM »
Paying a shelter is money well spent.  And I agree there are reasons to buy a purebred. 

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1902 on: December 04, 2019, 04:31:35 PM »
I guess I need to go hide my $600 dog before everyone shows up with torches and pitchforks.

No one is going to literally murder you for paying for a dog.

But that doesn't mean people can't have opinions about it.

Do I need to follow up my posts with a bazinga or something to indicate that I'm not serious?

If you're regularly being misunderstood by multiple readers, then possibly yes.

As far as I know, it's just been one reader. But I'll start doing that to avoid the vengeful ire.

Edit: added a disclaimer to signature

I don’t think kris is literally seeking to harm you in return for a perceived injury.

Sugaree

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1903 on: December 05, 2019, 06:13:43 AM »
Adopting from an animal shelter can cost as much as $600 in some places.

Ask me how I know..

I suspect that my "free" puppy is going to run me at least that much in the first year. 

SheWhoWalksAtLunch

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1904 on: December 05, 2019, 08:11:42 AM »
Adopting from an animal shelter can cost as much as $600 in some places.

Ask me how I know..

I suspect that my "free" puppy is going to run me at least that much in the first year.

In this case the $600 was straight adoption fee only.  The money goes to support a rescue league I believe in and the dog came spayed and with all her shots so no big deal, but the fee was before any follow up vet visits or "canine comfort" purchases.

Canine comfort can definitely run into big bucks if you're susceptible to the diderot effect.  IE: I know she already has a water bowl, but this one is soooo cute. Repeat for leash, bed, toy, winter coat, whatever.

Sugaree

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1905 on: December 05, 2019, 12:29:17 PM »
Adopting from an animal shelter can cost as much as $600 in some places.

Ask me how I know..

I suspect that my "free" puppy is going to run me at least that much in the first year.

In this case the $600 was straight adoption fee only.  The money goes to support a rescue league I believe in and the dog came spayed and with all her shots so no big deal, but the fee was before any follow up vet visits or "canine comfort" purchases.

Canine comfort can definitely run into big bucks if you're susceptible to the diderot effect.  IE: I know she already has a water bowl, but this one is soooo cute. Repeat for leash, bed, toy, winter coat, whatever.

Well, we already have a lot of the canine comfort items.  She's gotten some new toys and a kennel.  It's the vetting that I'm counting on being expensive.  From what little I know of her history, she's probably going to have to have all her shots and be spayed.  And that's assuming she's heartworm negative (she likely has not been on preventative up until now).

afuera

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1906 on: December 05, 2019, 12:43:57 PM »
Our first dog came free from a friend/coworker.  They had purchased her from a breeder for something like $1200 but couldn't keep her any longer.  We had never heard of the breed before we got her and ended completely falling in love with her and the breed. When we decided to get a 2nd dog, we found a breed specific rescue so we could both rescue a dog but get the same breed as our first dog.   When people see us in public, they probably think we spent $$$$ on our fancypants dogs.

Sugaree

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1907 on: December 05, 2019, 12:52:08 PM »
I'm sure people assume I paid out the nose for mine too.  I've got a full-blooded, registered golden retriever.  He was a Craigslist find after the breed-specific rescue turned us down for having an intact male (he almost died from the anesthesia so it was determined that it was probably best that he not go under again).  The new puppy is mostly chocolate lab.  She wandered up to my brother's house a few weeks ago.  When we finally tracked down her owners, they told us they didn't want her back (this is why puppies make bad gifts). 

OtherJen

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1908 on: December 05, 2019, 01:06:24 PM »
I'm sure people assume I paid out the nose for mine too.  I've got a full-blooded, registered golden retriever.  He was a Craigslist find after the breed-specific rescue turned us down for having an intact male (he almost died from the anesthesia so it was determined that it was probably best that he not go under again).  The new puppy is mostly chocolate lab.  She wandered up to my brother's house a few weeks ago.  When we finally tracked down her owners, they told us they didn't want her back (this is why puppies make bad gifts).

They just let her go?! How awful and heartbreaking. People suck.

We've been talking about adopting another cat. I think now we'll wait until January so that we can adopt someone's abandoned/surrendered Christmas present. 

Sugaree

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1909 on: December 05, 2019, 01:12:34 PM »
I'm sure people assume I paid out the nose for mine too.  I've got a full-blooded, registered golden retriever.  He was a Craigslist find after the breed-specific rescue turned us down for having an intact male (he almost died from the anesthesia so it was determined that it was probably best that he not go under again).  The new puppy is mostly chocolate lab.  She wandered up to my brother's house a few weeks ago.  When we finally tracked down her owners, they told us they didn't want her back (this is why puppies make bad gifts).

They just let her go?! How awful and heartbreaking. People suck.

We've been talking about adopting another cat. I think now we'll wait until January so that we can adopt someone's abandoned/surrendered Christmas present.

She was a gift from an adult child to the youngest child.  I don't think the child's mom was consulted about this decision.  She was being kept in a poorly secured fence.  She got out and they found her and put her back in the fence.  I guess they didn't fix the fence well enough because she got out again.  This is when she ended up at my brother's house, eating the cat food off their porch.  No collar, no chip.  They have six dogs already so I agreed to take her until her owners could be found.

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1910 on: December 05, 2019, 01:44:39 PM »
Our first dog came free from a friend/coworker.  They had purchased her from a breeder for something like $1200 but couldn't keep her any longer.  We had never heard of the breed before we got her and ended completely falling in love with her and the breed. When we decided to get a 2nd dog, we found a breed specific rescue so we could both rescue a dog but get the same breed as our first dog.   When people see us in public, they probably think we spent $$$$ on our fancypants dogs.

Curious what breed?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1911 on: December 05, 2019, 02:09:17 PM »
Our first dog came free from a friend/coworker.  They had purchased her from a breeder for something like $1200 but couldn't keep her any longer.  We had never heard of the breed before we got her and ended completely falling in love with her and the breed. When we decided to get a 2nd dog, we found a breed specific rescue so we could both rescue a dog but get the same breed as our first dog.   When people see us in public, they probably think we spent $$$$ on our fancypants dogs.

Curious what breed?

Me too. 

I understand falling in love with a breed.  I loved the breed characteristics of our first dog that our second and third dogs were also that breed.

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1912 on: December 05, 2019, 04:25:26 PM »
I guess I need to go hide my $600 dog before everyone shows up with torches and pitchforks.

No one is going to literally murder you for paying for a dog.

But that doesn't mean people can't have opinions about it.

Do I need to follow up my posts with a bazinga or something to indicate that I'm not serious?

If you're regularly being misunderstood by multiple readers, then possibly yes.

...going to look up what a bazinga is... Oh - a TV show reference. Never watched Big Bang (yet).

Our dog was cheap but the price to fix her up after an accident is well into the nice used car territory.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1913 on: December 05, 2019, 06:21:01 PM »
I got an SPCA dog.   The shelters here have pitbull mixes, husky mixes, cane corso, and other agressive breeds.  The few that arent' were actually flown in from another country (I am not supporting killing local animals and flying in out of country ones), and a few with special "quirks" which is why they are given up. 
The spay and neuter program has been very successful around here, that is evident.

What the cost with my dog is -- ok, maybe $1000 all in for adoption fee, vaccinations, crate, toys and food (and a private trainer sessions because of those "quirks").

What the higher cost is?   
It is very difficult to have a dog without a car.


I can leave her at home to run errands, or take her with me in a car.   We can't bike to all the best walking spots. I need a car to take her to the vet.

I also can't rent a place around here if I have a dog, so locked into higher cost place away from apartment buildings and more into suburbia where a bike or car is needed.

auntie_betty

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1914 on: December 05, 2019, 10:21:50 PM »
Quote

Last time I traveled overnight for work I traveled with three other coworkers. I put the whole thing on my credit card for the points and convenience. Rather than wait for them to get it together and make the arrangements I could choose a comfortable place to stay close to our destination which I did.

Employer reimbursed each person individually and each person passed the money to me - except one. Two months later the highest paid member of that trip as yet to reimburse me though they have publicly promised they would. A couple of hundred bucks more or less. That person is over me on the pecking order.

I won't take the initiative to be efficient again.

This seems a crazy way of doing things - surely the person incurring the debt should get paid?

About 15 years ago, before we had company credit cards (which were automatically paid by the company) I worked away with a colleague for around four weeks. His own credit card was maxed so I picked up the bills and loyalty card points. Accumulated enough for a free hotel night. Used the night. Went to a property exhibition in the hotel. Booked a v cheap inspection trip (from UK to Spain). Bought an apartment off plan (we'd vaguely talked about buying somewhere and one we saw ticked all the boxes). When we took ownership I sat on the terrace the first night, watched the sun set over the mountains and announced I didn't want it as a holiday home, I wanted to live there. That was 2007, when I was 46. Set myself a target of retiring before 60. Had always wanted to retire early but this was tangible so motivation was high. Worked my guts off and spreadsheet obligingly showed retirement age coming down to 58. Then 56, 55, 54. Went at 53, moved to Spain and never looked back. All because Rupert liked a champagne lifestyle on a lemonade budget.
Cheers Rupert :)

Back on topic - as I'm FIRE'd I've no work to overhear but I heard this a few days ago while back in the UK. Two people discussing lottery wins and whether to take the lump sum or 30k a year.
Person 1. I'd have to have the lump sum as 30k would just get lost in normal day to day expenditure.
Person 2. You're right, it's not enough to make a difference.
Neither looked well-heeled. I had to resist the urge to shake them. Choose a lump sum if you think it works out best but to use the rationale that 30k would just be extra pocket money?

Sugaree

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1915 on: December 06, 2019, 04:32:42 AM »
I got an SPCA dog.   The shelters here have pitbull mixes, husky mixes, cane corso, and other agressive breeds.  The few that arent' were actually flown in from another country (I am not supporting killing local animals and flying in out of country ones), and a few with special "quirks" which is why they are given up. 
The spay and neuter program has been very successful around here, that is evident.

What the cost with my dog is -- ok, maybe $1000 all in for adoption fee, vaccinations, crate, toys and food (and a private trainer sessions because of those "quirks").


I live in an area that's known to be a cesspool of people not fixing their animals and we have the same issues with shelter variety.  We've got a lot of pit mixes around here too.  My brother has one and she's the biggest snugglebug ever, but my city makes owning one so damn difficult that I won't do it.  For example, my city allows my dog to be unleashed as long as he's in my yard, under my control, and I'm with him.  If he were a pit, he'd have to be leashed at all times and I *think* they also require a taller fence, but don't quote me on that.  For the record, I can see where this would cause a problem because my idea of "under my control" is probably different than other people's.  The golden is free to run around the yard when we're out there (but won't because he's a velcro dog), but the puppy still stays on leash until I trust her not to take off down the street.


LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1916 on: December 06, 2019, 09:53:16 AM »
Not from work, just read, but still, a finance tip:

Trouble with spending too much? Make three categories.
1. Needed 2. Wanted 4. Superfluous
and make a budget for each.

Wait! WTF? Budget?

If you need, buy. You cannot not buy if you need, after all. Why a budget? But even more - a budget for things you _don't_ want? Why would you lose money for things you don't want???

Kris

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1917 on: December 06, 2019, 11:02:25 AM »
Not from work, just read, but still, a finance tip:

Trouble with spending too much? Make three categories.
1. Needed 2. Wanted 4. Superfluous
and make a budget for each.

Wait! WTF? Budget?

If you need, buy. You cannot not buy if you need, after all. Why a budget? But even more - a budget for things you _don't_ want? Why would you lose money for things you don't want???

I very often get the vibe from people in our culture that they buy things just because... I dunno, because they haven't bought anything yet today? I think there's a not-insubstantial percentage of people for whom the idea of not spending money for an entire day would make them feel panicky/anxious.

imadandylion

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1918 on: December 06, 2019, 12:07:20 PM »
Not from work, just read, but still, a finance tip:

Trouble with spending too much? Make three categories.
1. Needed 2. Wanted 4. Superfluous
and make a budget for each.

Wait! WTF? Budget?

If you need, buy. You cannot not buy if you need, after all. Why a budget? But even more - a budget for things you _don't_ want? Why would you lose money for things you don't want???

My criticism with advice like that which are similar to those pie charts you see on Pinterest on how to budget your money is that they always include a "spending" budget. They usually like to suggest a percentage of what your monthly/biweekly income should go towards. Basic living expenses make sense, and savings, but they always include discretionary spending and this kind of leads to normalizing the amount of spending. More often than not, if a total money "beginner" tries to search on google questions to learn about money management, there are a slew of articles and images depicting the suggested ranges to be spent on certain things. There's a lot of information that tries to be helpful but somehow ends up doing more harm...

These "budgets" typically include things like transportation, entertainment, and "miscellaneous." I honestly believe that some people take this to mean, that if they look at their finances or otherwise tweak their monthly spending to fit those suggested percentages per category that they're doing well or "OK" with their money. Like for instance, "Oh, my rent is 25% of my budget! That fits in! Great. No need to change anything here." That train of thought coupled with the fact that a lot of people just haven't been exposed to very many ideas and the opportunities that saving vastly more money can afford, it's hard for them to think there's something better. A lot of people do what they think is best based off what they know at the time, often without question or consideration that there could be a better or different way.

Also, consumerism is normalized, so it's not really so surprising that people are buying things they don't need or are having issues distinguishing that. A lot of times people won't realize this until they're in debt.

merula

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1919 on: December 06, 2019, 12:47:34 PM »
To add on to this, the entire concept of retirement savings in mainstream financial media is purely as a percentage of current income. You save 5-10% of your income for retirement, you retire when you've saved 20, 25, 30 times income. No one mentions spending. Why? Because the default is that you're spending every single penny you have outside of that 5-10% of retirement savings, and you couldn't possibly stop spending that much after you retire, so retirement income needs to be your prior income less retirement savings and any obviously work-related expenses like dry cleaning.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1920 on: December 06, 2019, 12:49:57 PM »
Not from work, just read, but still, a finance tip:

Trouble with spending too much? Make three categories.
1. Needed 2. Wanted 4. Superfluous
and make a budget for each.

Wait! WTF? Budget?

If you need, buy. You cannot not buy if you need, after all. Why a budget? But even more - a budget for things you _don't_ want? Why would you lose money for things you don't want???

I very often get the vibe from people in our culture that they buy things just because... I dunno, because they haven't bought anything yet today? I think there's a not-insubstantial percentage of people for whom the idea of not spending money for an entire day would make them feel panicky/anxious.

I'm fascinated by this too.  I agree with your point about a  consumerist mindset.  It also seems that people buy ideas or emotions or something, rather than items.

Consider a car loan: I work with dozens of people who buy new cars every couple years, presumably rolling over their loans.  This seemed silly to me because I didn't understand why someone would pay five figures for heated seats or new rims, when their existing car does 95% of the new one.  But if you only look at payments, you might think it's worth it. (Of course, it isn't)

So really it comes down to the fact that people don't save the capital to buy an asset like a car, so they're always playing this psychological financing game with themselves.

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1921 on: December 07, 2019, 01:16:02 AM »

I'm fascinated by this too.  I agree with your point about a  consumerist mindset.  It also seems that people buy ideas or emotions or something, rather than items.

That is certainly true for ads today. The industry has learned that people don't buy stuff, they buy emotions. That is why in car ads you will never see (except maybe the PS) and actual data about the car until the very end for 2 seconds. The rest is all landscape and maybe smiling faces.

Just yesterday I saw an ad by the McD. A mother had lost her child, searched for it etc. She also asked at a McD but you could see the company logo for only 1 second. It only reappeared in the last moment after the happy reunification.
See the trick here?

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1922 on: December 07, 2019, 11:21:36 AM »
Not from work, just read, but still, a finance tip:

Trouble with spending too much? Make three categories.
1. Needed 2. Wanted 4. Superfluous
and make a budget for each.

Wait! WTF? Budget?

If you need, buy. You cannot not buy if you need, after all. Why a budget? But even more - a budget for things you _don't_ want? Why would you lose money for things you don't want???

I very often get the vibe from people in our culture that they buy things just because... I dunno, because they haven't bought anything yet today? I think there's a not-insubstantial percentage of people for whom the idea of not spending money for an entire day would make them feel panicky/anxious.

I'm fascinated by this too.  I agree with your point about a  consumerist mindset.  It also seems that people buy ideas or emotions or something, rather than items.

Consider a car loan: I work with dozens of people who buy new cars every couple years, presumably rolling over their loans.  This seemed silly to me because I didn't understand why someone would pay five figures for heated seats or new rims, when their existing car does 95% of the new one.  But if you only look at payments, you might think it's worth it. (Of course, it isn't)

So really it comes down to the fact that people don't save the capital to buy an asset like a car, so they're always playing this psychological financing game with themselves.

I think this holds true for mortgages as well. There's a feeling it's normal to spend an x% of your income on your mortgage. When your income increases you buy a bigger house. That's just the done thing. You need to reward yourself for all your hard work and what's a better reward than a home so big you can't keep it clean and well maintained on your own?

We've owned the same house for 5 years and our income has increased quite a bit over those years. People often ask if we're planning on moving to a bigger house. We are a childless couple in a 3-bedroom home (we each have a home office for our businesses). Our needs haven't changed, why would we want a bigger home? Thankfully I have quite a vague job description so people outside of my field aren't really aware of my income. When I tell coworkers we're happy where we are and don't want to move I can see from their face they don't believe me. Well, it's fine with me if they think I'm in debt or something :) eventually I'd like to move to a more rural location with maybe a bit of land but I really don't need a 5 bedroom house ever.

OtherJen

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1923 on: December 07, 2019, 11:59:21 AM »
Not from work, just read, but still, a finance tip:

Trouble with spending too much? Make three categories.
1. Needed 2. Wanted 4. Superfluous
and make a budget for each.

Wait! WTF? Budget?

If you need, buy. You cannot not buy if you need, after all. Why a budget? But even more - a budget for things you _don't_ want? Why would you lose money for things you don't want???

I very often get the vibe from people in our culture that they buy things just because... I dunno, because they haven't bought anything yet today? I think there's a not-insubstantial percentage of people for whom the idea of not spending money for an entire day would make them feel panicky/anxious.

I'm fascinated by this too.  I agree with your point about a  consumerist mindset.  It also seems that people buy ideas or emotions or something, rather than items.

Consider a car loan: I work with dozens of people who buy new cars every couple years, presumably rolling over their loans.  This seemed silly to me because I didn't understand why someone would pay five figures for heated seats or new rims, when their existing car does 95% of the new one.  But if you only look at payments, you might think it's worth it. (Of course, it isn't)

So really it comes down to the fact that people don't save the capital to buy an asset like a car, so they're always playing this psychological financing game with themselves.

I think this holds true for mortgages as well. There's a feeling it's normal to spend an x% of your income on your mortgage. When your income increases you buy a bigger house. That's just the done thing. You need to reward yourself for all your hard work and what's a better reward than a home so big you can't keep it clean and well maintained on your own?

We've owned the same house for 5 years and our income has increased quite a bit over those years. People often ask if we're planning on moving to a bigger house. We are a childless couple in a 3-bedroom home (we each have a home office for our businesses). Our needs haven't changed, why would we want a bigger home? Thankfully I have quite a vague job description so people outside of my field aren't really aware of my income. When I tell coworkers we're happy where we are and don't want to move I can see from their face they don't believe me. Well, it's fine with me if they think I'm in debt or something :) eventually I'd like to move to a more rural location with maybe a bit of land but I really don't need a 5 bedroom house ever.

This is very true. When we were first looking at houses as newlyweds in entry-level jobs, people kept telling us to buy as much house as we could possibly afford (even if it was a stretch to make the payments) because it would be easier later when our wages went up. We ignored that advice and bought a 3-bed “starter” house well within our price range. I think people are surprised that we’re still in this house 16 years later, which is crazy because we have no kids and don’t need more space. The mortgage is even more affordable now. Why would I want to give up cash in savings and cash flow every month for something we don’t need?

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1924 on: December 07, 2019, 12:13:14 PM »

This is very true. When we were first looking at houses as newlyweds in entry-level jobs, people kept telling us to buy as much house as we could possibly afford (even if it was a stretch to make the payments) because it would be easier later when our wages went up. We ignored that advice and bought a 3-bed “starter” house well within our price range. I think people are surprised that we’re still in this house 16 years later, which is crazy because we have no kids and don’t need more space. The mortgage is even more affordable now. Why would I want to give up cash in savings and cash flow every month for something we don’t need?

It’s not terrible advice for someone who views a small house as a “starter” house and is likely to move again quickly.  The transaction costs add up, and over time homes get more expensive.  If they actually invested the difference, it would be way better to start small but as discussed here most people are going to spend whatever is left over after their mortgage.  In that case it just reinforces the aspect of forced savings that we have with mortgages

Wrenchturner

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1925 on: December 07, 2019, 12:28:36 PM »

I'm fascinated by this too.  I agree with your point about a  consumerist mindset.  It also seems that people buy ideas or emotions or something, rather than items.

That is certainly true for ads today. The industry has learned that people don't buy stuff, they buy emotions. That is why in car ads you will never see (except maybe the PS) and actual data about the car until the very end for 2 seconds. The rest is all landscape and maybe smiling faces.

Just yesterday I saw an ad by the McD. A mother had lost her child, searched for it etc. She also asked at a McD but you could see the company logo for only 1 second. It only reappeared in the last moment after the happy reunification.
See the trick here?
McD as in McDonald's?  That's a weird ad regardless, but I see the trick.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1926 on: December 07, 2019, 12:32:08 PM »
Not from work, just read, but still, a finance tip:

Trouble with spending too much? Make three categories.
1. Needed 2. Wanted 4. Superfluous
and make a budget for each.

Wait! WTF? Budget?

If you need, buy. You cannot not buy if you need, after all. Why a budget? But even more - a budget for things you _don't_ want? Why would you lose money for things you don't want???

I very often get the vibe from people in our culture that they buy things just because... I dunno, because they haven't bought anything yet today? I think there's a not-insubstantial percentage of people for whom the idea of not spending money for an entire day would make them feel panicky/anxious.

I'm fascinated by this too.  I agree with your point about a  consumerist mindset.  It also seems that people buy ideas or emotions or something, rather than items.

Consider a car loan: I work with dozens of people who buy new cars every couple years, presumably rolling over their loans.  This seemed silly to me because I didn't understand why someone would pay five figures for heated seats or new rims, when their existing car does 95% of the new one.  But if you only look at payments, you might think it's worth it. (Of course, it isn't)

So really it comes down to the fact that people don't save the capital to buy an asset like a car, so they're always playing this psychological financing game with themselves.

I think this holds true for mortgages as well. There's a feeling it's normal to spend an x% of your income on your mortgage. When your income increases you buy a bigger house. That's just the done thing. You need to reward yourself for all your hard work and what's a better reward than a home so big you can't keep it clean and well maintained on your own?

We've owned the same house for 5 years and our income has increased quite a bit over those years. People often ask if we're planning on moving to a bigger house. We are a childless couple in a 3-bedroom home (we each have a home office for our businesses). Our needs haven't changed, why would we want a bigger home? Thankfully I have quite a vague job description so people outside of my field aren't really aware of my income. When I tell coworkers we're happy where we are and don't want to move I can see from their face they don't believe me. Well, it's fine with me if they think I'm in debt or something :) eventually I'd like to move to a more rural location with maybe a bit of land but I really don't need a 5 bedroom house ever.

Having kids seems like the big influence for a larger house.  Those things soak up space like crazy!  At least, if they're allowed to fill the house with toys(more materialism)...  I'm not a huge fan of a large house, just more space to heat and clean.  And humans are too soft and sedentary anyways, we spend too much time indoors doing little.

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1927 on: December 07, 2019, 09:15:04 PM »

This is very true. When we were first looking at houses as newlyweds in entry-level jobs, people kept telling us to buy as much house as we could possibly afford (even if it was a stretch to make the payments) because it would be easier later when our wages went up. We ignored that advice and bought a 3-bed “starter” house well within our price range. I think people are surprised that we’re still in this house 16 years later, which is crazy because we have no kids and don’t need more space. The mortgage is even more affordable now. Why would I want to give up cash in savings and cash flow every month for something we don’t need?

It’s not terrible advice for someone who views a small house as a “starter” house and is likely to move again quickly.  The transaction costs add up, and over time homes get more expensive.  If they actually invested the difference, it would be way better to start small but as discussed here most people are going to spend whatever is left over after their mortgage.  In that case it just reinforces the aspect of forced savings that we have with mortgages

We were getting recommendations to get a mortgage beyond what we could comfortably afford without regular parental help. I don’t think that’s good advice.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1928 on: December 07, 2019, 09:31:45 PM »

This is very true. When we were first looking at houses as newlyweds in entry-level jobs, people kept telling us to buy as much house as we could possibly afford (even if it was a stretch to make the payments) because it would be easier later when our wages went up. We ignored that advice and bought a 3-bed “starter” house well within our price range. I think people are surprised that we’re still in this house 16 years later, which is crazy because we have no kids and don’t need more space. The mortgage is even more affordable now. Why would I want to give up cash in savings and cash flow every month for something we don’t need?

It’s not terrible advice for someone who views a small house as a “starter” house and is likely to move again quickly.  The transaction costs add up, and over time homes get more expensive.  If they actually invested the difference, it would be way better to start small but as discussed here most people are going to spend whatever is left over after their mortgage.  In that case it just reinforces the aspect of forced savings that we have with mortgages

We were getting recommendations to get a mortgage beyond what we could comfortably afford without regular parental help. I don’t think that’s good advice.

You are absolutely right.  It's horrible advice.   

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1929 on: December 07, 2019, 09:52:40 PM »
I remember back when we had just graduated college.  We were pre-approved for a mortgage around 3.5x my starting salary.  Thank heavens that as naive as we were back then, we were smart enough to buy a starter home for just under half that amount.

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1930 on: December 07, 2019, 11:18:30 PM »

This is very true. When we were first looking at houses as newlyweds in entry-level jobs, people kept telling us to buy as much house as we could possibly afford (even if it was a stretch to make the payments) because it would be easier later when our wages went up. We ignored that advice and bought a 3-bed “starter” house well within our price range. I think people are surprised that we’re still in this house 16 years later, which is crazy because we have no kids and don’t need more space. The mortgage is even more affordable now. Why would I want to give up cash in savings and cash flow every month for something we don’t need?

It’s not terrible advice for someone who views a small house as a “starter” house and is likely to move again quickly.  The transaction costs add up, and over time homes get more expensive.  If they actually invested the difference, it would be way better to start small but as discussed here most people are going to spend whatever is left over after their mortgage.  In that case it just reinforces the aspect of forced savings that we have with mortgages

We were getting recommendations to get a mortgage beyond what we could comfortably afford without regular parental help. I don’t think that’s good advice.

You are absolutely right.  It's horrible advice.   

I just had a flashback to my first home purchase, when the Realtor and my parents were pushing me to buy as much house as I could "afford", as in the maximum amount I could get from any lender. Having seen my parents struggle from time to time after over-purchasing on real estate until they obtained a sizable inheritance and a more lucrative line of work, I decided to not slip on the golden handcuffs. In fact, I said something to my Realtor about a fox guarding the henhouse and insisted that she show me dwellings only within my specific price range. It wasn't that I was educated any better than the average person. My position came mostly from hardheadedness and overall tightwaddery, plus a generous helping of Stanley and Danko.

How many people don't have the dumb luck to read Stanley and Danko or to be natural tightwads? Probably most of them.

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1931 on: December 08, 2019, 01:36:26 AM »
I remember back when we had just graduated college.  We were pre-approved for a mortgage around 3.5x my starting salary.  Thank heavens that as naive as we were back then, we were smart enough to buy a starter home for just under half that amount.

Well the house we did buy was 3 times our income then, but lending 3-4 times your income is normal in my country. The average house cost 6,5 times the average income when we bought and close to 8 now. Our place was a great deal even then. Rent and mortgages are both very high compared to income because there's such a massive housing shortage. We did buy a modest townhouse (800 sq ft/ 75 sq  m), but with several bedrooms on purpose, as it was only 25% more expensive than a studio flat and a house this size would give us more options for the future / lower chance of selling after a few years. We rented out a bedroom for a while, we have home offices now, if we ever have a child they could have a bedroom.

Our rent payment before was 650/month excl. bills which was the cheapest apartment we could find, we went on to pay €300 in mortgage a month - and we don't have PMI or sky high property taxes in here (taxes + insurance = <€50/month). The energy bills for this place are a lot lower too. It's mandatory to pay off the mortgage completely but that's no big deal as only a small amount of money  is tied up in this house. I still think this is the single most important financial decision we've ever made. We were always able to save a little bit every month but from the moment we moved we were able to increase our savings rate. Our mortgage payment is now less than 10% of our income and we barely notice the money going out of our account.

Many of our friends have now moved to giant homes in the suburbs and none of them have enough kids (or businesses, or roommates) to fill them. It's one thing to buy a 5 bedroom if you have 6 kids but few have more than 1 and only vague plans for more children. The majority had significant parental help to buy something they don't even need. I think my mother would kick me out if I asked for money to buy a fancy house I can't afford and really don't even need.... But I think some parents also get a kick from bragging about their child who lives in a newbuild in the Fancy Rich Neighbourhood. That's somehow more acceptable than saying 'my kid is self sufficient and lives well within her means'.

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1932 on: December 08, 2019, 01:48:06 AM »

This is very true. When we were first looking at houses as newlyweds in entry-level jobs, people kept telling us to buy as much house as we could possibly afford (even if it was a stretch to make the payments) because it would be easier later when our wages went up. We ignored that advice and bought a 3-bed “starter” house well within our price range. I think people are surprised that we’re still in this house 16 years later, which is crazy because we have no kids and don’t need more space. The mortgage is even more affordable now. Why would I want to give up cash in savings and cash flow every month for something we don’t need?

It’s not terrible advice for someone who views a small house as a “starter” house and is likely to move again quickly.  The transaction costs add up, and over time homes get more expensive.  If they actually invested the difference, it would be way better to start small but as discussed here most people are going to spend whatever is left over after their mortgage.  In that case it just reinforces the aspect of forced savings that we have with mortgages

We were getting recommendations to get a mortgage beyond what we could comfortably afford without regular parental help. I don’t think that’s good advice.

Ok, but I'm talking about advice to buy as much as you can afford, not advice to buy more than you can afford.

Sugaree

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1933 on: December 08, 2019, 05:58:01 AM »
Consider a car loan: I work with dozens of people who buy new cars every couple years, presumably rolling over their loans.  This seemed silly to me because I didn't understand why someone would pay five figures for heated seats or new rims, when their existing car does 95% of the new one.  But if you only look at payments, you might think it's worth it. (Of course, it isn't)

So really it comes down to the fact that people don't save the capital to buy an asset like a car, so they're always playing this psychological financing game with themselves.

I can't tell you how many people I know think that paying off a car loan means that it's time to start shopping for a new car.  I guess that's better than rolling negative equity into a new loan, but come on man.

OtherJen

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1934 on: December 08, 2019, 07:56:30 AM »

This is very true. When we were first looking at houses as newlyweds in entry-level jobs, people kept telling us to buy as much house as we could possibly afford (even if it was a stretch to make the payments) because it would be easier later when our wages went up. We ignored that advice and bought a 3-bed “starter” house well within our price range. I think people are surprised that we’re still in this house 16 years later, which is crazy because we have no kids and don’t need more space. The mortgage is even more affordable now. Why would I want to give up cash in savings and cash flow every month for something we don’t need?

It’s not terrible advice for someone who views a small house as a “starter” house and is likely to move again quickly.  The transaction costs add up, and over time homes get more expensive.  If they actually invested the difference, it would be way better to start small but as discussed here most people are going to spend whatever is left over after their mortgage.  In that case it just reinforces the aspect of forced savings that we have with mortgages

We were getting recommendations to get a mortgage beyond what we could comfortably afford without regular parental help. I don’t think that’s good advice.

Ok, but I'm talking about advice to buy as much as you can afford, not advice to buy more than you can afford.

I still think it’s shitty advice. On paper, sure, we could have (barely, just) afforded a larger home and larger mortgage payments, especially if we’d taken the strongly suggested adjustable rate loan. In reality, any unexpected expense would have sent us running for parental help or credit (more likely), and we would have lost our house a few years later when the bottom fell out of the economy and the house lost 80% of its purchase value, the mortgage rate spiked, and husband lost his job. 

I can’t see any scenario in which advice to go beyond what you can comfortably afford, with the assumption that your finances/the economy will always grow, is not a recipe for disaster. I do accept that like people who went through the Depression, my view of real estate and economic impermanence may be biased.

Dicey

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1935 on: December 08, 2019, 08:33:42 AM »
I guess I need to go hide my $600 dog before everyone shows up with torches and pitchforks.

No one is going to literally murder you for paying for a dog.

But that doesn't mean people can't have opinions about it.

Do I need to follow up my posts with a bazinga or something to indicate that I'm not serious?

If you're regularly being misunderstood by multiple readers, then possibly yes.

As far as I know, it's just been one reader. But I'll start doing that to avoid the vengeful ire.

Edit: added a disclaimer to signature
If your screen name doesn't give them a clue, I'm not sure the disclaimer will either, but kudos to you for being so responsive, @DadJokes.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1936 on: December 08, 2019, 08:34:33 AM »
Our first home purchase was at 200% of annual salary.  We only had one car payment and it was affordable, but we needed to pay close attention to finances.

Our 2nd home was about 150% of annual salary.   Much more affordable!

Our 3rd home was about 80% of annual salary.   We had two car payments and a business loan at the time.  Fast forward 5 years and the car loans and business loans were gone, which made it so affordable we were making 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 mortgage payments a month to pay it off early!  (Wish I had known to invest instead!)

Our 4th house was about 112% of annual income.  (Note use of word income, not salary.  We now had passive income plus salary.)   It's still quite affordable. 

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1937 on: December 08, 2019, 09:29:08 AM »
Our current house was 3x our annual household salary when we bought it and that felt like a bit of a stretch stepping up from the under market rental we had been in. But then I set up the automatic payments and other than a text message each month, I didn’t even notice the mortgage payment going out.

Dicey

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1938 on: December 08, 2019, 09:37:24 AM »
^^That's great, Sword Guy^^, but if you live where housing is more expensive, you just don't have those kind of options. [Dicey waves to ysette9.]

*Sidebar Rant Alert*

Not harshing on you specifically, SG, but comments like this frustrate the shit out of me. When I was starting out, despite having a year's salary in the bank, I could afford nothing in the city where my job was, so I bought a rental in the cheaper place where I grew up. It still cost 3.5x my salary. Eight years later, my income had increased, and I found a deal on a tiny condo that was a short sale during a market dip, so I bought it, moved in, and sold the rental for a very small profit. The tiny condo cost roughly half my take home pay, but I made it work. Four years later, I needed more space, so I sold it for more than double what I paid and bought something that cost about 5-6x my salary. It was bigger, so I had space for a roommate and I made it work once again.

When DH and I got married, we each had our own homes and were happily planning on living in one and renting the other. Until his dad died, and we realized his mom had ALZ. Our houses were two story with no downstairs bedrooms. I retired, we sold both houses and bought a suitable house on a short sale. Here's the kicker: the new house cost 10x DH's salary. Fortunately, our houses had appreciated so much that we were able to buy the new house with no mortgage.

The point is that if you're frugal (i.e. mustachian), and you want to own property, you can still figure out a way, even in a HCOLA. You may have to "overspend", but you can do it. It's just a lot harder than it is in cheaper places with a plethora of affordable options.
/End sidebar rant


SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1939 on: December 08, 2019, 10:28:16 AM »
^^That's great, Sword Guy^^, but if you live where housing is more expensive, you just don't have those kind of options. [Dicey waves to ysette9.]

*Sidebar Rant Alert*

Not harshing on you specifically, SG, but comments like this frustrate the shit out of me. When I was starting out, despite having a year's salary in the bank, I could afford nothing in the city where my job was, so I bought a rental in the cheaper place where I grew up. It still cost 3.5x my salary. Eight years later, my income had increased, and I found a deal on a tiny condo that was a short sale during a market dip, so I bought it, moved in, and sold the rental for a very small profit. The tiny condo cost roughly half my take home pay, but I made it work. Four years later, I needed more space, so I sold it for more than double what I paid and bought something that cost about 5-6x my salary. It was bigger, so I had space for a roommate and I made it work once again.

When DH and I got married, we each had our own homes and were happily planning on living in one and renting the other. Until his dad died, and we realized his mom had ALZ. Our houses were two story with no downstairs bedrooms. I retired, we sold both houses and bought a suitable house on a short sale. Here's the kicker: the new house cost 10x DH's salary. Fortunately, our houses had appreciated so much that we were able to buy the new house with no mortgage.

The point is that if you're frugal (i.e. mustachian), and you want to own property, you can still figure out a way, even in a HCOLA. You may have to "overspend", but you can do it. It's just a lot harder than it is in cheaper places with a plethora of affordable options.
/End sidebar rant

All very good points, @Dicey.   

House #2, for example, was in Atlanta less than a mile outside the perimeter interstate.   I haven't always been in smaller, LCOL towns.  :)

A huge percentage of the population lives in areas that do not have horribly expensive housing.   And for them, getting a much more affordable house is clearly an option.   

But I have to say, I hear how horrible home prices are in various parts of the country.  Then I go on Zillow and do a search of homes sold in the last 2 years and hey! presto!   I find things like this:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/recently_sold/house,condo,apartment_duplex,townhouse_type/1-_beds/1.0-_baths/?searchQueryState={%22pagination%22:{},%22mapBounds%22:{%22west%22:-122.7087176191406,%22east%22:-121.98087338085935,%22south%22:47.37671523873406,%22north%22:47.84855793774056},%22isMapVisible%22:true,%22filterState%22:{%22isRecentlySold%22:{%22value%22:true},%22isForSaleByAgent%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isForSaleByOwner%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isNewConstruction%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isComingSoon%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isAuction%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isForSaleForeclosure%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isPreMarketForeclosure%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isPreMarketPreForeclosure%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isMakeMeMove%22:{%22value%22:false},%22price%22:{%22max%22:200000,%22min%22:50000},%22monthlyPayment%22:{%22max%22:745,%22min%22:186},%22isLotLand%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isManufactured%22:{%22value%22:false},%22beds%22:{%22min%22:1},%22baths%22:{%22min%22:1},%22doz%22:{%22value%22:%2224m%22}},%22isListVisible%22:true}


1813 homes/apartments/townhomes sold in the last two years in the Seattle, WA area shown on the map for a price between $50k and $200k.   I picked $50k as the lower boundary because quite a few goobers trying to rent a place list it for sale for the monthly rental price so that filters them out.

I look at photos of some of the places and quite a few of them look nice.   Toss in another $25k to $50k for renovations if needed and it's still a heck of a lot lower than the real estate prices I see quoted by the woe is me crowd.

Clearly, quite a few folks found a way to purchase affordable housing in the Seattle area.   Maybe everyone can't do it, but that's no reason not to be one of those who do!






Dicey

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1940 on: December 08, 2019, 11:09:16 AM »
^^That's great, Sword Guy^^, but if you live where housing is more expensive, you just don't have those kind of options. [Dicey waves to ysette9.]

*Sidebar Rant Alert*

Not harshing on you specifically, SG, but comments like this frustrate the shit out of me. When I was starting out, despite having a year's salary in the bank, I could afford nothing in the city where my job was, so I bought a rental in the cheaper place where I grew up. It still cost 3.5x my salary. Eight years later, my income had increased, and I found a deal on a tiny condo that was a short sale during a market dip, so I bought it, moved in, and sold the rental for a very small profit. The tiny condo cost roughly half my take home pay, but I made it work. Four years later, I needed more space, so I sold it for more than double what I paid and bought something that cost about 5-6x my salary. It was bigger, so I had space for a roommate and I made it work once again.

When DH and I got married, we each had our own homes and were happily planning on living in one and renting the other. Until his dad died, and we realized his mom had ALZ. Our houses were two story with no downstairs bedrooms. I retired, we sold both houses and bought a suitable house on a short sale. Here's the kicker: the new house cost 10x DH's salary. Fortunately, our houses had appreciated so much that we were able to buy the new house with no mortgage.

The point is that if you're frugal (i.e. mustachian), and you want to own property, you can still figure out a way, even in a HCOLA. You may have to "overspend", but you can do it. It's just a lot harder than it is in cheaper places with a plethora of affordable options.
/End sidebar rant

All very good points, @Dicey.   

House #2, for example, was in Atlanta less than a mile outside the perimeter interstate.   I haven't always been in smaller, LCOL towns.  :)

A huge percentage of the population lives in areas that do not have horribly expensive housing.   And for them, getting a much more affordable house is clearly an option.   

But I have to say, I hear how horrible home prices are in various parts of the country.  Then I go on Zillow and do a search of homes sold in the last 2 years and hey! presto!   I find things like this:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/recently_sold/house,condo,apartment_duplex,townhouse_type/1-_beds/1.0-_baths/?searchQueryState={%22pagination%22:{},%22mapBounds%22:{%22west%22:-122.7087176191406,%22east%22:-121.98087338085935,%22south%22:47.37671523873406,%22north%22:47.84855793774056},%22isMapVisible%22:true,%22filterState%22:{%22isRecentlySold%22:{%22value%22:true},%22isForSaleByAgent%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isForSaleByOwner%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isNewConstruction%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isComingSoon%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isAuction%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isForSaleForeclosure%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isPreMarketForeclosure%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isPreMarketPreForeclosure%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isMakeMeMove%22:{%22value%22:false},%22price%22:{%22max%22:200000,%22min%22:50000},%22monthlyPayment%22:{%22max%22:745,%22min%22:186},%22isLotLand%22:{%22value%22:false},%22isManufactured%22:{%22value%22:false},%22beds%22:{%22min%22:1},%22baths%22:{%22min%22:1},%22doz%22:{%22value%22:%2224m%22}},%22isListVisible%22:true}


1813 homes/apartments/townhomes sold in the last two years in the Seattle, WA area shown on the map for a price between $50k and $200k.   I picked $50k as the lower boundary because quite a few goobers trying to rent a place list it for sale for the monthly rental price so that filters them out.

I look at photos of some of the places and quite a few of them look nice.   Toss in another $25k to $50k for renovations if needed and it's still a heck of a lot lower than the real estate prices I see quoted by the woe is me crowd.

Clearly, quite a few folks found a way to purchase affordable housing in the Seattle area.   Maybe everyone can't do it, but that's no reason not to be one of those who do!
In our experience, often things that show up on Zillow are not sales at all. They're other transactions, such as people setting up trusts, getting reverse mortgages, inheriting property, inside deals or anything else requiring a title change. Don't move to Seattle expecting to find deals like this to fall into your lap. And typically, renovations, including materials, are more expensive in HCOLAs, so "tossing" $25k--$50k is hilarious, as is the assumption that people have that much left after getting into the property.

We looked at a "cheap" house last weekend for "only" $430k. The previous owners had previously done work to shore up the house and then gotten old and done nothing else to maintain it, except for getting suckered into putting solar on the old roof, sigh. Interestingly, at some point they covered most of the concrete slab with plywood and installed carpet over it. They most likely did this to deal with foundation cracking. The carpet had been removed, but the cat pee smell in the plywood persisted. Walls were cracked in every direction. There were asbestos tiles visible in some bedrooms. The bathroom was original. There was probably asbestos in the walls and surely there was lead in the paint. The roof and gutters were shot. There were no appliances. The laundry sink in the garage had leaked for years and the studs in the walls around it were rotted. It was a probate sale, cash only. They got seven offers in two and a half days, at least one for over asking. Sure, if you had cash, you could buy for "under market", but you couldn't live in it, nor could you fix it for $25k-$50k, nor could you change the fact that it's in a marginal neighborhood that backs up to a busy road that's across from the back of a busy shopping center. Oh, and the schools are crap, too. But hey, it looked okay from the picture of the front of the house, which is all you'll see when you do a future Zillow search. Well, that and a "below market" selling price.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1941 on: December 08, 2019, 11:56:57 AM »

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1208-Broadway-Ave-Bremerton-WA-98337/23425558_zpid/

This one appears to have been put up for actual sale and sold last month.  (Hint: they don't bother to put up photos of the home interior for an inheritance or family gift.)   The photos show a habitable condition though, of course, they are selective.  It definitely needs work.  FYI, I put $7k to $25k into my properties, plus sweat equity.   So $25k to $50k is not an unreasonable price for someone willing to do similar work. 

Someone who is renting in the area and looking for a deal could purchase the house and fix it up on weekends and evenings whilst remaining in their apartment.   The extra costs, possibly even including breaking a lease early, would still pale in comparison to buying a $500k house. 

Obviously, other houses in bad shape would cost ever so much more but I walk away from them.

Here's one that appears to be in much better condition and also appears to have been an actual sale last month:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1917-2nd-Ave-W-Bremerton-WA-98312/23444824_zpid/


Unless a physical inspection showed much bigger problems that the photo selection is hiding, $25k to $50k should be God's plenty to fix that up if you do much of the work yourself.   

Many people in my area don't think you can buy nice houses for what I buy them for, either.   They think prices are much higher.   The reason is their selection criteria and their house hunting methods.



Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1942 on: December 08, 2019, 12:30:32 PM »
I just did a quick search on my country's alternative to zillow and it looks like there's a catch to basically all extremely cheap homes. Aside from all being in really remote areas, mahy are vacation homes that you can't legally live in for more than 6 months a year and quite a few apartments are in senior living facilities with extremely high monthly HOA dues and age limits. Other homes are just in a terrible state and require way more than 25k and a bit of sweat.

(If you're curious: all houses for sale in my country €50k-€125k:  https://www.funda.nl/koop/heel-nederland/0-125000/woonhuis/ #1 in Klazienaveen is a vacation home and not legal to live in fulltime #3 in Oosterhout is actually a really sweet deal and fairly good location, close to the city, but the park itself is notorious, and comes with park fees, ground rent and you can't get a mortgage on a trailer, #4 Veendam is in an area with frequent earthquakes, etc etc etc. There's a reason why no one wants them when they're practically given away.

I'm sure if you look really well you'll find a good deal sometimes and being a cash buyer and experienced at DIY really helps, but my mother always taught me that if something looks too good to be true.... It usually is.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1943 on: December 08, 2019, 12:43:21 PM »
Why are you harping in Washington SG?  Where we are from people move to WA for its relative affordability

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1944 on: December 08, 2019, 02:20:07 PM »
In 99% there is no such thing as "under-market", as there is no such thing as a free meal.
With hundreds of people looking for "a deal" you need to be really lucky to finf one yourself.

At least that is what people who do their (scientific) job on that topic say.

ysette9

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1945 on: December 08, 2019, 02:58:31 PM »
Why are you harping in Washington SG?  Where we are from people move to WA for its relative affordability
Yeah, I’m confused what is being argued here and why WA. Dicey and I are in the Bay Area, and yes, people from here move to Seattle for more affordable housing. I’m actually surprised at something that was listed for $400s and was a house. On my side of the bay it is hard to find a tear down for under $1M.

But that is neither here nor there. Real estate is very local, as we all know. Each area has pros and cons and we all choose based on our particular mix of values. So I just don’t think comparisons are that helpful between different areas of the country when it comes to housing costs. The thing that is comparable is the idea of buying less than you can absolutely afford to buy. Whether that is 0.8x or 4x your salary is a different matter.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1946 on: December 08, 2019, 03:27:54 PM »
I just picked Seattle because I've seen many comments in the press and from people in the area about how high the property costs are.   

I didn't pick NYC or San Francisco because those are way more expensive than most areas in the country.

As for "most people" can't do it, most people don't try.    It takes work, knowledge and time.   Luck just makes that happen faster.
As I pointed out, over 1800 people in the last year bought living quarters for less than $200k in the Seattle area.  Some had to spend money to fix them up right away, others could have waited awhile.

You only need one house.   :)    Seems to me that the potential to save $200k to $500k on one's living quarters would be worth a fair bit of effort.   


TomTX

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1947 on: December 08, 2019, 03:52:24 PM »
#1 in Klazienaveen is a vacation home and not legal to live in fulltime

Could you buy two "vacation homes" and alternate using each of them for 6 months? What about renting them out when you're not living there? Or finding another family who wants to alternate between two "vacation homes" and you just swap with them twice a year.

Cassie

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1948 on: December 08, 2019, 05:37:13 PM »
40 years ago our first home was a fixer upper but livable. It was double our income and we had 2 kids with a third on the way. If houses had been more money we would have kept renting.  Sometimes people can’t afford to buy.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work 2
« Reply #1949 on: December 08, 2019, 06:03:30 PM »
#1 in Klazienaveen is a vacation home and not legal to live in fulltime

Could you buy two "vacation homes" and alternate using each of them for 6 months? What about renting them out when you're not living there? Or finding another family who wants to alternate between two "vacation homes" and you just swap with them twice a year.

Very clever!